Scales Of Success Podcast

#60 - After the Win: Purpose, Identity, and Burnout with Justin Wills

• Marcus Arredondo

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What do you do when the goal that drove you is gone?

In today’s episode, Marcus welcomes Justin Wills, founder, executive, advisor, and investor with a deep focus on community, technology, and art, and a driving force behind the revival of Luna Luna. Justin shares the rarely discussed side of building, exiting, and starting again, including burnout, identity shifts, creative instinct, and learning to trust what feels right when the noise gets loud.

This conversation is for founders, creatives, and leaders navigating ambition, purpose, and longevity. It is not about hacks or hype. It is about endurance, energy, and choosing work that can sustain you long after the win.

About Justin Wills:
Website: https://justinwills.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinwills/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justincwills/ 

Episode highlights:
(2:22) How Society6 was born
(7:56) Why the founding team worked and took risks with family
(15:18) Hunger and trust
(25:06) The shock after a big exit
(30:58) When money replaces meaning and why people and teams matter
(35:30) Luna Luna and lost art revived
(41:21) Buying Luna Luna sight unseen
(46:26) From big vision to reality
(51:28) Building and advising new ventures
(55:54) Burnout, balance, and recovery
(1:02:46) Outro

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Note: The transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors.

Justin Wills

(0:00) really try to understand what it is that you do well, and what you can bring to something, besides just being like, you know, the person that will always pick up the phone, always write the email, always get in there and do whatever has to be done. (0:13) There's some other things about understanding what's unique about you, so that you can cultivate that. (0:19) And that you can that that that thing that you do well can have enough kind of energy to it, that it's helpful, and that you can contribute so you don't, you don't burn yourself out.

Marcus Arredondo

(0:27) Today's guest is my friend, Justin Wills, co-founder of Society6, the force behind reviving LunaLuna, and someone who's lived through both the adrenaline of building something from nothing and the disorientation that follows success. (0:39) What struck me most is how honestly he talks about the early days, building a company without a business model, no office, no employees, just conviction and trust in his partners. (0:48) He discusses the burnout after the sale of his company for close to $100 million, the identity loss that followed, and why meaningful work often comes from listening to what feels right, not what looks smart.(0:58) We talk about how rediscovering his creative instinct, including the moment he uncovered LunaLuna like a lost treasure, helped him to rebuild. (1:05) Justin's story is a reminder that purpose isn't created by pursuing success, it's discovered by following your curiosity. (1:11) Let's start the show.(1:13) Justin, welcome. (1:14) Thank you. (1:15) Glad to be here.(1:16) You and I have known each other for a while now, but you and I have never had the chance to sit down and for me to ask you questions about a number of things. (1:23) I want to talk about LunaLuna. (1:25) I had no idea you were involved with it until much well after it became a publicized thing, so I was blown away that that's something you were involved with.(1:35) I want to talk about ArtHouse and what you're doing there. (1:41) I met you around the time immediately following the sale (1:45) of Society6, and I want to kick that off there because there's a bunch of things (1:49) relative to that sale, but yes, on the business side that I have questions about, (1:54) but on the personal side that I don't think many people get to talk about, and I've never (1:58) asked you about it, so I'm personally interested in it, but I think there's benefit to any (2:04) entrepreneur or anybody having gone through setbacks or some significant windfalls. (2:12) If we could just start there, if you can give some background, I know this obviously, but what is Society6 and what was the genesis of that?

Justin Wills

(2:22) Sure. (2:23) We created Society6 initially. (2:26) We just wanted to create a space for artists and creative people to be able to share their work online, and that was early 2009, so there weren't really a lot of spaces for that at the time.(2:39) We just wanted to create an opportunity for artists to get to what they wanted to share. (2:44) Instagram, all that stuff hadn't really kicked off much. (2:49) It was really about community, about connecting people, and about people showcasing their creativity and their work and getting some support for that.(2:57) But we quickly found that the thing a lot of our community members were excited about were opportunities that they would have to have their artwork on products or to get it featured in magazines or to get some exposure and some sort of tangible commercial benefit. (3:10) We'd attracted a lot of illustrators, photographers, graphic designers, people that really kind of craved that. (3:17) At the same time, we saw that it was difficult to just scale that up so that it was big enough that it could support itself financially as just a network.(3:29) We just had an epiphany one day that we have all these files, we already have all this great stuff from people. (3:36) We could start printing these things on demand on our prints to start with and kind of give the community what they want and also have a revenue stream and a way to kind of have a business around this. (3:48) So we had kind of thought about our mission and our purpose and doing something for artists and creative people before we kind of figured out what the business would be around that, which tends to be something that happens to me a lot and something we can kind of talk about more.(4:02) And then things timed up really nicely for us in terms of the technologies that were becoming available where you could do print on demand products with a lot of these digital files from artists and have them feel like polished, mass-produced products that were of good enough quality that people were excited about that. (4:22) So it ended up being a community and a platform for artists and then flourished into a print-on-demand e-commerce platform for them. (4:30) And it happened quickly.(4:31) It sort of went really fast from that moment until it was 2013 when we closed the sale of it. (4:38) And part of that was that we had kind of set up a model of wanting to not have any offices, not have any employees, not have any inventory. (4:46) And there was just three of us working on this project.(4:49) And that was like a kind of a foundational principle for us in doing this because we had all worked in situations where the opposite was true. (4:57) There was a lot of fundraising, a lot of fancy offices and tons of people and a lot of cash burn. (5:02) And so we were trying to do the opposite of that.(5:04) And I think at some point we kind of outgrew that model. (5:07) And I think that's when we decided we could either shift ourselves or we would sell the company.

Marcus Arredondo

(5:13) So I appreciate you laying that out there because I don't want to bury the lead for the audience, but that ended up selling, you said in 2013, but that was for a hundred million bucks, give or take. (5:22) For sure. (5:23) A little bit less than that.(5:24) And it was you and three other founders, maybe.

Justin Wills

(5:27) Myself and two other founders. (5:28) And we did have an investor who did take a decent portion of that was Threadless, which was like the online t-shirt community.

Marcus Arredondo

(5:37) But you didn't take them on until sort of later in the development of the concept. (5:42) It had already proven its concept out prior to that, right?

Justin Wills

(5:46) Yeah. (5:46) I mean, to some degree, right. (5:47) We were having some, you know, some success.(5:53) It wasn't wild yet, but we were having a lot of success, particularly with a similar artist that they were working with. (5:59) And a lot of the people that worked at their, a lot of their artists also worked at their company. (6:04) And so they started to see people who worked there using something else.(6:08) And I think that there was some excitement and maybe some anxiety around that. (6:12) And so we got a strategic investment from them pretty early on. (6:16) And it was a difficult time because it was right after the financial crisis.(6:20) So it was not, not, people were not handing out a lot of speculative money to people.

Marcus Arredondo

(6:26) That's exactly where I was going. (6:27) So like 2009, 2010, I mean, the world was sort of in shambles. (6:32) Yeah.(6:33) eBay was maybe the next best competitor. (6:35) Etsy hadn't been around before, you know, with you guys that followed you, right?

Justin Wills

(6:40) Yeah. (6:41) Yeah. (6:41) And it was, and it was, we were raising money too.(6:43) We didn't, hadn't really, we first started raising money. (6:46) We didn't have the business figured out and, you know, so it was, it was even more difficult. (6:51) And then once we kind of figured out our own way to do it and had gotten some traction with print on demand in our community, we weren't sort of desperately trying to raise a ton of money.(7:02) I think we just saw this strategic opportunity and we needed a certain amount of capital, but we didn't really have a proven model and then go out and really shop it around after that and try to raise a ton of money. (7:14) We didn't really want to get in that situation. (7:16) We saw that there was just a good, you know, some good crossover with them.(7:21) They already had a community. (7:22) So we would get community members and we would get some other kind of strategic components along with, with money. (7:28) So we, we preferred the strategic money over just money at that point.(7:31) But yeah, initially it was very, it was very rough. (7:34) I mean, I moved my family up to Oregon. (7:37) Our daughter was going into high school.(7:38) It was like, you know, really kind of tightened everything up as we can live in Portland, Oregon, really cheaply. (7:43) Like we can just live off of our savings for a little while. (7:46) I mean, it was a, it was kind of a scary, scary time to do that.

Marcus Arredondo

(7:50) Why Portland? (7:51) Cause it, uh, no, was it a sales tax or something that was the driver? (7:56) You know, I don't know.

Justin Wills

(7:57) I can't say I have like a great explanation for why it was there. (8:00) I've been going up there for some, I had some clients, I worked with Nike and Adidas at the prior company. (8:06) And so I was up there a lot and I thought it just was, seemed really laid back.(8:10) I like the vibe up there. (8:11) And yeah, I mean, there's no sales tax, but then everything is just, not only is there a sales tax, but like people aren't driving new cars. (8:17) Like everything was just kind of cheaper in general.(8:21) Um, and there was nice public schools and it just felt like an adventure a little bit to kind of through the cats in the car, like drove to Oregon. (8:29) I don't know. (8:30) It was, uh, it was beautiful and it was a great time to be there, but I, it wasn't, I don't know.(8:36) It was a little random.

Marcus Arredondo

(8:37) So 2009 you're man, I, I gotta do rough math here, but you're mid thirties, somewhere in that range.

Justin Wills

(8:46) Yeah. (8:46) I guess I was like 34 maybe.

Marcus Arredondo

(8:50) So I got a, I got a, a few questions that you can pick and choose or sort of combine them. (8:55) However you want to sort of address this, but things that are have crossed my mind before the sale that I want to talk about sort of next, but it's how was it working with friends? (9:07) Do you have a comment about what it's like partnering, uh, creatively and financially?(9:13) And I think you, you had a prior, (9:15) uh, professional relationship with these people, but, you know, you know, combining that long-term (9:21) comments about partnering with people, you have friendly relationships, what it's like in your (9:26) mid thirties to effectively start over, not just from a career standpoint and having something (9:32) start up, uh, you know, I'm sure you had savings or what have you, but like, this is a whole new (9:37) venture and you're placing an enormous stake in the outcomes of this venture.(9:43) And then third, doing that all while being a father, you know, of, of a child at a very critical point in their life.

Justin Wills

(9:53) Yeah, no, it was a lot. (9:55) Um, the, uh, you know, I would say the two guys that I worked with, we weren't friends first, we had, we had worked together. (10:03) We had both worked at a place called ADD marketing and are like late twenties.(10:08) Um, and one of my partners was, um, you know, we'd brought him on, he was doing, you know, we're doing websites for like video game companies and stuff like that. (10:17) And a lot of like marketing microsites and he, uh, you know, he was a special person. (10:23) Like he just was one of these few engineers who also was creative.(10:28) He could do front end back end. (10:29) He's would do it all himself. (10:30) He built himself his own, you know, PHP platform for making software on top of that for himself.(10:38) He just like built this thing. (10:39) So the guy was just really, really capable, really fast. (10:44) Um, my other partner, Justin, he had also worked at ADD marketing.(10:48) He was kind of more on the sales side. (10:50) He was a great sales guy. (10:52) Um, but he also was like deep down an artist and actually he's a practicing fine artist now.(10:56) Like that's, you know, what he really wanted to get to. (10:59) But I think I would say one of the things that it wasn't necessarily that we were friends first, I think there was sort of a competitive respect with us. (11:08) And it was like, I always felt like I wanted to, and maybe out of, I don't know, a variety of reasons, but I just always felt like I wanted to bring my best with these guys and that I was somehow never performing at their level.(11:21) And I feel like on, they've mentioned too, that they sort of felt the same drive to like bring their best to this group. (11:27) And so the three of us just had this, you know, we set the conditions for what we were doing really well, which was the three of us, we were equal partners. (11:34) We were all at a moment in our careers where we had tried a few things, done some things.(11:39) And we just wanted to bet on artists and art and creativity and just take a crack at doing this. (11:46) And yeah, there was just this kind of drive to like, work really hard and always bring your best and they were really good. (11:53) And we all wanted to solve problems really efficiently and quickly and make decisions quickly.(11:57) So we were like, on pace with one another all the time. (12:00) And I think we all liked that. (12:03) And so certainly we conflict.(12:04) I mean, it was very stressful to kind of do this thing for all of us, like to kind of give up whatever money we were making. (12:11) And the other my other partner, Justin had a family too. (12:14) So we were, we were certainly taking risks.(12:15) And that could be stressful at times. (12:17) But again, I think there was this underlying sense that like, you're on a team where you trust your teammate and you feel like your teammate, when they're given the ball, they're going to score like they're getting you want to score when you get the ball and you want to do what you can to help them. (12:29) And there's just, we had worked together enough to know that but we weren't friends first where it was like, yeah, as personal and about our relationship.(12:37) And there really wasn't anything at stake other than not being successful. (12:42) And as far as like, where I was in my life, I mean, I had, you know, I met my wife when I was 24. (12:48) And she had a four year old.(12:49) So I've been kind of early parenting, but also kind of step parenting. (12:54) And I guess I'd had a few jobs and done some stuff, but I never felt like I could work for somebody else, or that I knew what my job would ever be when I was somewhere. (13:02) Yep.(13:02) So I had a sense that I had to like make my own way and do something and art and creativity. (13:08) And that that was always, you know, something that I'd been really passionate about without really having attacked that necessarily before. (13:18) But I've been a creative director, I'd worked with creative people, I kind of felt like I wanted to be an advocate for them and for for creativity at large.(13:28) And as far as like, you know, I wasn't actually making a lot of money, I didn't have a lot of savings, but I had a great family who kind of didn't ask for a whole lot. (13:36) And so it just felt like they were on board with the risk. (13:40) And then personally, we had been my wife and I had tried to have another baby together and we were not able to for quite a while.(13:47) And that had been really difficult. (13:50) And so I think I was like, also, I had gotten a little pissed off. (13:54) Like I'd had a pretty good, you know, my life had been, I think, pretty easy.(13:58) And, you know, when I was younger, and my parents were great and family took care of me and got to go to a good school and do all these things and things that kind of come fairly easily. (14:07) And I think this is the first time that I really wanted something badly, and I wasn't getting it. (14:11) And I was mad, you know, as mad as hell.(14:13) And I was like, I'm going to go. (14:15) And I remember with Society6, the early days of it, when I wasn't sure if it was going to, we weren't sure if it was working and what we're going to do. (14:21) And I felt a very deep commitment to doing it.(14:26) And I was going to do it. (14:27) Even if my partners quit, even if we couldn't do this stuff, I felt like, you know, I felt like, I felt like I sort of, you know, I wasn't like I was owed it. (14:37) But I just I felt for the first time that like, I was going to go down swinging with this thing.(14:41) And no one was going to take it away from me because I was that excited about it. (14:45) And I felt sort of like, pissed off enough that I was that was going to go get it. (14:50) And I needed that I needed that, that hunger to go do it.(14:53) And again, fortunately, my wife and my daughter were like game for for that adventure. (14:59) And that these are these two people around me who I just, just some of the smartest people I know in terms of problem solving and, and the speed at which they're willing to work and how hard they were willing to work to do it.

Marcus Arredondo

(15:11) You guys didn't have a clear idea on how you were going to monetize this the way you ultimately did or you tell me we did it.

Justin Wills

(15:19) I mean, we almost made like Indiegogo or like, we were initially trying to my wife Tatiana had done, you know, she had gotten an opportunity to do like a big art show somewhere with her photography, but she couldn't, we couldn't afford to like, you know, print all the prints and frame everything like it was pretty expensive and then ship it that was kind of on the artist. (15:41) So initially, we were looking at some of these kind of support crowdfunding support solutions where like, you know, people who loved her photography could, you know, provide money like an Indiegogo so she could have enough money to go to the show. (15:56) And I think we just initially we didn't love all the potential fraud and all the other stuff that we'd have to sort of manage along with doing that.(16:04) And so yeah, we had no idea what the monetization would be. (16:07) And we just were building community. (16:09) And we were building we started by building an international community, which I think was really kind of a key part of it like we did.(16:17) We're manually recruiting people, going out finding people on the web whose work we loved and just inviting them to this and we had a 50% non US membership in this international community. (16:29) And so it was this really wonderful place where artists and designers were just posting really cool work that you might not see anywhere else. (16:36) And they were from all over the world.(16:37) And that I think built something special from the get go. (16:42) And then again, as we saw an opportunity to do print on demand products for those people, it just it just really kind of took off from there.

Marcus Arredondo

(16:49) What I find sort of I guess I keep getting stuck on this because you know, you talk to like younger (16:55) people who might be trying to get into something they they want to find their purpose they want (17:00) to find like you know what drives them whatever that might be and I think there's like a mislabel (17:06) in that you that sort of reveals itself you know like it's not like you're not following your (17:12) dream the dream presents itself as you start working through things and you start to identify (17:17) what doesn't work and then what does work starts to draw it draw you toward it or you start to (17:24) sort of pick away at it and it reveals itself. (17:27) And I kept thinking about that as you're talking (17:29) about how you eventually became you know you're able to monetize this and have this terrific sale (17:35) and you know it looks really great in the headlines but in the weeds that's a lot of trial (17:40) and error that's a lot of late nights I'm sure you know the outreach that you're alluding to (17:44) I never even thought of which is you know to recruit these artists to the platform (17:49) and I guess you know looking back or if you were to talk to somebody younger like how do you how (17:55) do you view not just yes I'm sort of conflating it and they're not equal but you know how you (18:01) monetized society six but how do you suggest getting to the point and I think artists tend (18:07) to have a better feel for this generally in my opinion because it's not that they're impervious (18:12) to outside input but they they have to listen to themselves so much that they have a greater sense (18:18) of their own internal voice probably more so than many others just by virtue of the fact that they're (18:24) having to produce something from inside of them right so there's like this artistic quality that (18:29) for better or worse leads you to have a better sense of trust in your own your own voice your

Justin Wills

(18:35) own instincts yeah it's a degree of sensitivity I mean I think that's what most art and creativity (18:40) is about is about listening to that and being different people have different levels of (18:45) sensitivity to certain things that they that come in and that they pay attention to well let me ask

Marcus Arredondo

(18:50) you this so as you listen to that and you get more you your sensitivity to your own voice and (18:54) sort of that becomes clearer how do you balance that with the outside voices I mean you know did (18:59) you have any resistance from it sounds like your family was really supportive but yeah did you have (19:04) uh other people saying you're wasting your time did you have people saying well I mean I think

Justin Wills

(19:09) what initially you were asking about like young people and like I mean I think the difficulty (19:13) obviously the challenge is if you go and you take other people's money and you do things like that (19:17) then you you have an obligation to to those voices so I think fortunately again I go back (19:22) to like setting the conditions like the three of us just were like all right just give me the three (19:26) of us we're doing everything virtually you know we're not going to take venture capital money (19:31) like we had some we made some choices about what would be in our world because we wanted to have (19:39) um we wanted to have choice we want to have those decisions and we wanted to be able to keep it clean (19:43) and simple um and I think that allowed us to iterate that way and to sort of find our path (19:49) but yeah I think it would be a very fragile situation had anything been different I think had (19:55) you know had the three of us not been capable of all of that we need all that we needed to (19:59) accomplish I think that's a big thing sometimes teams get together and they're missing like a (20:02) core competency that you need to do what you're doing and so then of course you need money or (20:07) you need this other person and how do you and things get complicated so it was it was equal (20:11) we could do what we needed to do we'd kind of kept voices out that we thought could be (20:16) disruptive um but yeah I think about this a lot like if I was married to a different person they (20:21) might have said hey this is like I'm not moving to Oregon so you can reduce our you know how much (20:27) our life is so that we can do this thing I don't even know what your business is and when you'll (20:32) make money or that could have been there um yeah I mean there's times when people are like I don't (20:37) what are you doing like I don't understand what this is and you hear that um and you need you (20:42) need to have that determination I think on the flip side of that sometimes people have bad ideas (20:46) and they stay with them too long so like when do you when do you get out of something and I think

Marcus Arredondo

(20:50) going with this is like how much do you trust yourself and how much do you let outside input (20:54) you know you have to have sort of a barometer right or so yeah or you just don't I mean it

Justin Wills

(20:59) depends like I said if you feel that you can if you have people who are capable and you're all (21:03) committed to doing this you're figuring this out until you know it's not going to be over until (21:09) you quit like I think if you have you know some smart people and that you're thinking really (21:14) clearly about it I don't think that there is too long but yeah it's tough it's difficult I don't (21:20) I don't think there's like one answer to that I think but I guess I do I do find myself repeatedly (21:26) getting excited about something that I want to do around like people and art and creativity and (21:33) I think that like what how will this make money and what business will this will have comes (21:38) afterwards and I think there's a lot of great people out there people I respect and you know (21:43) sometimes would like to be a little more like where I can like just see the business thing first and (21:48) then you know yeah add the excitement the interest later but to me it's I get drawn to things I guess (21:55) with my own sensitivity and interest like something hits me and makes me feel a certain way (22:01) and then I now recognize that feeling enough to know like these this is one of these situations (22:06) where I give this everything I have yeah and and it doesn't happen all the time but it's you know (22:11) it's happening I think for at least like a third time and I can feel that and I go with that that

Marcus Arredondo

(22:17) feeling you know well I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you about this later but just you know plant the seed (22:22) in the back of your head because I'm curious you know you guys seem to have gotten a lot of inertia (22:26) you know like whether you were monetizing at the rate that you needed to or not there was a rapid (22:30) increase in users and in artists um so you could see the volume of traffic going up religiously (22:38) and so there's you know that by itself is something that suggests hey there's something (22:43) working here but I I always wonder like you know if that had been in a different time period or (22:49) if you were three years earlier or something different you know how long do you keep running (22:53) on that treadmill before you're like fuck man this is just uh this is just isn't working right now

Justin Wills

(22:59) um and I don't know by the way it felt like that like in the day-to-day it felt like it was like (23:05) this isn't working this isn't good enough but it seems pretty quick but at the same time like you (23:10) know every day you're getting up and you're like shit like is this enough orders is this enough

Marcus Arredondo

(23:13) where's this going this isn't big enough you got up to it was 25 million in revenue um and that's (23:20) within four years which is incredible uh and this is 2009 dollars too uh which is a considerable

Justin Wills

(23:27) difference right I mean all with organic no advertising like all organic marketing that's (23:32) incredible but you're also paying bear in mind like we were sending people money so sure like (23:37) once the platform started pushing money out to people then those people are getting checks and (23:42) they're talking about it and they're excited so right I think if I think that helps a lot (23:47) when something's spitting money out yeah well I feel like we could talk about this for well over

Marcus Arredondo

(23:53) an hour but I want to give uh I don't want to be disrespectful to Society6 because I think it's an (23:58) incredible story uh but I want to talk about some of your other project but before I do I think one (24:02) of the critical things that I've always been fascinated by not just you but in any circumstance (24:07) we've all had wins before but you had a hell of a win like that's a that's that's life-changing (24:12) sort of a win where you know you're at a point now having to make decisions that you (24:18) you have to approach them from an entirely different set of principles you know maybe (24:24) you go from from growth to preservation like I don't know what it is for you but (24:29) how would you uh I would welcome any sort of takeaways ideas that you had during that time (24:36) frame but from the lens of what do people not talk about when that event happens how (24:43) would you advise somebody because I I I'm not in your shoes but I can imagine there's a big degree (24:49) of loneliness um when that happens where all of a sudden the people that are close to you (24:55) are still close but maybe they they're not the same counsel that they once were (25:00) as it relates to you know what what do I do now not just with my life but also with the

Justin Wills

(25:05) windfall that I have yeah no I mean you're absolutely right it was um I guess like the (25:10) sports analogies you outkick the coverage like you're just you're out there I think what what (25:15) people I you know I had been working you know and my partners had done this too we'd sort of thrown (25:20) everything at this right like you know all the risk we were just three people you know once we'd (25:26) sold the company there was like four and 40 people doing the work we were doing so we were we were (25:30) pretty tired like we were you know physically burned out mentally you know psychologically (25:35) pretty tired and we were working towards this windfall and I think we could you know maybe feel (25:39) you know 18 months out that there was something here and so we were really striving to that but (25:44) yeah what no one prepares you for is you know there's nobody to turn to and be like all right (25:50) what do I do now like I didn't have anybody within my immediate circle everybody just thinks oh well (25:56) this great thing's happening so you don't have to worry about anything anymore and um you know (26:00) there certainly are you know I didn't have hadn't really made any much money before that I mean I (26:06) was able to like keep keep the lights on with my wife and daughter but like I wasn't you know making (26:11) a lot of money before so I went from very little to having a bunch and not really necessarily (26:14) knowing what to do with that um we we had a baby we we moved cities we had this windfall our daughter (26:21) graduated high school I had like a just a whole series of things that were kind of positive but (26:26) they all happened at once which was like completely overwhelming um and you can't turn to somebody and (26:31) be like god this is over I don't know what to do with this it's just like fuck you man you got (26:34) just like go enjoy your money and do all these things and so um but there is a bit of so there's (26:40) a bit of alienation I think that comes with that because then you know you don't have anything to (26:45) do on Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday and all your friends are off and I didn't have enough (26:51) money to be like all right everybody we're going to it wasn't like a billion dollars I'd be like (26:55) all right everybody we're going to the Maldives together and I'm just paying for everybody for a (26:59) month like nobody could do anything everybody's like working or they're having babies and I'm like (27:03) kind of sitting at home on a Monday or Tuesday and I'm like shit what am I supposed to do with (27:07) myself and um so there's a little bit of that and then you know I think the thing that yeah you (27:13) sort of lose your purpose like we had built this thing that was meaningful like these (27:17) the community meant a lot to me like these are this is some it was pretty cool to have a (27:21) you know it wasn't Facebook but we had you know half a million creative people that you could just (27:26) reach out to all the time and a few million customers and you kind of feel like you've got (27:30) you know something at your fingertips and you know you you lose that and you you kind of you (27:35) miss that a little bit and I wasn't expecting that to kind of make me a little sad for a couple years (27:41) you know to find that purpose and and how do you how do you do that I had one friend who helped me (27:47) kind of navigate how I dialed my time down after we sold it because initially I was just so tired (27:53) we'd had the baby our family was like you know not in distress but we just we were overwhelmed (28:00) they needed me more and I needed to do you know focus on my family so I kind of part of me was (28:05) just like I sold this thing I just want to leave like I don't want to yeah I don't want to I can't (28:09) do this anymore you know um and my buddies was just like listen just you know take your time (28:13) but like work yourself slowly out of there make sure it's in good hands you can only you can only (28:19) leave and be done once like just do it with your head held high walk out of there in a way that (28:24) you can see anyone you saw from this experience and feel you know a sense of pride and dignity (28:29) and like just try to you know just try to hang in there and and do it do it right and that was (28:35) really good advice that I got from somebody right because there's only one moment where it's going (28:39) to be over and that's what people will remember you know is how to yeah how to adjust and kind (28:44) of leave after and how did he help with the handoff and stuff like that so I kind of stuck that out (28:48) but yeah finding my purpose again after that I was a little bit you know it also had been an (28:53) isolating project you know even though we'd had a community like back in 2009 2010 like a lot of (29:01) these virtual things really weren't that established a lot of other people weren't (29:05) working remotely they weren't building communities like we had been using google you know we were (29:10) using like google meet uh it's early iteration for to work together the three of us were never in the (29:14) same room making society six so I had done a lot of this stuff before a lot of people were doing that (29:20) and so as a result we hadn't I hadn't built a lot of like physical community and like physical (29:25) networks with it outside of society six was everything and so I felt a little isolated (29:31) and that too I had my buddies my school friends and some people I knew we moved back to Los Angeles (29:36) but I didn't feel like I had a big network of like people to sort of toss ideas around with (29:42) and you know so there was a there was certainly a bit of that isolation and and a little bit of (29:48) loneliness from that but you can't complain about that to anybody because nobody wants nobody wants (29:52) to hear about it um so I kind of had to sort of do a little bit of that work myself and and work (29:57) through it and you know it was uh it took it took a long time frankly it took years for me to feel

Marcus Arredondo

(30:04) like myself again so I want to expand on that like and I can't help but think about um I mean purpose (30:10) and identity because you know for for years you're and I don't know if you you this is how you felt (30:16) but I have for a long period of time I conflated my identity with you know what I was doing um (30:23) professionally sure and uh when things go south and you know you it's a tough thing to decouple (30:33) those two things I also think it's unhealthy to a large degree to tether so much I mean I think (30:37) we're better off tethering your identity to to something more evolving you also end up becoming (30:43) defensive about certain things because you know you identify with it so much rather than it being (30:48) maybe a part of your identity rather than the identity itself and I guess if you have any (30:54) comment on that I mean did you experience any of that following I mean 100 yeah I mean there is a

Justin Wills

(31:00) loss of like identity and purpose like that had been my thing I got this cool project that I'm you (31:06) know really really nicely in control of with these two other guys we can do what we want design-wise (31:13) community-wise it feels good and then you you surrender that in exchange for a bunch of money (31:18) and then it is money my identity now like is that right you know do you yeah you and I'm sure there (31:24) are people out there maybe who are more confident or kind of maybe done done some of this work (31:29) before that that might have navigated that a little bit better but I yeah I was I was pretty (31:33) lost you know I felt like it was uh it was it was difficult but you know and learning to it depends (31:40) too because I think part of the reason I did stuff like this was I didn't really know who I was (31:45) anyway like I wasn't a sure my mom was a lawyer my dad was a doctor so I felt like you're either (31:50) I was like you're either a doctor or a lawyer and if you're not like what are you doing I don't (31:54) understand or maybe you're in finance like what's your job you know and I hadn't done anything (31:59) specific at a high level where I felt like okay this is who I am I'm a fill in the blank you know (32:05) and I fortunately I had a career of like being a generalist and learning a lot of different things (32:09) which is really helpful in starting a business but and running a business and then you can (32:14) accumulate more knowledge as a generalist and and work with great people but that's a difficult thing (32:21) to understand when you're young that like that's a solid identity I think it actually wasn't until (32:26) I saw my son as he got older and saw him as a an interesting generalist that I realized that that (32:35) was okay and good like for like that was the one time when I was like wow he's that's maybe I'm (32:40) like that where I like can do a lot of different things pretty well but it isn't about me just (32:45) having this one thing that I'm excellent at that everyone you know attributes to me and that that (32:49) gives me my identity so I guess the the answer is that I've never had and I I haven't had the (32:56) opportunity of having a clear professional identity that I associate with myself um but (33:04) that certainly gave me one and then sort of was gone and and so I probably was yeah I was lost (33:10) trying to figure out who I am I did do some writing right after that I was like I'd kind of (33:14) done some screenwriting when I was young and my wife was like you know maybe you should take another (33:18) crack at that so I did that for a little bit but that was a little too isolating for me but what

Marcus Arredondo

(33:24) did you find from the writing though tell me more about that process do you um do you think you (33:29) found more uh more of what you know lay underneath so to speak well I think it was an opportunity to

Justin Wills

(33:36) try to give myself a specific identity on something that I could do I think you know I've spent a lot (33:42) of time like enabling other people to to do things they love to do whether it's art particularly in (33:47) art and creativity so I was like well what if I could get good at this thing then I could tell (33:51) people I'm this thing and then I'm like a then I know what then I can have an identity again (33:55) so it might have been sort of some of that um there were certainly some like I got to write some (34:01) funny things and I enjoyed like getting my sense of humor down on paper um which I kind of hadn't (34:07) gotten to do before so so that was helpful but um ultimately I think it was just like I actually did (34:13) learn a lot about myself which is that I need to be around people and that I love people and so I (34:18) was when I found out about Luna Luna one of the things about that I was excited about you know (34:23) building a team and being around other people and and doing something that wasn't just virtual (34:28) so it was kind of trying to solve some other things in my life by doing this kind of big (34:35) you know in-person people-focused project that I felt that that would kind of bring some of (34:42) the remedies of like what wasn't didn't work for me with Society6 and then also clearly being in (34:47) our office by myself all day is not enough like um and also just it kind of hit my heart and and (34:54) kind of drew me to it but I think there was a lot of that like I love I love people and being around (34:58) people.

Marcus Arredondo

(34:59) Tell me more about Luna Luna. (35:00) How did you get involved with that project? (35:02) I've read a little (35:03) bit about when it was sort of coming out um a lot of this I didn't know and I sort of found out (35:10) sort of in in preparation for for this conversation but it's that's a fascinating (35:15) sort of it's insane it's insane coming back to life I mean can you just give us give the audience (35:22) some context for what Luna Luna was uh before you got reiterated and then how that was refound (35:28) and then how you got involved.

Justin Wills

(35:30) So it's a it was an art amusement park that was open in 1987 in (35:36) Hamburg, Germany for a summer and it was put together by an Austrian art you know polymath (35:43) artist uh Andre Heller um who had been you know it's just been sort of a maverick Austrian creative (35:51) guy I think he was like the son of a sort of a candy family or something like that and but it (35:58) had this kind of dark and and dreary father like post-war Austria you know and and so he wanted to (36:04) like he was really kind of you know all about joy and and spreading joy and kind of bringing (36:10) some brightness into this like post-war you know part of the world um and he'd done everything like (36:16) operas to like African music things to like fine art painting himself he was just a real (36:22) a real wild uh artist on his own right and he like late 70s you know uh had this idea to create (36:30) he sort of looked at amusement parks as moving sculptures and he thought this would be wonderful (36:36) if he could bring artists into sort of create rides and attractions with art on them and that (36:42) people could experience this and kind of feel and experience art in a more tangible immediate way (36:48) instead of in a museum in a in a kind of academic sense and he was a bit of an outcast in his like (36:53) Austrian you know elite community and creative community because of that he was you know a (36:59) informal and a little little wild and he had kind of made his way I think initially um one of the (37:05) people that helped him with that was was Andy Warhol he knew Andy Warhol and Warhol introduced (37:09) him to Basquiat and Herring and Roy Lichtenstein and he kind of networked his way through a lot of (37:15) those artists and somehow convinced them to you know it was the 80s and they were all uh kind of (37:21) up and coming uh to some degree I mean Salvador Dali was obviously a known name at that point but (37:26) had it you know is a really charismatic guy got all these folks these artists to create (37:32) artworks um some of them painted directly onto these things I mean Keith Herring went to went (37:37) to Germany and painted onto the carousel Basquiat gave Andre some some drawings and they were then (37:44) applied by the Vienna Opera House art department onto a hundred year old Ferris wheel um so it was (37:50) open people rode the rides it was apparently like a crazy psychedelic you know manic event (37:56) people spilling out into the streets um but he cut you know he ran out of money it was it was hard (38:03) to hard to keep the lights on and and so he kind of had to find a he was working with the city of (38:08) Vienna to perhaps for them to buy it there were some politics there they didn't that kind of fell (38:12) through and somehow he got connected with a a foundation in San Diego called the Birch Foundation (38:19) and they had been like the heirs to who had they had owned a whole bunch of land in near San Diego (38:25) that had been ranch land and they just were selling off these parcels and they do a lot of (38:30) do a lot of giving particularly in like the medical field and stuff and for some reason they (38:34) wanted to they were excited about this project and they wanted to bring it to Balboa Park in San Diego (38:39) and build a build a home for this and they were going to add rides and all this stuff and and (38:43) that deal fell through in the early 90s and Andre and this party got into a lawsuit over that (38:50) transaction it took about I think 10 years for that to be settled and the buyer lost and (38:56) ultimately had to kind of pay for Luna Luna and and bring it to the United States in these shipping (39:01) containers but at that point they didn't really really didn't want it and didn't know what to do (39:05) with it I mean they loved it they loved Andre at the end of the day but I think they were just (39:09) it's a lot um 42 shipping containers worth of amusement park rides and so they just parked it (39:16) um on a ranch in Texas on some land that the foundation owned um from I think it was like (39:24) yeah it was like 2007 until um 2022 so when we when we ultimately took possession and brought (39:31) it to a studio in downtown LA I had let's see I had right after the sale of Society6 (39:38) Tatiana and I went to Art Basel and we were like doing our first I'd always collected art uh but (39:44) usually collected like screen prints and things like that we're like let's go you know check out (39:47) some real art and we bought a piece that we loved from um from a woman that we met there and it (39:54) turned out her um her husband was is an art attorney um who was kind of at the time I was (40:01) kind of working on a little bit of a family research project with about it about a certain (40:05) artist and um I became friends with him and we became friends with you know his wife and um and (40:12) so he and I had this you know well part of my writing that I was doing was around like art art (40:16) crimes and art thieves and art cops and so I kind of had always had this interest in lost art and (40:22) that kind of stuff and he knew a lot about these topics um because he's an art attorney and he kind (40:27) of he specializes in a lot of art transactions but he also has known some you know he knows all those (40:32) folks that may be involved in an art transaction that goes poorly or an art theft or the recovery (40:37) of art um so we had like a fascinating relationship around that stuff probably from like 2014 to um (40:44) 2019 he and I were out at a a show and he told me about Luna Luna so he had gotten asked to kind of (40:52) help Andre Heller buy back Luna Luna uh and he thought I would be interested because of Society (40:59) 6 and working with artists on merchandise and and products and and uh it just sounded like (41:05) you know it was like this thing that just kind of came out of nowhere I think you know in the year (41:09) before that I was like I really need to find something new I want to you know I want to get (41:14) back out there and like be involved in some things I was doing some advisory work working with some (41:18) startups and trying to get my feet wet again and get off the bench and and and there was this thing (41:23) it just sounded kind of wild and crazy and um it blew my mind and and so we you know we spent that (41:30) time trying to figure out who could help us buy this back you know with Andre Heller and meanwhile (41:36) Drake his production company was also interested in it through another person that had shown it to (41:42) them Michael Goldberg and then in around I think 2021 the two parties came together and formed a (41:49) joint venture and and uh came up with the came up with the money to buy it.

Marcus Arredondo

(41:53) How did the two parties get connected? (41:55) Um because if you're circling it you you might not actually know who the other sort of players are looking to acquire.

Justin Wills

(42:02) Through Andre Heller so the other Drake's production (42:05) company was working with this guy named Michael Goldberg who runs a creative shop in New York (42:10) he was reaching out to Andre and Andre's like this guy's you know this this person keeps hitting me (42:16) up and he knows Drake and maybe we should talk to him so we just you know we all kind of met each (42:21) other and then you know they they wanted to bring Andre's group in and they were really good to (42:25) kind of him and getting him set up and keeping him involved and um so that was also I was like (42:31) okay now we're adding like crazy adding this element to to this already kind of star-studded (42:37) wild project like what is this what is this ride gonna be?

Marcus Arredondo

(42:41) Well what I was reading is that two things one that it had to be acquired sight and seen there was no due diligence allowed you can't you couldn't go through the containers and see what condition it was in.

Justin Wills

(42:51) We did do all our diligence on the documents which were in German so we had like contracts from the 80s we had some photos we had there was one repacking in 2007 before they shipped it to the Birch Foundation so it was a condition report to kind of see but the Birch had not opened it.

Marcus Arredondo

(43:10) You had no idea what they did with the Birch Foundation?

Justin Wills

(43:12) Well they didn't want to open it because they didn't want to be responsible for because they weren't going to do anything with it they're like we don't want to be responsible for what's inside or what's not inside so it was transferred to us and we're just going to put it you know in a place that we feel is safe and that's all we want to do um if we open it.

Marcus Arredondo

(43:29) Well as it was lifted I think it's something I read it was like you know gushes of water came

Justin Wills

(43:33) out and rattlesnakes fell out of the well yeah I mean my Daniel my my partner he had gone down at (43:40) one time to he had been uh allowed to open one container and that was a container that had some (43:45) some hardware in it I mean they had taken good care of the the artwork panels sure there was (43:50) just some like random hardware and some water had gotten into one of those um containers and he (43:54) you know that's like but fortunately yeah that was like you know it was like steel girders and (43:59) like frames and stuff like that.

Marcus Arredondo

(44:01) Well and then uh the second thing I had read was that it was it was a friction riddled uh negotiation until they found out that Drake was involved at which point it uh greased the wheels enough to get it over the final hop is that true?

Justin Wills

(44:15) I mean so yeah I (44:16) mean we had like we we'd been I mean we had been kind of reaching out to the attorney for them (44:22) the foundation for a while and you know they wouldn't they were they were very kind of uh (44:27) secretive they didn't want to talk too much until they knew something was there but you never know (44:32) we didn't know if that was like helpful or hurtful you know but fortunately they were you know they (44:38) were pretty reasonable like they had a price from the get-go they didn't change that price because (44:41) of who was involved and I think ultimately they felt what they really wanted was they wanted it (44:48) to go to a place where it would get taken care of and where people would be able to do something (44:53) with it I think you know I'm with a lot of these things people can show up and be like hey let me (44:57) grab this and I can pay you and I think they did they care about the capabilities of of the buyer.

Marcus Arredondo

(45:04) So fast forward what um you opened up the containers I mean I would imagine Andre being involved was pretty critical to understand how these pieces might go together you know what?

Justin Wills

(45:14) Well but it was COVID and and he uh he couldn't travel. (45:18) Oh man. (45:19) So and you know he's (45:20) you know he's an older gentleman too so he definitely didn't want to get COVID and so we had (45:24) to kind of open this stuff initially with like over zoom like I was like pushing a card around this like (45:30) laptop on it so he could see like he didn't really get to see that initial (45:33) opening um for you know when we were doing it but we opened the merchandise first which was (45:40) like really fun to open the because there was thousands and thousands of t-shirts and (45:44) original posters and that was a pretty pretty neat uh neat piece but about one or one or two (45:50) containers worth of original merch from the 80s so we opened that up first and then we started (45:56) pulling out the Basquiat um panels and things were in really good shape I mean it was like one (46:01) of these things you didn't know yeah what you'd get but it was it was great I mean there really (46:06) was very little where you were like shit what do we do you know and we had we had reproduction (46:12) rights so I think the one saving grace was like this is all terrible like right they could be (46:17) remade although that's you know not as cool as having the originals.

Marcus Arredondo

(46:22) So what uh take us from that point in 2020 to now?

Justin Wills

(46:26) So we were in the 2022 was when we got everything um and it took you know (46:31) it took a while to like pull everything out figure out how it all went together we you know pretty (46:36) awesome studio team we had a big 50,000 square foot warehouse in Boyle Heights that where we (46:41) could kind of pull everything together it wasn't tall enough to like build some everything out (46:46) um but we got a lot of the stuff built out and then it was just you know a lot the the big dream (46:52) for it is to is to build you know new rides and attractions and have a park you know we were going (46:58) down that road I think initially we were looking at the the future first instead of maybe you know (47:05) and again there was no roadmap for like how you do this I would say if I could do it again I think (47:10) we would all probably like how do we you know I would have loved to like exposed people to the (47:15) studio where we were building it maybe let people pay tickets to kind of come see that because we had (47:20) a lot of celebrities and people in the art world who would come we'd give them private tours and (47:24) things like that but I think we could have probably done some more incremental work (47:28) and like built the community and done that a little bit I think it was one of these things we got this (47:32) big thing dropped on us we had big ambitions and we kind of went after the the big ambitions (47:37) initially and I think we spent some time doing that and it can be it can be pretty costly to do (47:41) that and all this then we sort of felt like oh now we really do need to pivot back to the historical (47:47) works and just show them and like get started because it was hard to get started with something (47:50) of that scale yeah and you know you have celebrities involved and people you know whose whose (47:56) reputations are important you have to kind of respect that and make smart moves along the way (48:01) but it's not like you know society six was the total opposite like we would just release changes (48:06) like on friday and we just test stuff and see how it went it's hard to do that when you have like 42 (48:11) shipping containers warehouses giant rides like where do you begin and so we ended up showing it (48:17) in los angeles uh at the end of 2000 um 2023 uh and we ran that through may and then kind of shut (48:26) it down for a few months and then it went to new york at the end of uh 24 and then through into 25 (48:33) and and now it's kind of um you know looking at it at this point now it's kind of a lot of the (48:39) things have been worked out it's there it can be kind of spun up pretty easily for a new location (48:45) and i've kind of you know moved into some more of an advisory role and because a lot of the (48:50) you know a lot of the operations and management of it all have kind of you know gotten a lot (48:55) more simplified and and are largely contained within dream crew and so you know i think it's (49:01) kind of and then the bigger like long-term deals um are also kind of being worked on by that team too

Marcus Arredondo

(49:08) so um that's super exciting i i think it's actually i feel like it's at a really cool time (49:13) where we're you know we're being afforded these experiences like the van gogh exhibit um there's (49:20) been some other you know seeing Cirque du Soleil travel like there's other sort of experiential (49:26) art pieces of art that um are becoming i don't wanna say commonplace now but just um you know (49:31) more feasible and more digestible to people in a way that like i don't know when you and i were (49:36) growing up if we were to hear about something like this happening it'd be like what what are (49:39) you talking about this would be sort of difficult to comprehend yeah for sure and i you know i think

Justin Wills

(49:44) there's at the end of the day too i think people there has been a big change in the and a lot of (49:50) those experiential things and you know i think people do crave more interactivity yep and i think (49:57) so that was one of the things on our minds which was like we we know this stuff is beautiful and (50:00) the story is really cool but we really want people to be able to ride the rides and interact with (50:05) stuff and it was a little challenging i mean that like i said that the ferris wheel was like (50:09) a hundred year old wooden ferris wheel we just like couldn't put people on it and we really (50:13) wanted to um so that was certainly like a challenge that was just built into to this uh (50:18) project was was it just it's going to be it's going to take a few more years and some time (50:24) to get to the point where there's enough capital to sort of do that yeah but that's what people (50:27) want they want to get we want to give them the real experience as opposed to just looking at it (50:31) but um but yeah i was to me it was just like this indiana jones thing i was like oh there's like a (50:36) lost treasure nobody knows about yeah i can't like what where do i go how do i sign up like i (50:42) was just willing to do whatever it took for that and the good news is i got to work we had some (50:47) so many great when we were like really building the team up and at one point um we you know pretty (50:52) significant group of folks working on that and just it was one of these projects it's just everybody (50:57) who worked on it was so uh enamored and mesmerized by the the story that you just you ended up with (51:05) a great team kind of automatically like everyone was there because they loved it and and and i (51:09) thought that was that was pretty special i feel like this is documentary material well there is (51:15) there is a documentary um and and hopefully it's it's coming out soon oh that's awesome i didn't

Marcus Arredondo

(51:20) know that uh what's what are you what are you doing now i know you're i i don't know if our (51:25) this is a good time to talk about our house like how are you feeling your days today yeah i mean

Justin Wills

(51:29) i've been working on a um social beverage platform um with an art component to it and um you know (51:38) it's it's a little bit it's a little bit under under the radar at the moment um we should be (51:44) kind of bringing that out early next year but you know there's an artist going to be an artist (51:48) community and an artist platform and an opportunity for visual artists to get their artwork on to (51:54) can labels and packaging um and you know working with somebody with a lot of beverage experience (52:01) um so he's kind of put together a delicious iced tea set of flavored iced teas and i'm kind of (52:07) building out the the platform actually with a couple of folks that i had worked with at demand (52:13) media when we sold society six and people had been there so uh bill you know and it's actually (52:17) pretty cool to build a platform now with all the tools that are available we made society six from (52:23) scratch but like we're you know we're working in shopify and making our own private shopify app and (52:29) plugging in all the tools and i'm like you know this is this crazy like everything's here i was (52:34) making fraud detection systems and customer support systems for ourselves and and doing all that stuff (52:41) you know on our own um so it's it's pretty fun to kind of get back into it and it is (52:46) i'm enjoying like you know i went from like building that to then we're building a big team (52:52) and being a coo and a founder in that sense of something physical and now it's like back to being (52:57) able to be actually designing things and like moving boxes around on a screen again is fun but (53:02) also like in back of my head i keep reminding myself like yes i'm at the computer making (53:08) something but i also need to you know what i like is there's going to be some in-person things (53:12) there's going to be some kind of community outside of the computer and that i need to like (53:17) remember that there's i need to engage with people uh in the real world still you know what is your

Marcus Arredondo

(53:23) as an entrepreneur of your your ilk like what's what's your day like what what does an ideal

Justin Wills

(53:27) day look like from wake up to um my day but you know i'm not a not an early riser i can tell you (53:35) that so i get you know i get up and spend a little time with my with my son i always like to be the (53:41) one to drop him off at school so i get to have a little time with him you know i have a we have (53:46) a new australian shepherd that we got so i take her to the dog park and i do some emails and some (53:52) phone calls and kind of planning things out for myself while she plays with other dogs and then (53:58) you know i do like that um kind of core mid-morning time for like any i need to do any (54:04) like design sprints or like work on a certain document or really kind of bang something out (54:10) i like to have a nice couple hours in front of the computer there and then i need to like to me after (54:15) that it's all about like moving around and for me more in the afternoon getting some exercise and (54:21) then i kind of come back to like reflecting on what needs to get done maybe thinking about ideas (54:27) kind of brainstorming and having a little bit more of an open time toward the end of the day (54:31) and then it just you know it's going to vary too i'll look at like you know if there's other ideas (54:37) that i might have or things that i'm pursuing i might kind of chew on those in the evening because (54:41) i'm more of a night owl than a morning person so i like have a little bit of a after people have (54:47) gone to sleep probably like another hour of just you know a little sort of creative thought and (54:52) planning that i do there so that feels like if that was every day like i'd be that that that

Marcus Arredondo

(54:58) works for me sounds like a good day i i know we're coming up on time but i'd be remiss before closing (55:03) this out if i didn't at least ask as you look back on the disparate experiences you've had (55:08) from creative perspectives and from operational perspectives i know you mentioned you know there's (55:14) there's been some major stresses happening at once at different points within your life (55:19) but you've also sort of they may not be related but i think in some ways they are the the shifting (55:24) priorities as it relates to you know sort of where in your life it's not necessarily uh time-wise but (55:32) maybe experientially how do you um you know talking to your son for example how would you (55:38) advise or give him perspective about how those priorities shift how to uh pragmatically (55:46) implement some sort of principles or criteria upon which to guide how you navigate those occurrences

Justin Wills

(55:55) that's an interesting question i think i mean i think one thing certainly was a good learning (56:01) experience was like don't change too much at once you know if you can if there are changes (56:07) coming or things in your life um try to like settle in and like don't you know create extra (56:15) change for yourself because i think we you know we have a tolerance for how much change we can have (56:20) even if it's good it still kind of accumulates into into being stressful um so so there's that (56:27) and then i think um look i think the truth is is that your your priorities are going to shift and (56:34) there are you you do want balance right like the day i just rifled through has a lot of hopefully (56:39) a lot of balance in it and you're sort of hoping that like each day has balance i think the reality (56:44) is is that that things kind of shift uh in your life you know and and things get out of balance (56:51) a little bit more over periods of time right like there may be like a period where you just need to (56:56) be really focused on a project and you're going to sacrifice some things for that project for a (57:01) period of time um and so you may not be able to achieve that that balance but you want to be (57:07) cognizant of like bringing that back um and i do think people are a little bit better now and i (57:13) think they talk to like kids and people about about life work balance and like mental health (57:19) and stuff like that so i think there is more emphasis on trying to sort of achieve balance (57:23) in the moment um day by day and week by week but the reality is is you you also if you want to (57:30) achieve anything right you're up against people who are willing to work harder and they're willing (57:34) to work longer and they're hungry and if you want to go after that stuff you're gonna have to be (57:39) willing to make some sacrifices and you're just gonna you may have to come do some cleanup when (57:44) it's when it's all over and like get to know yourself again and and do that stuff but it's uh (57:50) it's difficult you know it's a it's it's definitely been a journey of like trying to (57:56) figure out what that looks like um and how to the other thing i think you kind of learn too (58:01) as you get older and i don't know if this is for everybody but you know i used to think that my like (58:07) primary ability was like availability that i was like and i know that for that you used to like to (58:12) talk about football but um but i think you know i i think that like there's for me and a lot of (58:19) folks that i know and people in my family there's a sense that like you you know you need to kind of (58:23) you're sort of always on state that you have to be in to be effective um and i don't and i know (58:30) that that that feels like kind of something you have to do when you're young and maybe it is tied (58:33) to like gaining some wisdom and being a little bit more having enough experience that you can be more (58:38) efficient with your time but i do think you have to really try to understand what it is that you (58:43) you do well um and what you can bring to something besides just being like you know the person that (58:49) will always pick up the phone always write the email always get in there and do whatever has (58:53) to be done there's some other things about understanding what's unique about you so that (58:57) you can you can um you can cultivate that um and that you can that that that thing that you do well (59:04) can have enough kind of energy to it that it that it's helpful and that you can contribute so you (59:08) don't you don't burn yourself out um yeah burnout burnout is a real i've and i've said this to some (59:13) you know young founders i've talked to or people that i've worked with like burnout's real and you (59:19) do have to be you have to be careful about it and so to the extent that you are willing to burn (59:24) yourself out you just need to know that like you might have to do just as much time afterwards like (59:31) fixing yourself as you did burning yourself out like if you if you run yourself too hard for three (59:36) or four years it might take you three or four years to like recover so just you have to think about

Marcus Arredondo

(59:41) that i really appreciate that response because like there's a there's this harping on you know (59:46) work-life balance um you can hope to achieve it on a day-to-day basis but the reality as you said is (59:50) like i think you sort of there's seasons right where you know for a certain number of months (59:56) or weeks however long it is where you just have to grind it out and um but you have to understand (1:00:03) that there's the recovery period and i that's something i think i wish i would have done (1:00:07) earlier was just sort of like to your point about always being on is like no there's going to be (1:00:12) sort of a time when i'm just i'm just off like i i just need to yeah recover oh and you can't be

Justin Wills

(1:00:18) all things to all people too right now give me a period of your life where you can't and that's how (1:00:22) i felt after we sold society six i felt like i couldn't be i couldn't be myself or i couldn't (1:00:28) be of value to anyone like i felt like i couldn't be of value at work the way i wanted to at home (1:00:33) i just felt stretched too thin and burnt out to the extent that like i just everyone was getting (1:00:38) like a diminished version of me yeah man um and i was like i can't i just don't i don't have it (1:00:43) for everybody right now and so trying to and you know you're a parent now too and it's like when (1:00:47) you're you know you have your your folks your spouse your kids your work whatever it may be (1:00:52) you're trying to show up and be your best for everybody all the time and i think clearly the (1:00:57) lesson we're all learning is that you got to take care of yourself enough that you can do that and (1:01:01) periods where you can't you know you need to kind of minimize and control your energy and

Marcus Arredondo

(1:01:07) save it for what you need to put into to your point i think like uh you know they say that your (1:01:13) most valuable asset is time and i think it's not time it's energy it's uh sort of preserving your (1:01:19) own willpower too but um this is awesome man i i'm glad i was able to finally have this conversation (1:01:24) i think i could talk to you for much much longer than this um i somewhat regret that i wasn't able (1:01:29) to have this conversation sooner because there's a lot of wisdom in what you're saying and i really (1:01:34) appreciate what you're what you're doing and what you're sharing i think there's going to be a lot (1:01:37) of value for a lot of people i hope so glad to hear any closing thoughts or uh things you think

Justin Wills

(1:01:43) we might have missed yeah i mean i guess the the thing that i would say to myself uh my younger (1:01:49) self and i guess i would say to anybody is it is just repeating some of what we said which is (1:01:53) you know i think when it comes to like the things you want to do in this world or uh and the projects (1:01:58) you want to take on or the businesses you want to build like i think it's important to to sort of (1:02:03) approach it like an artist and to sort of have that sensitivity and learn to listen to listen to (1:02:09) what's inside you like how that feels like because at the end of the day you're gonna you're gonna (1:02:14) make a business you're gonna make a thing and like your life is going to be you know a good (1:02:18) part of your day is going to be working on that and working on that with the people that you do (1:02:22) it with and so i think really kind of listening to how that feels is important because that i think (1:02:27) adds to your ability to have energy and to have that endurance if the thing that you're doing (1:02:34) excites you and the people you're doing it with excite you you get that energy back you've i think (1:02:39) you have a better chance of of success and i think you have a better chance of you know being able to

Marcus Arredondo

(1:02:44) stick with it uh for the long term right thank you brother this is awesome and i wishing you well on (1:02:49) your new project and uh hopefully we can have you back on awesome thanks marcus thanks for listening (1:02:57) for a detailed list of episodes and show notes visit scalesofsuccesspodcast.com (1:03:01) if you found this conversation engaging consider signing up for our newsletter where we go even (1:03:05) deeper on a weekly basis sharing exclusive insights and actionable strategies that can (1:03:09) help you in your own journey we'd also appreciate if you subscribed rated or shared today's episode (1:03:14) it helps us to attract more illuminating guests adding to the list of enlightening (1:03:18) conversations we've had with new york times bestsellers producers founders ceos congressmen (1:03:23) and other independent thinkers who are challenging the status quo you can also follow (1:03:28) us for updates extra content and more insights from our guests we hope to have you back again (1:03:32) next week for another episode of scales of success scales of success is an edgewest capital production