How To Call And Rattle Blacktail Bucks With Tom Ryle

Rattling for blacktail isn’t magic and it isn’t random. It’s a story you’re telling in the woods, and the buck decides whether he believes it.

We’re joined again by Tom Ryle and Kelly Riordan for a deep, practical breakdown of blacktail deer calling and rattling, from first principles to field-ready sequences. We start with the why: bucks fight over breeding rights, but a lot of the deer that respond are coming in out of curiosity, sizing up the scene, or looking for an opening. From there, we lay out a clear rut timeline you can actually plan around, including the long seasonal build after velvet-off, the more aggressive late-October window, peak breeding behavior, and why rattling can still shine in December when does cycle again and tired bucks still can’t ignore opportunity.

Then we get tactical. Tom walks through how he layers sounds the way real deer interactions build: soft doe bleats, natural movement in the brush, subtle grunts, and only then escalating into antlers. We talk duration, patience, and the real risk of getting busted when you go too long or get too aggressive. We also get into gear choices like shed antlers versus rattle bags in wet weather, how to tune grunt calls for a softer blacktail tone, and a simple cold-weather trick to help prevent reeds from freezing.

We close with setup and strategy: wind, topography, expecting the downwind circle, and how a partner can call while the shooter waits where the buck wants to verify the sound. If you want to call in blacktail more consistently, this is the playbook to build from. Subscribe, share this with a hunting partner, and leave a review so more blacktail hunters can find the show.

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Transcript

Welcome And What Rattling Means

SPEAKER_07 0:00

Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast. I'm Aaron. And I'm Dave. Okay, we're here once again with Tom Ryle and Kelly Reardon, and we are going to talk about calling and rattling Blacktail. Start off with some basic questions because I think we have listeners who've been hunting for a long time. We have listeners who are just getting started in hunting, and we want to make sure that we answer the questions that a beginner might not understand. In fact, we were talking about doing a definitions episode because we'll mention Skidder Roads, and people have no idea what that is. What's reprod? Yeah, what's reprod? So we'll get into talking about rattling here. And if you after the episode, if you want some follow-up information, there will be links down below in the description. Check those out, read some of those articles. Good stuff. But this is probably one that you're going to listen to twice. And because you're going to listen to it in your car, and then you're going to get home and sit down with your notebook, I'm sure. With this one. Real quick. So why are bucks fighting? And how does this play into using rattling as a tactic?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, so just like any antlered game species, there's a

Why Bucks Fight And Spectate

SPEAKER_01 1:12

mating season and there's a pecking orders order associated with that. And so each year that a male of the species progresses, they're getting larger and larger antlers. And in horned animals, they just keep growing. But as far as why they fight, they fight over breeding rights for the local does in their home range and sometimes the adjacent home range.

SPEAKER_07 1:38

So is it certain bucks that are typically the ones who are going at it? Or does everybody jump into the fray here going on? And I think about this because I had a couple of very big dominant bucks on a particular set, and I didn't catch them fighting. I found evidence. I mean, this the skid of road that I was walking in on completely torn up, tufts of fur lane everywhere. They did some battling in there. But I had, I would say, at least three mature, and when I say mature, four and a half year old and older bucks, one was just a giant fork it horn. I don't know if he would now would he be the one fighting, or would it be the multi-point? Are they looking at each other and deciding, okay, you're the guy I need to fight?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

What's well usually I think in a situation like that, you're talking about a breeding age or older age class animal.

SPEAKER_05 2:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

But there's a lot of nuance to this, right? Like one buck that I rattled in, and rattling is basically emulating two bucks fighting.

SPEAKER_06 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

So rattling refers to rattling together two antlers. One buck that I rattled in, I literally thought it was an elk just that got spooked because I hear all this crashing and commotion. It's getting close to the cross. The freight train coming in. Freight train. Yeah. And it was just a nice, maybe a 12-inch-ish wide and tall fork that came in, stopped right in my shooting lane, and I shot him. My whole hunt was 15 minutes on that. But was that buck coming in to fight? No. That buck was coming in to see who was fighting. Okay. So just like in the elk breeding dynamic where you have satellite bulls hovering around the herd trying to peel a cow or two off from the herd if they get distracted with another herd bull that wants to take over. In the blacktail woods, you have these dominance battles. Yeah. And typically it's an older age class deer that another buck has intruded into their space or is trying to basically tell them to take a hike, I'm gonna breed this doe. And when one doesn't back down and they go through a number of behavioral postures, they put their ears back, they bristle up their fur, they do some stiff-legged walking. If those initial body language tactics don't work, oftentimes it goes to blows and they come together and we're throwing hands. Yeah, and then yeah, exactly. That's what happens.

SPEAKER_07 4:06

We're throwing hooves.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

It's kind of like a bar fight, honestly. Yeah, it's kind of that same buildup, even. Someone looks at somebody the wrong way, the guy's like, Yeah, you want to go outside? Yeah, okay. And then people start backing up, clearing away, and pretty soon there's a fight, and everyone wants to watch that fight.

SPEAKER_07 4:22

So But there's the curiosity will bring him in.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Sure. Yeah, there's the curiosity. The first buck, I think I not the first buck I rattled in. The first white tail I rattled in was a forkhorn that I watched turn 90 degrees, and I rattled thinking I want to see what he does. He was probably 120 yards away, and he covered that, he took a left turn and came straight at me in seconds. He was full tilt coming, and he was looking around. He knew where the sound was coming from, and of course I'm ensure he didn't see me, but it's like they're coming to see what's going on, and it's the breeding ritual, like the instinct to breed is what's driving all this behavior. So even a subordinate buck is gonna want to be part of the action. Yeah, gonna the testosterone, they can't turn it off, so they're gonna be there or want to be there.

SPEAKER_07 5:13

Is there usually a doe hanging out close by when these, or is it can it just be two bucks that happen upon each other?

SPEAKER_01 5:19

You know, I don't know that that's a yes or no, but typically it's over a doe that's in in that period of time, that 72 hours where they're ready to breed.

SPEAKER_07 5:28

Okay, so the standing S just.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah. Yeah. So I photographed a mature four by four buck. I have a picture of him somewhere here, in an urban setting. A buddy of mine said, Oh my gosh, you got to see this buck. I grabbed my camera, jump in the truck, I run down there because I just want a pictures, and this doe was walking, squatting, peeing, take three steps, walk, squat, pee. And he mounted her, and that was like before early rifle. That was mid-October. And I watched him mount that doe two or three times in the next hour. Earliest I've ever seen, witnessed with my own eyes, actual breeding behavior. And I followed that deer around with my camera for a while, and it was just crazy to watch that. Now, the other bucks that were there, there were some few bucks that were circling, and it was just like I described, where they're running over here, then they run over there, and they're just watching what's going on. And I think they're some of those bucks might be they're not going to take on that dominant buck. Yeah. But they're gonna pay attention to what's happening, maybe for the opportunity to try to breed.

SPEAKER_07 6:35

So when you're saying this, and I'm thinking about this because I've noticed with using sense, all synthetic, but when I first do drags or first put out the sense, two out of the three years, I've that night gotten a non-dominant buck immediately in that set. Yeah. Like, yep. So I'm gonna just be opportunistic. Maybe I'll get lucky here, maybe not. But they come in, start looking around, checking things out, and then if nothing happens, or I and I never see them again right after that.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah, I think it's that as humans, we tend to use our rational brains.

SPEAKER_06 7:15

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

But I think these animals, they're driven by hormones. And there's an instinctual like we raised baby chicks this spring, and I'd never raised baby chicks before. But when you watch a two-week-old chick start dusting, like no one taught that chick how to dust, but chickens dust, birds dust, turkeys dust. It's what they do, it's instinctual. And I think with when it comes to deer behavior or elk behavior or whatever, yeah, there's I don't know, just that instinct to be part of it, to go and investigate it, to hear you hear those sounds, their nose is amazing. So they're picking up on things that that we don't see, and they're just operating on an instinct. Yeah, but I think most of the bucks that I and I've said this a lot, most of the bucks that I actually rattle in are not big mature bucks. I have rattled them into where I'm seeing them, yeah, circle. But I've I've only rattled a couple in where they actually come into a shooting lane and are at imminent danger of being arrowed. But most of the bucks are I would say between the two and a half and three and a half year old deer. And and I look at them as like the high school football players, the tough guys. They want to be loud, they want to attract the girls, but you know, push comes a shove, are they gonna fight? Probably not.

SPEAKER_07 8:34

Yeah. Okay. That's a good way to look at it.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

So no offense to anyone. I'm just saying, if you're trying to paint a mental picture and try to, you know, there's a machismo factor at play here.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Like do you work out?

SPEAKER_07 8:48

Yeah, so when they're fighting, yeah, or actually, when are they fighting? Is it like when are they starting with this? So when is this an effective tactic for when they're starting? Because I've seen evidence. Usually when I see evidence, it's in between, I would say, and here in Washington State, that it's like early November is when I've seen through modern season, late modern. So two and a half weeks into November, yeah, is when I tend to see the evidence, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah. And that tracks. So people say, and I've written about this too and talked about it a bunch, but like people say, when does the rut start? And when we talk about the rut, we're talking about the mating season. Yeah, it truly is a season. It's not it is an event. Like peak breeding is an event. There are phases of the rut. But the rut is to me, it begins the minute that velvet comes off the antlers.

SPEAKER_05 9:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Because that animal is now changing. Yeah, the length of daylight hitting the back of the eyeball is triggering hormone increase. You know, it's done, they're done growing their headgear. The sh velvet comes off. Now it's about figuring out what's on top of my head, removing that velvet, strengthening my neck, bring just getting my aggression out because I've got this newfound testosterone. I don't know what to do with. Does aren't ready to breed, they're not even close. And then we're talking

Rut Phases And Best Rattling Dates

SPEAKER_01 10:15

September 1st, uh-huh. Right? So I always say, as a rule of thumb, I don't rattle. So again, every state's different with their dates, but let's just talk about calendar dates, not hunting seasons. Yeah. So for me, mid-October, and again, I'm going now off new evidence that I have that's the best evidence I've ever seen, which is a mature buck actually mounting a dough multiple times during daylight hours near a Starbucks. That happened. I was there. So I date I log that. Was it the coffee? Yeah. Catino. What what what yeah, what drink did they order? I don't know. But for me, it's like I've always said mid- So what you're saying is hunt by Starbucks.

SPEAKER_04 10:53

Yeah. Sounds like you had a Red Bull.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, something it'll give you wings. Yeah. You guys are stay on track. Okay. So mid-October is my okay. Now I can start thinking about that pre-breeding pecking order stage. And that's so that's happening from the time that velvet comes off September 1 all the way through the first part of October. They're quietly figuring out who's who in the pecking order. Yeah. We're not going to see that. We're not going to see loud, you know, we're not going to see tore up ground. We're not going to, I mean, you might see some of that. There's no absolutes here, right? But generalities, they're going to know who's who getting close to the end of October, into that early pre-rut. Okay. Mid to late October. However, not everyone's going to be convinced of where they are on the totem pole, right?

SPEAKER_06 11:41

Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

I was told I'm down here, and Bruce the Buck says he's up here. I still think I can take him.

SPEAKER_06 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

And so they kind of move into that end of October with a grudge about where they've been placed in the pecking order. And this is my interpretation of this, right? So the illusion that I create when I rattle is that essentially that there is a buck that is not happy with the situation. Another buck has breeding rights in this particular area, and he's going to challenge that buck.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Okay. I don't want to get too far into the tactics, but to your question, it's kind of that late mid to late October on timing.

SPEAKER_06 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

And then peak breeding, from what I've found in all the years I've been tracking this, is like November 12th to 14th, is 80%, 85% of those does are going to get bred right in that week.

SPEAKER_07 12:37

What we've referred to or Dave refers to is the first rut.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, the primary peak breeding rut. Okay. So this is hard to do with a podcast, right? Because we don't have slides, we don't have visuals. So as you get into that, people talk about the October lull, is something that you hear about more in the whitetail community, but sometimes people go into their early, and I say early deer season, the general modern deer season here in Washington is that mid-October time frame. And there's a lot of things happening in that time frame. Fall is starting, we've got leaves coming down, we've got colder nights, we've got rain, we've got dietary changes, we have hormone increases. So there's a lot of changes. And then we've got this massive amount of human intrusion into public lands and people hitting the landscape, deer hunting. And so bucks get smart to that. They're especially the older age class bucks, they've seen this rodeo before.

SPEAKER_06 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Right? The smaller spikes and forks are still out there in the clear cut, going, What's going on? So that there's hunting pressure that enters the scene. All of these things change deer behavior, but the rut, this breeding phase, it's still this breeding cycle, it's still gonna happen. They're just gonna tuck away from public view. And yeah, it's I don't know where you want to take this, but we can go a lot of different directions from here.

SPEAKER_07 14:01

Okay. When does that end for you for rattling? End of December. End of December. So you'll go through multiple rounds of the doughs being an asterisk rutting. They will they'll still be trying to set a dominant dominance thing or figuring out pecking order or something along those lines.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah, so peak breeding, you have the bulk of the doughs, and again, this is in any given area, and this rut will happen the same time every year in these areas based on the photo period and length of daylight that we have. So that primary breeding phase or peak rut will happen, and then those bucks, after they've bred, they're gonna still seek out receptive doughs, and they'll keep doing that because the hormones are still there, the urge to breed is still there, but the available does to breed starts to drop and wane. And then you've got yearling doughs that may have not come into estrus in that peak mid-November time frame that then start coming into estrus mid-December, 28, 28 days later-ish, from when the second rut is when you've got this wave of does that weren't bred that come back into estrus and the yearlings who are coming in for the first time for the first time, and that's co it's corresponding around mid-December. Okay. And I've rattled, actually rattled in more deer to bow range in December than I have, aside from maybe October, and I've never tracked the two. But I do better rattling end of October, first week of November, and then the end of December, last two weeks of December.

SPEAKER_06 15:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

So, Tom, I like the fact that you're kind of going over the rut here. I think that it's probably the most misunderstood part of the deer life. Everybody thinks they're an expert on it. Yeah. And we have so many myths out there, but it's based on the cold, or it's it's one week, or whatever. There's only one rut. And the fact that you're sitting here and I've said it at my seminars, and absolutely everything you said, I hundred percent agree. There's multiple ruts. And I let me that let me ask you what's your favorite part of this as far as are you looking for that first rut, or are you looking for the second rut? Which would you rather hunt?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

So it's interesting. I get more excitement. This is kind of an interesting question because I actually love visualizing what's going to happen at the end of October, early November.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

And then when that doesn't transpire, then I get super excited about December. And I guess what I'm saying is I love both of those time periods, but I guess I my anticipation going into the buildup, going into the season, I'm always hoping that this is the year I'm gonna rattle in a giant at the end of October, that last week going into Halloween. And when it doesn't happen, or I rattle in a small buck, don't shoot it, whatever. Then I'm like, okay, now I gotta switch tactics because it's a different environment when you get into December. Sometimes it's snowing, sometimes it's cold, sometimes it's not. And then there's changes to the to those places, those physical places. Sometimes there's a clear cut that goes in between the early season and late season. Now I gotta adjust or something like that. But I guess I like them both. But I if I had to hang my hat on or look at my tags, I think I've probably tagged more deer in December. What about you, Kelly?

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yeah, I like the early rut for my for me, the the area that I have. I was talking earlier about the saddle that I sit in. I've been in this one spot for so many years. And by the time I sit in that stand for the first time, I pretty much know what's in the area. If it's slow, I'm you know, Tom has showed me the his rattling sequences, I'll use those. But yeah, I like the early rut. I tend to see more action in my area last few days of October.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

Okay. And you're both archery.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I did buy a muzzle loader this last year.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Actually, I'm trying to talk them into rifle.

SPEAKER_04 18:03

I'm just gonna say, was that for decoration purposes?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Thus far, it has been. I haven't shot it yet, but I'm actually excited about it. I to me it's like, wow, there's all this stuff I gotta go learn, and I love to learn.

SPEAKER_07 18:16

So there's yeah, I've got to learn how to use my muzzle loader as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 18:20

I actually have someone who said he's willing to teach me from the muzzle loader association.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_07 18:25

Yeah, never shot it. Chris has borrowed it the last two years.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Owned it for three years or two years?

SPEAKER_07 18:31

I've only had a couple of years now, but Chris has blew up on him and he borrowed it. In fact, he's still got it from last season, so I need to get it back from him and uh hello, Chris. Yeah, before anything bad happens. But yeah, I it's one of those I thought, oh, I, you know, my whole issue with that is I don't have a late muzzle loader season, except for in a little sliver of an area. And yeah, I just haven't really explored it all that much. Because I still I'm still wanting my I want a big buck with my pistol. Yeah. That's really cool with that. So as you were talking about this, some questions that popped in my mind. So thinking about Dave with the scent-based strategy and creating that illusion that there's another a new buck in the area, a new dominant buck. Is there an aspect of with the rattling that you're creating or helping with the illusion, or it might help with the illusion? And there might not, that it might be anecdotal evidence, but that there's a new buck in the area that's trying to show some dominance. Especially, I would think if you introduced used buck urine, yeah, it might might spur some more of a response from the other dominant bucks. Now, have you ever tried to use it in conjunction with buck urine to create that illusion?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Or yeah, we have some new laws in Washington, obviously, around synthetics. With the synthetics, synthetics and stuff. But prior to that law going into effect in the past, what I've done is I've used preorbital gland scent from bucks that I've harvested, cut the forehead patch of fur out. There's a gland up in there that they'll rub on trees, and then tarsal glands, of course, that they urinate over and do rub urination, and that leaves their unique calling card on the ground, so to speak. And I've actually got some pretty cool trail cam videos, even in daytime, of mature bucks doing that rub urination. And I've seen bucks come and visit those spots. So that along with licking branches, I've got video of bucks stopping, does stopping, and putting saliva on licking branches from trail cameras, and all of those things have informed my scent strategy, and I use that and have used that a lot in the past in conjunction with calling. So it is about creating an illusion. And just like in elk hunting, I don't know why more people don't apply maybe what they learn in elk hunting, calling, because a lot of people are pretty savvy at doing that these days, and then they get into to deer calling and they're almost paralyzed. It's the same psychology. You're trying to create an illusion. Yeah, you're trying to create a scenario. And so, first and foremost, you have to think about what time of year is it, what rate phase of the rut are we in? What is the composition of the deer herd that I'm hunting? You know, have you picked up five different bucks on your trail camera or only two? Like that's gonna change maybe how I approach it. If there's more competition, I'm probably gonna be more aggressive in my calling. If there's less competition, I'm probably gonna be a little gentler, hoping to not scare off a deer that might not be confident to come into a the sound of a come in and fight. Yeah. Yeah. But creating that illusion that another buck has come in, especially. Especially during so after peak breeding, a lot of bucks will go in search

Scent And Sound Creating A Buck Rival

SPEAKER_01 22:05

of does and they'll cover some ground. A buddy of mine out here, actually your neck of the woods, Kelly. He had a buck on camera with a very unique drop time. And two days later, that buck showed up three miles away. Oh on a different camera. Yeah. Nose to the ground running the whole time. Yeah. And Scott Haugen told me a couple stories of that of bucks like that. One was seven miles apart in Oregon. Now, that's a long ways. I'm not seeing that, but I'm also not trying to track that either. But I do know that when a new buck enters a new home range of another mature buck, that doesn't usually go well. It's usually sorted out in the middle of the night while we're sleeping.

SPEAKER_06 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

But in a hunting scenario, I try to call a rattle or call. I can call anytime, but generally I like to again go into the situation knowing what I'm working with. Yeah. I don't just go in and start banging on antlers and blowing on deer calls. I try to think about okay, in this spot I'm going to be more aggressive, or this spot I'm going to be, I'm not going to rattle here. I'm only going to do doe bleats because I'm trying to be more careful or whatever it might be. It's like fishing, honestly. I'm using different tactics based on the water I'm trying to cover. Yeah. In this case. But that's the general gist of it. And I usually don't go into it all head. I go into it slowly because I don't know where the deer are. I have ideas of where bedding areas are or where travel corridors are. But it's during the rut, too, right? Those rut phases, deer can be anywhere, anytime. And you don't want to take all this time to get out to your spot and just start banging on antlers and spook off the buck you were trying to kill.

SPEAKER_07 23:48

Yeah. Okay. So let's get into the meat of this. How you're rattling and at certain times. And I kind of looked over some of the things you wrote about and like how long are you rattling and different parts of the season. Because I know you change things up as things go along. So what let's just cover all of that.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Okay. So late October, I'll just call it late October. Let's generalize generalize. Late October, I'm going to call pre-rut. First second week of October, I'm going to call peak breeding. And then October, November. November. I'm sorry, November. Sorry. And then mid-December on, I'm just going to call second rut, just to keep this simple for listeners because I have more visuals that break this down even further. But links down below. Yeah. So I'm going to usually be more aggressive at the end of October leading into November. And when I say more aggressive, I'm going to start slow, but I'm going to actually start with a doe bleat. Because again, psychology here, a buck is trying to find a doe to breed. So why would I just go right in with a big fight? I'm going to start soft. I'm going to come in slow play it a little bit. A couple of soft doe bleeds. I'm going to wait 10,

Building A Layered Calling Sequence

SPEAKER_01 25:05

15, 20 minutes, maybe, depending on wind, all these other factors. Is it raining? Is it a cool, crisp morning? The deer probably up and moving a lot. All those things are going to come into play. So there's no like, this isn't write this down and this is going to work for you. It's just a general description. So I start with doe bleeds, two or three, whatever, wait, and then I'm going to probably, if I'm on the ground, instead of rattle, I'm actually going to use my antlers and pound them into the ground or hit brush, make some noise, deer movement noise.

SPEAKER_07 25:42

Okay. Is the and that's a question that I had. When you're pounding them into the ground, is that to mimic the stomping noise that they're making? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

That in general deer movement. Okay. So I'm going to I'm going to layer the audio portion of this, right? So there's going to be a soft doe bleed. Maybe that gets a deer to look. Then I'm going to add in 15, 20 minutes later, some vegetation movement and maybe break a stick or two. Then I'm going to wait. And then I'm going to do two or three soft grunts. And I'm going to wait a little longer, 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes. So if you've ever noticed deer, like even a deer in your yard, if they hear something and they turn and lock on it, they'll stand there for 15 minutes and not move. And they're fine with it. They don't have anywhere to be. So I try to be really, really patient with calling.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

It's not like I'm going to throw six casts and then leave. I don't I've got more lures that I need to throw out there. So I create the illusion that there's a dough here. There's some vegetation movement, and now I hear some grunts. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 26:51

Okay. So like a buck has found her.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

But I want to wait now because I got to give the other buck time to get to the buck and the doe that the buck I'm trying to hunt hears. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I'm literally creating a play.

SPEAKER_07 27:07

Because they don't necessarily won't be come running in. They're cautiously coming in generally, won't they?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yes, and no. Depends on the personality and temperament of each individual deer. Just had them come running in. Yeah. Yeah, me too. I have too. And in fact, I wrote that down. I wanted to talk about that a little bit, just in general terms, that if you look at animals, they all have a personality and a different sort of disposition within their behavior. So we've got a local buck around my yard that's a fork, a little guy. And last fall he attacked my 3D decoy twice, took it down to the ground, and he ran off this nicer three-point multiple times. And the other day, the doe with the fawns, who she hasn't brought those fawns out yet, that doe walked into my yard. He came out across the yard and he kicked her right in the ribcage. He's a bully.

SPEAKER_07 28:03

A bully buck, as Dave calls him. Yeah, got an attitude problem.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

This deer has it out for everybody, even now in this summer, where there's no competition for food or breeding, and he's just a little jerk.

SPEAKER_07 28:16

Bad parenting.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

So that deer, I can tell you right now, that deer is every bow hunter's, you know, dream, right? Dream.

SPEAKER_07 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

He's gonna come running in.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

He's gonna come call coming in.

SPEAKER_07 28:28

And I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in. You're seeing him, and he's a younger buck, you're saying small forged horn. Yeah. Okay. Have you ever watched and because Dave will do this like he'll watch a buck for multiple years? And and I showed you evidence I'm watching a buck buck for multiple years. Have you seen that? Okay, he's doing this at two. Have you ever seen that in the past where they do that at two? Is that their same personality when they're a four or five-year-old buck, or do they mellow out?

SPEAKER_01 28:59

I have not witnessed that because I've never had the luxury of a yard buck, so to speak, that I've been able to watch. But these guys, I'm paying attention to their dynamics because they're in my yard all the time. So I get to see things I normally don't see. I watch what they eat, I see where they lay down, I see what yeah, it's dumping rain, and they're all laying out in my pasture all day. And I'm like, why are they doing that? They've done that a lot this last winter. So I don't know. I believe that it's kind of that's the way they were born, that's the way they're hardwired, and they're probably gonna be aggressive going forward. That's my assumption. I don't know. Maybe they get their rear end handed to them a time or two, they change their mind, but I just don't know that they're growing up in families without fathers. Yeah, I just have that rational ability to decide that I'm better change my ways. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 29:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I think it's just gonna be that kind of deer. Just the disposition of that particular buck.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah, and one of the things that I've seen, especially if the population density is a little bit higher, I I tend to see a few more aggressive bucks when the pocket's a little higher. If I'm just seeing one or two bucks on the camera, me, I'm not seeing big fight scruffs out out in the woods like that. A lot of times it's when I'm seeing multiple bucks in an area.

SPEAKER_07 30:14

Yeah, it's interesting because I remember this is on humans, but I remember a teacher when I was in high school, because I went to South Kitts Ep high school and it was very large school with over 2,000 students, and this is back in the late 80s, early 90s, and he said, you can't put too many people into a small space like this and not have fights breaking out more often. It just it's the way things are, it's people too many people are bumping into each other. Yeah, and I think I wonder if there's an aspect of that that translates to the animal kingdom. There's just too many of us. We somebody's got to fight it out.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Yeah, well, case in point, you look at elk farms in the Midwest and they have to saw those horns off a lot of times on them because they're busting each other up so bad.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Same with your whitetail farms when they were producing the urine scents, a lot of those captive herds were they just cut the antlers off because it's dangerous for everybody. But I think maybe getting back to what we were talking about. So when I come together with antlers, it's again a time of year. So if I was earlier in in October, say mid more mid-October, I'm not gonna come in really hard with those antlers. It's gonna be more of a let's sort this out with a little pushing, and maybe you're gonna get the picture and move off. Light sparring kind of thing, or a little bit more aggressive than that? A little more aggressive, but more pushing more vegetation. I love salal for rattling because it's loud. Yeah, I hate it mostly the rest of the year because the same reason. Corn flakes, yeah. But uh it's more about deer that will come together. I keep wanting to grab my antlers here and push together, and they're doing more of this. Okay. And they are grinding, pushing and twisting their necks and trying to see who's stronger, but it's more about those hooves and the vegetation. Okay. So I'll be like mashing the antlers, but I'll also be if I'm if I can, I'll kick my feet or I'll actually pound them in the ground at the same time, just to create the sound of hooves and body weight being moved around.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

And then I wait and again grab my bow and wait. And so it's a buildup to that frustration to where they're actually going to fight. Okay. And there's no way one human is going to emulate the commotion that is a full-blown black tail fight. It's impossible. They I've walked up on two fights, much like the one Dave you were describing. They literally are like zombies and they take out everything. They're rolling down hills. They're they just go crazy.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah, they're oblivious to everything else. They're just that's their main focus, is this other buck. I gotta kill him.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yeah, there's nobody there to break them up, so they're not gonna stop until I was hunting up near Kitsop and I came, I heard a fight, and I didn't know I was hearing a fight because it was way off, and I thought it was somebody doing yard work or doing something. And I realized what I was hearing is two bucks fighting, and they were in this ravine.

SPEAKER_05 33:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

And I'm bow hunting, and I could not even keep up with these deer while they were fighting. I'm not trying to be quiet. I'm trying to run to get within bow range so I can arrow one of them.

SPEAKER_06 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

And all I'm seeing is hide and antlers and hooves mowing through the ferns, and I never did get a shot at them. Never even got close to them. I probably got within 50, 60 yards was the closest I got. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 33:30

So when from that pushing but more ground noise, and that's early mid-October, maybe to the last later part of October.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

So third week of October.

SPEAKER_07 33:41

Okay. And then it switches over to what are you doing next?

SPEAKER_01 33:44

So fourth week of October is the money week, in my opinion. This is when I'm going to get pretty aggressive because now I know that the doughs are not typically the bulk of the doughs are not quite ready. There are some doughs that are coming in, and there's it's game time, right? And so those bucks are going to be more aggressive, they're going to be less patient, and they're going to try to capitalize on any opportunity. So it's the same dough bleats, not waiting as long, not going to tiptoe into it, right? Yeah. And then when I am coming together, I'm literally, if I'm on the ground, I'm actually trying to rattle into brush, like salal and ferns, because I want as much natural sound as I can get. When I hunt out of a tree stand, I have a loop on my my my rope, my cord between my antlers, and I hook this on a like a carabiner and I jig my antlers off the tree stand down into the brush and on the ground and I let them bounce and clank around. It's not as natural, but it kind of is too. It's down on the ground. Usually, if I'm set up around ferns, I'm getting a lot of that, and the leaves and sticks are breaking and whatnot. I've had good luck doing that. And then if you see a deer coming, you can just drop the string because it's tied to your pull-up rope or whatever. But I've done that. I prefer to be on the ground to rattle, honestly. Okay, it's not necessary. I've rattled in deer from a tree stand with just antlers, no vegetation. It's game calling, it's not, it's not an absolute. If they hear there's nothing else in the woods that sounds like that.

SPEAKER_07 35:19

Yeah, it's definitely a unique noise. So, how long are you doing that style?

SPEAKER_01 35:26

So I will be pretty aggressive because they're if they're engaged in that kind of it's not just a gentle shoving, hey, you need to leave. It's a I'm not leaving. We're gonna do this right now. Again, like I can't emulate a real blacktail fight, but I'm gonna give it probably 45 seconds, maybe a minute or longer, depending again on weather, wind, topography, where I'm at, because the longer I'm engaged in a rattling session, especially if I'm on the ground, the higher my odds are of getting caught. Getting caught. And I've been caught a lot. So I'm more these days, I tend to do more aggressive 30 to 45 seconds, and I've got my bow on a hook, arrow knocked, and it's hard because you go from being very aggressive and physical to then trying to be quiet and stop breathing like a maniac because it

How Hard To Rattle

SPEAKER_01 36:20

oh yeah, it's like and Tom's in rut. Yeah, I and sometimes I think, God, what if a non-hunter's this is crazy. The stuff we do in the woods is just crazy.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

So I have a real quick question for you, Tom. Sure. So I'm looking at your rattling antlers right there. How does the average person get a hold of a rattling antler? And what size of antlers do they need? I was gonna ask that.

SPEAKER_04 36:41

Is there a particular size that you prefer?

SPEAKER_01 36:44

No, not necessarily. I've used lots of different natural antlers before. I do have a couple rattle bag examples, and then at home I didn't actually bring it, but I have a rattle bag, but I've made my own rattle bag with cutoff antler tines.

SPEAKER_05 37:02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Oh that these synthetic rattle bags, you know, they're just a bunch of strange little plastic pieces of plastic. Yeah, and it's like ABS plastic or whatever. It's great in wet weather, right? Because they don't get water along.

SPEAKER_07 37:17

Yeah, I have one of the dowel ones, yeah, and as soon as the moisture content went up in the air, it was useless. Yeah. Made no noise whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah, this other bag I have, it's got different shaped on some of these have more acrylic plastic, which is a more of a tinnier found.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Yeah. So does any of that really matter? I don't think so. You're appealing to the psychology of a deer who's ramped up on testosterone.

SPEAKER_05 37:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

So I don't want people to get too hung up on that. But to your point, Kelly, I like to have natural shed antlers, especially when it's not raining. I don't leave these out in the rain because they will it'll dull the tone. And when I'm out there calling, I'm trying to get the sound out. So I like them nice and dry when I can. I mean, if it's raining, it's raining. I'll sometimes put them in my pack. But these are medium-sized, like 80 to 90 inch class blacktail sheds. I use two of the same side as you see out of them nested together. Left-hand side. Yeah, it could be two right, it could be right and left. Doesn't matter. It could be uh any, it doesn't matter what kind of antler it is, it could be, you know, it can be white tailed.

SPEAKER_07 38:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

I use mule deer antlers for mine. Yeah. I have I made this bungee so that they are they don't strap tight rattle, yeah. Right. And then this whole thing gets strapped to the back of my pack. I like one brow time or two brow tines, even if they're just nubs, because I can run my pack strap under that and then put my strap around there. I don't have to worry about slipping out and losing them.

SPEAKER_06 38:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

And sometimes I've run my my strap through my bungee and whatnot, but I want these on the outside of my pack so I can access them quickly. I don't have any metal on here, these are just loops, so I can just quickly bind this thing back up into a little nest, stick it on my pack, and go.

SPEAKER_04 39:08

So are you doing a run and gun kind of thing, or are you doing tree stand, tree saddle? Both, all the above.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

All the yeah, I haven't rattled out of a saddle. Maybe I did in the Midwest a long time ago. I first saddle hunted, I think it was in '94. It was the Anderson Sling, it was the only product out there, and I thought it was weird, but it was actually quite comfortable. Ever since then, I I pretty much tree stand hunt with a platform, you know, hang on tree stand. And but I do both on the ground out of trees. Which one do you prefer more most? I don't know, probably on the ground. Run and gun. Well, yeah, as far as run and gun, yeah. I like to be mobile. If I'm in a tree stand situation, sometimes I run a gun with a tree stand. My lone wolf, it's an alpha hang on, it's an old stand. But it's a heavy too. It's small. Like my old man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a really solid stand, doesn't it doesn't make any sounds whatsoever. And I can just go. And sometimes if I find a good spot, I'll put up a stand. Sometimes I like to do that when I can go up 10 feet on the top of a knob and I can get my sound down into the side ravines. Whereas if I'm on the ground, my sound kind of goes out and over the top. But run and gun is my favorite, I guess, on the ground, moving through habitat, hunting into the wind, using the wind and the topography. It's again like fishing. You're trying to cast your sound into different places and see if anyone will bite.

SPEAKER_07 40:37

Okay. So gonna bring us back. First three weeks of October, you're doing the light pushing, some ground noise, and you're that light noise of them pushing against each other for how long? What's that duration?

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Of the actual it's not very long, maybe 15 to 25 seconds. Okay. And that's like the second half of October. Second half of October. Starting in about mid-month.

SPEAKER_07 41:01

Okay. And then after that starting the last week of October into November.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah, then I'm getting more aggressive. More aggressive. I'm aggressive all the way through peak breeding.

SPEAKER_07 41:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Because at this point, the testosterone's through the roof. There's a lot of breeding happening. There's a frenzy around that. And again, it's going to be different in different areas. I've seen bucks chasing does through parking lots in rural areas or urban areas. And then you go to other areas that you're hunting in, it's like you see a doe or three does all day and no bucks. And because it just depends on when they come into that breeding standing estrisk breeding area window. So when you get to peak breeding, it's full blown. And then when I go into December, things change. Post we call post-rut post-peak breeding. Yeah. There's more competition for available

Antlers Bags And Hunting Styles

SPEAKER_01 41:55

dough to breed, but it's been mid-October to mid-December. That's two full months of them being chased. Of them being harassed, chased, and bucks being on their feet a lot.

SPEAKER_07 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

They gotta drink a lot of water. They fortunately blacktails, they get a lot of their water through vegetation and eating, but they're not eating. They'll drop weight. They're gonna spend some time resting. But when there's an opportunity, and this is we're calling, I think, is so effective in December, is I don't know that they're expecting it necessarily. And so maybe there's a buck laying up somewhere and he hears some sparring. He's gonna go, hmm, there's a doe down there. There's a receptive doe down there. Maybe he's gonna come investigate it. I shot one deer, rattled this deer in mid-December. It was after work, I think, or during the work day. I don't remember. But I was hunting before you worked for work day here. No, no, we're talking like responsible way a long time ago. At least 15 years ago, probably. I was actually, you know what I was doing. It was approved time off. Yeah. I finished a phone conference call with a team in Shanghai, China, and they're they're ahead of us by full business day. So yeah, I'd done some weird work hours, and I remember I got off the call, changed, hiked into my little makeshift ground blind, rattled, pulled this pretty nice fork off this hillside, watched him come cruising down the hillside, just beelined right for me. Shot him. I was done in like 15 minutes on that hunt. Oh, nice. But that deer ran off, and I wasn't sure of the hit, so I waited. I went home, ate dinner, came back after dinner and started snowing. And I found the buck. Fortunately, I was able to track him. I didn't have a lot of blood. He only went about 100 yards, but yeah, I just the shot was a little far back and the angle wasn't quite what I wanted, and so I left him. But found the buck, and I am gutting this deer out with a headlamp on, and it's probably eight. 8 p.m. at this point and I hear an all-out brawl back kind of near where I had was set up. Okay. And I literally went back to the truck, dug around to see if I had a spotlight. I had an old rechargeable spotlight or whatever in there. I hiked up that hill and got as close as I could and then you know lit it up. I never did see them, but they were up there fighting. It was a full-on fight in mid-December, end December, third week probably.

SPEAKER_07 44:30

So how hard are you going the last bit?

SPEAKER_01 44:34

It's it's going back to almost what I do in early that mid-October. It's a little lighter. I'm recognizing the fact that these deer are probably tired. A little worn out. Yeah. And so I'm trying to give them an easy meal, so to speak.

SPEAKER_07 44:46

So how are you using calls? And I'm thinking doe bleats, fawn, butt grunts, snort wheezing, all of those. How are you using those in conjunction with the rattling?

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yeah. So I use a doe bleat throughout the season. Okay. Whether it's September all the way through. A doe bleat is a social call. It's not generally an alarm call. But I think one thing people tend to do with calls in general is overcall, especially when it comes to deer hunting. It's not often that you hear a doe walking around making doe bleats, right? Yeah. And I've also noticed spending lots of time in tree stands in other states, whitetails tend to grunt pretty loud and it's a more guttural sound. Our blacktail grunts almost sound like a louder doe bleat in a lot of ways. It's not super loud. It can get loud. I've seen bucks get more sharp and crisp with the with their grunts. But anyway, I'll use a doe bleat, and then with the buck grunts, it's I can demonstrate it. First thing I do is I get rid of the tube that typically comes with these calls. Okay. I don't think you need it. I think it's just extra tone and hollow sound that I don't like. I like a more flat, like I said, a muted sound. But my buck grunt will be something like this. It's softer, a little that's literally how loud I blow it too. I don't know how that sounds on a podcast.

SPEAKER_07 46:19

That didn't sound much louder than our speaking voices.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Yeah, it's pretty quiet.

SPEAKER_07 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

And I've always said that about blacktail, that that vocally they're a lot softer than white tail.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

So I brought this. This is back in the day when I was working for Larry. We used to get a lot of calls, right? And you reverse engineer, you take things apart, you see what people are doing. This is PS Olt call companies, been around forever out of Illinois. This is their grunt deer call, but listen to this. I mean, it's loud. I think this call you most of these you blow. I inhale my call too, by the way. This is an open read call. And what brand is that? This is a Jones deer grunt call, which now is made by point blank hunting calls. Same exact call, just a different call body.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

I think I have a Carlton's an old plastic one, and it does just well for me, too.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Carlton?

SPEAKER_05 47:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

So when you blow through a deer call, you're blowing moist, warm air over a mylar reed and a board.

SPEAKER_06 47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

And the sound you hear is the vibration of this mylar reed, right? So in cold weather, your first blow of moist air is a lot of moisture. Condensation and it'll stick your reed. Yeah. So the first thing I do is I flip it around and I actually inhale the air through the call. That way I'm pulling cold air through a cold plastic and a cold reed and it doesn't stick or

Grunt Calls Bleats And Cold Air Trick

SPEAKER_01 47:45

freeze up.

SPEAKER_05 47:45

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Right. So that's one thing, and another reason to get rid of the tube because the tube is on the traditional exhale side of the call. Yeah. So on this call, listen to the sound of this is a white tail grunt call. It's very gutteral. Yeah. And I'm not saying that won't work. I'm just saying I've never heard a black tail sound like that.

SPEAKER_07 48:06

So I actually, it was funny because I've got a couple of buck grunt calls, and I got another one, and it was something at Phelps. And I picked up a couple one of the rattle bags and one of the grunt calls, and they threw in a little one, an adjustable read call. And so you can move it from a fawn to a doe. That's what this does. Yeah, and to a buck. That is by far better than any of the other calls I've ever messed with because I can adjust it to what I need it to do.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah, and I like doing that too. There are times where I'll it I'll lower the tone on this by just moving the O-ring back a little bit, and it's a little it's a little deeper. Now you might do that again, thinking about weather, and when you're trying to cut through wind noise and other things, maybe I don't want that nice, soft, buttery sound. Maybe I want a little crisper something to break that. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_07 49:02

That stands out noise-wise.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

So, yeah, adjustable O-ring. A lot of calls come with this open soundboard, but they don't have any way to adjust them.

SPEAKER_06 49:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

So that's why I like Jones. Again, these this exact call is made by point blank. Now I'm not endorsing them in any way. I'm just saying this is all the way back to 1993. This is the same call that I used since then.

SPEAKER_07 49:24

Yeah. Okay. So what about Fawn? Are you ever using a fawn? Yeah. Call? So when, why, where, how, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Cool, cool learning example on this one. So we were filming a video called Wily Whitales. We were going around the Midwest. We were in Iowa, and I was filming another bow hunter named Rich Weddle. His wife had Kathy Kelly designs. You might remember that company. They were down out of Oregon. They made bow hunting clothing, fleece clothing. So Rich and I were in two trees, two tree stands side by side. I had full camera gear. He's a traditional bow hunter with a recurve. And we're sitting in this kind of, I don't know, it's a nice little bottom, little funnel. And all of a sudden, we hear this fawn bleat coming coming toward us. And we're like, and we're looking at each other, and I flip the camera on and I come around and thought, I'm gonna get some cool footage of this little white-tailed fawn comes under the stand, and then I look up and I see Rich grabbing his bow and I turn around, and there's a 9.120 class inch buck right behind this fawn, like within I don't know how many yards it was. And so I film Rich shooting this deer, and then really cool. We got all the pictures, we did all the video stuff. We're back at our little cabin and we're telling Larry about it and what happened. And so I grabbed my call and I'm like, Yeah, this fawn came in. Oh, geez, I just broke it. I just broke the read on my call. How was that?

SPEAKER_02 50:55

It's only from 93. No worries, boys.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

I'm not gonna be able to get the sign. Probably not gonna be able to emulate it. So I moved the O-ring up on this call. I'm gonna try it anyway. And I'm like, just emulating what we we got on tape. And so we're like, oh, this is really cool. Well, Larry and I were gonna go out and I'm filming him. So we got up late, the wind was wrong, everything was wrong. Most mornings you should just go back to bed. Everything was wrong. But we already had our stand set up. We just got up there anyway. So we're hardly really hunting, we're side by side in two different trees talking, and nothing's happening. It's warm. We're in ill, we're in Iowa trying to film a hunting video, and everything's going wrong here. So Larry goes, What was that sound you guys were talking about? So a couple loud pleading fawn bleats, and I look up and I go, There's a buck, and he was way out, and he was running down this brush line or fence line or ditch or something. And I mean, he beelined. He came in so fast, I barely got the camera on and swung around. And Larry's pulling his bow back, he shoots this buck right under our stand.

SPEAKER_07 52:04

So is that whole situation? Is it the fawn is looking for the its mother, it's the doe. Yeah, and the buck is thinking that she could be receptive, and it's it's you're so you're creating an illusion that there's a doe there, yes, playing off of his hormones that are causing him to rage and come in.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

You read it exactly okay, yeah. You're probably more like a deer than you realize, Aaron. No, but that's it. It's like the what we put together on that and that learning was that okay, when these bucks lock down does are left, and they're fawns, they're patient for a little while, but eventually it's like, hey mom, where are you? Yeah. And Mr. Buck doesn't want her let her out of his sight for 72 hours. So it's like it creates this tension between the doe and the fawn. And I think it's an opportunity where calling can You're not my real dad. Yeah, you can create something out of nothing.

SPEAKER_07 53:02

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

You can't tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_07 53:05

See, this is what happens when you come from a background of like teaching parenting classes and education and stuff. I used to teach parenting classes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

I mean, honestly, I think that's what's happening there. And so I will use a fawn. Now I've also done that on Prince of Wales Island in Alaska. We were filming some bear hunting up there, and I'm about got run over by Sitka Blacktails doing that same sound. Oh, okay. They just come in ready to steal your lunch money, I guess. They're like looking to protect that fawn.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

And that's real popular up there doing that bleeding.

SPEAKER_04 53:40

And let's see, I'd heard of Fawn in Distress, and I knew Larry D. Jones, and my my brother actually had that call in distress. And but that's the only person that I've ever known to have it. But he would call in early season, he would have fork and horns and small threes and spikes come running into that.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Yeah, they will. As well as does. That was the gray, it was the same call. I covered mine in fleece because I didn't want it bouncing off my shirt back then, but or my pack buckles. It's the same call, but it was gray. Right.

Fawn Sounds That Pull Bucks

SPEAKER_01 54:10

And it had a fixed read, much like this. And the difference was the reed length was short. So I'm gonna take a shot at it here with this call. Basically, I'm guessing that it sounded something like this. Yeah. And that's more of that distress call. And that's a great bear call, predator call. Be careful if you're new at this and you start making those distress calls, you could call in the bear cougar or something.

SPEAKER_07 54:40

Towards the end of my hunt, I was actually thinking that was the one call I didn't try using, just not knowing am I gonna completely do this wrong. But I thought about just doing fawn in distress all day, just to make something come in and so I could shoot something. It was like, well, I got my bear tag, got my cougar tag, I got everything. So if I can get something to show up, yeah, yeah, I can harvest.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

I've never done that. The d I don't use a fawn in distress. I will use a fawn bleat two or three times almost.

SPEAKER_07 55:11

And those are so those are different sounds. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

The one I just did was more the higher pitch one is the higher pitch. Yeah, think of a little kid calling for its mother, whereas a fawn bleat is more just a like a search eating. Yeah, yeah. It's more of a you can look at footage of fawns bleeding. We have the beauty of the internet these days. You can go look at this stuff online, and but I think the element, and we can go back to this, but it's like creating that illusion. You you have to know enough about animal behavior to interpret and create the do the role playing that you're trying to put out there to the world. And if you think about it, if you go through this scenario, whatever it might be, whether it's calling or rattling or both, you're gonna in that moment in time, you've put it out there. If nothing happens within 45 minutes to an hour, I'm assuming nothing heard me or nothing wants to react to it. React to it. So then I'll move. Okay. Or if I'm in a tree stand, I'll wait an hour. And then I'm assuming if I'm up there during the rut phases, well, maybe another buck has moved in here, or maybe they came out of that draw and now they can hear me where they couldn't before. So half of it's the mental game with yourself to give you the confidence to try it. Because you can spend a lot of time, and I've spent years doing these things and not had any results.

SPEAKER_07 56:32

I can be looking at it. Have you found with rattling, calling, all of that, if you blow it one day, can you come out tomorrow and it's a clean slate? Or is it you kind of blow out at what point do you blow out a spot versus you've just ruined your hunt day?

SPEAKER_01 56:49

I think during the rut, it's kind of like the wild west, honestly. I don't I wouldn't say that if I rattled in a excuse me, if I rattled in a buck and I didn't get a shot, if he didn't win me, that's what I'm concerned about.

SPEAKER_05 57:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

He comes in, doesn't see anything, or doesn't come in, or he hangs up and gets nervous and moves off. We're gonna play tomorrow too. Yeah. You know what I mean? Okay. If he comes in and sees me or wins me or both, uh I'm gonna let that sit a week.

SPEAKER_06 57:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Okay. Uh one buck that I got a couple years ago. I knew I was pushing it trying to get to my stand because it was what, 14 degrees, and everything was just absolutely crispy and there was no wind. Oh. And I had a long ways to get up in there. And I was like, how am I gonna get to my stand in this? Yeah, it's crunch, crunch, crunch. And I just said, you know what? I'm gonna take as long as it takes. And I was probably it probably took me over an hour, hour and a half to go about 150 yards to get to where I could start to see, you know, start scanning and looking, and I could see my stand. And I'm like, okay, I'm so close, I'm so close. And then I I got impatient, so to speak, and I tried to move up to this next spot, and the buck that I was trying to kill was there, and he was watching me, and he took out of there like a freight train. They're always watching, yeah. And I just was sunk, you know, that feeling of like I just completely blew it. Like there's not that much longer in the season. He is not gonna tolerate anything now, nothing. And I gave it a full week, and we had another good cold snap, and we had some rain though, and I was able to get in there, and I got that deer right before dark. And it I feel like I didn't deserve maybe that second chance on that deer, because that's the only time I've ever had a mature deer s physically see me in his spot and actually come back.

SPEAKER_07 58:47

Yeah. When I'm there, yeah, and I know that's they preaches against that you just don't go into their bedroom because you could blow them out, yeah, type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

And I wasn't in his bedroom, but I was where he was gonna transition to feed.

SPEAKER_07 59:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

And I knew I knew the day that I went up there that I was pushing it, but you just make decisions. And I was I think at the time I was feeling like, gosh, I need to put more time in this on this deer. And I guess that well, what if he's a what if he's a quarter mile away and I can just get up in there?

SPEAKER_03 59:19

Yeah. So you play these mental games, they're never a quarter mile away. So it's always at the base of your tree, just napping.

SPEAKER_07 59:27

I want to wrap up because yeah, another nice long episode here, which our listeners it's one of their complaints that they just wish we went longer because we are episodes end and now they gotta wait till next week. So here you go. You've got the commute to work and the commute home. You're welcome. If and I've and part of the articles that you wrote that I read, hunting with a partner and doing the calling and rattling with a partner. Now, how do you set up if because I know, like with Elk, you've got your guy calling who's behind you and you and the shooters up front. How would you set up if you wanted to have somebody come out and call and rattle for you? How would you be setting that situation up?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Really glad that you asked this question because we talked about the sounds, we did not talk about the setup, and that's a whole nother can of worms. But let me just say this when you're calling, and this is true with elk, right? A lot of times they're gonna try to circle to verify what they heard. Uh-huh. They're going to use all the senses they can to validate what they think. So fooling their eyes is one thing. You stand there still enough, you can make an elk think that maybe he didn't see you move. They're not gonna get you're not gonna get past their nose.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Right. So deer is the same way. When I set up, I literally want to know exactly where I expect that deer to be where I shoot, right? So the wind direction, topography. I am gonna pick my spot where I want that deer to be standing when I shoot. Is he gonna cooperate? Maybe, but typically that spot is lateral to my downwind position. Okay. Meaning I think they're gonna try to circle. I think they're gonna come from here, they might come from over there. But if they come from over here, they're likely going to follow here. They're probably not

Setup With A Partner And Wind

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

gonna cross that big snag that fell. Like I'm gonna position myself to try to get them to come into a spot where I can get a shot. And it one year I used a decoy and it worked perfectly. That's another topic, decoy use. But the setup is important. And the main thing I would say, the takeaway is don't expect to shoot them up wind of you. Expect to shoot them as they're trying to get downwind of you. Okay. So know where they're gonna try to get to and make sure your shooting lane is intercepting them in that that trajectory.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:54

Now, so let's say your caller, you're the shooter and your caller. Are they 10 yards behind you or are they off to one of your sides?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

It's it's just like elk. I think you're gonna, I mean, I don't do a lot of two-person setups because I hunt solo mostly for black tails, but like with my buddy Mark back in college, we were kind of side by side at the upper edge of this big ravine that kind of was lateral in front of us. So it was like a huge ditch, and that buck came out of the bottom. And what we were trying to do is have him focus on me so that Mark could draw his bow over here and shoot him as soon as he crested the top of the hill.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

And it worked, except that it was dumping rain, and Mark's finger tab got all hung up in his bowstring and he missed the shot. So it's it's just again anticipating where you want that buck to be and then putting the caller in a situation where the deer is going to because they can pinpoint exactly where that sound is. Yeah. So use that, much like when elk calling, you're always going to want to pivot.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

You can read the deer where they're coming from, if you can see them. If you can move and you can and try to pull that deer back closer to your shooter, then do it. But it's just tough. It's so thick and it is.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:06

And so part of me is I'm thinking about like where I hunted last year because Dave's not necessarily hunting. He's doing late archery and I'm doing modern of a scenario where I feel like I'm getting volunteered to be the caller. Think about this because it's one of those where it's that putting all of those pieces together where it's not only the calling and rattling, but because we're using our synthetic sense and we're we have drags coming in from different directions, and I know where the bucks are coming. It's like I'm just thinking, how do I put all of those pieces together? Right. So even if actually, if it's not Dave, but if I had somebody else who wanted to come out and call and rattle for me, like where would I tell them? And how do you get them to where they can move, where they know where to move?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, another aspect of this though, I think with Dave's system, and it's pretty darn, I want to use the word innovative because it's hard to go through years of hunting black tails and then build some sort of playbook. And I've tried to do it in my writings and things with like to me, it's about strategies and this idea that these are different tools and tactics that you can try. But I think in Dave's system, rattling and calling is just to me like frosting on the cake. You're already building the scenario with other components.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:30

Yeah, you're just you're taking that illusion that we've already created. Yeah, and it's taking like watching black and white television, the movie's still the same, it's just a black and white. And then when you add color to it, then it's oh my gosh, that's yeah, you're kind of like the color, yeah, you know, in this whole thing. It's like it would just take and make it that much better.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

The risk, real quick, Aaron, the risk though, is the minute you put an audio stimulant into your system and your setup, now you have the opportunity for that deer to not expose himself and to sit and wait and watch. So you've got a little bit of nuance there where you don't want to say you're in a, you know, I think about the setup you had at your field course for at the hunter's gathering that we went out and took a look at. If you were in that stand or that ground blind and you were rattling, that deer may never step into your spot right because he doesn't have to. He's gonna expect to see two bucks standing there and smell them. So, you know what I mean? If they don't have that visual, that's the only problem with audio, and I say audio because that's the sensory that hearing. If you if they can hear it, now they have to see it to believe it. Whereas if they can't hear it, but they smell it, then they want to go investigate so they can see it. Yeah, or hear it. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:51

So it there is a risk factor in doing that. And we're in where it's so thick, they could stand in the cover and look out and say, okay, I'm not seeing it. That's the only little opening that's in here, and I don't see anything standing there. So and that's where the sound came from.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

They must have moved off. And sure, they could get curious and move through that spot, but it's weird because and you can get your own head about this, right? Like, should I, should I not? This, that, and the other thing. Every time I get my tree stand, I think I should be in the other one.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:18

Yeah, oh yeah, exactly. I don't want to start playing that game. No, and it's part of that if a buck has been cruising

Closing Notes And Hunters Gathering

SPEAKER_07 1:06:25

by, but you do something, or whether it's rattling or you're just using one of the a doe bleed or a phone, it's letting them know, oh, there's something going on down, and I remember smelling her and this other guy down there, so I'm gonna go check it out. But it's that also that I'm gonna watch.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

Yeah. I'm not saying it can't work, I'm saying it probably like Dave says a frosting on the cake or adding the color to the movie. But I will say that in rattling, especially, or even just using a bleat or a fawn or a dough call or a buck grunt, animals when they're if you hit the right animal at the right moment, they're gonna respond. And it's it to me, it's a lot like elk hunting and even turkey hunting in that respect, where you just read the situation and try to play it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:15

Okay. And on that note, I think we'll end. Thank you guys, Kelly, Tom, for jumping on. Very educational. You got me thinking a lot about season. We're all getting excited. I know that it just happens. But thanks for joining us and everything that you've shared. There's a lot of great information. If you could like, subscribe, follow, do all of those things that your platform asks, we'd really appreciate it. Send us a comment. And a quick announcement: if you want to see Colin and Rattling in action, Tom will be at the Hunters Gathering. Keep checking the website and you will see other people who we've added. I believe by the time this is out, we will have added quite a few names onto the list of what to expect. We've had a lot of electives this year, so check that out. Thehuntersgathering.com, and we will talk to you next week.