Paul Rudnick, What Is Wrong With You?

In this episode Brett sits down with author Paul Rudnick to discuss his new book, "What Is Wrong With You?" They talk about the fun of writing a wide variety of characters, tech bros and technology, as well as the best junk food for the sweet tooth in your life.

Paul's website:

https://paulrudnick.com/about-paul-rudnick/

Paul's instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/paulrudnick/

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Transcript

Brett Benner 0:01

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner, and welcome to another episode of Behind the Stack. before we get into this week's interview, there was a few books coming out I wanted to talk about before that. I just wanted to, touch base. Has anybody seen adolescents yet on Netflix? It's a four episode limited series about a young 13-year-old boy who's accused of murdering one of his classmates, a young girl, and what happens and the brilliant thing. Beyond just some phenomenal acting. And this kid in particular is so good who, who, who had never acted before this. But, it's also shot as a one shot, meaning the camera never stops. so it's truly some incredible filmmaking when you watch it with that in mind because the camera never stops moving and there's some. Episodes that take place, for example, the second episode takes place at a school and just the constant flow of kids moving in and out and teachers and, it's really a marvel, but it's, it's a really thought provoking, interesting show. So the other thing I checked out this week was the premier of, max Mush, Nick and David Cohans, mid-century modern, their new comedy set in Palm Springs, which is. The golden gaze about, three, elderly gay men who move in together. and it's funny, I'm gonna try it out for a little bit, and see where it goes. But Matt Bower is in it and Nathan Lane. Linda Lavin, the late great Linda Lavin as well. So, it's fun. If you need something, a little light, you, you would definitely enjoy. All right. Some books that are coming out today, that have piqued my interest. The first is this book, sour Cherry by Natalia Theodoridou It says, if you love Kelly Link, Angela Carter and. Carmen Maria Machado, then Natalie Theodore, do is your new favorite author. It is an updated version of the Blackbeard story and it just looks really interesting. It's a very, cool cover as well. So that's one of the things I'm looking forward to. That's out today. The other thing is there's a new Emily Henry book called Great Big, beautiful Life, which I'm sure we're now gonna see everywhere, probably into the summer. because all of her books are such huge hits. There's also a new book by Olivia Blake who wrote the Atlas six, which I haven't, haven't read yet, but this one sounds kind of intriguing. It says from the New York Times bestselling author of the Atlas Six comes the story of three siblings who upon the death of their father, are forced to reckon with their long festering rivalries, dangerous abilities, and the crushing weight of all their unrealized adolescent potential. So I might try this one on audio. The other thing that, sounds really worth getting for me at least, is Joan Didion's notes to John, which were a series of, letters that she had written to her husband, John John Didion. And so this is gonna be a big deal. Onto our author for today. I've been a a Paul Rudnick fan for a long time, and so when his new book, what Is Wrong With You, came out, I really wanted to sit down with him. He is, I. So funny and, some of this stuff I had to cut, just for time, but when I was listening back to him in our conversation, he's just really hilarious and incredibly charming. A little bit about Paul. He is an author, playwright, and screenwriter. His plays have been produced on and off Broadway and include Jeffrey. I hate Hamlet, regrets Only and the New Century. He's the author of seven books, and his writing has also appeared in the New Yorker, vanity Fair, Vogue, Esquire, and more. His screenplays include Adam's Family Value, coastal Elites. I. In and Out Sister Act and the film Adaption of Jeffrey. He's the author of four previous novels most recently, ferreal Covington, and The Limits of Style So I hope you enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I am so happy and thrilled to be sitting down today with Paul Redneck, whose new book, what is Wrong with you? It, it's Paul. It's so good. It is so, so funny. So congratulations.

Paul Rudnick 4:35

Oh, thank you so much.

Brett Benner 4:37

Before we launch into the book, I just had, I, I had a couple things I wanted to ask you about. You that I kind of discovered, but also I, you know, some of our viewers or listeners may not know about you. So I know you were born in Piscataway, New Jersey. were you an only child? I.

Paul Rudnick 4:53

Nope. I have an older brother, Evan, who's great, who also grew up in New Jersey and once did try to convince me he was twins, which I believe for several days he would do this by running around the house and reappearing, claiming he was now his twin. But I was very, I was only 18 at the time. At one moment I might have believed I had two brothers, but there was only one.

Brett Benner 5:14

How much older is he?

Paul Rudnick 5:16

About two, three years.

Brett Benner 5:18

Now, did you always know you wanted to be a writer?

Paul Rudnick 5:20

I did. Which was odd because I saw, I remember my mother had a composition from when I was like a third grade. I think when I had said that I wanted to write plays and I had never seen a play. I just liked the sound of the, of the occupation so that I, and it took a while for it to settle into the various forms it took. But yeah, I just was always drawn to it and thought, yeah, that, well, also, it just seemed like the dream job.'cause you make your own hours. It's all, imagination run rampant. And I loved a job where it was constantly surprising where it wasn't the same routine every day, which is scary'cause it's a challenge. It means, oh my God, you're always at the edge of the cliff. But yeah, it was, it was always the, the goal.

Brett Benner 6:05

So then you went to Yale and what was your major

Paul Rudnick 6:07

I was a drama major, which confused people because there's the illustrious Yale School of Drama, which is a graduate program, totally different. And anytime there were about four undergraduate drama majors. So it was a little bit sad, but it let me totally invent my, my own curriculum. But I did get to take courses sometimes in the drama school and met all sorts of wonderful people. Like when the playwright Wendy Wasserstein and. Sigourney Weaver and Meryl Streep had just left. And one of my dear friends is a, a brilliant costume designer named William Ivy Long. Yes. So I got to have, what was so amazing was to meet people who meant it, who were going into the arts as a career. And that seemed very daunting and worrisome to my parents at times. But, and to me. But it was it was a great environment to to begin in.

Brett Benner 6:56

so then tell me about the, the transition. What was your first paid writing thing?

Paul Rudnick 7:01

Actually, the very first, but early on I was hired. This was back in the day when magazines were everywhere. I was hired to attend the auction of the Joan Crawford Estate, which was a very special response, journalistic responsibility, and what I love was one of the items being auctioned. Was a dusty plastic bag full of her used false eyelashes, and it was a security guard who could not stop laughing, who had to fold up this plastic bag, and people were bidding on it. And I remember there was a little girl. Who was using the auction as a publicity opportunity. She was in one of the many revivals of Annie at this point and thought it would be good for her to be photographed next to like Joan Crawford's waist basket and Joan Crawford's Pepsi Styrofoam cooler. So it was fascinating and I remember the guy who won the eyelashes. Had his own house cleaning service.'cause I was fascinated as to, okay, what, what are you gonna do with them? Are you gonna wear them? Are you gonna create a little shrine? Yeah. But he just, you know, revered Jonas did we all so that was, that was for a magazine, I think called New Times, which quickly went out of business. And for a while, anytime I wrote for a publication, it would fold. So I was the, the angel of death. But that was probably the first time I was actually paid, which was a milestone where I thought, okay, I can technically on my pathetic tax return, call myself a writer.

Brett Benner 8:28

I I, I'm thinking about those, the two things again, like where the eyelashes ended up and if he passed this man, passed them down to somebody. And then also, I wanna know where that. Little girl ended up the actress who was standing next to all the pictures. I wanted you to button it and say she was Sarah Jessica Parker, or something to that effect. No, I wonder where she ended up.

Paul Rudnick 8:49

Well, although there was, and in a real sort of old timey show business moment when we were having auditions for Adam's family values for the the sequel, which I wrote, and there was the role of a sort of snarky. Full of herself, little girl. And there was a young, very young, like 12-year-old actress who pretty much had the role, but then we had a very nice, incredibly talented little girl who was reading with the other candidates. Hmm. So the, the 12-year-old who was very confident and very assured and came in wearing like a little 40 dress and little high heeled shoes, and it was. A very la moment. Every time she read a joke she liked, she would look at me and wink and I thought the poor thing, you dunno, winking at the liner will get you nowhere, especially winking at the screenwriter, right? The thing was the other little girl. It's so good. The one who was just hired for the day as the reader that we gave her the part. So it showed that you never know how things will turn out. Yeah. So you should always hope for the best. And both little girls have grown up to be genuine actresses, so it all ended well, but it was but yeah, it's, it's a tricky business.

Brett Benner 10:00

Yeah. No, it is. Your career, you're, it, it's, you're so incredibly prolific Between all of your books, all of your plays, all of your screenplays, you've done television as well. You've, you've hit every kind of medium. Is there one thing you enjoy more than others?

Paul Rudnick 10:16

I would say, especially right now, books are, it for me are sort of ground zero. Mm-hmm. Sort of, I'd written books earlier, but I hadn't quite gotten, wrapped my brain around them. I felt like, no, this was not what it should be. And then it was during the pandemic, actually, when I started writing my last novel, LL Covington and the Limits of Style. When it just sort of erupted and I really just sort of held on for dear life and I thought, okay, either this is really good or I'm completely deluded. But it was so exciting and I felt that I was finally able to talk about any number of subjects that I'd approached before in the other mediums, but never. Fully expressed and it was so exciting for me. And the same thing happened on the new book on, on What Is Wrong with You? Because it felt not effortless, but it felt exactly right. It was like, no, these are the characters I wanna talk about. These are the themes. I didn't predict anything. I didn't outline anything. It just was there. And that's what writers dream of, so, and everything. Yeah, it really, that's. Where I feel most, most confident and as if I'm really delivering to, to the reader. And while I love working in theater, working in movies elsewhere, and I never say no to anything, it's clearly, but you know what? I just, I find there's something, there's a richness there also. There's, and there's a selfish element of control that, that's what I was gonna, yeah, your every character, your every scene. You also, there's a little less anxiety. When I would write screenplay, there was a moment on one of the Adams movies where I'd written in the script Gomez and Morticia enter a decaying French restaurant. And then a few months later, I went to a sound stage in la. There was an entire decaying French restaurant that had cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was glorious, but I thought, oh my God, couldn't we have used this money to send some kids to college writing a book? You could first of all, fully create that decaying French restaurant and populated and manipulate it, and you don't feel that you're, you know, adding to the national debt. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's just a sidebar. It just I just feel like, okay, everything else I've been working on up till this point in my, in my life and my career has kind of led to this. There's a fullness that, okay, this is something I can deliver now. So, yeah. Wow. So right now it's, it's, it's books all the way for me.

Brett Benner 12:50

Is there character that you most identify with of what you've written so far? Or, or is the closest to you?

Paul Rudnick 13:00

Oh, I find that, and part of what actually, again, is so exciting about writing novels is. Everybody that when you,'cause I thought it is, you need to bring each character, not so they become identical to your own personality or goals, but that you feel you know exactly where they're coming from and even if they make horrible choices or evil ones, you have complete empathy for them, which is something I know actors go through as well. You never know you are playing. The, the villain and you see the world from their point of view. And so, yeah, so what I was, especially, what is wrong with you? It's got a very large sort of cast. It's got a big range of personalities, which was part of the, the excitement for me, I am. Mm-hmm. You know, what their, their gay characters in as well, which are a little closer to my own experience, but they're straight guys, straight women, everybody. And it was so much fun to, to assemble that group. So yeah, I never, there's ever any, you know, there's a, I think a certain tone and a, a kind of voice that's always mine, that's familiar that, that I hope readers can enjoy. But it's, but I love becoming everyone else. it's one of the things that I learned very early on that, you know, when I tried writing Autobiographically, I wasn't that interesting. You know, most people aren't, well, even most writers aren't. It's like, yeah, there are some people who've been through such drama or such accomplishment. But yeah, I want to hear. Exactly your life story. I am not one of those people. What I love is exploring every other life, you know about. Not saying let's just be in my apartment for 500 pages. That seems a bit limited. So so yeah, I just, I like going everywhere.

Brett Benner 14:43

Oh, I love that. Okay, so for our, our listeners and our viewers do, do you have an an elevator pitch for what is wrong with you? What is

Paul Rudnick 14:51

wrong with you? Well, I could tell you it began when I read this random blog post by a stranger. That was the most depressing thing I'd ever read. He really, he was at some tipping point in his life where he just hated everything he was doing. He hated his lack of a relationship and it was just heartbreaking. And on the other hand, you thought, what would bring a person to share this on top of everything, but so I just sort of was a little spark. The book ended up having nothing to do with'em, but I thought, okay. How could I justify any form of optimism for that person, and especially in terms of his love life, I ended, the book is a real exploration of every form of romance. You know, couples, widows, divorces, gay, straight, you name it. So that it was to take a look at. I think a lot of, we live in a very jaded and justifiably cynical age, and I thought, no. Okay. How do you make romance believable in any kind? How do you let the reader not feel like a sap for, for going there, for believing in at least the possibility of love? So I guess that's kind of the heart literally of the book is about the possibility of love with a big question mark after that. And beyond that, I really wanted to do. Kind of a social gathering to create a party for these characters where they all end up at a destination wedding on a billionaire's private island off the coast of Maine. And there's such a varied group that it's so unlikely they ever collide. And that's what was exciting for me, and I hope fun for the reader is saying, okay, I find when it all comes together, I get. Where these people overlap and what they might have in common. And the title just came from the fact that it's something that a shocking amount of people, including my, my partner, say to me all the time, just stare at them and say. What's wrong with you? It's a high compliment, but it's really useful. And I find that when I first was asking people, should this be the title, they all loved saying it out loud. So I thought, oh good, that's a good sign. But yeah, so it's kind of about what's wrong with all of us, you know? It's just there is so many times in anyone's life where there are, there are no good choices, so you just, you know, make the leap.

Brett Benner 17:10

Yeah. Well, and it's interesting too,'cause I was saying the title out loud, and depending on how, you know, if you put the emphasis on the wrong sable, it could really change the whole meaning of it. It can be earnest, you know, it could, you know, the, what's, what's wrong with you. But, but no, I think it, it's definitely more of the what the, exactly. Yes. Yes. That's it, which I, I I love that so much. Now, for characters? Who did you start with? Was it Rob? Like Rob is the to me, Rob is kind of the central person in the book.

Paul Rudnick 17:38

Yeah. Yeah. That is who it started with, with a, with Rob, who's, whose part, very beloved partner, died a year earlier. And he's trying to figure out how and if he can go on, and that was, yeah, I thought that's, it's, it's really rich term, especially if you're a comic writer.'cause I thought I didn't want in any way underplay the, the trauma and the tragedy he was experiencing. But on the other hand. He's a very smart guy with a great sense of humor, and I wanted to see how he digs himself out of this particular hole. And he's very quickly fired. He gets everything thrown at him, and it's kind of the the trigger for the book where it's, and, and I also wanted the book to, and this is a form of love in a way to explore friendship. And in this case it's between a guy, his trainer, Sean, and who's been a TV superhero. And Rob, who's an editor in downtown New York. I. And it's a lasting friendship for many, many years. And in a way, the core of the book, and I thought I hadn't really seen that often. So it's yeah, it's very central to the story. But yeah, Rob was where it began.'cause I thought, let's take the guy in the most trouble. And he certainly is.

Brett Benner 18:47

I think it's interesting between this and feral Covington. and what I loved so much about that book and I, there are tinges of it here too, because that was another story that although it has all of your trademark wit and humor. There was a, there was a somberness and a very serious element to it as well. Yeah. That, and part of it is about loss. Again, this loss of a partner, which is in this as well, but you kind of toe the line very well between. It's not, it's never maudlin, it's never indulgent. It's just this is what happened and this is how I move forward or attempt to move forward. And I really appreciated that.

Paul Rudnick 19:24

No, that's, that's exactly what I was aiming for.'cause also that's, that's life as we know it, that it's you know, life does not divide itself into the comic and the tragic e both of being curled at you every second of your day. And if Right. That's, that's why sometimes when I, I'll read things or see things that are unbelievably somber and only somber. I can even enjoy them and I can appreciate the, the skill at work, but I always think there's, this feels walled off in a way. I thought. It's not that humor is an escape or a cheat, it's if you don't include it, it feels like you're not giving a complete portrait. So it's always odd when I. And all the, it's like meeting someone who's that gloomy, you know, when you go every second. Right, right. Some of my favorite people, people born through no fault of their own without a sense of humor. And so when you make a joke, you realize they thought you meant it. Yes. Yes. How do you cross the street? You know, how do you navigate life when you don't are unaware of the comic? But, and I don't blame it because I, I don't think they.

Brett Benner 20:35

No, I, no, I don't. And, and those poor people are you a visual writer? And by that I mean, can you visualize these characters as you're writing them? I, I'm thinking specifically of Steve. I mean, he's so hilarious. And your description of him is so great, and I kept thinking, I wonder if you had this particular vision of this man in your head, this action hero, this kind of, he's kind of a, he's like a sweet lunk to me. Yeah. He, he really is the kind of guy who's not threatened by anyone's, like the sexuality thing. He, you know, he'd actually probably be thrilled if a bunch of gay guys were into him because it's just, you know, it's what's expected.'cause it's just him.

Paul Rudnick 21:15

Oh yeah. No. And it find, well there were people, I know a lot of guys like that, especially in Manhattan, where there are these incredibly confident straight guys who are great with, with women, with gay guys, with everybody, because, and that's part of why they like living in a city because they welcome, I. The variety. It's not seen as anything to be feared. And they're kind of delightful also, because if you go to the gym in New York, you, there are straight guys who love having a fan club, whether it's, you know, single women on the next machine or all the gay guys going, you're really gay, aren't you? But,

Brett Benner 21:50

and, and hoping desperately they're gonna be the one to turn'em.

Paul Rudnick 21:53

Oh, exactly. Well, every that's a universal fact, which I kind of love about. Yes, because you must have noticed whenever there's. A new, handsome young movie star, male movie star, the people who will claim that person is gay. Are you gay men who somehow imagine they have a shot on straight guys who wanna eliminate the competition and women on the. Will totally deny anyone who's ever gay because they just, they wanna believe that they will someday marry that person. That's right. They think, well, is he 100% gay? You know, maybe he was just having a gay day. Right. It was

Brett Benner 22:30

experimental. It was college. Exactly.

Paul Rudnick 22:34

And everybody makes their own rules, as you could tell, from, you know, what they were wearing, who they're married to, you know, whatever. People say, well, he's married, he's got two kids. You go. Only two, but Sean in the book is just, he's one of my favorite characters ever. Just'cause he is so appealing and he shouldn't be, you know, he, except I says terrible things, he's completely uncentered. He just, and he's got a real sort of gregarious quality. He loves how helping other people and seeing how they behave, which is very useful in a, in a personal trainer in any. Profession where you're dealing with other human beings, that they're most vulnerable all, all day long. He's like a shrink or a doctor. So he he was just so much fun to write'cause I didn't have to worry, which is another goal with this book was to say, okay, let's let these people be completely, you know, unfettered, politically, just unfiltered and let it rip. and Sean is, is certainly. the leader, of that particular movement. But yeah, he was right.

Brett Benner 23:36

Well, and first of all, I, I, I love that Linda, who is his, who is his ex-wife at the start of the book. She's so fantastic too. But she's almost his kryptonite because she, she initially is not charmed, you know, she's charmed by it. She certainly, you know, under Yes. Where she understands his appeal, but she's so smart and, she also probably thinks about limitations to a certain degree, but something that you had just said, which I, which I loved so much about this book is and I, I'm sure it's a generational thing. I feel like I'll be canceled, but, it's because of the kind of some, you know, these characters are a little bit older. They're from a little bit of a different time, so it's not as much about, they're aware of the political correctness of everything. At the same time, they are who they are, which is why for me, like you introduced this character of Isabelle who is. Rob's boss just brought in young millennial who is such the representative of everything that, well, it's basically everything that the right is fighting against right now, but she is woke culture to the nth degree. I, I literally, I went downstairs and read the entire passage. Of the description of Isabel to my husband.'cause I was like, you, you have to hear this because it was so spot on. Go. Everything about how she went to school and how she approaches life and You have captured the zeitgeist in that character right there, that character. I mean, it is, it is. So talk about her for a second. I just like, she's so funny.

Paul Rudnick 25:12

Oh, she was sort of delicious to write because yeah, she's that weird point at which the far right and the far left intersect because they're both watchdogs and they're both, yeah. Invested in canceling people. Yes, and, and this is true at most publish publishing houses, they will now hire people, sometimes at entire staff to go through every manuscript word by word for any possible offense or any possible inauthenticity, which is a good way of. You know, handicapping every writer on the planet. And there have been books that I know that I was just reading about another one where when people have released you know, early galleys of the book and people mm-hmm. Online and bring up such fervent objections that the book is withdrawn or canceled altogether. And I think that's very dangerous. But what fascinated me about Isabelle was her. Overwhelming confidence that she was right about everything. Yes. And I think it's something that happens with all of us when we're very young and when we have, yeah. No, no, no. Every older person especially is misguided. They will never understand this. I will be doing them a favor by getting them off the face of the earth. So it's and also, and she's not, that, she's not hateful in that way. I just like to, I think of her as somebody who's. Again in her early twenties and has been catered to a little too much, has never heard the word no. And just feels that her word is law, which is a, the most dangerous way of behaving anywhere on the political spectrum. And she and Rob, because I know people who have, especially in the arts, who've had to deal with this sudden new wave of. You know, persnickety political correctness where, nope, that's not funny. Take that out. That sort of thing. And you could see with standup comics, oh my god, they're great luck, but I think there's been a certain pushback and a certain sense of, no, come on. You know, there's no danger in hearing just about anything. So you are allowed to disagree. You're allowed to aggressively disagree. You're allowed to speak out. You're allowed, God knows to post on every platform, but you're not allowed to erase. You cannot say, right, this book should not, or movie, your place should not exist. That seems like. True fascism. So so Isabel was kind of, you know, it's one, again, one of the, the joys of being a writer is you get to create someone like that who's in certain sense is just monstrous. And then you can redeem her and you can also have fun with her because she's, she's one of those people who's not, she's very suspicious of humor. She thinks it's a way of sneaking. You know, inauthentic opinions into a manuscript. So it kind of makes her a, a, an open wound in a way because she, she's just so easy to, to sort of criticize. So I hope the book gives, you know, present a kind of rounded picture of her. But yeah, she's, she's something new on the, on the scene. It was great to write a younger character, especially because I think generational differences are always fascinating and entertaining because you've seen it's the where the title, both on both sides of the divide. People going, what is wrong with you and I don't get it? And how did you turn into this? And why won't you listen to me? And everybody, yeah. At any age is capable of that attitude.

Brett Benner 28:31

No, I see it every evening at the dinner table with my children. Well, they're older now. I mean, my son is 21, so he's in, he's in college and my daughter, she'll be, she just turned, I was gonna say she'll be, she just turned 18, so she's graduated this year.

Paul Rudnick 28:44

Kids, they're not young adults that age are becoming, and I don't mean politically conservative, although there's, there's some of that, but they're becoming incredibly responsible. I mean, fiscally responsible, motivated, yeah. They, and I think they were of May, some of this may have come from growing up during the pandemic and time of great upheaval. They're very aware of issues of safety. And it and the future, and it's very admirable and a little sad at times because you think, oh my God, you're 22. Why are you so focused on 15 years from now on your IRA? But on the other hand, you think, God, these people are so much more responsible than you know, anyone I knew at that age.

Brett Benner 29:26

this is interesting because this all comes back to tech and one of your characters in this book is this tech billionaire Tron Mein, who is I kept thinking, okay, now I. Which billionaire tech person was he thinking of when he wrote this guy? But he's much more compassionate. I mean, he's much more Melissa Gates than, I mean Yes. Although

Paul Rudnick 29:49

every bit is insane and odd.

Brett Benner 29:52

Yes, yes. So he is kind of the catalyst, not the catalyst, he's the, the center of this big wedding that everyone's going to. And Linda, who is the ex-wife of Sean, is going to be marrying him. And I of course I immediately was like, well, it's, it's apple. It's apple because of all the tech, the tech and all the phones and all of that kind of stuff. Who was he for you? Anyone in particular? Just kind of Amal amalgam of all these different,

Paul Rudnick 30:16

all those guys, you know, the Mark Zuckerbergs, the Steve Jobs, the Bezos. But any Elon certainly, but these guys who have undeniably whatever you think of them. Created something very brand new in the world and marketed it and profited from it. But there's also a weird blankness to a lot of them, and it's not just they're all nerds who dropped out of school, although most of them are, but they're there isn't that certain weird. Incel a dead eye thing to them. And I heard on the other hand, they're at the complete center of our culture right now. They are the guys we look to and who fascinate us. And you think, okay, first of all, what's it like to have that many billions of dollars? What's it like to command. That sort of empire, to have that many sheer employees, to have that many people waiting for your next product launch. You know, and when I go into the Apple store, I'm kind of thrilled, you know, that it's, yeah, I like that stuff. And so it's it's new. And with that interested me endlessly and, and to create a character like that, who was that far from almost anyone's experience because they are so powerful and so strange and can indulge. Both the best and the worst of their personalities. You know that they are people. Yeah. When you have, when everyone around you is, works for you and is being paid by you and says yes to you constantly, that seems very dangerous and. Into a way to create the strangest sort of army. But but yeah, but at the same time I thought, no, if, if I don't write about that, I'm leaving out this enormous chunk of the culture. So so Tron Mestin is somebody, he's also, he's genuinely self-made in that odd way where you think he invented himself, including his name from the ground up and he has friends and family. But always had a remove. I mean these guys are always one man bands ultimately.

Brett Benner 32:14

Yeah.

Paul Rudnick 32:15

And and I love the idea of their followers though. The people who need the latest iteration of the iPhone every three months and who are very willing to throw out.'cause I'm like the last adapter. I'm the person who's like saying, well what's this newfangled, you know, Blackberry thing. Yeah. Oh my God. The fact that the mouse on my new Apple desktop recharges itself. And you don't have to put in batteries.

Brett Benner 32:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Rudnick 32:44

I just thought, okay, this is like Alexander Graham Bell. This is technology ever because I don't have to buy batteries. And I thought, first of all, it's nothing they should have done much earlier, you know? But it, it's also, it feels very magnificent whenever a tech person does something that actually helps you, that makes things easier. Yes. It's sort of like when I read, was reading about AI and they say now all the people who spent all those years learning how to code. Maybe their skills may be obsolete.'cause coding always sort of awed and terrified me.'cause I thought, no, no, no. Even if I was born yesterday, I would never know how to do that. And now the idea that those people, so that anyone can do ai. So it's, it's not just a, it's a brave new world every 30 seconds. So it's yeah. So that, and and Tron is, you know, the white hot center of that kind of deck. Also, I imagine it must be. Scary in a way.'cause it's sort of like being a movie director where everyone's waiting for your next big thing. Yeah. And you know, the way, I'm not saying it's good that Steve Jobs died young, but on the other hand it was a. A good way out of having that kind of pressure on him. When was the last new really new thing? What, what thing will change all our lives? And that's what Thrown Is after. And he's also at really after trying to control and codify love. Which is, you know, anyone who's created a dating app, anyone who's created you know, a se a a, a survey that will, could, an algorithm that will somehow connect people that seems both tempting. You know what, if you could meet the person of your dreams who might happen to live, you know, three continents away with the, you know, in, in less than a second, but it's, it also seems. Highly unlikely, but that's what Tron is after. And it certainly, I thought, okay, that that's a conceivable. Next horizon for the tech world and for, you know, a Google.

Brett Benner 34:46

I mean, we're talking about it now and I'm thinking five years from now when you know, I'm gonna call you up to say, get, did you see the latest that's coming out of this like, you know, love band or something to that expect, you know,

Paul Rudnick 34:57

completely.

Brett Benner 34:59

I love it'll be called, you know. Yeah.

Paul Rudnick 35:02

Well, you know, when, when all the, all the platforms that go at it that are now being retired. And, you know, every, the, all the, from the olden days from Friendster and and MySpace and everything, and you think that stuff was literally three days ago and now it just feels like a horse's carriage. You know, that it's it's fascinating that the speed of, of tech and it's, I mean, it's as a writer and just as a, as human, it's exciting.'cause I think, oh, okay. I'm so glad I lived through both. The, the olden days where once in a while, I think, okay, what would've happened? I also think this in both a novel, whenever you write a play or a movie. There always used to be the need for a telephone on stage so that the mate pick it up in the opening moments of the play and say, well, the master isn't home quite yet. You know, we're all waiting for the train from Larchmont, you know, all of that stuff, and fill you in on all this exposition and you don't have to do that anymore, you know, and that everybody can look at their phone and the other person just found out. So it's it's very handy. It's also changes the rules of, of. Creating a plot and, and characters. So, and that's also fun to reflect is even though I know some writers eliminate all tech, especially from novels,'cause they think, oh, it'll all be outdated in two seconds. But I took the other route of, okay, if you invent your own tech, if you create a whole fictional world and a guy who's at the the head of a fictional empire, that way it doesn't date because it's all invented. And it's just speculative. Yeah. So it's and yeah, it just seems too. Juicy to neglect.

Brett Benner 36:38

No, he's, he's great. And again, like w with all these characters, he, he's written with empathy and he comes across that way too to make him. What we kind of identify now with all of these tech bros again in our current culture is quite a different thing. I wanna veer completely off the book for one second and just ask you, I know you have a penant for junk food and and sweets. What are your go-tos? I'm a big, sweet person.

Paul Rudnick 37:10

Well, if I turned the screen just a few inches, you would see a plastic bin full of milk, chocolate, non perils, which Wow. I know, I know. They're sort of like my Adderall. Because they're just there all day long and, you know, I have that idiot concept that they're little. How could that be, you know, fating or in any way bad for you or that, or, you know, a total sugar bomb? But I mean, my, I have a hall of fame, you know, which is, is pretty much begins with MALS because they Wow. Every food group. Milk chocolate, marshmallow and vanilla wafer. You know, there's nothing I don't like about an alamar, but I'm pretty, as long as it's crap, I'm happy. You know I, well, I saw someone eating Fig Newton's the other day and I just had to rip them to shreds. I. That's not a cookie,

Brett Benner 38:04

that's a vegetables. No, it's not. Yes,

Paul Rudnick 38:06

exactly. So get that outta my, don't pretend you're having visitors. The, the only person who ever sort of defeated me and the best intentions. I had a wonderful agent years ago who knew about my sweet tooth, although I, like every organ in my body is sweet that way, but she, I love Sara Lee. Chocolate Brownies. Which are, you can still get, they're not as basic as they once were, but it was brownies with chocolate frosty, and they were j and it, it looked like a steak. It came in a,

Brett Benner 38:34

I remember that.

Paul Rudnick 38:35

And a rectangle and it just, you just wanted to stick a fork in it and put the whole thing in your mouth. But she once invited me for dinner and she had thing t tray of sourly brownies, which she had then added another layer of canned frosting to. And then on top of that, another layer of rainbow sprinkles. These are all things that I worship, but the, it became like a. Like looking at a tree after you've chopped it down, you know, all the layers or the, you know, in the Grand Canyon when you could go back to the Jurassic period. And I just, it actually made me ill, and I felt terrible saying that to her because she put such effort into it and only wanted to please me. But I thought, no, that's, that's the line I don't cross, you know? But individually, I will eat all of that. I will eat canned frosting out of the jar with my finger. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Anyone who cannot open a jar and immediately create a smile face on the top of it, is not a human being as far as I, that happens with peanut butter too. But no, I was very proud of myself recently. I, I never liked Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. Now I do. And I Oh, interesting. Oddly healthy, even though they're not, but it was, I, I felt I was really having a life change. It was my Are you buying the, are

Brett Benner 39:52

you buying the crunchy ones with a little bit of chopped peanuts in it? Maybe that's it. So it feels a little bit more hardy. You

Paul Rudnick 39:58

are lucky I'm not in the same room.'cause I would slap you right now. Crunchy peanut butter. Is bad Peanut butter, crunchy peanut butter is peanut butter with gravel in it. It's not, I never like cry. I thought, ew, that's a step backwards in human evolution. It's supposed to be creamy and smooth. So no, I do not like, it's also like when they, oh, I noticed it carve the other day. This is really getting creepy, but I love CarVal that they do, you know, there's a biscoff cookies. They're really? Yeah. I don't, I'm not into

Brett Benner 40:30

biscoff,

Paul Rudnick 40:31

but they made a new carve line of cones and little dishes where they crumble up biscoff cookies and then roll the ice cream in it. And I thought, I like all the ingredients, but don't do that. That feels like an ice cream cone that's been run over, you know?

Brett Benner 40:48

Yeah, it's been dropped on the frown

Paul Rudnick 40:51

crunchy. So I have rules, right?

Brett Benner 40:56

There are standards. There are standards, Paul,

Paul Rudnick 40:59

that must be, but that's what's nice. I have found when people who are aware of my dietary habits, they will instantly start sharing. It's like, no, no, no. There's a reason why Nabisco and all the great companies are thriving.

Brett Benner 41:15

Yeah. Well, I imagine I would love to see when, if you throw a party, you know, it's, no one's bringing you wine, it's just various boxes and donuts and all different kinds of

Paul Rudnick 41:25

they do. I am, I'm easy to shop for. Although there, there was a moment. This is a, a reach, but when on the second Adams family movie where the producer Scott Rudin and Barry Sun Andell, the wonderful director went to Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch'cause he was gonna write a song for the movie. It's a whole other story. But he made them wait three hours and then brought out a bowl of peanut m and ms. And I thought that's what Michael Jackson serves it. Neverland, I'm totally on his side. I love the idea that that was his idea of, you know, un

Brett Benner 41:58

Yeah. The only thing, it's so strange to me, because with all those children, I immediately go to, what about allergies?

Paul Rudnick 42:06

Well, that's because you're a parent.

Brett Benner 42:08

Have you ever had the, the m and ms that are the peanut m and ms, but not the actual peanut? It's like the peanut butter in the m and ms. Have you had those?

Paul Rudnick 42:14

No, that was sort of the Reese's thing where

Brett Benner 42:17

it was a little bit Reese's.

Paul Rudnick 42:18

I'll get there, but don't push me. You know? I,

Brett Benner 42:20

yeah, okay. It's a little slow. You, you're, yes, that's right. You've just got, did the peanut butter cup. You might need a little that. That's very close. So I get it. Exactly. I get it. But

Paul Rudnick 42:28

that make me a dream.

Brett Benner 42:29

Yes, exactly. It's something to look forward to and it's there. And you know, until the next incarnation

Paul Rudnick 42:34

I might that, that someone will hand me one and it will kill me.

Brett Benner 42:37

Yeah, that's exactly right. And then you're like, I should have been doing this at, I should have been doing this at Neverland. Well, this was so wonderful. You are just, you're so delightful. And the book, please, everyone get the book buy independent if you can. But, but it's really terrific. You will laugh your ass off, I guarantee it. But thank you so much for being here today.

Paul Rudnick 42:58

Oh, thank you. No, I had such a good time. Thank you so much.