Scales Of Success Podcast

#25 - From Defusing Bombs to Rebuilding Nations with Courtney Buck

• Marcus Arredondo

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What happens when your ability to focus is the only thing keeping you alive? In today’s gripping episode, Marcus Arredondo talks with Courtney Buck, a former Army bomb technician turned global health and policy expert, whose story moves from the battlefield to boardrooms. Courtney shares what it’s like to disarm explosives under extreme pressure, why development aid is more than just charity, and how raising kids to avoid labels is his most meaningful mission yet. You’ll hear jaw-dropping stories, honest reflections, and insights that challenge how we think about risk, purpose, and public service.

Courtney Buck is a U.S. Army veteran, former EOD technician, and founder of Courtney Buck Investments. After serving in Afghanistan disarming roadside bombs, he moved into roles with USAID and the CDC, working on global health and foreign policy. Now based in Florida with his wife and four kids, Courtney focuses on real estate investment and raising a family rooted in curiosity, courage, and resilience.

Learn more about Courtney Buck:
Website: https://www.courtneybuckinvestments.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/courtneyryanbuck/?hl=en
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtney-buck-6867736/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/courtneybuckinvestments/

Episode highlights:
(2:49) Who is Courtney Buck?
(6:39) What USAID really does?
(11:17) China’s growing influence in Africa
(17:36) Fallout from USAID closure
(20:56) Becoming an EOD technician
(26:52) The reality of disarming bombs
(31:28) Finding peace in chaos
(41:19) Lessons for raising resilient kids
(44:51) Inside the CDC before and during COVID
(49:06) How disease spreads globally
(51:18) Why U.S. response was so hard
(53:58) People Vs. Public health messaging
(55:47) Grace for leaders in crisis
(59:02) Outro

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Note: The transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

Courtney Buck: 0:00

Uh, but one of the benefits of having ADHD is your ability to hyper-focus, and thank goodness I had that. But it takes an amazing amount of danger or risk for me to hyper-focus. So when I played rugby, if I don't hit somebody right, I'm going to injure myself just as worse than they are. Or if I don't take a hit, good, I'm going to get really beat up. Uh, same thing with same thing with disarming a bomb. If I, if I don't take a hit, good, I'm going to get really beat up. Same thing with disarming a bomb. If I can't focus, I'm dead, I'm gone.

Marcus Arredondo: 0:30

Today's guest is my friend Courtney Buck, a combat vet turned entrepreneur, with a career that's as explosive as it gets From disarming roadside bombs in Afghanistan as a US Army Explosive Ordnance Disposal or EOD technician to shaping Shaping Global Health Policy at USAID and the CDC. Courtney's journey is a masterclass in resilience and strategic risk-taking. He opens up about his experience at the CDC during COVID, where he faced ridicule and harassment, witnessing firsthand how people's fear clashed with science. He also discussed some of his work at the USAID, having witnessed the three-legged stool of defense, diplomacy and development that once countered Soviet sway now falter against China's rise. As a husband and father of four in Florida, his EOD-honed grid shapes a life of calculated risks and shares why raising four kids with a no-pigeonholing mindset is his most meaningful mission. Yet Courtney's life is a study of calm to chaos and clarity to complexity. Let's start the show. Courtney Buck, thanks so much for being on, man. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you. Likewise, I have.

Marcus Arredondo: 1:36

I'm looking off to the side here because I want to refer to this Just to set the table for the audience here. I want everybody to understand the scope of experience that you have because it is unique. It is a lot of work to get the skills that you have and it's not without its own pain physically, mentally, spiritually, I'm sure. So you've got a bachelor's of science and technology from Missouri University and then a master's in international relations. I'll only give that as a background, because your professional experience is staggering.

Marcus Arredondo: 2:10

I'm sort of going to fly through this and I'm going to butcher it, but I think people need to understand the breadth and depth of what you bring to the table, which is why I wanted to have you on just for marking this. This is March 28th, so I think it's worthwhile to frame that March 28th 2025, as it relates to and I'm not attempting to get political here. I'm interested in politics, but I'm a lot more interested in the experience of those people on the ground and sort of what this all means. But there have been the closing of several departments, which we'll get into in a second and you can speak to directly. So quickly, setting the table, I'm going to let you speak.

Marcus Arredondo: 2:45

By the way, I know this is no go for it I'm going to allegate to you, but you've had a series of military and intelligence roles for over 12 years, most notably explosive ordnance disposal technician, which, for lack of better words, is a hurt locker, just to put things into perspective for listeners. Is that a fair?

Courtney Buck: 3:03

assessment things into perspective for listeners. Is that a fair assessment? Not quite as sexy, but yeah, my job was to disarm bombs roadside bombs, IEDs, car bombs. Okay, as part of the team, not just me.

Marcus Arredondo: 3:12

Perfect. Thank you for that clarification. You were part of the presidential protective detail. You've been deployed to Afghanistan. You were an economic intelligence officer for the Defense Intelligence Agency. You've been deployed to Iraq. You've supervised over 4,500 hours of manned and unmanned ISR aircraft, which I want to get into. You're a Presidential Management Fellow which I think is worth also exploring. You're part of the US Army Reserve. Public health and international policy roles include services at the CDC, which I certainly want to dig into, which was during or preceding or during COVID. Is that correct?

Courtney Buck: 3:50

Preceding and during and well into.

Marcus Arredondo: 3:54

Okay, you were a desk officer for Thailand, uganda, tanzania, south Africa, georgia, ethiopia, zika virus liaison officer the list sort of goes on and on Senior health policy analyst at the CDC. Now you're an entrepreneur in the private sector, but I just wanted to get a little bit of the frame of reference here. What I did not include, last but not least, was the presidential management fellow was with the USAID. So I want to start this conversation off with the USAID, because that seems to be the biggest point of interest for me personally, because I don't think many people understand really what it does. Despite all my research, I don't think I'm scratching more than the surface, and so, for the benefit of the audience, I did do a little bit of research. So I'm going to read this real quick and then I'm going to flip it over to Courtney so you guys can stop listening to me speak Real quick.

Marcus Arredondo: 4:46

So the United States Agency for International Development, usaid, was established in 1961 from a push by an executive order of JFK as a countermeasure to Russian influence and to integrate several aid agencies that were already in existence. It is an independent US government agency responsible for administering civilian foreign aid and development assistance for over 100 countries, focusing on global health, disaster relief, socioeconomic development, and with an annual budget that has reached up to $40 billion, which was fiscal year 2023, it represents less than 1% of the federal budget. Usaid is overseen by the Secretary of State A couple more sentences. Over its 64-year history, it has achieved significant successes, such as aiding Haiti after the 2010 earthquake, supporting Ukraine, post-2022 Russian invasion. Despite facing challenges like political scrutiny and funding uncertainties, usaid plays a crucial role in promoting sustainable development and advancing US foreign policy interests. Its potential absence could lead to increased global poverty and a decline in US influence, as it was originally founded to counter Soviet influence during the Cold War by fostering development and democracy.

Marcus Arredondo: 5:57

Side note, a lot of that was helped by AI. So there are potentially flaws in what I just said. Don't anybody take it as fact, but I wanted to give some context. So, starting with USAID thank you for listening, courtney Can you just give us a sense of what you did in it and what's your take on its influence contribution not just to the development of third world countries and the like, but also as a matter of national defense on a global stage? And I'll let you take it from there. But I just wanted to give you some context on sort of where I was interested in first exploring.

Courtney Buck: 6:38

So if you see me turn my head, I'm making notes as you go. So this is great. So let's take a little bit of a step back and talk about just American foreign policy at its most highest level. And it used to be that it was strictly defense. So we were the strongest person in the sandbox. After World War II we defeated the Japanese in Germany. We hoped to settle Europe and make it more profitable, more democratic and move it forward and take it away from communist influence, and the same thing happened in Japan and Southeast Asia. But as time has gone on American foreign policy and I should add in here, I no longer work for the government so I can be a little more free in what I say. So some of these are not only opinions but what I've actually seen and saw and have experienced firsthand. Used to when I would get interviewed I'd have to put in a three minute asterisk on my. That these were my opinions only is three. It's a three-legged stool. First is defense, and I'll break it down to just the simplest way I can. If American foreign policy was a sandbox, defense is you protect your sandcastle, you protect your friend's sandcastle, you help people who are more vulnerable. That's one leg of it. The second leg is diplomacy. That's making friends with your buddies in the sandbox. That's what the State Department's really good at, and every country across the world has some kind of diplomatic mission to either establish better trade, make friends where they didn't have friends, maintain friendships. So that's the second leg. The third leg, which has become kind of flown under the radar for years, is development, and that's where USAID comes into play. So you mentioned how we were trying to help out people, especially in Europe, distance themselves from the communist manifesto and the communist influence. Well, we're trying to do that now, not just for communism, but just for when you help people in the sandbox, protect their sandcastle, make friends in other sandboxes and then, if their sandcastle gets knocked down, you can help them build it back up. That's such a basic example, but that's the most simplified way I can explain it. What are they going to think? They're going to think oh, marcus is a great guy, he helped me build my sandcastle back up. That's what we wanted to do in the United States. We great guy, he helped me build my sandcastle back up. That's what we wanted to do in the United States. We started international development programs in the 60s I think it was JFK that started them to basically make friends, take influence away from our adversaries, and that's something that we've continued to do.

Courtney Buck: 9:18

So when I started at USAID, that was 2013,. I had just finished up my master's degree and I applied to this thing called the Presidential Management Fellowship and I didn't think I was going to get in. There was only two or 300 slots and nearly 10,000 people applied and you had to have a PhD, a JD or a master's degree just to apply, and everybody at the table was Ivy League Northeast guys. And here I was, from a state college, a tech school that nobody had ever heard of in Missouri, but not to pat myself on the back. But I brought something that most people couldn't, and that was a time overseas disarming bombs, and it was a little more entertaining for the interviewers to interview me. So I made that and I went in and I immediately started working in the office of the administrator, and the technical name was the executive secretariat.

Courtney Buck: 10:12

It's not a secretary. We're the intermediary of foreign policy between the administrator and the state department and the White House and then intelligence agencies in DC as well, so we would work on not only processing his communications between those organizations, but those organizations and the rest of the world that we worked with with development. So we had different offices, whether it was sanitation offices, good governance offices, immediate disaster offices. Like you mentioned Haiti, when Haiti got struck by the earthquake, that was an immediate assistance. But if you work on sanitation, it means you're helping dig wells, drill wells in South Sudan and provide good pipelines that are clean pipelines to bring water to different cities. That's long-term projects. So that's USAID at a. That's long-term projects. So that's USAID at a 30,000 foot view. We want to make friends, we want to keep those friends, we want to take away influence from our adversaries, and I can say this now, after working in Botswana, or worked in Botswana for a little bit before we met China is all over Africa for various reasons.

Marcus Arredondo: 11:26

There's a very large China. I'm glad you're bringing this up, because I was going to ask specifically about that.

Courtney Buck: 11:30

Yeah, and you look at all the different construction projects that are happening in that specific country and other countries that I visited, a lot of them are Chinese funded the manpower, the cranes, the goods, and they're kind of beating us to the punch where we were lagging for decades because we were focusing on mainly wars in the Middle East and we weren't able to effectively go into Africa and other parts of the world to maintain a presence, to be that good guy in the sandbox to help people where they need help. So China's had a big influence in Africa and I think we're going to most Americans don't know about it, but we're going to feel it when it comes to rare earth metals, critical earth metals and other goods.

Marcus Arredondo: 12:15

Well, I want to dig scratch that a little bit, because it's not just that we're making good friends. There's some self-interest there, right, and I think what China's doing now in Africa is probably the strongest case study on this. And I'm wondering if you can help to sort of fast forward 10, 15 years for the audience to understand. How does that manifest into true advantage for the Chinese government and its people relative to us? I mean, part of that is you know that assistance effectively defends against our intrusion to some degree, right? If they're already solving problems for some of these African countries, those African countries don't need the solution to come from the US any longer, so that problem has been solved and so we get relegated as a nation outside of the boundaries of assisting them. So there's a little bit of a defense mechanism. But why is that so important?

Courtney Buck: 13:11

Yeah, I guess let me back up before I give you a forward example, and I'll back up while I'm trying to think of a good forward example. When 9-11 happened over 20 years ago and we were going to invade and go into Afghanistan, we went to Pakistan and we've been helping Pakistan for years, decades, with foreign aid and teaching their soldiers over here how to fight. Can you give us?

Marcus Arredondo: 13:36

some examples. So we're sending US military to aid in their training.

Courtney Buck: 13:42

In their training and we're bringing them over here as well. We're bringing them to our bases to train we their training and we're bringing them over here as well.

Marcus Arredondo: 13:47

We're bringing them to our bases to train. We're sending money to private sectors there to continue to build their businesses. Are we sending our own private businesses over there?

Courtney Buck: 13:54

There's earthquakes all the time over there. So we're building up development projects, usually infrastructure projects, large infrastructure projects, school sanitations, sewer systems literally like how to make concrete better. So when you have an earthquake, your three-story apartment complex doesn't fall in on itself, which happens all the time when there's earthquakes. I think there was an earthquake this morning somewhere in Southeast Asia. We make concrete buildings in America really well. Western Europe does a great job too. South Asia not so much. So when there's a natural disaster there, buildings collapse. It just turns into one big concrete pancake. Inoculate their cattle or how to breed cattle, having cattle programs where you teach people how to I don't know how to do this, but how to breed cattle properly, to make bigger, healthier, fatter cattle, to be able to feed their population.

Marcus Arredondo: 14:53

And all the people on the ground? Are US government employed or are you contracting out to private parties?

Courtney Buck: 14:58

Contracting out. That is key, and I'll bring this up when we talk about COVID. You don't want people that look like us from the United States coming in saying you're not doing it right, we're going to teach you how to do it. It's just, it looks horrible. You want to partner with organizations on the ground who are reputable, have the not just the financial means, but the ability to track things financially, because we're giving them a lot of money. They got to track and we we need proof that they're doing the things that we want them to do now. Yes, it is in good faith, but and when 9-11 happened, condoleezza Rice calls up the president of Pakistan and says tells we're going to use your bases, we're going to use your land as a jumping off point. We didn't for the most part, but that bought us a lot of influence. We didn't have to ask permission so much. Yeah, we said we're going to do this. We just were attacked. They're coming from this part of Afghanistan. You're going to play well with us right now.

Marcus Arredondo: 15:56

Well, I think that's a great example of how China could be using Africa as well, absolutely to, at this point, I think, in our technological development. Build an infrastructure there that you can start to use as a leveraging point for, if nothing else, propaganda, but certainly to influence outcomes on a more international stage. As ponds, for lack of a better word.

Courtney Buck: 16:31

Yeah, absolutely. I'll never forget sitting on top of the the Masa square hotel, sitting by the pool having a drink, and I'm looking out over downtown Gaborone, botswana, and I'm seeing Chinese company, chinese company, chinese company building their infrastructure and I'm like, oh we're, we're decades, we're a decade behind. We can help them as much. I was there for an HIV program called pep bar that George W Bush set up and it's a fantastic program. If you ever have a chance to look into it. It's helped a lot of people survive AIDS, hiv. But we're way behind. But we were. Now we're catching up. Not even catching up right now, at this point we are throwing it off. We're kicking the dead horse off to the side of the road and we're not following up on those programs that we have established.

Marcus Arredondo: 17:25

Well, when you saw that the USAID was eliminated completely, what were some of the first thoughts you had relative to its ramifications?

Courtney Buck: 17:35

I had two.

Courtney Buck: 17:37

The first one was I was thinking of all the people in these countries that are going to lose these projects and I see the long-term value, not just strategically but for the actual little girl or a little boy who's going to get clean water on the ground.

Courtney Buck: 17:54

A lot of these projects are dead, or they're not going to be completed or the money is just going to disappear and they're not going to use it the way that we want them to. The second one was 10,000 people literally just got laid off and let's see 2,000 of those 10,000 people work in DC and I knew hundreds of them. Some of these people were military veterans like me. Some of them did 20 years in the military service and put in 10 or 15 years and then they just showed up and said they don't have computer access, they can't fulfill their obligations overseas, the people they've been interacting with, they're not able to help anymore. I was so upset, I was so upset. I was so upset. So people are losing out on great projects overseas and 10,000 people lost their job and about 8,000 of those people were foreign workers that are contracted by the United States government.

Marcus Arredondo: 18:50

What do you think? Well, we can transition to another subject, because I think there's a lot to cover here, but what are some of the projects you're most proud of relative to USAID? And also, what do you think most people don't know, don't understand about USAID? I think most people in the United States Because, to be honest, I think this is the first time most people have even heard of that term.

Courtney Buck: 19:14

This sounds horrible. I didn't hear about it until they came and recruited me. I was working at Hurlburt Field Air Force Base, which is a special operations base here in Florida and that's close to where I live now. But I was working on different programs and I was in the military and I got this presidential management fellowship from 2013 to 15. I had no idea what these folks did and then I got to go see like the broad range of things they did, from making sure there was enough food and grain and meat and people's stores and grain silos to be able to feed their country.

Courtney Buck: 19:52

It sounds petty but, like you know, I go to Whole Foods all the time and I'm like, oh, they don't have gluten free today. You know, you just think of what petty thing you want to think about. Like, yeah, these people, their day to day survival is, oh, do I have bread tomorrow? I hope I have bread. I hope I have clean water so my four year old doesn't die of dysentery tomorrow, and you've seen this firsthand. Yes, yeah, yeah, that changes the perspective. Hell, yes, sorry about that, but yes it.

Marcus Arredondo: 20:18

Does it really? This isn't a government program, that's true.

Courtney Buck: 20:23

But yeah, it, it, it resets your mind of what's really important. And yeah, I get upset by traffic. But our roads are awesome for the most part in the United States, like it, you know, in Afghanistan it might take you six hours to go 10 miles because it's they have to rebuild part of the road that washed out the night before. Like you know, I've seen this in multiple countries.

Marcus Arredondo: 20:44

All right, so I can't I mean, we can't have this conversation and not talk about your explosive ordnance disposal experience. So how did you get into it? I mean, how do you find yourself in that role?

Courtney Buck: 20:55

Through a fraternity brother. I went to the Missouri University of Science and Technology and studied economics and mathematics. That's super nerdy, it's way nerdy. But I was kind of a wild child. In college I played rugby and I was in fraternity. I studied hard but I played just as hard. So I was that nerdy kid who always got in trouble in high school.

Marcus Arredondo: 21:16

For the record, because people can't realize this, but you're a big boy. You're well over six feet and you're a very strong dude, 6'3" about 250.

Courtney Buck: 21:27

Yeah, with a little fluff, but you know, sure, I'm good for rugby, Bad fluff, yeah, yeah. So I was getting close to graduation. 9-11 had already happened. I had graduated in 2003. So I'm looking at my life and most of the mathematicians that were coming out of my school, or economists, were picked up by finance firms to do quantitative analysis and to me that sounded like the worst job in the world. I did not want to sit at an Excel sheet like I do now and analyze it all day long, but that's what the prospect was was to go work or go to grad school and get a master's or a PhD. So I was talking to a fraternity brother. He had just come back from the invasion of Iraq. He's like guys, there's these guys over there. They wear bomb suits and drive robots and they tear apart these things called roadside bombs, ieds, car bombs, and I thought that was the coolest thing. So I went down that day and talked to the recruiter and asked him about it. So you don't have any background.

Marcus Arredondo: 22:31

Your family is not military.

Courtney Buck: 22:35

My parents aren't, but I have plenty of aunts and uncles that were Vietnam vets. Okay, yeah, so I went down and did it, I enlisted, I had to wait a few months to ship out, but I sold my car, broke up with my girlfriend and I was just like off to the adventure a young man's adventure back in 2003. And a year later I graduated at UOD school and was sent to Fort Riley, kansas. And about a year after that I went to Afghanistan the first time, and that was growing up.

Marcus Arredondo: 23:05

So what's the gradient like, I mean, from basic training to actually being deployed into combat zones? Say again, what was the first part? What's the gradient like? I mean, I don't think there's ever going to be a point where you're comfortable going into that. I could be wrong, but it seems like a tall order to be thrust into that environment. But my understanding is that there is an acclimating process where you start to engage with more of those situations to for lack of a better word get used to being in those environments. So I guess really my the bottom question to me is like did you, were you comfortable going into those combat zones but at the time that you were actually deployed, or was there still a lot of hesitation? I mean, are you just being thrown off a cliff and being told to survive?

Courtney Buck: 24:00

So I was thinking of two different scenarios where I call my OSHIT scenarios like oh my God, this is about to happen, or get real. There was actually three. The first one was all my drill instructors and all the cadre which are the instructors at basic training. All of them had been to Iraq and Afghanistan at that point, so they were coming back with stories of invasion. So this just got real. They're like all you guys are getting deployed. This war is going to last forever. So that got real real fast. The second one was I was at Eglin Air Force Base, where the EOD school is located, and we were in air phase. So everything that can be dropped from the air shot from the air. We're learning how to disarm as well.

Courtney Buck: 24:39

The instructors, who are normally peppy and jovial and joking with dark, twisted senses of humor none of them were joking that day and they had known one of their buddies that got killed and they they came up class by class and said hey, so, so and so, staff sergeant so-and-so was killed. Are you prepared to do this? If you don't want to do it, you can drop on request and we'll send you to another school and some people just stood up from their training field and left and got transferred to other military schools. Not that I'm sick or twisted, but I just love that challenge of doing something so hard in playing chess with the devil. I just thought it was. I wasn't celebrating it, but I was also like this is what I signed up for. I didn't want to sit at a desk, I want to do something crazy.

Courtney Buck: 25:27

And, uh, the third time was I went to Afghanistan and literally the first night we were there me and my team were in three man teams I loaded all of our equipment off the Chinook, pulled it to where we were going to be sleeping that night and as we're walking to the B-Hut, which is this really crappy cardboard and wooden hut that we sleep in, non-insulated I pass a guy he's an infantry guy who were just trigger pullers. So I pass a guy he's an infantry guy who were just trigger pullers. He was laying on his side with his hands over his head like this, throwing up, and he had gotten close to an IED that day. He had. He got real close to getting killed but the overpressure got him and he was throwing up constantly and that got. That made me like turn white, get real pale. I felt myself get cold, like, oh, I could die tomorrow, so that got real.

Marcus Arredondo: 26:18

What, what kind of pressure did you just say?

Courtney Buck: 26:20

Over pressure. So whenever you see a bomb go off on a YouTube video and you see that little shockwave that comes off of it, that's that's compressed air.

Marcus Arredondo: 26:28

So over pressure. So you know, I was actually just I don't know if it was 60 Minutes or somewhere else, but I just saw a report about the brain damage that people can suffer just from that air pressure going through your orifice from your eyes or your nose into your brain primarily, which is part of what induces that nausea as well. I'm assuming right.

Courtney Buck: 26:51

Yeah Well, I don't want to turn off your listeners, but if they just want the reality of the case, if I'm near a bomb that goes off, the human body, the extremities, your arms and legs can take a ton of damage and you can live. But you have lungs here. Those are just open orifices of air. When you get next to a bomb that goes off, those get compressed. And where does that air want to go? Up your esophagus, up into your sinus cavities, into the base of your brain. So think of like a jet of air getting like shoved up through your throat. Some of it comes out your mouth but a lot of it hits your brain. And if it hits you at a sideways you're, you're, you played sports right sideways you're, you're, you played sports right Like if you've ever been hit, your head is moving but your brain is sitting in liquid, basically, and hits the side of your head. So there's a couple of different ways to get concussion you can get.

Marcus Arredondo: 27:45

Yeah, it's horrible. Well, and that's like I mean I think most people think of bombs and they assume the shrapnels uh, certainly worth worthy of consideration, but I don't think people think about the pressure as among the most threatening of the threats. It's absolutely threatening. Can you share any experiences while you were disarming that stand out as I don't know meaningful as a lesson learned, as something that shaped how you perceive reality?

Courtney Buck: 28:17

I mean, I would imagine every one of them does, but yeah, one makes me laugh and it shouldn't, but a lot of bomb technicians have kind of a gallows humor. I think you have to, don't you? Yeah, you really do. I remember it was we called it the KG Pass. It was the Khaos to Gardez Pass, and it's just a road you can look up in eastern Afghanistan and it's really mountainous, unpaved, it's soft dirt, so bombs can be dug in real easy and then cover back up and you have no idea that it's there.

Courtney Buck: 28:48

Well, one was found and myself and my team leader had to go dig it out of the ground Like it didn't explode it was supposed to but it didn't and you have this cord that comes out of it, called detonation cord. It looks like a little tiny rope but it's just filled with explosives and it goes off to the side of this gully. And it had rained the night before, partially dried up, so think of like a bomb and really crappy concrete. It wouldn't easily come out. So we had to take a pick, like a miner's pick, and shovel and dig this thing out of the ground Hoping that it doesn't detonate. Hoping it doesn't detonate In my pick, like a miner's pick, like digging a gold mine. I am having to dig around it like that in the middle of the night with our commander, who was a captain he was like 28 years old with a flashlight like this down at the bomb so I don't hit the detonation cord and make it accidentally go off. That was wild, and so we dug it out of the ground and put it in.

Marcus Arredondo: 29:51

What's fascinating to me about this is you have to have a very unique relationship to death. Yes, Because I don't know if there's anyone who can. You are second to none as it relates to staring death in the face repeatedly. It's almost like you're poking the bear.

Courtney Buck: 30:15

Yeah, but the bear never wakes up, and if he does, you're not going to know it because you'll be dead.

Marcus Arredondo: 30:19

I'm sorry, it's just that way, no no, no, because I think that's a very philosophical way to apply to reality and I guess look my mind's spinning a little bit because I'm trying to figure out. My first thought is that is almost meditative in a way. You can study a lifetime to achieve that level of focus and maybe the closest thing I might come to is being on a cliff, walking where death is immediately in front of you. You're not thinking about the email you need to send out when you're on that cliff, you're not worried about how your cousin is doing, you are just worried about where you're going to put your foot. And that is not and please don't any listener think that I'm comparing the two. That's the closest thing I can relate to what you're going through. How does that apply to how you view everyday life? I sort of wonder the monkey mind, the noise that a lot of us face. You don't, because being in the real world seems insignificant.

Courtney Buck: 31:28

So I'll answer that in two sections. I'll go back to when you mentioned your ability to focus. So I was recently diagnosed actually in the last couple of years with moderate ADHD. My ability to focus and sit down and stay, stay, you know, rational and work on Excel spreadsheets it's really hard. It's very, very hard for me. I'm very extroverted, I love talking to people, but one of the benefits of having ADHD is your ability to hyper focus. Yeah, and thank goodness I had that. But it takes an amazing amount of danger or risk for me to hyper focus.

Courtney Buck: 32:07

So when I played rugby, if I don't hit somebody, right, I'm going to injure myself just as worse than they are. Or if I don't take a hit, good, I'm going to get really beat up. Same thing with disarming a bomb If I can't focus, I'm dead. I'm gone, yeah, and then, moving forward, I'm so far removed from it now I've been out of it for three or four years as far as, like traveling overseas to more dangerous places, I catch myself being pissed off like, oh it's there, look at all the pollen on my car. I'm gonna go to get that wash today and I feel sorry for myself for half a second. Courtney, come on, pull yourself out of it like you have nothing to complain about. But yeah, it's being in those kind of places where things are just dangerous like you had the LA fires close to where you were at Things got real real fast for people and they probably see life in a different light right now. But give them about 10 more years. Some of that will be forgotten.

Marcus Arredondo: 33:09

Do you think that gets embedded in your DNA at all? A little bit, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting you bring up AD add and the ability to focus relative to near death. I I recently, uh, have been re-watching this documentary called the alpinist, uh, which is about this young guy who is a climber, but is a climber in all sorts of conditions, not just in dry conditions but also up without ropes. By the way, he's climbing faces that are extraordinary by every measure. But he struggled with ADD. He in class could never identify with anyone. He was sort of a loose cannon. He hated it. But when he gets on the mountain it's totally different. He finds a peace.

Marcus Arredondo: 33:55

That it's just a fascinating concept to me, because I think so few people can attain that level of. I would imagine there's some serenity in it to fuck up, you're gone. You're sort of not in the moment anymore. So I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just trying to process how you might go through it, because it seems like redirecting the focus from the fear. You have to just be. There is no more present state of mind than accomplishing the mission, for lack of a better word. Accomplishing the mission, for lack of a better word.

Courtney Buck: 34:34

It is super peaceful. It is super peaceful until after the fact, like when you get back to base, like most of us would go work out and lift weights, Cause we're all a bunch of knuckleheads. We lift weights afterwards, just kind of because we're you don't want to go to bed right after that.

Marcus Arredondo: 34:50

You don't want to think about your own mortality.

Courtney Buck: 34:52

You want to go get some. You want to go lift some heavy iron and go eat a big meal. Yeah, and you'll come down from that because that takes a lot out of you and it's also super peaceful in this way. So for the most part, the bombs that were disarming have been found already. Of course we're looking for secondary and tertiary bombs that could be hidden, like they could use that main was as a plant to kill us. You know, make it obvious to find. But it's surrounded by security, uh, our Afghan national army and our own guys and infantry guys. I love infantry guys. They are so wildly intense until it hits the fan and they're just cool and calm and every you just hear crackles of radios and they're all there for you to protect you. So if somebody starts shooting at you from a mountain, all hell is going to break loose. They will take so much pleasure in lighting of that mountainside up to protect you. Yeah, and for some reason that just feels so good.

Marcus Arredondo: 35:50

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a unifying theme there that you I don't think you can find in civilian life.

Courtney Buck: 35:56

I've struggled with that really bad. Like I love the flexibility I have in my life. I love being at home most of the time. But my wife, who also deployed multiple times she was in the Air Force. Some days we just sit around and think how much fun it would be to deploy again, and I shouldn't think like that. I feel ugly even thinking that. Yeah, but it's kind of nice, you miss it.

Marcus Arredondo: 36:19

Yeah, it's crazy to hear you say that. I think a lot of people listening are going to think that's, but the way you describe it to me is completely practical. It's simplified life and it's almost like once you go there, your threshold has been is so reestablished that it'll never come back to a baseline close to what a civilian has without that experience.

Courtney Buck: 36:47

If you haven't watched it yet. Sebastian Younger is an author and he's also a documentarian. He's done a couple from Afghanistan and you'll see why those guys miss it. There's nothing up on that mountain that a normal 18 to 21-year-old wants. There's no women, there's no booze, there's no parties, there's no cool cars. There's nothing except camaraderie, the most ultimate camaraderie, and being able to prove your mettle every day. Unfortunately, it's addictive.

Marcus Arredondo: 37:20

Well, that bond I mean we're seeking bonds. I think you don't take anything to the grave except the bonds you have. Yes, and that may be with people, but it can also be with activities and what you do and who you are. I want to move off from this, but before we do, there's a couple of questions that I want to address. I want to address one is just from a science sort of nerdy take. Are you guys measuring your physiology during that timeframe, Cause I would imagine you need a heart rate that you can't be at 165 beats a minute while you're trying to disarm a bomb. None of that. Is there any? Were there any mental exercises you were doing, or is it just a matter of acclimatizing yourself to those situations?

Courtney Buck: 38:05

No, it was purely at that time. Basically, it seems like you have to be in shape too, right, oh, we were. Every one of us were wildly in shape and not like not like we would go out and do Ironmans, but like we all lifted weights, like we all lifted weights like we just love getting in the gym. Because you had to wear an 80 pound bomb suit where two-thirds of the weights up front, and then possibly carry a monstrous bomb or a person who's injured while wearing that thing yeah so we uh, takes your hit workouts to another level.

Courtney Buck: 38:32

I can imagine, yeah, but yeah, you know you, you, there was nothing at that time that was. I was in from 2004 to 2008 on active duty. It wasn't until 2008 that the US government was like we're seeing these guys come back with head injuries, but they also have all these residual issues with it. So, finally, the science was just starting to catch up to the to the issues, and it takes time.

Courtney Buck: 38:57

What like? What other residual injuries? Oh, like residual symptoms, like, like you know, massive headaches or orientation issues like spatial awareness, short-term memory issues, not so much for long-term. Sure um pituitary glands that were damaged because of the pituitary gland, where it sits in your brain like, could get more easily damaged. Hormone issues, testosterone issues, estrogen management what else? Like some anger issues for people? Sure, but some of those overlap with PTSD, so a lot of people would just chalk it up to PTSD at that point.

Marcus Arredondo: 39:31

But PTSD is sort of like when the doctor tells you you know, this is a result of stress. It's sort of a blanket term that really is not addressing singular issues.

Courtney Buck: 39:41

Yeah, they've gotten a lot better, because I was in and I'm so happy they've gotten better. But I think I could be mistaken. But I think the guys who do my job now wear like the little computers in their helmet that the NFL guys play. They have as well to measure like pressure, overpressure, shock force.

Marcus Arredondo: 40:01

I think I could be wrong on that Well talk to us about your transition back into you know, the real world and what that was like for you. I mean to leave the noise and then also, you know, I can't help but think that you're just like. This is boring as shit.

Courtney Buck: 40:21

It was. So I had to find an exciting town to live in. So I was. I moved to Austin, texas. I was a big music fan, so I go to a place where I go in. I'm a war veteran, I'm just chiseled and cut up and, henri, and with free time and a little bit of money for the first time in my life and I just had a blast for like a year. Like you know, I had a good time?

Marcus Arredondo: 40:45

Do you feel like you were less fearful of taking risks in civilian life because of the experience?

Courtney Buck: 40:52

I don't think so. I don't think so.

Marcus Arredondo: 40:55

What do you think you might like? You've got, you've've got children. How do you talk to them about this experience? You know I it's hard to distill it into. You know three bullet points, but you know what are the most meaningful takeaways from your experience as a, as a veteran, but also, specifically, you know, within the eod technician world yeah, my wife, have talked about this at length.

Courtney Buck: 41:22

We we want our kids. They don't know much about what we did in the military because it's just not a. We don't feel it's appropriate for them yet to know what mommy and daddy did at, uh, you know, five to 11 years old.

Courtney Buck: 41:33

But you know, we, we give them a little taste of what we did, like we went to a place called Iraq, we went to a place called Afghanistan. We, we give them sort of the textbook mission of what we did. But we'll tell them eventually, but at a snail's pace. But the way it influences, I think, how we raise our kids is we want them to try new things and don't let people pigeonhole you into a box, right Like you.

Courtney Buck: 41:56

Go back to my size and stature. All my high school coaches and teachers wanted me to play football. I didn't want to play football. I was a monster of a person at 15 years old. I don't play football. I wanted to go to math club. That's what I wanted to do. So I refuse to be told what the rest of the world expects of me. I just I want to do what interests me and how. I think it will favor me and my family now. And my wife was the same way. She deployed three times while in college. She didn't want the traditional college thing. So with our kids, we want them to try different sports. Try the baking club at school, try the gardening club, you know, whatever it is, don't let. Don't let society and living in the South pigeonhole you into playing football or volleyball or whatever it is. Explore, have fun, try to find good friends, try new things.

Marcus Arredondo: 42:51

Yeah, I'm glad that you say that, because there's like a common push, I think, among parents today. Maybe it's more stressed in LA, but, uh, you know, if you're at seven years old and you want to play basketball, you know you got to play basketball year round, you got to get a, a coach that's, you got to be in in different teams year round. You got to say no to baseball, you got to say no to football, no to soccer, no to tennis and I I just sort of think there's, there's something missing there.

Courtney Buck: 43:21

I think it's unfortunate, I agree, I, I cannot stand that. I cannot stand that. And it exists here in the south, uh, where they try to route you into things and and play like baseball, like year-round baseball. But I love like gabrielle reese I think lives in la like she is six foot three long, lean. Yeah, she didn't play volleyball growing up, like she started at 18. Yeah, you know, you kind of, you kind of have the genetic ability to do it. And I love Wayne Gretzky when he's like the worst thing that happened to ice hockey was year round ice hockey. Yeah, yeah, get out there, play lacrosse, play ice hockey, play whatever, swim and uh, I think it's just a more well-rounded person.

Marcus Arredondo: 44:02

Well, I wanted one other subject that I wanted to be sure we talk about was the CDC, and I think it was a lightning rod Again. I think this was an organization that few people really understood their role until you know. It's been hoisted on us through every media outlet in 2020. But talk to us about your experience there, specifically before and leading into COVID. I mean, I know that you suffered a lot of ridicule personally and then, obviously, you know Fauci's relationship to the CDC has its own lightning rod issues, but I'm hoping that you can give us some of your own personal experience and inform those of us listening what we don't know about the CDC, what we think we know and are getting wrong.

Courtney Buck: 44:50

Yeah, even before I worked at the CDC, I just thought it was the hand-washing people or the, you know, make sure you wear a condom in college people. Yeah, I didn't know. You know, make sure you wear a condom in college, right, I didn't know. And then I go down there on a job interview after the, after USAID, and I went there to work for the Centers for Global Health. So in the division I worked with, go figure was to respond to any outbreak in the world and the government wanted US assistance, so I worked on the diplomatic side of that, which seemed sort of far fetched for US assistance.

Marcus Arredondo: 45:21

So I worked on the diplomatic side of that, which seemed sort of far-fetched for decades, right, I mean, because we had never really been privy to that since 1918, I guess.

Courtney Buck: 45:29

Yeah, since the Spanish flu, like for the United States at least, but like a lot of Africa and Southeast Asia live with endemic things Like I mean, Zika was in Africa long before it hit the Caribbean in the Southern part of the United States. So I worked on initially it was the global health security program so we were trying to work with overseas countries to prevent disease outbreak, identify it if it does happen and then respond. So prevent, detect, respond was our motto. Identify it if it does happen and then respond. So prevent, detect, respond was our motto. So that works great with countries that want to follow that motto. I got there in the midst of Ebola in 2015, and that was in West Africa, and that was a hot mess. People were literally just bleeding out in the middle of the street in those three countries. It was horrible, no-transcript. That works out great, like I said, for other countries that follow it, but it's just like the weakest link is the how do you say it with the chain.

Courtney Buck: 46:56

I know what you're saying yeah, you're only strong as your weakest link. That's right. That's right. So if countries aren't following it and there's cross-border travel, well, it kind of doesn't matter what everybody else is doing yeah so, if you know, it's horrible because you want everybody to be playing well and following the same rules.

Courtney Buck: 47:17

But if one country just isn't at all and they're not implementing the programs or the prevention programs to prevent certain diseases, simple things like even just like washing your hands after going to the bathroom, sure, if everybody did that in the world after going to the bathroom, that would cut out a lot of illness. But if you're not investing in that, that's you're going to have issues. So in December of 2019, we started hearing things that were coming out of Southeast Asia about some kind of upper respiratory issue. Yeah, that happens all the time. That happens all the time. Well, bird flu was a big thing. It was Multiple times, yeah, yeah. And then you had what was it? Mers and Saudi? Sure, like a few years before that that was before my time at the CDC. So, okay, well, the countries that know how will implement their programs and will respond to it. We think it's not going to be a big deal. Most countries didn't think it was going to be a big deal.

Courtney Buck: 48:20

Then we started hearing reports that people were dying from this. This is like January timeframe. February just keeps escalating. More and more people are traveling and if you've ever looked at a map of all the international planes that go back and forth, it's like I could be on a plane now and I could be in Johannesburg, south Africa, in like 20 hours, like literally in any city in the world in 20 hours. Just think about the especially for respiratory issues or respiratory diseases, infectious ones how quickly that would just cross pollinate between travelers and if it's slow to emerge, the symptoms are slow to emerge. You don't even know you're sick or you don't even know you're passing it around. So that's why infectious disease is so interesting and kind of scary at the same time.

Courtney Buck: 49:06

So, yeah, march, fast forward, march of 2020, since a few days after my youngest daughter was born, almost five years ago, the world shut down. It seems like it's been 20 years, but it's only been five years. So planes were parked, international travel just came to nothing. Economics the world halted. Yeah, it was crazy. So, yeah, I was working at the CDC during that time and I thought, just working in that division, like, oh, I just keep going into work, nope, unless I was working at a lab, like the laboratorians were allowed to go in and security and a couple other staffers, but we were like the rest of the world. We became virtual. We were working from home. Everything, all diplomatic calls, came through our house up in Alpharetta. It's wild to think about.

Marcus Arredondo: 49:58

Well, I want to explore that a little bit more. So, first of all, where do you think the US? You know we're a first world country, the richest country by far. We look at the landmass of I just stumbled on this website that compares landmass from of different countries and we're actually not that much smaller than china, even though it looks it, you know, uh, but they have three times the population that we do. Yeah, and there was a lot of backlash on how we handled it. And look, 2020 hindsight's always 2020. Right, so you can always there.

Marcus Arredondo: 50:34

I don't think anyone's saying there weren't mistakes made, but you have to make decisions based on you know, the information you've been provided and you've got a machete going into the wilderness. Anyone's saying there weren't mistakes made, but you have to make decisions based on the information you've been provided and you've got a machete going into the wilderness in pitch black. You don't know the answers. So I guess where I'm going with this is, first of all, we talk about stockpiles. As a first world country, it seems like we could be more prepared in those types of situations, just starting with, you know, ppe. Where do you think the US is? Where do you think our government could have been better prepared, knowing what we went through now For COVID specifically, or another similar respiratory pandemic, I don't know where we're at now.

Courtney Buck: 51:19

I'm sure a lot of things have changed in the past three or four years since we come down and the vaccines have come out, and we've had a chance to literally breathe and think about what's happened, and at least I hope that researchers, scientists, people at the CDC Department of Health and Human Services are looking back saying what could we have done better? And I 100% agree with you. We made decisions based on the data that we had, and that's in everything from business to military operations, and if you get more data later and you change course, humans are really bad at saying well, you screwed up, didn't you? No, we just found out new information. We needed to change course. Yeah, we didn't do it.

Courtney Buck: 52:04

If we would have known this earlier, we would have made a better decision earlier, but we didn't. We made decisions based on what we had, and I feel like the public in general, not just the United States, are really bad at wanting to hang up people in the government. Yeah, for well, you really screwed that up, courtney, yeah, or whoever. Yeah, uh, looking back on it now, you could have done so many things different, you're right, but we didn't have that information, we didn't know xyz do you think, like you were able to see the statistics right live as this was all unfolding?

Marcus Arredondo: 52:37

I'm curious if you know travel's one thing, because obviously I mean halting plane travel obviously is a huge, huge uh variable that gets eliminated if you can shut that down. But yeah, do you think? Let's say you know omaha, nebraska, should be treated differently than manhattan?

Courtney Buck: 52:57

man, that's a good question.

Marcus Arredondo: 52:59

And how do you enforce that Right? I mean, that's the challenge, yeah Well it's, it's hard to enforce it.

Courtney Buck: 53:06

You can't make people, you can't make every American stay in place, and I don't think it's necessary either. Yeah, but there are steps that I hope we have learned to implement and I didn't even think about this. That I hope we have learned to implement and I didn't even think about this. So when France or the Netherlands they respond to an outbreak, they respond as France and the Netherlands. When it came to the United States, we responded as 50 states, four territories in the District of Columbia. We had all the states squabbling. We had the states squabbling with the federal government, the federal government saying, hey, this is in your best interest, and some states giving us the middle finger, saying states rights, we're going to do what we think is appropriate. Well, maybe it's not, but there was states really got upset at the federal government.

Marcus Arredondo: 53:57

I mean, what's your perception of humanity and people? I think, you know, moments of stress tend to show all of us who we really are, and in some cases that's heroism at its greatest, you know. I mean I think of President Bush standing on the rubble after 9-11, you know, really sort of stepping into that role in a spectacular way, yes, but it also can bring out the worst of us and sort of our most demonic lower base cells and I don't know, has that influenced how you view your fellow compatriots, your other civilians, that your other voters like? I don't know how the best ask this question, but I can only imagine the ridicule and the, the, the challenges you faced of, like. I mean, at some point you got to ask, like, is this even worth doing anymore? Oh, those thoughts. But you're doing the right things, right. You have to stand for something.

Courtney Buck: 54:57

So, uh, again two parts to this. Have you ever watched the movie Men in Black? Sure, love that movie. Well, there's a movie in that where Will Smith's like why don't we just tell everybody about the aliens? And he's like a person is intelligent, rational, but people are scared and violent, and that is exactly what happened in 2020. If I could sit down with one person and talk to them about the statistics, what's actually going on, they're going to come to their own rational conclusion, and it's usually a good one. But you know, fauci couldn't do that. You can't get online and say this is why you should be wearing a mask, because 200 million people said screw you and flipped him the bird. Sure. Like, okay, what do you do? You can't force people to wear it, yeah. And then I wanted to go back to.

Courtney Buck: 55:48

You mentioned George W Bush on the rubble. That's a great example of he made decisions based for invading Iraq. He made decisions based on the intelligence and data that he had. It was the wrong one. I still don't think we should have invaded Iraq, yeah, but I also support the fact, and he was brave enough to say this is why we should. Here's the reason why and I saw some of that intelligence post-invasion, I'm like, yeah, this makes sense, that makes sense. That looks like a chemical weapons factory. It wasn't, but I you know, I get it. I'm very forgiving of people now, at 47 years old, who made the best decisions with the data they had. If it ends up being wrong, I'll slap them on the back Like you did your best. Yeah, it didn't work out, but you tried. That's more than most people are willing to do. I'd rather try and fail than sit on the couch.

Marcus Arredondo: 56:41

I agree. I agree, and I did have a congressman on before, and one thing he mentioned about ego which I found pretty interesting, is that you do need to have some vanity in what you're saying, because you have to have a backbone. You actually have to stake your claim, as I believe this is right, Even if that may prove later that I was wrong, but I stand for something Right and it's a lot easier to be in the peanut gallery throwing darts at the players on the field. It's. It's harder to be on the field, you know, pushing the ball forward.

Courtney Buck: 57:16

Yeah, it is hard, you're. You're exactly right, like everybody in the stands has an opinion Totally, but when you're out there tossing the ball around like you missed the catch. Yeah.

Marcus Arredondo: 57:28

Yeah, this was so illuminating. I really am grateful that you graced us with this perspective. You have such a unique take on so many different aspects because of the experience you've had I mean your experience is probably less the number of people. With your experience you'd have a higher likelihood of becoming the MVP of the NFL than actually attaining your experience. I appreciate you bringing that to this audience. I'm curious, as we bring this in for a landing, any closing thoughts or things you think I might've missed?

Courtney Buck: 58:03

No, not right now. Let's go back to COVID for just a second, and this goes to anything Find really reputable sources that are peer reviewed by other experts, that if you question something, whether it's whether the earth is round or not, or whatever you're reading, always double check who wrote it and see if there's other experts in that field who have read it and just at least given their head nod like it's okay. I love peer reviewed articles because it's gone through the gauntlet and the devil's advocate of of review. So when you see something that comes out and I'm trying to think the New England Journal of Medicine, that shit's been reviewed a lot, right, maybe in 20 years some of it might be misdirected, but it's the best we got right now, yeah, but yeah, always look about what you're reading. So I'm very particular about what I read.

Marcus Arredondo: 59:01

That's great advice. Thank you, courtney. You bet it's good to see you Likewise, man. Thanks for listening. For a detailed list of episodes and show notes, visit scalesofsuccesspodcastcom. If you found this conversation engaging, consider signing up for our newsletter, where we go even deeper on a weekly basis, sharing exclusive insights and actionable strategies that can help you in your own journey. We'd also appreciate if you subscribed, rated or shared today's episode. It helps us to attract more illuminating guests, adding to the list of enlightening conversations we've had with New York Times bestsellers, producers, founders, ceos, congressmen and other independent thinkers who are challenging the status quo. You can also follow us for updates, extra content and more insights from our guests. We hope to have you back again next week for another episode of Scales of Success. Scales of Success is an Edge West Capital production.