Behind The Stack

V.E. Schwab, Bury Our Bones In The Midnight Soil

• Brett Benner • Season 2 • Episode 42

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In this episode Brett sits down with author V.E. Schwab to discuss her latest book, Bury Our Bones In The Midnight Soil. They talk about when heroes disappoint, tackling multiple projects at once, generosity to fans, and paying homage to Anne Rice and her world of vampires. 

V.E.'s website: 

https://www.veschwab.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/veschwab/

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Brett Benner:

Hey everybody. It's Brett Benner, and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack As we continue double feature June this week with V Schwab for her new book, Bury our Bones and The Midnight Soil. But before we get to that, there were a couple more books that are coming out in this massive release day that I just wanted to mention. The first is Days of Light. By Meghan Hunter, a sweeping, sensual, historical novel about one woman's unconventional life. Lived in search of an answer by the award-winning author of the End. We start from and the harpy, then death at the White heart. By Chris Chibnall. This is a fantastic book for fans of the TV show, broad Church, and also because Chris Chibnall, who wrote it, is the creator of Broad Church. He will be on the podcast next week, but this involves a murder in a small town and who could be the killer also out today. Great Black Hope by Rob Franklin. This is a terrific debut. Rob will be on the podcast later this week. A gripping, elegant debut novel about a young black man caught between worlds of race and class, glamor and tragedy, a friend's mysterious death, and his own arrest from an electrifying new voice. So look for that interview later this week. Also. One of my personal favorites, king of Ashes by SA Cosby. I love his writing. This is kind of being dubbed his version of The Godfather, so look for that on the nonfiction front. This sounds so interesting to me. Murder Land by Carolyn Frazier. From the Pulitzer Prizewinning, author of Prairie Fires, comes a terrifying true crime history of serial killers in the Pacific Northwest and beyond. A gripping investigation of how a new strain of psychopath emerged out of a toxic landscape of deadly industrial violence. So that is out today as well as fantastic author Jess Walters, his new book So Far Gone. Jess will be on the podcast next week talking about this book, Which is about a reclusive journalist who's forced back into the world to rescue his kidnapped grandchildren. It's great. And so I look forward to you all hearing that interview as well. And then finally, this sounds interesting to me, midnight at the Cinema Palace by Christopher Tradowski, this tender, exuberant novel about a young man navigating coming of age in nineties San Francisco for readers of Garth Greenwell and Andre Asman. So check out those books today. Like I said, this is such a huge week for books. But back to the star of the show today, which is V Schwab. Such a delight. A little bit about V. She is the number one New York Times bestselling author of more than 25 books. Schwab series and standalone titles for readers of all ages have made her a major literary figure whose notable works include the villain series, the Shades of Magic Universe, and the Invisible Life of Addie LaRue when she's not hunting Paris streets or riding in the corner of her favorite coffee shop. She lives in Edinburgh, Scotland. So please enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. I am so thrilled to be sitting down with V Schwab, which is so exciting for her new book, Bury, our Bones in the Midnight Soil. it is so good. It is the number one. Indie Pick for June. It is starred reviews from both publishers Weekly and Kikis. It's getting so much crazy pre-publication and worthy hype. So congratulations and thank you so much for being with me today.

V.E. Schwab:

Thank you for having me. I, as you can tell, I've like, the anxiety is, it's big right now. It's, it's it's hope and fear all tangled up, but I don't know what to do with hope and I know what to do with fear, so it just becomes a very loud emotion.

Brett Benner:

Oh my God. So before we get into the book and, and I'm just gonna say to our viewers and our listeners. We are gonna talk about the book. I don't want to go so deep into the book Sure. Because I don't wanna ruin anything Yeah. For, our readers. And part of it is just the discovery, but,, I had some just general questions for you. Of course. Were you always a reader when you were, when you were young? Were you a big reader and what were your go-tos?

V.E. Schwab:

I wasn't, I was an athlete. And like I was never a big reader. I could read, but I was like that kid precocious 10-year-old who was like, I can put my eyes on every word. It's the same thing as reading. Um, it, but I wasn't the library kid. I wasn't a bookish kid. I never sat still. I have a very restless temperament and it wasn't until I found a book when I was 11, 12 and for very first time had the. You know, quintessential experience of forgetting that I was reading, right? The same way you go to see a movie and you forget the edges of the screen and your, you know, your, your mind plays a trick on you. The same thing happens when you're reading and the story starts playing a film in your mind and you stop seeing ink on paper. And it really wasn't until I had that experience that I realized, oh, this is. My experience wasn't, oh, I wanna just feel that way all the time. It was, oh no, I. Like, I wanna make movies play in their head. I wanna be able to control the hallucination.

Brett Benner:

And do you remember what one of those books was that did that to you?

V.E. Schwab:

Of course I do. I mean this is the, this is the Messiness of Life, Brett. It was, it was Harry Potter. And like I have a very conflicted relationship with it. Of course.'cause of Rolling, not because of Harry Potter. Um, it hard, especially as. As a member of the queer community, it's very hard, so. Difficult and problematic. Um, but yeah, it was like the first time that I felt like I was somewhere else and I was someone else. And it's like I don't wanna revise my own history because of her. Like it's still so important to me. It's so important to who I was. It can't be important to who I'm,

Brett Benner:

that makes sense. Sure. That makes sense. Yeah. You don't deny it, but, but it it is, it's a part.

V.E. Schwab:

Yeah. It's like, I mean, and I, I, I struggle, especially as a writer now, I really don't like to separate artists from art. I know some people are really good at it. I simply can't. I'm too aware of the art outside the frame, so to speak. So I have a really hard time. It's my personal choice to not separate artists from art. Um, simply because as somebody who works in the arts, I, I, I, I need, I like to have the context. I, you know, certain creators, they're knowing more about them makes me respect the work even. Um, the unfortunate side of that is knowing them. Not get to have that escapist feeling that I had when I was 11, 12. Right. I don't get to have the same purity of experience.

Brett Benner:

Absolutely. Did you read Monster? No Claire Dederer. It's, it's the whole idea. This is the whole thing about, you know, separating the art from the artist know, oh wait, is the nonfiction?

V.E. Schwab:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is about, this is about like cult of personality and art versus artists. Yes, yes. It's

Brett Benner:

Picasso and Michael Jackson and all of it. And it falls right into all of this, what you're talking about. But it is, and I think what's hard about who you're talking about is. It just continues to become doubling down and it's so active that that's that what makes it, that's the thing. Like it's

V.E. Schwab:

not like, oh, somebody messed up 10 years ago and like, you know, they said something questionable. It's just like the deniability is gone. Right. Your, your, your, that's right. Window of plausible deniability has expired by now. Um, yes, and it's hard because I've very famously spoken about, famously I, why I use that word. Declared my kind of like creative lineage in, in a, in a lecture series that I did for Oxford back in 2018. And you understand, like I had two heroes growing up. I had the one that made me a reader and I had the one that made me a writer and the one that made me a reader was rolling. And the one that made me a writer was Gaimen and mm-hmm. Over the last decade to essentially have to like, you know, bury your heroes. Um. Uh, and it's really challenging as a creator who can like, pinpoint so many of the vital moments of my own, like, sense of self within publishing and within creativity. Like my favorite memories, my most important moments. And like there's a, there's like a corrupted hard drive element, right? There's a sense of like, yeah. Oh, I, I remember going through each. Each one.'cause I didn't wanna be able to just like do the thing my brain would do, which was to reflect back on like the moment I felt this way because a hero saw me. You know? Yeah. And it's hard not to like start this conversation on a complete counter, but it's formative and it's so hard to have heroes. Um, I remember having a very dark conversation with a friend. Who, like her hero was a famous filmmaker that very recently died. And I, I have a very dark sense of humor, I should say to anybody listening, thankfully. So does she. And I said, well, like, at least he died before he disappointed you. And that meant like he, but it's true. Like, you know, people who have Tolkien tattoos, I'm like, you're probably safe at this point. Like, I think you're gonna be like, you know, there's, you know, I, sorry. Deathly hallow, like, I. It's, you know, there's a sense of like preservation. And so part of me wants to preserve the impact that those books had on me because they're such a part of, like, I don't think I become a writer without them as my, as my lineage. There, there, there was such a profound impact at such a profound moment. And then at the same time you're like just, just deep pedestal. Each thing and realizing that like my, my agent says a thing, which is just because something has served you in the past doesn't mean.

Brett Benner:

Meanwhile, I'm still stuck on the idea that there's a whole subdivision of people like on on a Reddit right now talking about what tattoo they have from Tolkien.

V.E. Schwab:

Oh. I mean, you know, like I did that, this is why I had never get bookish tattoos. I just, I ha I don't get any art tattoos because I have just a distrust of the effects of time.

Brett Benner:

Right, right, right. So you always seem to have like. You know, you have so many different things firing at the same time in your brain. Yeah. And probably on the page or in your computer. Do you consider yourself a highly disciplined writer?

V.E. Schwab:

Ooh, that's an interesting question. I think I am a compulsive creative. Oh, I am a relentlessly creative person. I wish I had more discipline in specific ways. I'm very disciplined in that. Like I pretty much work every day. I don't really take a vacation for myself. I can't even if I wanted to, if I'm conscious and sober, I'm working. Um, it's just like I.

Brett Benner:

Do you have a set time that you write or is it just I start in the

V.E. Schwab:

morning because if I don't start in the morning, I can't do it in the afternoon. I just, the later in the day it gets without me making some kind of progress. No progress looks differently depending on what stage of a project I'm in. We were just talking about before we started here that I'm basically less than two weeks out from a book release time. It's not on my side here. Focus is not on my side. But I also don't wanna waste the two weeks of waste being a word that goes on in my head all the time around quotation, right, waste. What does waste look like? It could be called rest, but for me, I'd say I don't wanna waste. And so I'm essentially compulsively outlining. I'm making notes. I essentially sit down for two hours every morning and I just like freethink. Ideas about, of something I'm working on. So it's not just free writing, but it's like, you know, okay, well what's happening? Where did I leave this character? What, what could, what could happen here? And essentially just for two hours straight in this kind of phase that I'm in, well just take notes. Just in conversation with myself on paper, trying to sort things out. And so, so I think it looks like discipline. I think it feels like discipline. At the same time, I had to look through 17 separate word documents to compile these notes because I had scattered them to the wind. So I think that might just be a DHD, not a lack of discipline. Um, like I was making something for dinner last night and I realized I needed dill and I found a jar of Dills. So I think there's, like, my brain says that's a lack of discipline, but I think it's just a lack of like, um, boots on the ground, two feet in reality at all times. Focus.

Brett Benner:

I feel like I'm my soulmate right now. I

V.E. Schwab:

am, I am very disciplined in that, you know, I know the next six books that I'm writing and I will make notes kind of compulsively on them, depending. Things on deck, so I don't have a lot of lost time. I would say maybe that looks like discipline.

Brett Benner:

Sure. But then how do you. You wake up on Monday and say, oh, you know what, number five is calling to me?

V.E. Schwab:

Yes. I gotta go

Brett Benner:

with that today.

V.E. Schwab:

Oh no, I didn do that. Is that really how it No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. I mean, like those five are in an order as well, and I have a pretty good sense of the order are gonna happen. Like you're

Brett Benner:

saying. Dug out.

V.E. Schwab:

Yeah. Very bad. Or up for? For right now, I'm letting it be a little bit more haphazard because like kind things. So as I'm ideating and kind of dropping notes in, I have a very long ideating process. Uh, so basically before I actually write a novel, I'll spend at least a year planning the novel. I'll outline build character, build set pieces, and essentially arrange the note cards, the storyboard for the entire book in a narrative order, and then break it out into a chronological order for each perspective. And then, wow. When I have all those components, then I will know that, okay, for the next six months of my life, that's what I'm writing.

Brett Benner:

It's weird'cause it's almost in some ways, and I get it, like especially I get it with this, it's almost like you're writing individual short stories and then bringing'em all together into one greater piece. I mean,

V.E. Schwab:

I think that's how I cheat my brain into not quitting. Because the fact is like the thing I'm looking at today is books five and six. Of the shades of magic slash threads of power series, like shades of magics, 1, 2, 3 threads of power is 4, 5, 6. Um, it is daunting with a capital D, daunting to say the least. And so if I were to sit down and think today, I'm working on book five. What a horrifying concept. Like I shriveled as I think about that, it's too big, it's too much, it's too scary. And so what I will do is essentially spend a lot of time breaking the idea of a book down into a series of escalating episodes, the way like a 10 set episode of television. So I really try to look, also helps me get away from the concept of a saggy middle. And so what I'll essentially try to do is instead of looking at it as a three act structure, I'll look at it loosely as 10 episodes. Wow. And then I have 10 individual kind of miniature arcs of activity, 10 set pieces. And then in each set piece I kind of break it down into scenes so that when I sit down to write, instead of facing down a book or even a section of the book, I'm facing down like 10 feet in front of me.

Brett Benner:

That makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. And I'm picturing like a massive whiteboard in front of you with dry erase markers. Wouldn't

V.E. Schwab:

that be great? Because where that whiteboard exists, like a writer's room is in my head. Yeah, like that's the worst part is like the vast majority of the whiteboard is not in a physical space, which, which plagues every person in my life with so much fear. It is like I am like one aneurysm away from it. Nobody gets anything, right? Uh, nobody gets anything. Um, I like to say I leave it enc coded so that nobody can harper leave me. Like if I finish. I don't wanna get canceled on the internet for turning Harper Lee into a verb in this context. So I'm sorry everybody forget that it's 13 days before release and I have no filter. Um, oh my God. Yeah. So, but it is logic. It's logical to a fault. And I think a lot of people think that takes the excitement or like the creativity out, but the truth is that year of brainstorming is my,

Brett Benner:

wow. That's incredible. Yeah. So you have, uh, listen, you, you have this arguably a rabid fan base, right? And you have people I hope so. That have followed you. Yeah. You really do. You have, and you have a really large, uh, group that has followed you, you from, from your start. Yeah. And you're also, and I think that that is exponentially really kind of exploded even more after Addie LaRue. You are also really present on social media. You're very generous to your followers. Yeah. You are there, you are giving stuff. How do you find the balance? Mm-hmm. And also, how do you learn to stick to your own vision and not be influenced by mm-hmm. These voices outside saying, what about this? What about this? Can we have this? How do you do that?

V.E. Schwab:

I mean, I'm stubborn. I also think it's important to remember that I started really young, and so one of the reasons that I'm persistently accessible online, even though I'm at a point in my career, would probably would be better for my mental health to be less accessible online. But the whole thing was that I started when I was 19. That's when I signed with my first agent and, um, sold my first book at 21. And the thing that I noticed at the time, earlier days of social media, obviously, but the thing that I noticed is just there was no transparency. Like you, you were felt so lonely. The only time authors ever posted was to share good news. They never posted about the creative difficulties. Really? Because it was seen as like, gosh, right? It was seen as like, don't do it. And I just felt like this is designed to isolate each and every one of us. This is designed for like, it feels tailor made for neuroses and for insecurity, and then when something goes wrong in publishing, you think you're the only person it's ever happened to myself. Was, I'm just gonna be as honest as I can in, in the hopes that like, if anyone else is struggling in the same way, it'll feel less lonely. And so what that means 15 years in is like, I still am just doing that in the hopes that if a, a writer who's just starting or a writer who's not just starting but struggling, can see me struggling 25 books in. It's the same thing. Like it can feel it's, it can feel really heartening to know. Like, I wish I could say that it gets easier. It doesn't get easier, but you can at least know that like it's the same struggle and it's not, um, it can feel like an indictment, like when you are struggling creatively and you don't see other people struggling creatively. It can feel like an indictment on your own creative ability instead of just. Like, being vulnerable in art is hard. Making good art is hard. Improving is hard. And so I think like I'm accessible because I've really, really believe in that. It has gotten harder because I know that the, the larger the audience and like I'm no longer an underdog. I was an underdog for like 12 years in publishing. Right. And I'm very aware of the fact that like I no longer an underdog, an underdog. Is still there. Like I always feel slightly anti-establishment. Um, and I always feel just like really self-aware of the vulnerability and the volatility of the establishment. And so I kind of am just like over at my desk focusing on getting the work done. And so I feel really comfortable being super transparent about that because I want anyone else who's getting the work done to know that like they have community by virtue of the fact that they've showed up and that.

Brett Benner:

That's great. Alright, so for our listeners, for our viewers mm-hmm. Do you have, uh, an elevator pitch for Bury our bones?

V.E. Schwab:

I mean the, the three word headline rate is Toxic Lesbian Vampires. Um, it's, it's the story of three women over the course of 500 years and how their lives deaths and. It's the story of falling out of love. It's the story of collateral damage. Uh, and it's the story of a one night stand gone horribly, horribly wrong. Uh, yeah, I just, it's a book about, um, the idea of vampirism as a motif for autonomy, an agency, and especially about like agency within the context of queer history. It's also about being messy. It's about hunger. I guess if I was, I was supposed to pitch this right? I'm so bad at pitching. It's just about hunger. It's about hunger in every form it takes specifically for women and fem presenting people. Um, it is about the hunger to be seen, to be loved, to be understood, and up space in the world to make. It's like, have 17, you're fine. Elevator pitches tack together. You're pretending to be an explanation. No, I always say

Brett Benner:

this, this building could be as long as you need to be. Um, it it, it's so funny because, um, when I was putting stuff together last night, I did think for me this is like a merging of, and we will talk about the and Rice connection in a second, but interview with the vampire with. The Hunger, literally the movie, the Hunger. Oh, yes.

V.E. Schwab:

Yeah.

Brett Benner:

And I, and I have to say, like for everybody who's listening or watching, if you've never seen The Hunger, you definitely should just for the shits and giggles of it. But also if you don't even watch the movie. The trailer itself Yeah. Is so genius. Yeah.'cause everything they were doing in the eighties with the voiceover and the like, she was meant for something more, you know? All of it. Yeah. With like beautiful Catherine Deo and David Bowie looking amazing. And Susan Ette and Oh, it's phenomenal. Sexy. And it's so great. It's phenomenal. So great. But that's what I, it's so bad. Well, and this is very much

V.E. Schwab:

like, so I always joke that it's the interview with the Vampire Meets Killing Eve. It's like really just about like antagonistic. Women, it is like, it's much more, people are always like, oh, like twilight. I'm like, it's much more a love letter to interview with a vampire and only lovers left alive and a girl walks home alone at night. Like it's, it's, there's a lot that it's in conversation with. It's not really in conversation with a lot of the modern. Contemporary vampire culture? No. Um, because I'm really interested in the like inherent queerness of the original vampire cannons on the original VAM empirical works. I just wrote, um, I can't remember if it was called a forward or an introduction. I should really be better about this, but I just wrote a piece to go at the beginning of Carmela. A new edition of Carmela and, and the Vampire a combo. So I just reread them and like, it's just so interesting. I expect, it was the first time I actually read Carmela and I was really expecting to be blown away by how steamy and lesbian it was. And I was like, oh, it's not like it's still written by, so written by a dude. It's still, um, like it's still about the concept. Um, like how dangerous the forbidden fruit of a knowledge is, how dangerous the allure of another life. And so that's really what I was really interested in looking at that in the context of queer history and the idea that like young queer people often require a mentor of sorts, especially in past historical periods, to come into their life and tempt them and say, did you know that there's another way. To live and that's wonderful and that's enabling. But I was like, okay, but what if that person who came into your life because there's an intoxication to being seen and perceived as yourself for the first time, what if that person was also super bad for you? Because like we get into these toxic relationships, especially early on in our own queer journeys, more often than not because we we're so. Infatuated with the idea of being authentically perceived, that we perhaps don't always wonder if the person perceiving us is the best for us. So, sure. I was interested in that element of, of carmilla and also just like general history. And then the thing I love about your view of the vampires, how messy they're. Like they're such messy gays. They're such messy, messy queer men. And it also, especially the television adaptation, which took a lot of the subtext from the film and made it text, really explored domestic violence within the queer community in a way that I hunger for, because I hunger for, not that I hunger for domestic violence, I hunger for. Removing queer characters from pedestals and letting them be as messy as their straight counterparts, you know? Right. Because when we have to exist on pedestal, it suggests, one that we don't have that level of complexity, which is false, and two, that we're not allowed to have that narrative complexity. And so I was really excited to see that on screen because I was like, oh, okay, like we're ready. We're gonna like, we're gonna explore what it means to be in some real toxic relationships. I also wanted to play with the idea of the collateral damage left in a an epic love stories wake, especially when it's between monsters. Like you have Louie and Lestat who have varying levels of complicity, of course, but they are leaving so many dead bodies and so many people in their wake. And you look back at like the Marvel era when they finally figured out that they should like address the fact that Marvel superheroes were destroying cities. And that like people's lives were being hurt and. That they are biting or murder like they had lives,

Brett Benner:

the lives ruined in their wakes, the families that have been left behind. This

V.E. Schwab:

is the thing I was like, this is truly a story about the collateral damage of somebody else's epic love.

Brett Benner:

So here's my question for you then. Yeah. The genesis of all this, and when this came up, was it literally like, I wanna write a book that has about vampires. Or what was that initial spark for you that said, Hey, I wanna do this. And also leaning into the queerness of it all. Did you say, look, I wanna do something that really plays in the queer space in a way that I haven't done before?

V.E. Schwab:

Yeah, I think there was.

Brett Benner:

And why? And, and why? I

V.E. Schwab:

think there were several factors. It was right in the wake of Abby LaRue, which is a story about in an immortality deal. And even though Abby LaRue is a story about an immortality deal with the devil, essentially immortality deals follow a form. And vampiric immortality deals are exactly the same. It's a transactional thing in which something is lost, in something is gained. And so I, I wanted to write another immortality deal. I didn't want it to be another deal with the devil. So there was that, that plan that was planted in my mind. Could I write a different kind of immortality deal? I wanted to have like a triptych of immortal stories, right? As I'm also just really fascinated by what we do with time, like the liberty that time and immortality gives us, especially what I started to explore is like the freedom from fear, like moving through the world in a femme presenting body is inherently a violent act. It invites violence, it incites violence, it you are automatically perceived as. And I started thinking about the fact that like one of the greatest forms of liberation would is the moment that you go from being perceived as prey to understanding yourself as a predator. This is a wish fulfillment for, for a young woman, right? Like to, to be able to move through the world as Alice does shortly into this book, wherein she realizes for the first time she not have to be afraid of men, that men should be afraid of her. Like what a novelty. So I the radicalization of like young women just being like, what if I didn't have to be afraid All. Um, it was something I wanted to explore. I've always loved vampires. I love the inherent queerness. And to answer your other part of that question, I spent about 14 of the 15 years in publishing trying to assimilate in different ways. You know, I came in, um, as a femme presenting person into the fantasy space, and I tried to downplay the fact I was a woman. And then I came out and I tried to downplay the fact that I was gay. And I kept trying and trying and trying. To make mainstream publishing and mainstream readership Okay. With me. Right. And when I say mainstream readership mm-hmm. I mean the people who are reading straight white men. And I realized at some point around Addie that it was never gonna work. That all I was doing was essentially marginalizing myself in my own stories. And so, in the wake of the success of Addie LaRue. I had this moment with myself where I said like, if you cannot translate the success of that novel into the freedom to write something without that desire for assimilation, if you can, if you have to just translate it into the desire to write boldly. Like if you weren't afraid, if you weren't trying to assimilate, if you weren't trying to like not rock the boat, I realized like the wake of Addie was the time to do it. So essentially I went to tour and I was like, you have been so supportive. You have supported everything I've ever done, and I've just made you a ton of money and now you're going to support me in what I write next. And credit to tour, they never blinked. I, I, I was like, I'm gonna write toxic lesbian vampires. And they never were like, could you think of writing something that might be easier for us to sell? They were on my side from go. They were like, we trust you, we are excited. And then that excitement never stopped. And so I felt like I had this incredible freedom and this incredible privilege to write something knowing that the publisher would support it. Support it in a large way, and so that took a boldness. I already felt a fatigue with the industry. I already felt and allowed me the full creative freedom to write this book exactly as I wanted to.

Brett Benner:

That's amazing. I also find it pretty incredible that this book, which really is about female empowerment, led you and empowered you to do everything you wanted to do and get effectively everything you wanted to get.

V.E. Schwab:

Oh, it's almost like the book, it was a conversation with this work. Like writing this book helped me so much in my own queerness because for so long, like people still didn't perceive me as gay. Like nobody, everyone like, and my books never made Queer list, despite the fact that casts were queer. Everyone just like I just always seemed to be straight passing. And it it, because of that, I never felt like I actually belonged at all. And the writing of this book helped me take up space, which is so funny because it's like a book about taking up space. But I have such a special relationship with this novel now because it has allowed me to speak boldly and unapologetically and articulately about something that for 15 years I felt like I should. In the interest of success, in the interest of mainstream appeal and um, and like I'm super grateful. I'm grateful to the publisher because they gave me that whole support, like with their whole chest going in. And I know that's something that so few books get, but I'm just really grateful that then. What resulted from it is like there's always a chasm between the thing in your mind, and this is published. Of everything I've ever written. It is the narrowest gap between the thing in my mind and the thing on paper. Like it's truly, it's so imperfect, Brett. It's so flawed, but it does exactly what I want it to do on every single page.

Brett Benner:

I love that so much. What's funny to me too,'cause going back to the whole Vampiric thing about it, there is this maneuverability in there because of the sexuality, because I remember like. I, I read Interview with the Vampire because Sting wrote a song about it. Right? Yeah. And so, and I, I remember, and I was obsessed with Sting and so like he would say Jump. I would be like, how high? Yeah. And so I remember getting that book in a tiny little paperback and. I was falling so in love with these characters and, and, and seeing these things that without anything explicit, actually existing Yeah. Breaking down all walls of kind of gender and sexuality Exactly. And everything. And she was redefining this whole thing. And I'm like, and it was the first time too, that someone would say, oh, it's fantasy sci-fi. But it was never, it was. Always considered literature, right? Yes. Interview with vampire and that whole cannon became something else. And that's what so reminded me when you say homage to Anne Rice. Yeah. You have done such a beautiful thing with this.

V.E. Schwab:

Aw, thank you. Not only,

Brett Benner:

not only your movement through time, which is so, and, and if I have any complaint with the book, it's only that I wanted to live in these spaces longer with each character. Yeah. Yeah. Like I was like, this is 10 volumes right here. This is like worlds that exist. Yeah. Which I hope you're gonna say, I was, was gonna Oh, it'll continue. Yeah. A

V.E. Schwab:

movie. Who knows. You know who, who, yes. Who, who can say I, who can say, what I'll say is that, so Addie and Bones are meant to be of the same kind of like set, and it is what I'm calling the garden in my mind, which is essentially, to your point, I really wanted to write urban fantasy of the literary aesthetic. Yes. And I feel like what Ann Rice did was this deeply romantic. Literary urban fantasy. Yeah. And for so long I feel like I haven't felt that. And so I was like, the, the main role for me as a writer is like, write what you wanna read. And I was like, I wanna read literary fantasy. Uh, like I wanna, and the thing is, I saw that with Addie. Addie got shelved in general fiction. It was the first book of mine that got shelved in general fiction. And it's constantly being br by people who will tell me in their next breath, first breath, I love this book. Second, I don't. That is fantasy. And they're like, no, but it's not really fantasy. And I'm like, what do you think fantasy is? And they're like, well, it doesn't have magic and dragons and all. And I'm like, fantasy is any departure from reality. And specifically, I wanna write literary like grounded fantasy, which feels like it's happening in our world. In time like that, it's just, it's a, it's an art of noticing problem then, right? It's not that you can only access the world that I'm writing about through the pages of this book, like with Tolkien, like I'm telling you that like you might have passed Addie LaRue on the street, and I'm telling you that you might have been in a coffee shop that had songs playing that you couldn't hear. I'm telling you to like pay attention to the way that the inexplicable or thees. History is born out of it is in conversation with it. Like I, I wanted to write something that made me feel the way the vampire lestat made me feel when I read it for the first time. And so it, that's what I mean by a love letter. It's a, it's a conversation with certain dynamics and things I didn't feel like I saw in books from that time. But it's also just a love letter to the, like the warm bath. Of what fantasy can feel like.

Brett Benner:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, there's something I said like Sabine, who is one of the three women in the novel,

V.E. Schwab:

it's my favorite. She

Brett Benner:

to me is I was gonna ask you who your favorite was. That's my favorite. But Sabine to me is a little like, if. If the Claudia in the interview with the Empire novel had given, been given time to grow up, I know right before she had been turned. Yeah. What she could have become. Yeah. And uh, yeah, there's three such distinct characters. One starts in 1532, Spain. One starts in 18 37, 18 37, and one in 1991. Harvard. Well, and there's, sorry. There's one

V.E. Schwab:

other thing I want. There's only one other way in which I wanna be playing with. Ann Rice and that's that. If you look at so much of the book and now what's happening in the television show,'cause I just feel like the television show is such a beautiful, um, work is the concept of perceptual reality. And what I mean by that is for nine tenths of the TV show, you meet one version of Lestat and it's a fictional version that is living in memory and then in the last episode currently that we have, you meet OTT as he actually. Is in real time. And then the difference between how we remember people and how they actually are, and the concept that now in the next season we're gonna see a different version of Lestat again that is perceived as he perceives himself. And like I am so interested in that. And so this book is written in three perspectives. And the only thing that I would say to readers before it is think about who's telling the story. Can I learn this? Coming back from fantasy where I was like, I would, I would write a character in one book and I would tell the reader almost nothing about them. So the reader could make a snap judgment. And then over the next book or two, I would pick apart the reader's judgment by telling you more context about why they were the way they were. And it becomes much harder to hate someone when you get to know them.

Brett Benner:

Sure, sure. Oh my God. I love that. Yes. They did have to ask you if someone offered you the chance to become an empire, would you take it

V.E. Schwab:

a hundred percent? In a second, I would've done Addie la Ru's deal. And that's the worst deal. So like, yeah. Happily. Happily. I live in fear of running out of time. It's a theme in all of my books. I would do it a second. Would you do it?

Brett Benner:

I would do it if I could. I wouldn't do it now. I would do it if I could back up like 15 years. Yeah. Um, because I want to be, one of the things that time does is make you look back and remember like, like, this is such a weird thing and I'll probably lose, um, I. Listeners because of this. But I was jokingly saying to my kids one day, when you're older, take naked pictures of yourself before you're too old. Yeah. Because you, you'll never feel beautiful, but you're always gonna look back and be like, God, I was beautiful. And that's what I always feel like. I look back now and think you're so insecure and your body dysmorphia and all the other things. Yeah. And so now I would say. Oh, I would, I would do it if I could go back. I want that experience of like, in the book about talking about reading and how many books there are and how many things to experience. I know Charlotte's like, or just learning a language. Yes.

V.E. Schwab:

Yeah. The, the, the novelty of time. Like I often say that if I could have a superpower, it would just be a pause button. I just wanna be able to like stop for a second and catch my breath and like have a year to just read and have no time. Like I just, that's my thing is I, I think I don't, I think I could live five to six lifetimes. Would I want to live for 50 of them? No. But it's also the reason I don't buy the concept of immortal on we, which is another thing that, like, I don't get it. The concept of Immortals being like, I'm so fatigue. I don't wanna do this anymore. I'm like, there's. Like walk into the sun. You can like, that's right. Yourself. Pay someone else to stake you. You, you obviously wanna be here. Yes. You obviously are still here.

Brett Benner:

So, yeah. Because there's always the promise of what else and what's next and who else, and who next. That's exactly to me. Exactly. That's the discovery of what else could be out there. What corner of the world haven't I overturned yet? Overturned rock.

V.E. Schwab:

Although, God, I think I just have such a. Fascinating. I mean like having just seen sinners for like the fourth time. I'm also so fascinated by the concept of how race plays into that though, because obviously like yes, speaking as two white people and like at the end of that movie someone is asked like, would you like to be made of empire so you can keep going? And this man is like, you know what? I think I've seen. I'm like, he's like, I think, I think, think I'm done and I think I'm done.

Brett Benner:

But, but my God, props to singers. I can't. And props the musical sign alone. Can't I, can't I So next level beyond brilliant.

V.E. Schwab:

There's a surrealist moment in there that like where the, the barn is burning down perceptually from the outside. And I, I just, this is the kind of art, like I walked outta that film and I was, nothing in this world makes me more excited than art that makes me wanna make art. And it's so rare. And when I feel it, sometimes it's a song, sometimes it's a movie, sometimes it's a book. But if I walk outta someplace and I just think I wanna go get a pen and paper and like feel the way that movie made me feel, I, I'll be happy for a year.

Brett Benner:

It's incredible. He's a genius. Yeah. Like the whole thing, the cast across the board so amazing. But weirdly,

V.E. Schwab:

it's what makes me like, that's the best praise I i I ever shoot for as an author, is I wanna write books that make other writers wanna write books. If that makes sense. Like I wanna have that transition of creative energy, like where it's almost just a verb. Like, I just wanna write something that makes somebody else wanna write something.

Brett Benner:

Well, this certainly, I mean, to, to say like, I, is it, is it a bad dad joke or too punty to say it's, it's delicious and you should sink your, oh no, I've

V.E. Schwab:

made so many. I'm like, do you want a first bite? Like you can go get a taste of it online. I hope it sinks its teeth into you. I'm so glad it got under your skin. Like I've got.

Brett Benner:

You do. I also have to say it, just on a side note, I love, what I love about any vampire novel or any vampire movie, whatever is the mythology that the creator creates. Right. And the rules. Yeah. And I, I'm not giving anything away in this, but I love what you do that's similar and what you do that's different, the erosion. I think it's great and

V.E. Schwab:

I just think I want, I want all of my fantasy to come down to human psychology. And I think, like, so for me, I, I also have to come from a place of logic and I'm like, why aren't there more vampires? Like why aren't, why aren't we overrun? And I'm like, okay, well there must be a self-destructive element. Well, how do we get a self-destructive element? Well, what if over time they decay morally and existentially and they just become essentially animalistic predators? But that could happen in 10 years, it could happen in a hundred years, it could happen in 500 years, depending on your attachment. To humanity and I just, I like the idea that like they end up essentially getting in their own way.

Brett Benner:

Yeah. It's kind of like our democracy right now in America.

V.E. Schwab:

I was gonna say, it's like an addict chasing a high, but it is also like a democracy,

Brett Benner:

power, all of it. Power, corruption, all of it. And you know, and the thirst for more.

V.E. Schwab:

Exactly.

Brett Benner:

Well, this has been just a delight. You are, you are absolutely delightful. Um, thank you Claire, as you, as you know you are. Um, but um, please everybody go out and buy the book. Yes. Please. Read.

V.E. Schwab:

Oh, I've we're. Look at how pretty and show it. Show, show it. The show the finished one is show. Look at all this. Gorgeous. Oh my God, it's gorgeous, gorgeous. It's so, it's gorgeous.

Brett Benner:

And by the way, um, buy the damn book because she signed so many of the damn things signed. 300,000. So

V.E. Schwab:

just put me on an infomercial at this point. She,

Brett Benner:

she developed carpal tunnel and she literally, that's not even a real hand she has anymore. No, that's gorgeous. Look at that inside,

V.E. Schwab:

you know, we try. Yeah. It's

Brett Benner:

a beautiful, it's stunning. It's so, um, thank you. You will be lost in this thing, but I'm really excited for you and for all. I think it's, I think it's so fantastic. So

V.E. Schwab:

thank you so much, hun.

Brett Benner:

Thanks again V for joining me today and. If you've liked this conversation or other conversations that you've heard on this podcast, please consider liking and subscribing at your podcast platform of choice. And another thing that would be really helpful is if you could give me a review of Five Stars would be amazing and really helps other people find the podcast. And I will be back later this week. With Rob Franklin discussing his book, great Black Hope. Until then, see everybody.