Behind the Stack with Luke Dumas, Nothing Tastes as Good

In this episode Brett sits down with author Luke Dumas to discuss his new book, 'Nothing Tastes As Good'. They talk about body image and body shaming, GLP drugs, what led to the moment he decided to write this book, and the book by a horror master that planted the seed to someday write this book. 

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https://www.lukedumas.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/thenewdumas/

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Transcript

Brett Benner 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Brett Benner and welcome or Welcome back to another episode of Behind the Stack, or today I am sitting down with author Luke Dumas for his new book, nothing Tastes as Good. A little bit about Luke. He is the USA Today bestselling author of horror and thrillers, including the novels, the Paleontologist, and a History of Fear. He is the winner of the 2024 ITW Thriller Award for best. Paperback original. He was nominated for the Silver Falcon Award for Best Supernatural, and his work has been optioned for film and tv. He received his master's degree in creative writing from the University of Edinburgh and his work in nonprofit philanthropy For more than a decade, Luke was born and raised in San Diego, California, where he currently lives. So I hope you enjoy this episode of Behind the Stack. Hey everybody, welcome back, or today I'm thrilled to be sitting down with Luke Dumas for his new book. Nothing Tastes as Good, which is, oh my God, it's so much fun. And well, we'll get into it in a second because you had inspired me to kind of do a dive into different things over this last week. So anyway, welcome and congrats on your new book.

Luke Dumas 1:18

Thank you. Thank you. Me.

Brett Benner 1:21

So funny because, this week one of the things that I did this deep dive on was, because it felt very appropriate, was the new show, the Beauty on fx. Have you seen any of this yet? No. Have you heard of this? No, tell me about it. Okay, so it's Ryan Murphy's new show. So already you're, you know, it's, it'll set you up, but it's about a drug that comes out that Ashton Kutcher is this, wealthy guy who, they create this drug that makes people beautiful, but. Causes side effects. So I was like, oh my God, this is so of the moment. And I was watching it over the last two nights and I was like, I have to see if he's watched this yet.

Luke Dumas 2:04

I have seen the trailer for that, actually. I haven't seen the show yet, but That's funny.

Brett Benner 2:08

Yeah. The net result is a little different than what happens in this book. However, it's interesting, so you'll have to check it out. So, okay, I've been such a fan of yours since the history of fear, and I remember getting that book and having it on audio and driving from Los Angeles to the desert, and it scared the shit out of me. First of all, the reader was amazing, but it was so well done, you've basically covered the devil. Your second book, the Paleontologist, you, you Covered, you know, kind of a, a ghostly Jurassic Park. If I can kind of, sum it up. And now what I loved about your new book is I went into it expecting kind of much more of this balls to the wall horror novel right from the get go. And it's really not. And that's what made it so stand out to me is because. It really is a skewering, an examination of so many things. You know, first and foremost, the kind of diet, culture, and that obsession with it, but also body image and there's so many different aspects of it. So it's such a different, thing for you. What led you to say, okay, this is what the next book's gonna be about.

Luke Dumas 3:11

Oh man. I mean, the book. It feels really timely, right?'cause of this moment we're having with Ozempic, it feels like, yeah, I wrote it in response to that. But I've had this book

Brett Benner 3:21

yes,

Luke Dumas 3:22

kind of in my head for over 20 years,, in the sense that like I wrote, or I read Thinner by Stephen King when I was 13. It was the first. Adult novel I ever read the first horror novel I ever read. And, you know, being like a, a chubby kid, I was really enamored with this book. It has similar story of, you know, a fat guy who wants to lose weight. He's like, in that book, he's like, cursed by a gypsy and, and lose his weight at crazy speed and you can't control it. And it becomes this like harrowing nightmare. But I loved it because I had never really seen much or read much or with a fat. Protagonist, a fat male protagonist. Especially growing up in the nineties, there, there weren't a lot of them, and when you saw them on screen or in a book, they were kind of being made fun of. They were just there like farting and shoving, like shoveling in their face. So. I loved that and I loved this idea of, you know, just losing weight at crazy speed. It was sort of like my childhood dream, but turned into a nightmare. Sort of like, be careful what you wish for. And I always held onto that and I, I wanted to, I knew for a long time I wanted to write something like that, that sort of nodded to that, but put my own spin on it. And long before, you know, drugs like Ozempic started, gaining prominence, I knew I wanted to write about a clinical trial. I just thought it would be a cool, a kind of differentiated from, from thinner, but also just it, it would be fun. And I, I didn't think anything of it until these like. Drugs started coming out and it, it became a craze. And then I knew like, okay, the cultural conversation now is, is shifting. We're talking about weight loss in a different way. We're talking about, you know, fat people and, and like the ways they lose weight and are there legitimate ways to lose weight and illegitimate ways. And it was interesting, but also angering and I. It's like, okay, I need to write this book next. And of course I did lean into some of the parallels with Ozempic because it was so timely and relevant to the conversations we're having.

Brett Benner 5:29

Did it feel cathartic in some ways?

Luke Dumas 5:32

Absolutely. Yeah. There's so much of my. Personal experience in this book. This is by far my most personal book. The, as I sort of nod to in the acknowledgements, like, I have struggled with my weight my entire life. I've gained a hundred pounds, I've lost a hundred pounds a couple of times. I, I've, I've really been through it, so, you know, I know. How it feels, and I, it's just an experience or it's a perspective that, again, like even all these, like 30 years plus after thinner came out, you don't see that perspective very often, especially from a male perspective. Like we're just used to thinking about, body image from a more female or feminist lens, which totally makes sense. But I wanted. I wanted to pour kind of my personal experience into it. I wanted to, to shine a light on what it is like to live in a fat body, because I, I wanted like readers who could relate to that experience, to feel seen maybe in a way that they haven't, to be able to relate to a character on that level. And for those who maybe can't just, you know, give a little insight into what that experience is like. I knew that was one thing if I, if I could write anything really authentically. I knew that's what I, I could write.

Brett Benner 6:47

Well it's an interesting thing because you know, the protagonist in his name is Emmett, but his best friend and his roommate, his name Liz Lizette, and she is also overweight. But one of the things she says later in in the book is, you know, fat isn't something you wear like a piece of clothing when you live with it long enough. When it's part of who you are, that shit goes all the way down. And that's so like hit hard. But it's an interesting thing too, because you've also. By making Emmett having him be gay. It's added this whole other level to this. And I was talking about this in the book with some friends last night, and the idea of fitness and fatness, for lack of a better way to say it, and the gay culture and how these standards adhere so closely to what women go through in a way that I don't think straight men do. I mean. And you can tell me you think differently, but like straight men to me it's like, okay, you're overweight. It's called a dad bot, but you know what I mean? For, for, for gay men, you're either classified as a bear, but everything is put towards, you know, as beautiful as you can be.

Luke Dumas 7:49

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that. That like, we do experience body image differently in the gay community. I also think we experience it differently as like. From childhood because I think a lot of gay boys growing up align themselves socially with girls and women.

Brett Benner 8:10

Mm-hmm.

Luke Dumas 8:10

And so they might not be directly receiving the same messages that the girls and women are about how they need to, to watch their weight. And no one's ever gonna wanna marry them if they're, if they're overweight. But they, I do think. I will say personally, like I absorbed a lot of that, I absorbed a lot of body shame and self-loathing from women in my life who, you know, they hated themselves, but also they were very critical of other women. I mean, Emmett in the book, you know, he sometimes has these moments where even though he's very insecure and has low self-esteem, he finds himself judging others. And that's how he sort of copes with moving through the world as a fat person and feeling so like insecure is, well, at least I'm not as big as that person. And he sort of catches himself and like, God, stop doing that.'cause that's not, it's not necessary. It's not kind. But also. He reflects on like the voice in his head that's saying those things. It's not his dad, it's not the men in his life. It's his mom's voice. It's the things that she might've said when he was younger. And I do think that that's something we, we haven't acknowledged a lot. And, yeah, I, I do think as, as a gay man, like the experience of being fat is different, wildly different than being a straight man.

Brett Benner 9:31

Yeah. One of the things you just said that strikes so close to home is this thing about the judgment and I, there's a. Part of the book where he's, you know, there, there's this whole thing you kind of examine as well about this recently, the kind of body positivity movement that's been going on, and for people who are overweight to kind of accept who you are and accept that, and, and Emmett makes this judgment call on somebody, he says, but you know, I don't remember exactly what it is, what he says, but you know, what she looked like in those tics or I don't know what it was, the clothes that she was wearing, but. It's the judgment thing, and I know I have completely been guilty of that at times.

Luke Dumas 10:11

Yeah. It's sad. Like I, I feel like people feel like they can say things. I mean, they will say crappy things to people anyway, but I feel like they can say those things to men even more without them feeling bad. Like, because we don't associate body shame with men. They're not gonna care. It's not gonna. Those comments, those little comments cut really deep and like all these years later, you're still thinking about it, right? That it's, it's really sad. So I, I hope this book people feel a little bit more empathetic, to everyone and like how they talk. And sometimes people make comments that are not even. Intended to be hurtful, right? Like sometimes they're, they think they're being helpful, they're giving helpful advice, but it still can really affect you. I hope, people may be after reading from Emmett's perspective, they say like, oh yeah, maybe I shouldn't give advice on how you can lose weight, or, you know.

Brett Benner 11:06

No, I, like I said, I love so much of what you're bringing up in this book in terms of stigma and then. I have to tell you that after reading the afterward that you write in the book, I immediately went out and downloaded the book Magic Pill by Johann Hari. Okay, so I started listening to it yesterday morning and I went down this wormhole and I will link it below for our listeners and our viewers for people to check it out. It is so good. First of all, it's he, he writes incredibly well and it's compelling and it, it, it's nonfiction, but he. It reads almost like fiction at times, and it's all about, ozempic and, and how it started and what it's done and, and it's such a fascinating thing and I was looking up, even before that, I started listening to this. I was looking up the facts of Ozempic and I was kind of blown away by these, and I don't even know how recent these statistics are, but they said approximately 15 million Americans, or about 6% of US adults are currently taking GLP drugs like Ozempic or Wegovy. For diet and for diabetes management and weight loss studies indicate that one in eight adults have used these medications with adoption significantly, up to 50 million Americans by 2030, which I was like, holy crap, the numbers are, are, are staggering. But when you look at it, and I would be the first to say, I've taken the drug, and somebody would say to me, why are you taking it? And I said, well, my doctor had said to me because it was, I had high cholesterol, my LDL, Was all out of whack. It was kind of incredible to watch. The change. It's like magic, right? But one of the things that you talk about in the book is the stigmas attached to even that. And I think especially with women,'cause it's been more prevalent and people have been like, and he, he literally says this, Emma talks about this in the book of like, you know, oh my gosh, you look so great. How did you lose weight? And he is, celebrities are like, well, I'm on a really special diet and I'm, I remember watching like Mindy Kale, right? Talk about, you know how she's only drinking fruit juices and exercising. And I was like, girl. Girl, and we all were, we all were like Oprah, like all of them. But Oprah finally came out and then she wrote this book and said like, look, I, you know, weight Watchers is bullshit and I needed this thing. So I'm so curious. Just your thoughts on, on, on just that whole element of it in terms of the GLP drugs, and I know Emmett's thoughts, I'm so curious on yours.

Luke Dumas 13:24

Yeah, I mean, just when you were telling that story, someone asked you why are you taking it and. What other medicine can you think of that someone would be like, why are you taking that medicine to get better, to improve your health? Those are the things that stick out to me because we only say that about weight loss. You know, it's like the society. So fat phobic, and we have made people feel like if they're not the right size, they are effective, they're subhuman, they're just not right. We make it their problem, right? Like, you're not exercising enough, you're not eating the right foods. We just make them feel like they need help. But of course, weight loss traditionally is very, very difficult. Yes, a few people are able to lose weight sustainably through diet and exercise, but. Doesn't work for the majority, so the majority do need a little extra help. The medical community makes, talks about the obesity epidemic, and yet there's not a lot of help. I will say in my pers in my experience, when I really struggled with obesity, I would go to my doctor and ask, is there anything you can do to help me? Like control? My eating, binge eating disorder. They didn't wanna diagnose me with it even. And then the solution was always like, we can refer you to a nutritionist, we can refer you to a dietician to tell you to eat fruits and vegetables, which was not what I needed. I feel like these new drugs actually do offer a really promising solution for a lot of people because they are kind of miracle drugs and they allow people to lose weight and block out food noise in a way that they never have before and it makes it. Very easy to, to lose weight and get healthy. And so like now the conversation is, that's not how they should be losing weight, right? They should just be dieting and exercising. They, in fact, the first time I ever learned about Ozempic, I was. I was driving home from work and there was this radio show, and they were talking about this, these new drugs and how they were created as diabetes drugs originally, and now that they've become so popular popularized by Hollywood celebrities, the the poor diabetics couldn't get their prescriptions right. And it was like, how could these fat people, these like lazy, terrible, fat people who just wanna lose weight the easy way, take all the drugs, hoard all the drugs. I mean, it's the same messaging. We're used to hearing about fat people all the time. They're, they're greedy, they're gluttonous, they hoard, they don't have the self discipline to just do the right things or make the right decisions. And it really angered me. I mean, that was the point. That was literally the moment at which I said, I'm writing this book next. Because I'm so sick of hearing that I'm so sick of us reinforcing the same narratives about fat people, and now we have a new way to do that. Like, okay, yes, we have a solution for them and we're gonna make them feel bad about using it. We would not make anyone feel bad about a cancer treatment. If you're gonna medicalize fat and say obesity is a disease, then why would you judge someone for using a medicine? And so that's something that I wanted to get across. I think some people from the outside will look at this book and. Ozempic, right? Like this is trying to scare people off of using the drugs, and it's not really, I mean, I think the drugs are risky. They're relatively untested, like time will tell, like with a lot of these weight loss drugs, really how they work out in the long term. But

Brett Benner 16:59

hopefully we won't all become cannibals,

Luke Dumas 17:01

right? We won't all become cannibals. But you know, like really the horror of this book is about the society around, I agree, these weight loss drugs, it's trying to live in a fat phobic society. And, Yeah, I, I think there's so much to talk about with that.

Brett Benner 17:18

Then the other thing that you kind of uproot, and it's so right on as well, is the whole social media component of it, and Emmett and throughout the book has always kind of lived out a little bit online and has a small following. You know, like anybody would talking about their own journey and talking about their life and when he starts to lose weight. Becomes almost like this mini celebrity followed by a lot of people who are completely inspired by him, followed by a lot of people who, wanna know what he's doing. And of course, he's in this quote, this trial and he can't talk about it. So he kind of has to put up the illusion. And again, I think you've skewed it so well. This kind of, uh, the kind of parasocial relationships we have on social media, but also the kind of what we present on social media versus what is.

18:03

Which

Brett Benner 18:04

I think is really fascinating. I mean, I, I personally, I've had so many conversations with so many different writers throughout different stories about the ills of social media and how I personally, even though I, I'm participating in it, I also understand the destructiveness of it and the danger of so much of it as we believe these fantasies that. People are putting out like whatever it is. And so much of it, you look at these beautiful influencers who are, you know, hosting from said exotic locale from the hotel that is the resort that has them pushing their stuff and like, Hey guys, so today I am and. I dunno, I think you just skew it so well, not only the, allure of it, but also the fickleness of it and the way that those people can turn on you on a dime.

Luke Dumas 18:53

Yeah, it was fun to play with. You know, one of the things that I like about the structure of this book is you have Emmett's narrative, his sort of third person traditional narrative, and then it's cut intercut with these different pieces. So you get his social media posts, you get interviews, you get investigative reports and blog posts. So we get to, you know, we get to see into Emmett's head from his third person perspective, and we also get to hear from him directly. But when we hear from him directly. He's projecting out into the social sphere. So I, I just thought, I think we know that social media is harmful and we know that it's artificial. Like no one really, and some people do, maybe, but I think most people know, like you're looking at a very curated version of someone's life and. At the same time, the validation Emmett receives from the curated version of his life is real. I mean, it really moves him and affects him because he has felt his entire life. This just longing for acceptance, this longing for love, and that's how he finds it. He's always been, he's always sought it online and it could, he didn't, no one cared, right? Like he had like a hundred followers and then suddenly he's the hashtag weight loss goals and people love him and they're saying, you're amazing. You inspire me. And even though he knows this isn't the real me and maybe has some guilt around that, some guilt around making them think he lost weight the traditional way he can't stop. And really the central conflict of this book. Is when Emmett starts to. lose stretches of time. He's waking up with blood on his hands. People who are really cruel to him have started to disappear and there are these reports coming out of like a cannibalistic killer. Like he knows this drug is doing something to me, it's doing something bad, and it's turning me into a monster, something I don't wanna be. But his life is so good. His love life is, is blossoming. He's doing better at work. And online people adore him. And so the real conflict for him is I need to get off this drug'cause it's harmful, but how can I, at

Brett Benner 21:10

what cost?

Luke Dumas 21:11

Yeah. At what cost? And, and, and can I even do that? And so, yeah, I think that is an, it was an interesting way to, to play with that through social media.

Brett Benner 21:19

Did you ever view him ultimately. As a villain, Emett not

Luke Dumas 21:25

at, not at all.

Brett Benner 21:26

I, I didn't, I didn't either at all. In fact, I, I couldn't even call him a monster because I felt him. I feel he was so sympathetic and I was so with him. The entire time. I mean, I really wanted him to win.

Luke Dumas 21:42

Yeah, yeah.'cause by the time he starts to spiral and really embrace that, like monstrousness, we're ready to, to see, like you say, to see him win, to get his power back.

Brett Benner 21:53

Yeah. And it's also like on some very base level, there's a kind of shot and Freud as the reader that you want this not for Emmett, but for all of these people who have been unnecessarily cruel or thoughtlessly cruel to him to kind of get their comeuppance. I don't know. We're currently living in this timeline of history where, you know, I call it the Empire Strikes Back, part of the, the US where the bad people are kind of running the show. And so for me, anything where I feel like there's some kind of vindication or something, feels really good. And, and that's what Emmett did for me. Like I said I, I wasn't the fat kid, but I was the skinny kid. So I recognized some of, of just those fears and those insecurities and things that carry on even to this day of like going even to the beach, not being the first person to even take my shirt off.'cause I still in my mind, see myself as that skinny kid. And I know from a lot of people who were heavy as a child and one my friends that I. That, that stuff sticks with you and it just stays with you. And it's hard to shake that, that body image.

Luke Dumas 23:04

And it goes against a lot of what we're taught, which is that, you know, if you just transform yourself, you can become like a whole new person. You can become the best version of yourself. You can be happy and healthy, and you can have it all. And to a degree, like social media plays into all those things, but having gained tons of like, been very heavy and lost lots of weight. A couple of times I can tell you that that's not really the truth. Like you, you do still, and it's different for everyone. I mean, like I def, I never wanted to put this book out there and say, Hey, here is the fat experience. This is what it's like for everyone. And that's why we have Lizette as a character who is Emmett's best friend, who is a big and beautiful and loves herself. She represents the body positivity movement and she really has no patience for his self-loathing. Like, she's like, just love, just love yourself. 2023 in the book, like get over it almost. She just doesn't get it. And I wanted to show that there's a diversity of opinions and experiences, but for those like myself who, you know, feel their fatness is ru rooted in some sort of. Trauma, or at least that trauma has like informed their fat identity where that they feel like that's part of who they are. Just like their race, just like their sexuality, like being a fat person, like it really does affect you no matter how your body changes and Yeah, it's, it's sad for Emett. It's sad for Emett because he feels,

Brett Benner 24:32

yeah. And because does have, and I don't, I don't wanna go into it because I don't wanna give spoilers, but Emma does have trauma in his life, big trauma that. Because a whole, one of the other ideas that you bring up in the book is this, this concept of, victim shaming or also kind of getting beyond and people saying, oh, you should be over that trauma, or You should move on from that. And the difficulty of some things, it's like, well, no, not everything can be just shaken off like that. And some things are, are deeper rooted. And for him and what he specifically went through absolutely. Is a part of his. DNA, how could it or how could it not be really, do you think, do you find with yourself now that you've come to a place of acceptance in terms of the, your weight journey?

Luke Dumas 25:16

I definitely do. I think I needed to get there to write this book. You know, it was much worse. Like in my twenties, this is probably true for a lot of people. Like so much insecurity in my twenties. I would gain weight and lose weight. And gain weight and doing some like really harmful diet. One of the diets that Emmett has done in the book is this 500 calorie a day, HCG diet. I did that multiple times with my mom, you know, like I have done it all until I almost passed out and I was like, okay, I need to stop doing that. But you know, when I got into my thirties, I just started to really just. Except that, look, I'm, I'm a fat guy and I'm always gonna be a fat guy. I'm never gonna be like, have this perfect body. And that was okay. On the flip side of that, like my health, because I was just like accepting that that's who I was. My health was really bad and I didn't wanna go to the doctor. And when I did, I, I did find out that I had diabetes, which was the thing that I always dreaded, like as a fat person. You're gonna get diabetes or have a heart attack, right? Like that was my worst fear. And I did. And so after turning in this book, actually. My doctor prescribed me Manjaro, which is one of these drugs that are used. I mean, it's used to treat diabetes, but it also has this weight loss effect. And so in the last year I've, I've lost a lot of weight again. But it's interesting because like I wasn't doing the drug to lose weight and I really. Felt to this acceptance of myself. So now the experience of losing weight, having had that acceptance or feeling that acceptance is so different.'cause I will get the compliments and they give me an ick in a way that before I really craved them, I craved them like Emmett did. He wanted people to say, oh you look amazing, like we adore. Oh, like he wanted that positive attention for his weight loss and for his body. And now it's why he has conflict with his best friend.'cause she would never give him that. She always loved him unconditionally and that wasn't enough for him. He didn't want to be loved unconditionally. He wanted to be loved for his perfect body. But yeah, it, it has been, it's been very interesting to, to sort of have that experience on both sides of it and being super insecure and, and just wanting to escape my body and also having. Um, and that's part of, you know, Emmett's emotional growth is like, can he find some level of acceptance within himself to resolve this like internal conflict?

Brett Benner 27:48

Yeah. I have to ask you,'cause I know you work because I'm so curious and all of a sudden I thought, what is this in relation to your life, your, but it's your job. You work as a biomedical at a biomedical research institute, correct.

Luke Dumas 28:00

I do. Yeah. I work in philanthropy. I'm not a scientist. Okay. Okay. And actually, I started working at that job after I wrote this book.

Brett Benner 28:10

Okay.

Luke Dumas 28:10

So it was, but like, it did help in the sense that, like, I learned a lot about, like, I work with researchers who are doing research. They, they might be doing clinical trials or like early clinical trials. So I've had more. To the scientific side of things, um, during the editing and revision process of this book. So that was able to, to enhance things a little bit.

Brett Benner 28:33

I have to say, on a side note, going back to the Johan Hari book, one of the fascinating things about when they were developing GLP drugs is finding out that the way that they dealt with terms of the longevity of how long the effect would last was drawn from Gila lizards and. The poison from Gil Lizards was similar to the D the breakup of, of the breakdown of GLP. And that was so wild to me that I was like, okay, this is really, really crazy. I know you write it. Are you a reader of horror? Yes. Yes. Is it your favorite genre?

Luke Dumas 29:09

I like, I like horror and I like thriller, and I really like things that blend them and that tends to be what I write, that they're, it's not, not fully horror and like with a little literary thrown in. So I think you, you sort of referenced that, this isn't a Stephen King novel. This is. You know, a character study and a thriller and it's all, all those things sort of.

Brett Benner 29:31

But what's interesting about it's, if you look at like the early king, especially,'cause I'm a huge Stephen King fan, he was always writing about basic ideas that just go awry. Like Cujo just being a big dog that gets rabies. And Harry was really like a kind of a misunderstood girl who was abused and just happened tele, but, and that's. Me that kind of, you are taking something that's a real. Pushing it. Right? Pushing it in, in all facets, and I kind of, I kind of love that. Well, this has been fantastic, Luke. Thank you so much for being here. Please, everyone go get the book. Nothing tastes as good. I'm telling you, you'll not be able to put it down. It's really thought provoking. It's certainly gonna bring up a lot of interesting conversations. It would be really good for a book group. Buy independent if you can, but definitely go out and get it. I know that you are about to launch on a book tour as well, so I will link your, uh, your website below and in the episode so people can check out where you're gonna be and then you can possibly go see Luke. So again, good luck with the tour. Congratulations on another great book and I to have today.

Luke Dumas 30:46

Thank you so much. This Has.

Brett Benner (2) 30:49

Thank you again, Luke, and if you enjoyed this episode or other episodes of Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. Also, what would be really helpful to me is if you go to your podcast platform of choice and hit it with five stars, and if you have the time to even leave a review, these things are incredibly helpful. So the podcast continues to get out there so other people can find it, and I can continue to bring you. Conversations like this one. I will be back next week with another episode. In the meantime, you can find me on Instagram, YouTube, and Substack under Brett's book stack. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.