Scales Of Success Podcast

#12 - Building Time Machines for Shoes with Geoffrey Gray

• Marcus Arredondo

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What if your shoes could predict their future? In today’s fascinating conversation, host Marcus Arredondo connects with Geoffrey Alan Gray, founder of Heeluxe LLC and creator of revolutionary shoe-testing technology. Geoffrey shares how his “Time Machine” helps top brands craft better footwear and explains the keys to building a successful business from the ground up. Learn why listening to customers is the cornerstone of innovation and how Geoffrey’s passion for science and sustainability shapes the future of footwear.

Geoffrey Alan Gray founded Heeluxe LLC, a company revolutionizing the footwear industry with cutting-edge testing systems that enhance shoe comfort, durability, and performance. In 2024, he launched FITGalaxie, the first cloud-based shoe testing database, allowing brands to customize results to their specific needs. With a background in physical therapy and engineering, Geoffrey’s innovations, like the Time Machine and SmartLast, have positioned Heeluxe as a trusted partner for leading footwear brands. His journey reflects his dedication to improving footwear and empowering brands with actionable insights.

Get in touch with Geoffrey Gray:
Website: https://www.heeluxe.com/
Email: info@heeluxe.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffreyalangray/ 
Phone: 949-636-3573

Episode highlights:
(1:43) Selling to a top shoe brand: Lessons in patience
(3:56) The creation of the “Time Machine“
(5:52) Shoe insoles and comfort prioritization
(9:50) The four keys of comfort
(17:54) Communication and data-driven design
(20:31) The future of high heels and dress shoes
(30:38) Building a team, simplifying innovation, and lessons from hiring
(39:36) Bootstrapping Helix: Challenges and rewards
(44:52) The role of partnership and mentors in entrepreneurial success
(50:05) Day-to-day routine and personal development
(53:26) Outro

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Note: The transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

Geoffrey Gray: 0:00

And you know a lot of these like heritage brands are really struggling and I think a lot of it was. They just failed to really meet the customer where they were at, like the customer's needs were changing and they just kept putting out the same thing and you can't really do that, you know. I think that the dress shoe industry was really lucky that they got to make, you know, oxfords and loafers and wingtips pretty much the same way for a long time.

Marcus Arredondo: 0:24

Today's guest is Geoffrey Gray, founder of Helix, a company that's been changing the game in the footwear industry for over a decade through cutting edge technology. But our conversation goes beyond shoes. It's a master class in entrepreneurial grit and business growth. In this episode, we dive into the mindset needed to sell a game changing product to one of the world's most well-known footwear brands. The importance of listening to your customers to fuel innovation, and the balancing act between patience and persistence in business. Geoffrey also shares how he bootstrapped Helix to success, the value of surrounding yourself with the right team and why understanding market demand is critical for any entrepreneur. Let's start the world and due to confidentiality, we can't express what it is, but everyone listening would certainly be able to guess within less than a handful of guesses. So tell me what that process was like to sell that product from a business perspective, but also from an emotional success perspective.

Geoffrey Gray: 1:43

Yeah, Marcus, that's a really good question. We're starting off with a big one too. You know, the first thing that comes to my mind, I'll be really honest, is it never happens as fast as you want it to. That's, honestly, the first thing, because, honestly, when I built this machine, it was, you know, we were excited about it. I had a few customers that I knew were excited about it, and I just thought like, oh, this is obvious, like people have been asking for this for a while now. We built it, people are going to want to use it, and that didn't happen that fast. You know, we we built the first machine in 2015 and we didn't sell one to a. We were testing, using it here for testing in our office, but we didn't sell one until 2020, uh, 2020. So five years is a long time, after you spent two years just to get it built. However, I think there's a couple of things that allowed us to get this deal done.

Geoffrey Gray: 2:35

Is number one for my team of researchers and engineers. They were never satisfied with how the machine was working that day. We always wanted to make it better, and then we were always listening to our customers on how we can make it better, and by listening to a lot of the customers, including this very large athletic brand. There was talk of them wanting to have these machines in their offices and listening to that really said, okay, well, let's figure out a way to make that work. And it was a great collaboration between this brand and my team.

Geoffrey Gray: 3:11

You know we installed this machine in the peak of COVID. You know this huge business campus had, I think, five cars on it when I went to do the installation. Like I mean, so nothing was like natural or how you would have planned it, but it all went super smoothly and super great. And then as soon as we sold them one, they came back within two years and had bought three more. So it was, you know, we thought like one was success and we did it. You know, like hooray. And then it just kept growing from there, just again because our relationship was so strong and we were listening to what they wanted just again because our relationship was so strong and we were listening to what they wanted.

Marcus Arredondo: 3:48

There's a couple of things that I want to dive into, but maybe first, for the benefit of people listening, tell us more about this machine. Tell us more about Helix and sort of what the genesis of that was and what is it doing.

Geoffrey Gray: 3:56

Yeah, so Helix is probably a very strange business for most people that are going to be listening to this. We are a shoe testing lab business. For most people that are going to be listening to this. We are a shoe testing lab, so we work with footwear brands to help them make better shoes by leveraging all the scientific data that we collect. And, for the most part, when I started this company in 2010, we were doing everything on humans. Every bit of testing was done on humans and it was great.

Geoffrey Gray: 4:21

But there's certain things that humans can't do really well, and one of them is it takes us a long time to wear out a shoe, like to break it down, and there weren't really great durability tests available on the market to see how long a shoe would last. And one brand first came to us and said hey, you have all this data on how people move. You could probably create like a robot or something like that that does that for us, right? And I was like I guess what are you getting at? And they're like well, we have this shoe that's on the market and it's developing a loud squeak after people have it on for six months and it passed all the other normal durability tests because they don't really act like a human.

Geoffrey Gray: 4:58

Could you build a human-like durability test? And my pride and ego was like, oh, I could totally do that. Like, oh, this is so easy, right. So we set out to, and this was our first big machine that we'd ever built. We'd never built anything that was like a testing machine. It ended up I went through like three different engineering groups. It took us like over a year and a half to build the first one, but that's what became what we call now the time machine. And the time machine is a rapid durability tester that will basically simulate a hundred miles of walking or 150 miles of running in four days.

Marcus Arredondo: 5:34

So brands can essentially see their shoes in the future, which is how we got the name time machine, and are you so you're measuring both the wear on the sole and on the on the base of the shoe, like what? What exactly tell us what sort of data you're measuring both the wear on the sole and on the base of the shoe, like what exactly? Tell us what sort of data you're picking up in sort of that 100, 150 mile test?

Geoffrey Gray: 5:52

Yeah, great question. So there's three main things that we're going to see for most shoes. One is what's called the outsole. That's like the rubber on the bottom of the shoe. How quickly is that wearing away? Then we're going to look at the cushioning, which is commonly called the midsole and insole part of the shoe. We're going to look at how that cushioning lasts. And then the upper is that top part of the shoe and we want to look and see how much that stretches out. Does it stretch out a lot and then becomes kind of baggy, or does it stay kind of like nice and form-fitting, like when you bought that shoe? So those are the big three things that we want to look at in this mission.

Marcus Arredondo: 6:25

So is it primarily athletic shoes that you're focused on or, from what I gather, it's a spectrum?

Geoffrey Gray: 6:31

Yeah, we do everything. The way I describe our business is we test everything from high heels to hiking boots. So we actually do a lot of occupational shoes, so like shoes that you might see people using in hospitals or restaurants or factory lines or construction. We do, you know, a lot of athletic, of course, but there's also, you know, hiking shoes and sandals and we've actually been doing a lot of 3D printed product on here now to see how these new 3D printed products work. And yeah, we actually have done some dress shoes on there as well. It's not requested as often because most people aren't wearing out their dress shoes, but it does happen.

Marcus Arredondo: 7:09

Let me ask you a random question on this. But how long should one be wearing a running shoe, for example? When's the right time to change it out? What should an average person be paying attention to?

Geoffrey Gray: 7:19

Oh, this is a good one.

Geoffrey Gray: 7:19

Hopefully this is like the usable tip that everybody can use out of this thing, because basically it was all based on you know how, when you should replace a running shoe was really just based on anecdotal evidence.

Geoffrey Gray: 7:32

What we found is that you know, most running shoes the outsole like that rubber on the bottom that's actually going to last a pretty long time. On our database average, it lasts around 600 to 700 miles on time. On our database average, it lasts around 600 to 700 miles. When we look at the cushioning, the heel cushioning tends to last around 500 miles on average and the cushioning in the ball of the foot, in the front part of the shoe, where it's a little thinner, actually only lasts around like 300 to 400 miles. So on average, most people should be replacing their shoes around 300 to 400 miles. A couple asterisks on there. Some of the racing shoes like these really high performance things that you see at the Olympics some of those only last 100 miles. So it does depend a little bit on the shoe, but on average I like to say 300 to 400 miles based on our data.

Marcus Arredondo: 8:20

And is there any benefit to changing the insoles to elongate that shelf life?

Geoffrey Gray: 8:25

Yeah, you know that's a really good point too. The insoles are that part that you can kind of pull out of the shoe. You know, sometimes it's called an insert or an orthotic or things like that too. A lot of it depends on the materials the brands use. So when we look at running shoes, a lot of them are using really good materials now, where the cushioning will last a lot longer. However, when we look at shoes that are maybe lower price points, like below $120 or more casual shoes or hiking product, they don't tend to use as good of an insole, so the insoles will actually break down faster, and then I definitely recommend replacing the insoles, and there's even from an environmental standpoint there's certain companies that are having easier to replace insoles, so you keep that like-new-shoe feeling for a lot longer. So there's a small company called Tracksmith that just came out with this really innovative design to swap out the insoles a little bit easier in their high-performance shoes.

Marcus Arredondo: 9:22

So what advice would you have for people? How would you prioritize the comfort of the shoe versus the comfort of the orthotic, for example? I mean, it seems like you're testing the shoe. Are you testing? You know the different types of ways people walk and run.

Geoffrey Gray: 9:41

Yeah.

Marcus Arredondo: 9:41

Between, you know the limited portion I know, between pronation and supination, you know like that, I think, has a factor, doesn't it?

Geoffrey Gray: 9:49

It does, you know, and so I came from a physical therapist background, right, so I got to work and talk with a lot of people about their shoes before I ever started this company, and one thing I think the scientific world has done pretty poorly is explain in really easy terms what people need out of their shoes. Poorly is explain in really easy terms what people need out of their shoes, so I always go back to what I call like the four keys of comfort. Number one is fit. Fit is so important to our comfort and comfort matters for every shoe Again, this high heels to hiking boots thing every shoe needs to be comfortable, and the number one influence on comfort is fit, and this was something that people talked about a little bit, but there wasn't a way to measure fit until we developed these sensors back in 2015. And so this was kind of another innovation thing that we did.

Geoffrey Gray: 10:34

I think most people in the footwear world think of when they think of fit, they think of Helux. Now that's one of our biggest deals, and when your shoes are fitting too tight, it is always going to be less comfortable and it actually can be harmful to your feet as well. So one of my idols. One of the people I've looked up to and read his autobiography a million times is Salvatore Ferragamo. Not only was he a genius and known for his fashion line, but he also got his start in Santa Barbara. He had a shoe repair shop here when all the silent movies were made in Santa Barbara, and since that's where my office is, I feel like we got a little bit of like a spiritual woo-woo connection or something. But Ferragamo was a genius and even in like the 40s and 50s he was saying if you truly care about your feet, it's better to go up a half size in your shoe.

Geoffrey Gray: 11:26

Most people are wearing shoes that are too small. So comfort is a big deal. Fit is the number one influence on comfort, and never, ever, wear a shoe that's too tight. After that, that's when we get into, like, the flexibility and stability of a shoe for sure, the, what I like to call the contour, which is that insole like the arch support and a heel cup in the back. That's really important too. And then the last one, but obviously it's the one most people think about, is the cushioning, and the cushioning is a huge part of comfort, but not every shoe needs to be soft, you know, like a basketball shoe or a cross training shoe they actually do better when they're a little firmer and kind of bouncy, whereas say, like a casual shoe is usually a little bit more comfortable when it's softer. So we help brands really identify like who's the target market of a shoe and how do you tune the comfort to that group.

Marcus Arredondo: 12:16

So I'm going to throw. I might be a free show here, but I have one foot that's at least half a size smaller than the other. I think that might be a result of injury over playing basketball for so many years, and ankle injury, maybe not. Maybe that's just how I was supposed to be. What advice would you give to somebody? I might be speaking for an audience of one.

Marcus Arredondo: 12:39

What advice would you give in sort of assessing that I'm actually. I know of a handful of people that have the same affliction, and I'm surprised that two companies haven't addressed this in some way. It seems like there could be an easy solve here, but I'm just curious if you have any insight on that.

Geoffrey Gray: 13:00

Yeah, so you know the way I look at fit. It's a really easy equation. It's fit is foot shape plus shoe shape, and all we measure over here is the shape of the shoe. But we do have this really cool partner company called Atrix that actually has these 3D foot scanners that you can just go into a store now and it'll measure your feet down to like fractions of a millimeter, so to identify, like, what's the difference between your foot shapes. And it's not uncommon for people, either through just genetics and how their body formed or through injury, to have really different shaped feet. And just so you know you're not alone A really amazing golfer named John Rahm. This week he actually won like the live annual tournament, whatever they call it, but he's been, you know, pga number one. He's just an amazing golfer. One of his feet is a centimeter shorter than the other side and that leg is actually two centimeters shorter, uh, and we worked with him to build like custom shoes that can help him perform on the golf course with these different shapes.

Marcus Arredondo: 13:59

So I'm glad that you brought him up because I wanted to ask about him. So you know, I think. But you brought him up because I wanted to ask about him, so you know, I think. First of all, I think it's super interesting how you're working with shoe companies, but I think maybe on an, I think it's more fascinating how you're working with individual athletes. Jon Rahm is, who's also a Central California local right. He's from Fresno, if I'm not mistaken. I think.

Geoffrey Gray: 14:24

I mean, he was born in Spain, but he's lived oh, no, yeah.

Marcus Arredondo: 14:27

I'm thinking I'm sorry, I apologize, I'm thinking of the other heavy hitter who will come to me in a second. Anyway, what would be interesting to know about how golfers, of all athletes, are using these shoes and the impact on them?

Geoffrey Gray: 14:46

You know, so it's from my little weird world of being a shoe scientist. You know there's not a lot of them in the world and most of the shoe research is done on running, and this is why running shoes across the board are the best performing and most comfortable shoes, because they get a lot of attention. From my perspective, I want everyone to have access to really comfortable, great performing shoes, and so we work on everything. And in the golf space, you know, the one area of golf shoe performance that everybody thinks about is the long drive, right, like how are we going to get all this massive power from these amazing athletes through their body, through the golf club, to the ball and then make it go straight and far? And that is really important. But they only do that 18 times a day. You know they're walking a few miles on every course, so these shoes have to be able to walk well and they also have to be able to have their feet balanced when they're taking a chip shot or a putt. And so a lot of the work that we've done is really looking at every aspect of the golfer and figuring out, you know, hey, what's, yes, what's going to help them hit these like monster drives. But also like how do we reduce foot fatigue by the end of the 18th green so that they're still having their ability to perform at their best?

Geoffrey Gray: 16:10

And this brings in all these different aspects of the shoes, like where are the traction cleats on the bottom of the shoe, or where does it flex? How does it fit? What materials are we making it out of? So there's a lot of really cool stuff that goes into golf shoes, and this mindset for us is the way we look at everything. We can look at a soccer cleat or a volleyball shoe, or a cross-training shoe, or all the way down to a shoe that's meant for somebody in their 60s that has trouble tying their laces, shoe that's meant for, you know, somebody in their 60s that has trouble tying their laces. You know, like everything has to look at what is everything that this shoe needs to do for?

Marcus Arredondo: 16:52

a person and how do we make that entire experience better? So it was Bryson DeChambeau who I was complaining about which is not the same golfer, but so that is really interesting.

Marcus Arredondo: 17:01

So you know, I used to wear growing up in high school wearing golf shoes. They were the most uncomfortable shoes I could ever imagine and we've gotten to the point now where they're close to tennis shoes. I mean they're very comfortable to wear. What are you seeing sort of evolve within the shoe industries as a whole? I mean that's a very broad question but you can narrow it down into whatever niche you think is probably standing out the most Through technology, obviously, through increased sensory data, even computational algorithmics, weighing into how to utilize some of these different materials. What are you seeing over the last decade, plus that you've been doing this, what technology is changing and what do you see going forward in the future of?

Geoffrey Gray: 17:54

Yeah, great question. And my knee jerk reaction on what's changed is communication and technology, and so a lot of the way the footwear world was working when I came into it back in 2010 was, you know, you had the factory over here and the factory would pick out the materials and do some stuff and you had the people designing the shoe and the people developing the shoe and all these different things, and everything was a little bit more isolated, and what technologies allowed us to do is get more data and then be able to have it interact really well. In 2010, there wasn't an understanding of, like, hey, how did the foot shape of an Asian basketball player compare to the foot shape of a North American basketball player? The data just wasn't there. Now we have all that and so we can understand like, oh cool, you're going to build this basketball shoe for people in the world. Well, ok, what's the foot shape? Well, that's how we're going to determine how it fits. Oh, you know what? In Asia, they tend to be playing on an outdoor court more. In North America, they're playing more on like a wooden gym court.

Geoffrey Gray: 19:04

Okay, well, let's change that rubber surface that we're using for the sole and this kind of interaction of data and communication across every part that's going into the shoe really became a lot better, and that's something that I'm really excited about. I think we're just on the cusp of that, you know. I think it's going to keep getting better. I will say if there is a negative about the footwear industry is it moves very slow. You know, in Santa Barbara we have neighbors like Raytheon and FLIR and Sonos all these like technology-oriented engineering companies, and they're like doing all this stuff like a rocket ship part that comes out in like two weeks, and for a shoe we got to wait like six months to have them make what they call a tool, like a mold, and then they put the foam in it and they make that part and then they get it to us. That thing takes months, and so we're. You know, footwear just is still really slow. Everybody wants to see it get faster and I think the technology is going to leverage and improve that process.

Marcus Arredondo: 20:04

I can't leave this conversation, which I'm actually hoping to come back to, without at least asking what's on the horizon for, on behalf of the female listeners, for high heels and more formal wear for women. Yeah, for those who choose to wear it. I mean, you know that's, that's uh. From my understanding that, at least visually, I can see how that is an uncomfortable process. Do you see any future there? That is, uh, more comfortable.

Geoffrey Gray: 20:31

There are some exciting products happening and I will tell you. You know, I've always been really passionate about working with women in high heels, cause I I saw it in my clinical days. We actually have a pair of men's size 11 high heels that I make all of the guys that work here wear for at least one day so they can understand what it feels like. And there actually is somewhere on the interwebs a video of me on E Network like walking around in high heels in the lab with with a couple other people. So yeah, I can understand the pain a little bit.

Geoffrey Gray: 21:03

But you know, covid really changed a lot of things. The pandemic really changed a lot of people's expectations for footwear and we were already seeing shoes get a little more like stretchy on top, a little more cushy, a little more flexible. You know, if you look at like the late teens it was, you know, allbirds came out and was this comfort revolution, covid everyone stopped wearing dress shoes, right? Nobody's going to the office, nobody's going to a wedding, nobody's going to prom, you know all these formal functions which just disappeared and people were wearing shoes that were a lot more comfortable when they were at home or they didn't have. You know they were on a Zoom call or whatever and they got used to that and the fashion industry hadn't really changed how they were making high heels for the most part. And now, as everything's coming back, we're seeing a lot more interest in making high heels better.

Geoffrey Gray: 21:55

But the customer is really saying, hey, how they were before isn't good. I want to see this change. I love the way a high heel makes me feel. I feel confident. I love my posture in it, I love these things, but they need to be comfortable, they need to fit better, they need to meet me where I'm at, and you're seeing some really exciting innovation in this space.

Geoffrey Gray: 22:16

There is a phenomenal entrepreneur out of San Luis Obispo not the fashion hub of the universe at all, but Haley started this company called Passion. That is like a high heel with a removable heel that can turn from a heel to a flat, and she's just incredible and that company is doing great. We just worked with Sarah Blakely, the founder of Spanx, on her new high heel line, sneaks, which is a total departure from what one would think of in a high heel. I mean, they re-engineered every single part of it and created this just dynamically different shoe you. But we are also seeing some of the brands that have been around for a long time come to us and say, hey, how do we change the fit, how do we change the cushioning, how do we give the customer a better experience and a high heel? And so there is a lot of change in that space. I'm actually really excited to see it happening now, accelerated by COVID.

Marcus Arredondo: 23:15

That's interesting. You bring up COVID too, because I, you know, and especially being in California, I think there's a more lax dress code in general. But you know, and I appreciate a more lax dress code because I wore a suit for a large percentage of my life, but there is sort of a loss of you know. You mentioned Ferragamo and it's like that. You go back to these times where formality was the norm and I do think people behave differently and I won't suggest that people aren't wearing suits anymore or dressing more formal, but more frequently seeing, especially in men, those who are wearing suits are wearing more casual footwear and what you're alluding to is a little bit of potentially making formal wear more comfortable, which ultimately, I think is what people are going for.

Marcus Arredondo: 24:05

Are you seeing any evolution in at least the men's footwear industry at all? I mean, I know to some degree we started to see, um, you know, some more shoe, the sort of more comfortable athletic shoes, but in the form of, uh, you know, boxer. Um, there was a trend for a little while where you could wear these looking like formal shoes, but they were soft and cushiony and comfortable. Are you seeing any of that evolution so that they maintain the integrity of the formality that some of those shoes were once originated for, or is that something that we're going to end up still being sort of in a forked pathway?

Geoffrey Gray: 24:50

That space in the market right here right now isn't doing great. You know, a lot of the dress shoe brands like you know Rockcorp, pretty much like shuttered. You know a lot of these like heritage brands are really struggling and I think a lot of it was. They just failed to really meet the customer where they were at, like the customer's needs were changing and they just kept putting out the same thing and you can't really do that. You know, I think that the dress shoe industry was really lucky that they got to make, you know, oxfords and loafers and wingtips pretty much the same way for a long time. But now it's time to change and there are a few startup companies that have really started to gain traction in that space of you know, men's formal wear. Because, honestly, like I'll wear sneakers with, like a dress outfit sometimes, but it doesn't always look great, like I'm not going to wear it to a wedding or something like that. You know it's. I want to put on a pair of normal like leather dress shoes and things like that. The other one that I'll tell you that's, that's really a surprise. Uh, is that's actually starting, I think, to to elevate this, this kind of more well-made leather upper like nice shoe.

Geoffrey Gray: 26:01

Nice dress shoe is the fact that they actually tend to be more environmentally friendly. A lot of sneakers they last maybe a year. They start to get scuffed up, worn out, lose their color, dirty, not cushioned anymore, whatever. I mean, I have dress shoes in my closet that I wear a lot and they look great and I've had them for over 10 years. There's a great guy in the in the shoe industry. That's a that's actually had the same pair of hiking boots since the late eighties and he just keeps getting them resold. Um, and that kind of sustainability story is, I think, really changing people's view on some of these shoes too. The most environmentally friendly shoe is the one you don't have to throw away, and dress shoes tend to last a lot longer. So I do think that there's going to be things about the dress shoe space that are good, but to your point, we got to elevate that cushioning. That cushioning the comfort, the fit all of these things have to be on par with why people are choosing to wear sneakers.

Marcus Arredondo: 27:02

I want to talk about before we go in, but just as a lead in. I want to talk about listening to people and meeting people where they're at, because I think that's an important consideration that you've mentioned a couple of times. But just for my own personal selfish interest, you buy a nice pair of dress, shoes you know, which are not insignificant in cost, and then it takes you three months to break them in. Is there any cheat to that? Because it is brutal for those three months. I'm just curious if there's any shortcut there.

Geoffrey Gray: 27:35

Yeah, there's a couple of things, but they're all not great. I will tell you one thing that's it's actually kind of like a throwback piece of equipment, but I wish it was more commonly around is a lot of, like NFL players and baseball players and soccer players, they have a cleat steamer that'll actually steam the materials, and then they put their foot in, and it helps it kind of stretch out, especially when you're using like that really nice, like kangaroo leather or something like that. Like it's amazing, but that's definitely one way is, like you know, steaming, steaming the leather, so it kind of molds around your foot. A lot of this, though, really boils down to the construction methods of the shoe, and this is where you know I respect the old ways. I think they're so valuable to learn how shoes were made, but the dress shoe industry has not wanted to let those things go, and this is why we're getting a lot of really stiff shoes that take a while to flex and feel like they're good. It's construction and materials, and that's where Heel Ups.

Geoffrey Gray: 28:33

As an innovator in this space and having some influence over the brands, we're always pushing them in that direction of like hey, you know, and here's the thing, I think this is actually an important topic, marcus, is benchmarking. You know a lot of people in this dress shoe space. They'll like say, oh hey, marcus, here's our new Oxford and compare it to the old Oxford that we made five years ago and you're like, yeah, it takes the same amount of time to break it in. And they're like, oh cool, it takes the same amount of time. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, don't compare it to this old Oxford. Compare it to a Nike Air Force One that somebody is going to go buy at you know whatever footlocker and they're going to be able. We have to have a different benchmark for the dress shoe industry and that's what we try and do with our databases and stuff like that is, let them know like what else is in the customer's closet that they think is the most comfortable shoe that they own. So hopefully we can create some change there.

Marcus Arredondo: 29:31

Yeah, no, I mean, look, I think sometimes you got to put in a little effort to get something good, so I'm not resigned to only wearing tennis shoes for the rest of my life, but it's not without its trials. So in building the machine so you got a lot of feedback from your clients on what they were looking for. I want to talk about, first of all, how you built the team. As a non-engineer, right, I mean, it'd be helpful to know sort of what your background in technology and science is. But to build the machine that you're referring to seems to require a lot of engineering, and I'm just curious how you went about putting that together, especially for you know, this is sort of the genesis of entrepreneurship, right, when you have an idea and then you need to gather the skill sets which are not always possessed by the person with the idea to build that team. How did you go about that? And then we'll take it from there. But I am curious about that iteration at each step of improving and receiving feedback.

Geoffrey Gray: 30:38

Yeah, I'll start at the very core of everything that we've built that's turned into a successful product for us and really contributed to the business. None of them were my idea. All of them were inspired by listening to our customers or potential customers. They all had the problems and they would just say like, oh my god, this is a big deal for us. And sometimes I would you know might be one customer. But then I'm like, hey, let me go talk to some other people and see if they're having this same problem. And then when I'd bring it up to them, like, oh my god, yeah, this is a huge problem. If you solve this, we would be interested right away. And then that really helped from that planning stage figure out, is this a problem that people would pay to solve? How big do I think the market's going to be for it? And then that kind of sets up. Now it's when my ideas start to go into it of like, okay, how do we go from point A to point B? But the inspiration all comes from listening to the footwear brands and providers that we work with.

Geoffrey Gray: 31:37

From there, I think, everything we've always built. We always keep a goal what does this need to do? It's always at the top of every meeting or the top of every document so we don't get distracted, because that's really easy to do. And then I think my team here, like I've always liked to build stuff, but it's like classic cars and stuff like that. I never built like testing machines. But I think everybody on my team and when we've worked with, I'd say, uc Santa Barbara's engineering department or different engineers and developers around town, all of them have this resourcefulness to just keep trying things until we get it to work, to meet that goal.

Geoffrey Gray: 32:17

And then, once we can get it to meet that goal, then we go back to the drawing board and be like, okay, how do we make it more simple? Like, how do we take out as much stuff as possible? Because I will tell you, everything we've built they break a ton when we start out. I want them to be perfect day one. That would be my dream, but I've done it enough times to know that that's not true.

Geoffrey Gray: 32:38

So the more simple we can make it and kind of get feedback from a lot of people on like, oh, this could break or this is going to wear out really fast, then that's how we're able to kind of hone it in and then, once we launch the product, we plan on getting so much customer feedback in that first, like one to two years, and we're telling all of our early adopters like, hey, where we're at right now is not where we're going to be in 18 months. Your feedback is going to set the direction of this product and that helps us make sure the product works, but it also kind of gets everybody invested in it too. So, you know, your question was like how do I build out the team? The team is actually like this huge net of people that are all contributing ideas and getting feedback and, you know, not just the people that are here building the machine with us. So I think that communication is just vital to everything we build.

Marcus Arredondo: 33:33

Well, as a business owner and operator, how do you determine? You know, what lessons have you gleaned over? I mean, your first sensor system was in 2014,. Right, I mean that's when you first built it. Over 10 years, I'm sure you've gone through some very qualified people who've been nothing but asset, and you've probably had a few that probably took away some of the spirit or morale on occasion. A filter to identify who's going to be a better candidate for the long run, who's going to be not just on all the tangibles, but all the intangibles that help to build out momentum, you know, within, within an organization.

Geoffrey Gray: 34:21

Yeah, so like, building like, the like, like the, the human parts of the team, right, like, how would I do that? Yeah, you know, that's when you're always going to make mistakes and you're going to have some, some huge victories there. One thing that I always go back to is uh, back when I was in physical therapy school, there was a one of my lecturers, uh, lynn Ford may, literally on the first day of class, went up to the whiteboard and wrote flexibility and a sense of humor and she's like, if you can have these two things, you're going to do great. And I was like and that stuck with me so much and I think this is something that I've seen in a lot of entrepreneurs and innovators is they get, they fall a little too much in love with an idea. And you have to be flexible on these things. You know your idea is going to evolve and change and take shape over time from that initial inspiration. And then what for me, what's what's really worked is you know we have, where we're, a scientific testing lab, but it's not like a normal thing, like you can't go get like a PhD or a master's degree and instantly be able to come into Helux and use our systems, like so much was built here and developed in. You know, we're always just trying to make new things. So, for me, I love people that have experience in the scientific method and then a passion for footwear. If they have those two things, I know that they're going to be able to apply that to the mission of the brand, which is we help footwear brands make better shoes. If they can do that, they're going to be satisfied and they're going to want to work on all of these projects because they can see that mission and why it's important, right? So? So yeah, there's that.

Geoffrey Gray: 35:58

The other thing we are a pretty small team, you know, of employees in the office. It's about 10. We have, you know, five to six consultants that work with us at any one time as well. It's a pretty small team. One time as well, it's a pretty small team. And one thing that's been really challenging and sometimes we have somebody that looks like a great fit for a project, but they don't fit in well with the rest of the team, and that's one that, to me, is really important. I want everyone here. They don't have to be best friends, but I want them to feel like they can work well together, and as soon as that breaks down, that's when I get more headaches. You know the business starts having problems, mistakes are made, you know customers aren't happy and so it's that vibe is really important between all of the staff and that kind of like adds into that culture thing, you know.

Marcus Arredondo: 36:44

Well, how do you test that? I mean because what people are in the interview aren't always what they are, you know in week 15. Yeah, do you include others in the interview? Aren't always what they are, you know in week 15. Do you include others in the interview? Is there an onboarding process where it's probationary and people get to work with them Like what's worked for you?

Geoffrey Gray: 37:01

Yeah, so our CFO, mike Stein, has been an amazing influence for me and you know he always we do a multiple stage interviewing process. Now the one thing about you know, a lot of the machines that we have in our office are really cool and like the idea of like testing shoes is really cool to a lot of people Not maybe everybody, but the people that want to interview to come work with us. So sometimes we'd see people they come into the lab and they get so excited about just what they're looking at that they forget that they're actually being interviewed. And so first thing is we want to, you know, usually do like a video call or meet just in like the conference room or something where we just get to know them. And the two things that have to happen and I like to see them happen in different interviews is one of them is we sell the interviewee on how great Helux is and the specifics of what the role we're looking for is. And then the second part is they have to sell us on why they're a great fit for us. And that to me like when those two things are met really well.

Geoffrey Gray: 38:03

And again, it has to start with us having really clear expectations of this is what this job is and what you're gonna be doing. And then, is that a match for you? And tell us why. Tell us why you're going to kick butt at this job. So if we can do that now, we've whittled down the field a ton. Then we bring them into the lab and have them meet with the team and experience the testers. I mean, we work fast. It's a pretty intense environment and so you know, some people see it and they see, like how loud it is and the communication that's happening and you can kind of tell like are they stepping up and they're meeting the researchers and asking them questions and they're engaging, are they like like deer in the headlights? And this is like way too much for them and it's not going to work. So you know you're not going to, like you said, you're not going to find everybody like what they're like at 15 months in, but that process has seemed to be pretty effective for us.

Marcus Arredondo: 38:54

That's good feedback. So let's talk a little bit about the transition I can only imagine from being a physical therapist at some point, and I'm interested did you end up doing this on your own? Did you end up taking outside money to start this? Taking outside money to start this? But the genesis I'm sure you encountered some blank faces when you told I don't know if it was friends or family that this was the journey you were going on. Tell me about the genesis of what spawned this idea. What got you going to actually formulate the business plan and then to actually leave a steady paycheck behind in search of something bigger and something you were more passionate about?

Geoffrey Gray: 39:37

Yeah, this is a fun one man. So I'll start out with where Helix started from, because I think that's going to be like this through line. That'll link up a lot of the points you just brought up. Helix, I was really fortunate with my physical therapy career to be spending about half my time at this place called the Peak Performance Project, which is a pro athlete testing facility and training facility here in Santa Barbara, run by this amazing doctor named Marcus Elliott just a total genius and really revolutionized this idea of testing athletes. And when I was there, I would be working on the athletes and I'm like well, hey, why don't I test them before and after I do my treatments to see if I'm making them better? And I was doing some shoe modifications and orthotics and some footwear stuff. So I really like foot and ankle. And the footwear brands that sponsored these athletes said hey, instead of testing the athletes, would you be willing to test shoes for us? And this was that first time that I really was just listening to them. It's like oh, you guys have these big labs at your office, though why would you need us? And they're like well, we want an unbiased facility to do the testing. We also want the testing to be done really quickly so it works with our product development timelines. And then at the end of it, we want you to tell us how to make the shoes better, not just give us a bunch of data. And that was the genesis of Helux was hey, let's help footwear brands make better shoes.

Geoffrey Gray: 40:57

And early on in that time I didn't have a lot of money and I was kind of doing this stuff like nights and weekends and I was trying to get investors to get behind the idea and a few of them were really great that they said, hey, you're not ready to be invested in yet, but we believe in you and we want to help mentor you. And that was huge. I mean, I use mentors to this day. I can't stress it enough. I didn't know how to run a company and they taught me everything. And about six months in, I was starting to get this contract set up with New Balance, which I was really excited about. I was like, oh, this is it. We're going to start growing, I need to move everything out of P3 and I need to open up my own lab and start to blow this up.

Geoffrey Gray: 41:39

And one of these mentors we were meeting, we were having some juice and he's like, hey, listen, taking investment money right now is going to kill your company. And I know it doesn't feel like it. But he's like what's going to happen is this is going to grow slower than you think it's going to grow and he knew a little bit about Fulwer already. But he's like this is going to grow slow. It is going to turn into a great business, but if I invest how much money you need, I'm going to want my return back sooner than you're going to be able to give it to me and we're going to close down the business. So he's like I know you don't want to hear this, but take on as much debt as you can, sell everything. You can bootstrap the heck out of it and try and stay working as a physical therapist as long as you can, so that covers some of your expenses. And he's like it's going to be hard, but this is how you're going to be able to build a business that lasts for generations.

Geoffrey Gray: 42:28

And that conversation I go back to all the time and it was so huge and really what it allowed me to do was develop stronger relationships with a few clients. First, listen to them, engage with them, rather than growing faster than I could really have handled at that time, start to learn what it was like to grow out a research team. And all this, two years in, we finally got into an office that we could turn into our own lab, and at that point we had a strong enough business that I could do it all off bank loans. And so to this day, helix is 100% owned by me and I am not against taking outside capital. I think that there's times that you can use it to leverage up in footwear, where it's a commodity business that you have to have like three or four seasons worth before you even really start making money. You have to have investments.

Geoffrey Gray: 43:19

But I am so grateful for that conversation that Ian had with me because it really just said hey, jeff, put in a ton of work right now. Like, don't be afraid, work your ass off. You got the fallback of the PT degree too. If it doesn't work out like you're not, you know you haven't just fully jumped without a net yet, and. But it really did shape the business up well and I can't I can't say enough times I'm naturally not an a patient person.

Geoffrey Gray: 43:46

I'm really impatient, I want things done fast, but that process actually got me to realize what it took to grow a business at a reasonable rate. And I don't know if this is going to be a great way to pull some people in your show, but I will say that scientists by nature are terrible businessmen. You need to learn business and this whole process got me to that point, and so now I have been able to. You know, with the new smart, last technology, we were able to take in some capital and have some partners in it and that kind of runs as its own separate company. But yeah, everything that I was able to do is just by saying like, hey, let's grow it at a reasonable rate, we're going to take on some debt, but we're going to be smart about how we spend our money. And now I get to own 100% of this really awesome company.

Marcus Arredondo: 44:35

So that's such a great response and actually something that I wasn't expecting, and I think there's a couple of questions. I think the meatiest one that I'm interested in is what skill set do you think helps you persevere during that timeframe, and how did you come to obtain it?

Geoffrey Gray: 44:51

Yeah, one thing I will tell you straight up, honest, is that process is a lot easier if you have a partner. I know a couple other companies that started up around the same time as I did. There's going to be bickering when you have partners too, don't get me wrong, but you're going to have just absolutely crappy days and that ability to share that with somebody else and they can be like hey man, I know this is tough, but we're going to get through this together. That's really helpful. Every solo entrepreneurs that I know really struggles in that time. Like you're going to feel, like you're getting kicked in the face every day. The debt is going to weigh on you every night when you go to bed. You're going to just like obsess on every mistake or loss or whatever happened right Until you start to become successful. That is where, like, your network and your mentors are the only thing that I can think of that are going to get you through.

Geoffrey Gray: 45:48

You have to have other people that have been through this before and can say like hey man, I know you're in this tough spot. You have to have other people that have been through this before and can say like hey man, I know you're in this tough spot. This happens to entrepreneurs. What you're feeling is normal, but you have to get through this, and getting through it is how you're going to turn this into a really successful company.

Geoffrey Gray: 46:04

If you're just left to your own devices during that time, I fully believe this is why a lot of people stop, like it is so hard to get over that hump and turn this like idea or product into a business. It's stopping feels so easy. And don't get me wrong. There's times like I've been 10 or 12 years into the company and you think about it. You know like, oh, I could just go to a job and collect a salary and leave every day at five. That sounds pretty freaking good, but at the end, like the greater good of running this company, it's way more important to me and I only got there because people that had been there before me helped me get through it myself and it's mandatory.

Marcus Arredondo: 46:42

How did you go about finding mentors? What advice would you give to somebody seeking? One I mean it's unique to each individual business, but underlying common denominator skill sets that might benefit people.

Geoffrey Gray: 46:54

Yeah, I had great success with the SCORE group, s-c-o-r-e whoever's SCORE retired executives or whatever it is. I have three mentors that I met from there Dick, vic and Gary uh, that have been with me now for over 12 years and they were fantastic. Um, the other thing that you know I learned early on is a lot of people that have been entrepreneurs or even on the funding side of things too. They're willing to help if you ask for it. And then when they give you advice, if you take action on it, they're going to keep giving you help.

Geoffrey Gray: 47:29

So the two things that I did is I was never afraid to see somebody in the community like, hey, can I ask you some questions? I'm starting up this company and I'd really value your advice. And then I'm going to them with specific questions and I really want to learn from them. And then, once that's done, they're like, hey, jeff, I think you should really do this and this. Then I'm like I'm going to go take action on those things and I'm going to report back how it went. And then that made them like, oh, when I'm spending time with Jeff, he's actually valuing that time, and it kind of grew from there. So you got to be just shameless and reach out to people and say like, hey, can you help me out? And a lot of entrepreneurs will, which is just that, you know, because they know. They know how hard it can be. Yeah, so that's been really, really helpful.

Marcus Arredondo: 48:15

I think that's a really critical distinction. That you just made, though, is following through with what they're recommending. I had a mentor it was a partner of mine and I had come down a little aggressive on a vendor and he pulled me aside and he's like hey, you don't really want to be that guy, you know. And I said what are you talking about? And he's like there's been a comment made about you know how you responded to somebody and I? I immediately knew what he was talking about and the release of that ego. At that moment where I looked at him, I said I'm so grateful that you told me that this will never happen again, and I really think it formatively changed the dynamic of the relationship between me and him and I am substantially better as a result of that feedback he gave me.

Marcus Arredondo: 49:12

But it really resonates with me what you're saying, because I think anybody in your role values time as much, if not more, than anything else, right, because that is your time and your energy, really, or your greatest commodity, and, as an advisor or a mentor, providing that feedback, if it's not heated to you, are wasting energy and time, and so, just like you said, in terms of flexibility, you identify with what's not working and you pivot and you move on. Somebody who's already been through this before as a mentor is going to say this isn't really benefiting him. I'm going to just not stop wasting my time. So I think that's really fantastic. So let me just ask you this Two things One what's your day-to-day like? What's your typical schedule? Like? What keeps you on track when you wake up and you go to bed? What happens in between?

Geoffrey Gray: 50:05

So I got to do something physical pretty much every day. So that's going to be morning or afternoon. I'm going to, you know, go hike or go surf or go run or do something with my body. Hopefully it's with friends, you know, that's all I like to be social and then. But you know, I think so there's going to be some physical. As I've gotten older in this space I do have to.

Geoffrey Gray: 50:26

I plan my meals out now, just so I'm like I'm getting good nutrition, especially if I'm on the road, meeting with clients or doing trade shows or whatever. I'm really focused on making sure that I eat well. And then I'll say the one thing that I'm probably pretty bad at is sleeping. I've never been a long sleeper. I could go on like three hours a night if I had to, which is a total skill when you're starting a company, but I know it's not good for your health.

Geoffrey Gray: 50:50

My workday, you know, one thing that I think is really important for every entrepreneur is at some point you got to let go of things, and it's really freaking hard.

Geoffrey Gray: 50:58

And right now, pretty much my workday is focused on sales and business development, because that's the thing that I can do to bring the most value to the company and I have all these other people that are in charge of things, and so I just might oversee them or they might come and talk to me about some stuff, and so that's really. You know, my normal day to day is a lot of, you know meeting with the brands and like, who are our customers? Meeting with them and listening to them, listening to my staff about how things are going in the office and I'm always trying to be better at that, but that is what I need to do every day. And then you do some budgeting and some financial forecasting or some fun podcasts for marketing or something like that. But my day-to-day changes a lot, which is, I think, one of the best things to be an entrepreneur, but I do have to focus on a few specific skills at this point in the business.

Marcus Arredondo: 51:50

Great response. Last question what's on your mental diet? What are you listening to reading for your spirituality, for your brain, for your own development? What's giving you energy right now?

Geoffrey Gray: 51:59

I digest a ton of books. Right now I'm actually reading this book by a guy named Shaka Shakur. I got to see him interviewed by Oprah at this amazing new bookstore called Godmothers in Santa Barbara. Everybody's got to come check it out. It's insane. But this guy's story is bananas. But I love autobiographies. I switch back and forth between business autobiographies so I get motivated about how people do it. And then I also love rock and roll biographies. So reading Duff McKagan from Guns N' Roses autobiography and I'm like wow, I really wanted to be a rock star, but I'm really glad I didn't. So those two things are my favorite things to read. So a couple favorites. I love Salvatore Ferragamo's autobiography Shoemaker of Dreams. It's fantastic. The other one is John Wooden and the Men of Oregon. It's a fantastic book. Everybody loves Nike's Shoe Dog, but I think the Bill Bowerman story is just as good, if not better. And then I love Kobe Bryant's Mama Mentality book. Those are like the three that are on my desk that I go back and reread nonstop.

Marcus Arredondo: 53:04

Awesome, Geoff. It's awesome to have you. Thank you so much for your time. Where can people get ahold of you if they want to, and who are the people that you'd like to hear from?

Geoffrey Gray: 53:13

Yeah, linkedin is great for me. We do a lot of posting on like cool shoe stuff that people like to hear about, so LinkedIn is fantastic. People can shoot me a message there. And then we got like the normal HealLets websites and things like that.

Marcus Arredondo: 53:26

Awesome Thanks, Geoff, really appreciate it. Thanks.