Scales Of Success Podcast

#41 - Healing What We Can’t See with Ali Amirhooshmand

• Marcus Arredondo

Share episode

Where silence blooms, transformation begins. In this episode, Marcus welcomes Ali Amirhooshmand to explore how one psilocybin study sparked lasting change, from quieting anxious thoughts to shifting national conversations. This is a story of inner peace, policy reform, and what’s possible when science meets advocacy.

Ali Amirhooshmand is a policy strategist and former congressional advisor with deep experience in tech, cannabis, and psychedelic reform. Now advising startups and shaping advocacy from the private sector, he brings both professional insight and personal passion to the future of mental health.

Reach out to Ali Amirhooshmand:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amirhooshmand/

Episode highlights:
(3:12) The study that changed everything
(6:49) What psychedelic therapy really involves
(15:08) Healing before the hurt begins
(18:25) Breaking generational trauma cycles
(21:32) Lessons that last beyond the journey
(36:50) From Congress to consciousness
(43:15) Disruption, pharma, and politics
(55:10) Ali’s work with Dutchie
(58:16) Why the Safe Banking Act matters
(1:00:35) Outro

Connect with Marcus


Scales of Success

Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ScalesofSuccess

—--

Leave a Review

If you enjoyed listening to the podcast, we’d love for you to leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/scales-of-success-podcast/id1773864140


Get in Touch

You can also Tweet @cus with any feedback, ideas or thoughts about the lessons you’ve learnt from the episodes and we can thank you personally for tuning in.


Ali Amirhooshmand

(0:00) So I took it upon myself to work with some other study participants. (0:05) I put together coalitions to go to Capitol Hill and start engaging Democrats and particularly Republicans who traditionally have been hesitant towards pro-drug policy reform to talk about actually the science, the research, the medicine, and talking it within an FDA-regulated model to start raising awareness and destigmatizing what's happening.

Marcus Arredondo

(0:25) Today's guest is Ali Amir-Hushman, a former Capitol Hill policy expert turned lobbyist, advisor, entrepreneur, and investor whose personal healing became his professional mission. (0:35) In 2018, he joined a Johns Hopkins psilocybin trial for healthy individuals and instead discovered how much quiet, anxiety, and self-criticism he'd been carrying, along with what it felt like to finally silence it. (0:45) We talk about breaking generational trauma, why true healing requires intention and integration, and how Ali now works to bring safe, regulated psychedelic therapy into mainstream policy.(0:55) His story is about self-awareness, courage, and turning personal transformation into meaningful advocacy. (1:00) Let's start the show. (1:01) All right, Ali, welcome.(1:03) Thank you for coming on. (1:05) Hey, Marcus. (1:05) Thanks for having me.(1:06) I'm excited to be a part of this conversation. (1:08) I've been courting you for a little while because your background is so unique. (1:12) We have a mutual friend that connected us, but let me back up for a second in terms of bringing you on the show and why I've been so excited.(1:20) There's a lot of motivations for having created this show, but one of them is to get direct experience feedback from people who are on the ground, who have been in the midst of working on critical elements to our civilization, to our government, to our world. (1:42) Too frequently, I think we come to conclusions with very limited information. (1:49) The genesis was really to promote more long-form conversation to really get to the heart of aspects of our humanity that I think are really critical and could potentially serve as more common ground in at least understanding disparate points of view.(2:06) I lay all that groundwork because you are at the intersection of a number of different really interesting areas in our world. (2:16) You've got a background in government, having worked as a policy advisor in Congress. (2:23) You have gone into the private sector as well.(2:26) I want to talk about all of that, but I want to kick this off because you're doing a lot of work. (2:31) Historically, your work has been in very stigmatized industries. (2:36) The work that you're doing now is in psychedelics.(2:39) Before we start getting into all the myriad spokes to the hub within psychedelics, I just wanted to see if you could share with us the study that you first were a part of. (2:55) I'm blanking on the name, but I think it was a clean study for healthy individuals, namely those who have no experience with any prior drug use. (3:05) I'll stop talking, but I'm hoping that you might be able to kick off the conversation with how that came about and what your experience was.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(3:12) Yeah, absolutely. (3:13) Thank you. (3:13) We'd love to share more with the audience.(3:15) In 2018, I was lucky enough to get connected to a Johns Hopkins research recruiter who was recruiting a study for what's called our healthy normals. (3:27) That means you're considered to be medically or psychologically a healthy normal person, not dealing with addiction, with PTSD, with anxiety, or any of those. (3:38) Our study was one single high dose of psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms.(3:45) We were given an fMRI. (3:48) We had imaging of our brain the day before the event, seven days after, and 30 days after. (3:55) The study was to conduct to see what sort of connections the brain forms, how long those connections last, and ultimately, what is the emotional outcome of having the experience.(4:07) For me, I went into the experience thinking I was a healthy normal person when it comes to mental health. (4:13) Coming out of the experience, I realized that really, there is no such thing as a healthy normal when it comes to mental health. (4:22) I guess I've learned since then that everyone is on some sort of spectrum when it comes to depression, anxiety, OCD, etc.(4:30) It's just a matter of how much does it impact you that keeps you from being able to live a healthy normal life or requires you to go seek medical attention. (4:38) For me, I guess all my life, I was below grade needing to have the medical attention. (4:42) It was something that was with me my entire time.(4:46) By that, I mean anxious thoughts, obsessive-compulsive thoughts, just repetitive negative thought patterns that were with me ever since I remember. (4:56) For the first time, they were gone that afternoon when I was done. (4:59) I was sitting on the couch talking to the researchers at Hopkins.(5:03) That huge contrast in my inner monologue, which most of the time was negative. (5:08) The people experience when they look in the mirror, thoughts that you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, you don't deserve to be loved, etc. (5:16) For the first time in my life, those thoughts were completely silent.(5:20) It's that just huge contrast in my inner monologue that made me realize, A, there is no such thing as a healthy normal person because if I was healthy, what does that mean for everyone else? (5:32) Then more importantly, it made me realize truly how effective and how powerful these medicines are. (5:36) All the challenges that we're facing, at least in 2018, when I went through this study, as far as misinformation, stigmatization, the war against drugs, etc.(5:47) In order for this research to be successful, in order for this research to reach critical mass, it needed help and it needed champions within the government relations realm, particularly dealing with Capitol Hill. (5:59) When members of Congress are experiencing a deluge of information, that they rarely had a chance to become aware or educated on actually what was the research happening at these universities such as Hopkins, Yale, etc. (6:13) The fact that it was legal research taking place within an FDA medical pipeline, and they were finding that it was having major significant results in reducing, if not healing, depression, suicide, addiction, etc.

Marcus Arredondo

(6:26) Preceding the study, did you have counseling sessions with somebody? (6:31) Was there any preparatory work that took place? (6:35) Or did you just go straight in?(6:37) Then what involvement? (6:38) Were there clinicians by your side? (6:42) Were there post-event debriefings?(6:46) Tell us a little bit about that process.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(6:48) Sure. (6:49) So it is called psychedelic assisted therapy, meaning that the therapy is the crux or the mechanism by which you are receiving the healing. (6:56) It's the psychedelics then which ultimately put the bow around the present.(7:02) And the way these typically take place within the clinical settings is three, or at least my experience was I had about four sessions of talk therapy beforehand for a total of about four to five hours. (7:14) And my talk therapy was with a Johns Hopkins psychiatrist and a Johns Hopkins social worker who are experts in sitting and holding space for people going through these experiences. (7:26) And then to sit there and make sure you have someone that you feel safe, so you're able to let go and really embrace the experience.(7:33) But someone before, during, and after to help you identify the issues or obstacles you're trying to work with, help you contextualize it, and then learn lessons from it coming out after the fact. (7:44) It is called psychedelic assisted therapy because it is medical, because it does have these outcomes. (7:49) Psychedelics in themselves, if done recreationally, certainly don't have these outcomes.(7:53) Otherwise, no one at a Grateful Dead concert would be dealing with addiction or mental health or psychedelic or any sort of drug abuse issues related to that. (8:02) It's within the medical model, within the context of the set and setting and having intentions going in that has such significant outcomes for healing.

Marcus Arredondo

(8:12) How were the outcomes relative to your intentions going in? (8:15) Did you find that you were well aligned? (8:17) I've encountered some people who went in with not to this degree of assisted therapy, but more regulated environments.(8:26) And they've had intentions, but they've come out with realizations that may not necessarily align with what they had expected in the... (8:36) What would you call it? (8:36) A trip?(8:37) I mean, is that in whatever experience that however you want to label it?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(8:40) I would call it a psychedelic journey. (8:42) I mean, there is an adage in plant medicine and psychedelics that the medicine gives you the experience you need, not necessarily the experience you want. (8:51) And I am of the mind that all of these experiences are positive experiences.(8:55) It's if you're able to contextualize it and learn lessons coming out of it. (8:59) For me going into the session, as I mentioned, I didn't think I was dealing with anxiety. (9:04) I didn't think I had obsessive compulsive thoughts or negative thoughts because they were with me my entire time.(9:10) My context of going into the trial was really to try to experience psychedelics. (9:16) I was working in the tech industry, and there are a lot of influencers who are talking about the benefits of psychedelics. (9:22) Obviously, the podcast of Joe Rogan, hearing folks like Steve Jobs talk about their experience.(9:28) I thought if I'm ever going to do psychedelics, there is no better place to do it than Johns Hopkins in a legal, safe, regulated setting. (9:35) And let's see if I'm able to receive some of the positive outcomes, such as more spirituality or closest to nature, etc. (9:42) The healing I got was on levels I never even thought possible because I never even thought I had issues.(9:47) For me, that negative talk track that was with me my entire time is almost like wearing a backpack filled with sand for the first time that backpack was taken off of me. (9:58) It's having that contrast, that silence that really showed me what is possible, or quote unquote, what is considered to be a healthy, normal person while having that silence. (10:08) And ultimately, that silence really allows you to be present, right?(10:11) You're not being attracted to negative thoughts from the past, depressive thoughts. (10:16) You're not worrying about the future. (10:17) You're not having anxious thoughts about what could happen.(10:20) It's that silence that really allows you to live in the present moment.

Marcus Arredondo

(10:24) So, were these effects immediate? (10:28) When you finished your journey, did you feel it immediately? (10:31) Or was this something that manifested itself over the following days or weeks?(10:37) And if so, how did that come to fruition?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(10:40) Excellent question, right? (10:41) I mean, I would say the effects were obviously immediately with that afternoon. (10:45) My session started at nine in the morning.(10:46) By four in the afternoon, I was sitting on the couch, and I had this unbelievable silence. (10:50) The way I would describe it in my inner monologue is if you're sitting in a little rowboat in an ocean filled with tides and waves. (10:58) For the first time, it felt like I was in a rowboat in a lake with water that was as smooth as glass.(11:05) So, that's the immediate, right? (11:07) Just not having the obsessive thoughts, the ruminations, etc. (11:11) The long-term help, the long-term effects for me were actually going back and being able to revisit the issue, understanding what sort of lessons, what was brought to my attention during the actual psychedelic journey.(11:23) And that's an experience where you do go deep, deep within your subconscious, where you do experience ego dissolution, and you're able to see the negative narrative you've constructed for yourself for your whole life. (11:36) You're able to revisit almost in the third person or an objective sense and able to see that those stories that you've created yourself, that through the daily smudges you experience from life, through traumatic experiences, that those are stories that don't necessarily need to be written the way you tell yourself every day.

Marcus Arredondo

(11:53) So, I have a lot of personal anecdotal comparisons, and they're not the same thing, but a couple. (12:02) And by the way, I'm reading this book called Chatter by Ethan Cross. (12:06) And in it, one of the first chapters, he talks about another, I guess it was another psychologist or researcher who had had a stroke.(12:15) And when she came out of that stroke, she said the exact same thing you did, which was, for the first time in my life, I didn't hear something going on in my head. (12:23) And she had never had that peace. (12:25) She found resolve in doing work that would otherwise be really tiresome or exhausting, and that she found motivation and maybe another level of purpose.(12:39) And I'm just curious, first of all, is that something that you were aware of before going in? (12:44) What was the impetus to getting into the study yourself? (12:47) I mean, was it an invite?(12:48) Did you procure this as an opportunity that you had sought out? (12:52) There seems like you would have had to have had some motivation to do it outside it just simply being available to you.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(13:00) Right, right, right. (13:01) Excellent. (13:02) I'd never done...(13:03) So, psychedelics, psychedelic research had been on my radar screen for two or three years before I did this, going back to what I mentioned, Joe Rogan and other influencers and other podcasts, et cetera. (13:16) So, it had been in my radar screen for a couple of years. (13:18) But I knew that the opportunity to be able to avail myself in a clinical, legal, safe setting was not possible because I was not diagnosed with major depression or addiction issues or et cetera.(13:30) Having said that, I would argue that sometimes the universe finds you. (13:35) Right. (13:36) And through a series of positive coincidences or no coincidences, I was able to get in touch with a recruiter and we started talking.(13:45) And then after several minutes, it was brought to my attention that, hey, we're doing a study that you could actually could qualify for since you haven't been diagnosed with mental illness.

Marcus Arredondo

(13:54) In your experience, I think that there's a misconception I have, at least growing up, where related to your assessment of your own health, right? (14:03) I found nothing's wrong with me, therefore I'm healthy, which in and of itself is not likely to be accurate because you're a subjective candidate looking at your own subjective experience. (14:18) But it's also a little bit more fluid than that, in my opinion, because life changes too.(14:25) So, even minute one, you might be okay. (14:28) Minute seven, you might not be great. (14:31) And I'm using just length of time, whatever that case may be, whether it's weeks or months.(14:37) But then maybe you come back. (14:38) What's your take as it relates to this as a practice? (14:41) Is this something that you see as a benefit, as sort of like there obviously seems to be a substantial benefit to individuals having done it once.(14:52) But is your perspective on this, having been in this world now for seven years, is this something that you think of as a repetitive cleansing type of process? (15:02) I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is there some repetitive aspect to this that would be beneficial to people?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(15:07) Absolutely. (15:08) I'm really glad that you brought this point up, right? (15:11) The vast majority of research taking place right now are folks with diagnosed mental illnesses or maladaptive behaviors, which is a small subset of the population.(15:24) I believe the larger potential for a societal benefit is actually treating people who are healthy or considered to be mentally doing well before they have these traumatic experiences or before life ends up tarnishing them with negative experiences. (15:40) It's those experiences upfront that allows you then to have the resiliency to be able to muster some of these negative life experiences, right? (15:49) If you're able to have the skills, the fortitude, the mental strength to be able to overcome these negative experiences, then those negative experiences ultimately don't end up getting processed and end up becoming a part of your underlying health conditions later in the manifestation of diseases, etc., right?(16:07) The brain, the mind, and the body are all one system. (16:12) As Dr. Gabor Mate says, Western science doesn't really recognize that, doesn't really recognize trauma in any sense. (16:19) That's where, you know, being experiencing dis-ease ends up ultimately manifesting into disease.(16:26) If you're able to process, heal, release all of the dis-ease you're able to experience on the front end, then it doesn't end up manifesting into longer societal or personal harms such as depression, alcoholism, or a whole host of other issues as well. (16:41) That's, I believe, the long-term societal impact and is for the potential of treating healthy well-beings. (16:48) But also, as you mentioned, you know, on year one, you might be healthy.(16:52) On year seven, you might have a negative impact. (16:54) What Western science and Western medicine is just slowly starting to hint at is, you know, you might yourself have a healthy normal childhood. (17:05) What, you know, the Western medical model doesn't account for are the epigenetic trauma that can be passed down to you from generations, from your parents, etc., right?(17:15) And while these medicines might help address illness on the back end, if you're able to address some of these issues that are epigenetically passed, societally passed for well-being individuals, then you're really able to, you know, help on the back end of things when it comes to mental health and well-being.

Marcus Arredondo

(17:34) Well, I'm appreciative that you're bringing up sort of the lineage aspect, the epigenetic component, because on two fronts, I'm thinking both sort of backwards and forwards. (17:42) Backwards being, you know, those conditions, those preconceptions, those traumatic events influence our predecessors, our parents, our grandparents, not just in behavior, right? (17:55) Because that's how they perceive the world.(17:56) I would have to imagine that, to a large degree, it actually impairs some component of your DNA at that time that gets embedded and passed along. (18:09) And carrying this thought forward, which I know you've alluded to, and I want to give you some space to run with as well, is, you know, the potential benefits that you see having done this for even your own children and to see the positive effects that it's had on you. (18:24) How do you view that in the context of, one, disconnecting past trauma, you know, not passing past trauma downward or stopping that momentum, and two, creating sort of a clean slate and the, you know, potential healthier habits for your own child to move forward through the world in a different light?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(18:50) Excellent question. (18:51) You know, that ultimately is the billion-dollar question for society, for healthcare, and for medicine. (18:57) I can talk about my, at least my personal experiences tying to what you're talking about, right?(19:02) If you're able to heal yourself and you're able to take care of the negative emotional or psychological or behavioral patterns you have, then those patterns ultimately don't end up getting passed along to your lineage or to your offsprings or kids, right? (19:18) If at age 18, you're able to address your anxiety or depression that ends up causing you alcoholism and you end up not becoming an alcohol, then when you have a child, those negative patterns that are all associated with that addiction and that alcoholism ultimately don't appear and get reinforced and passed out to successive generations.

Marcus Arredondo

(19:39) This is fascinating to me. (19:40) So let me just ask one question that I would imagine that some listeners might be thinking, which is that, you know, let's say you have these blockages, these traumatic events that surface, and let's say you're cleaning them out, right? (19:51) So, you know, one big intention that you have prior to going through one of these journeys might be to come to terms, find some peace with some traumatic event, which coming out of it you do by way of, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but from my own deduction, it's some different perspective on something that happened.(20:13) The allowance of maybe some neural pathways to develop that are new, that allow you to interpret a past event from a different perspective, thus lowering the volume of that event on your own future actions, right? (20:29) And so I'll land the plane here on this question, which is, are there tactical, maybe the process by which you go through that and having gone through that to evaluate that one traumatic event from multiple perspectives, is that a skillset that you can actually walk away from and repeat without the use of the psychedelic into the future? (20:52) So let's say, for example, (20:53) there are other traumatic events, (20:55) other emotional baggage, for lack of a better word, (20:59) that cause issues in how you behave, (21:03) that you can start to find a way (21:05) to have a relationship with that (21:07) that is more productive than what it was prior, (21:10) or in contrast, is this something that you think, (21:12) I think a lot of people might hear this and say, (21:14) well, this is the medicine, (21:16) the only way to fix these traumatic events (21:18) are by taking this medicine, (21:19) but it seems like there are compounding benefits, (21:23) not just from the use of it, (21:24) but also from what you take away from that experience (21:27) and how you then can apply it (21:29) as sort of a new tool in your toolbox.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(21:32) Exactly, right? (21:33) It is contextual, right? (21:34) For the same reason that you don't have lower rates of depression and mental illness at Fish or Grateful Dead shows, as I mentioned, right?(21:41) It's within the context of doing the medicine and the true healing doesn't take place during the psychedelic session, the true healing takes place afterwards. (21:51) It's learning the lessons, being able to revisit the narrative you've created for yourself, but really it's in the post-integration, it's what are the lifestyle changes or the lessons you've taken from the experience that you're willing to institute to break those negative patterns? (22:08) And it's also important to note psychedelics are not the only modality to have these kinds of breakthroughs, right?(22:14) What psychedelics allow you to do is just hit pause and see what is possible and to give you something to work through, right? (22:23) Long-term meditation, holotropic breath or yoga are all modalities that end up helping you as well. (22:30) Psychedelics happens to be one that's front and foremost for center right now and in the headlines are doing research, but it's not the only way to do it and it might not be the treatment for every person out there.(22:44) There are some contraindications and some people who might not be good for it.

Marcus Arredondo

(22:47) What would you caution people who, I think some people may listen to this and feel like there's a green light to just start trying these things. (22:55) That's not without its dangers, without its potential negative consequences for particular people or in particular environments. (23:07) I'm wondering if you might shed some light what you might know about those types of events or maybe what advice you might give to someone who's considering this approach.(23:22) It sounds on its face very positive, but there are conditions that I think are worth mentioning.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(23:29) Yeah, the unfortunate reality is right now, with the exception of what's happening in Oregon and in Colorado, at least at the state level, certainly not at the federal level, there is no opportunity for someone to have a safe medically supervised experience. (23:47) That's regulated that there's a certification process that you know actually the level of care and training you're getting and having that experience, unless you're able to go to those two states right now and have it at the state level. (23:59) But again, this is within the medical model and you do need to have medical professionals there before, during and after to help guide the experience.(24:09) But afterwards, some of the harms could be physical during the experience that if you're not in a safe setting and you're not able to have someone take care of you, you could have some harms take place. (24:20) But also after the experience, it could be very psychologically destabilizing if you do not have the proper care, the proper elements or container to be able to address those issues. (24:33) It could lead to some psychological breakdowns, particularly some of the contraindications.(24:39) And these studies are with family history of schizophrenia, bipolar, et cetera. (24:45) So it is something that's to be approached with caution, with education and awareness.

Marcus Arredondo

(24:53) Well, I think this is a good segue into sort of what we don't know about getting this in front of the legislators and creating pathways for this to be actually beneficial to people, democratizing it in some way. (25:06) But before we get into that, I wanna just ask one last question relative to your own experience, which is in what ways over the last several years, I don't know how many times you've done it. (25:16) I'm curious how many times you've done it since the original 2018 study, but in what ways have you seen noticeably your life change?(25:27) And I'll preface it by saying, I've been a meditator for many years. (25:31) I ebb and flow in terms of my consistency, but like the greatest things in life for me are seldom that my life gets horrendously better. (25:42) To me, it's just that the negative aspects of life start to get removed.(25:48) And it's the grooves start to become more oiled. (25:52) There's a little bit more, I'm not as angry. (25:56) And by virtue of that, there are compounding benefits where I start to develop better habits, better practices, my health, so on and so forth.(26:04) And sort of that dovetails. (26:06) But I'm curious if that resonates with you as well. (26:08) Like, is this something, I mean, I think a lot of people might think once this happens, you wake up the next day and it's sunshine and rainbows.(26:16) And I'm just curious, is that what your experience has been? (26:20) I'll let you run with it. (26:21) I just wanna give you some context on sort of where I'm coming from the question.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(26:24) Sure, well, I can tell you what the study found. (26:27) So the study I participated in seven days later found that the amygdala was significantly more quiet than before the psychedelic experience. (26:38) And it allowed for more emotional connectedness and more social connectedness as well based on some of the exercises we were doing in the fMRI machine.(26:48) But they also found that these persistence changes lasted at least 30 days within the context of how long the study was taking place. (26:55) For me, I found that I had long lasting results probably within 60 or 70% of what I did in 2018 still continue to persist today. (27:08) That is certainly with the ruminations, with the anxious, obsessive compulsive thoughts, those have significantly changed.(27:14) But what I've also been able to do since then is be able to gain the skills to be able to see some of these, when some of these negative patterns start appearing, I've been able to identify it, to label it, to be able to address it, release it, and not hold on to it. (27:32) And ultimately, it comes down to exactly what you're talking about, right? (27:35) Meditation, being present, not having judgments, right?(27:39) You know, the Buddhists believe that suffering comes from judgment. (27:42) And then also not being reactive, right? (27:45) If you're able to remain calm, not have negative reactions with interactions, people will not have judgment, then the vast majority of human suffering ends up being reduced.

Marcus Arredondo

(27:57) It would seem like your production quality and quantity would skyrocket after this. (28:01) Am I wrong? (28:01) I mean, without the voices in your head telling you you can't do this or that, it just seems like, you know what it reminds me of, to be honest, what I'm thinking of is, you know, my son's just under three and I'm realizing there's this beautiful moment in time with him where he's just existing, right?(28:18) There's no, if he falls, he gets back up, he's not worried about somebody laughing at him. (28:23) If the pain subsides, it's no longer, you know, relatively, it's not something that's in his consideration. (28:30) And, you know, at a certain point, world gets to you.(28:33) And I think Carl Jung talked about this with the shadow self, where the world starts to inform you that certain types of behaviors shouldn't exist, whether it's, you know, wanting to color your nails pink or because you are a left-handed person, you know, like whatever the case may be, there's some element of the world saying, hey, you shouldn't do this. (28:55) And as a result, I think this is my own theory, but it seems like that's where those voices start to develop because if you don't create a relationship with this aspect that you no longer feel comfortable sharing with the world, that part of yourself doesn't go away. (29:11) And if you don't tend to it, it actually can become quite a big monster that is tough to contain.(29:20) And what I'm hearing from this experience and watching my son as well, it's giving me this sort of perspective on who I was when I was younger. (29:31) And I had these ideas and these dreams and these thoughts and how much joy there was and the lack of fear, some justified, some unjustified lack of fear, but that freedom to be loose and to have play as part of this in your psyche, and I see it among all my friends too in their 30s and 40s, like there's just a heaviness that starts to grow from I think these past experiences. (29:56) So I know I'm throwing a lot at you and we can get off of this, but I'm just curious if you have thoughts about this because like the removal of chatter to me seems to be such a youthful pursuit, something that ties you back in many ways to really like, you know, I don't want to get too philosophical here, but like who you are, right?(30:16) Like what drives you? (30:17) What interests you? (30:19) You can start to listen to that voice other than the voices that are in the bus that if you're not very careful, that monkey mind, you start to allow other monkeys to drive the bus that aren't you.(30:34) And so it's about prioritizing, but some of those voices might be valuable. (30:37) Maybe you put them in the back of the bus. (30:38) Some need to get kicked out, but you're a critic who's helpful on occasion to say like, hey, maybe you shouldn't be doing that.(30:45) Probably shouldn't be your co-pilot. (30:48) Maybe it's, you know, in the back of the bus, but when you're in it, it's, you can't really, it's all one thing and it all sounds like you. (30:56) And I'm wondering if that, did you feel any of that?(31:00) From the outside looking in, this is what I'm seeing that it seems like would happen.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(31:06) Sure. (31:06) I mean, I think what you're talking about is ultimately the human condition, right? (31:10) For me, what led me down this entire path of self-healing, it was right after my son was born and I was starting to see negative patterns for my childhood appear in my marriage, right?(31:22) You know, they say you end up marrying your mother. (31:25) I was seeing some of those negative patterns appear. (31:28) And I also wanted to make sure that those patterns did not get passed on or reinforced with my child.(31:34) And it was during the self-introspection of looking at things that I had the realization of, how would my life be different? (31:41) Instead of having a negative devil on my shoulder telling me how awful I am, what if that person, what if that voice on my shoulder was a very positive voice, right? (31:52) That I would say, get up, you can do this.(31:54) Today's another great day. (31:55) You got this, don't give up. (31:56) And it made me realize, it made me wanna deconstruct why I had that negative voice inside my head and then try to rebuild it in a positive voice that having encouragement, all the positives.(32:07) And that's what ended up leading me ultimately to doing talk therapy, which was nice, but it wasn't ultimately as effective as psychedelics. (32:16) But it was within the context of realizing the inner monologue. (32:21) And I think at the end of the day, right?(32:23) How our children's lives would be so much happier if we were able to just teach them two things. (32:29) That one, you're not your thoughts, right? (32:32) That don't hold on to your thoughts.(32:34) And then two, to get your personal identity and sense of worth from internal foci and not external foci, right? (32:41) As you mentioned, all of our friends in their thirties and forties, you see how miserable they are. (32:47) It's all about keeping up with the Joneses, having the nicest car, the nicest watch, et cetera.(32:52) And teaching your kid that, this is at least my personal point of reference, right? (32:55) That happiness does not come from external validation or external materialism or property, right? (33:01) Happiness comes from internal peace and being able to look inside and reconciling the voice you hear within yourself.

Marcus Arredondo

(33:09) And I think that requires to some degree getting in touch with that voice, but you can never do that if there's just voices.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(33:15) Man, if my present day self came and even talked to myself in my thirties, I'd say, you're crazy, get out of here. (33:20) What are you talking about? (33:22) Right.(33:22) It's unfortunately, right? (33:23) What is it like wisdom is, or knowledge is wasted on the old or something like that. (33:29) Yeah, yeah.

Marcus Arredondo

(33:30) All right, well, so I really appreciate that. (33:33) And I don't wanna discontinue this aspect of the conversation because I think it's really meaningful. (33:37) So I'm gonna ask if you can continue to interweave it through some of the other accomplishments you've had and sort of what you're doing as well.(33:44) So I do wanna take this moment to pivot. (33:46) You mentioned the Joe Rogans, the Tim Ferriss's of the world, Michael Pollan is who I'm thinking about, Gabor Mate, right? (33:55) Many of those, it's sort of in the same, listening sphere that I have come across these people.(34:02) And I think they have been among the leaders, but also have been parallel with, I think a push by people to be self advocates, to become more informed about their own decision-making, to take matters into their own hand. (34:21) I think information has become democratized, obviously from the internet age, but then when it's being internalized and through podcasts and the like, where we can have access to experts, subject matter experts, and you can start to distill this information outside of just a mundane book where you can have real life stories. (34:38) There's sort of case studies that resonate.(34:41) I think it's sort of a unique moment in time that we have here, where that sort of self advocacy is pushing the envelope to some degree, but that comes with some level of danger, but also it is somewhat slowed down by the lack of support from the government. (34:57) You can't continue to do these projects without the government sort of reducing the illegality of these aspects. (35:06) And I feel like this is like a ripple effect or a domino effect from the 80s, where the DARE campaign was all drugs are bad, which I think was a little bit fear-based.(35:19) Now that we have more data, it seems like there's more inertia, there's more backing to actually get some of these initiatives in front of, at the very least, of the people making these material decisions. (35:32) I spoke to you offline about Jesse Gould and some of the stuff that he's doing and his encounter with the government. (35:39) I'm hoping that you might be able to shed some light because I know it's not just psychedelics.(35:42) It's been in the cannabis industry that you've done some work in. (35:46) And I don't want the audience to think that this is just, you're just a drug advocator. (35:53) You have a long history of policy advising and lobbying.(35:57) And for the lay person who has no insight (36:01) into the inner workings of government (36:04) and how those two parts of the world intersect, (36:07) that being the lobbying world (36:10) and the policy side (36:13) and the policy advisory side, (36:15) I'm wondering if you might shed some light (36:17) on what your background is (36:19) relative to the policy advising (36:21) and then what the progress has been (36:25) for you in becoming more on the profit sector, (36:30) also the work that you've done (36:32) on the nonprofit sector. (36:33) So it's a broad question, but I wanna maybe start out with, what do you think is maybe the biggest misconception from layman civilians about how policy is actually made?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(36:50) Ooh, that's a simple question with a complicated answer, right? (36:55) I think so to tie back again to my origin story of this conversation, right? (37:00) When I went through the Hopkins experience coming out of it, so I guess real quick, my background, I spent 10 years working on Capitol Hill on the House and Senate as a policy advisor, working on tech and telecommunications issues, so very highly regulated industries.(37:17) After 10 years, I ended up going to the private sector and I did a multi-client corporate and trade association lobbying. (37:24) In tech, but some of the highly regulated and often stigmatized areas of tech. (37:30) And at the time it was video games and then ultimately dealing with privacy and virtual reality, et cetera.(37:37) And it was within about the 15 or 20 years of work in these highly regulated, disruptive industries that I've learned and I saw how money moves and how disruption takes place or how disruption is killed. (37:51) And that ultimately comes down to government relations lobbying and the tools that special interests have at their disposal. (38:00) And coming out of the Hopkins experience in 2018, I realized that the university researchers really had no champions or evangelists on Capitol Hill to one, deal with the misinformation, to raise awareness of the research and then to start stigmatizing actually the history of psychedelics, right?(38:20) When lobbyists from Hopkins or these universities are going to Capitol Hill to talk to senators or their staff, they're not talking about psychedelic research. (38:29) So that meant there really was no sector or special interests going to Capitol Hill. (38:35) This is back in 2018.(38:37) It's fortunately, it's changed significantly but there really weren't too many people going to Capitol Hill and talking about the research and evangelizing what was happening at these universities. (38:48) And I took it upon myself as a former congressional staffer, as a lobbyist and as someone with relationships and expertise in these areas to start raising awareness and coming out of the closet and talking firsthand about what these medicines are capable of doing. (39:04) Having said that, realizing how disruptive they are, that some of the incumbent industries were not going to stand by and lose billions of dollars by some of these disruptions.(39:15) So I took it upon myself to work with some other study participants. (39:20) I put together coalitions to go to Capitol Hill and start engaging Democrats and particularly Republicans who traditionally have been hesitant towards pro-drug policy reform to talk about actually the science, the research, the medicine and talking it within an FDA regulated model to start raising awareness and de-stigmatizing what's happening.

Marcus Arredondo

(39:41) It seems like there's a growing support that is bipartisan within our current legislation, or at least legislators. (39:50) It seems slow moving, but I knew the head of Health and Human Services in the last administration was supportive of it. (39:58) And it appears that this administration's also at least open to the benefits.(40:06) And I think it's, there's a handful of prominent Republican, former military congressmen that seem to have stood up and profess the benefits on vets and PTSD victims. (40:22) Do you see that momentum picking up?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(40:26) It's huge, right? (40:27) For the first time, you have members of Congress who are actually talking about personal experiences and how it's benefited them and the healing. (40:33) And particularly, I think two things really ended up changing the conversation.(40:37) One was COVID and that just huge impact it had. (40:41) Well, a couple of things. (40:42) One was COVID.(40:44) Two, obviously, unfortunately, the opiate fentanyl addiction. (40:47) And then three, the veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan and the conditions they had to undergo mental health, addiction, suicide, et cetera. (40:59) So it really was a perfect storm of events to show that our current models don't work.(41:05) And we have to try some non-traditional modalities of treatments out there because just the mental health epidemic was just unsustainable. (41:14) And seeing that universities have been doing scientific clinical research, FDA-backed research since the late 90s, it really does speak for itself. (41:24) And unlike cannabis, which is a whole another conversation for another time, psychedelics have gone the medical route and within the FDA model, which is far more palatable towards to Republicans.(41:37) And particularly when you're bringing in veterans and first-line responders, it does make this a bipartisan issue. (41:45) So the needle is significantly farther along as far as Capitol Hill when it comes to psychedelic policy and psychedelic reform than it is cannabis.

Marcus Arredondo

(41:53) So I'm wondering, it's weird, my brain is going in a slightly different direction here, but it's coming back. (42:00) But the thought that I'm having is you were around pre and post Citizen United, right? (42:06) Yes.(42:07) And so I'm wondering what your take is, which, and I'm gonna butcher the consequences of this, but for the benefit of the audience, Citizens United basically allowed corporations to function as individuals, which opened the floodgates for money. (42:22) And where I'm going with this is I'm wondering, one, just from somebody on the inside, how do you think that's impacted our ability to legislate for the general best interest? (42:35) I'll concede that there are prerequisites to what you think is for the best well-being of its citizens, but how do you think that has changed how we approach serving the constituents, legislators that are serving the constituents, one?(42:56) And two, to dovetail back into this conversation, are you witnessing, I would imagine there's challenges relative to the big pharma industry as it relates to supporting these efforts, but maybe I'm wrong. (43:13) I don't know.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(43:14) Sure, sure. (43:15) Well, I guess Citizens United, ultimately, it's what allowed the floodgate to open for super PACs, corporations, millionaires and billionaires to end up funding these campaigns. (43:27) And it really did take away the voice, I think, of the average citizen or the common person to have influence in what's happening in politics.(43:36) I think it's unfortunately, they've been a negative consequence to our country. (43:42) And then as far as pharma, right, I think in order for these medicines to be scalable and to be readily available, you do need to have a pharma model for distribution in there, right? (43:58) The way these medicines become legal is within the medical model.(44:03) And ultimately the last model, that medical model is the pharmaceutical industry.

Marcus Arredondo

(44:09) Okay, so that's interesting. (44:10) So my thought would have been that they, because this seems to be more of a, and look, I'll take it back to the conversation I had with Jesse Gould, which was, you know, let's just take antidepressant medications as an example where it effectively becomes a lifelong sentence. (44:26) And I'm simplifying it for sure.(44:30) But that was sort of a maintenance approach in distinction to the more psychedelic approach, which seems more solution oriented, where, you know, that may not be a lifelong sentence. (44:43) Do you see any, you know, lack of alignment there that cause issues in pushing more support for this legislation?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(44:51) No, I agree with what you said, that, you know, this psychedelics have the promise of it not being a treatment or more of a cure or a heal, or at least, you know, long-term maintenance, not like a daily pill you need to take every day. (45:08) Obviously that will disrupt the market. (45:10) There'll be movers and shakers and winners and losers and who controls that.(45:16) That's just one model taking place there. (45:18) That's not including, you know, what's happening in the indigenous community, what's been happening in the jungle for thousands of years. (45:24) That's another conversation as well.

Marcus Arredondo

(45:27) What was your line of thinking moving from off of Congress to get out of working inside Capitol Hill to just on it?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(45:36) Well, a good question. (45:37) I'd spent 10 years working. (45:38) You know, I spent about five years in the Senate and five years on the House side in leadership.(45:45) And I feel I had a really good understanding of how Capitol Hill was working and unfortunately how it was not working. (45:51) And having those 10 years, getting the experience and the network and the skillset allowed me to realize that I could be very effective in changing policies or advocating for clients or industries that I cared about. (46:04) Having been on the inside and understanding the inner workings, I wanted to use those skills and experiences to come out and work on issues that I cared about.

Marcus Arredondo

(46:11) So what was your like main role? (46:14) You know, can you maybe describe an average day as it relates to your last congressional role? (46:20) Because I don't think people really fully process all the inner workings because I'm envisioning you being on staff, having meetings with other congressional staff members to find cooperative language, areas of common ground to create coalitions in the drafting of this legislation in such a way that, you know, those things I would imagine get redlined to death.(46:49) And your main purpose is to get it life and get it on the floor and enacted. (46:56) But that requires consensus building.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(47:00) Correct, exactly. (47:01) And it also, you know, has different requirements depending on which chamber you're in, whether you're in the Senate or in the House. (47:08) My last job on Capitol Hill was working for the House Republican Majority Whip.(47:13) It's a leadership office. (47:15) If you've ever seen House of Cards, that's what the office of the position is based on. (47:20) But ultimately it's the whip's responsibility to make sure that whatever legislation is brought to the floor of the House by the party in charge, and we were the majority party, was to make sure that it had enough votes to pass.(47:32) So as you mentioned, you have to do everything behind the scenes, the coalition building, the vote counting, the corralling, the compromising, the consensus building, both from the inside and the outside. (47:43) And by the inside, I mean from your delegation, from your party, from your committees, et cetera, but also from the outside with industry, with stakeholders, with grassroots, to all work together to effectuate such change. (47:58) And then the areas I focused on, again, were tech and telecom policies.

Marcus Arredondo

(48:01) It would seem like you have to know a lot of these legislators personally to some degree to understand what their nuanced opinions on certain subjects are, because I'm trying to put myself in that role to better understand how it works. (48:16) But my thought would be, okay, as we're writing this, we're gonna need so many number of votes. (48:22) I know how these people would generally fall into this category.(48:25) So we've got those sort of captured, they'll be supportive of it. (48:29) There's another group that, we might have to sacrifice some partial language here or there, but we could probably garner enough of their buy-in. (48:39) Maybe we contribute some other language that behooves their constituents a little bit more.(48:44) And then there's this other group that we may not be able to reach, but we need maybe a handful of those in order to get this across the finish line. (48:53) And in that way, it seems like it is highly scientific, it's highly strategic, but it's gotta be like herding cats and a lot of brain damage to try and get through that. (49:02) I mean, I can't imagine, there had to have been countless attempts that just fell on the floor because you just couldn't get it to where it needed to be.(49:12) Maybe I'm wrong. (49:13) Am I envisioning this correctly? (49:15) I'm curious what that role is.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(49:17) You hit the nail on the head. (49:19) And the reason why it's called a majority whip, it's a term from British fox hunting in which it's the responsibility of the whip to make sure all the dogs are going after the same prey. (49:31) And so that's where it's like herding cats comes in.(49:34) But absolutely right. (49:35) And what you mentioned is on a good day when Congress is functional, all bets are off now with the dysfunction and just the slow morass of how Congress is working right now. (49:47) And politics has significantly changed since the time I was on Capitol Hill.

Marcus Arredondo

(49:51) Well, and how? (49:52) I mean, you just left a great nugget out there. (49:54) In what ways are you seeing it different?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(49:57) Well, I think you could see, particularly with our current president, how the political parties have changed.

Marcus Arredondo

(50:01) Sure.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(50:02) And you're just working towards your base and it's making sure that turnout is more of our voters get out than their voters get out.

Marcus Arredondo

(50:11) Well, and we're in a clickbait world where something salacious is going to spread a lot more quickly than anything else. (50:19) And in a lot of ways, I feel like our legislators should be, to some degree, our modern day philosophers and effectively the parents in the room. (50:28) But it seems increasingly like they are playing into this.(50:33) And I know there's a lot of stuff that they say in front of the cameras and that's very different behind closed doors. (50:41) There is more affability. (50:43) There's more camaraderie than at least it seems.(50:47) Have you, what do you think, how do we change that? (50:51) How do you, having been on the inside, now being on the outside, do you think that there's any way, even from a constituent perspective, as voters coalesce, is there a way to bring more collaboration between the parties? (51:07) Because I'm thinking back into the 80s and 90s while I was much younger and not really, my understanding of politics in the 80s is more through historical context than actually living it.(51:18) But in the 90s, there was a lot of vitriol and the like, but it wasn't anything like what I think would be considered the norm or the baseline level now, which is just increasingly divisive. (51:30) I mean, I go back to a John McCain that stood up in a debate against Obama about civility. (51:37) And we go back to, even as recent as Mitt Romney having discussions, debates and George W.(51:46) Bush, where there was just a lot more respect paid to other servants of the people. (51:54) Where do you think that got lost? (51:56) How do you think we find it again?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(51:58) Ooh, that's a, again, a tough question. (52:02) One, I go back and preface what you said that there's a saying that, Americans deserve the politicians they get. (52:08) And ultimately, it's that civic responsibility that will change things.(52:13) But unfortunately, that's not being taught in schools anymore. (52:17) So that's one. (52:19) Then two, for me, and talking about civility and leadership and et cetera, an unfortunate eye-opening experience for me was when at age three or four, I was holding my son to a much higher standard of behavior and ethics than you see currently coming from our leaders in both parties.(52:38) And that's where it's the lack of civility that I don't know what parent would let their four or five-year-old act as the way some of these politicians are doing with name-calling, with not sharing, with lying, et cetera. (52:50) These are certainly behaviors that are not put up in daycare for four or five years. (52:56) So that's the unfortunate thing again.(52:58) But the incentives right now for the leadership we need to get us through the storm are not there for people to put up with everything and to become part of elected office. (53:10) And you saw that wave of moderates transitioning out of Capitol Hill on both sides over the course of the last 10 or 20 years. (53:18) And it's that lack of institutional history camaraderie that allows for these breakdowns to happen in civility and ultimately making Congress work the way it's supposed to work.

Marcus Arredondo

(53:29) Yeah, I appreciate that. (53:31) I mean, it's helpful to get inside information on things that somebody like myself is not privy to. (53:39) We're not inside of it.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(53:40) And it does come down to ultimately, I was gonna say, gerrymandering and redistricting, right? (53:45) Where the primaries, both sides have to go towards extremes. (53:50) And there really is no more moderate voice in these districts to balance out some of these policy positions.(53:58) What is it like somewhere between 93 or 97% of incumbents get reelected now and how does that play out in Congress?

Marcus Arredondo

(54:05) I know we're coming up on time here. (54:07) So I wanna give you a little bit of a moment here to talk a little bit about Dutchie if you think it's relevant to talk about what work you're doing now. (54:17) And I'll just sort of preloaded with, I am trying to take what you were suggesting, what you described as your function within Congress and how you're applying it from the outside.(54:30) And I'll just ask this one question and hopefully you can weave it in. (54:34) But is your role in pushing this from a lobbying perspective, some of these initiatives from, is that calling your network? (54:45) Is it cold calling different staffers and trying to create relationships?(54:49) Are these initiatives pursued through cocktails and lunches? (54:54) Are they formal meetings? (54:56) Or is it, you know this person, can you make an introduction?(55:00) Give me a little bit of the, where the rubber meets the road and actually how some of these initiatives actually get onto the floor.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(55:08) Yeah, it's a combination and a formulation of all the things you mentioned, right? (55:13) For proper government relations and advocacy, you do need to have the role of the network to be able to get your policy returned and your meetings taken. (55:22) You need to actually understand the policy to understand what the changes mean and what they don't mean.(55:27) And then you also have to have expertise and procedure to make the policy and legislation ultimately across the finish line. (55:35) The work I'm doing for Dutchie now is helping state licensed, regulated cannabis companies and dispensaries flourish and ultimately get rid of or move the football at the federal level to reduce all of the regulatory and cumbersome rules in place that give the state licensed, legal cannabis industry a disadvantage competing with the illicit market, et cetera. (56:06) The work Dutchie does is as a financial tech software platform.(56:10) We are a non-plan touching company, but we do create all the SaaS, the e-commerce website, payment support for the state legal industry. (56:21) And we service around 7,000 dispensaries nationwide. (56:24) And so the work I'm doing is basically making sure our customers are the dispensaries.(56:31) So legislation, policy changes that help the industry flourish ultimately helps our customers flourish. (56:37) And so that's my task in Capitol Hill and at the state levels.

Marcus Arredondo

(56:42) Well, one of the biggest points of friction on that is the financing component, right? (56:46) I mean, I know that you've done some work for the Safe Banking Act, right? (56:51) Yep.(56:51) Can you share a little bit more about what that is?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(56:53) Yeah, sure. (56:54) So there's a schism right now between the state and the federal government. (56:59) As far as the federal government is concerned, cannabis is a Schedule I drug.(57:03) That means it has no medical or scientific value, and it's just as dangerous as heroin and fentanyl. (57:10) And I think 20 or 30 years of history showed that's not the case. (57:16) So since it's federally illegal, it's still considered a Schedule I drug.(57:19) Nationally chartered banks and financial institutions and credit card companies are reluctant. (57:24) To service or bank the legal industry because at the federal level, it's still considered an illegal drug and they're ultimately helping launder the money or et cetera, illegally move that money. (57:37) There's been an effort in Congress for unfortunately way too many years that it hasn't happened in the case, but to pass legislation allowing a safe harbor for federally chartered institutions to be able to bank the cannabis industry in states where it is legally legal by the state.(57:56) Ultimately what that will do is two things. (57:59) Right now, the vast majority of dispensaries are operating in cash because they're not allowed to take credit cards or they're not allowed to take mortgages out. (58:07) So it makes it very, very dangerous.(58:09) It also makes it harder to have transparency and following the flow of where that money is going, right? (58:16) If we're able to make a transparent shed light on it and allow it to enter the financial system, we're able to then track it and fight the illicit market. (58:25) And so that's something the industry has been working for the last several years and hopefully this will be the year it gets done.(58:32) President Trump actually in October, as a candidate came out in favor of safe banking, came out in favor of rescheduling cannabis, meaning moving it from schedule one to schedule three. (58:44) And he ultimately came out in favor of Florida's failed ballot initiative, legalizing adult use cannabis. (58:51) Currently, I think there are around 40 states that allow one form or another of cannabis and around 24 states that allow for adult use cannabis.(59:00) So the tide is changing slowly, albeit.

Marcus Arredondo

(59:04) Yeah, it's odd that the country sort of created a schizophrenic state situation where I had a DEA officer who was a guest on the show and he was talking about how somebody in California, an LAPD officer couldn't arrest somebody for weed, but as a DEA officer, he could because he was a federal agent and it was still illegal federally, but considered less illegal.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(59:26) Right, it's even crazy in DC, depending on which side of the street you're on, right? (59:31) Yeah. (59:31) You could be in the district where it's legal or if you're on the National Mall, it's federally illegal.(59:36) Yeah. (59:36) And that doesn't even include all the craziness with the Delta-8 intoxicating hemp taking place and just a schism in regulations between the two industries. (59:47) That's a whole nother topic.

Marcus Arredondo

(59:48) Yeah. (59:49) Ali, this has been super illuminating and I really appreciate your work and doing what you're doing to bring forth, I think, what seems like a very promising pathway to healing. (1:00:01) And I also think that there's a lot of opportunity for better relationships, which might increase our civility and how sort of we work generally as a species and as a society.(1:00:13) But as we wrap up, I just want to ask, you have any closing thoughts or things you think we might've missed?

Ali Amirhooshmand

(1:00:20) No. (1:00:21) First and foremost, I really want to appreciate the opportunity to come here and share my experiences. (1:00:25) And more importantly, I really want to commend you for the work you're doing, bringing attention and raising awareness to these important issues.(1:00:32) So thank you for what you're doing to contribute to the movement. (1:00:35) Well, it's likewise.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:00:36) I appreciate you. (1:00:37) Thank you for coming on and I wish you luck.

Ali Amirhooshmand

(1:00:40) Awesome. (1:00:40) I look forward to continuing the conversation with you. (1:00:43) For sure.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:00:44) Thanks for listening. (1:00:45) For a detailed list of episodes and show notes, visit scalesofsuccesspodcast.com. (1:00:50) If you found this conversation engaging, consider signing up for our newsletter, where we go even deeper on a weekly basis, sharing exclusive insights and actionable strategies that can help you in your own journey.(1:00:59) We'd also appreciate if you subscribed, rated, or shared today's episode. (1:01:03) It helps us to attract more illuminating guests, adding to the list of enlightening conversations we've had with New York Times bestsellers, producers, founders, CEOs, congressmen, and other independent thinkers who are challenging the status quo. (1:01:15) You can also follow us for updates, extra content, and more insights from our guests.(1:01:20) We hope to have you back again next week for another episode of Scales of Success. (1:01:24) Scales of Success is an Edgewest Capital Production.