Virginia Evans, The Correspondent

In this episode Brett sits down with Virginia Evans to talk about her new book, "The Correspondent". They discuss a trip that changed her life, the gift of correspondence, and the absolute perfect actress to play Sybil. 

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https://www.instagram.com/virginia.l.evans/

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https://www.virginiaevansauthor.com/

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:00

Hey Everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack. I hope you all had a great week. It was a busy lit week here in Los Angeles with the LA Times Book Festival. A lot of authors descending. I got to, see Jiamin and Andy Tang who wrote the fantastic book Cinema Love, which ended up winning the LA Times book festival award for best debut novel. So I was thrilled for him and got to see him briefly, so that was really nice. I also got invited to an event for VE Schwab for her new book, bury our Bones in the Midnight Soil, which is coming out in June about a trio of female vampires. It looks so good and she is just. So fun and delightful. So that was cool. A big book week on releases this week. A few of them I wanted to talk about with all of you. The first is. Leanne Zangs, Julie Chan is Dead, which is a debut thriller for fans of Bunny and Yellow Face about a young woman who steps into her deceased twins influencer life only to discover dark secrets hidden behind her social media facade. I think that one sounds. Really great. And then also, um, Chuck Wendig who's, you know, thriller horror writer, his new book, A Staircase in the Woods, about a group of friends investigating the mystery of a strange staircase in the woods. In this new mesmerizing horror novel from the New York Times bestselling author of The Book of Accidents. The last book that I wanted to talk about before we get in today's is called the Lilac People by Milo. Todd, which is a. A really fantastic book, historical novel, set in World War II around Hitler's rise. Milo Todd will be. On the podcast later this week, so look for that. We had a great conversation, so really enjoyed it. Which brings me to my last new release, which is also our guest for this week. The book is the correspondent, the author is Virginia Evans. Oh my gosh. I, I love this novel and I'm gonna let you hear the conversation to, to, to see how it very rapidly came on my radar and how this conversation today happened so quickly. But Virginia's fantastic. The book is so good. So without giving anything else away, please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I'm thrilled to be sitting down with Virginia Evans today, whose beautiful new book, the Correspondent, I was saying to her before we started, I got a copy of this and last week read it. Well, I got to the weekend and it was, it was I think Friday night and I was down to like the last 50 pages and I came into the bedroom and my husband's like, what's wrong with you? And I was like, I'm reading this book. And I just like, like. It's a, it just is really like touching me and moving me. And he was like, okay, so cut to next day. I'm reading the rest of the book in my office, like audibly sobbing, like audibly, like doing like that, like when you kind of can't get your breath. And so I finished and he was in his office next door. He's like. What is the matter with you? And I was like, it, it's like, is it that book? That's still that book? And I was like, it's still the book. And it, it's really, so anyway, I, I reached out to you immediately, as you know, and I'm letting everyone know because I was like, I have to talk to her. And I don't usually do that kind of thing so quickly. I like, I'm, I'm very kind of organized. I look weeks in advance, but, first of all, kudos and I'm so happy to your marketing team that they even reached out to me. So I got my hands on it and I'm so happy that you were, you said okay, I can totally sit down with you next week. So thank you to everyone and involved and most of all for you for a writing it and b sitting down today. Oh yeah. Very long.

Virginia Evans: 3:57

So happy to.

Brett Benner: 3:59

So before we launch, we launch into the book, I I just had some questions, so about you and about your journey in terms of getting to this point, because I know it's been a journey. but you, you got your bachelor's in English literature at James Madison.

Virginia Evans: 4:14

That's right.

Brett Benner: 4:15

And then you had a, a small detour where you started a family, correct?

Virginia Evans: 4:19

Yes. Yes. Small detour. Had all my kids.

Brett Benner: 4:24

Did you and your husband meet at at college?

Virginia Evans: 4:26

Yeah, we, we met in undergrad. We didn't marry right out, but we married young. And I mean that could have been a huge mistake because we were so young, but it wasn't, and he is wonderful and is, I mean, the book is dedicated to him because. I couldn't have done the last 20 years if he hadn't been sort of like over here pushing me, you know, pushing me, pushing me and support and supporting, you know, supporting us. And, I mean, I was always working odd jobs, but he was really holding down the fort for us. But yeah, we met in undergrad and then we kind of, after a few years got married and then we've kind of had a long, in between, so I've been kind of writing all the way through.

Brett Benner: 5:02

Wow. And then got a master's in Philosophy and creative writing at Trinity School in Dublin. Oh, that, so explain this to me. Yeah. Explain this major. First of all, philosophy and creative writing. Like, what does that mean?

Virginia Evans: 5:13

Yeah, it's, I think it's their, what is ithere, an MFA in the States.

Brett Benner: 5:16

Okay. It's

Virginia Evans: 5:17

that. Okay. It's just the same. It's kind of the same. It's like a, writing workshop degree, but it was a crazy, it was a crazy story. we'd been married for uh, I guess about 10 years at this point, or eight or 10 years. Our children were three and six. And you know, my husband had this career. He wasn't really wild about, he was selling medical equipment. It wasn't well suited to him. I was always working kind of day jobs. And then I was, I would write, so I'd get up in the four 30 or five kind of my set, my alarm. I would get up and then I would write until it was time to like wake the children up, go to school, go to work, whatever the thing was in the various years of all this. And so we were at a point that, we were just, I mean, we were happy and, and our children were healthy and we loved each other, but we just hated, we just hated what it was like. He was working all these hours, didn't love his job. I was slogging and sort of like tucking writing, which is what I've always done, and which is what I love to do in these early morning hours, like in the dark and then going to do jobs I didn't want to do. And, we sort of had this moment where, we sort of sat down and I said, what are, what are, why are we doing, what are we doing? Like why are we doing this? What are, what is the, how did we get here? And we sort of started to pick apart, like, you know, we bought a house and then it was like. A dog and then a kid, and then a bigger car, and then another bigger, you know, slightly bigger house and a little bit of a nicer car. And then, you know, just kind of like those little incremental increases and, but. To what for what it felt like we, you jump into this river and the river's current just takes you away and is that your whole life? Right. And we just had this moment where, I remember and I wrote an essay about this that was published, published in the Irish Times, but we had this moment where he, he was putting the children to bed and I was downstairs and I was cleaning the toys and cleaning at the end of the day, and he came downstairs and he just sort of fell into the couch and I said, let's move abroad. I. Like, let's sell the house, quit our jobs, give everything away, sell it to Goodwill. Take the kids off school. Let's, let's move abroad. And he was, he kind of said, how would we, why, how would we do that? And I had already sort of been looking at, um, writing programs abroad in English speaking countries. I knew he wouldn't go for it if it was like, we have to learn a foreign language and with our two small children. I, it, it is a long journey, but we did it. It was the craziest, most like countercultural thing we could have done. All of our friends later told us they thought we were insane to make that decision. And you know, it's kind of saying, it's kind of for forfeiting everything you've like acquired or like by burning it all down, you're sort of saying, okay. I'm, I'm like deciding that that's not, this isn't our top value. What is our top value? And so then it was like, we wanna relearn each other. We wanna go somewhere together.

Brett Benner: 8:30

Mm-hmm.

Virginia Evans: 8:30

To, I mean, truly like wanted to live outside of America. We had traveled and just found European culture to be more suitable for our family. And so we lived in Ireland that year, and it was, and

Brett Benner: 8:40

all of us now

Virginia Evans: 8:41

know, I know I think everybody does now, but, um, yeah, that was, it was just such a, and that. Oh, when we lived in Ireland, it, it changed our lives. Changed our lives. Oh.

Brett Benner: 8:53

That is so amazing. I mean, first of all, how brave and, and second of all, I. Just, you know, what a leap of faith, and it also is a testament to the both of you and your relationship mm-hmm. That you're like, because many relations c couldn't stand that, you know, they, it would be like, the stress of it would be the end of it. So Yeah, that's, yeah. No, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, what do they say? Even like, they'll say some of the most stressful points of a, of a relationship are either, um, moving a death in the family, like a death of a parent, or, um, you know, children, all of this like big. tent poles, but like you took a lot of'em at once and said, let's try to do all of these things at the same time.

Virginia Evans: 9:32

It's true, and I mean we sort of have this amazing our, we've always had this sort of amazing symbiosis, my husband and. Me and my husband and I, my husband and me, I'm still not great at

Brett Benner: 9:44

that. The both of you?

Virginia Evans: 9:44

Yeah. The, the two of us. The unit. And he's a very sort of even, practical, just reasonable human being. He's so reasonable. He's so kind. He's very gentle and I am just always going in a thousand directions and I am always kind of thinking. We could do this, we could do this. So we could do this. But the amazing thing, and my husband is a true feminist. I mean, the amazing thing is that he has always said, okay, okay, let's try, let's do, let's try. I'll try. He just has given me all the dignity and like all the space to, to be this like wild thinker. And that's, I mean, I could not have. Try it again and failed again and tried it again with writing for 20 years. If I had had a partner that was sort of like, what are you doing? And

Brett Benner: 10:36

Right.

Virginia Evans: 10:37

Be making money somewhat. Give up

Brett Benner: 10:39

his hobby.

Virginia Evans: 10:40

Yeah, give up his hobby. Right. I really do think that's probably what a lot of people are dealing with and if it had been that, A, I wouldn't have married him and b, I wouldn't have lasted this long probably.

Brett Benner: 10:52

How amazing. How amazing. It's also that kind of thing. A little bit of opposites attract and Yes.'cause I have very much the same and you and I seem very similar and, and, and our husbands seem very similar, but, okay. So you went through this process and so we were talking beforehand. So you had a number of things that you had, you know, that kind of stop and started things that hadn't got published. You went through quite a bit before landing on this, correct?

Virginia Evans: 11:14

That's right, yeah. The, kind of, the long story short is, you know,, I had kind of written a few novels and then. In 2015, I self-published a novel, but, and it did okay. But I mean, mostly I think people, I knew copies. I was really, I was. I had taken out other books, the traditional route hadn't done well, hadn't even been able to get an agent. And then, with this book, I, I think it's a good book and I liked it, but I, we had no money and I needed a new computer and I, mm-hmm. And I thought if I sell enough pub, self-published copies, I can afford to buy a new computer. So that's what I did. I, my goal was to sell enough. Copies through the self-publishing process to afford a new computer. And I wanted, and I needed a Mac because I, I use a Mac, so they're expensive.

Brett Benner: 12:03

Yeah. Um,

Virginia Evans: 12:04

and then after that I wrote, another one. And that book really did almost, almost make it, I had a, an agent with that book and, it was, it kind of fell apart in a really sad way, but that also failed. And then when I was in Trinity, part of my coursework was to be working on a, a novel or a short story collection or, you know, whatever your pursuit is. And I was writing a novel then, and I started it there and kind of. Finished. It took me probably two years to write that, that book. Mm-hmm. And that book is how I landed with my current agent. She's, wonderful. And she, she's just exceptional. And I, and I'm so, so thankful for her. And, she found me because of that book and all of this is, you know, every time it's sending out. Over a hundred, you know, agent queries and cold calling. I mean, you're just, and I didn't know anyone in this industry. I never knew, knew anyone who had been a writer. I didn't, I really didn't know any, I didn't know what I was doing. I was like buying the writer's Almanac, reading like how to query, like how to write a query. Yeah. I mean, it was just like nobody in my family has any, there's just no, history of this in my life. And so. so with that book, that book is, a book that I love and I'm really proud of, and I hope someday it comes into the light. But, that book didn't sell that she was trying to sell that during Covid. I think it was a hard time to sell book, and it's a very literary kind of, historical, it's kind of a Vietnam era. Americana Southern Book, which is very much related to my family history. And then after that book wasn't selling, my agent had this amazing way of never telling me, this is not working, but sort of, sort of like giving me this hope that maybe still this could sell, but maybe you should start working on something else. So I started to write another novel, not the correspondent. it was Covid and we had come back from Ireland because my father-in-law was sick and we, we had to come back because my husband was helping to care for him it was just a tough time. and so we were living in this little rental and, you know, it was one of these new nineties, kinda like nineties, two thousands built and it's open concept and there's like, oh yeah. Not a door. I mean, yeah, there's nowhere you can like, oh my, it was just horrible. And I had no nowhere to go. And my children were, you know, they're, they're kids, they're great, but like, so always just right here.

Brett Benner: 14:42

Yeah.

Virginia Evans: 14:42

And there was nowhere to go. And so we had this closet and I shoved the clothes around and I shoved a desk inside the closet, this tiny desk, inside this tiny, horrible closet at this run. Were Harry

Brett Benner: 14:54

Potter, basically. Yeah.

Virginia Evans: 14:55

Truly, truly. And I would get up at four 30 and I would write, and I, and I had started something else, and then I just was like, I was depressed and sad to be back from Ireland. I never wanted, I didn't wanna come back. It was really painful. I was in such a low place and then I scrapped the thing I was writing and I started writing the correspondent, and it was not for anyone. I was not going to give it to my agent. I just was, I think I was just like, I. Trying to get everything outta my body. That was, yeah, hard and sad. I think it's probably why I had the courage to do things like take on the VO voice of Joan Didion or things like that, because I wasn't planning on showing it to anyone. and I don't even know how my agent Hillary got her hands on it, but she did. I think she probably just said, send me a little bit just for fun. And then she thought, she thought I should try to. Take it to the next step. So I did. And um, and then at first when she took it out to sell, it really wasn't getting any interest at all. And then all of a sudden, one, one editor was interested and that made another editor be interested. And it ended up being Amy Einhorn who bought.

Brett Benner: 16:07

Wow. Wow. Okay. So now we're at that point of do you have an elevator pitch for

Virginia Evans: 16:14

Yeah,

Brett Benner: 16:14

for the correspondent. Okay, awesome.

Virginia Evans: 16:16

I, I'm working on this. It's Sure. I'm trying to workshop this. Um, the correspondent is. Sybil Van Antwerp, that she is the correspondent. And this book is a puzzle to me. It's a puzzle and it's when the puzzle is finished at the end, you have a portrait of Sybil.

Brett Benner: 16:35

Mm-hmm.

Virginia Evans: 16:36

But all the letters are like the pieces of this puzzle that you're kind of putting together. And you know, they're not coming in order, but you're sort of, it's sort of throughout the book, I think she's coming into like a clearer and clearer relief. And then I hope, and it's all in letters. But it's through these letters, um, that she writes and receives, and by the end of the book you come away and I think you know who she is, but I think what makes you turn the pages is that you're trying to complete this puzzle and get the clear picture and understand.

Brett Benner: 17:11

Yeah. and it's interesting hearing you describe it that way, and it's so true in terms of a puzzle because, you know, like you said, it's an epistolatory novel, which I want to ask you about that and, and how that decision, came up for you. To start with, I'm just curious, why that format? I, I, I have to say I loved that format for this, and it had been so long since I had read a book. I actually was going through and I was like, what was the last book I read? And I was like, okay, it wasn't the color purple. It wasn't, you know, what was it? No, it, no, I think it really was, you know, it was, it was janice Hallett, who wrote this book called The Appeal, and then she's got a series of like, there're these mysteries, but they're all done through correspondence between the people in the town. Okay. And that's the way it's done. But that was like, and she's a series of them, but that was a while ago. But yeah. What made you choose this format?

Virginia Evans: 18:00

That's a great question. You know, there's this, I think there, I think it's Zadie Smith originally said this, but she said, I'm always writing the book that I wanna read. That's like, what I'm writing is what I want to read. And I always think about that. And that has always been true for me when I've started a new project and I had finished reading 84 Chairing Crossroad. Have you read that?

Brett Benner: 18:20

No, I know. It's

Virginia Evans: 18:22

great. It'll take you, it'll take you an hour and a half. It's very short. It's it's letters, it's written, it's letters that cover, I mean, I think they go over about 25 years, but they're. Very short, and it's just very few, but it's this correspondence between this academic in New York City and a bookseller in London, I believe. And I had finished reading that book and I closed it and I just wanted, I just wanted it, I. I wanted it to never end. But it was complete. I mean, the story is perfect and it's complete, but I wanted that and I, had also just finished reading The Uncommon Reader by Alan Bennett. Do you know that one?

Brett Benner: 18:57

It's, yeah. No, I know Alan. I, but I haven't read it. No. Okay. It's,

Virginia Evans: 18:59

um, it's,

Brett Benner: 19:00

you're giving me all these great,

Virginia Evans: 19:01

oh yeah. And these are both really short, like very quick reads. and that book is not epistolary, but it's kind of got a similar energy of, of, um. I don't know, was I wanting just to like, feel something but not like sensational or too dark or I just wanted to like, feel something. And, that was what I was wanting from and was getting from those books. And so when I read Air 84 Charring Crossroad with the letters. I always have this kind of psychotic thought, like, I could do this when I read, like I read like Yeah. Types of wrath and I'm like, I can do this insanity. Like I think that's kind of an insanity. But I read her book. I mean it's a classic. It's just like, not even touchable, but I thought, I wanna, I can do this.

Brett Benner: 19:47

So it's a gentle madness. Okay, so then my next question is in regards to Sybil. Let's, let's talk about her for a second. Um, you know, Sybil has had three children. She was a, she's a divorced mom. She's in her early seventies. She has a brother. All of these people begin to get revealed through the course of the correspondence that she has, which was also so interesting because I would find myself going back and saying, wait. Again, it's such an interesting way to, to read something if you're not used to this format, because you are just getting what's going back and forth and slowly, slowly start to parse out what's happening as the correspondence continues between these people. Yeah. Which is, which is really kind of cool. You know, it's so funny because I was reading and some reviews and different people We're talking about how prickly that Sybil is. And yet I didn't necessarily find her that way. I dunno what that says about me. And part of it is, like you said, by the end, everything of who she is makes so much sense. But also I just kind of looked at her as, you know, this, she had spirit. That's the way I viewed her. Mm-hmm. To be perfectly honest, she also reminded me a little bit of my mother-in-law, who is absolutely prickly. So she seemed tame in comparison, and I thought of my mother-in-law a lot when I was going through this. In fact, I, I I was like, I have to send this to my mother-in-law, um, because I'm, because she is a woman who writes letters. She does all those things.

Virginia Evans: 21:19

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 21:20

Are you a letter writer?

Virginia Evans: 21:21

I am. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 21:22

You are.

Virginia Evans: 21:23

I have. I have always been, and I have sent, and I mean, I've sent some crazy letters, but I have received the most beautiful, I mean, you can't, it's, it says this at one point in the book, people are always surprised to find that I. People write back. I mean, people write back. I think it's such a novelty now. I mean, it was such an, it was such an institution and such a necessity, you know, until it wasn't. And then yes, it's all sort of been abandoned. And I try not to read reviews, but I see some of the kind of conversations online sometimes, like through Instagram and, um, some people will say, I mean, most people will say, I have, I, I've never written a letter or I. Can't think of the last time I wrote a letter. And I think, to me it's, for instance, I'll, I wrote to Anne Patchett like 10 years ago when I read Commonwealth, and we've been, we've been corresponding ever since. She and I write letters and the first time I wrote to her, I said. This is what I loved about your book. I write to authors when I love their book usually. And, um, this is what I loved about your book. This is what I, this is what moved me, spoke to me. I mean, I wouldn't have written her a letter if I didn't like it, but I did love it. Right, right. And, you know, she wrote back and over the years, we've just maintained like an ongoing, I mean, not frequent, not as. much as Sybil writes, but you know, just here and there when her books come out, I'll write to her that I liked it or whatever, and she'll write back. And when I had my agents, my agent fall through with the, that hard time before we moved to Ireland, she was really, you know, kind to me and helped me sort of navigate some of that. And, so just people like that. My husband bought this amazing piece of art for me, during Covid for Christmas, and it's this, lino cut and it's of a fishing boat. And the man who does these lino cuts is on, I think, on the coast of England and Cornwall and like 85. And I mean this art, you cannot believe how beautiful it is. And we bought it and he sent it to me. I wrote to him and I said, I receive this as a gift. I think it's stunning. I, you know, it's like Sybil says, you sort of say what you wanna say, you ask a question, it creates an ongoing conversation. And it does. And he wrote back this, I mean, I have all these letters in my, you know, he wrote back, I was gonna

Brett Benner: 23:48

ask if you save your letters.

Virginia Evans: 23:50

Yes. And he, you know, he said, thank you so much. It means so much to me. And, for the first time, I don't have an apprentice and this is a dying. Art. And when I, and I'm 85 and I'm gonna die. And then who will do this? I mean, and you just, there's just so much life out there that I think is fascinating.

Brett Benner: 24:09

Yeah. There's a, there's this quote I wanted to read, and it comes late in the book, but I'm not ruining anything. Um, it's, it's just, it's Sybil saying, through correspondence, I could find inexplicable relief. I could write to anyone. I could take the time to think through what I wanted to say, practice, rewrite, and get it exactly how I wanted it. It was so much easier for me to write than it was to have a conversation. And then she says later, when I was young by writing letters, I found a framework that made living easier, and that has never changed. Do you find that at all for yourself?

Virginia Evans: 24:45

Yeah, I do. I think, I actually do feel that way. I think I, there's parts of me that are reflected in Sybil I do not, I am a much more able person in social situations than she sort of is, but I have always found that there's a. Sort of a piece to be able to sit quietly at the desk and write the letter and say exactly what I mean to say. And if I want to say something meaningful, If I wanna say, say something that, I want this person to really hear me say the right way. I wanna write it, and then I wanna send it to them so that they can hold it and read it. And like a good example of this is when our graduation from my master's got pushed because of Covid. And when it got rescheduled, it was a couple years. It was like a year and a half late. Mm. And so my husband and I flew back to Dublin for the graduation, and it was. I mean in the top five exper moments, just sort of, thing things that's ever happened to me. And, um, the Dean of students he talked about what it was like for master's students whose, time in school was, was waylaid and, and sort of wrecked and put sideways by Covid and how we had to move online and how it was just like so grueling and, and he stood up there and I sat there just weeping because he was putting all these words to. What I had, the grief I had felt over not only having to cut the program short, but having to leave Ireland and move back to the states, which I was like not prepared to do. And I wrote to him after, I wrote him this letter I wrote notes about what I wanted to say. I thought about it, the whole plane ride home. I just thought, and thought, and thought, and then I sent him this letter. I actually sent him an email because I wanted it to reach him. Sent him the email and he wrote back and said, in my whole life, that is the most generous letter I've ever received. And I just think that's what, that's what correspondence is. I mean, when you receive a really well thought out, it's best if it's in your mailbox, but, or in email, I mean. The written word, it's time. It's like you can have it forever.

Brett Benner: 27:08

After my mother, she passed away during Covid. My sister had gone back to clean out her, apartment and she came across a box and it was filled of with letters from my father.

Virginia Evans: 27:21

Oh.

Brett Benner: 27:21

Um, and some of them, and I have all of them now because I actually thought about trying to find some way to record the letters and put pictures of them when they were young together because. You know, you have an idea about who this person is based on what you're seeing, and especially with your parents, right? Mm-hmm. But to see him, my dad courting her and writing these letters while he was, I. Some of them when he was in the war, some of them after they'd been married and, and she was pregnant with my sister. Mm. And first of all, his penmanship was so beautiful. Oh.'cause that's the other thing about it too, is looking at a letter and how someone actually, the physical writing mm-hmm. And, and their penmanship. But he had beautiful penmanship and he would, he was saying things like, my Darlene, Darlene Sweet. Girl. Like when it was not even my wife always, you know, and he'd go through and he'd be like, kiss that child of mine and I'll see you soon. And then, and then, you know, don't be talking to other men while I'm gone. You know? He was playful. Yeah. And it was this side of them that I never saw because, you know, by the time I grew up, they'd been together for so long. It was, you know. everything that goes, 50 plus years of marriage. But, um, but it was just, it was such a beautiful thing to see but I do, I think it's such a lost art and there is something so absolutely, so beautiful about it and for people who do it. Yeah. I loved hearing the Anne Patchett story, because I wanted to know if as you went through this, if in fact you did write to authors a and I. And how you decided on who you decided, like I personally, I, first of all, I'm like so many people obsessed with Anne Patchett, so I loved that Anne Patchett was one of the, the authors that she wrote to. And for our listeners and our readers in the book, Sybil is a, is a big reader and generally when she's corresponding with people is always asking, what are you reading again? Which I loved. But how did you make the decision on the authors that she chose to? write too.

Virginia Evans: 29:20

I would say almost all I went through and had to make a list of all the books that are referenced in the book, for my team at, at Crown. And I was sort of looking at the list and every, almost every book I would say maybe other than. Three or four. Every book has meant something to me or has been a book that I loved or hated but really made like a impact on me. And I think there are certain, I mean, I think it's okay to like, mention certain books that are mentioned. Sure. You know, The Anne Patrick connection is obvious because it really changed my life to, to hear from her and then for her to give me the dignity of an ongoing relationship over the years. And obviously like she ended up blurbing the book, which I didn't know about and I didn't know she had read it and I didn't know she was going to read it, read. So I was really surprised by that. In a great, I mean, obviously it was like the surprise of a lifetime. But, you know, certain books, they all pretty much all meant something to me. and the ones that really get like a push to the forefront, um, like there's, there's a letter late in the book from an author and, this is just a curiosity point, but I could only write from the voice of people who are no longer living. So the only authors that write back are no longer living. But they would've been during the time of the book, so I couldn't write in the voice of, you know, CASBO Ishiguro or something because he's still living. But I was able to write in the o other voices, because they are not, so that was like a legality thing, which I figured out early on. Thanks to my mentor, he told me that. but the books that really get a prominent position, are books that really have. It meant something to me and have altered my, you know, really altered my life or my soul. And, I won't say what the book is, but the kind of last book that's referenced, is a book that is, is one of my all time favorites and all of my all time favorite books are in are mentioned in the

Brett Benner: 31:28

God I love that. So yeah, it's one of them. As I was sitting in my office the other day and was just reading this and sobbing, I looked across at my bookshelf'cause I was thinking about the books that she was talking about. And there is one of them towards the end. That's a massive tome.

Virginia Evans: 31:42

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 31:42

And, um, I could see it sitting across from me, which I haven't read it yet. It did make me look at that, and I was like, I've gotta get on this. And that's again, the feeling that the book kind of evoked for me because, and it's a testament to you and your writing of this character that she feels so familiar by the end. And because of the intimacy of the letters, you feel like you're kind of prying into someone's life in a way that's different than a normal narrative.

Virginia Evans: 32:09

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 32:09

In a way that's telling you or showing you something you feel. so for anyone who loves the written word and love stories. To be getting this ongoing, back and forth about all of these different kind of books that she's recommending or talking about. It's like, you know, sitting with a good friend who says, who says exactly this? What are you reading? What are you loving?

Virginia Evans: 32:33

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 32:33

And it's such like a. A bonus point. I haven't seen a finished copy of the book, but I almost want there to be like, these are all the books that are referenced in the end. Did they do that?

Virginia Evans: 32:42

I just got one.

Brett Benner: 32:44

Oh my God, that's so beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Virginia Evans: 32:49

But no, they don't list the books. But I can send it to you.

Brett Benner: 32:52

But yeah, no, I can certainly go back. It's easy enough, but Wow. There's also so much about this book, and I don't wanna get into specifics. Again, I'm trying to be very general because I think it's about discovery. But beyond her, her family and her relationship with her children, which is a point, and there, there is a central family story to all of this because a lot of her correspondence, frankly, is with family members, with her brother, with her, with her daughter, and her son. Um, the one thing, the one thing I will say, this is not a spoiler, but in the book, her kids get her a, a kit to what, what is called, the Kindred Project, which is effectively 23. And me, um, which I loved this, and she does it. And what kind of happens after she almost reluctantly takes this test. So I don't want to get into what happens because of that. Have you ever done this? Did you ever do 23 8? Okay.

Virginia Evans: 33:39

Well, I've never done it, but I wanted to write about it. So I did the free trial.

Brett Benner: 33:46

Okay.

Virginia Evans: 33:46

I did it with Ancestry. I did like the free trial of ancestry.com. I didn't do, I didn't take it as far as she takes it, but I just dabbled'cause I needed to understand how does the interface work like. Is there a dashboard? How does this work? Yeah, it was amazing. I wanted to keep going but like budget cuts in my family, but I, so I didn't do it, but I might once, if this book does well, maybe I'll come back to

Brett Benner: 34:11

And I don't know how Ancestry works. Is, is it a similar thing? Do you have to, I,

Virginia Evans: 34:14

I mean, I kind of based the Kindred project on my experience with Ancestry. Yeah. And I mean, I mean it's fiction. I mean, I just made up Yeah. I don't know

Brett Benner: 34:22

how it works. No, it was very convincing and immediately it was like, I hadn't even thought of Ancestry, but I was like, oh my God, this, this whole thing. It's, it's fascinating, especially for a woman like that Yeah. Who is, is pretty much so controlled to do something that's throwing caution to the wind, so to speak. Yes.

Virginia Evans: 34:36

Yeah. That aspect of. engaging with that. I mean, this book was a. Joy to write. I just, I, it was so fun and it was just wonderful. other books I've written felt hard and like a slog, but this was not that way, but that aspect, that kind of, that aspect of her story, which, you know, a lot of the book kind of goes back in a way and you learn the past, but then there's this, a lot of stuff that's happening right now in her life when she's in her seventies. And that aspect was, is and was kind of the part that I loved. The most probably.

Brett Benner: 35:13

Yeah. And it's a fascinating thing I think with anybody who's watched anybody including all of that, just people generally aging. I've had somebody who is older is contemplating not only their past, but dealing with so much of what's happening in the present in a world that's changing so rapidly. Yeah. Um, just technologically, just in terms of, the way we talk about everything, the way we talk about problems, the way we talk about, mental health, the way we talk about all of it, is changed so much and that we've given words and voice to things that, you know, when people were younger, they would never have had. Mm-hmm. The Lexicon so to speak. Yes. It's a really interesting thing.

Virginia Evans: 35:57

Yeah, I agree. And you said earlier that Sybil is. Evocative to you of your mother-in-law, which is also true for me and my mother-in-law was like a big inspiration for someone. That's what I was gonna ask you is

Brett Benner: 36:11

someone, I

Virginia Evans: 36:12

love her. I mean, I love her and, and I, it was funny, I I was glad what you said that you don't think of her as prickly, because I also don't think of her as prickly. I think of her as very direct and that's it. very sort of, of her generation. Yeah. And sort of like. I mean, my mother-in-law was raised, you know, kind of in a, without a lot of means, very practical. She's the oldest child of five and she just, she just, I mean, she's not the same as Sybil and it's not that they're the same, but there's some things about Sybil that I sort of learned that way of being from my mother-in-law who I love. And um, and I think to me, when I have heard people refer to her as. Prickly or they were really turned off by her at the beginning. That's fair. Everybody, you know, everybody's allowed to, yeah. No book is universal. Um, but I just love that quality in a, in a woman. I mean, it's really risky to be that way now, you know? And, and certainly Sybil. Needs to learn and grow. And there's things that she says and does that are inappropriate and wrong. And, you know, hope in most cases. I think she kind of wises up and can say she's sorry, but there's just something very authentic to me about women and women at that age, you know? Not, it's like expectations in the world are changing really fast and sort of what's appropriate and what you can say and what you can't say. And everything's moving really fast and, and I, I've always felt like I can give way for space to learn, like learn and grow and, you know. Yeah. And so that was, I felt like if Sybil was totally appropriate all the time, I wouldn't really believe. I wouldn't really believe.

Brett Benner: 38:06

Well, it would, it would, it would make her soft and sentimental to me in a way that wouldn't earn what comes later. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, and again, like I think of the way, it's very much the same, I think of the way my. Mother-in-law approaches everything. And my mother-in-law is 95. Hmm. And she, until she was almost 90 years old, would drive from Pennsylvania to, she had a home up in Nova Scotia. No. And she would drive to Prince Edward Island over a series of days visiting friends along the way. But that kind of spirit is what's got her to 95.

Virginia Evans: 38:43

Mm-hmm.

Brett Benner: 38:44

There's been a can do attitude of, you know. She was never like, well, you won't, you won't go to the gym. You, you dig a irrigation ditch in the backyard and you make it productive. You know, there was no with, with everything. That's how she would approach everything we always used to joke, I'd say my mother-in-law was 85 pounds wet. And, um, she's this petite little, I used to call her Nancy Reagan.'cause that's what she reminded me of. She was extremely well dressed and kept herself together. And Oh, yes, extremely well read. Six o'clock was cocktail hours, seven o'clock was dinner every night. And she would make it. And and so. Reading all that, I was like, well, Sybil is, is this, and

Virginia Evans: 39:23

they'd be best friends.

Brett Benner: 39:24

Yeah. And so I guess what I would say to anyone going into the book, if they do feel that in the beginning, have patience because People are willing to change. And that's the other beautiful thing about it is one of the book, one of the things about the books that described it as, you know, oh this woman's world expanding as she increases in age. And it absolutely does that. And that's the other thing I love so much. And um, I'm very aware, again, speaking of owns personal experience'cause where you come from at a book, but watching like my mother-in-law now at this point in her life, you know, and the parallels, um. I just think there is a beauty in it and there's a beauty and that Sybil shows us with life is always continuing and it's always about discovery and it's always an adventure and, and that's I think, such a beautiful message of the book, that nothing necessarily has to stop because. Of one thing. Mm-hmm. Or one tragedy or one defining moment. Right. We can keep going.

Virginia Evans: 40:24

Oh, that's really beautiful. I should write that down.

Brett Benner: 40:29

I will just say for our viewers and our listeners, I'm, I am reluctant to talk even about some specific characters in the book because. Uh, I think kind of the beauty of this book in particular, and because it's the way it's written, is discovering these characters for yourself and seeing who they are and who they become. So I don't really want to get into that much, so I'm sorry, but you have to read the book or I've heard, the audio book is also amazing and it's done with a full cast. Mm-hmm. I think you had said you had started to hear some of it and it was great, right? Yeah,

Virginia Evans: 40:58

that's right. Yeah. I listened to it. It was, it was amazing and I mean, it's, it's an interesting experience to hear. Voices put to voices that have only lived inside my body and head, you know? Um, but they did such a beautiful job. And a cast, a cast audiobook experience is so fun. Oh my gosh.

Brett Benner: 41:16

Like, it's, it's a variety. It's incredible. Who would be the perfect Sybil to you if you could cast anyone?

Virginia Evans: 41:21

Like on screen?

Brett Benner: 41:22

Yeah.

Virginia Evans: 41:23

Okay. I, my, my absolute, what I always saw in my mind was Meryl Streep.

Brett Benner: 41:30

I exactly it, I almost came on today and said, so is Meryl Streep option this yet? Is there an option for me? Streep really, I

Virginia Evans: 41:34

mean, that's who I, I, as soon as I even had the notion of like, if, when I, probably, when I finished whatever draft was the last draft, and I thought, what if this became a movie? I mean, of course it probably not, won't become a movie, but if it did, and I, and I. Said in my head, I think Meryl Streep, and I went to my husband and I said, who would it be? And he said, Meryl Streep.

Brett Benner: 41:54

So it's gotta be, I think you should write a letter to Meryl Streep and include the book. You know the story about how Anne Patchett had Meryl Streep read Tom Lake? Do you know the story? No,

Virginia Evans: 42:07

I dunno the story. Please tell me.

Brett Benner: 42:09

Okay. Okay, so. I saw am Patchett here in Los Angeles, and Kathy Baker was moderating. And so Kathy Baker said to her, um, and I'm gonna try to do my Little Am Patchett, but she said, Kathy Baker said, how, you know, how did you get Meryl Streep to read your book? And she said, do you want to know how I got Meryl Streep to do my book? I asked Meryl Streep to do my book, and people were laughing. And she said, I reached out to my friend. Well, I forget if it was Stanley Tucci or Emily. Um, one of the two.'cause Emily had done Devil Wars Prada. Oh yeah. And Stanley. So she reached out to one of them who's, um, I believe who's. Agent was Meryl Streep's agent or something. Okay. And so she sent Meryl Streep this query, and she said, hi, I wrote this book. I thought of you, you know, thought you'd be wonderful to read it because it's about, um, a mother who's also an actress and her daughter's an actress. And, um, and so she said, you know, Meryl Streep got back to me almost immediately and said, I'd love to do your book. And she said, well, do you wanna read it first? And she said, no, I read other your stuff here before I trust you. I'm, I'm in. And she said, so that was that. Yeah. Yeah.

Virginia Evans: 43:19

How wonderful are people? I mean, people are just people and I love that. What a great story.

Brett Benner: 43:24

So now with your writing skills and your track record, and maybe just

Virginia Evans: 43:30

your doers.

Brett Benner: 43:30

Yeah. And maybe just reference Anne Patchett and just say, my. My friend Anne, who I regularly write to had mentioned I'd heard of and, uh, yeah, no, I'm serious. I was like, and like just slipper A PDF and say, what do you think about this for you? I mean, listen, everybody needs a good role.

Virginia Evans: 43:52

It can't hurt. I mean, I, I. I think she would be brilliant. I think she, I, I

Brett Benner: 43:56

agree a hundred percent. Like I was going through those women and I was like, you know, it could be Glenn Close, but Meryl Streep was the first one I thought of, but there, but certainly, um. What a role. What a role

Virginia Evans: 44:06

that would really beat all that. Would really beat all.

Brett Benner: 44:09

Yeah. Well, Virginia, this has been so lovely. Go out and get the correspondent, buy independent if you can. But check it out on audio or the book. congratulations. It's, it's just, it's so, so beautiful. And, and, and have your tissues ready.

Virginia Evans: 44:25

Yeah. Thank you so much. This was so fun.

Brett Benner: 44:28

Thanks. Thank you again Virginia, and if you liked this conversation and like what you're hearing, please consider liking and subscribing to the podcast. And another thing that would really help me out is to give the podcast a review with five Stars. Every little bit helps, and I really appreciate you all listening, and I will be back later this week with another episode of Behind the Stack. So until then, thanks.