Chris Chibnall, Death At The White Hart

In this episode Brett sits down with writer/producer Chris Chibnall to discuss his debut mystery, 'Death At The White Hart'. They talk around the story, avoiding spoilers, dive into his career as a successful producer on such shows as Dr Who and Broadchurch, and find a mutual admiration for the same bestselling author. 

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Transcript

Brett Benner: 0:01

Hello everybody, and welcome or welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack in this double feature June today. I was so fortunate to sit down with writer, producer, screenwriter, and playwright, Chris Chibnall. We had the best conversation about not only his debut novel, Death At the White Hart, but also his career as a showrunner, as a writer for television, as a playwright. We covered so much ground and it really was a wonderful conversation. So before we launch in, I wanted to tell you a little bit about Chris. He's a bafta, Peabody and Royal Television Society Award-winning screenwriter, producer and playwright. He is the creator of the internationally acclaimed broad church. Chibnall was also the showrunner of the BBC's, Dr. Who He has honorary doctorates from Edgehill University and Sheffield Hallam University Chibnall lives in West Dorsett, England. So please enjoy this conversation with the incredibly charming Chris Chibnall I'm really thrilled to be sitting down with Chris Chibnall today, whose brand new book, death At the White Heart is just come out. It, it's so good. And obviously for fans of Broad Church, which I was a huge fan and when I heard about this, I couldn't wait to get my hands on it. And for all of you out there, and I know there's so many of you, you will not be disappointed. So. Chris, welcome.

Chris Chibnall: 1:35

Thank you very much. Thanks for such a great introduction. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Brett Benner: 1:39

No, I, I, I, I really did. Before we get into the book, and, and as we were saying earlier, it's gonna be a little bit of a tricky. Conversation, avoiding landmines because, you know, with a book like this, you, you can't really get into much without potentially spoiling something. Yeah. Good luck, Brent. Yes. How did you pick the cover? No, I'm kidding. Alright, so, so, so backing up, I just am so curious. Were you, what, were you always a reader as a kid?

Chris Chibnall: 2:09

Yeah, very much so. I mean, I started. Very young, um, started with things like, Enid Blyton, who, I don't know, I dunno how much that's a, that's a known quantity in the US children's author who did stories like the famous five and the Secret seven, which were mystery novels. I guess the equivalent would then be. I feel like if you're sort of maybe, I don't know, 6, 7, 8, you were, and you were a British kid in the, in the seventies, then you were probably reading e blight early on, or you were aware of her books and then, then I. I progressed to like Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew and those, you know, and, and I think there's some similarities between sort of famous five and six seven who, like gangs of kids and teens who were investigating mysteries. Ina blight was sort of the. A kind of a, I don't know, a, a thirties, forties, I don't even know what period it was really now, thirties, forties, quite harsh world to do kind of, um, English kids going to islands and solving strange events. So then as they do, yeah, you know, the standard childhood everyone has, um, and um, and. That then led, and the other thing I was reading was I was a big Dr. Who fan and, and the, a really unusual thing I think in, in terms of it doesn't really seem to have happened with other shows. All of the Dr who stories got novelizations and were were written mostly by an North Dakota, Terrence Dix, who, who again for my generation of readers was responsible for us learning to read because. You know, um, so many novelizations of Dr. Who's stories, and if you're a fan, you would go and read those and you'd go and buy them when they came out. And they were very clearly, simply brilliantly written. Uh, and so that was a thing that I read. And then that all of those then led me to Agatha Christie and wow, borrowing an Agatha Christie a week from the library. Probably in my, really, in my teens when I was living on me side, um, form B Library in the northwest of England is responsible for a lot of my reading habits. And you, I would borrow one a week. Read that, take it back, get another. So I was, I was, I suppose all of my childhood and teen reading before then I got into, you know, like 15 or 16. Then I was discovering Stephen King. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sort of more forbidden things and you know, Dean Ktz and, you know, things like that, that were slightly a bit too old from, you know, I think we always read, don't read.

Brett Benner: 4:50

I feel like we were on the exact same trajectory because Oh really? Did you have that too? Well, I was, I, yeah, and I was talking about, of course, I, I don't know that. The first author you were talking about, what? It's definitely the Hardy Boys. I remember my mother like Christmas getting Hardy Boy books, and that was like such a, such a gift because again, library, library, library. Mm-hmm. But I remember the Stephen King coming into it too, around that exact same time. I was probably in middle school or just about to go into high school. And I remember the very first one, it was Carrie and I remember the cover and I remember, and I remember thinking like. What is this? And then becoming obsessed. Yeah.

Chris Chibnall: 5:27

I had a thing with Stephen King where I, I really devoured a, a lot of stuff including Carrie and Salem's lot. There was an amazing TV adaptation of Salem's Lot or in, in that era. That was David Soul. Yeah. And James Mason. And that really against, sent me back to Stephen King. And, and um, but I remember when I, when I was doing my A Levels and I had a university interview for English course and said reading. And we were talking about books and I was talking about the, the, uh, books I was reading on my courses. And then this sort of, this, this lecture, she probed further and she was like, what, what are you, what else are you reading? I was like, well, I'm a really huge fan of Stephen King, but I know that that probably isn't what you're asking about. And she said, no, no, no, that's, that's as important as valid. Don't. What you like to read or what is valuable or what is valid if, if you, if you, that material is speaking to you and if, if he as a writer is important to you, you must always, you know, um, uh, treasure that. And it was a really incredible that I can remember that I can remember it where exactly what that, that meeting in that meeting room, um, to this day. And I thought it's an incredible thing of really

Brett Benner: 6:45

well, I also believe that. You know, when people say, I'm not a, I'm not a reader. And I always say, well, I don't, just don't think you've read the thing that has connected you yet. Right? Yeah.'cause there's people that certainly read and are voracious readers and go through everything, but most people aren't that person. But I think if you find that one thing that she's, my, my, it's so funny, I always tell this story. My daughter's a prime example because she was, she's never been much of a reader. She's a, she, ironically, she's a, she's a wonderful writer, but she doesn't, she's never really read, but the years that she went to summer camp. Few years ago. And one of the girls that was her good friend who she goes back with every year, was kind of a voracious reader, but she came back and um, she's like, well, I read some books this summer. And I was like, okay, good. That's amazing. What did you read? And she's like, well, I read this author and it was so good. And I was like, what? What was it? I'm thinking, you know, it's gonna be. Romcom. I, I don't, I. But anyway, she says, um, her name is Sally Rooney and it was called Normal People. Oh, amazing. And I was like, wow, that's so incredible. And she was like, it was so amazing. And I was like, okay, if, if this is where we are, we can, there's so much we can work with here. There's so much. But yeah. And I do feel like those things, like for me, Stephen King is a prime example too. And like the guy is so prolific and has written so many things over the, you know, every year he is. Putting something out, but also, um, I always feel like he's gotten a bummer rap at times because people try to classify him as just a thriller or a horror writer. But what he's playing with is so incredible and his character development is just phenomenal and, and. Incredible that he's published so many books and doesn't repeat himself that often. It's even with themes.

Chris Chibnall: 8:33

Yeah, I completely agree. He's a beautiful, um, so intelligent, so, uh, such a crisp and sharp writer and, and he's an absolute, he's a genius and. I, I couldn't agree more. And you think of, you think of the amount of people he must have turned on to read it. Yeah. Because of his, his abilities as a storyteller, as a writer, as a, as a creator of characters that stay with you your whole life. You know, if we're gonna Exactly. Talk about him and you, you can talk about Salem's, Laura. I can think about reading misery for the first time. Yeah. Um, uh, genuinely shocking and thrilling and page turning. And, and in a. It's so interesting. You talk about your daughter and Sally Rooney. It's like we all, those of us who become readers, I think it's, we all have our gateway drug that there was the person who Yeah. You know, o opened it up and you're like, oh, I'm, I'm look, always looking to recapture that feeling. And you, you mark your life in those books that have really indelibly marked you.

Brett Benner: 9:37

Yeah, and they're the kind of books, I say this all the time where you can remember certain books where you were when you were reading it. Mm-hmm. It's so evocative. Even bringing back colors, smells, the whole thing. Absolutely. Like whether it was a book. I remember sitting in the back of my father's car and driving somewhere where the summer and having a book in my hands. It's, it's what's amazing to me about listening to you though and who you. All of the kind of things that you generated towards when you were young, how you realized it as an adult in terms of what you're doing. I mean not, not the least of which is Dr. Who, which is, that must have just been such a incredible I. Uh, full circle moment for you coming into that world, I imagine. Yeah,

Chris Chibnall: 10:19

and, and really surprising because, you know, there are so many, there are so many writers in on, on the planet who would love to write for Dr. Who. So getting to. To do that and getting to write episodes and then getting to run the show for some seasons as well was a, yeah, it was a, a complete joy and, and a real thrill and, and only gets more so as time goes by, to be honest. Yeah. Um, yeah, it, it is a, I, I guess It's funny because as a writer you often think of the things that haven't got commissioned or, or haven't, you know, work works. You think, oh, I was, I was gonna write that and then I ended up writing the other thing. Or, um, yeah, but you, you do end up following your tastes and I would say it's these conversations and. Two strands. The, the, the, the doctor who strand and the, the kind of mystery detective strand really go back to when, you know, really sort of seven, eight years old. And, and I've ended up doing that in my career without consciously realizing it, to be honest. Sure,

Brett Benner: 11:31

sure. Yeah. There was something I read once that said, you know, if, if you wanna know what you should be doing in the present, look back to what you did as a, as a child in the past to see what those things were and, um. So I'm, I'm, I'm sure for some people if they were, you know, stabbing the dog, that wouldn't be the best thing to go back to. But, um, well, you

Chris Chibnall: 11:50

know, there's a cameo quote, and I can't remember exactly what it is, but the, the basis of, it's very similar to that, where he says the journey of an artist is the journey towards trying to recapture the images or things that first captured one's. heart uh, and, and if you are writing from a place of love, particularly of genre, um, I think you are trying to evoke in new readers or viewers the feeling that you had when you were reading the Secret History, or, or, yes. It, or, you know, watching Yes. Jaws or something like that.

Brett Benner: 12:31

Yes. All, all of the above jaws. I was just talking about this with my business partner Jaws, which ruined an entire generation of young people's. Love of the beach. That

Chris Chibnall: 12:42

exactly right. And it's, but it's sort of

Brett Benner: 12:44

also

Chris Chibnall: 12:45

every, every movie ever since his sort of jaws

Brett Benner: 12:47

as well, you know? Yes. Tried, tried some, try some version of that, you know? Mm-hmm. Darkness in the water. Yeah. So. Um, so then I'm so curious because then you went to university for drama, correct?

Chris Chibnall: 12:58

Yeah. St. Mary's, uh, university in Strawberry Hill near Twickenham in, in London. Yeah. Yeah. And did a drama degree

Brett Benner: 13:04

that, that all sounds so idyllic. That whole

Chris Chibnall: 13:08

wasn't far from the rugby ground where I lived, which was less idyllic, but it was a great place, really great place to study. And the great thing about the course was you did a bit of everything, so. I hadn't done any drama before I went to university. I'd, I'd done English at school, I'd been in, um, a play in my sixth form. And the teacher there had said, well, you should, you know, you should think about doing drama. You, this is, this is interesting. And, so going and doing drama and, and you did a bit of. You know, we did, you did acting, you did stage management, you did directing, you could do lighting, you could do, there was a little bit of television you could do. Um, there was a writing course and you just, and there was a studio theater where you could just put on plays and, and everybody did that and directed plays, and you do three night runs and, and make it all from scratch. So it was a really great hands-on, really varied course. So fabulous. Entry into that. And then there were, there were modules you could take and I chose like popular theater and um, American drama. We did lots of Arthur Miller and um

Brett Benner: 14:11

mm-hmm.

Chris Chibnall: 14:12

And Eugene and Neil and so, so all that sort of stuff. It was a real, it was a real mix. One day you'd be seeing a standup at the London Palladium, you'd seeing Ken dod, who's comedian, um, and Think Hall and Variety and Beberg.

Brett Benner: 14:28

It almost sounds like a a, a bootcamp for showrunners. Huh. Well, it, it, it was, um, looking back at it as you're describing it, I guess so's like, I hadn't thought of it like that. It's like a little, you know, it was theater, but like, looking at it, you're, you're getting so many aspects of so many different parts of this hole that it's just fascinating.

Chris Chibnall: 14:46

I hadn't ever thought of it like that at all. And so you saying that is a real lightning bolt because I think, and I, I think Yes, a hundred percent because what it also taught me is. To appreciate, uh, every head of department, every, you know, the person who's doing the costume, the person who's doing the lighting, person who's doing the sound. Um, the, the direct of the stage management, the, the, like, everything is really important and to love their processes and their work. That, that, to love the team endeavor of making drama that. You are basically leading a team and curating a group of people. Um, you're not doing their work. You're going, right, let's get a bunch of geniuses to make this thing. And, and the delight in show running is, is when they come and, and, and everything coalesces into far more than the sum of its parts and far more than what you thought the most delightful part of drama making.

Brett Benner: 15:50

You make it sound so absolutely beautiful. But it is. I mean, it's, it's messy. No, but your description of it, and you're true and it is, you're like a, you're, you're like, you're like the ring, the ring master in a circus effectively. And, uh, that's very true.

Chris Chibnall: 16:03

That's, I think that's what a show runner is in many ways. Yeah, yeah,

Brett Benner: 16:07

yeah. And you're, you, you're juggling. So many plates and you're wearing so many hats and you're running between post-production and pre-production and running to the set and dealing with an actor who has an issue. And I, I think people, you know, there's no surprise why so many showrunners are. Are assisted medically to get through it, or maybe that's just, just just in America, Brett. Yeah, I maybe just speaking America, because you seem like you're a extremely well adjusted, I'm not, I'm not assisted medically, but I'm surrounded by brilliant people, you know? So it's like assisted

Chris Chibnall: 16:42

humanly,

Brett Benner: 16:43

but you've worked on incredible stuff. I mean, I, not the least of which, and we can get into broad church in a second and broad church in. In relation to the book, because there's some comparisons just in the, in the, the late, the track lane, but like, uh, life on Mars, which is so amazing, which was I think one of your, that was your, your first experience show running. Correct. Was that, am I right? I didn't, no,

Chris Chibnall: 17:02

I didn't show Run Life on Mars. I, uh, I, my first show was a show called Born and Bred on the BBC, which was a sort of family Sunday night, cozy drama, light drama. And then, um, outta that, I did two episodes of Life on Mars. Once in each season. It was created by. Matthew Graham, Ashley Farrow, and Tony Jordan and I, I came, I got sent the pilot script for it. Said, do you, Hey, do you have any interest in, in writing on this? Uh, and I just read the pilot and went, oh my goodness me. Yes, please. It was such a great script, such a great idea, and then an incredible cast. So I was really lucky to write on both seasons about loved it.

Brett Benner: 17:38

And then of course, Dr. Who, which we, which she's spoken about, which is so incredible. And then. Torch wood. Okay. This is, I have to just say like in regards to Torch wood, I loved torch wood so much. Oh, and just the world, the way it conspires, and I feel like sometimes your computers are listening to you if you're into that kind of paranoia. But I was at A a party this weekend in Palm Springs for a friend who was Australian, who became an American citizen, although I don't know why, but anyway, he got his citizenship. So there was a big, well, you know, you're an American now party. Yeah. Right. And John Berryman was the entertainment I. He was singing, he's

Chris Chibnall: 18:17

got a place in Palm Springs hasn't he? Or something? I dunno how I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett Benner: 18:20

I guess he has a place out there, which, you know, I found this all out afterwards, but I walked in and he was like up by the pool, like singing away and, and I'm connecting with that. I mean, I know John's obviously done other stuff, but I was like, wow, okay. This is so crazy. As Captain Jack Aliens may be about to land. We should be

Chris Chibnall: 18:36

careful.

Brett Benner: 18:37

Why is he here? That's exactly, yes, exactly right. So that was, that was kind of a cool moment. Um, but it's also, I I, I, I, going back to what we were saying earlier, just your television writing has been so incredible too. Just the span of genres, which again, are so connected to seemingly like your childhood and what you were reading and law and order. We can't forget Law and order, which was an amazing thing you got to do too. Which was the first of that coming over from like Dick Wolf. Singling out saying, would you like to do this?

Chris Chibnall: 19:02

Yeah, it was, yeah, it was a really brilliant opportunity and actually I had to, I, I stopped working on Torch to do that because it just seemed such an unusual thing to do. And the first time Dick had said, okay, we're gonna do a, we, we'll do an English language version that's not set in in the us so. Yeah, getting to learn from him how that show worked and, and understanding how formatted it was, how tightly structured, how tightly plotted it was, and, and trying to find a version that worked for ITV in the UK that we could set in London, that that could still retain the DNA that people really loved about that show. It was a really great experience, really interesting exercise and, and yeah, I learned so much from him. Doing that and, and, uh, we had a great cast as well. Yeah, it was a, it was a, it was, that was probably my first full show running experience really, where it was just my show and, and I could kind of set it up, you know, obviously learning from, from Dick in the us but really he gave us, um, permission to make it our own show and, and.

Brett Benner: 20:12

Here's my question about it. I'd never, I had never seen it. But were you, um, you weren't just re were you remaking the American stories and adapting them for a, a, a British audience or were you coming up with completely new and new stories?

Chris Chibnall: 20:27

We were, we were remaking the US ones and filtering them into the British setting and. That was the, that was the interesting thing is because also by the time we got to do them, some of those stories were 20 years old, 25 years old. Yeah. So I watched, in order to put that first season together, I watched hundreds, literally hundreds of. Of law and order episodes to go, which ones feel resonant to today, which ones feel like they would take place in London. Now put a, a package of the ones I really liked together, and then we use them, I mean, kind of as outlines really, in a way to, to then make our own scripts. And we obviously put them through. Um, police and legal advisors, uh, in the UK who would go, well, this wouldn't happen here. That wouldn't happen there. Some characters we changed, but, but they, yeah, they absolutely came off the NBC originals and that was part when I joined, I think with, there was a plan later on to do originals. I. Um, but, uh, but that sort of didn't manifest, so it was one of the reasons I did was like, I did 13, which they split over two seasons when it, when it transmitted, and then it was like, okay, I think I've, I've figured out how, how to work those, but if we're not gonna originals, that's why I didn't carry on with that show because I thought, well, that's perfectly well set up. But creatively Sure, sure,

Brett Benner: 21:46

sure. I'd like to do something else now. And then of course, broad Church, which became such a fricking phenomenon. And you know, people still all the time, and I recommend it constantly when everyone's like, what do you like? And I'm always like, have you seen Broad Church? I mean, I thank you very much. I know so many people still do it. And first of all, it, it was the first time for me, and I know, like I talked about to this, about my business partner because she was such a huge fan. And so when I said you were coming on this podcast, but, uh, I, I had never seen Olivia Coleman before that. Right. And. Oh my God. And Jonathan Bailey. I mean, like, you, you know. Yeah. It's a big, you were,

Chris Chibnall: 22:23

the casting gets even better with hindsight because, because all of those guys, it really does on, because it was the time, it was like,

Brett Benner: 22:29

yeah, it was like David Tenet, right. That was the thing. Like David Tenet was the thing. Yeah. And of course, David Tenet's incredible in everything. I've been watching Rivals, um, on Hulu right now, and he's just, he's so, it's so funny and he's so good, but, but. God damn. It was just like, what a fricking cast and like soup to nuts every single character. which again, now we, as we're getting closer to the book, which is what reminded me in, in a lot of ways, a death of the white heart, just in terms of this group of such great characters. Uh oh. Great. So, so for our audience, do you have a, a very general elevator pitch? An elevator pitch per se? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. How do we talk about it

Chris Chibnall: 23:11

without

Brett Benner: 23:11

talking

Chris Chibnall: 23:12

about it? Yes, yes. Okay. So what it is, it is, I mean, first of all, I think the way to describe it is to go, well, it's a, it's hopefully a page turning suspect. In the vein of a classic Agathe Christi, it takes place in an English village. Um, but with we're, but about characters, um, whose lives are like the lives we all live now. So that's really important and it opens. Correct. 2:00 AM on a, on a very dark Misty September night on the A 35 A road in the, the west of Dorsett, southwest of England, deserted. And um, uh, it's just along the coast and a, a guy is driving home and he sees something ahead in the middle of the road, uh, on this deserted gets car finds. And on his head, his, his lower half is in a Hessian sack. And then his on, tied to his head is a set of dear LERs. And, uh, this guy is discovered to be the landlord of the local pub in the village. Ofum, uh, Jim Tiernan, who's just had a particularly rambunctious night in his, in his own pub. And the murder is investigated by Nicola Bridge, a detective who. Crime has taken place, but it's been away in Liverpool for a couple of decades, has come home because of things she has to deal with in her home life, and she's come back for quiet life. She does not get a quiet life because of this man who has been murdered and. As you say, the story is told from, it's from Nicola's perspective, but also from the perspective of four or five of the suspects in this murder, um, including. So when I talk about characters whose lives hopefully reflect how we live now, it's like they all live in a very sort of beautiful bucolic English village, but they're doing jobs like a guy in his sixties doing deliveries for. Um, you know, Amazon being tracked hour by hour. Mm. There's a woman running an Airbnb. There's a local barber. Um, there's all, all these different types of people. There's somebody here under the Ukrainian, uh, homes for Refugee scheme. So it's a, it's a list of suspects that reflect the world as it is now. So one of them definitely killed Jim T who is it? And the novelist told sometimes from their perspective, so sort of unreliable, narrators, and a of characters. Psychologically grounded, emotionally real, but hopefully it's an entertaining and it's, it's a real twisty, turny Paige Turner, Alice, Stephen King, and, but, but ultimately feels both real and, and real as an emotional drama, but also has all the things you love about that classic, uh, murder mystery novel.

Brett Benner: 26:09

Yeah, it's not much of an

Chris Chibnall: 26:10

elevator pitch, but it is definitely a pitch.

Brett Benner: 26:12

Well, as I say to some people, it, you know, we can go, the building can be as tall as we'd like. It can be long. That was the Burge kif for that one. That's exactly right. What a view. When we got to the top, amazing. Tom Cruise was on the outside. Ready? You're ready to leap off? Yeah, no. It is. And it it is. And it, like you said, you, you have taken this what feels like a classic murder mystery, Allah, Agatha Christi, and imbued it with these very contemporary things. I mean, just the fact that, like you said, the wana character, Ukrainian, there's a, there's a character who's non-binary. Yeah. So it's, it's, it feels very contemporary now. What made you, since you're having this incredibly prolific career. Television and you've written plays, but what made you this time to say, you know what? I'm gonna write this as a book. And also the book is about to be adapted, which you're gonna do. Um, it was always in the back of your head, you were like, I'm gonna write this book'cause I wanna do this, but I know that, you know, you read it and you're like me. You're like, oh my God. Well this could be adapted, you know, lends itself to that.

Chris Chibnall: 27:13

I did not foresee that, and for which I now feel an idiot. Oh. Um, I, and many people have said, well, of course exactly what you've said. Well, of course. Um, but I really wanted to write a novel. I wanted to write a novel for so long because, um. I mean, it feels like being a proper writer, doesn't it? It's like, it's just, it's you and the words and the page and the reader, that kind of intimate experience. So I, I wanted to see whether I could do it. And when Broad Church first came out, I had offers from publishers to do it, I guess,'cause that it has a sort of novelistic quality to it. That episodes serialized drama. Um, so I had never really had the time, I did further scenes as Broad Church went straight into Dr. Who. So coming. I wanted to make the time to do things that were as creatively exciting and challenging as, as running Dr. Who, because you're doing so many stories then in different planets, time zones, whatever. And the one of, one of the, sort of the sort of three things on my creative bucket list was, okay, try and write that novel. So I wrote some sample chapters, showed them to my agents. Um, and then we started talking to some publishers. But I, yeah, part of it was, was just. I mean, all of it was, I, I want to try this form, see if I can do it, and, and enjoy that. So, and particularly when I was writing it, I was very conscious not to write it as a TV script and very conscious to make it hard. I, I, I, I was gonna say, to make it hard to adapt, but more to not have any sense of. If this ever got adapted or if I was writing this for the screen, I would do it this way. It was much more, I wanted it to standalone as a novel for it to feel very immersive as a novelistic experience, hence this multiple points of view. Um, so yeah, the, the, the aim was to write a, a real, um, block busting page turning, but, but emotionally true novel, and then anything else wasn't a consideration. Now, of course. And as you say, I'm gonna be hoist with my own guitar and have to figure out how to adapt it, but yeah.

Brett Benner: 29:23

Yeah. Well there is that, that, and that's a whole interesting other conversation after you go through it to find out, you know, yeah. What you had to excise, what, what you had to, you know, expand. Because it makes me think too, when you. In that first season of Broad Church, were you always aware that you were gonna go beyond a season one, or was it something that, that as it became, you know, because you, you, you don't know, you know, you're working in a vacuum initially, so you certainly don't know, okay, this is gonna be a massive hit. Right. Um, and there's gonna be a demand for it. But did you have a kind of guideline at the time you thought, okay, I can, I know where this story goes beyond the first

Chris Chibnall: 29:57

season. Yes, I did. And I, I was very quiet about it publicly, but, but when we were talking about it with the broadcast with ITV here in the uk, uh, when we were making the first season, I. I said, well, look, if there, you know, if, if, if people are interested, I have another story, possibly another two stories in this world. And, and, and they were like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. Let's just see how this goes for the moment. And then when it, when it really hit, they were like, did you say, did you say was more? And I was like, yes, but it's not. Can we get him on the phone please? But even then it was sort of, it was kind of different in terms of going, I was always very clear it wasn't. The, the, the sort of the trilogy of Broad Church was different aspects, that it wasn't a repeating formula. Obviously the second season focuses on the trial because so much as the trial is about truth and, and what happens to the family of those victims and the re the re traumatizing of them and the, the, the difficulty of finding the truth in that judicial process. Um, and then the, the third season again was, was a different story that. Assault and, how that chimed with the times. Really, we did a lot of research on, into that with various organizations and charities. So it was very much never designed to be a sort of formula to be repeated. It was a, it was a sort of ongoing story with a different emphasis each season.

Brett Benner: 31:25

Sure. So. With this, with death at the white heart having come through it, how did you find the experience? Did you enjoy it? Did you, yeah. Obviously it set up its own challenges for you, but was it, was it what you expected ultimately did it? I. Uh, did it satisfy you? It,

Chris Chibnall: 31:43

it really did. I loved doing it. Uh, it was, it was an exciting, creative challenge. Uh, and you make lots of discoveries when you're going through it because you are, as with any piece of writing, however much you. Have an idea for it, structure it, plot it, know where you're going. Obviously there's just things along the way where a character refuses to do something and says, oh, no, no, no, we're going over here. Or there's somebody else pops up and you think, oh, I didn't even know they'd be in it. And so all of that and how, you know, finding the right narrative, voice and voices, finding the balance. Pace and clarity and, and the right language for the, the genre and the story and the characters. All of those things were really, uh, exciting creative challenges. I, I, I really loved it and just to be able to immerse myself in that world and just sort of disappear into it for a period of time. Uh, it was, yeah, it was just fantastic. I also had two great editors, one in the uk, one in the US who were, who were there to sort of, you know, uh, uh, to, to guide me through the process. And whenever I'd go, is this fast enough or too slow, or too ruminative, or too plotty? Mm. So all those kinds of things, they were, they were just brilliant. Yeah. Were they ever at odds. No, they weren't. Well, not to me. I mean, they might have been to each other, but they were great editors in terms of, by the time they presented to me, it was a very united front. Um, and as, as we talked through it and I had agreed with their notes, so it was, yeah. Oh, that's great. It was really good. And they both super experienced and super experienced in the, in the genre as well, so, yeah.

Brett Benner: 33:25

I, I know that like this deal. When this book was a part of a two book deal, was it a two book deal that was related to, I guess my question is, do you see. These detectives in particular, continuing in your head, is it, do you have, going back into the world of this? Is that what this is for you, do you think?

Chris Chibnall: 33:44

Yeah, it's very much the story of, so Nicola and, uh, Harry, her, her junior detective partner who she, um. starts working within death at the White Heart and he's, he's, he's known as Westlife because of his boy band Good Looks in the, in the station. And, um, it's, the story of that first novel is really the story of how they begin to work together and come to a, an understanding of who each other is and the connection between them and, and what I really wanna do. Yeah. I'm, I'm writing book two now. Yes. Of. They will have another case in the second book, will be in a different place still Southwest England. Uh, but, but yes, the aim is for them to, to develop across book two and, and who knows if people like, you know, both books then, then beyond that.

Brett Benner: 34:33

Wow. And then the development is, is it for a series or a movie?

Chris Chibnall: 34:37

Be for a series. We're gonna do a six part series for ITV, uh, which we'll hopefully film next year.

Brett Benner: 34:44

Wow. Do you, when you wrote this, because again, you've been working in the, you know, entertainment business for so long, and you've amassed, I'm sure in your mind, such an, uh, a diverse group of actors. Did you ever write this book with people in mind where you mm-hmm. Hearing people's voices as you were creating things?

Chris Chibnall: 35:04

No, I wasn't. I was really interested in that. Amazing.'cause sometimes when I'm writing scripts that does happen and you think, oh, this is that actor, or, or, um, somebody just comes into your mind. Or you might even have somebody, you know, a photograph of a few actors pinned to the wall. Um. But not in this, not at all. And even now, I don't know. So I'm really looking forward to the, that's what I wanted to ask you. I wanted say who,

Brett Benner: 35:27

yes. I wanted to say, who is your dream? Who would be your dream? Nicola and Harry.

Chris Chibnall: 35:32

I think the, the most foolish thing would be for me to answer that question right now, Brett, because as soon as we start casting it and we go out to people, that's, it's like stuck.

Brett Benner: 35:44

Right. Right.

Chris Chibnall: 35:45

You're great. Their agents would be like, I apparently they're not the number one choice. Right, right. I actually Fair enough. That is fair. I genuinely don't know, and I love the casting process because sometimes you are surprised. Oh yeah. I What an actor does with it, and that's part of what I love is, is sometimes you think, I'm really clear who this character is, and then somebody comes in and reads it. You go, oh my goodness. There's so much more than I. So, so yeah, I, uh, I'm really open. I, but I found it surprising that I didn't have actors in mind, so with the, the book, I just fascinating. Really think of the characters, not the actors with their, that's amazing.

Brett Benner: 36:24

I have to take like a, a, it's almost like a promo break to say, and I'm, now, I have to get a copy of the audio book of this, because Jessica Gunning is reading the book, and I, when I saw that, I was like. Wow, how amazing is that? I, I think she's such an extraordinary actress, so I absolutely, for, for all of you who are audio book people, I, I definitely think this is probably a treat hearing her read this. Yes.

Chris Chibnall: 36:49

I think, I think we need to call her Golden Globe and BAFTA Award-winning Jessica Gunning. Yes. Yes. You're, you're exactly right. She, because, you know, gotta keep up to that. It's happened in the past few weeks, but, um, yeah, she's done an amazing job on the audiobook. She's brilliant. When her name came up as a possibility and, and then, and, and she was actually in Law and Order uk, um, uh, she was, yeah, she was a regular character and, um, but I, I've always loved her work and so when she said yes to doing it and hearing what she's done with it, how much fun she's found on it, how much characterization she's brought to it, it's fabulous. So yeah. Thank you for mentioning.

Brett Benner: 37:27

No, I just read, I read a, a great article where she was talking about it and the challenges of it and just doing all the voices and, uh, but how she and she spoke about law and order and, and I'm sure you read the article and, and she really praised you and how great you were, but, um, oh, that's nice. Yeah, so I immediately was like. Oh my God, now I'm gonna have to, I I absolutely have to listen to it. And, and now, because it's so fresh, you couldn't even hear samples of it yet. Like I went into two different places to try to listen to a sample and there was nothing up yet. So

Chris Chibnall: 37:55

anyway. Ah, really? Yeah.

Brett Benner: 37:57

Yeah. But I'm, but, but that's so fantastic. I just have to say the two people that I really like. I'm just gonna tell you what I thought. Oh, you gonna cost it for us now? Well, all, all I, all I really just an, I don't even know if she's too old, but I kept thinking of, of Ruth Nega. Yeah. Who I just, thought's amazing. But I just dunno if she's too old. Uh, but also, um, the other person who I thought could be great is, is Sarah Green. Um, who's on Bad Sisters? Oh yeah. She's cool. Yeah, she's great. But, and maybe it's because I'm just immersed right now in slow horses, but Jack Loudin would be so great as. Harry, anyway,

Chris Chibnall: 38:36

those are just, they're all good. So when we are looking for casting director, Brett will be, uh, will be,

Brett Benner: 38:41

uh, phoning you up. Exactly, exactly. I'll be available. I just had like, before we, before we close out here, what is it? You, I just am so curious. What is it you love to watch and what is it now you love to read? Are you still like a and and, and if you have any reading recommendations that's great or anything current you've read, but what do you also like to watch?

Chris Chibnall: 39:01

Well, I really love I'm, I mean, I'm very eclectic in all of those things. Like everyone else, I'm a. I adore severance. I, I completely think that is a, oh my gosh, an absolute work of genius. I love it. I love that it exists. I love the care that they put into it. I love that they're driving me mad. It feels to me like a. Once in a generation show in the same way that Twin Peaks did in the same way that the prisoner did here in the uk where it is like a, just a kind of, it's, it's to the, to the, to the side of where everything else is, but it's speaking to us about our existence. Uh, I think it's brilliantly directed. I think it's beautifully shot and scored and, you know, it's, it's. It, it, it's excellence on every level. So that's agreed. Really great. Um, uh, so that's my, that's the big one right now., A lot of the shows I would recommend are British shows, which you probably don't get. We have a, we have a great, um, a great show here. It's currently airing, race across the world, uh, which. Uh, around around is it like amazing race? I think it's very similar to Amazing Race. Yeah. Yeah. But it's sort of done with the BBC public service ethos here, so that's great. And there was also a great show on Amazon recently, called Last One Laughing. I dunno whether there's been a US version of that yet, but it's basically, no, we're gonna have that. It's a, it's a thing where they put, a load of comedians into a, a locked room. It's kind of like big brother, but with comedians, they put them in a, a locked room for, I think it's six hours, and, uh, that they're not allowed to laugh. And so that it's a, it's a competition format and so they are, they are in there all trying to make each other laugh, and the British version is cast so well with such high caliber comedians. It's just a joyous thing in the world right now. It's really good. I guess if you've got Amazon, Bri, it's probably there in the US as well, so, so the British version is there. It's, oh, it's great.

Brett Benner: 41:01

Yeah, that sounds like such a no-brainer for it would be developed here.

Chris Chibnall: 41:05

Yeah, it must be coming your way, but I think there's a British version, there's an Irish version, there's a Australian version. So, and I think they're all on Prime. So, so I, I mean, I dunno why we

Brett Benner: 41:14

wouldn't have that when we have the, one of the, you know, the, the panels going up at the people naked underneath it, the, you know, the dating show with the Naked, I mean Oh yeah. Naked Attraction. Yeah. Which is the first time I remember turning that on. I'm like. Are you kidding me? Are, and you know, the woman being like, clearly he's a showa, not a grower. You know? I was like, are what? So yeah, like, all right. I guess this is what we've come to now.

Chris Chibnall: 41:38

Yeah. That's every Saturday night in England now.

Brett Benner: 41:41

Yes, yes, yes. But, but, but fun and anything you're reading lately, have you had time to read?

Chris Chibnall: 41:46

Yeah, I haven't had loads. The big thing I'm recommending was something that was recommended to me, which was a, which was a, a, a crime novel, um, which was a French crime novel, a mystery Oh. Um, called Blackwater Lilies by Michelle Busey. Um, and. It's set in the town of Vinni, or the Village of Veni. Okay. Which is where Monet painted water, his painting water lilies, and a body is found there and it's so evocative. It's so French, has the most French detective ever. It's so clever, full of great characters, and it's a real page turner. So, you know, once you've, um, bought red and finished death at the white heart, I commend Yes, exactly. Lilies.

Brett Benner: 42:27

Yes. And by no means, I mean, absolutely first you should be getting Death of the White Heart by Chris Augh. Well, Chris, this was fantastic. I, I love just kind of picking your brain about all the business stuff too,'cause I think it's fascinating. Um, and, uh. Please go out and get the book. Buy Independent if you can. It's, it's really so good. It is. It's also such a great, as we're getting into the summer months, like the perfect summer book.'cause it will take your mind and like you will not figure it out. I did not figure it out. I, I did not see the end coming, which I was so glad. And God knows I tried. I kept thinking, oh, this is it. I have this all locked down and no so. It completely surprised me at the end, so that was great. I'm so excited to know that it's being adapted and I can't wait to see who you get in this cast'cause what a great group of characters, so,

Chris Chibnall: 43:23

oh, great. Thank you Brett. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed, uh, this conversation. Thank you for such great questions as well.

Brett Benner: 43:30

Thank you again, Chris, and if you've liked this conversation or other conversations you've heard on this podcast, please consider liking and subscribing on your podcast platform of choice. And what would be really helpful is if you could review the podcast, five Stars would be amazing and it helps me continue to bring conversations like this to you. Thanks again for listening, and I'll be back next week with another episode from Behind the Stack.