Scales Of Success Podcast

#51 - What If Your Face Wasn’t Yours Anymore? With Terry Healey

• Marcus Arredondo

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What happens when everything you thought defined you is stripped away? In this gripping conversation, Marcus interviews Terry Healey to reveal how tragedy can ignite purpose, power, and resilience. This isn’t about survival, it’s about the fire that rises when nothing else is left. Press play and feel the strength you didn’t know you had.

Terry Healey is a survivor of a life-threatening cancer that left him with a permanent facial difference, and he is an author, keynote speaker, and business strategist. A graduate of UC Berkeley with a thirty-five-year career as a marketing executive, Terry challenges audiences to face adversity and change, and apply his ReBAR resilience framework and principles to gain confidence, build resilience, and find greater purpose and joy in their personal and professional lives. Terry lives in Santa Cruz, CA, with his wife, Sue.

Reach out to Terry Healey:
🌐 Website: https://terryhealey.com/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terryhealey/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/terryhealeyus/?hl=en

Episode highlights:
(1:46) Life changes with a rare cancer diagnosis
(6:34) Terry’s survival kit: Faith and gratitude
(12:12) Dina’s tough words that sparked change
(20:11) Embracing change and building resilience
(25:32) Finding purpose through helping others
(30:47) Taking risk, vulnerability, and true liberation
(47:32) The power of trimming toxic relationships
(52:39) Practicing kindness and empathy daily
(55:28) Turning point: No more surgeries
(59:35) Terry's writing process
(1:01:43) Outro

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Note: The transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

Terry Healey

(0:00) Your issues are not your physical ones. (0:03) Your issues are deep and you need to recognize that. (0:08) And that was literally the last procedure I had, that sixth procedure in Chicago.(0:13) I didn't have any more. (0:15) I mean, it wasn't an instant thing, Mark. (0:17) It's not like I just stepped away and said, all right, that's it, I'm done.(0:20) But I reflected on it and that was it. (0:24) That was the turning point. (0:25) That was the point at which I realized I could control my destiny by focusing on rebuilding what was inside instead of focusing on trying to be this guy that I used to be.

Marcus Arredondo

(0:37) Today's guest is Terry Healy, a man who turned unimaginable loss into a message of resilience. (0:42) He lost half his face to cancer, endured 30 surgeries, and yet when you sit with him, what you notice most is in his facial difference. (0:49) It's his warmth.(0:50) I was struck by the moment he described kids no longer staring at him in public, not because they changed, but because he did. (0:56) In our conversation, Terry shares the tough feedback from a former romantic interest and fellow patient that changed his life, why gratitude became a survival kit, and how running shirtless symbolized deliberation. (1:06) His story is about healing, identity, and the freedom that comes with acceptance.(1:11) Let's start the show. (1:12) Terry, welcome. (1:13) Thank you for coming on.(1:15) Welcome. (1:15) And how are you doing today?

Terry Healey

(1:17) Doing great. (1:18) Thanks for having me, Marcus.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:19) So I want to launch off, for the benefit of the audience who are viewing and those who are listening, I want to just kick off, if you can reframe or at least set the table, what happened in 1984? (1:33) And I think that'll set the backdrop for your book, The Resilience Mindset, which we're going to dive into, as well as your prior book and some of your speaking engagements. (1:43) But can we kick it off in 1984?

Terry Healey

(1:46) Yeah, in 1984, I was a junior at UC Berkeley. (1:49) I was living life, as I say, on easy street, always going great. (1:54) Out of nowhere, this bump forms behind my right nostril.(1:59) I ended up spending a lot of time trying to figure out what it was. (2:02) They couldn't figure it out. (2:03) They thought it was a pimple.(2:06) They finally got the diagnosis. (2:08) I'm grateful that they got the right diagnosis because it's an incredibly rare form of cancer called a fibrosarcoma. (2:13) Typically, it doesn't occur in the head and neck area like mine did.(2:18) So bless for that. (2:20) They took care of it. (2:21) I was basically back to normal after surgery.(2:25) They said, oh, I think we caught this in the early stages. (2:27) But six months later, Marcus, is when the tingling sensations started. (2:34) And I started to feel things.(2:36) And that's when I went back to UC San Francisco and ended up having an incredibly serious situation on my hands that I had no idea was coming, which resulted in a surgical procedure, 10 and a half hours long, where they removed half my nose, the shelf of my right eye, the muscle in the bone for my right cheek, part of my upper lip, part of my hard palate, the six of my teeth. (3:05) And I woke up attached to my chest because they had transplanted this full thickness skin graft from my chest to fill in this cavity that had been created on my face.

Marcus Arredondo

(3:15) And so it increased blood flow there, right? (3:17) Yeah.

Terry Healey

(3:20) It needed its own blood supply in order to transplant that tissue because it was such a serious defect, such an intense defect. (3:29) So my story then becomes, well, it's a life-threatening cancer, but it's also disfiguring, right? (3:35) So that's when I started kind of trying to deal with all of that and absorbing all of that at one time.

Marcus Arredondo

(3:44) So there are so many things I want to ask you, and especially with respect to your support system, sort of rebuilding yourself. (3:54) But at its core, I think what I was so struck by in your story is this, I have found this very common among a lot of guests on this show, a lot of high achievers, many of the people I respect, which is that I don't know if it's hitting rock bottom, but it is a complete evisceration of who you thought you were. (4:21) And seldom, if ever, have I encountered it where it's purposefully done that.(4:26) It's something that has been inadvertent, something that's been outside of your control. (4:31) And by virtue of being outside of your control, there is an element of, it's not quite detachment, but it's almost of a foregoing the inevitable. (4:47) Something that you can no longer, you can only control how you're responding to it, but the force is so great and so beyond what you can control.(4:58) You simply have to respond to it. (4:59) You cannot influence it. (5:01) And in your book, you talk a lot about the rebuilding.(5:05) I want to talk about rebar and sort of your framing, because I think it's a really interesting distillation of what I think, in some ways, it might be like a different interpretation of maybe the seven stages of grief or five stages of grief. (5:19) I think there's some relationship there, but to some degree, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, I couldn't help but think as I was reading, it was a little bit of the death of your former self. (5:30) You viewed yourself as having success at the bars with women and having been viewed a certain way.(5:38) And certainly that influences your ability to view yourself. (5:41) But what really, the bottom line question to me is, and I'd like to explore this further, how do you identify what is at the core and noise versus signal? (5:58) Because when you've been completely obliterated from who you used to be, who you viewed yourself to be, you have to pick up the pieces from inside out.(6:12) If you're fortunate, it sounds like you were in many cases by having a good community, having a faith-based system to allow you to restore. (6:20) In some ways, creating blood flow to your face is a little bit of an analogy of maybe the resupplementation of your own source of life, so to speak. (6:31) But how do you start that?(6:33) How would you advise someone who's had the wave just completely knock them on their ass? (6:41) Where do you start?

Terry Healey

(6:44) Well, I often talk about my survival kit, Marcus. (6:48) And for me, that was really what helped me through the day-to-day ordeal of what I was dealing with, which was really relying on this foundation of faith that I had. (7:00) It gave me courage.(7:01) It gave me strength when I prayed. (7:04) I also practiced gratitude, though. (7:06) And I think that that's a really important element.(7:08) I think a lot of people get into a mode of, why me? (7:11) And they experience a lot of emotions that make it difficult for them to make progress. (7:17) Totally natural.(7:19) And we should all embrace our emotions. (7:22) But at some point, you also have to step back, I think, and say, hey, wait a second. (7:27) There's a million things left that I can do that I should be grateful for.(7:32) It could have been worse. (7:34) I mean, if you've read my book, you know that I was really concerned about losing my eye. (7:40) That, to me, was the biggest thing with my face that I didn't want to lose.(7:45) That function was so important to me. (7:49) And so, I was grateful for that, despite whatever else happened. (7:54) But I tried to hone in on things that I was grateful for.(7:57) And I think that puts you in a positive mindset. (8:00) And it makes everything a little bit easier to cope with, to keep hope. (8:06) And when you're positive, and in my case, when I had prayer and faith, I think those things combined gave me a lot of hope.(8:15) But, you know, let's be real here. (8:17) It wasn't just me. (8:20) You know, it was, as you alluded to earlier, it was a lot about my support system.(8:24) I had incredible people around me. (8:26) I also had the ability, fortunately, to reflect and take note of conversations I had, take note of things people said and did, and try to reflect on those and try to learn from them. (8:44) And so, you know, I think rock bottom was something that I never anticipated coming, as you say.(8:53) It sort of came out of left field, but again, something that I was grateful for. (9:00) So, there's a whole bunch of things, right, that I employ in my survival kit. (9:04) We talked about a couple of them, but I was also somebody that was very focused and goal-oriented.(9:09) That helped along the way to help me rebuild confidence. (9:14) I was somebody that focused on balance, having outlets, things that helped me cope day-to-day, get the stressors off me, work out in the morning, play guitar at night, whatever it was to get my mind off the anxiety that I was dealing with, right? (9:31) Group therapy was big, and positive imaging was big for me.(9:35) So, a lot of these tools combined helped me really get through it.

Marcus Arredondo

(9:42) The idea, I mean, look, you were 20 years old at the time, right, when this first happened, and you had 30 surgeries over seven years, correct? (9:52) Correct. (9:53) So, that's not just faith, that is prolonged, disciplined faith.(9:59) How do you advise people maintain that? (10:04) Because it's beyond just energy, right? (10:06) I mean, I can only imagine, and again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if I were in those shoes, I know for a fact there would be multiple days, if not weeks and months consecutively, where I just would think, what am I doing?(10:20) Is this worth it? (10:22) I guess, what alternative do I have? (10:24) But to maintain the positivity that on the other side of this, there will be prosperity, and even to potentially find joy in that situation, do you have feedback on maybe how we can apply that into less dire situations, right?(10:43) Where we can implement a more sustainable form of input, contributing to our own perceptions of the reality we're given, so as to generate greater experiential value in those moments and onward, to build on top of them.

Terry Healey

(11:02) Yeah. (11:03) So, don't get me wrong, I struggled for those six, seven years that you referred to, right? (11:09) I think things got worse and worse for me because I kept having surgery to reconstruct my face.(11:16) That was the attempt to bring it back. (11:18) I had this, not a promise, but hopeful words from my main surgeon that was, we're going to get you cured of this cancer, and we're going to get you reconstructed back to who you were before. (11:31) I'll tell you, that gave me hope that was really important for me during that time frame, because I kept believing that, okay, I'm going to get through this, even though I'm feeling worse and worse and worse about who I am as a person, my identity, my self-confidence and self-esteem was deteriorating.(11:50) I got to the point where I didn't want to go to those bars anymore at all, right? (11:55) It wasn't a fun experience. (11:56) I avoided small children and groups because it made me uncomfortable, but I think that I was (12:04) fortunate to, as I said, have people in my life that spoke certain words, said certain things that (12:13) kept me on track, but it was really a blessing that came at the end of reconstruction from someone (12:22) who spoke pretty tough words to me about my weaknesses that really highlighted that, wow, (12:29) this isn't about, I don't have any control. (12:33) You mentioned this, right? (12:34) I didn't have any control over this reconstruction.(12:37) I didn't know what the outcome was going to be. (12:40) What I could control was what I identified from that conversation, which is that I had to rebuild from the inside out.

Marcus Arredondo

(12:47) Well, let's talk about that. (12:48) I think that's Dina you're referring to, right? (12:50) Yeah, exactly.(12:51) So share that story because I think feedback is a gift despite the fact that sometimes we may not be ready to receive it. (13:02) So can you share with the audience what that conversation, how you met Dina, how that relationship unfolded, and then what was unearthed?

Terry Healey

(13:10) Yeah, so this is at a stage in 1989. (13:14) So four years after that major procedure that I talked about, I was going back and forth to Chicago to have a series of six reconstructive procedures from the best nasal reconstructive surgeon in the U.S. supposedly at that time. (13:29) I went back there on the sixth procedure expecting everything to come together because I really didn't look very good going into that procedure.(13:36) I thought, okay, I guess it's all going to come together this time. (13:39) Well, it didn't. (13:41) And when I looked at myself in the mirror when they took the bandages off, I was devastated, actually.(13:47) I was just thinking to myself, oh my God, what's happened here? (13:53) And just fortuitously, I was walking down the hallway of my room. (14:00) I was all alone, right, because I was in a foreign place as a 25-year-old.(14:04) I was by myself in Chicago having the surgery. (14:07) And here comes this girl the other way. (14:09) She's in there for cervical cancer, but her prognosis is really good.(14:13) She smiled, and we started a conversation. (14:15) Long story short is that we from that hospital stay over those next few days while I waited for things to heal, and she stayed in there. (14:25) We got to know each other really well.(14:27) And she showed an interest in me that I hadn't felt from a female in years, honestly. (14:33) I'd never believed I could find somebody who would be interested in me. (14:38) She ended up taking this interest.(14:41) We began to see each other. (14:43) She comes out to California. (14:45) We go up to the Napa Valley for a long weekend.(14:48) And I'll never forget the winery we're sitting at, Marcus, and we've got our glasses of wine. (14:53) We're looking at each other. (14:54) And she just looks at me, and she says, Terry, you know, you have a lot of issues that I can't help you with.(15:02) You need constant reassurance. (15:04) I can't give it to you. (15:06) And that was the light bulb, right?(15:08) I mean, obviously, it was devastating. (15:12) But it was the light bulb that went off at the end of that weekend that made me reflect and start to think about how am I going to move my life forward. (15:21) And I realized right then and there that I couldn't control this surgery.(15:26) I had to focus on rebuilding from the inside. (15:30) And so that was a complete about face, right? (15:33) I took a 180 and said, I'm done with surgery.(15:37) I'm moving on to rebuild myself. (15:40) How am I going to do it? (15:41) I don't know.(15:42) I over time kind of figured out maybe I just need to talk to people. (15:46) Maybe I need to go to group therapy. (15:48) So that was kind of the beginning for me of coming back up the other side of my downfall.

Marcus Arredondo

(15:56) There's this practice that the Stoics would use where they would wear threadbare clothing during certain stints to assimilate more into the homelessness community or to appear in a certain way. (16:14) And it's not the same thing as what you went through, but it was sort of functions in the same way. (16:19) I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of memento mori, which is that, remember, we will die.(16:25) This idea of what you have. (16:28) And I think the exercise in itself by practicing the exclusions that you might endure by being in public viewed in a different light, you end up developing a different relationship with the externalities and how others perceive you in what role and value you ascribe to those perceptions and that feedback. (16:54) And I think about this from the lens of even a dad.(16:57) I've got a three year old and he's still very young, but he's just now starting to understand and experiment a little bit with public perception, how people are seeing him. (17:12) And I'm also seeing a little bit of an embarrassment when something happens, a shyness. (17:16) He doesn't like being made fun of, right?(17:18) These little elements. (17:20) And that's the chipping away of innocence in a lot of ways. (17:23) And it's the reality of the world.(17:26) But I am very conscious of how, because if all of me here, I know I'm digressing a little bit, but my thought process here is, as I'm viewing him, one cannot teach something you haven't mastered yourself. (17:42) And so I'm looking at him and I'm thinking, how do I instill a sense of indelible internal fortitude that is impervious to at least negative outside perceptions without invalidating them altogether? (18:03) Because there are some external validations who doesn't like having the attention of someone that's interested in you or having success in business where the attraction to your charisma or personality, it can be really addicting.(18:18) Those can be valuable. (18:20) But by that same token, if you start to determine your self-worth from that, it becomes a slippery slope, a tiger's tail that you can never really get off because then you fear being eaten by the once you fall off. (18:35) And so in some cases, what I think happened to you was extraordinarily unfortunate.(18:43) But by the other side, I find myself really appreciating the opportunity you had to rebuild from such a soulful, intrinsic place. (18:56) And so from the lens of a dad looking at a son, you looking at yourself at 25 years old, which to be honest, you're still a kid in a lot of ways, 25. (19:07) I can only imagine what your parents were thinking while you were having to navigate this and find your own footing because to happen in 20, the delta between who you are at 20 and 25 is pretty staggering.(19:20) Not just the fact that it's a 25% increase in your age, but those five years are really significant in how you develop as a person. (19:29) And this will segue into identity and purpose because I want to talk about that as well. (19:32) But how do you view that from somebody who's experienced it, come out the other side, has developed a new perspective, have received input from somebody like Dina, and then having a successful long-term marriage from a woman who's been a godsend to accompany you in the journey that you're going through.(19:59) How do you rebuild from that point? (20:02) Do you have advice to your younger self on what to focus on and how to avoid those elements you shouldn't be focusing on?

Terry Healey

(20:11) Yeah. (20:11) I mean, I think that first of all, I would say, I say this to a lot of people, is embrace change because it is constant in life. (20:27) You're going to have issues that are going to just come your way that you have no control over and your life is going to get moved and shifted based on those things that happen.(20:38) And you've got to learn that if I look at my life, because it's been 40 years, I would say that that trajectory of how my life has gone has been upward, but changes along the way make you kind of step back a little bit and regroup and restart. (21:03) It's kind of like a stock chart in a way. (21:05) There's upward momentum, but there's sort of some spikes down as you absorb and digest that.(21:12) But I will say that every change I've ever encountered professionally or personally has resulted in improvement in my life, greater happiness, greater purpose. (21:27) And so part of it is just allowing yourself to naturally absorb things and sort of live with who you are because you've got to be authentic to yourself. (21:44) But there are a lot of tools.(21:46) I think we all have that capacity to build resilience. (21:51) And it's not that any one thing is going to derail us. (21:58) I keep going back to the positive mindset because I think that when you start with gratitude, everything becomes better.(22:08) But no doubt what you're talking about with your son and stuff and you start to see little things chipping away. (22:14) I talk about that in the book, right? (22:15) Where kids are tough and you get criticized and things happen to you where it starts to chip away and you don't really realize it, right?(22:28) So I think you're a great dad for being perceptive and watching those things. (22:35) And I think because of that, as a parent, you have a very important role to play in helping shape this boy in the future. (22:45) You're his support system, right?(22:47) He's lucky to have you. (22:51) And I think that we can't just do it on our own. (22:53) So I think that your ability to be perceptive and help him along the way is what's going to help guide him toward more success and self-confidence and self-esteem, if that answers your question.

Marcus Arredondo

(23:09) It does. (23:10) I want to use it as a springboard about, because you're alluding a little bit to progress and future and the stock value going up. (23:17) And you mentioned something which reminded me of a quote, a Dow to Chin quote that said, when I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.(23:24) When I let go of what I have, I receive what I need. (23:28) And I want to go to some quotes in your book about that very specific thing. (23:33) And I appreciate you bringing up this Be Yourself, Future Self Now by Ben Hardy, who I got a lot of value out of that book as well.(23:44) And it's talking about your future self. (23:46) I'll read this in a second. (23:47) But at its core, I think it's talking about purpose and identity and how related I think those things are.(23:54) And I think having a more fluid identity as it relates to a non-attachment to, I felt I've gotten stuck when I became too affixed to the identity I had at the current moment, rather than being open to developing the identity I'll become. (24:10) And when that identity I'll become starts to become a little bit more nebulous, although not lacking clarity, it is something a little bit more into the future. (24:19) It gives me a little bit more freedom to sort of adapt and negate different parts of not to be too attached to these characteristics that we have.(24:30) So let me just read this. (24:32) And I want to get your feedback here. (24:34) But having a purpose may indeed be the secret to having a longer life.(24:37) In his book, Be Your Future Self Now, Dr. Ben Hardy shares some interesting data. (24:41) Quote, having purpose can prolong and sustain life far beyond seemingly natural life expectancy. (24:47) In the 18th century, the average life expectancy in America was less than 40 years.(24:53) Yet most of America's founding fathers lived at least 20 years longer. (24:59) Several, including Ben Franklin, Tom Jefferson, John Adams, lived into their 80s. (25:05) That would be like three friends living to age 110 today when 75 is the current life expectancy.(25:13) Purpose provides an unparalleled life force, vibrancy, and zest. (25:18) You also highlight that openness leads to hopefulness. (25:22) So I think those are related, the openness and hopefulness.(25:25) But I wondered if you can just sort of bring us into your world of how you defined purpose and identity and how you used that.

Terry Healey

(25:32) Yeah. (25:32) So I think as I learned to address those words from Dina, those tough words, right, part of that was going into group therapy, where I started to talk with other people. (25:45) And for the first time, I found the courage to share my vulnerabilities.(25:50) And what I realized in that process, Marcus, is that I was helping people that hadn't even thought about some of the things that I was talking about. (26:00) Now, I'm a pretty young guy. (26:02) I didn't think of myself as having any wisdom, right?(26:05) This is just life experience. (26:07) But I think the joy of seeing somebody who walked into that group session practically crying and seeing that woman laugh and smile brought incredible joy to me. (26:23) And it's like, wow, there is something to what I'm going through.(26:29) And so I think I learned at a fairly young age that even though I had a career in high tech, in sales and marketing, right, that in the back of my mind, my purpose was really to help other people deal with challenges. (26:46) And if I could instill something in them from my experience to help them along the way, there's nothing better than that. (26:54) So I think that it just, it renews, renews probably not the right word.(27:02) It helps you identify yourself as somebody that you're, I think, more proud of as a person. (27:09) You feel better about yourself. (27:10) I started to look back and say, you know, if I had just gone down this track that I was on in college where everything was easy, where would I be?(27:20) You know, I might be a lawyer doing something that was important. (27:26) I don't know. (27:27) Maybe I was making changes that were important to society.(27:30) Maybe I wasn't, but I didn't think that I would have as much benefit as what I got from my experience about, you know, the empathy that we gain when we experience something significantly difficult in our life, the gratitude, the perspective, the life perspective. (27:50) It just helps put everything into an easier space. (27:56) You start to look in the mirror and you say, I don't need to stress today.(28:00) I've been through so much. (28:03) I'm going to put it in perspective.

Marcus Arredondo

(28:06) So a couple of things. (28:07) I'm going to read another part of your book. (28:09) It's about making a choice each day to never indulge self-pity and self-doubt, but to fight and continue to seek the light.(28:15) It's called Resilience. (28:16) Learning to adapt, bouncing back, and discovering you can grow from your experience with adversity is what resilience is all about. (28:23) Post-traumatic growth can give us a clearer perspective and a greater appreciation for life and spiritual development.(28:29) It becomes easier to find silver linings in every adversity. (28:34) I think, if I'm not mistaken, post-traumatic growth was Kazimierz Dabrowski, who was a Polish psychologist. (28:44) He had actually written a little bit about those who had experienced the Holocaust becoming better people as a result of it.(28:52) I found a lot of what you were saying echoed. (28:55) I'm going to go on and I'll land the plane here. (28:59) You referenced Martin Seligman.(29:01) The question is, how do we change the way we look at adversity? (29:04) It involves reframing. (29:06) Let's say we have three beliefs about setbacks.(29:08) Whenever a bad thing happens, it's our fault, number one. (29:11) Number two, everything will always go wrong. (29:13) Number three, setbacks will never end.(29:16) Martin Seligman calls them the three Ps, personalization, pervasiveness, and permanence. (29:22) Reframing means we look at events as impersonal and isolated incidents and temporary. (29:28) I only bring this up because I'm reading a book called Chatter by Ethan Cross, where he talks a little bit about the voices in your head.(29:36) It's actually exclusively about the voices in your head. (29:38) What he does reference is the statistical benefit of journaling or reframing it from a third-person or second-person perspective. (29:49) Rather than saying, I went through this.(29:51) I'm feeling bad about this. (29:54) It's Terry went through this. (29:56) Terry did this.(29:58) He did this. (30:00) I started to experiment a little bit with it. (30:02) I found a lot of value in it.(30:04) I'm just curious if you see the relationship in terms of the reframing in how you look at your own experience. (30:10) I have trouble ruminating. (30:13) That rumination, which is a chatter, continues to go on and on and on.(30:17) What that disallows is the ability to seek that perspective. (30:23) To me, a lot of what you reference as reframing seems like perspective related to what your involvement was, the fact that it can still be an isolated incident, even though you may have a series of isolated incidents that occur in short sequence. (30:41) I think you know where I'm going with this, but I'm curious how you view reframing.

Terry Healey

(30:46) I think it's a lot about having that growth mindset. (30:51) Instead of looking at an incident, a challenge as, why me? (30:58) It's, what can I learn from this?(31:01) It's a completely different way of looking at what you're experiencing and opening yourself up. (31:09) I think reframing is... (31:12) Seligman also talks a lot about the fact that it's temporary.(31:17) Whatever's happening to you, this is not a permanent thing that's going to last forever. (31:21) If you can keep reminding yourself of that and think about that growth mindset of, well, there must be something here that I'm going to learn from. (31:33) If you can believe that you'll end up in a better place.(31:39) I think that that's really what life is all about anyway. (31:45) We're all trying to grow. (31:48) We want to grow.(31:49) Our lives are changing. (31:51) Our priorities change. (31:55) That's why they talk about wisdom as something that older people have.(32:01) When you see a young soul with wisdom, you always wonder, God, where did that kid get that? (32:07) I think reframing is really important in terms of helping people out of their own way.

Marcus Arredondo

(32:16) I want to talk about getting out of your own way too because you talk about liberation. (32:23) There's a scene in your book where you decided to go out for a run. (32:28) For the first time, you took your shirt off to go on that jog.(32:32) I felt you. (32:34) It was a really special thing to read that you lost track of time. (32:41) You didn't notice anyone looking at you.(32:43) I think that was an analogy or a parallel to what you might have been experiencing professionally when you started to put yourself out there more. (32:54) You started talking about some of the work you were doing with Oracle and other high-name clientele that exposed you to more and more business in your consulting world. (33:06) It's a Seinfeld joke, but they say that people are more fearful of public speaking than they are of death, which means that they would prefer to be in the casket than be given the eulogy.(33:25) I just want to explore a little bit of what that means because I think there's a direct correlation between that liberation and that vulnerability. (33:35) It's maybe just the ownership of that vulnerability or just the letting it out there. (33:40) You talk a little bit when your first book got released how there are photographs in there.(33:45) You saw your first distribution, the box that you were opening it. (33:51) It was dawning on you that there were photographs of what you went through just out there floating in the world. (33:59) There's a dauntingness.(34:01) I can't relate to that, but there's a little bit of a dauntingness that I had when I started this podcast that this is going to be out there in perpetuity. (34:09) What advice? (34:12) How did you find that vulnerability?(34:15) People talk about it being courage, but I think there's more than just courage to confront it. (34:20) It's actually willpower and discipline and a purpose. (34:24) There's a why behind that vulnerability.(34:27) I might be wrong, but how do you find that? (34:29) How would you encourage somebody to identify that liberation? (34:32) How has your life been different as a result of being able to take your shirt off again?

Terry Healey

(34:38) I think taking risk is a really important thing. (34:42) Sometimes you just have to take a chance and take a risk. (34:46) Go with what your gut tells you.(34:49) I think that sharing your vulnerabilities with people, quickly you begin to realize that everybody has some kind of a story. (35:02) Sometimes you know people for many years and you don't really know deep down what might have happened to them because you guys have never had a conversation that goes deep. (35:15) I'm a big proponent of sharing with people, asking questions, asking people about themselves.(35:24) People generally like to talk about themselves anyway. (35:28) When you can find common ground with an experience, it opens people up in ways that I think is really liberating. (35:39) I think that for me, finding the courage to be vulnerable, to share these things.(35:48) I mean I speak all the time and I share this story. (35:52) Sometimes people are shocked. (35:55) They're going, really?(35:56) God, you don't look that bad or you couldn't have looked that bad. (36:00) It's like, no, that's the way I felt. (36:03) If I don't share with you exactly how I felt, then you're not really going to get my real story and understand how I was able to kind of come back because I took that risk.(36:16) One of the most liberating moments and transforming events was spending that time with other people that I didn't even know, Marcus. (36:27) I think this is really important. (36:29) I'm just going to touch on it for a second.(36:31) I talked about support from family and friends and how important that is. (36:35) Finding your support system, people that you trust is really important. (36:39) But there's one downside to it, right?(36:41) When you're going through something difficult, a lot of times your closest allies will come to you and say, oh, you're great. (36:49) You're so strong. (36:51) You're going to be fine, right?(36:52) They say these kinds of things that are positive and maybe they make you feel better. (36:58) But for me anyway, I started to question like, well, of course they're going to say that, you know, this is my family. (37:05) But when you go to an environment like a support group where you don't know any of these people and they're honest, they share honest feelings with you.(37:18) And that to me was really, really an amazing growth experience because it was connecting with people on a whole different level and helping me really understand where I needed to spend time working on myself, right? (37:35) God, I didn't know I was that insecure. (37:38) Really?(37:38) I'm that insecure? (37:40) You know, and thank God that I got those messages because as you know, that's what enables you to have success in your life. (37:51) You have to have self-confidence.(37:53) You got to feel good about yourself or your life is going to be pretty difficult.

Marcus Arredondo

(37:59) I keep going back to this, but how do you find that? (38:02) And as I'm thinking about vulnerability, you know, I think the fear of being vulnerable stems from, in large part, the fear of being judged. (38:13) And that fear of being judged is directly connected to an insecurity.(38:20) And that all has to do with intrinsic value versus external value. (38:24) I mean, sort of a cyclical theme that I keep going back to, but there's that by virtue of being, and I can relate to that public, not public, but a different environment where there's just a high degree of credibility because of the truth value that these people are giving. (38:41) And I want to talk about family in a second, including the ones and friends and support system that were absent and sort of the removal of that, because I think that's a really important thing to discuss.(38:54) But as it relates to vulnerability and finding that courage, you know, it's like you take that risk and you sort of identify greater security by virtue of taking that risk. (39:04) You hope, how do you continue that momentum to actually climb out of the insecurity hole? (39:10) I don't know if you ever really do, but maybe it's shallower or more easily overcomable.(39:16) But what did you find effective in being able to not just put yourself into vulnerable situations within those groups, but even more publicly, like in your consulting business, in your books, on camera, you've had multiple interviews on several networks. (39:36) What advice would you give to somebody that's going through their own crisis or even better how to build it from scratch to sort of mitigate against the crisis?

Terry Healey

(39:47) Yeah. (39:47) I mean, you alluded to this earlier that, you know, when that first book came out, I didn't really anticipate the opportunities that might come from it because I didn't really think people would start calling me to present to them as in front of a large group of people, because to your earlier point, I always felt like I'd be judged in front of a group of people. (40:11) I didn't feel good about myself.(40:12) And then that would just make me feel even worse if I didn't perform well in front of an audience. (40:17) So I got laser focused when these opportunities started coming up. (40:21) I told myself, I have to respond to this.(40:23) I can't ignore this. (40:25) This is an opportunity for me to share and grow in the process. (40:32) And so for me, it was all about preparation.(40:36) I was somebody that got super prepped and that really helped build my confidence. (40:41) So I think that's always, I share different examples of that in the book, right? (40:45) But preparedness is really key.(40:49) And I think that setting goals, single goals to say, this is a challenge I have to address. (40:58) How am I going to go about it? (41:00) What are the steps I'm going to take?(41:02) And not getting overwhelmed by five, six, seven goals or priorities, right? (41:08) Because as I always say, it's like, if you've got five priorities, you really don't have any, right? (41:14) And that might be an exaggeration, but I'm much more about find the most pressing challenge, focus on that one.(41:22) So that's kind of the approach that I took. (41:25) And I think that really helped build my confidence back because it forced me, it put me in a reactive situation where I said, hey, I've got, I've got to present in front of this group in a month. (41:39) How am I going to present myself in a way that I'm going to feel good about myself?(41:43) Because today I might not feel so good about myself. (41:47) And that was great therapy for me, you know? (41:51) So I combined it with other things too, right?(41:54) Visualizations, part of that process, but yeah. (41:57) I don't know if that answers your question.

Marcus Arredondo

(41:59) It does, but how would you maybe take it outside the uniqueness of your own situation relative to your speeches and consulting and apply it maybe to, yeah, I don't know, a teenager, maybe fighting bullying, for example, or, you know, something to that effect. (42:16) Is there something more universal? (42:19) How do you prepare for a bully fight?(42:21) I mean, you know, is there something else that you think would be helpful in those types of circumstances?

Terry Healey

(42:27) Yeah. (42:28) Bullying is really, really tough, right? (42:31) Because I see it, I hear about it, I watch it.(42:36) And some of the things that happen are just incredibly brutal. (42:41) And I think that people generally have, you know, different approaches to how they want to deal with people that interact with them in a certain way. (42:53) Some will just say, I'm going to ignore that and put that aside because I don't believe what they said.(42:59) And I'm just going to focus on on continuing on versus saying, well, maybe what is, why am I the source of this? (43:09) Why am I the recipient of this bullying? (43:12) And is there something that I can learn from that about myself?(43:16) And I think that if you reflect a little bit and think about maybe what's bringing that on, you can come up with some ideas and some ways to better cope and handle that situation. (43:34) So I'm big on reflection. (43:37) I think that that's a huge thing.(43:41) And I know that when you're young, maybe it's not quite as easy, but if you can just take an incident and step back from it and really kind of peel the onion back on it and try to figure out what actually transpired there. (43:55) Why is this happening? (43:57) What, is there anything that I have control over?(44:00) And those are the things I should focus on. (44:02) If these are just people that do this to everybody, then I just have to ignore them. (44:09) But maybe there's something that you can learn from it and act on.(44:13) I mean, I'll tell you just, you know, to not to toot my own horn, but I worked on this so hard about rebuilding my confidence that what's amazing to me, Marcus, is that when I was in my twenties and I went to that party and there was a group of kids, you know, with the parents and the kids were staring at me uncomfortably, that was really difficult for me. (44:36) It happened all the time. (44:38) But you know what, as I got older and I more confident with myself, that stopped.(44:43) Like, I go into a Starbucks now and there's two kids with their mom. (44:48) In the old days, those two kids would have been like pointing and like, mom, you know, like, help me understand. (44:57) And today that never happens.(44:59) Why does that never happen? (45:00) Well, I actually could argue, Marcus, that I look worse, right? (45:03) Because I'm balding, my scars are more visible, whatever.(45:08) Right. (45:10) The color of where I had radiation is more red, but it doesn't happen anymore. (45:16) So it's all in how you carry yourself.(45:18) So, I mean, there's no free lunch, right? (45:21) You do have to work at it. (45:23) And that's why I think, you know, you talk about being a father and being so observant.(45:28) And that's why I think parents are, you know, they have a big role to play and to monitor this, because there's ways that you can help as well. (45:38) For that child who might be struggling, if you're paying attention and you're alert and attentive to what's happening with your child, which is so important today, far more probably than it ever was, right? (45:50) When I was growing up, you could play in the woods all day.(45:54) My mother and father never knew where I was, you know, nobody cared. (45:58) They didn't have to. (45:59) When they rang the bell at 530 for dinner, I came home.

Marcus Arredondo

(46:02) Yeah.

Terry Healey

(46:03) It's a different world.

Marcus Arredondo

(46:05) So speaking of your parents, I think you do and your brother, you talk a lot about their support, but I'm curious, something that really stood out to me was how silent some of the closer friends prior to the diagnosis sort of vanished, you know, how they sort of weren't there. (46:27) And, you know, like, this is sort of, you know, the silver lining in events like this to me is because it really forces you to look at things that you might have otherwise viewed. (46:38) Having gone through that, how do you advise people sort of trim the fat from their own life?(46:44) How do you view? (46:46) Because I think it's absolutely critical in crisis situations, but it's no less critical in your normal day to day life, because I think it really sort of not only informs how you're viewing the world, but also how you perceive yourself, how you attack identity and purpose and your future. (47:07) What do you advise people look for in those circumstances?(47:11) And how do you advise them remove themselves gracefully? (47:17) Because, you know, burn bridges, I'm not a fan of. (47:21) You don't want to hurt people's feelings, but at the same time, as you so clearly state, you've got to put your own gas mask on first or your oxygen mask on first, right?

Terry Healey

(47:31) Yeah, I'd say first and foremost, you know, surround yourself with people that you trust that make you feel good. (47:39) That's really important. (47:40) But there are toxic relationships too, that aren't just things that you can ignore easily.(47:47) You can't just say, oh, I'm just going to stay away from that person because sometimes these other people have a personality type that is going to be very aggressive and they're going to keep calling you and keep saying things to you that might not make you feel good. (48:04) And so, you know, not everybody wants to go to therapy, right? (48:10) I'm not a therapist.(48:12) I'm not a doctor. (48:13) I didn't have the answers. (48:14) So, I did go to therapy over stuff that we're talking about right now to say, how do I deal with this kind of situation?(48:22) And, you know, what I learned is there are certain types of people that you can't, you'll never change them. (48:29) They are who they are. (48:30) And so, you owe it to yourself to find what are the coping strategies that I'm going to use.(48:36) And sometimes that's just limiting your involvement to the extent possible. (48:43) Other times it's just, it's easier, right? (48:46) This person that just says negative things all the time.(48:50) It's just, you know what? (48:51) I'm just not going to respond. (48:54) I'm not going to meet them again.(48:57) And they will get the point and they will disappear. (49:00) And those are much easier, right? (49:03) Not everything's that simple.(49:05) So yeah, it takes some work, but, again, like I said before, there's no free lunch. (49:10) I mean, you do have to work at some of this stuff to make your life better. (49:15) But I also say that even though it might sound like work, I think it's a gift at the end of the day because it enables you to live a healthier, happier, more purposeful life.

Marcus Arredondo

(49:27) So, you know, I can't help but think it's not just friends too, though. (49:31) There's probably, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I am curious about this, even family members who may not be outright negative. (49:39) I mean, the outright negative people who may not be aggressive and may not be family members seems like the easiest or the most simple to sort of extricate yourself from.(49:50) But have you had to encounter maybe the more subtle virus type, if not family member, close relationship where, you know, it's not quite so clear. (50:09) You just sort of know that I don't feel right in this environment. (50:15) How have you successfully dealt with that?

Terry Healey

(50:18) Yeah, I think that, you know, that's one benefit of age, right? (50:23) We start to have these common experiences over time. (50:26) We say, you know, this one feels different.(50:31) This one doesn't feel right. (50:32) This relationship reminds me of something that I experienced a long time ago. (50:38) So, yeah, it's hard, and I think every situation is a little bit different.(50:48) To your point earlier, you know, you always want to be kind, I think, with yourself and with others and find, you know, ways to extricate yourselves that don't create a difficult situation, an argument, a situation that becomes incredibly uncomfortable because that creates a lot of stress for you as well if you're a sensitive person. (51:17) So, yeah, I just work at it and try to understand the personality type. (51:22) So, I do a lot of homework, right, because there are passive-aggressive types that I dealt with all the time in my work life, right?(51:31) Well, how do you deal with that, right? (51:34) So, that's a different, that's sort of a different deal than somebody that might be, you know, a complete narcissist that is impossible to deal with. (51:47) And then there's the people that just are insensitive, that don't really, I don't think, have a grasp on really maybe what they're saying, and nor are they really cognizant or aware of, they're not really that present, right?(52:05) And so, those are the people that I probably don't want to spend a lot of time with. (52:10) How do I extricate myself from them? (52:13) I find ways to do that by just, you know, sort of removing myself slowly over time.(52:21) And I think a lot of people get the idea and don't really have an issue with it.

Marcus Arredondo

(52:26) Yeah. (52:26) What ways do you think, you know, what are you most proud of relative to who you are today that may not have existed when you were 20?

Terry Healey

(52:38) I think what I'm most proud of is really the person that I've become in terms of, I think I practice kindness constantly. (52:53) I think that that's so important. (52:55) I think that, you know, I think a lot about what people are going through because of what I went through, and though mine was visible, oftentimes it's invisible.(53:07) And so, don't judge, be kind, because no one really knows what's going on inside of other people. (53:15) So, I think, you know, that's first and foremost, practice kind, I think is so important. (53:22) And I think that, you know, again, the blessing of what I went through helped me become more empathetic, helped me really become somebody that had a lot of gratitude and just has a better life perspective.(53:39) So, I'm more willing to step out and help people when I can. (53:44) Can I just tell a quick story? (53:47) So, it's really funny.(53:49) I mean, practice being kind, right? (53:51) I was at a store where there's, you know, you fill up your water bottles, you go into these shops, and it's water, you fill up your jugs, and you take them home. (54:04) So, you know, I'd go in there, I'd get my three gallon jug, put it in my car.(54:07) And one day I do this, and here's a mom with her probably 13-year-old daughter. (54:13) And they've got this cart that they're rolling, and they've got like 10 or 12 jugs of water, empty bottles. (54:20) And I see them when I'm in there.(54:22) And then when I come out to my car, I'm sitting on my phone going through email. (54:26) So, they finish, and it turns out they're right next to me. (54:31) And they're trying to load this stuff in the car, and they are so frustrated.(54:35) She can't lift it, all this stuff. (54:37) Anyway, so I think to myself, okay, I'll just offer to help, right? (54:41) So, I offered to help, and so I helped them.(54:45) It took me all of two minutes. (54:47) It was no difficulty. (54:50) And as I back up, and as I'm driving away, the daughter's just like, thank you so much.(54:56) Like, somehow I made her day. (54:58) And I thought, wow, that's just naturally just being kind to somebody that can't do something, doesn't have the capacity to do something. (55:06) So, just be aware of those kinds of things that are out there, because they make you feel good too, right?

Marcus Arredondo

(55:12) Absolutely. (55:12) Absolutely. (55:14) There's a couple of other questions that I wanted to ask that I found myself wondering.(55:18) Why in 1991 did you decide that was it? (55:20) No more surgeries after seven years? (55:23) Was it just enough?(55:25) What happened at that point?

Terry Healey

(55:28) It was Dina's tough words, right? (55:31) It was Dina saying, your issues are not your physical ones. (55:36) Your issues are deep, and you need to recognize that.(55:41) And that was literally the last procedure I had, that sixth procedure in Chicago. (55:47) I didn't have any more. (55:49) I mean, it wasn't an instant thing, Mark.(55:51) It's not like I just stepped away and said, all right, that's it, I'm done. (55:54) But I reflected on it, and that was it. (55:58) That was the turning point.(56:00) That was the point at which I realized I could control my destiny by focusing on rebuilding what was inside, instead of focusing on trying to be this guy that I used to be. (56:11) Yeah. (56:12) Which takes us back to the beginning, right?

Marcus Arredondo

(56:14) Absolutely. (56:15) And I had one other question about Dr. Z, who sort of stood out in my mind while you were telling the story, who was a special doctor. (56:23) I'm hoping you can give some context for him.(56:26) But by virtue of what he did, he had to see several of his patients pass away. (56:32) You talk about it in light of him having outlets and the like, but at least the perception I had about him was that he had an extraordinary bedside manner. (56:41) He was a very kind and generous person.(56:44) He could instill optimism without being false in what he said to you. (56:50) Can you just talk about him a little bit? (56:51) Because I sort of wanted to meet him from how you described him.

Terry Healey

(56:56) Greatest guy. (56:57) Greatest guy in the world. (56:59) He actually is nearing 80 now and he called me about six months ago, sort of out of the blue.(57:05) He saw something on LinkedIn and we had a great conversation. (57:08) But yeah, Z was this incredible guy who arguably was a guy that had vision in the tumor board meeting to realize that, hey, this could go a pretty dark way. (57:22) I'm going to make sure that this kid has what he needs.(57:25) So number one, he pays attention, but he pays attention to patients. (57:31) So I'd go in there and honestly, I was not in a good way because I had to go see him all the time because my denture had to be adjusted, had to be modified because tissue was shrinking from radiation. (57:46) And he would just look at me and he'd size me up really quick and he'd go, Terry, you got to just chill out, man.(57:55) Stop. (57:56) Stop getting so worried about all this stuff. (57:59) You're a 21 year old guy.(58:00) You got to live your life. (58:02) I want you to go out and have beers with your buddies. (58:05) Just just live your life.(58:07) And he knew I liked to play hoops. (58:09) So, you know, he's like, let me build you a mask. (58:12) Let me let me try to build something that provides support structure, you know, but these are things that many doctors would never even consider thinking about.(58:20) Right. (58:20) It's like this wasn't even something that he had done before, but he improvised and he built me a mask. (58:27) And but he really taught me about balance and he really helped me think about outlets in my life and the importance of living really.(58:39) Yeah, because I kind of felt like I had gotten to a point where it really wasn't living. (58:43) I was just coping with my surgeries and going from one surgery to the next with nothing else in between, you know.

Marcus Arredondo

(58:51) Yeah.

Terry Healey

(58:52) Great guy.

Marcus Arredondo

(58:53) I love that story. (58:55) Well, I appreciate you taking some time to talk with us today. (58:59) I am enthusiastic about your book.(59:02) I think there's a lot of value in it. (59:04) I also think what you're doing by virtue of your vulnerability for it's been many years, but I think there's something special about the book in what you're sharing. (59:16) So that is an act of kindness on a greater scale just by virtue.(59:20) I'm curious what your writing process is, to be honest. (59:23) What how did you is has this been something that's been formulating for a while? (59:28) Did you set a discipline where you were writing 30 minutes a day?(59:30) Like what wait for your muse? (59:32) How did you how did you go about writing this?

Terry Healey

(59:35) Yeah, it was an interesting process. (59:37) It's I would hear things. (59:39) So I would I would do a presentation.(59:41) I do a speaking engagement and I would have people come up to me afterwards and say, hey, you know, I read your book, so I know your personal story and you talk about that, but you also talk about all these other tools and methods. (59:56) You need to write a book about that because that's what can help everybody else deal with their own challenge. (1:00:01) And I heard that over and over again, but I was pretty laser focused on on work during those years and just couldn't sit down to write it.(1:00:11) So very different process this time. (1:00:15) I finally just so when I left my job. (1:00:19) In high tech and said I'm retiring.(1:00:23) And that lasted about two months, and I said now I can write this book and it really wasn't the process really wasn't difficult because I basically crafted a one page outline and then I just started pouring into it. (1:00:39) And I was disciplined, like I would say, OK, I'm going to spend two hours a day. (1:00:45) Of focus time on it, and sometimes it'd be more, sometimes it'd be less, but generally speaking, I'd hit at least two hours.(1:00:52) So I had that discipline, but I just kind of let it flow and sort of worked itself out and very cathartic process, actually. (1:01:01) So I enjoyed it.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:01:03) Yeah, well, thank you again for coming on. (1:01:06) Thank you for sharing your story. (1:01:07) Any closing thoughts or things you think we might have missed?

Terry Healey

(1:01:10) No, I just I just want to repeat something I might have said a couple of times, and it's just about, you know, being aware, being alert and being attentive to what's happening around you. (1:01:22) Don't be oblivious. (1:01:23) Pay attention to what people are saying and what's happening and look around and take it in because we don't have all the answers and collectively with other people's input, we can we can get some great inspiration.(1:01:38) So that's what happened to me. (1:01:41) And so I pass that on.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:01:43) Great wisdom. (1:01:44) Thank you, Terry.

Terry Healey

(1:01:45) Thank you so much.

Marcus Arredondo

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