Kristin Koval, Penitence

In this episode Brett sits down with Kristin Koval to discuss her debut novel, “Penitence” which is the Barnes and Noble Discover pick for February.  
She talks about her former career as a lawyer, her path to becoming a writer, empathy for characters, and the journey from tragedy to forgiveness. 

Kristin's website:
https://kristinkoval.com/

Kristin's instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/kristinkovalwriter

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Transcript

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Brett Benner 0:00

Hey, everybody, it's Brett and welcome or welcome back to behind the stack. So I hope you all had a good week or are having a good week wherever you are. Crazy weather. here in the US. Crazy weather everywhere, frankly, but, freezing cold temperatures, fires in California. It's a little crazy. Anyway, I hope you're all staying safe. I hope you're all staying warm. I hope you're all cuddling up with a good book. And to add to that, I have a few titles that are coming out today that I wanted to highlight. The first is Good Dirt by Charmaine Wilkerson, the author of Black Cake, which I really enjoy. This is her new book. Also for you thriller fans, Frida McFadden. The crash is out today. And finally, Edmund White has a nonfiction book, the loves of my life, which is kind of a, uh, recounting of his sexual conquests. Speaking of books out today, my next guest, her debut book, and. Her name is Kristen Koval. The book is Penitence. It's really terrific. And, we had a really great conversation, a little bit about Kristen. She is a former lawyer who always wanted to be a writer, but initially wandered down other paths. While writing Penitence, she completed a 12 month novel generator class at Catapult Books. She's an alumna of Suwannee's Writer Conference and. Aspen Summer Words, and her short story, Inheritance, was named a finalist in the Salamander 2022 Fiction Contest. She attended Phillips Exeter Academy, Georgetown University, and Columbia Law School. She lives in Boulder, Colorado, and Park City, Utah, with her husband, two sons, and great Danes. So enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. So a couple things. First of all, I loved the book. I just, I thought it was, so fantastic. So congratulations.

Kristin Koval 1:54

That's so kind of you. Thank you.

Brett Benner 2:00

Before we get into it, I just had, like, some questions about you. So I know you attended phillips Exeter Academy, Georgetown, and Columbia Law. What kind of law did you study?

Kristin Koval 2:12

So I, um, usually in law school, you, you mostly focus on the prerequisites initially, and then I did a lot of sort of international and human rights classes, because I thought I might go into that and I ended up actually going into corporate law and I worked, I worked at one of the big New York City sweatshops. Which actually was full of really kind, lovely people, but we all, it truly was a sweatshop. You work very hard. and I did corporate law for, um, five years, you know, apologies to my former law firm. I was miserable. I really did not like being a corporate lawyer and I switched, and sort of retrained myself as a trust and estates lawyer and tax lawyer. Which was a much better fit for me because I'm a people person. And as a trust and estates lawyer, you get to spend a lot of time with, you know, people and their families and their stories. And so that was just right for me. So that's what I did for most of my legal career.

Brett Benner 3:13

Do you think that there was anything in your time as a lawyer that aided you as a writer? I mean, besides the obvious, and for this, clearly there's certain things you can pull upon,

Kristin Koval 3:23

I think there were a couple of things. One, which initially seems strange to me because I, one of my favorite kinds of literature is magical realism, especially Latin American literature, you know, Garcia Marquez and Borges, and they tend to be very flowery and their, their language is so lyrical. And yet when I became a lawyer, especially when I was working with, you know, people as a trust and estates lawyer, I was constantly trying to explain things in, layman's terms and sort of, I never wanted to speak in legalese and I think that made it easier for me to write prose more efficiently. Because I really don't like to use. Too many words. I just like to be efficient when I write. And so, and that's, that's sort of a strange effect that being a lawyer had on my writing. Um, and, and opposite from the kind of writer than I thought I would be. I thought I would be lyrical and I'm not lyrical. I'm, I've been told a number of times, Oh, you're very efficient with words. And so that's my, that's the legal effect.

Brett Benner 4:30

You're like, it's called brevity.

Kristin Koval 4:31

Yes, I try.

Brett Benner 4:32

So then at what point did you make the switch? Did you start to think like, Hey, you know what? I really want to be doing this. I really want to be writing. Or was that something that had always kind of been underlying even when you were in law?

Kristin Koval 4:46

Oh my gosh, that, that I have wanted to write since probably fourth grade. Um, and I was a bookworm as a child. All I did was read and my parents. Always, they, they have this story to tell about the first time we ever went to on a big vacation and we went to Mexico and I would stay in the hotel room and, make myself a bed in the bathtub with pillows and blankets and read all afternoon while they were all out on the beach. so I, I was always a bookworm. I was an English major in college. Um, and I just kind of went down this road of. Wanting to be a professional and, kind of prove that I could make it in the world, you know, I grew up in the late eighties, early nineties, and I wanted to prove, Hey, I can be a successful professional just as well as a man can. And so didn't really, I was kind of single mindedly focused on that. And I tried actually to do both. And I tried three times to write a book while I was a lawyer. Um, and, For the very first time I actually tried while I was on maternity leave with my son and he was my first child. And I thought, Oh, I'll have all this free time on maternity leave. I'll write a whole book. Meanwhile, I couldn't even find time to take a shower. So that, that try at a book failed. Um, and then I tried again when my, I have two sons. So, I tried again when they were maybe sort of. five and seven Um, and that didn't work because I had just stopped being a corporate lawyer and switched into trust in the state law. And I said, forget it. I'm just going to go be a lawyer. And then I got an offer, you know, to go work at a law firm in trust in the states. And I thought, well, I can't pass up that opportunity. A paycheck. So put it aside again. Then I tried, a third time. And I think the thing was for me, it was very difficult to be a lawyer and a mother who wanted to coach soccer and do all that stuff. I just hadn't, I had no creative energy left. And around sort of 2017, I stumbled into, a free writing class in Boulder on Pearl Street. And I came out of the class and I realized I, I have been missing something very important through all of these tries, which is I had never taken a creative writing class. In my entire life, somehow I got through college with no creative writing classes. I had no writing community and I wasn't giving myself the support to do it. And I started taking classes, cause the kids were older. It was finally easier to do, but I was also still a little bit unhappy at work as a lawyer. And I realized I didn't want to wake up when I was 80 and say, I wish I would have tried. And so I took the plunge in 2018 and, gave myself a year, where I would not be a lawyer and I would just focus on writing. So I left my law firm. I think everybody was My family was shocked other than my husband, greatest supporter in my world. But you know, my parents were shocked. My fellow partners were shocked. And I had never been so happy in my life. The first day I sat down when I was no longer a lawyer and I could simply write.

Brett Benner 7:56

Now, did you tell everyone I'm taking a year and I'm writing, or was it simply like, this is not for me, I'm just taking time.

Kristin Koval 8:02

Um, I was not going to tell anybody. And my husband said to me, you need to own it. You, you, if this is what you want to do, you, you need to own it because you need to own it to yourself as well. And that was scary as. I'll get out to say I want to go write a book. when I didn't really have very much experience writing but I did it and he was right. I think owning it was the best thing that I ever could have done.

Brett Benner 8:28

That's amazing. And here we are. Here we are. Okay. So for, for our viewers or for listeners, do you have an elevator pitch for the book?

Kristin Koval 8:37

I do, I do. So, um, The novel, Penitence, is set in a small town in southwest Colorado, and a little bit in New York City as well, and it opens on the immediate aftermath of a 13 year old girl, Nora, having shot and killed her 14 year old brother, Nico, and her parents are here. Of course, distraught, they're angry, they're full of blame and guilt, but they're also struggling with, a conflicting desire to protect her against an overzealous DA who wants to charge her as an adult, even though she's only 13 and send her to prison for the rest of her life. So they recruit a local lawyer named Martine, who was on the verge of retiring. And she doesn't have much experience, so she brings in her son Julian, because he's a successful criminal defense attorney in New York. The problem is, they have, the two families have been estranged for a long time, and they have a complicated history, and so as the novel progresses, all of the characters are sort of working through their complicated past and present, and they're trying to figure out whether they can ever arrive at forgiveness, and if so, how.

Brett Benner 9:49

You speak about this a little bit in the afterwards, can you say, where did this idea come from? Or what was the genesis of this for you?

Kristin Koval 9:56

so really the genesis was twofold. The first, the first is that I've had really. impactful experiences with forgiveness in my own life, both forgiving other people and, and being forgiven. It was a feeling that I really wanted to be able to talk about and, and write about, but it's also really hard to write about forgiveness without sounding preachy. And I decided to start with a fratricide because you are putting the parents in both the easiest and hardest position possible to forgive. Hardest because they've just lost a child and the other child is responsible for it. Easiest because if they don't forgive, they will lose the, the second child. And it seemed like a good way to really talk about how complicated forgiveness is and yet how rewarding once it actually happens. So that was the first part, sort of this desire to talk about forgiveness. The second driving force, when I started thinking about a fratricide was, I had seen a fratricide in, in the news in Colorado Springs in like. I think 2017 and then started noticing more of those stories when they, came up on the news. There was, you know, one in particular that really kind of caught my attention. And I decided to research it a little bit because it's not. It's not something anybody really ever thinks about. I mean, it's in the Bible, Cain and Abel, and it's in mythology with Romulus and Remus, and, you know, it's in all the monarchies all over the world. But in modern days, we don't tend to think about it. And yet, once I started researching it, there were a ton of cases of fratricide. I couldn't believe how many I found. I think it just, People don't really want to talk about it. And I, I found cases with really young perpetrators, 12, 11, 10, one nine year old, and twins, um, and every time I. I looked at these cases, my heart was really out there for the parents, um, because I, I have two sons and, you know, it just makes you think, what would you do and how, how would you get through it? And, it just seemed like the right, right way to talk about forgiveness.

Brett Benner 12:09

And this is what I so appreciated about the book, you know, and it's getting comparisons with, Little Fires Everywhere with Ann Patchett. And it's interesting because I also noticed, I think in your afterwards, you, you speak about, Angie Kim. And, I adore Angie. And it, and it reminds me, a very much of something in the Angie Kim world, of her books as well. One of the things I so appreciated about your storytelling is it's not neat. And by that, I mean, there's no bow at the end. Everything wrapped up and they all lived happily ever after. It's very real. Uh, it really puts you in that place to think about, I think, especially for a parent, how would you deal with a situation, how, in so many facets, because you're talking about access to guns, you're talking about blame, and, so I really appreciated it and it made it much more realistic and thoughtful that, that there is no easy answers with any of this and you get to the end and it's like, okay. Um, but I just think that's life and, and, and it's very real.

Kristin Koval 13:16

Well, and you know, I think, I think the thing is, is that we all have Bad things happen to us in life. And we also all make mistakes, whether or not we want to admit it. Probably most of us have made big mistakes too. I mean, we all make small mistakes, but I think most people in their life have made at least one big mistake, you know, maybe not a murder, but. People have done something wrong that they feel bad about, and you have to figure out how to pick up and move on from it. and there are consequences to mistakes. You can't really avoid those consequences, and it's not always fair to avoid consequences. That's why we have criminal laws. But I also think that we need to recognize that we are all guilty of these mistakes and, and figure out how, how do we let each other move on, and how do we let ourselves move on?

Brett Benner 14:08

Well, and as you say in the book, as one of the characters says, that you're not defined by one particular act or one particular thing does not define your, your whole being as a person. And I think that's really resonated with me as well. Because like you just said, everyone is capable, everyone has, in a life there are things that are going to happen that are just inevitable, one way or the other. You know, the book is so much about, forgiveness, but there's such a part of a book that it's about secrets and, so many of these characters are holding on to something. And of course, we're not going to get into any kind of spoilers, but, almost everyone has something. Inside them, driving them can you talk a little bit about that?

Kristin Koval 14:49

Yeah, well, and, and that was actually part of the reason that I wrote the secrets that exist inside of everybody. That was part of the reason I decided to write the novel from multiple perspectives, because you wouldn't necessarily have had such a good look at that if you, Really only saw the novel from one person's point of view. And much like mistakes, I think we all carry secrets inside of us and they help form who we are and how we live. And sometimes those secrets are really painful. Because other people don't know about them, other people don't necessarily understand what a person is going through and therefore don't have empathy for their behavior.

Brett Benner 15:35

In the construction of the book, I'm so curious, did you have beats very clearly delineated for your characters? Did you know a lot of these? For lack of a better word, revelations from the get go, or were there some things as you went through the writing you thought, Oh, this will add another color. This could add something else. This could deepen this relationship.

Kristin Koval 15:55

A little bit of both. To be honest, I had, you know, when I started, I knew exactly who each person was. As a person. And so that was very clearly in my head. And I also knew what the first scene would be and what the last scene would be. And I had to figure out how to get from point a to point B. You know, when I started doing this, Um, I assumed that Nora would be in the juvenile criminal justice system and, that's not actually the case. Sometimes I, I get readers who, who say, how, how could a 13 year old get into a position where a district attorney would charge her as an adult? But that's just the reality of the criminal justice system. And it happens, um, all the time that DAs will charge children as adults. In fact, in certain States like New York, and I think California as well, if a 13 year old commits a murder, they're automatically tried as an adult.

Brett Benner 16:54

That's crazy.

Kristin Koval 16:55

Yeah. Um, It, it may, I could be wrong in California. It's hard to keep track because criminal laws are different in every single state. In Colorado, you can still charge a 13 year old, but it's discretionary. And I know that in New York, it's still mandatory that a 13 year old gets charged as an adult in the case of a murder, because that's what happened in the case of that 16 year old. stabbing of the Columbia student by a 13 and a 14 year old, maybe two years ago or a year ago. I can't remember what it was. California may have changed it, but at any rate, so I had to sort of revise the, um, logistical beats to account for, nor proceeding through an adult system and not the juvenile justice system. And as far as the, the human aspect of it, some of that developed as, as time went on and I tried to figure out who each character was. And there were some characters that, I maybe wrote to be a little bit less likable initially. And then as things went on, I realized I like them a little bit more than that, and I needed to change some things about how I was portraying them.

Brett Benner 18:02

I I was so curious. If there were some characters that you, and I want to get into some specific characters in a second, but I wondered if there was some characters that you held more sympathy for than others, Sympathy, or maybe, maybe that's too strong, maybe empathy, maybe a bit more empathy for than others has that.

Kristin Koval 18:23

Well, let's talk about the people I had the least amount of empathy for. And I, I have no, I have no idea why I, I didn't like David ever. And he, he's actually not a bad guy, he's just a complicated guy.

Brett Benner 18:34

For, for our listeners or viewers, David is Angie. Yes. Yes.

Kristin Koval 18:38

David is Angie's husband. Um, and a lot of readers have said to me, I don't like Angie at all. And I don't, dislike her the way other readers do. Um, I think she is a complicated person like David, like Julian, like Martine, they all have done these complicated things and it comes out in different ways and at different times. And so, yeah, so actually there, there's nobody that I have, um, no empathy for because I, I wrote all of them. Might have the most empathy for Julian.

Brett Benner 19:10

Okay. So I want to talk about Jillian, but I also want to talk about Angie, and, and I have to say to all of you readers who didn't like her, I mean, let's, like, give Angie a break for a moment, okay? This is a mother who, you know, her daughter, Her son, she has a mother that she's dealing with who has Alzheimer's. Her son had juvenile Huntington's disease. Um, there's a lot going on.

Kristin Koval 19:37

Yeah. She has, she has, she has a lot going on and she gave up her, her dreams to care for all of these people in her life that need a lot of care. and also, you know, going back to forgiveness, it's complicated and, and everybody deals with. Things that happen differently and forgiveness doesn't come right away or sometimes at all for some people.

Brett Benner 20:01

Yeah, I found her very sympathetic and I, I was with her journey so much of the time. It's such an interesting thing because, you know, the book shifts back and forth as you said earlier in the past and in the present. And you managed to couple like a love story here and a very complicated love story. Um, that gets threaded through here that's. tinged with tragedy, which becomes a big part of it for Angie. Now you talked about, working in this sweat shop effectively. So you lived in New York for four years you were there.

Kristin Koval 20:32

Um, so I went to law school there and then, uh, that was, that was three years and then worked there for four. So I was there for seven years total,

Brett Benner 20:39

but did you grow up in Colorado?

Kristin Koval 20:41

No, I grew up all over the East coast. My husband and I moved out to deliberately. We did things backwards. Instead of getting offered a job and moving someplace, we said, where would we like to live for the rest of our lives? And then found jobs.

Brett Benner 20:58

Okay, so I'm curious. And I'm pretty sure I already have the answer to this, but, one of the things in the, book is these characters, Angie and both Jillian, growing up in this town and then moving to New York and the past and, and then kind of the return to their small town life. Are you more of a city person or an open space person?

Kristin Koval 21:19

I'm more of an open space person. I mean, I would move back to the East Coast Or, or get a place there or something. If both my kids ended up there because I love my children would like to see them regularly. But I love to be outside. And in fact, that was one of the driving forces of moving to Colorado. I love central park. I think it's this great, beautiful park in New York city, but I like to be in the outdoors. With nobody around me. I love to hike and ski and bike and trail run and, Colorado doesn't have as many people, which is, you know, kind of nice. It's a little quieter. And I love New York and, you know, both of my sons happen to be there now. And so it's, it's fun to go there and, you know, get to eat all the fabulous food everywhere. And, it's so vibrant and, I just love the life there. It's, it's so diverse in every way, shape and form. It's a great place, but I like Colorado

Brett Benner 22:17

and Utah. I ask that too, because As I've gotten older, I lived in New York for a few years and, you know, I'm in Los Angeles now, but we're moving, um, in the next, eight months, I've been in big cities and I just want sky and trees and less people. And so again, I, you know, I, it was just watching Angie's trajectory in this, this character of this young woman going to New York and following her dream of being an artist. And, I personally, I tapped into that. I was an actor when I came out of school and that's absolutely what I wanted. I loved New York, but I was just ready to go. And so listening to you talk and I, I noticed on your Instagram, you, you have a lot of pictures either, you know, outdoors and, and, um, there's something about that, that I'm so looking forward to.

Kristin Koval 23:05

Well, congratulations. I think you'll really like it.

Brett Benner 23:07

I'm excited. Um, I I'm so digressing, all right. So Julianne, He's another, I loved this character. Can you talk a little bit about him for our, for our listeners? Who he is now and kind of who he was.

Kristin Koval 23:20

I can say that Julian goes through a big transformation. and I think like most of us, um, I think that Julian starts out. As somebody who is very focused on being a skier, and, you know, going to college. And initially you know, when I started to write, I thought, maybe he will, you know, be somebody who is headed to the Olympics or be that good or something like that. And as we know that, that kind of goes by the wayside for certain reasons. And he ends up being a character who is very devoted to, as a lawyer, making sure that his clients have the best representation they can. And it was really important to me to portray him in a way that would also help readers understand how important criminal defense attorneys are. I think sometimes they get a bad rap because A little bit in our country, even though we say somebody is innocent until they're proven guilty to some extent, I think that, you know, in the media and in social media, when somebody is accused of something, They're guilty. The accusation essentially renders them guilty. And that's what innocent until proven guilty was meant to deter. But the attitude is still out there. And so it was important to me that Julian be the kind of criminal defense attorney who gave His clients, the best chance to be treated fairly within the criminal justice system.

Brett Benner 24:48

And their relationship, he and Andy's relationship is just, it's so interesting to me. When they first come together, you know, as it slowly gets revealed, everything that exists between them it's heartbreaking in a way, because, I don't know, maybe I'm just some sappy romantic thinking, Oh, my God, I want them to, reconnect. I want them to, be together. Which just might be the romantic in me.

Kristin Koval 25:12

I initially, I wanted them to, to reconnect as well. Um, and that just wasn't how it happened in the end. Um, and that also that didn't seem fair both to his current wife or to the circumstances under which they parted basically.

Brett Benner 25:30

Jillian's mother Martine, she is just a terrific character too. I just thought here's this woman who is a lawyer, but she understands her limitations. She's older. She, by all, stretches the imagination. She probably should just be retired, but she's asked to do this. She's just an incredible spitfire.

Kristin Koval 25:50

And, you know, it's really funny because when I first started this, I didn't realize how much people would connect with Martine, and I have had a lot of people say to me, why don't you just write a whole book from Martine's point of view? Um, people really like her.

Brett Benner 26:04

She could be a complete standalone. I don't know if you've even started to germinate on, what you might do next, but do you think that stick to something that has. Uh, legal area to it, or do you think you'll expand beyond or if it has it not gone far yet?

Kristin Koval 26:23

Um, no, it has gone that far actually. So I, I wrote another book before this book and that one was had zero bits of, of legalese or legal, legal issues in it. I, I just, and that was more of a satire. But that was me learning how to write. So I think that, that book's gonna stay, on my computer in a hidden file. I probably will have something legal related for my next one, although, you know, even with this one, although there are legal aspects to it, that's not the main point.

Brett Benner 26:53

It's not, no,

Kristin Koval 26:54

and I, I didn't want it to be the main point. You know, we talked a little bit about Angie Kim and her first book, miracle Creek. Mostly took place or largely took place in a courtroom and I love that book, but I also I don't know that I have the experience to do that kind of a legal novel. Just because I was never a criminal attorney. I never practiced criminal law or spent enough time with it to. To do that as well as Angie did. But at the same time, I was a lawyer for a lot of years and there are a lot of interesting things in the law to talk about and address. So I, I kind of already know what I'm doing. I'm I've got reams and reams of notes for my next novel and about 30 or 40 pages written, and it does have some legal aspects to it.

Brett Benner 27:44

and I think for, Our listeners and our viewers, the thing about this book is it's not any one thing. I mean, I would hate for somebody to say, well, it's a thriller. It's not. There is a mystery component to it, certainly. But I, I looked at it as the same way I kind of view, Liz Moore's books

Kristin Koval 28:02

which I love. Those are great.

Brett Benner 28:03

Yeah. But they're literary novels that certainly, the God in the Woods had this mystery about it, but it's not what I would call a thriller, and neither is this, there is a, a mystery component to it, but it is, like I said, there's a family story, there's a love story. It manages to be and convey a lot of different things, which is really, really

28:24

cool.

Kristin Koval 28:25

Um, you know, I love to write. I absolutely, I, I, I never want to shade any part of my legal career. Except I, I didn't really like being a corporate lawyer. It was not a, wasn't really a good match for my, my personality. But I love to write. You know, when you're a lawyer, you look at your watch all day long in six minute increments. And, I don't do that when I write. I just sit down and if I'm in the middle of something, I'll write for 15 or 16 hours and not get bored and not feel like I have to do anything other than eat a lot of chocolate. Which I do because chocolate's a food group. I really enjoy it so much, so I'm, I'm so lucky to get to do this.

Brett Benner 29:05

Yeah, well, it's like, it's like the character of Angie in the book, who's a painter. It's, it's your painting. It's your art. It's your creative expression. And, and honestly, we're all the luckier for it. it's your painting. It's your art. It's your, it's creative expression. And, and honestly, we're all the luckier for it.

Kristin Koval 29:24

Oh, thank you.

Brett Benner 29:26

Well, this has been wonderful. And, again, Penitence, it's fantastic. So go buy it, get it from an independent bookstore. If you can, I will also have the book linked in my bookshop. org page. Congratulations on all of this. I will say this is a fantastic book for book clubs because there is so much to dissect and talk about. So, So get it, talk about it. I'm so excited to see what you write next.

Kristin Koval 29:56

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me and I, I wish you the best of luck with your move and I, I hope that I mean, it seems like your, your house is, is certainly okay. And I hope the last couple of weeks haven't been too traumatic for you.

Brett Benner 30:10

It's been strange. It's really strange. The mood, the first few days, the clouds, the, you know, the cloud cover, the smoke cover, and, what's been very, Heartening is the city's response to each other and the way that everybody has come together and really shown up for each other, which is, you know, to make a cliche statement heartwarming and but it really is because it makes you really, uh, It affirms the goodness of people and that we all are here for each other. And that's, and that really, I think it's so important. And, that at the end of the day, it's, you know, it's not politics. it's not about this or that. It's just that we're all human. Everyone is just helping each other. And I think that's the most important thing. That's been, if there's a gift in this in any way, that's really been it. But, anyway, thank you again.

Kristin Koval 31:02

I really enjoyed talking to you and I love your show. I've listened to a lot of the episodes, so.

Brett Benner 31:06

Oh, good. I'm so glad. All right. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Enjoy that gorgeous Colorado Air. Thank you. And space, and I'll see you.

Kristin Koval 31:15

Thank you.