Scales Of Success Podcast

#45 - The Parenting Secrets We Forgot to Use with Michaeleen Doucleff

• Marcus Arredondo

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Are today’s parenting habits making kids less resilient? In this week’s episode, Marcus welcomes Michaeleen Doucleff, NPR correspondent and bestselling author of Hunt, Gather, Parent, to share lessons from cultures around the world on raising capable, connected children. From letting go of overpraise to fostering real contribution, Michaeleen offers simple, powerful shifts that nurture confidence, purpose, and emotional strength for kids and adults alike.

Michaeleen Doucleff is an NPR science correspondent covering parenting, psychology, and neuroscience. Formerly a research chemist with a PhD from UC Berkeley and a fellowship at the NIH, she is the New York Times bestselling author of Hunt, Gather, Parent. Her upcoming book, Dopamine Kids, arrives in March 2026.

Learn more about Michaeleen Doucleff:
🌐Website: https://michaeleendoucleff.com/

Episode highlights:
(6:48) Why is praise a weak tool?
(11:37) Cooperation as a core human need
(17:02) The forgotten roots of modern parenting advice
(22:34) The power of being quiet
(28:42) Chores, purpose, and mental health
(36:04) Emotional regulation by modeling calm
(46:30) Key lessons from raising Rosie
(50:19) Introducing Dopamine Kids
(51:47) Outro

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Note: The transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

Michaeleen Doucleff

(0:00) You need to be the rock in their storm. (0:03) You don't need to participate in the storm You need to be the rock in their storm and then they'll come to you and they'll like you said, they'll feel safe They'll feel loved and for a lot of kids any words Above a whisper above a few words is gonna charge them up more, right? (0:20) But you're exactly right.(0:21) They just feel your energy

Marcus Arredondo

(0:23) I'm excited to share today's episode with Michaeline Duclef a PhD author of New York Times best-selling book hunt gather parent (0:30) And Peabody award-winning NPR science correspondent who's turned cultural curiosity into actionable wisdom (0:35) While traveling with her young daughter Rosie to live among the Mayan Inuit and Hizabay communities (0:40) She discovered how autonomy cooperation and quiet guidance can replace control and constant praise (0:46) We talked about letting children truly participate in family life (0:49) Resisting the urge to over prepare them for challenges and how calm listening can transform both parenting and adult relationships (0:55) Her work is a reminder that purpose comes from contribution and that sometimes saying less teaches more (1:01) Michaeline's approach blends anthropology neuroscience and lived experience into lessons relevant for parents and non-parents alike (1:08) Let's start the show.(1:10) I'm Mickalene. (1:11) Welcome Michaelene Michaelene. (1:13) Thank you Camera's a little bit of a celebrity sighting for me because your your book was on my wife and my Book Club for we sort of try and get through some books for parenting And this was a big book that I want to talk about hunt gather parent.(1:33) But before we start, how's Rosie?

Michaeleen Doucleff

(1:36) Oh, she's great She's almost 10. (1:38) Now. (1:38) She's fantastic.(1:39) She's like the most Wonderful human one of the most wonderful human beings.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:44) I know She's really spectacular actually It's interesting because I you know, you I sort of feel like I know you and her a little bit from the book Obviously, she was three at the time. (1:54) Yes, so a lot has changed since then but I Want to kick this off. (1:59) I just want to give some benefit to the audience here for your background because I think it helps to Texturize what your writing is about and what perspective you come from not only as an NPR correspondent and writer, but You've got a Bachelor of Science from in biology from Cal Caltech Caltech a Master of Science in viticulture and Enology, what's the analogy?

Michaeleen Doucleff

(2:25) Winemaking.

Marcus Arredondo

(2:26) Okay. (2:26) There you go. (2:27) PhD in physical chemistry Yeah, and you've completed a postdoctoral fellowship at the National Institute of Health.(2:34) Is that correct?

Michaeleen Doucleff

(2:35) Yes.

Marcus Arredondo

(2:35) Okay

Michaeleen Doucleff

(2:35) So yes, I was I'm like trained classically as like I was trained to be an academic chemist, basically (2:41) Well, that was the path I was on

Marcus Arredondo

(2:44) It's interesting to hear that and to know this obviously because the way you write is so investigative from a (2:51) Obviously a journalistic perspective, but there's a certain student aspect to how you write which I think is (2:59) really compelling and (3:01) You know for the people who are listening who may not have children or are past (3:05) The point of having a child sort of in their life and having to raise it (3:09) I think it's important what I took away from this book was more about (3:14) Adults than children per se

Michaeleen Doucleff

(3:17) Yes

Marcus Arredondo

(3:17) You know, it's you know, the kids are just these these blobs that absorb the environment that they're in (3:25) There's obviously a lot of nature there (3:28) But nurture I think has a pretty significant role and I want to kick this off just to talk about from hunt gather parent (3:35) so (3:36) There's I'm gonna jump around on the pages here, but you start out talking about (3:42) Control early in the book they used to parents have gone into a control mode (3:47) Psychotherapist be Janet hips in 2019. (3:50) They used to promote autonomy (3:51) But now they're exerting more and more control which makes their kids more anxious and also less prepared for the unpredictable (3:57) this really resonated with me because (4:01) I'm at the playground (4:03) I'm around other parents and there is a constant knit in that at you know (4:08) children correcting their behavior so on and so forth allow me to continue for a minute because I know I'm droning on because this is (4:14) Really you that I want to I want you to be giving this but I find that control connected to another theme (4:20) which is praise and that's really where I wanted to start out with because sure I (4:26) Let me read a couple of sections (4:28) I want to give you my take on sort of this and I want you to confirm deny object (4:33) However, you see fit but when you look across and I'm quoting you when you look across cultures and throughout history our parenting approach (4:40) That is oodles of praise little to no criticism constantly soliciting a child's preference stands alone (4:46) One could argue that we're the only ones ever to act this way in many cultures (4:50) Parents praise very little or not at all yet (4:53) Their children grow up exhibiting all signs of robust mental health as well as great empathy further in the cultures (4:59) Visit in this book (5:00) Which I'll address the children who receive little praise show more confidence and mental strength than their American counterparts who are steeped in praise (5:09) The last phrase which is a little bit later in the book page 112 praise is a tricky beast (5:14) It can fizzle with a kid for many reasons (5:16) especially when the praise doesn't feel genuine doesn't seem justified for the accomplishment or is (5:21) Simply ever present when a child's every positive action garners a good job or nice then praise can undermine their intrinsic motivation (5:27) making children (5:29) Less likely to do a task in the future (5:31) So I sort of threw a bunch out at at you but with respect to praise and control which I think have a lot (5:38) To do with each other. (5:39) Yes from my perspective I grew up in a very loving household that that was very praise oriented, but I have struggled as an adult to garner more intrinsic validation and with the praise also came the fact that it was Right and wrong rather than correct and incorrect and I started to pair Incorrect with wrong as in morally wrong.(6:04) And so it reduced my motivation to seek those errors to seek those reps (6:09) Yeah, so I'm gonna pause but I want to hear a little I want you to go in whatever direction you feel appropriate (6:14) But I I am very interested in the praise aspect of what you (6:19) Unearthed and I in for last last (6:22) segment for audience (6:24) In hunt-gather parent you travel to three disparate location one being in the Maya villages of the Yucatan (6:29) The other being the Inuit people of the Arctic in Kangaroo (6:36) And then Hadza be (6:39) Tanzania so (6:41) Completely outside the US and Western culture. (6:44) So yes, that's the groundwork

Michaeleen Doucleff

(6:47) Okay, I mean it's a big topic you could write a whole book on praise people have written whole books on praise and (6:54) In how it affects children and how it affects adults, you know (6:58) So first of all just to be really clear praise is a very new thing in parenting (7:03) This is something that arose really in the 80s and there's a whole story there (7:08) Before that like praise was not given and you you know (7:12) I mean very infrequent just as you find in cultures around the world today, too (7:17) So I think that there is so you can raise incredibly wonderful (7:22) Confident kids full of self-esteem full of everything without really praising them at all (7:28) That is number one that there's more proof of that than the other direction (7:32) but second of all (7:33) you're absolutely right in the sense that I think we don't realize how much praise is actually controlling the child right because (7:42) I think that there are hearts are in it and we you know (7:45) we're trying to give children praise because we want to boost their confidence and their self-esteem and this is what a lot of the (7:51) Drive behind giving children praise came from this idea that like if you don't I mean there was a time in like the 80s (7:56) Where parents were told if you don't praise them, they're gonna like you're pregnant as teenagers.(8:00) They're gonna be alcoholics I mean just these horrible things weren't true at all. (8:04) So there's like a good intention there but I do think that most of the time we are giving praise because we are trying to Control their behavior. (8:14) We're trying to control what they do what they focus on.(8:18) It is a manipulative tool now (8:20) You can say well (8:21) I don't do that and I'm sure there are examples where people parents aren't doing that (8:24) But at the end of the day praise is trying to get a child to do X continue to do X, you know (8:30) type of thing (8:31) so I think that's a reason why it's hard for parents to let go of it because it's like (8:35) They don't have any other tools in their toolbox to control a child's behavior effectively (8:40) Yeah, and that's a big part of how gather parent is right is this idea that we we are so controlling of children and (8:49) yet (8:50) Children are so poorly behaved in America and that was that I mean that is the case, you know (8:56) If you look around the world (8:59) American children (9:01) score pretty poorly on scales of behavior and emotional (9:05) Regulation emotional intelligence a whole host of behaviors (9:09) So then the question becomes why why what's happening if we're so controlling why why can't we get them to behave?(9:15) and I think that there's like a positive feedback loop that happens a little bit where it's like (9:20) We control they don't behave well (9:23) We can try to control more but I think at the end of the day the problem is we don't have any other tools (9:27) We aren't taught other tools to help a child learn to respect parents learn to do chores (9:34) Voluntarily want to do chores learn to take care of their siblings learn to you know, calm themselves down (9:41) Be autonomous, right?(9:43) We don't have these tools We've we've forgotten these tools and a big part of the book and me Traveling to those places was to try to learn these tools so you can throw control out of them Just throw it out. (9:54) It doesn't work it as human beings. (9:56) We are not meant to be controlled (9:58) We evolved not to be controlled (10:00) So throw that out and then start learning these other tools that really can be effective and praise is just a very very weak weak tool

Marcus Arredondo

(10:08) So something that you're talking about as relates to praise and follow me here for a second (10:12) I had a dog rehabilitator, which was a very very popular show (10:16) Talk about and I had a personal experience with him and bear with me because I'm gonna land the plane here (10:21) It is not as outlandish as it sounds but he talks about this very specific thing a lot of (10:27) Dog owners tell their dogs to sit (10:30) Lay down to control the dog (10:33) But his ultimate motivation was to be connected to the dog for the dog to listen to be a part of the tribe (10:39) to be part of the pack and to be (10:41) Conscious of how that dog's behavior is integrating into the overall (10:47) Society that they are a part of and I found a lot of similarities as (10:52) I was reading this book one thing that you mentioned is (10:56) So the parents only choose to instruct when the instruction also helps transmit the value of cooperation (11:01) that's and there's something interwoven in all three of these communities about (11:07) the cognizance and (11:10) Awareness even for very very young children (11:13) absolutely are in between who are maybe not the oldest or maybe the oldest but are also caring for a (11:19) Grandmother and a parent and also a child to understand (11:23) The role that they should have when they should leave when they should fall back how to fill the gaps.(11:29) So there's a lot more Openness, I would say it's less egocentric in a lot of ways, right?

Michaeleen Doucleff

(11:35) It's completely I mean, this is what's missing like in this whole parenting World right now right this whole gentle parenting not gentle parenting like there's like this whole you know thing and what's missing in all of these Is this connection to others right and in teaching children that you're part of this group? (11:56) And and I would argue any there's a lot of evidence that supports it that as human beings (12:00) We have a very strong fundamental need to work with other people (12:05) Like we know it right that little kids are born helpful, right that toddlers want to clean the windows (12:10) They want they would jump up to help (12:12) There's all this experimental data showing the children in America born really helpful and something happens (12:18) It gets eroded away by the time they're seven eight nine. (12:22) They don't want to be helpful anymore Well, this isn't the case and many and what one could argue the rest of the world besides European societies Children don't lose that innate Inherent helpfulness that they're born with so we are actually doing something in our society that takes this away or roads it I would say It's not gone But we all have this this like need inside of us. (12:46) It's a fundamental need of being human to help our families to help the people that love us and in fact when we we don't teach children that I think we We start to create I think a lot of problems.(13:00) It's a very big disservice So in the Maya culture, one of the things that the parents will tell you is that it's the job of the parent to find opportunities for the child to help For the child to have purpose in the family that that's a key function of the parent in our society We think it's the opposite. (13:19) We think it's our job as the parent to do all the work (13:22) And have the child like sit there and you know be entertained by either us or a screen (13:28) Right, and I would argue that we're really doing children disservice when we do this that the we as human beings (13:34) Have two big fundamental needs one is autonomy (13:38) One is the sense that I kind of control my day-to-day (13:42) actions and movements and kind of right and the other one is (13:45) Cooperation working together as you said like a pack like a team because what this does is this tells the child (13:53) I'm gonna be taken care of right?(13:55) I'm safe and Those two needs autonomy and cooperation you think about them. (14:00) They're kind of Opposite of each other, right? (14:03) And so that's why it's tough (14:05) It's it's it's this sweet spot between allowing the child to have this autonomy this independence this freedom (14:12) But at the same time having this very very clear connection where they're helping in (14:18) Their family and for a little child like a toddler or five six seven year old that is it is very tiny tiny things (14:26) it's like (14:28) Chocolate, you know stirring the pot of pancake batter in the morning. (14:32) You're like, that's it, you know (14:34) Going with the parent to the post office (14:35) Hanging out with the parent at the you know (14:38) Picking out something from the the aisle at the grocery store (14:42) and then you know as the child gets older these tasks expand and (14:46) Then you start to see how cooperation and autonomy start to go hand-in-hand and it's really beautiful (14:51) Because the helping then gives the child chances for autonomy (14:54) So this is so central and this is what is just so missing in (14:59) The parenting zeitgeist and like the trendy parenting stuff right now is this connection and that's truly how you connect to a child is by (15:07) Finding opportunities for them to help you and including them in your life

Marcus Arredondo

(15:12) So I want to talk about the zeitgeist that you're referring to because you mentioned in 1980s (15:18) Basically a line of thinking that resulted from the 1980s (15:21) I think it's if it's the one that you reference in the book (15:23) I'm familiar with what you're referring to so I'd love for you to explore that but as it relates to now (15:28) I I'm thinking of two (15:30) distinct aspects or (15:31) Characteristics of a modern parent one is which you disabuse very quickly this need to constantly entertain your child to (15:40) Get more toys for them. (15:43) I mean we've seen toddlers play inside a used box for hours and have a terrific time with only Cardboard the other is a little bit.(15:55) I think that maybe stems back to that study but I sometimes wonder or think that parents state things at the playground or in front of other people so that their peers Don't judge them for a certain what might view be viewed as a lack of involvement. (16:11) So I'm curious Can you reference that study and then and maybe expand on what I'm asking this study about praise? (16:20) Is that the one or what the one I was thinking of was the doctor who?(16:24) Or may not have have been a doctor who ended up writing a (16:28) not a cheat sheet, but a guy that was ultimately for (16:32) foster homes as a (16:35) means to how to raise children which was (16:39) partially informed if not completely misinformed and (16:43) led a society down the road toward a style of raising children that is (16:49) Dissimilar to anything else in the world you mentioned here that 96% of all studies are euro centric (16:56) They're based on Europeans when Europeans are comprising 12% of the entire population

Michaeleen Doucleff

(17:01) Yeah (17:02) So I mean if we look back at like kind of where we got (17:06) How we've gotten to this point today where we we kind of have forgotten how to parent in many ways (17:12) We have to go back to like where does this parenting advice that we get come from right and a lot of the advice today (17:20) Especially with babies you can trace back to like I think it's the 17 (17:24) It's either the 1700s or the 1800s.(17:26) I haven't it's it's it's far It's over a hundred and fifty years ago. (17:30) And basically what was happening was at the time (17:33) you know there were these founding hospitals within orphanages where doctors and nurses and people were taking care of like (17:40) dozens even hundreds of babies and (17:42) children and (17:44) The nurses and the doctors one of the doctors like wrote this pamphlet to help the caretakers in these orphanages take care (17:52) you know mass number of babies and a mass number of children and what they found was that (17:59) Parents outside the orphanages were actually really interested in these pamphlets and they've started buying them (18:06) And at the time what was happening was that parents were losing their their teachers, right?(18:11) They were starting to lose the people that taught them how to parent, right? (18:15) So in the past and across all the world people learn to parent from other parents their parents from the older generation (18:23) That either lives with them or lives near them (18:26) And then they also learn a lot of parenting when their children because they're raising siblings or cousins (18:32) but in during this time parents were starting to lose those teachers and (18:37) This is in Europe and and so they were hungry for advice they were like, we don't know (18:42) We don't know what to do with a baby. (18:43) We don't know how to get the baby to sleep We don't know how to get the baby to eat. (18:46) We don't know what to do with a toddler and so they started buying these pamphlets that the doctors were making for this kind of industrialization of childcare and A lot of the advice that we hear today.(18:59) You can track back to these pamphlets that have just kind of been (19:04) Regurgitated and you know kind of rolled over kind of the extremes from one end to the other back and forth echoing through time (19:11) But this is why we're in the situation (19:13) We are in today where we we have children and we don't really know how to parent and we don't have these tools (19:18) And so we kind of then rely on these tricks that we see on social media or we rely on this (19:25) You know really control this idea of control.(19:28) That's very kind of strict. (19:30) I'm gonna tell the child what to do at every moment Sort of parenting which is really common in the cities Like if you pay attention parents will be telling their child something you do like every couple seconds, right? (19:42) That is unheard of around the world.(19:45) Like if you pay attention, I think you're in LA, right? (19:48) You said yeah, there will be parents on the playground who are not doing that and you can probably ask them How long have you been in this country? (19:58) Because they probably haven't been here that long or they're they're part of you know a (20:03) Cultural group in America that doesn't have this line of European (20:07) background industrial background (20:10) but (20:12) yeah, so that that's that's kind of the (20:15) reason why we're (20:16) Here today is because of these pamphlets which then got turned into parenting books and and now one could argue (20:23) you know some of this stuff online you can take straight out of (20:27) These these books some of that stuff online and it's really popular today though is it's really (20:33) unique and new and (20:35) really kind of (20:37) Many parents around the world would think it's totally crazy

Marcus Arredondo

(20:41) The playground thing is it for sure real I mean (20:44) you advise (20:45) Taking a stopwatch out and seeing if you can go 20 minutes without saying something your kid (20:50) and if you're not aware of it if you're not mindful of that that is something that is (20:55) Unusual for a lot of parents and I will say there's a lot of stuff in this book that we (21:00) started to experiment with and I it brought a lot of (21:04) Awareness to what we were and weren't doing but we have seen a very (21:08) Significant now my son is two years nine months old (21:11) So perfect, I sort of feel like is a little bit ideal (21:15) But we within a very short amount of time sub four weeks. (21:19) I'd say probably closer to two weeks The amount of his willingness to contribute his listening there's no more sort of there's negotiation at bedtime You know five more minutes five more minutes. (21:30) We're still working on that process But during the day when we're you know, he's spilling crackers, you know, I asked him to sort of give him to me He'll give him to me and I'm not taking it away from him and I asked him to do something else and then after he Does it he says can have him back now and it's it's like this Cooperation.(21:51) Mm-hmm. (21:52) That was a trust that sort of gets built as well There's a lot of experiments you put into this book that I think are compelling not just for adults with respect to children but also Adults with respect to adults for example, one thing that you talk about is you talk about knowing when not to help? (22:13) But also sort of when two children are one tattles on another rather than sort of going all out on them You just sort of hmm Let things simmer a little bit.(22:23) Wait a second I've started to see even that application in my adult life have some really terrific consequences Yeah, I think you know one of the things I'm next a couple weeks.

Michaeleen Doucleff

(22:38) I think I'm gonna be on CBS Morning or whatever. (22:41) I'm really excited because it's been the books been out for like four years and like, um (22:46) But it's I was really trying to think of like these kind of really important nutshells of the book, you know (22:50) I know and I and I think one of the big ones is just be quiet more often like just be quiet (22:56) Like like we say way way too much and and I think um, like when in doubt just be quiet (23:04) You know like or just that's interesting I say that so much to my (23:08) to Rosie all the time even now, especially as she gets older even more like that's interesting and then (23:15) Let things unfold, you know, let it unfold like or let them didn't tell you more about it (23:20) Let them have their perspective on it, you know (23:23) I was with a family a couple weeks ago and the little girls that well, they weren't that little they were like 9 and 12 and (23:30) They're in it Rosie's almost 10 now (23:32) so there's about the same age and they were going to overnight camp for a week for the first time and (23:38) It was incredible how much the mom like set up anxiety for these kids by what she was saying (23:44) Like she just kept talking about it, you know, you're gonna be you might be afraid you might like, you know (23:49) you might want to come home like this is all this stuff and I (23:51) Really wanted to tell her like just be quiet. (23:54) Like just be quite let the child have Their experience of things, you know on that note We're not we still in San Francisco. (24:04) And when Rosie was little she had a dentist procedure and The dentist told me she's actually in her 60s.(24:11) So she's come from a different generation She told me she said, please do not tell Rosie about what's gonna happen, please. (24:18) Please. (24:18) She was like begging me She was like parents tell their kid everything that happens.(24:22) You're gonna get the mask on you're gonna get this drill You're gonna like and she says they come in here terrified Yeah, and she says, you know, and she's like, I know it comes from like a good place You're trying to prepare the child. (24:33) You're trying to like we're always trying to prepare the child (24:35) But what you're doing is you're putting your experiences your fears your anxieties on these little children (24:43) Or on these nine-year-olds these ten-year-olds and I think it's a real big disservice to them and just again nowhere in the world (24:50) But parents do these things (24:51) You know if the child's gonna be harmed yes, okay, we're gonna prepare for this or we're gonna stop it or right but just kind of (24:59) Letting children what I kind of think of is like it's a form of autonomy, right? (25:03) It's like an emotional autonomy It's like letting them experience Their life as it comes and their experiences of things can be totally different than yours and I bet you Especially with the little ones. (25:17) They'll be less anxiety fueled You know and like because there's many times when I'm anxious about something and if I keep my mouth shut Rosie's not anxious about it.(25:28) And you know, what is a big fine and like I never needed to like come in there So I I really think you hit on like something. (25:35) That's so important. (25:36) I just You can always talk about things later You know, there's always gonna be time to talk right?(25:43) It's so it's just like be quiet And there's a lot of things in children's lives. (25:47) You can't fix with words. (25:49) You can't you can't fix them (25:51) you can't fix it in the moment and you can't fix it with your mouth and (25:55) So just let it let it let it be, you know, give a touch on the shoulder (26:00) Yeah, like so many times when I want to say something to Rosie (26:03) I'll just touch her, you know, or these other little girls that just just you know, just just (26:08) Children in our society are really starving for physical touch (26:12) You know and I think that that is so much more powerful (26:15) Especially to little children then all these words that were taught to say, you know (26:20) Even as a mature adult if somebody's like saying all these words to me (26:25) I just I feel more overwhelmed right and so to a little a little person (26:30) Yeah, just take take a pause

Marcus Arredondo

(26:32) well, I mean you sort of allude to this multiple times throughout the book, but this disservice of the fulfillment of (26:39) Contributing to your family of going through this now (26:42) I think about a parent and you know using a dentist's office as an example (26:48) The parent takes on this burden when a baby is born that I will always protect you, right? (26:54) I will want to keep you safe. (26:55) But the reality is They are going you are not doing them any Service by disallowing them from falling off a bike.(27:04) They need to understand that falling off a bike hurts It makes you not want to fall off a bike, right? (27:09) I mean, this is a very rudimentary example (27:12) But the same thing can be applied to love (27:14) You don't want them not to fall in love because your heart is gonna get broken at some point in your teenage years (27:20) you need to let that happen and (27:23) That autonomy seems to come from I mean our greatest (27:27) I don't know (27:28) I I think one of my the greatest success I could achieve among them as a dad would be not to (27:35) Put my baggage on to my son (27:37) Yeah (27:37) I would like for my son to develop his own baggage (27:40) But not my own like I don't want to give him my you're gonna give him your baggage no matter what so for sure

Michaeleen Doucleff

(27:46) For some of it, but but you don't need to like verbally put it on him

Marcus Arredondo

(27:53) Identify the reality of the world from his own purview (27:56) There's a I don't know why why this sticks out as a story that has always stuck with me (28:00) This young girl is talking to her mom over Thanksgiving they're making (28:05) Thanksgiving dinner and she cuts the ham in half and puts it into the oven and (28:10) the little girl says why do you cut the ham in half and (28:13) The mom says I don't know ask grandma and she goes to ask grandma and grandma says, I don't know ask great-grandma (28:19) She goes ask great-grandma. (28:20) Great-grandma goes. (28:21) Oh because the ovens were half the size (28:23) And it's like, you know, you don't really if you just pass on these traditions without actually contemplating (28:29) What the reality of right now is you are taking away the privilege of that child from exploring whatever (28:37) Might be better than however, you're living your own reality

Michaeleen Doucleff

(28:41) Yeah (28:41) And I mean, I think you can make the same argument like with the control like if you're just constantly controlling everything they do (28:47) Let's say that kid wants to stick the ham in the oven without cutting it in half (28:51) Many parents would be like no you have to cut it in half, right? (28:54) But it's like why not why not put it in there with that kind right like children actually have these amazing ideas When you give them some space to experiment and in it and help you in the kitchen help you clean up Help you do the laundry. (29:09) I think you'll be stunned Even your little three-year-old will have some amazing ideas for improvements of these processes But you have to step back and like give them some space You also have to believe that they want to help right?(29:23) This is a massive problem in our society. (29:26) We believe that children don't want to help. (29:28) We think they're greedy.(29:29) We think they're selfish They just want to sit on their phones, you know, they just want to sit in front of Netflix But actually again that goes against so much data from around the world and from psychology Psychologists here children want to be useful, you know, there was um, and they want to learn skills They want to learn how to cook. (29:47) They want to learn how to do the laundry. (29:48) They do They have to otherwise they're gonna have stinky clothes one day so there's actually um You know, I think because of our perception of children Then we don't give them these opportunities.(30:01) We think they're hurting we're hurting them by asking them to help right? (30:05) But in actuality, we're really helping them. (30:08) So there's a report that came out on like the National Adolescence (30:12) Committee some some some Commission committee from the government about the state of adolescence in America right now (30:18) I know there's this mental health crisis and a big portion of this report is about how (30:22) Adolescents feel like they don't have purpose in life (30:25) They don't have a purpose in their family (30:27) They don't have a purpose in their community their lives feel purposeless and meaningless and this makes them feel bad (30:32) Well this purpose and meaning doesn't just happen when you're 15 (30:38) This is something that parents cultivate and nurture in a child (30:43) From the beginning in the many communities from the toddler from the baby stage (30:47) The babies are with the mom when they do all these things (30:49) And so this is something that you could start with your toddler, but you could start with your six-year-old (30:55) you could start with your nine-year-old and (30:57) What you're doing is you're teaching them how to have purpose how to contribute and that I will argue and a lot of these (31:04) Psychologists on this report would argue will protect them from mental health problems in their adolescence years in their young adult years (31:12) because again as human beings we need to feel purposeful to feel good and (31:18) That doesn't matter what age you are (31:20) And so a lot of the book is about changing that perception right that the children want to help (31:26) That they have an innate desire to help and if you keep thinking they don't (31:32) Eventually, they'll be like, oh she's right (31:34) Or he's right and that's what the data showed that that's why the nine ten eleven twelve-year-olds don't want to anymore because you've been telling (31:41) Him, they don't want to for nine years (31:44) But I I truly believe there's a flame in all of us (31:47) This that stays lit and you just have to fan it and you have to kind of slowly bring it out at those older (31:53) older years (31:56) I'll tell you this great story.(31:57) It's not in the book (31:58) But because it happened after the book came out, but I was talking to a researcher and a psychologist (32:03) She's Mexican American psychologist and she was telling me that her (32:07) Toddler what they were she was doing laundry the other day and (32:11) her toddler came over and started like looking like he was like balling up she was balling up the clothes and kind of throwing them and (32:18) She said, you know a lot of them American parents would think that the kid the toddler was playing (32:24) Right that she's balling up the clothes and throwing right making a huge mess, right? (32:29) And she said but she was trying to fold the clothes (32:32) She didn't know how to fold the clothes (32:33) She was imitating the mom and she was trying to fold the clothes and then she was trying to put him in the shelf (32:38) And that was like her (32:40) the little toddlers version of folding the clothes and (32:45) I don't know what's the right answer whether she's trying to make a mess or she's trying to fold the clothes, but (32:51) Data would suggest she's probably trying to fold the clothes because there's a lot of data to support the toddlers want to be helpful and (32:57) They mimic the adults (32:59) but second if (33:02) The mom says hey, she's trying to fold the clothes. (33:05) Let's let's look what happens Okay, you're trying to fold the clothes Thank you.(33:11) Well, let me let me help you fold them. (33:13) Let me show you see we do it like this So now the mom is one acknowledging the child is being helpful telling the child. (33:19) She's helpful Teaching the child to be helpful including the child in her chores Building a connection with the child right so that the next time the mom's holding the clothes I bet the child runs back over wants to do it again, right?(33:33) Now, let's look at the other thing. (33:35) Let's say that you interpret this as the child making a mess Throwing the clothes around the room. (33:40) How does the parent respond?(33:43) Probably what are you doing? (33:44) Why are you making a mess, you know? (33:47) Get out of here.(33:48) I'm trying to fold the clothes, right? (33:49) So there's like anger There's a disconnection There's also telling the child that she's making it a mess, even though she might be wanting to fold the clothes right, so it's a completely different outcome and Over time these two different outcomes create two different children Sure. (34:09) One is a child that grows up wanting to help the parent Feeling included feeling purposeful, you know, it's the it's the Rosie yesterday at nine and a half who?(34:20) Mama grab the clothes get that grab the basket. (34:23) Let's put him outside telling me to do it you know, the other one is a child who eventually probably will stop coming over and asking or Wanting to be near the mom and it will grow up thinking I'm making a mess. (34:37) I just make a mess right?(34:38) And so I think that not only is it about control? (34:41) But it's also about how we perceive Children as you in humans, right?

Marcus Arredondo

(34:46) I mean you could do this with your with your spouse the perception thing I think is real to me because You mentioned I think it's in the Inuit community that views temper tantrums as a child Like childish behavior no adult ever exhibits a loss of emotional control. (35:06) They never yell They never know have outbursts It's they are accepting that the child is operating within their nature and they're not being selfish. (35:14) They're not being anything This is just operating within their nature and to the extent it just seems logical to me that if you allow The child the agency to process that to figure out wins for lack of a better word of accomplishing participating Fulfilling the modeling behavior that we're witnessing around them.(35:34) They start to (35:35) Develop some emotional regulation as it relates to that right because they start to develop (35:40) the autonomy that you're referring to but they're also digesting that (35:45) I can't fold it but mom's gonna help me fold it and you just keep the frustration of doing until finally I did it (35:51) They sell they yell I did it (35:52) There's something really satisfying as a parent to witness that but as a child (35:57) It's giving you the confidence that I'm capable of potentially doing this and another step.

Michaeleen Doucleff

(36:04) That's right That's right. (36:05) And it is um, there's so many benefits to chores I can't I mean we can talk about that the whole time but you're absolutely right I think you know, there is in the Inuit community in a lot of cultures There's this acceptance that children aren't born emotionally regulated, right? (36:20) like often you will hear in public places like planes and (36:24) public spaces a (36:26) Parent yelling at a very small child to be quiet (36:30) You know and it's like, you know, okay, first of all, very small children aren't born knowing how to be quiet (36:36) They're not in fact, they're born knowing how to scream is what they're born knowing how to do and (36:41) And so accepting that that's a skill right that that takes time to learn just as it does (36:45) For us to read and do math and we how do we learn to read and do math?(36:50) We practice it right and we see our parents doing it We see our other people doing it and we were given space to do it wrong, right? (36:58) We're it's okay to get the math wrong at first and and so parents see that and they say, okay (37:04) This child is born not knowing how to regulate her emotions (37:09) I'm gonna regulate mine (37:11) in front of her and and know that that is gonna teach her how and it's not because she's selfish and wants to press buttons and (37:18) No, none of that stuff again very anti social view of a child (37:23) It's because she just doesn't know she doesn't have understanding. (37:26) She's not mature, right? (37:27) And so yes giving her this space but also modeling it right and in being regulated ourselves (37:32) Which really just involves being quiet and being calm right way more effective than saying anything (37:38) Everybody not easy, you know, because I think because we were never taught it like I was never taught that right (37:46) My dad would just yell my mom would just get really upset (37:49) Right, like there were just a minute (37:51) My mom would like try to do the gentle parenting thing for about 15 minutes to 30 minutes and then yell (37:58) You know, that's the dark underbelly of the gentle parenting world (38:01) So I was not taught that our society doesn't teach us that think about how many times you've been yelled at in the last like (38:07) Six months, right and so yes (38:10) I think first we have to learn that and (38:12) Then we can we can pass it on and then we have this skill that we can use everywhere, too (38:16) And it's very powerful right to be able to keep your calm when the poop hits the fan, you know, wherever you are (38:23) You know, it's a very powerful position to be in and and you can learn it.(38:28) It's not hard I mean it takes time but right practice just like any practice. (38:33) That's right and there are some like tricks to it to like we We tend to think that it's about squelching the feelings in the moment, but that doesn't work it's really about practicing these other Emotions not in those heated moments with children too, and then you can kind of grasp you can grab those Calm or emotions because you've practiced them. (38:54) They're like muffling emotions are like muscles.(38:56) You have to use them and then they're more easily (38:59) You can grab on to them more in those heated moments instead of turning to like this very strong (39:05) Unhinged well

Marcus Arredondo

(39:06) I'm hoping that you can give us an example and one that you that was demonstrated in the book was that was (39:11) Mind-blowingly effective to me and how quickly it sort of happened, but when my son started to escalate a situation I (39:20) Would typically negate it or provide a more stern (39:25) disruption to it (39:26) but the counterpoint that is like the least expected in Western culture, which is just to (39:32) You know go real quiet and and like give him a hug and say do you are you okay and (39:40) See this reversal of just seeing him (39:43) You know, he's seeing red and for him to just you know (39:46) All of a sudden I could see him coming back to the world, right?(39:49) Yeah, and then all of a sudden I know you don't want to wear this but we have to try and focus on it You know, you have to be adaptable and this isn't me pointing it at anything successful. (39:58) I'm doing I'm just trying to Showcase that that experiment was a really defining example of how my Natural inclination which by the way is patterned. (40:09) It's something I recognized myself growing up (40:11) That was how things were dealt with just to see that the opposite was so (40:16) Resounding it was (40:17) It was immediate, you know, he just felt loved not attacked and it was the reception was completely different (40:24) So is that the type of example you're referring to I'm hoping you have some others because I want to share (40:29) your perspective

Michaeleen Doucleff

(40:30) that's a beautiful example and I had a very similar experience with Rosie because (40:35) she would kind of come at me with a lot of emotion and intensity and sometimes even like violence and everything and and (40:42) I would kind of come back at the same level right the same energy the same intensity and (40:48) There was one day one night in particular after writing this book and traveling where I just looked at my husband and I said (40:55) Really calmly like she doesn't understand, you know, she's not doing this because (41:00) She wants to press my buttons.(41:02) She wants to hit me. (41:03) She wasn't I just said she doesn't understand This is a common thing that the in your parents would say she doesn't understand. (41:09) She doesn't have understanding and Rosie looked at me like What like I will never forget the look on her face.(41:18) She was just like stunned like you're not gonna get angry at me (41:21) you're not gonna like fight back and (41:24) I was like, and I think I just repeated it and she did exactly what you said (41:28) she just completely came down and like her whole face softened and like (41:32) Everything softened and it was exactly what she needed (41:35) She needed me to be that calmness in her storm as one of the mom says in that section (41:41) Like you need to be the rock and their storm (41:45) You don't need to participate in the storm (41:48) you need to be the rock in their storm and then they'll come to you and (41:51) They'll like you said, they'll feel safe. (41:53) They'll feel loved and for a lot of kids anywhere any words Above a whisper above a few words. (42:01) It's gonna it's gonna charge them up more, right?(42:04) But you're exactly right. (42:05) They just feel your energy. (42:07) It's just your your vibe, right?(42:10) I mean you think about it nonverbal children children are nonverbal from very unverbal for a long time, right? (42:15) And all they can feel is your energy, you know, and and take your energy And so if you're yelling or you're in this like stern kind of mode It's um, I think it scares a lot of them. (42:27) I think it they're not sure about it I think they're trying to understand it.(42:30) They're trying to match it, you know, and so it really is just about bringing this real calm This peacefulness because because everything is okay. (42:40) I mean it really is okay You know, like I know we're not supposed to tell children that they're okay, but it's okay to tell them that And like they're because they are. (42:51) Okay, like like many of children live in the most wonderful places in the world, you know, they have food and love and beautiful homes and They're okay.(43:04) They're really okay and Just feeling that yourself and you know, I think letting them Let it knowing that them being upset and then being uncomfortable and then being not so happy in a moment is okay, too Yeah, you know, that's okay. (43:21) That's that's life We you know, that's being a kid and and they'll stop you don't need to fix it Right, then you you don't you know, this is something that I actually ended up bringing to my marriage. (43:32) It was like What I think it was like emotional autonomy like just allowing people to have emotion.(43:38) Yeah You're you're upset, you know, like okay be upset no, I'm here I wanted to fix it right I wanted to fix Rosie's I wanted to fix my husband's I wanted to fix my mom's But I can't I can't fix it. (43:51) Yeah, I'm not them But I can tell them like I'm here if you need me, but you know have your emotions I we say now like you can have as big emotions as you want. (44:02) You just they can't hurt other people, right?(44:05) Right, no, I mean cuz Rosie's nine now she can't hit me now (44:08) I mean she learned that a long time ago, but like, you know, it's like you get your emotions out (44:12) Go do what you need to do (44:13) You just can't hurt yourself and you can't hurt other people and you really can't hurt our home like our environment (44:18) Like you just can't take it out (44:20) But you know have your emotions

Marcus Arredondo

(44:22) So I want to be mindful of time here and I want to give a little bit of I want to hear about dopamine

Michaeleen Doucleff

(44:30) Yes

Marcus Arredondo

(44:30) So I want to give you a little bit of time to tease that out because I'm very excited about that coming out (44:36) But before you do two things one you mentioned before and I conflated the wrong study. (44:41) Can you close the loop on?(44:44) Praise, where did the praise?

Michaeleen Doucleff

(44:46) Idea come from so it's in my book and you can find it but it it came from this report out of California (44:52) I think in the 80s that (44:54) made all these correlations between (44:56) Self-esteem and (44:59) Child's health mental health physical health and they and it was all tied (45:03) Self-esteem was all tied to praise and it was like it was it scared the bejeeves out of parents (45:08) Like if you don't raise your kids (45:10) they're gonna have all these problems and in a in a really big a really stuck like really hard in our society and and (45:17) Again, I think it's parents being hungry for tools (45:19) You know (45:20) like really hungry for tools that work and this seems like an easy one like just lay on the praise and like thing but (45:26) It's a week is a very very weak tool and in all and all of that stuff in that study has been (45:33) completely (45:34) Shown to not be correct and kind of ridiculous. (45:37) So Okay, good.

Marcus Arredondo

(45:39) Thank you for closing that loop for my own mental OCD, but I also wanted to ask You travel to these traveling with a three-year-old is not easy. (45:48) No, you went to extreme conditions I'm wondering if you can maybe tether what that experience was like with It's a it's a broader question, but I'm curious. (45:59) What have you taken away from those?(46:02) Experiences obviously exemplified in the book that had the most resounding effect on where Rosie is at nine and a half now What have you seem to be? (46:11) the most effective at Creating a nurturing environment for her to develop more emotional regulation more maturity more connectedness more purpose Any of those things I'm just curious if there's anything that stands out that has really Resonated as a through line between three and nine and a half.

Michaeleen Doucleff

(46:30) So I think there's two three major things (46:32) One thing we talked about is really learning to to be quiet (46:35) I mean really really like like you talked about like saying something every 20 minutes like (46:40) learning to be with her and just letting her be like (46:43) Creating environments where she can just be and I don't need to you know, I can watch her (46:48) I can keep my eye on her but as she's gotten older (46:54) Then this is probably the second thing. (46:56) So just just being quiet like doing those pauses more Really? (46:59) You need to people need to talk way less and and watch more because when you watch a child you learn about them You learn what they like you learn what they can do, right?(47:10) You can learn. (47:11) Oh this this cake climb a tree, you know Like if I just let him do it and I'm there watching it. (47:15) Wow, they can do it You know, you learn their limits you learn who they are.(47:19) You learn you you start to see them You can't connect to a person you can't see and if you're talking all the time You can't see the child and I see I mean see in like a deep way, right? (47:29) Yeah, but I think that two other two things are one including her in my life (47:35) so I don't we you know, I have my job and I (47:40) try to include her as much as possible in my job where I can and (47:44) And and I I would say if you can do this with your child it helps so much (47:50) They have this strong drive to learn (47:52) adult skills and be in the adult world and we in our society have taken them and just shoved them out of it and (47:58) It and they feel it (48:00) And so if you can bring them into your world just a tiny bit have them staple your papers (48:05) Put a stamp on mail like just take them to the post office like just something that's real and include them (48:12) It brings you so close to the child (48:14) So I take her when I travel (48:16) But it's almost almost a hundred percent of time to be honest. (48:19) I can't travel without her because I'm so lonely now I just like where's Rosie? (48:22) I need to be with her so that's what that one day is like include them and it doesn't have to be much especially at first just Five minutes a day a couple times a week, you know one meal a week make with the kids one meal a week So that's number one which just Grows over time because you learn to love to be with them I love being with Rosie.(48:46) The second thing is teaching her slowly over time How to be out in the world, so this is the autonomy bit It's misrepresented in our society because we think oh, they're 12 years old. (48:59) They're 9 years old. (49:00) Go back to the store You know, that's not how it works.(49:03) It's like the two-year-old your three-year-old go outside and get something Yeah, go get the mail go across the street and Knock on the neighbor's door and ask them a question. (49:12) I mean seriously the three-year-old could do that I would have the three-year-old doing that, you know, if the streets not too busy, whatever works, right? (49:18) But these slowly growing right and then over a year, it's like go down the street Then it's like going to the store by yourself.(49:25) And so like slowly teaching Rosie how to be Self-sufficient in our community without me. (49:32) Yeah, so at age 10 now, well, she's almost 10. (49:34) She'll be 10 in November She bikes to piano lessons by herself.(49:39) She bikes to her on Saturday She and her friend bike around our little town six hours. (49:44) We don't know where she is. (49:45) No, no GPS tracker You know, these are the things they need teaching her to be able to swim by herself You know these these these are skills just like the emotional autonomy that need to grow over time and the beauty of it is is as They grow.(49:59) Oh, you're just boosting confidence the whole way Children don't need to be like these big leaps of autonomy. (50:07) They need these little tiny increases, you know, the little ones just just Turning the oven on right, you know sticking something in the oven That's hot using a sharp knife. (50:18) Like this is what I say in the new book, which I'll bring up I call it like scary but fun That's what kids need every week scary, but fun.(50:28) This is a fundamental need of humans. (50:30) You need it, right? (50:31) I need it.(50:32) Like if I don't have scary but fun, I'm like I need to go on an adventure, you know You feel it right? (50:38) And so this is what children need. (50:39) And so that's the third thing.(50:41) So that gets into the next book (50:42) So the next book it comes out in March (50:44) It's called dopamine kids and it's basically the two areas of parenting where the ancient cultures didn't help me (50:52) Didn't work and that's that's the screens and ultra processed foods and (50:56) They work in our brain through a very similar mechanism the two things and so it's about how they work on our brains how they (51:03) work on our children's brains and how we can use that to (51:07) really take control back from them and get kids to actually want to do things off the screen and want to eat healthy food and (51:13) It's a really fascinating ride (51:16) It like completely kind of shifts the view of what screens and ultra processed foods are doing for kids

Marcus Arredondo

(51:21) So well, I'm excited about that not just as a parent but also to read it as an adult to be honest (51:26) Yeah, I'm very very excited. (51:28) Thank you very much for coming on.(51:30) I cannot recommend your book highly enough certainly for parents But there's a lot of great gems in there for people who are not parents any longer or not parents at all So any closing thoughts or things you think we might have missed?

Michaeleen Doucleff

(51:43) No, you're great. (51:44) Thank you so much for having me It was really interesting and fun.

Marcus Arredondo

(51:47) Thank you so much. (51:48) Keep up the good work.

Michaeleen Doucleff

(51:50) Thank you

Marcus Arredondo

(51:50) You (51:51) Thanks for listening for a detailed list of episodes and show notes visit scales of success podcast comm if you found this conversation (52:01) Engaging consider signing up for our newsletter where we go even deeper on a weekly basis sharing exclusive insights and actionable strategies (52:08) That can help you in your own journey (52:09) We'd also appreciate if you subscribed rated or shared today's episode (52:13) It helps us to attract more illuminating guests adding to the list of enlightening conversations (52:17) We've had with new york times bestsellers producers founders ceos congressmen and other independent thinkers who are challenging the status quo (52:25) You can also follow us for updates extra content and more insights from our guests (52:30) We hope to have you back again next week for another episode of scales of success scales of success is an edge west capital production