Scales Of Success Podcast

#52 - The Art of Failing Better: Wisdom, Ego, and Growth with Sean Waters

• Marcus Arredondo

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In this electrifying episode of Scales Of Success, host Marcus Arredondo chats with Sean Waters, a musician, performer, writer, philosopher, and father, to talk about ego, purpose, and what it really means to live a well-examined life. From Joseph Campbell to Stoicism and Buddhist wisdom, Sean breaks down how self-awareness, creativity, and daily reflection can turn chaos into clarity. If you’ve ever felt stuck between who you are and who you’re meant to be, this conversation is your wake-up call. Listen now and start turning your setbacks into wisdom that sticks.

Sean Waters is a master teacher at Colorado State University, where he’s taught English for over 13 years. With dual master’s degrees in Philosophy and English Education, he’s helped hundreds of students create meaningful, fulfilling lives. In 2021, he founded the Wisdom Workshop to guide professionals through midlife transitions toward purpose and joy. Beyond the classroom, Sean is a passionate musician and songwriter, reaching over 5,000 monthly listeners on Spotify.

Link up with Sean Waters:
🌐 Website: https://www.wisdomworkshop.io/
🔖 Substack: https://seanwaters.substack.com/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seancharleswaters/

Episode highlights:
(3:27) How to find your bliss?
(11:42) Lessons from Stoicism and Buddhism
(14:39) Follow your bliss and your grunt
(16:44) Failure as feedback and iteration
(26:14) The ego’s role in fulfillment
(37:34) Writing as a mirror for the mind
(45:22) Starting the Wisdom Workshop
(51:58) Lessons from failure and indifference
(56:18) How Buddhist thought informs modern life
(1:00:52) Outro

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Note: The transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

Sean Waters

(0:00) Hey, can you be an epicurean systematically reduce the causes of anxiety and build a business and he's like Well, hmm. (0:11) I think it's a matter of being anxious about the right things (0:15) But if you're a business owner, it's possible to get in the weeds of things that don't matter (0:21) When you really need to identify the things that you should be worried about and attend to those (0:27) with some discipline and discernment

Marcus Arredondo

(0:29) Today's guest is Sean Waters a thinker and creative whose path runs through academia music and writing (0:34) Among the points that stuck with me were his description of philosophy as the craft of character and that silence is often more difficult than criticism (0:42) This coming from the realization that most people won't care about your work and that can actually be freeing in our conversation (0:48) Sean shares how daily writing clarifies purpose why action matters more than passion and how identity isn't fixed but constantly transforming (0:54) His journey is about turning setbacks into growth and living philosophy is something you do not just study (0:59) Let's start the show (1:01) Sean welcome. (1:02) Thank you for coming on. (1:03) Thank you for having me Marcus (1:04) I'm excited because you know (1:06) This is I am like in like you a man of a certain age and I've never really been very involved in social media (1:13) But over the last few years with the advent of you know, the patreons of the world (1:18) But certainly in medium, which I think is a little bit dying down but substack (1:22) Which is how I found you (1:25) X to some degree (1:27) I you know, the the feedback generally is that there's so much noise out there (1:31) but I have successfully started to find some signal and (1:36) you and I don't know each other prior to this for the benefit of the audience and I was really taken by what you're doing and (1:44) I'll allow you to sort of dive into a number of different aspects of your background your expertise and (1:52) Your entrepreneurialism that combines the academia that's symbolized in the books behind you (1:57) but I want to kick this off with in one of your on your sub stack page you talk a little bit about (2:04) your wisdom workshop and (2:07) You write a couple of things that I'm gonna I'm gonna tether together (2:10) But it really is rooted around Joseph Campbell, which is where I want to kick this off (2:14) I don't know how familiar you are with Joseph Campbell, but I recently got turned on to him about a year ago (2:18) I watched the power of myth (2:20) and my mind material my my life materially has (2:24) Shifted in my perspective. (2:26) So let me just read this to you and I'm gonna throw it back and I'll stop talking (2:30) You write that higher education often misses the mark in helping people make personal decisions in the face of life's deepest questions (2:38) This sort of reminds me of the Mark Twain (2:40) Quote don't let academics get in the way of your education (2:43) You know to some degree and then you allude to Jason Joseph Campbell stating our educational system teaches people how to climb ladders (2:51) not critically evaluate the (2:53) Buildings the ladders are leaning against so I use that as a backdrop (2:58) Because what the wisdom workshop is in what scales of success is are not the same (3:03) but scales of success was founded really on two pillars which is (3:06) How to fail better and how to make better decisions and I think those are anchor points within your wisdom workshop (3:13) So you can take it in any direction, but my specific question is to go back to Joseph Campbell (3:20) How are you finding your bliss? (3:22) How do you find? (3:23) How do you advise?

Sean Waters

(3:24) people find their bliss Yeah, thanks for having me on and thanks for pulling pulling that starting point. (3:31) I love starting with the mythical I almost heard you say like you read Joseph Campbell and all of a sudden your mind materialized. (3:37) It's like you all that you have Yeah, like a way of Seeing what we're doing in a different kind of way, which is Also part of I think part of my bliss with reading is seeing Different ways that people have seen seen the world, but that that's to the side aside.(3:54) I think What I'm most fascinated with as you said is that our educational system doesn't seem to prepare people To make those big decisions about their life and it doesn't give them the tools to think about how to make those big decisions and I've also noticed I think the other piece that's interesting about this where my bliss is is in Relating and connecting with other people. (4:20) So like I bring in Socrates basically just Sat around with with people and asked them What is justice and then they would say a response and then they he'd say is that really so is that are you are you? (4:32) happy with that because the implications of that of this and then that basically it's like a Gym or an exercise in Making good decisions having good clear thoughts.(4:44) So I was trained in philosophy (4:46) And as I was doing my philosophy master's degree, I did comparative epistemology (4:52) which is an academic way of saying like comparing knowledge systems, I looked at Buddhist and (4:57) scientific ways of approaching depression and (5:01) You know, they have different starting assumptions Buddhists have different assumptions and scientists do they arrive at different conclusions (5:08) Buddhists have this long path of (5:11) Meditation starting in mindfulness leading to concentration that leads to insight (5:16) Western science has a (5:17) selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (5:21) You can kind of you know, you can take and there's I argue that there's strengths and weaknesses of these different approaches. (5:27) I (5:28) say that because I (5:30) One of the pathways of wisdom is getting curious about how other people are seeing things and letting that curiosity (5:38) inform how we ourselves are seeing things and what I found with the work and the wisdom workshop and the the (5:45) the gap that's filling in the market is (5:48) These kinds of conversations that are illuminating and clarifying (5:52) With relative strangers that are in different places that we are. (5:56) It's astonishing to see (5:59) Generations of people and one of my favorite interactions was between a (6:02) college student who was in the program on a scholarship trying to figure out what she was gonna do with her life working at a (6:09) retail job and a (6:11) mid to high level (6:13) executive at Google working out of San Francisco who was (6:17) advocating for younger people but also at a stage in her life where she was trying to figure out what to do with the (6:22) Next phase of her life and they found some like wait (6:26) We're actually you're in an advanced career position making all the money you would need to make I'm in a college student working a crappy (6:33) retail job and yet we're wrestling (6:36) With largely the contours of the same question. (6:39) Like what do I do? (6:40) What do I do next and how do I even approach that?(6:44) And so I think that question Animating what does that mean as a teacher? (6:50) I've been fascinated with you go into a room and there's 20 different people in there or at least the the writing Classrooms that I teach how am I gonna make this material relevant to everybody? (7:00) I'm saying, you know share a bunch of examples (7:02) But when you're talking about like living a good life or making the decisions that matter (7:09) You and I are gonna approach that differently (7:11) but also in similar kinds of ways and that's that's the kind of question that has animated (7:19) my interest in (7:21) The methods that we have to help people get some kind of clarity around those decisions and then to feel good (7:29) About the decisions that they've made.(7:31) I could say way more about that. (7:33) There's a lot of Sources and frameworks that I found are helpful to frame up those decisions, but I'll turn it back over to you Well, I want you to talk about that.

Marcus Arredondo

(7:44) But in that context, I don't have a master's degree But I also I have an undergrad degree in philosophy ask how What I got my degree in it. (7:54) I typically say arts and crafts because when they hear philosophy They just roll their eyes and think about people pontificating. (8:00) Yeah, but what actually (8:03) Got me into philosophy was a logic class and that's really what sort of (8:10) tethered me to the (8:14) At its core its simplicity, I mean we're all binary it's either do or don't do yes or no (8:19) But it gets complicated when you layer all of those sequential decisions (8:24) because they become (8:25) it becomes infinite and (8:27) where I'm going with this is (8:30) You mentioned the Stoics a little bit and what I love about stoicism. (8:35) I just had Bob Roth who is The CEO of the David Lynch Foundation who teaches TM to a large number of people I am a TM practitioner and the two things between TM and stoicism that I find really applicable are that they are not erudite they are not something Intended to be pontificated all that they can be right.(8:58) They're not exclusive of that But primarily it is a means of living a more fulfilling life. (9:04) So at its core, you know What is the purpose of life? (9:07) Everybody has different ideas of what that is But when I started to evaluate That from the content certainly as a father, which you know You and I have children almost of identical age or at least in the same year.(9:21) How old is your daughter? (9:22) What month was she born in March 12th? (9:26) Okay, so mine is October 26 So almost seven months, you know or give or take and so you witness that through sort of a new lens And I'll land the plane here because I'm sort of going in different directions.(9:40) But as I contemplated that (9:42) You know people talk about I want to be happy which I don't disagree with I certainly want to be happy (9:48) But at the end of the day (9:50) Experientially, I want to be fulfilled and fulfillment requires both (9:54) The joy and the despair it's the hurdles that need to be overcome (9:59) which is a little bit what Joseph Campbell talks about with with mythology and that sort of the (10:05) Commonality among all the different denominational religions even (10:11) indigenous religions share this same (10:14) hero story of (10:16) Overcoming something going and coming back which at its core requires some death of the self (10:22) and so when you talk a little bit about when you were talking about the younger individual and then the (10:28) Elder statesmen who might be at a different stage.(10:31) There is something Universal cyclical You know you sort of the the wool it gets taken away from your eyes as you get older and you realize hey Nobody really knows what the fuck they're talking about and it's all sort of, you know, a bunch of bullshit But we're all battling the same thing. (10:47) I've spoken to 70 year olds (10:48) I've spoken to 15 year olds and everybody in between that have I don't want to say struggle but faced a (10:55) turning point where they are (10:58) Maybe it's the actualization of the more (11:01) Finality of time not to suggest that you are (11:06) getting (11:07) Just that you're more not you're it's not necessarily mortality (11:09) But you start to take a more palpable sense of like what the meaning is there (11:14) And so I would love for you to go into the decision-making, but how does that decision-making? (11:19) contribute to how you might advise some of the students within your comparative literature Courses and the ones that you talk about in the wisdom workshop, which are sort of outwardly different Subject matters, but they sort of stem from very similar Beginnings from my perspective.

Sean Waters

(11:41) Yeah. (11:42) No, I think that's fair. (11:43) And I I'd say a couple things here (11:45) We could look at this as different levels (11:47) are you like the big decisions of whether or not you're gonna move to a different place or (11:51) where to allocate your capital or those kinds of like (11:54) There's that level of decision-making of what kind of what kind of trajectories you're going to go on (11:59) There's another kind of at a different level in terms of studying happiness. (12:05) This is you mentioned stoicism (12:06) I'm a big fan of Epicurus who was a contemporary of this of the Stoics that we're meeting in the Agora (12:13) Epicurus had a garden or that's what he called his learning center and kind of a cult following and a lot of people said nasty (12:20) things about them that they were just hedonists and they just cared about pursuing pleasure and (12:25) But really what the Epicureans were after was alleviating unnecessary suffering (12:31) So just at a baseline, can we identify the causes that bring us anxiety and suffering that we don't need and (12:40) That are unnatural and just take them out (12:42) and what if we like appreciated the simple pleasures of life like eating good food with people we care about and (12:49) If we've structured our so it's a it's a kind of like a different flavor (12:54) Well from the Stoics that still have a similar kind of like we shouldn't be worried about (13:01) Pardon my French the shit we can't change right which includes a lot of our emotional egotistical programming (13:07) So yeah, we have these egos we have these emotional attachments. (13:10) We shouldn't maybe beat ourselves up about that We can reduce our ambient suffering Alleviate that suffering on a day-to-day basis This is what brought me to Buddhism by the way as I was as you were saying about it Epicurus that sounds very Buddhist There's a some very much.(13:27) So it's like let's identify the causes of suffering (13:29) that are unnatural and can we remove them and (13:35) That is very much the Buddhists kind of the sense that the Buddha is a physician of the human condition (13:40) that's what I see philosophy as a practical philosophy is (13:44) Being able to be a good person which means at least in the West that you're able to help (13:50) Yourself and other people find fulfillment by identifying through logic through intelligence (13:57) Where we're getting hung up (13:59) Which is easier said than done when you're in a room by yourself or like in a room by yourself scrolling on your phone (14:05) It gets even weirder (14:07) but I'd say like in terms of the (14:10) Work inside the university and the work outside the university with the wisdom workshop (14:15) there is that (14:17) Continuity that we're alleviating suffering. (14:20) We're promoting well-being We're as you said fulfillment. (14:24) We're like, yeah, it's not happiness in like a yay.(14:28) I feel really good it's a happiness in terms of I'm working on something. (14:34) Don't bother me and I'll get back to you I can't wait to talk to you, but I'm working here. (14:39) You mentioned Joseph Campbell follow your bliss Which is beautiful and I share that with a lot of young people as well But Joseph Campbell had a flip another one to that.(14:48) That was also that he said does like follow your grunt (14:51) It's not enough to just follow your bliss (14:53) You have to follow the work that you're willing to do (14:57) That other people might not be willing to do because guess what to me who's a 19 year old aspiring artist (15:04) If you just follow your bliss and you don't (15:09) Follow the grunt that goes along with your bliss (15:13) It's gonna be tough to make a career as a watercolor artist or as an indie rock musician (15:19) I just had a student in my at CSU ask me, you know, what what's the career advice you'd give to artists and I'm like (15:27) Get a job and not any old job (15:30) Get a job that supports you in your art if you're an artist you're gonna be making art your whole life in my (15:37) Experience it helps to not rely on that art to make yourself money (15:41) So can we reframe like you will make some money with your art?(15:45) But for me, it feels good to not put that pressure on my art to instead Find work as like a clerk or something that doesn't drain me so that I can like pursue the art I'll turn it back to you except just to say that I've Not only are we working to make big decisions. (16:04) We're working to have the habits that just alleviate the anxiety (16:10) That's unnecessary in our existence which per my phone and my recording rig here (16:16) There's a lot of opportunity for that anxiety to arise now more than ever which is why I think anxiety rates are skyrocketing

Marcus Arredondo

(16:24) How do you advise people in order to make good decisions I find that it's important to have (16:29) Principles or frameworks under that underpin, you know the the structure behind making those decisions (16:36) How do you suggest people go about creating those for themselves?(16:40) What have you seen that's full in young and older people?

Sean Waters

(16:43) I mean Ray Dalio's book principles is pretty much pretty hard to beat And what you learn from that the other one I'd recommend is Bill Burnett and Dave Evans They have the designing your life program designing their their design instructors at a Stanford that turn their attention to advising so you get like a Student come in and say hey, should I go to grad school? (17:06) I can't decide and They would say something like well, this is actually a design problem. (17:12) Just like I want to design a better pencil Well, if you want to design a better pencil, that's gonna be tough because the design is pretty well in but we'll use this example You're gonna make a prototype of your new pencil.(17:24) You're gonna give it to the user (17:25) They're gonna use it (17:27) You're gonna get feedback on that use and then you're gonna implement a new prototype (17:31) With the same or different users get new feedback and then maybe on the third or fourth prototype (17:37) You really got something where the weight and the grip is perfect (17:42) Then you go into production (17:44) So I feel like that's that framework that design thinking framework is the one that I recommend (17:51) And that means it's the same like Ray Dalio's (17:54) Loop.

Marcus Arredondo

(17:55) Yeah.

Sean Waters

(17:56) Yeah, like so you're you're iterating you are setting up (18:01) Something where you're looking forward to failing in some significant way (18:05) So it's like you know, you keep almost like a failure log that you're like, okay (18:10) this didn't go the way that I had wanted and (18:14) That's what I wanted because now I know more about the next decision that I'm gonna make (18:19) So it's kind of like almost like a Jedi mind trick to remove this.(18:23) Oh Well, you know, I see this with a lot of young people if I don't choose the right career. (18:29) Oh my god Can you help me choose what career I'm going into? (18:32) I'm like, well, you know just statistically average American will have seven to eight careers in their lifetime Maybe you don't beat yourself up over choosing the right one first Maybe you iterate with the sense that it might not be the fit You know, I remember when I went through school.(18:54) I was a (18:56) Valedictorian of Poudre High School class of 2000 (19:00) Went and so we know I went through and then went took a year off to ski (19:04) Because that's what people that's what want to be philosophers who live the good life are playing in a (19:10) Terrible bands and skiing deep powder in Montana for my first year out of college (19:15) my first year out of high school and then I (19:19) Just remember going through college at that time (19:21) There wasn't an expectation that you were gonna get a good job after college (19:25) It was like no, I'm gonna get like an entry-level kind of crappy job (19:29) But then I'm gonna work my way up (19:31) so eventually I'll get a good job and (19:34) I think what's happening now is that a lot more young people and maybe all of us are expecting to get that really good job (19:43) when we graduate and we're expecting for the next thing to be really good and (19:47) It's like but what if it's not can you be happy with the possibility that it's not the best thing because then (19:55) Now you're able to now (19:58) instead of (20:00) Making a decision based on that anxiety and fear that it's not gonna work out (20:06) You're making a decision with more curiosity openness and no matter what happens you're gonna learn and then we're doing what Nassim (20:14) Talib calls the anti-fragile stuff, right? (20:16) We're getting ourselves stronger as a Framework, no matter what happens you get what Bill Burnett and Dave Evans call failure immunity Which is kind of the choice to be happy It's like yeah, I'm gonna choose to be happy even if this doesn't work out and probably it won't Because I let's face it. (20:36) I Don't really know what I'm doing as you said before the call, right?(20:39) You get older and you realize all the people that have this figured out (20:44) They're like they don't actually fully haven't figured out the people that seem the happiest online (20:50) Don't aren't actually as happy as they present themselves like we're (20:55) That's what I would say I think there's another piece of this (21:00) around like scarcity mindset stuff just how our mindsets approach things and (21:05) The science that when you feel like you don't have enough money you make terrible decisions around money (21:11) And when you feel like you don't have enough time you make terrible decisions around time (21:16) and so approaching our time and our money and our energy from kind of I (21:21) hate this term because it's so easily abused by self-help gurus like an abundance mindset if you have more of a (21:29) That can that can help so it's like little things like that little pieces

Marcus Arredondo

(21:33) I don't want to be reductionist in what you're talking about, but I keep hearing in everything you're saying (21:40) It all goes back to ego to me and I could be wrong but there are really there are two sources of (21:47) pain for people in general and it is (21:51) associated with fear of the future or regret about the past and (21:55) In so doing you're not in the present, which has been beaten to death in today's like guys (22:00) But I think there's a reason it has become more prevalent certainly past the pandemic (22:06) where mental health became (22:09) At least it surfaced as a more important priority and (22:14) Rightfully, so as you alluded to the anxiety growing but between Ray Dalio, which is, you know radical transparency (22:22) You're talking about (22:25) Feedback. (22:25) Yeah, you're talking about failure.(22:27) You're talking about making the right decisions All of this we are not, you know as a whole. (22:33) I don't think people are afraid of failure. (22:36) They're afraid of others viewing them failing and That has more to do from my perspective on How you're viewing yourself and this sort of goes to I wanted to ask you about, you know, some of your music career You've performed over a thousand shows, right?(22:55) I mean you've you've been in public You're putting yourself out there on In your workshop, you've put yourself out there as an academic and as a teacher You got to plant your flag to some degree. (23:08) I'm sure you've gotten blowback from people from different times (23:11) but you know, I again I think of this straight through the lens of a father who (23:17) the greatest test of mastery is the ability to teach and if you can't teach your children how to (23:25) deal with certain frustrations it becomes (23:28) Somewhat evident that you are not capable of doing it yourself if you can't, you know distill it (23:34) Which I also want to talk about writing because I think that's a really important thing for all of us (23:39) I get a lot of feedback from people who say well (23:41) No, I think about things I go for a walk and I think about things and that is not without its value (23:45) but there's something distinct about (23:47) you were referring to (23:50) Effectively the removal of things people focus, especially I found young people myself included.(23:55) I want to find my passion I want to find my bliss. (23:57) I want to find the thing that I'm good at the icky guy of you know you know what you're good at what the world needs what makes you feel good and what you can monetize and You want to find that but the reality is and I think it goes to spouses. (24:13) I think it goes to jobs I think it goes to friendships.(24:16) You need the reps and that to me is maybe what? (24:21) you and Joseph Campbell were alluding to with the grunt of (24:24) You know, you want to be an artist but the greatest artists have lives well-lived and (24:30) That is a result of putting themselves in circumstances that require (24:35) the empathy the access to the (24:38) Distillation of those experiences because you can't be a great artist (24:43) I maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think you can be a great artist in a closed room (24:47) You know absent any stimuli and so, you know, tell me if you think otherwise, but I'm curious how you advise (24:54) If you agree (24:56) How do you advise at its core for me? (24:59) At least ego had so much to do with Ego and identity had a lot to do with each other for me. (25:07) And when I started to realize that you know (25:10) my identity to now whoever I am now is (25:15) withholding the identity of who I could be come and (25:19) It was the the freedom to allow that feedback (25:23) that I may not be the person I am now in the future and that might be a (25:29) Different version a better version that goes to your abundance idea to me (25:33) The more you fail the more reps you have at determining what is not me (25:38) And I think reality to your point about Epicurious (25:41) we are removing the sources of the anxiety rather than adding the things that give us joy because the removal allows us to see we're (25:49) clearly a (25:50) Pathway forward. (25:52) I realize I'm talking a little bit more than I should be because this is Thing I really enjoy these types of conversation, but I'm curious. (25:59) How do you advise people?(26:00) How do you reconcile? (26:02) the role that the ego plays into this and (26:07) Counsel those who feel that they should be finding something rather than (26:12) removing something I

Sean Waters

(26:14) like this question and (26:16) I want to say that there's one thing that you said that (26:19) you're sure that I've gotten some blowback from what I've done or that I've done like a lot of writing and (26:26) a semi professional career as a musician and (26:29) we'll say like a professional career as an academic, but any one of these the closest thing I've gotten to blow back is (26:35) People that care about me saying wow, Sean you have so much potential if you if you funneled it into one thing instead of five things (26:44) You really actually, you know, you could have a good career as a musician (26:48) You could have a good career as an academic. (26:51) You could have a good career as an entrepreneur Are you gonna quit your job at CSU to do the entrepreneurship stuff?(26:57) Are you gonna stop doing that and focus on your studio work? (26:59) Like which one are you going to choose? (27:02) And I have always I and increasingly that that was troubling for me for a long time as I didn't want to make the wrong choice But I've come to a point Looking at actually Robert Keegan.(27:13) I know there's a lot of references here for people. (27:15) He wrote He's a developmental psychologist out of Harvard. (27:19) I believe maybe Stanford But he he talks about the self-transforming mind as being like the pinnacle of adult development Where we don't identify with the things that we do.(27:30) We even don't identify with the story that we're authoring It's like I am Sean a self-made musician self-made man father Instead of identifying with that I identify with the process of transformation, but I'm following Following my bliss in these domains that I care about that. (27:47) I want to do for the rest of my life That if I'm retired What am I gonna do with my days? (27:54) Actually looks pretty similar to what I'm gonna do right now I want to try to spend a little bit of time in the studio I want to spend time with my family.(28:00) I want to spend time writing. (28:01) I want to spend time reading. (28:06) I (28:06) I'm just saying that as like my personal experience of blowback that I've gotten from my creative path (28:14) Just also got along with you know, making a bunch of terrible tik-tok videos (28:18) I have 37,000 followers on tik-tok have some success on tik-tok made a lot of terrible tik-tok videos a lot (28:27) and so I guess (28:29) It's not just and maybe I'm not making (28:34) I'm not making (28:36) Content that is inviting blowback and maybe a little bit too (28:42) Soft and as it were in a sense (28:45) But I think the bigger source of blowback is indifference (28:48) So people you pour yourself into something and nobody cares. (28:54) I Got that when we released our first albums with our first band the Sears. (28:59) I was playing with a blind piano player I put a lot of shows in we put thousands of dollars tons of hours into the defining album Nothing really happened people were like, hey, this is a good job.(29:13) Hey, what else is going on? (29:14) Like no, no don't be indifferent to this work of genius and Now when I listen back to it, I'm like, oh that was the appropriate response to that record And then but the next time we'll do the net we'll do a next one We're gonna make these adjustments. (29:32) We're gonna go hard on the next one.(29:33) We're gonna make a great album This one is gonna move the needle for us More indifference, but did you hear track two? (29:44) Did you hear how they? (29:47) So I feel like it's less I Think what early creators and what people?(29:53) not just early creators, but I think anyone this may been be more realistic if we're like a Entering into an encore career if we're if we're 60 and Considering learning an instrument because we've always liked songwriting. (30:07) I think it's less The blowback we're gonna get is less like what are you doing? (30:13) although because people are generally like quiet about that and more just indifference people don't care and I feel like that's the Gary Vee talks about this like That's the like that's your that's your that's your path to liberation realize that nobody really cares Yeah, you know, they're not gonna get they're all doing their own thing.(30:34) That's the benefit of being a small artist You don't have to worry about your platform or your fan base because you don't have one so play around You know and I still feel like we have like 5,000 monthly listeners on Spotify Making some songs that I feel really good about. (30:50) I know I already feel good about them My daughter likes them. (30:53) She's the harshest critic.(30:54) I've met she will say very soon change a song No, if she doesn't like it, right? (31:00) So I know I feel good about them. (31:03) I know it's also taken me 10 years as a recording artist to get to a point where I can create a song and have the network of people of Professionals make a professional song like that just doesn't happen overnight or if it does happen overnight.(31:18) It's Expensive you're paying a ton of money to get that done. (31:23) So I Would say in long answer to your question. (31:27) It really is the willingness to work in the face of indifference (31:31) without any reward and (31:34) Focusing on more of like the craft you said philosophy is arts and crafts (31:39) I love that and I joke that philosophy is like the craft of character (31:43) So people, you know people people (31:47) When I remember joking about this at the time when people were kind of sneer at the oh, you got a philosophy degree (31:52) What are you gonna do with that?(31:53) Oh, yeah My response would generally be I don't know I'm gonna be a good person and I believe that the rest is gonna work itself out and I feel like that is the only Bit of pushback I would have around the framing of the ego question Which I really like because I do think we're really you're on to something here of reducing that to the ego But it's not getting rid of the ego. (32:15) I don't think I think it's retraining that you go to identify with the right stuff so I am NOT a person who is a Great musician. (32:25) I'm a person who cares about the craft of making music Which means I'm giving myself the room to fail, right?(32:32) I'm a person that cares more about character craft and virtues than I do about Worldly success, I believe my ego believes that if I work on my character Worldly success enough of it. (32:47) I'm gonna have that I'm also gonna give him that's gonna give me room to Really be with my daughter when I'm with her Which is challenging as an entrepreneur because you could always do more as an entrepreneur, right?

Marcus Arredondo

(32:59) You um, the one thing that I keep going back to is I mean, this is all about the work I think there's something to do with volume to Quantity of reps so to speak Because you know, whereas we were talking beforehand There's a there's like a critical mass, you know of any sort of endeavor That is worthwhile to me that requires effort. (33:23) I mean surfing has been one of the greatest godsends I've ever been able to attain. (33:29) I didn't start surfing until I was 27 years old And it sucked it was so brutal For so long and when everybody when anybody asks like I want to learn how to surf What should I do?(33:40) The first thing I say is it's the best (33:44) But it will get worse before it gets better and it's that willingness to sort of go through it and have that faith (33:50) But in order to get that faith, you know in the surfing may not be a great analogy because I had friends (33:55) I had context I had a little bit of understanding but at its core when you're doing something like music your own craft (34:01) you really need to have a connection to (34:06) that source that (34:08) that guiding light (34:10) that is your truest signal and I try and keep this as I don't as (34:17) Much as I enjoy talking up here in the ether.(34:19) I am trying to distill it to something very pragmatic something that's implementable And what I mean by that is, you know, there's just certain things like this podcast For example for me when I started doing this It would have been very easy for me. (34:34) You know, it's it's not just the production identifying resources Figuring out a system, but it's also finding out reaching out to guests. (34:42) You know, I was fortunate (34:44) I had some good friends that had very good stories that were excellent storytellers that helped to kick it off (34:49) It started to give me some credibility and I built on that but I'm constantly business developing so to speak (34:54) I'm reaching out to new people, but I'm just following (34:57) My nose, I'm just following that curiosity (35:01) Because I've had everybody from DA officers (35:05) to dog rehabilitators to TM practitioners, I've had (35:11) Nurses I've had academics. (35:13) I've had journalists. (35:14) I've had in best time best sellers.(35:17) I've had Pulitzer Prize winners I've had Producers it's a big mix and I think it's been Challenging to find an audience because it's sort of like where's this guy going? (35:28) What's he doing? (35:30) And if I were to have listened to that or listen to the silence in many ways (35:34) It would have been very easy to fall off to stop (35:38) but when I got to my page and I kept writing about this stuff and I kept sort of breaking down even from a (35:46) perspective of gratitude a perspective of education of (35:51) conversational skills of curiosity skills of (35:54) questioning doing research before these conversations and finding more (35:59) surface area from which I could start to parlay new sources of information and (36:05) Contextualize other pieces of data that I was given from the outside from these conversations. (36:11) It just started to Create a fabric that was a lot more fulfilling a lot more in-depth It was three-dimensional and I I asked this because how do you find that for you? (36:22) I mean I can speak only Primarily to the writing process, which I would love to get to your point where I'm publishing more externally, but I am writing a lot internally and there's Journaling a lot of people have asked like how do you journal?(36:40) You know, I don't even know what to write about and you know Maybe it's a little bit once you start writing It's a lot easier to sit down and write whatever you think is gonna you know, whatever you're gonna do But even just sitting with chat GPT and say give me like 10 prompts It's like pretty easy just to sort of go off of that. (36:57) I'm going in tangents You can tell that I'm enjoying this conversation but how do you find that signal that that source because you are in both your Academic career and also in your workshop. (37:10) I would argue that is among if not the greatest Challenge or priority you might have is helping people identify that well of Curiosity and to cultivate it and to expand it and to enrich it What do you find successful?

Sean Waters

(37:28) I asked this as a parent as well, you know hoping to flower those water those seeds Yeah, and I'll do my best to bring this down to the practical and pragmatic at a daily basis, too I'm I am a practical philosopher as it were a Couple things I would say I love the surfing metaphor. (37:49) By the way, I'm glad to learn that you're a surfer I actually think that's one of the most powerful metaphors for what this looks like Mainly because I am at it. (37:58) I'm a terrible surfer (37:59) I've been out like eight days (38:02) Maybe nine nine days across different vacations where I went to surf schools to learn how to surf on vacation (38:09) Hurt myself a lot of pain (38:12) And I learned what's interesting about that is what you think the surfing is (38:17) The image I have a surfing in my head as a novice is not (38:21) doesn't bear very much resemblance to what it's like to actually get better at surfing which is more reading the ocean and (38:28) Positioning to get in you in the spot. (38:31) If you can't stay in the spot you need to be and (38:34) Read when the waves are coming (38:37) You're not gonna be able to catch the wave and if you're betting on catching the wave as surfing (38:42) It's like 95% of the work is getting out to where you need to be which is really hard when you're learning

Marcus Arredondo

(38:48) Yeah

Sean Waters

(38:49) and then getting back out there once you catch a wave because that's when you're gonna get beat up is just getting in the (38:55) right position (38:55) so I think I want to use that metaphor for a daily writing practice and say that that is the thing that I would (39:02) lean on as (39:04) Not just a daily writing practice, but how a daily writing practice illuminates our daily practices in general (39:12) so and (39:13) I would say in order to get better at that (39:15) There's a lot of different ways to do it, but I would join a group like a wisdom workshop (39:18) We have a writing the good life group that works on establishing a daily writing practice (39:23) We have a happiness culture lab that works on using writing as a tool (39:27) For happiness one of the things that you were doing and we might say fulfillment general like genuine fulfillment and flourishing (39:35) You are identifying what you want to do on a daily basis (39:39) Yes, like you're basically creating those rituals for hey, if you're not doing this every day (39:45) You're not really doing it. (39:47) So I mean you are but not really like So in terms of practical bring it down to the practical I could just ask you to do an inventory of what are you doing every day?(39:58) What's your daily screen time every day? (40:00) When are you watching your screen? (40:02) What are you what are you doing for your meals?(40:05) How are you doing those things? (40:06) I had a buddy on I talked that was the kind of a ritual expert and someone asked them in the Q&A section How do I know if my daily ritual is working and he's like, do you want to do it again, right? (40:20) Are you gonna do it again?(40:22) And I think with daily writing it takes a little bit because getting on the page at first is like yeah There's some moments of ooh, this is great. (40:30) There's also some like I don't know what to write I don't this is like I'm not sure what to do. (40:36) And yeah (40:37) I mean, I think chat GPT and other these writing tools make it deceptively simple of what writing actually is (40:43) It makes it seem like it's really easy and in some ways it is (40:47) But I think there's a lot of like the equivalent of getting out to the spot (40:52) Absolutely and getting beat up on the way there and being like no it's worth it for me to get to that spot (40:59) because there (41:01) Then I can catch a tiny wave and it's okay if I go to the page and I just get beat up all morning (41:08) Then that's fine. (41:09) So I would say also like Julia Cameron's the artists way is a little woo-woo (41:14) But she does a really good job of letting people be petty on the page like me (41:20) Petty complain about everything on the page (41:22) I wouldn't recommend that but it's a way to like for some people to get on the page every day (41:27) And it's kind of like venting great (41:31) That's what I would say in terms of bringing it down and making it practical is (41:35) What are you doing on a daily basis? (41:38) And how would you adjust that daily those daily commitments to be more?(41:44) Like you want to live that day over and over again. (41:47) Just kind of like Nietzsche's eternal return, right? (41:50) We're gonna Live this moment as if it were gonna be returning eternally live this day as if it were gonna be Recurring eternally make small adjustments.(42:02) So now I can play a little bit of guitar with my daughter at night and Have fun with that Great. (42:08) I can write a little bit every morning I can spend an hour at some point of time inside the sub stack platform doing something And I can teach a class and I can also you know Spend time outreach for like you said business development. (42:25) That's important to me So I'm gonna spend a little bit of time on that and now I have this kind of flywheel of these little things that I do Connected with the food that I know makes me feel good and when I'm gonna eat it is when I ate eat too late at Night didn't feel as good So I'm not gonna eat late at night when I look at my phone late at night Didn't feel as good.(42:49) I'm not gonna look at my phone late at night I'm gonna find like I have a little plastic dinosaur that I put my phone underneath when it gets dark so I have to like I Like that I did it once and I like this is great. (43:02) I'm gonna do it again tomorrow

Marcus Arredondo

(43:04) Yeah, I find that like some of the best things (43:07) oftentimes the best things tend to be (43:09) ones you notice (43:11) Not that your life changes materially the next day when you do them, but when you start doing them repeatedly, they're materially worse when you don't (43:20) And it's a little bit of like the reversal of you think how many people tend to view, you know (43:25) I gotta find (43:26) This right career I gotta find the thing that I'm great at it's like well (43:29) No, go find what you what you suck at that will inform what is good what you're good at. (43:34) Yeah, I want to move on to the your workshop and your entrepreneurial Hat but before I do I want to just ask one question about What do you think we get out of writing longhand rather than on a typewriter a computer?

Sean Waters

(43:47) I want to honor neuro divergence a little bit here. (43:50) So I think for some people Typing actually helps if particularly if and this this will be illuminating if when we write it creates all this Self-consciousness. (44:02) I'm like, oh my god my handwriting.(44:04) Oh, wow. (44:05) How does this look? (44:06) I wonder what people would think if they saw this if That is overwhelming When you see yourself do that, it might be better for you to type but for me and the general research suggests A couple things one having a specific point of focus and Having that focus come through a specific point literally like your pinpoint That's just soothing feels good.(44:37) Yeah, it's just like feels nice (44:39) It's a different sensation than typing and I think it gets us away from the screen (44:44) So I don't I'm not like I already do enough on the screen (44:49) That's the quick answer

Marcus Arredondo

(44:51) Yeah, I mean, I just found that it's a lot more cathartic and because also it slows you down a little bit (44:56) And so I do tend to be more distilled in (45:00) How I'm thinking about things (45:02) And I think there's less likelihood. (45:04) I just write something. (45:06) That's not me Because maybe some of that slowed down perspective so on your wisdom workshop talk to me how about the Genesis and The mistakes that you've witnessed because you started it in 2021 2021 Yeah, this is helpful Again Yeah, I can disclaimer, you know, whatever user experience may vary.

Sean Waters

(45:34) This is not my experience as an entrepreneur I'm not sure how much it will relate to other people because I approached this as a musician I had very little training in in entrepreneurship. (45:46) I (45:48) Long story short went through a minor midlife crisis as a creative before our daughter was born and (45:57) Was both very satisfied for the work I was doing as a musician and an academic and also kind of (46:03) Disillusioned with my work as a musician (46:05) So I'm like, ah (46:06) this is was on the other side of going out to LA and working with the live music manager of Eric Burton and the animals (46:12) and creating these amazing tracks that took a long time to create and (46:17) now being like (46:18) Chained to Spotify for artists and my mental health deteriorating and this isn't why I got into music in the first place (46:25) What am I doing with my adult life? (46:28) Kind of questions.(46:29) Maybe I'll instead of going to buy a brand new car I joke that a philosopher that has a midlife crisis. (46:36) What do they do? (46:36) They start a school and they recruit students That is what I did though and I got there from to your point Doing some deep investigation by that point.(46:48) I was already seven years into a daily writing practice I had already saw that daily writing was the most significant thing. (46:54) I'd done for my personal self-awareness and personal philosophy and I Kind of got to the source of what that not just the personal writing But what is this? (47:06) What is it about this that I love and it is this kind of why I love philosophy before I went to school which is just the self-awareness and I started wondering like what?(47:18) Programs are there if I was to continue as a studying philosophy Postgraduate what programs are there out there for for me? (47:26) There's modern elder Academy. (47:28) There's the alt MBA Seth Godin's program this I think is philosophical and so far as it puts you gives you a ton of feedback reps in Building something there is David Perel's rite of passage that they were all these like more expensive $5,000 and up programs.(47:45) There's a variety of masterminds a lot of professionally oriented programs But I couldn't really find one that was this open self-directed Learning creative education like I couldn't find what I was looking for. (48:00) So in my pages I had this, you know Write the book that you want to read and if you can't find the book if you can't find the book that you want to Read you may be the one that needs to write that book I had the same thing like if I couldn't find the education that I wanted online Maybe you should create that education. (48:20) I also had at that same time that was during kovat the experience of moving classrooms online to zoom and My experience of that was very different than a lot of people's I was astonished at how The affordances that video conferencing has and how I felt like I actually got to know my students better on zoom Than I did in the classroom.(48:43) How so not all of them well (48:46) You see more of people in some kind of a way when you see them in their element (48:50) You see them on screen and you see them like the way (48:55) Sure, there's some people that don't even have their cameras on and there's some people that aren't really there at all in the classroom (49:01) but that's the same as in person and (49:04) Then you have these four or five students (49:06) That are locked in and are engaged with each other and using the chat in (49:12) ways that they didn't in a real classroom and I'm like, oh this is fascinating and I also (49:18) In my teaching style is more Socratic and more tangential and freewheeling as it were even though it's structured and good (49:25) Instructional design and I care about the art of teaching a great deal (49:28) I still know that my teaching style works for let's say it works really well (49:34) For about 10% of my students like two people out of a 20 person classroom (49:39) it's just they get it they get it from day one and they get it the whole way through and (49:45) It works pretty well for maybe another five students and likely on the other side of the like bell curve (49:51) There's students that it doesn't work right away.(49:53) They know nah, I don't buy it (49:56) This isn't so I thought man if I could populate a group (50:01) online (50:02) With the ideal people that I would want to learn with and (50:06) Position myself as a learner because I'm creating the course that I want to take and not only that I want to create the course (50:13) I want to take over and over again because I want to create the structure that I would want to be in over and over (50:19) again that (50:20) question (50:21) Led to the whole thing.(50:23) So it's like a beautiful question what if I created the course that I wanted to take that I would want to take over and over again and Then I started thinking about well, it would be in the good life and then I was like, well What would the content of that be? (50:36) Well, we're gonna do presence. (50:37) We're gonna do purpose.(50:39) We're gonna do play We're gonna do projects. (50:42) We're gonna do process. (50:43) We're gonna talk about people and we're gonna talk about perspective we got like a learning loop and How are we gonna do it?(50:51) We're gonna write every day meet every week and reflect (50:54) we got a method and (50:56) As far as I could see I wasn't seeing anything like that (51:00) And so it was kind of I stumbled into this and luckily it was interesting at the beginning of the business of the beginning of (51:05) The business it was at the great resignation where a lot of people were quitting their jobs and figuring out what was next (51:12) So I had a lot of I had and clubhouse was big (51:15) So I had a lot of I had in people coming into the workshop (51:19) Who were using the workshop as a way to navigate a mid life mid career? (51:26) what next moment and That helped me clarify I was like, oh, this is kind of what I was doing for myself Making something to get me over that existential midlife crisis I'm gonna start my own school and I can actually help people do similar kinds of things of I'm gonna start my own sub stack.(51:47) I'm gonna start my own side business of laser engraving. (51:51) I'm going to So that's that's that's the first answer to the question, how did it happen Mistakes I've made I think I over indexed on cold outreach will say and under-indexed on warm connections and Looking back at the success of the business. (52:13) The best success is from a couple of people who referred all of their friends (52:18) Mm-hmm those people became my and this is not like (52:23) If you're paying attention to modern marketing trends, this isn't like rocket science, but it I thought I've got 30,000 tick-tock followers (52:31) My troubles are over (52:33) actually, no (52:35) Very very very few of those people are converting to enroll in a course where they're gonna be on (52:43) Camera with other people in real time.(52:45) That's not how tick-tock works And Maybe also I'm bad at creating content that converts because I just want to create content that I want to create in some kind of A way, but I do think I think that's the biggest mistake. (52:58) Is that I (53:00) underappreciated how valuable those relationships were at the outset and (53:06) Overappreciated trying to reach people out there (53:11) Think that second second mistake I made was in (53:15) Wanting the business to grow faster than it was naturally growing and then making some hires internally with people that I really (53:23) respected and (53:24) Cared for as friends because they were really good at operations which meant (53:29) they were also a little more expensive than I was probably should have paid and (53:34) Then that created the pressure of instead of it being like hey (53:37) You're now taking all the operations off of my plate since we're making this school (53:41) I need like a bursar and a (53:43) Admin and all these people to help make that happen that ended up being more work than I realized it would be (53:49) Turns out, you know hiring an operations person (53:54) It takes a while for that pay for that to really pay off.(53:58) At least it wasn't my experience as a newbie founder so I settling back into taking it slow and letting it grow at a pace that it's growing and Re-investing in the relationships that make it work has been my like my My insight that I've come back to from that big mistake, but that's a balancing out for I think all entrepreneurs too, right?

Marcus Arredondo

(54:22) It's that impatience that record that compels action And that's right, you know propels the machine further. (54:29) That's right. (54:29) I don't you don't think you've ever met a I've never met an entrepreneur that's been happy with the speed at which things are growing.

Sean Waters

(54:35) That's right. (54:36) That's funny My friend who's a financial independence retire early guy it was in McKenzie turned You know buying and selling businesses is a really good mind for this. (54:47) I Asked him about epicurean entrepreneurship about like hey, can you be an epicurean?(54:54) systematically reduce the causes of anxiety and build a business and he's like Well, hmm, I think it's a matter of being anxious about the right things But if you're a business owner, it's possible to get in the weeds of things that don't matter When you really need to identify the things that you should be worried about and attend to those With some discipline and discernment. (55:21) Oh my god. (55:22) It's brilliant.

Marcus Arredondo

(55:23) Well personally, I feel like that anxiety And this is bridging into my next question, which is what Eastern traditions? (55:30) Have you found to be the greater influences and how you teach because you you combine Western and Eastern? (55:37) But I'll as a as a springboard for that in relation to your last comment from your friend I sort of think anxiety stems from attachment.(55:48) Yeah, and to go back to your Buddhist concepts (55:51) You know, I struggle with reconciling detachment with (55:57) Compulsion and you know (56:01) the motivation and the drive (56:03) So I haven't found that sweet spot, but I'd like to think that (56:06) You know, you can still have that with detachment from (56:11) You know the ultimate outcome, but I'll leave that for you to chew on and give me feedback (56:16) But I'm curious what Eastern yeah, absolutely.

Sean Waters

(56:19) I mean first foremost Buddhist thought I think Buddhist psychology is super advanced and (56:24) The Abhidharma was literally means like on top of the teaching (56:28) So basically the thinkers after the Buddha that took his teachings and put it into a psychological system (56:33) Basically, like these are the wholesome mental factors because they alleviate suffering (56:38) these are the unwholesome mental factors because they promote them we can condition the arising of the wholesome ones and (56:45) Uncondition the arising of the unwholesome ones and it's little by little by little and it's not rocket science (56:52) It just takes this so wise effort in this sense is just being able to retrain when we notice to bring our attention (56:59) back (57:01) to the interest in (57:04) Like the bodhisattva vow like doing something for the benefit of all (57:08) then you can be detached from the outcome and detached from the (57:13) What if this doesn't work and into more of a no, I don't have energy to waste on that (57:18) Because I got a I got to get to work (57:22) on these other things so (57:24) As at first Buddhism, it's astonishingly rigorous and logical (57:28) I think people in the wet (57:30) We don't get to appreciate how rigorous and logical Buddhist thought is because that's not how it's presented to us (57:36) but if you read early Indian Buddhist stuff, it's like (57:40) All logic. (57:41) It's so dry. (57:42) It's so causally That's how he taught.(57:46) Yeah and Taoist Taoism, too (57:48) I'm a big fan of being natural finding your way is not my way and (57:54) Understanding our nature and respecting that naturalness that we have I've drawn a lot of insight from an inspiration from Taoism as well

Marcus Arredondo

(58:03) What we're coming up on time here, so I want to give you an opportunity to answer one last question (58:10) But before that you talk about introducing philosophy using young adult literature from I think a thesis you had written, right?

Sean Waters

(58:17) Mm-hmm.

Marcus Arredondo

(58:18) What do you see as important about introducing philosophy to younger? (58:24) Individuals and how do they implement that? (58:28) How do you help them implement that?

Sean Waters

(58:30) Yeah, it's great There's a I'll have a sub stack post coming out very soon. (58:34) That's of a philosophy for children and there's organizations that do that Basically as soon as a person is able to engage the question what makes a good friend Mmm, you're doing philosophy for five years old My three-year-old that asks the question why I don't know probably 80 times a day Yeah, in some ways she is doing she's just trying to figure everything out. (59:03) She's building her vocabulary but in other ways, you know, she's asking she's asking big questions and For me to be able to say I don't I don't know how dreams work, sweetie That's an open question.(59:16) We still don't really know What why we dream? (59:21) There's a bunch of theories But we don't know where dreams come from and we don't know how dreams work. (59:27) I would say the It's less about doing the rigorous logical entailment and more about Reflecting speaking and Listening so for young people giving them the room to practice and see Someone say oh I hear what Susie said was And we loop back what Susie said, and then we say what do you think about what Susie said?(59:56) And so there's a training in instead of being like well Susie is dumb. (1:00:01) No Let's we got to train this. (1:00:04) It's not Susie's not dumb Susie's idea you might not like that doesn't mean Susie's dumb.(1:00:11) So why didn't you like Susie's idea? (1:00:14) So the facilitator is always moving the conversation to the process of listening and speaking reflecting Around these bigger questions that I think younger people are already engaging with.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:00:29) Yep This has been awesome. (1:00:31) Sean.

Sean Waters

(1:00:31) I really appreciate your time and You coming on do you have any closing thoughts or things you think we might have missed I Don't I feel like the emphasis on practical philosophy as a day-to-day Process and ego training as That's good, that was nice Awesome.

Marcus Arredondo

(1:00:52) Thank you, Sean.

Sean Waters

(1:00:53) Yeah. (1:00:53) Thank you

Marcus Arredondo

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