From Rep to Regional Leader: The Brutal Truth of Tech Sales

What does it take to rise from sales rep to regional leader, build high-performing teams across APAC, and stay true to the fundamentals of great selling - even as the industry changes around you?

In this episode of Battle Scars of a SaaS Leader, James Bergl reunites with two of his former standout sellers from the Datto era - Reece Appleton, Regional Director APAC at Huntress, and Adam Folb, Head of MSP Asia Pacific at Check Point Software - to unpack the brutal truths of building a career and a team in tech sales.

From competing on the same sales floor to leading some of APAC's most respected go-to-market teams, Reece and Adam share honest lessons on scaling teams, hiring for culture and performance, mastering discovery, and what it really costs to give everything to a company.

In this episode you'll learn:

🔥 Why most reps skip discovery — and why it's killing their pipeline
💡 The difference between a qualification framework and a sales methodology
🎯 What hiring mistakes both leaders made and what they taught them
👊 How to scale a team from 1 to 50 without losing what made it great
🧠 Why the fundamentals of solution selling never change — no matter the era
🚀 What AI is actually doing to the shape of modern sales teams

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction and how Reece and Adam started on the same floor
4:18 The Datto era — 66% growth YoY and what made it special
7:10 Culture mergers, acquisitions, and who survives
12:00 Leadership reflections — what James would do differently
15:15 Scaling Huntress APAC from 1 to 50
18:30 MEDDPICC vs SPIN — qualification vs methodology
22:00 What separates a good rep from a great one
26:00 What's fundamentally changed in sales over the last decade
31:00 AI, SDRs, and the future of the sales role
36:00 Hiring for hunger, diversity of thought, and culture fit
41:00 Giving everything to a company — and the emotional cost
46:00 Life lessons, leadership philosophy, and what's next

🎙 Battle Scars of a SaaS Leader Podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/@BluebirdRecruitment/podcasts

🔥 Subscribe so you never miss an episode:
https://www.youtube.com/@BluebirdRecruitment/featured

💡 A new approach to SaaS recruitment:
https://bluebirdrecruitment.com

Connect with James Bergl:
www.linkedin.com/in/jbergl/

Connect with Reece Appleton:
www.linkedin.com/in/reece-appleton

Connect with Adam Folb:
www.linkedin.com/in/adamfolb

Host & Guests:
➡︎ James Bergl
➡︎ Reece Appleton
➡︎ Adam Folb

Cinematographers/Editors:
Romain Pondard / Klippable
https://www.linkedin.com/in/romain-pondard
https://www.klippable.com/

#SaaS #SalesLeadership #TechSales #APAC #Cybersecurity #MSP #SalesHiring #GoToMarket #B2BSales #Leadership

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You were both sales reps at the time, individual contributors, fighting it out on the sales field. Who is the best sales rep back then?

SPEAKER_05 0:10

I don't think we actually know that. We were managers together at Delhi. Yeah. Yeah. I mean probably very similar.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

I would um get your opinion on that. What was your view? Yeah, well, you put me on the spot.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Reese Appleton and Adam Fole. Two leaders who started on the same floor, now shaping cybersecurity across APAC. Reese Appleton, regional director APAC at Hunter, built a high-performing go-to-market team across Asia Pacific from the ground up. Adam Fole, head of MSP Asia Pacific at Checkpoint Software, drives channel strategy and partner ecosystems across the region.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Today, they share what it takes to rise from rep to regional leader and why in sales, good enough is never enough.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Do you believe that an AI-enabled rep is going to be more productive? An AI enabled rep will 100% be more productive if they want to be productive.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

That's up to the rep.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

But it depends on use of AI, but 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Do you assess for AI capability in an interview process? We haven't done that. Would you start to? That's a good question. Yeah, it's a really good question. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me here today. It's an absolute honor to have you here today, but also to have called you friends for the last decade. Um, we we met in 2015, so that was 11 years ago now. And to to say that, you know, it's a decade ago, you guys were top-performing individual contributors to watching you within the data business become uh sales managers and leaders within that organization, to watching your careers flourish to becoming sales director of a high-performing cybersecurity company here in region is phenomenal. And Adam, to be running the entire um channel division of a checkpoint in Australia or Asia Pacific is nothing short of amazing. And I'm incredibly proud and um really excited to unpack where we've come from today, where each of you each of you have actually developed your skills and what has allowed you to be in the positions that you are today based on the decisions and the learnings that you've had in the past. So really excited to kick off. Um, Reese, welcome. Adam, welcome. Um, I'm I'm really excited. Um I think this is gonna be a lot of fun. You were both um both sales reps at the time, individual contributors, fighting it out on the sales field. Who was the best sales rep back then?

SPEAKER_04 2:29

I don't think we actually know that because you were at Autotask.

SPEAKER_05 2:32

When we when we were we were managers, we were managers together at Dallas.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:39

I mean, probably pretty similar, but me.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

I mean, I would I would I would I would um get your opinion on that, Berggs. What was your view? Yeah, um let that oh that's boring.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah, well you have put me on the spot.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

Yeah, you put us in this spot. And were you new business primarily at what it is? New business. Okay, so I and I I was account management, so it was slightly different. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but clearly we did well enough for you both hire us into leadership positions.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

So well, that's right, because Autotask and Data emerged, and um, there was yourself and probably uh 10, 15 other people that came across as part of the acquisition. And you were from the Autotask side, certainly one of the standouts. Uh you were one of the standouts at the time, and then one of the standouts that helped to then take the new combined team moving forward. So um, so so Reesh, you went through a different experience of culture merger, team merger, um, and and and continually thrived. And Adam, uh funnily enough, I remember how I met you. It was actually when your um your dad came in to provide us with some sales coaching and he was just a phenomenal operator, phenomenal man, and uh and he told me how he had this son who was in in in sales and he was doing something in like financial sales or something, and I thought if he's one-tenth of you, Lewis, uh, I want to I want to meet him and see if he can join. Turned out I was one-eleventh. You're one-eleven, yeah, which was still uh still good enough to take uh take us to the next stage. Um but look, I I think that you were both um both incredibly strong. Um and and also from my perspective, like what stood out is uh the the solution salesmanship. Um so the ability to be super inquisitive and super thoughtful to um to do deep discovery with customers, take them on that journey, and then take them through to closure. So both I would say elite sellers back then. Um I have a question.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Sounds like how you're sitting on the fence a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 4:45

No, that I've that I've that I that I've only really thought of just as you mentioned, you had the cultural shift coming over from Autotask to Datto, because all I know is our experience. We had a cultural shift of autotask coming into Datto, and we went through a lot of. I mean, you that was my first time as a manager and as a leader when that happened, and then we went through this whole performance management out, hiring the keeping the best people. What was your experience coming into Datto from Autotask? Because I know Adam Ross had also a really good culture over there, and then that brought it in. But what was that experience like for you?

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Um, that's a really good question. I I think the the acquisition it it probably wasn't as difficult as a lot of acquisitions from a cultural alignment perspective because we you know you and Adam had lived together and worked together, and so we knew each other's teams on a on a social from a social standpoint. Um also think it's a different it's a different um experience if you're a high performer versus if you're if you're not, because yeah, you you you um could you feel that when you came in?

SPEAKER_05 5:49

Oh for sure that that's what that's what we were looking at. I mean that was the mandate that Berggs gave to us was let's look at the high performers and see who you want to keep.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Yeah, for sure. And I think that's on with every any merge and acquisition, that's on everyone's mind, right? Like, you know, it's not it's not um 100% certain that everyone here is gonna merge and stay and thrive together. And so, you know, you look at your performance, and if you're you know, um a a C pair or you're at 60%, 70%, then that's that's when you know panic stations set in, and and that would impact the the way you view that cultural uh uh uh merge, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:26

I would counter back as a with your statement of like who is it we want to keep? I think that like that's part of it. The other piece is is just a slightly different stance on that is who are gonna be the ones that that want to to form the new business that we are combined together and that's actually had some mutual conversations with everyone and going okay, this is this is what the new business, this is our new vision, this is our new operating rhythm. Yeah, you've come from something different which has worked for you. Is this is this viable for you? Is this something that you think you can thrive in? And we had a lot of those conversations, and it was actually to be honest, it was it was it was a lot of conversations of of of them opting out and saying, you know what, thank you. I I appreciate the the opportunity, but I think that I'm probably best not suited for this.

SPEAKER_05 7:10

So yeah, you're right, and it wasn't just performance, it was also, you know, we kept a lot of people that seemed to be genuinely invested in, yeah, this this is a this is a journey I want to be on.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Um I'm I'm ready to go on it together. And and it was certainly a higher velocity sales motion at DATO than it was at Autotasks, given the good the complexity of the solution and and sales cycle. So the you know the data was incredibly high velocity in terms of the amount of you know partners and customers and opportunities that you're working in at any given time. And that that that was a big shift coming from from Autotas as well. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

When I'm I'm curious, um, when we look at leadership styles, uh, you know, I was working with both of you again, Adam. It was you first, um, where you came in as an individual contributor um and then became a a sales manager. Reese, you came in initially as a an individual contributor then and then became a manager in the new business. When you reflect on my leadership as a as a regional leader, when you reflect back, what of what are the things or is there anything that stands out that I did wrong?

SPEAKER_05 8:14

It's hard to say what was wrong. I mean, there might have been nuances here and there, but we all ended up at a place that was phenomenal and exceptional. So even if there might have been wrong things, all those things led to where we became, which I wouldn't change. The only thing that I could probably think of, and I don't know if it's if wrong is the right word, because we don't know if the outcome would have remained the same. But in that final year, when we started to feel the shift and feel the demise of what we had with people coming in, won't mention names of who they were, but we all know who they were. Um, could we have done something different to maybe protect what we had? Could we have something different to change that outcome? We accepted those people in like they were gonna help us, and then they ended up ruining our business. You know, is there something that could have happened? And and I was probably too too junior or too naive or whatever it was to look at that. But I know that you had a lot of thoughts about it and we had many discussions about it. Is there something that we could have done to preserve what we had just a little bit longer, or was that just the natural course of time that it was for that five-year of an absolute gem of a time we had it data?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Yeah, it's it's a good point. And just as you were talking, it I I jumped out and I would say what I I could have should have done differently, would I have done it differently? I don't know. But one thing I was, if I say what I was I was was really important to me was protecting the culture that we had and making sure that we had, again, high performing culture where people wanted to be there. I remember to this day, I thought it was really funny. Mitch uh McMurray um had performed well. And he was, I said, if you can achieve this extra milestone, uh uh take take Friday off so you can have an extended weekend. And he goes, That's not really a reward for me. I want to be in the office. Right. Um, and and that was the culture that we had where people run at Hammy and we were we were really, really tight business unit. But no, on your reflection, we were a a regional office um for a North American business. And I started when I was 30, and um I guess I left when I was 36. So I was I was there, and I I always you know reflects it was a perfect when I when I joined Dada, it was the perfect inflection point of I think they got a good deal, and I got a good deal. Um, I was just at the right time to step into a um a role that was very demanding and and took a lot of energy, and that's what I wanted to do. And they they got um they got someone that that wasn't at a super senior um level with war wounds on them already and it with a super price, super high price tag. But one reflection is when I look at um and I've had exposure to working uh you know at Paxaid as an example at a later date, is the importance of representing your team and region at a global level and making sure that you've got a voice and being able to manage the international stakeholders that are going to impact your business. That's something I I didn't do. I would say I didn't even do it poorly because I just they they the the US always ran their their meetings and team meetings at either 11 p.m. or 1 a.m. And I remember saying at the time, I said, I I I like my sleep and I think I'm more productive in the next day if I'm not don't have a disrupted sleep. However, that is something that again, if I had my time again, I would probably reflect on you know, how do you balance that effectively to make sure that if you've got marketing issues, if you've got product issues, if you've got support issues, you you are there advocating for your team more um more consistently at a global level. And I don't think the US realized quite what we had. That what we had was incredibly special and high performing, but because I we weren't I wasn't out there representing that on the the midnight calls, they they they put they had doubts. And that's why they then decided to put their own people in um to that they thought that they that they thought could do a better job than what we could do.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Even though we were growing at what 66% year in year for five years. And I remember countless times. I mean, let's be honest, we had a really fun culture. It wasn't just high performing, it was also we were mates and we went out and we we had fun. I remember there were probably two occasions where I think one was HR and one was another sales leader that said, you know, this can't last forever. And every year we kept proving them wrong. We kept it the same culture, yet we kept high performance, we kept delivering results, we kept overachieving. It was a really special What do you put that down to? Why do you think we had that? I think if we uh if we knew that, then we would we would be able to replicate it, which is almost impossible. And we've all we've all tried in different ways. Yeah, and you and I had a similar experience. We went somewhere straight after Dado, didn't quite work out. We spent what two years at Charge B and the same as Jump Cloud, two years, didn't really work out. Now we're in a place that we're we finally found home again. But you know, I think it's one of those things that you right place, right opportunity, right time, right people, everything just clicked at the right time for that five-year period. I mean, the people we hired were very we were very vulnerable and very careful about who we hired. We hired a few donkeys. But we got we you know, you said um you always said, you know, high hire fast, but fire faster. Um you so we got rid of them. But the people that we hired were very, very careful. And I think you had a secret source of that gut feel of is this person right for my business? Yeah. Not just is this person a good performer and can be good at sales, is this the right person for my business?

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:39

Um, and I think that that carried through the organization. And we used to we used to invite the random sales reps, even junior sales reps, into the interview process just to see if the fabric felt right. I think that that was a really, really important part. So that was probably what I bring down to in terms of the people, that's why we had a really, really successful business in terms of the people, because we hired really well.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Th thinking about the kind of regional success from a from a longevity perspective, I think, and this is not a not a negative, but I think the and this is kind of what I've been thinking about now in my current role is is when you hire for culture fit, sometimes you just hire the same people again and again and again. And even if they're high performers, locally we see that as a positive, there's a there's a high performance culture, but you know, externally it's it it looks or can look like it's a a boys' club, yeah. Do you know what I mean? And so what I've been thinking about lately is how do you hire for culture fit, which is you know, people that aren't necessarily cookie-cutter, the same reps, but how do they it's still high performance, but they bring something else to the business, they bring a level of diversity, not just in terms of like DEI stuff, right? But in terms of how they think and how they operate and um that I I think that may have helped provide a bit of longevity um because it's not just Burgo and his boys' club. Do you know what I mean? It's like there's other um operators in there which kind of bring something different and can maybe talk to, I don't know, like the when you bring in a CFO as a CEO, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

It's a different EO ride. Reese, I wanna I want to touch on on your career journeys. Um you've been with Huntress for what, three years now? Four years in September. Four years in September. September. Phenomenal. And um you've I I've been watching you from the sideline and uh super proud uh of what you've achieved. And you you were just just before we jumped on telling me that your your team and region is is is 50-ish employees now. What has that journey been like for you from being the first guy on the ground to to now being the regional leader running a you know a significant revenue and and um employee size? What what is what has that that that been like?

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Yeah, I mean, um it's it's kind of 30 odd in that GTM team that um want to make that clear. But the the journey so far at Huntress has been an interesting one. I think it certainly helps when the product is very good and does what you say it does. One of the secret sources with with Huntress is our perception within the community in which we we work with. And so um if you break it out into kind of MSP and also cybersecurity in general, we've got very good practitioners in in the understanding MSP space, um, that understand what works for MSPs, they're on Reddit and they're you know they're really focused on on that partner enablement piece um and community build. And then on the security side, we have just very good security expertise and capability that you know um you've got security researchers that have millions of followers on YouTube, and so like we've got good capability there. So that certainly helps. So I don't want to take all the all the credit.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Going from like one to ten is different from ten to twenty to twenty to fifty. Yeah. Um, I guess what are the challenges, lessons learned, um, gotchas?

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Yeah. Um it's a good it's a good point, actually. You know, one to ten is different to ten to to ten to twenty. Um, if I look at the kind of phases that we've been through over the last three years, I think initially um building the sales team and working with a sales team, it was all about kind of salespersonship. How do you become the best, you know, salesperson in the business? Um, so you know, I I would I would I would argue that we had the best discovery, you know, we worked on kind of that spin methodology and and we were very good at that, you know, salespersonship aspect. Um then we kind of we've gotten to more okay, we're very good salespeople now.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

And I just I want to focus on that um that that discovery spin selling piece there. Um in my role having transitioned from SaaS leader into and recruiting SaaS reps, one of the things that I've noticed is that there's there's a lot of mediocre reps out there. Yeah. And um I've actually enjoyed recently um with reps reaching out to me, pitching me and saying, Let me give you a demo. And I'm I'm just like I'm one, I'm interested in what they're talking about, two, I'm assessing them as well, going, How good are you? And the the it's mind-boggling how poor their discovery is. Yeah, like it it's and straight into demo. Straight into demo. Yeah, I had two this week. Yeah. Uh one actually, let me ask you one question, yeah. What are the challenges? Okay, cool. Let me see what let me share. I can really get that. So uh and and that's the I really think the fundamental, the heartbeat of a sale is really understanding their customers. So, like what is your approach to enablement trading um discovery core? And like, how did you how did you do that? Because it seems like that's the first thing you went to is building salespersonship, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

So um I think in order to to to build salespersonship, and particularly in that discovery piece, you need a right frameworks and uh methodologies in place because you need something to to teach. Um, so we we've now we've we've shifted to MedPIC as an organization. That's something that that we've kind of done as soon as I come on board. We never had a uh uh a qualification uh not really, never had a a thorough qualification process. So uh medpic is is the way I think about the qualification framework and then the sales methodology is the qualification framework is the what. Like what are the questions we need to answer? What is the information we need to get? And then the sales methodology, like spin, for example, is how do we go about doing that? Um, so providing you got that medpic there, you understand the information you need, and then spin is well, this is how you ask the right questions to abstract that information. Um, particularly with the you know, the like the the the the the challenges you mentioned before, right? I I will say to a rep, oh, I've if if I'm being sold to, you know, my my problem today is with XYZ, and I go, okay, perfect. Uh this is how our product and my sold out of that challenge. When actually you need to uncover, all right, this is your challenge, how much of a challenge is it? How much is it impacting the business, you as an individual, um, how much of a priority is solving that that impact? And then you can move to that needs payoff, which is gonna how your how your solution solves that that challenge. And that that whole piece is um even if I look at our our reps now, which are which are very high performers and high quality, that's still a piece which needs consistent consistent coaching. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:26

Do you find that, and we use MedPick as well internally, um, and I understand the concept of it, understand why it's important, and this is the information we need to know, and that from a forecasting perspective, we can really see maybe what deals are are real and whatnot. Do you think that a fully subscribed person in one or the other is the right way to go about it, or do you still find that I pull a little bit from spin, I pull a little bit from solution selling, whatever it's called, a little bit from medpick, and you sort of make it your own, and then that's how you go and teach your sales reps on on how to go and be a good sales rep, just bits and pieces of what you think is right, or because some people just focus on some methodologies, and this is what I do.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Well, I I I look to differentiate a qualification framework to a SARS methodology. I know it's kind of bundled in the same thing, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

I think they're often used interchangeably in the code.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Right, they are correct. Correct. Yeah, like your qualification framework is there to qualify, right? It tells you the information that you need to capture. And a sales methodology like new solution selling or challenger or spin is like that's how we get that information and how we then position that information a way which drives value and pushes the deal forward. So I think they're two different things. Um I think every organization, without doubt, needs a standard qualification framework because it drives consistency in terms of language, how you qualify opportunities, um, how you forecast. Yeah. Um, from a sales methodology standpoint, I think yes, you can have something consistent across the board. I think that helps from a coaching standpoint, but you know, not not always, I don't think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Do you align to a particular methodology?

SPEAKER_03 22:09

I I love spin um and new solution selling. So using tools like uh mutual action plans and things like that, which you can pull from new uh new solution selling.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

The irony is I actually recommended the new solution selling to someone last week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've got a problem with upsell, cross-sell. And I said, What do you recommend? And I went through and I looked, and I think it was when was it written? It was written over 20 years ago. Probably it's 20 years it's not the new it's yeah, it's still new solution selling. It is new to many people, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

And to that point, though, like the the sales, I think the fundamentals of salves don't necessarily change that much. Yeah, yeah. The execution and things will change, yeah, technology come out to a little, the fun processes that all changes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fundamentals remain the same, I think.

SPEAKER_05 22:54

Yeah, I'm uh I'm also a fan of spin. Um mostly because it teaches you how to ask questions. Correct, yeah. And I've always said, what is the difference between a good person and a great salesperson and a great salesperson is the questions that they ask. And that comes down to spin and a little bit of challenger as well, because you used to teach us challenger sales at DADO, and that's sort of where I changed my approach from. It's not just the questions, it's also the challenging. Um, the whole concept about it is challenge that status quo, challenge is that actually right what you're doing, or change their belief system a little bit. Um, that's what I learned out of it. That's why I asked the question originally. It's it's over my career, um, which primarily from the Datto days was where I picked up a lot of the most successful things that I still use today is a bit from here, a bit from there. Yeah, yeah. And now I just have a gut feel. So when I'm in an or in a uh training environment or I'm enabling my reps or whatever it might be, um, there's no one way that I do it. It's depending on the situation or depending on the opportunity or depending on on where they're at in their cycle and in their journey would depend on how I I coach and train them. Yeah. Um and I think that that is something that you can't teach. That is where, and you know, we were talking about um experience and just natural talent and all that sort of thing. It's yeah, I I you know, natural capability, natural talent can outperform experience because if you don't have the right experience, then the experience is not the right experience. But experience teaches you what have I learnt from the best parts of what I've been in part of my career, and then execute it on that. Is there anything that you've had to unlearn since the Datto days? I don't know if unlearn is the right word, but one thing that I've learned that we did at Daddo that had burnt me was we you know, we we treated Datto like it was our business, which I think in in a lot of ways is very good. You we bleeded the the blood, you know, of Datto. Um and if you do that in a large organization that you're just an employee of that can burn you, and that's what happened at Jump Cloud, you know, I I took that mentality and that, and then they went through a global restructure and you got made redundant, and all of a sudden in one day you just gone like that. And so then that that emotionally and personally, like you you take a personality, uh a personal touch to that, and you're like, Oh, I don't know, like I can't believe that just happened to me, and you get really down. Removing yourself from that, still operating like you're an owner and entrepreneur, you know, that's still my mindset is operating like I'm this is my business and I'm the CEO of the business and all that that methodology. But if you actually feel it, then you can get really, really hurt. And then you can also then detach yourself from this isn't the most important thing in my whole world. You know, my family is now most important. Obviously, since Datto, you know I've now had kids and all that sort of stuff, so there's a different perspective on that side of things. Yeah, but at Datto, we rarely ingrained in everyone bleed blue blood, you know, this is it. And uh and even at the end of the Datto days, we felt like, well, all that sweat, blood, and tears that we did for Datto just went out the window at the very end. And I think that that's something that I've learned. Maybe it's not an unlearning question, but it's really fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

And I think that um there's what we had was special, no doubt. Yeah. Also what what I I've come to realize just with greater exposure across like the entire industry as a whole, is that the reality was 2012 to 2021 was a rising tide. Uh, the economy was strong, like nothing could really go wrong. Yeah. And I think cause and effect is one is we were all winning. We had a rising tide, people were buying, we were very strong sellers. Um, but the talking about the train, like the solution selling training piece, like I think we're in a bit of a um a crisis at the moment from a um uh salesmanship perspective, because many of the sales leaders and the sales reps that were right in that rising tide were not trained, were not enabled, and they've come into new roles. Didn't they be trained? They didn't have to be trained, right? And now you you can you can order take, anyone can order take, but successful people, the successful sellers that are selling in a downturn economy or a soft economy, which I think we're in now, but those that can truly solution sell. Yeah, um, so that's that's one of my observations that it's it's it's difficult. And then the other pieces in the downturn economy, people lose their jobs, and again, shit falls downhill. You know, your boss, your boss's boss is under pressure, and then that sort of filters down, um, and that that kind of um distills the um the culture as well. So I think that we've all been through like a pretty tough time, and a lot of people have come away going, Oh, like I gave my blood, sweat, and tears to this organization, and they just let me go like that. Um so there's almost people are a bit burnt and singed.

SPEAKER_05 27:35

Um But if you get everyone incredibly bought in, then it's another it's a little bit of a double-edged sword, that one. It's you want your people to feel that way, yeah, but you also don't want them to feel burnt out or feel r really um underappreciated in that. What have you done then?

SPEAKER_02 27:53

One of the the if I would say the gaps that I've I would say that I've got or I've had is like I've come from a very SMB velocity sales career. It's been heavily in the in the IT channel for 15 years, um, and it is high velocity, and it's not necessarily, you know, complex multi-stakeholder selling. It's relatively, you know, it's relatively slim. So as I'm in my new career is is looking at like what are the different skill sets that are required to solve problems that are bigger magnitude, enterprise, big markets, complex sale, point solution. Like you, it's not necessarily just the same, the same person that is going to solve each of those different problems. Um, so I I've always, for example, when we hired at Dado, like my my five um you know characteristics that we would look for would be IQ, EQ, drive, inquisition, coachability, yeah, and then the culture fit as well. Um that was one thing that, like particularly for junior reps, I still think that plays true. But when you're looking at um at more senior reps in more complex sales, yeah, I think you probably need to have someone that has sold a similar sort of um complexity or has sold, has got a skill set in a particular part of the the the type of sale that you're doing. Um and that's I guess something that I've it's I'm not unlearning, but I've I've learned that actually there's a gap there. There's there's a get there's a gap there, and and actually now I can identify like is this person good at transactional sales, at complayer sales, at vertical sales, at point solution sales, and and uh like the where they've come from and the sort of personality that they are is gonna mean that they're gonna be more appropriate for a particular type of role. So that's that's yeah, something I've enjoyed learning. Yeah, interesting, nice.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

Yes, it's really interesting you say that. There's we I've gone through something similar with um hiring for particularly as we moved into you know mid-market, we're going up market, but also since we've kind of moved from that sales personship focus to operational excellence and disciplined execution, like the the the leaders that you need are different. And the domain experience is less less important. So, for example, someone that's worked in cybersecurity, for example, is less important to me than someone that's worked in the same sales motion or velocity.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think you touched on it as well, is is um it's almost there's a skill set, right? That's methodology is a skill set, yeah. Um experience is in a way is is a bit of a like you you've you've got that skill. What can you learn? You can learn a product, yeah, you can learn an industry. Yeah, correct. But you can't you you you you it's I call it a muscle. Have you got a muscle for that is used to to working in a particular rhythm? And that is that that's the piece that you I think you need to look for. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So um just shifting gears slightly, you know, we we talked about um yeah w where where you both are today, people leadership, running um running sales teams for global organizations. When you reflect back on the last five to ten years, is there anything that you think has fundamentally changed in the world of sales? The tools.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

De definitely the tools in which which we can use, yeah. I think is the most profound change in sales. Give me an example. Well, uh, I mean, we'll put AI to one side because that I'm sure is going to be brought up in some sort of a topic at some point. Yeah. Um but uh, you know, the use of CRMs, you know, that's only a Salesforce introduced that, and not everyone brought it up straight away. Um, the use of um maybe methodologies or qualifications like MedPIC that has improved in sales. Um the amount of people that are coming in with sales training courses and executive coaching and that sort of stuff, I think has also increased, which has maybe made the broad spectrum of salespeople a little bit better, a little bit higher. But fundamentally, and you mentioned this before, the art of selling hasn't really changed that much in terms of how we go about it. Yeah, but the way in which we go around the the processes, the tools, I think that has fundamentally changed dramatically, even under the last uh especially this AI era and lead generation tools. I mean, you don't really need a lead general tool, you can get an AI and just go and get a whole bunch of leads and then go and qualify them yourself, for example. Yeah. So I think the way in which we go around sales, about sales, has changed.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

But it's so is is what you're saying, if we look at a funnel from you know a marketing prospected lead to an an SAL, SQL, like a lot of that top of the funnel stuff, there's tools in there to like automate right to automate and change the way that you have to focus your attention.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

I mean, you know, back when I first started my career at at New Horizons Learning, I was an SDR and AE and AM, even bloody accounts payable. I had to go and call people to pay their bills. And my SDR work was I had to go onto Google and I had to go into Goom Labs and I had to go and find my own lists. I used to walk around to buildings and look at the directory of the buildings to see what buildings are in there, see what companies are in there, and I had to go and dial those ones and I had to do a certain amount. You don't have to do that anymore, right? You know, I mean, maybe you didn't have to do that when I was then, and I did, but you'd like there's absolutely no reason that you have to go do something like that now. So the stuff around you to go and help you to get enough leads, I think is is huge. Um, but fundamentally the way in which we sell the questions we ask, building rapport, building relationships, getting that experience, I think that's largely the same.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

I think I I would agree with that in terms of what's changed over the last five years, I think, or ten years. I think the bottom bottom of funnel in terms of that sales personship and the sales fundamentals is probably the same. I think top of funnel, now if you think about the tools that we're using, there's like you know, Six Cent, which is intent. So you can see prospect intent, you've got um outreach, which you can, you know, build sequences and automate outreach. And and so I think the it's become a lot easier from a top of funnel standpoint to reach people, but but everyone's doing it, and so it becomes incredibly hard to cut through the noise and convert those those conversations, right? So I think top of funnel has come become a lot harder over the last five years because of the tools and the Everly's doing it.

SPEAKER_05 34:09

Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then to cut through the noise requires that same skill set of a person that did 10 years ago today to go and and get the attention of a potential buyer or a prospect.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Yeah, it it just it just means you know, aligning, I think aligning value proposition to persona within your ICP and having a real strong story there around the problems you solve is really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Over the years, I mean this conversation has been on going on for at least a decade. The buyers are are more aware. They've done their own research if you get to the the salesperson. Um are you noticing any trends there? Is it is that any different um in terms of the buyers are a lot more educated by the time you speak to them? Yeah, absolutely. They're more educated.

SPEAKER_05 34:54

There's uh it's a lot easier to access information. I mean, most people would probably just go onto ChatGPT now and say, what are the top three email security products that you can buy? Right. And then now they have some sort of an understanding before. Um I mean, the the ability for a naturally gifted salesperson is the way that I'll I'll frame that. Um, the gift of the gab, that that sort of a person who did really well 10 years ago, that just relied on an SE to do their demos or relied on the product to sell itself, but just was able to go and generate a conversation, are probably less successful today because the skillful sellers today are also skillful sellers, but they also really need to have some product knowledge. They really need to know what they're talking about, how it impacts that business, and that way you cut through the noise. Yeah. And also a buy can then see not only does this, but you're asking good questions, they're really understanding our business and all the things that makes a salesperson a good salesperson, but they also know what they're talking about. And that coupled together is a really powerful.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

That's that's interesting. So I want to double-click on that piece in particular. So when we look at the role of the salesperson, are we saying that the role is actually we're expecting more from a salesperson today than five or ten years ago? I think so. And you're probably I know you're thinking there, but I I remember you at Autotask, you could demo the product better than the the SEs. Yeah. You never ever needed an SE, right? And you you were just that way inclined that you needed to know it inside and out.

SPEAKER_05 36:15

But yeah, that's how we were wired. Yeah. But the people in our team were not wired that way. Some of them could not answer. But that's not the news, though.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

That's not changed. Like the successful reps then had better product knowledge, had better industry insights, were able to have that more consultative approach. And I think that's that's that's changed.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Let me ask uh a layer question on that is are you seeing any difference? And again, I'm I'm I've I've heard this topic a little bit in terms of the expectation of a new business for rep is is transitioning a little bit more to 360. So the requirement for like in the worlds that we lived in, a lot of the time that there would be an SDR booking the appointments and they just wouldn't have to do any prospecting themselves. Like I'm hearing and seeing a lot more that you know, this BDM or AE needs to go out there and they need to do their own lead generation. That is a part, that is a critical part of their role. Is that like do you have that expectation that your AEs are doing a certain percentage of their own lead gen?

SPEAKER_03 37:14

We do expect account executives to do their own lead gen. Do you have an SDR team? We have an SDR team as well. Um, so you know, from an AE perspective, I think again, I don't think this is this is anything different or changed. I think the the high performing AEs have always done their own prospect and have always made sure going into a core they've got two, three, four in a pile of pump, they're only whatever it is. Um I don't think that's that's changed at all. I don't necessarily agree with the whole 360 approach. I think it is gonna depend on, again, that sales velocity. If you're an account executive and you're bringing on, you know, 10 customers a month or in that in a high velocity business, where do you have time to prospect as well as account manage when you've got 10, 20, 30, 40 customers? And I think it becomes I I would disagree with how impactful that is.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

I I share that sentiment as well. Yeah, as I'm sitting on the sideline and watching a lot of companies say, yeah, we what we expect them to do their own lead generation. We also are expecting them to do some of the account management because some of the customer success pieces as well. But like I I look at it from a um a productivity perspective. Like you I want my sales rep closing high-value tickets and when they're spending time doing non-verview generating activity, then why not pay a low-cost resource to do that? I that's my my opinion. Um, I think part of it is just pressure on reducing costs of GTM teams, maybe in a slightly downturn economy. Um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 38:42

The one thing that I that I probably would say that 360 does is that it forces a rep to understand the full cycle of what happens pre-post surrounding that lead qualification, so then they can go and appreciate what those tasks actually do. Um, because often you find that salespeople that have just jumped into an account manager role that have never done SDR and don't actually know what it takes to do the grunt work of cold calling and getting rejected and doing that. And that's a really important part of being a successful salesperson is going through that experience and building up that resilience and having to play dial the phone a hundred times a day and get yelled at and whatever that is. Um, that's all part of that experience that teaches you to be resilient or teaches you to, you know, um think on your feet. Um so I think 360 allows for that to happen in which you just understand. But I completely agree with you. I mean, it's not necessary nowadays, and you want your people focused on what they need to be focused on, um, and any distractions are just that distractions.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

When you're looking at because you're you're in growth mode at the moment, you're um what is your your your role today? Head of MSP for Asia Pacific. Head of MSP for Asia Pacific for a checkpoint. Um, you know, big, big commie, big role, big opportunity. Um I I imagine big growth plans um looking forward as well. How do you distinguish when you're interviewing reps between you know someone that's high quality and and potentially low quality? Like what are the three or four characteristics that you're trying to assess when you're interviewing candidates?

SPEAKER_05 40:18

Um yeah, so I guess the top things that I look for um initially when I'm interviewing is one, sort of what we're doing now, conversational. Can they be conversational? Is it very much just one-word answers? Um, definitely the questions that they ask, and not just at the end, when you say, Do you have any questions for me? Yeah, questions throughout. So that the the conversal conversational nature. Um and also the the the type of questions that they're asking, not just um, oh, like what's the split of the commission plan or do I get some time off? Or is a hybrid, you know, not those like those silly ones that they ask sometimes. It's you know, more more like um okay, so when you go into I don't know, a prospect, um, what are the top things that they usually say that they have that would make your product not fit? So it's something that really that's a great question.

SPEAKER_06 41:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

Um instantly that person just goes a little bit higher in my books of should I move into the next round? Curious. Yeah, the curious nature of them. So those are really and if and if those all line up, then all of a sudden I've got this feeling like, okay, this is a person that I want to go and move forward. And then maybe some presentation rounds or something like that might weed them out or whatever it might be, or salary expectations, whatever that might be. Um, but I would I would rate that top of my curiosity, of my thought process and conversational questions asked, curiosity. Um, could I, you know, I I travel a lot for work. And when I travel, sometimes it's with rep, sometimes it's not. When it is with rep, do I want to be on the road with this person? Do I want to, you know, when I'm in a meeting with a prospect or really big um partner of ours, um, would I be happy to just say, What are your thoughts? Hand them the floor or not? And I think the gut feel, you can get that pretty quickly in a in a yeah, you know, 20-30 minute conversation with someone.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

Yeah. I think that the the key characteristics in terms of skill set, it's gonna depend on the role and the senior area of the role, but in terms of those fundamental um uh capabilities that you look for or characteristics that you look for when interviewing a sales rep, but I think it's what you said before, right? EQ, IQ is is critically important. Um you often get very intelligent people, but but their IQ is or EQ is is lacking somewhat. Um so EQ, IQ, coachability, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 42:34

Um how do you how do you look for that in an interview?

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Coachability is really hard to to look for within an interview. I think um, you know, sporting backgrounds or if they're high performers in sport, music, or whatever it may be, um there's a degree of coachability there, right? I they've been they've been coached and they've been able to apply that. Um within the interview process itself, sometimes the first person in stage one will give them some feedback, and then you you in the second interview you you see if they've then applied that or taken that on. So that's it, it is very hard though.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Um I used to do that in interviews as well, is I would give someone feedback. I'd always give find a flaw, yeah, even if it was small, even if I had to make it up slightly, and I would give it to them and I'd just watch their reaction. Yeah, and sometimes you can see by the way they look at you with their eyes if that whether they are are taking it on board or whether some of them are rejecting the company. They're rejecting it. Sometimes they glaze over, sometimes they get angry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're okay, cool. It's like, yeah, you're right, I just made that up.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

But but interesting with coachability is is is that it's not just um asking for feedback and being open to hearing feedback, but it's then also the application of that feedback, right? So often reps will be like, hey, how can I improve? How can I do this? How can I do that better? You provide that feedback, they say, Yes, also I'll work on that, but the application is is is off. Um so that's that's the I think that's the hard thing to to interview for. Um curiosity I think is also really important. So that those would be the the and also and again this is hard to interview for, but that just ambition and drive to be successful. Yeah. Again, those backgrounds around you know if they excelled in sport or music or whatever it is often is a demonstration of that. But that's also hard sometimes to interview for.

SPEAKER_05 44:28

I remember you used to say when we were hiring a data that it wasn't necessary that they had to have a degree but you always favored it not because of the degree itself but because they showed commitment for three or four years to get something done an accomplishment to get to an achievement. So it's nothing to do with what they studied or why they studied or anything like that. It was you committed yourself for three, four years, whatever else and you got that degree and that was that sort of showed the background of is this can this person actually commit to me or they're just going to jump after CMIs of me training then.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Yeah I think it's especially for SDRs or junior roles like demonstrate that you've got some sort of grit.

SPEAKER_05 45:00

Yeah I want to I want to flip the question when you're interviewing someone and you think this person's got potential what are the one two three things that a candidate has said to you as part of a process that are giving you the ick and you've been like uh that's killed it asking me how much time off can have someone actually asked you today um yeah how how flexible is this role and what is the um what is the uh personal leave period like what what what what does that look like question three maybe in an interview yeah the person leaves now you could go um I think also what is the expectation at home when you're working from home what the expectation when you're working from home is to be working from home that you know someone asks you that yeah what is the expectation when I work from home that's you're working from home yeah yeah that's uh that's awful that's any questions around that um maybe not I mean it's they're allowed to ask those questions of course but there's a time and a place to ask those questions maybe at the end of the cycle whatever it is just so they understand you know hey yep you're looking really good for this role is there anything else like casually that you want to know maybe that's okay but interview one coming in and asking these questions I think that's definitely like turn off red flag it just shows you said you can't really see motivation and ambition and drive that shows me that you don't think you have that or EQ or EQ yeah right I mean it also depends on why they're asking that question if they have you know there could be circumstances but at the end of the day I you know uh we we're a hundred percent work from home organisation yep I don't really care about time you put in but it's the output it's the output right and so if you know if a rep says hey I need to take two hours off here I need to do this I need that fine why do you the output's there I don't I don't mind yep but you know asking that as the one of the first questions in the first interview is uh a bit of an alarm how much can I get away with it yeah what's an example of a hiring mistake that you've made that you've learnt from a hiring mistake that I've made there was a particular SDR turned out to be quite toxic to the team and just the the culture in in in general um and during the interview process he he was he he wanted to meet me in in in person he wanted to meet me in a cafe in person to meet me face to face before he wanted to to to to work for us um I was a butcher's a bit more I don't necessarily I don't know I don't necessarily know whether that's a a red flag or not but it turned out to be a a red flag because he he I I I can't explain it.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

I can't explain it.

SPEAKER_05 47:38

So if someone asked you to do that now in a new interview would you now question why they're doing that?

SPEAKER_03 47:44

I think this is gonna sound this is going to sound awful probably on on camera but I think there's a time and a place like you know I I'm I'm a final interview with a an SDR who you know is reporting to a sales a sales you know a a sales manager and I I don't I don't know if I was an SDR if I was an accounting executive I don't know if I'd ask that the regional director to go for a coffee like can I take you away from from work outside of the IF process and take you for a coffee that's interesting to see um and and I I I I always thought it was a good thing. I was like this guy seems very vested and yeah showing up and putting the extra work in but it turned out to be just yeah very very bad hire. What is what did that translate to once you hire them?

SPEAKER_05 48:30

Um would undermine me to other leaders in a business would um step step all over other people other people uh in the business um and so I don't know whether it's a it's a sense of would that be entitlement entitlement maybe yeah or their way of trying to show that I'm important in this business and getting my name out there.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

I think so yeah and it was yeah maybe entitlement maybe how can I m maneuver myself as high in this business as quickly as possible without thinking about you know any impact on culture or teammates. And that was a really interesting a little bit of arrogance maybe as well complete arrogance as well. Complete arrogance. So complete entitlement and complete arrogance topics about that I was like this this is showing commitment and and being on the front foot and being proactive but you know thinking about it you know yeah that's a that's a really interesting perspective.

SPEAKER_05 49:33

Yeah yeah one one thing in in hiring I mean I hiring mistake well maybe made a little bit of a mistake here and there and the people that we've hired but one of the things that um I have made the mistake of and I think a lot of people do is hiring too fast. Maybe you really need this role filled maybe it's that oh I mean the recruiting process and the interviewing process is tiring and it takes a lot out of your day and it takes you away from your job and everything. And if you do it a few times and you meet the wrong people and eventually it's like oh this like this is how much longer is this going to take and eventually just like all right they're good enough. Yeah yeah yeah that's that's that's when you can get into sometimes you get lucky correct good enough yeah sometimes you get really lucky and like oh I I I dug the bullet there, I got a really good one. More often than not that that's not true. And then you end up you know either trying to make it work or firing them and having to do the same thing over and again. So I think yeah it's it's really important to make sure you're hiring the right people.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

So you were saying that you knew that they probably weren't the best but you felt they were good enough good good enough for the period of time that you've been hiring candidates interviewing. Yeah good enough is not good enough good enough is not good enough absolutely yeah okay I do want to transition to um to the conversation of AI a little bit um how is really broad question like how is AI impacting you as a sales leader today?

SPEAKER_03 50:57

How is AI imp AI is not impacting me as a sales leader per se. I think to your point as the tools and the use of AI is is is driving additional productivity from from a rep perspective I think if if you look at you know maybe 36 or even maybe 12 months 24 months 36 months in the future there's certain components within that sales process which just disappear I think um because they are valuable for us. Because you know if you and I think about the and again this is probably going to cause some some some discussion but the inbound SDR for example if I have someone that has high intent that wants to speak to a an account executive why do I want to give them put them in front of a lower skilled an SDR first to to qualify when actually there are AI tools that are very good at doing that today. Yep and so you're removing friction from that that that buy-in journey with that so I think it's not it's not necessarily impacting me as a sales leader but in terms of the the the the when when you think about what the team looks like and um what the team can leverage to be more productive it's having a a a pretty massive impact on that how do you assess AI tools?

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Because I imagine that you're getting prospected and solicited by a whole bunch of companies promising the the best things in sliced bread with their AI tool work how do you know when to engage and when not to engage um so I mean we have an internal AI policy with the AI tools that we're allowed to use.

SPEAKER_03 52:33

We're a cybersecurity company so we have to be very careful with with with with what we what we use um but one of the problems that we see or what we're seeing from an AI perspective is that they're shiny new tools right and so you know you have each rep or each sales leader building an age an AI agent to do this and AI agent to do that an AI agent to do this and so there's this duplication of of effort um that we're seeing and there's this just use of AI which is which is which is not necessarily consistent across the team. That's something that I think is a not unnecessarily a problem but something that you need to to to to manage to make sure that the use of AI when the team is is effective you know across across across the board.

SPEAKER_05 53:21

Yeah and you're not just chopping and changing tools and everything yeah correct yeah it's um it's a it's an interesting one because I think and I've I've obviously I have a lot of conversations and being a cyber company as well lots of restrictions on what we can and can't use um for our work. And we're obviously investing heavily in AI as a company in terms of our products and securing AI products out there because they're just that everyone's forgetting about the security for some reason. If we're just sticking an AI agent on there and forgetting about that there needs to be security protocols in there. So we're we're really focusing that as a company but um one of the conversations that I've been having and a lot of MSPs are quite AI um intuitive and they're actually going out there and doing it is when someone says I want AI in my business or I want to be an AI business, what does that actually mean? Most of the time it means we want some automation. Yeah. That's what I want. My business process is already shambles or I could benefit from this and you want automation and that yeah AI can help with that but that's not what AI is designed to do. And then there's a lot of organizations out there that go I need to do something but I don't even know where to start I don't even know what what I can do. What like can someone help me? Yeah yeah and very few people are able to answer that or have a tool that can answer that question says well why don't you start with this and just throw some information in there and just see what it spits out. I think a lot of people are missing that gap right now. But there's um there's there's definitely influences out there. There's definitely people out there that are making it easier to transition to an AI world. The other thing the other conversation I was having my my brother's just about to start an AI company to design for exactly that you know what's the first step in an organization that can help with pretty much anything but this is where I could start my AI transformation journey is one of the things that he's found or that they're they're trying to solve for is AI at an organization level right now is not really cohesive. Not everyone is using the same sort of things maybe a co-pilot here or there whatever it is but a lot of individuals are really invested in AI. So those individuals are really getting productive and they're doing really cool things and everything and that's not a shared intelligence model across the organization. How can we make that? So then you actually encouraging the use of AI and saying like who's using AI in the organization or me, what are you using it for? That's really cool. Can you share what you're doing with some other people so we can have a shared intelligence a shared understanding of how we're using it and make it beneficial for the company and not just this one sales rep that's doing a phenomenal job of AI use and no one else is experiencing because there's no AI strategy. That's one piece that I think is um is really interesting that we can try and get some opportunity from do you believe that an AI enabled rep is going to be more productive no an I an AI enabled rep will 100% be more productive if they want to be productive.

SPEAKER_03 56:02

That's up to the rep. But it depends on the use of AI but 100% if if you're if you're an AE who is AI literate and is using that to drive it it might be automation but drive more productivity during their day I think 100% The reason why I initially said no is because a lot of people are using AI to be lazy.

SPEAKER_05 56:19

They're using AI to do the work for them and therefore they're not being more productive they're just getting average work out because they're not ready but an AI a really good rep that's using AI 100% agree they're going to be more productive than the non-AI do you assess for AI capability in an interview process? No.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

We haven't we haven't done that um would you start to that's a good question. Yeah that's a really good question we have I don't know if um I think it is becoming increasingly important to have a degree of understanding when it comes to AI and the use of AI and agentic AI to drive productivity.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

I mean I'd be concerned if someone is not using AI or that hasn't used AI within their day to day that would be a red flag I think um but I haven't interviewed and assessed their AI capability that's an interesting are you seeing it in market the moment yeah um it's it's same thing everyone goes yeah yeah absolutely they need to be AI literate what do you do you assess to that no how do you assess to that what does that mean but you know it's it's interesting because I've just um I've got a couple of friends are like deep into AI and I've gone from thinking um yes there's some productivity tools and efficiencies here to like I'm now of the belief that actually if implemented effectively AI can be absolutely transformational and I think that it can completely and utterly decimate particular functions within organizations. Support for example can be automated with AI um you know first level coding of software yeah second line coding can be software marketing agencies like all of those functions I think could be completely decimated by AI. I have you heard of Replit? Yeah yeah so I replit you know it's it's the competitive to lovable it's saying um it's like a vibe code coding app um which is just a vibe coding is effectively my interpretation it's a funky way of saying it's real language to write code yeah and Replit I've created just I do this in like 10 or 15 minutes just sitting in bed. I create an entire application that goes off and does a whole bunch of lead sourcing for me and I've got an application with a dashboard showing me all of the companies that are hiring in Australia right now that don't have local talent managers in country in 10 minutes I was able to create that. Yeah. So coming back to the I I I share your sentiment Reese an AI proficient rep will will probably give themselves a competitive edge.

SPEAKER_03 58:50

But again I don't think there's a maturity in um in in how to assess and and implement that and govern it as well yeah the governance piece is really important because you you don't want each rep having their own agent AI agent doing you know a bunch of different things there needs to be a level of throwing money confidential information in there which a lot of people doing correct and the other issue I see actually with AI particularly from a top of funnel standpoint is you know one of the issues that we saw maybe five years ago three years ago with outreach and sales loft those kind of prospecting automation tools is that it was just slop. The messaging was slop it was just the same generic email might be persona based if you're lucky but it's just rubbish good question for you do you think AI can replace sales people or any com or component from sort of junior to senior? I think it can as I mentioned before I think AI at some point will be able very effectively to replace particularly an inbound SDR and lead gen people just like what you've and experienced with your lead gen tool just made I mean you you don't need those yet the the the the the challenge I see with outbound is we've gone from no personalization sloppy emails sent by SDRs to now AI being able to deliver hyper hyper personalized emails. I got an email from it was clearly written by by AI but it referenced my amateur boxing it referenced my dog's name in there and this is all from an AI agent so you you've you're you're moving from no personalization to this hyper personalized stuff which is clearly AI and so we've just gone from one slot to another from an outbound perspective and I still think the phone is king when it comes to to booking outbound meetings. The fear I have is that that voice AI when that's going to come to a level where it's like a real person and they're asking the right questions and they understand the sales methodologies and qualification that SDR function is going to be in a bit of trouble.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:07

In a bit of trouble yeah I agree yeah it's funny we um the personalized email and you talk about vibe coding we were talking now at our in at our company that vibe coding is now a thing but therefore so vibe hacking and so you can use natural language to go generate malicious emails and malicious things and obviously now I come from the email security side of things um and the hyperpersonalized email is also a fantastic way for a vibe hacking person to go and deliver that so someone clicks on the link or someone downloads something or someone gives you access to their systems through that email because it's like this cannot be malicious. It's so personal and yeah absolutely I'll click this link yeah so it's very dangerous from both you know productivity levels but also security levels. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

I reckon we could go down a rabbit hole for a couple of hours on this topic. I want to start to to close because we're um yeah we we've been smashing through the time um when we met uh we were a lot younger had more hair had more hair uh fresh eye bushy tail yeah no kids uh naivety is bliss sometimes yeah and uh and fast forward today we've uh we we got families and wives and um I think that's a beautiful thing on the whole it is um I'd love to just get your opinion on the the impact on building a family um in your sales career like has that impacted your ambition your capability your allocation of time to uh getting the job done that's a really good question a child and a family definitely impacts you and gives you a different way of thinking about work life and social life I think for me time allocation outside of work has probably changed more so than my time allocation in work.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

Um the the reason being is you know I I I do want to during the week spend more time with Kai and Amy during the day you know but it's not you but on the other side is you you want to work as hard as you can so that you provide for your family and provide a future and that's a massive motivation to make any role that I step in to be hyper successful.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:19

And I know that you have to do the hours, you have to do the work and so time and location socially has probably made more of a shift to being a bit more of a you know uh recluse than a uh a time and location during well absolutely time in the weekends now is for is for the family it's you can't just go and book a golf tea time or go and just have lunch and dinner with the boys or whatever it is and four hours on a Saturday. Yeah yeah yeah yeah hey I have a golf golf club dinner membership yeah that's all I have yeah it's all I have exactly right looks good in the garage but I I like the way you put that time allocation outside of work um has definitely shifted still important to make time you know for the you know I've I have a core group of friends that I've had since kindergarten that you know every now and then we find the time we all get together and have the dinner um but it's not just hey what are you doing tomorrow sort of thing it's we got to plan it weeks out you've got to get you know permission you've got to put it in the shared calendar and all that but it's important to make time but you're right the time allocation is very much uh and because I travel so much as well yeah so it's not just I'm working and I'm not working I'm traveling so even when I'm not working I'm still in a hotel room in Asia somewhere and so I still miss that time. So when I come home it's very much you know even if I land on a Friday morning that Friday I will you know turn my phone off and make sure I'm there for for the kids and and for my wife and everything make sure that that time allocation at home is priority number one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

Yeah I yeah I agree and and what I've noticed um is the the value of a partnership in marriage is is critically important. There's support but also like I really see my marriage with Amy like a partnership. Like we're in we're in this together. We're in together we're winning together and there's gonna there's always gonna be sacrifices um whichever way you look at it but if you've got someone that is truly compatible and aligned with what you're trying to do and you treat each other with with respect and integrity and and uh and and have a shared value system I think that's that's good. It's very so gentlemen thank you so much for the time today thoroughly enjoyed it great conversations would love to keep going but um yeah let's call it a day there. Fantastic true thank you cheers thanks