Human Advantage in the AI Era: A Conversation with Jodi Baker Calamai

In this episode of Forthlane Features, Vanessa Hui sits down with
Jodi Baker Calamai, National Managing Partner of Human Capital
Consulting at Deloitte and contributor to Deloitte’s 2026 Global
Human Capital Trends Report.

The conversation explores how AI is reshaping organizations,
leadership, and competitive advantage, and why the firms best
positioned to win may not be those investing the most aggressively in
technology, but those investing most effectively in people.

Drawing on her experience advising leadership teams through large-
scale organizational transformation, Jodi discusses why this AI cycle
differs from previous technological shifts, the growing importance of
adaptability and human judgment, and the risks organizations face
when they prioritize technology implementation while neglecting
culture and leadership.

WHAT TO LISTEN FOR

1:07 Does the AI transition feel fundamentally different from past technology cycles?

4:02 What signals distinguish genuinely AI-ready organizations from those chasing headline?

8:18 Why technology-focused organizations are 1.6 times more likely to miss returns on AI investment?

11:26 How CEOs, board members, and investors can identify “AI cultural debt” before it quietly destroys performance?

24:38 What founders, entrepreneurs, and board members should prioritize in an AI-enabled world?

GUEST: JODI BAKER CALAMAI, NATIONAL MANAGING PARTNER, HUMAN CAPITAL | DELOITTE

Website | Email | LinkedIn

CONNECT WITH VANESSA HUI, SENIOR CLIENT ADVISOR, FORTHLANE PARTNERS

Website | LinkedIn 

Transcript

Vanessa Hui (00:04):

Welcome to another episode of Forthlane Features, a podcast where we dive into the world of global wealth and asset management. I'm Vanessa Hui, senior client advisor at Forthlane Partners and today I'm joined by Jodi Baker Calamai, national managing partner of Human Capital Consulting at Deloitte. Jodi is a contributor to Deloitte's 2026 Global Human Capital Trends Report, which explores how AI is reshaping organizations, leadership, workforce strategy, and decision making. Jodi, thank you so much for joining us today.

Jodi Baker Calamai (00:41):

Thanks for having me, Vanessa. Great to see you.

Vanessa Hui (00:43):

Great to see you. So Jody, I'd love to start with the big picture. I mean, you've spent years advising leadership teams through periods of massive organizational changes and transformation. So from your perspective, does this AI transition feel different from the previous technology cycles that you've helped organizations work through?

Jodi Baker Calamai (01:07):

Such an interesting question. And you know what? It's one that I feel like every leader is asking themselves too. Does this feel different? Should it feel different? And I would say like every good consulting answer, it's yes and no. So no in the sense of the reality is still the same. There's some sort of disruptive technology that's changing the way we work. There's a choice point in terms of how organizations adapt, what they adapt and what that looks like for their business. So that's the no, right? Same pattern. Whether it was enterprise technology or cloud making a way onto the world of work or best of read tools or experience platforms, there's always something that changed the way we work. I'd say the yes part, like what's actually different is one, the speed. I would argue many organizations in past hype cycles of technology have had the liberty of saying, "We don't want to be an early adopter.

(02:07):

Let's watch and see how others do this. Then let's make a call and let's plan for the change ahead." That speed is accelerated tenfold and that liberty of watching and seeing is the difference between success and extinction. So that's a yes. And I'd say the other reality is AI has disrupted how we live, the choices we make as humans. And so it's not just an organizational tool, it's a work and life productivity performance enhancing tool. And so the disparity between humans in life making travel plans or doing something different in how they grocery shop or asking for advice on workout schedules or how to care for those around them, like that people are making moves in their personal life. I think it's something like 98% of humans use AI, full stop. I have 75-year-old parents, they use AI in their every day.

(03:07):

And so that disparity between what we're experiencing and the uplift we're seeing in our personal lives is putting more pressure than on organizations to act. So we use the S-curve, the transformation curve of change to show why speed is different and why the propensity to act is different. And one stat, you mentioned our human capital trans report. One stat I couldn't unsee after reading our first cut was that seven in 10 organizations are now saying fast and nimble is their number one business priority. And you have to argue a lot of that is due to the cycle of change around them, but also the proliferation of the need to act around AI and what that looks like in their day. So yes and no, but good things are happening and I'd say the best are following suite and acting to see the ROI.

Vanessa Hui (04:02):

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. And I love the way that you broke that down as yes and no.You mentioned that stat on the fast and nimble. And I actually think it's interesting when I was reading through Deloitte's report, one of the central ideas is that even though people are saying they want to be fast and nimble, when you really look into things, competitive advantage seems to be coming less about technology and more about what Deloitte calls the human advantage. So that multiplier effect created when human creativity, judgment and adaptability are amplified by AI. So many of our podcast listeners are investors, entrepreneurs and business owners. What would you say are signals, whether it be in leadership, culture, or just management behavior to tell someone that a firm that they're looking at, investing in or working with has actually built that human advantage versus one that's just chasing the AI headline because they don't want to be left behind.

Jodi Baker Calamai (05:12):

Oh my God, I love that question. And imagine a world where investors were looking at human capability, human advantage, human edge versus just-

Vanessa Hui (05:22):

Your dream world, eh?

Jodi Baker Calamai (05:24):

The balance sheet or technology. Exactly. My dream world. We'll live there one day. But what are signals to look for? One is just how they talk about their investments and their plan. I love stats, so I'm going to throw some at you. For every dollar spent on AI or technology today, 93% of it is actually spent on the tech. Only 7% is spent on the human. That's a pretty weak stat and a strong signal that we're not investing in the humans around the technology. We believe those that change the way work is done, change the culture of their organization, change the way in which leaders lead are going to win. So asking a simple question as an investor, what emphasis are you placing on the humans and leaders to win in an AI enabled world? Walk me through the plans and strategies and the investment approaches you're putting in place.

(06:17):

That would be a pretty easy one to test that. If the human skills like curiosity or leadership feel like an afterthought, that's pretty telling. The second one would be around just the strength of leadership. We have always talked about how leaders lead, but actually now leaders are role modeling. How do their leaders use AI? How do their leaders talk about the journey ahead? Do they talk about it with excitement and passion? Do they talk about it looking a bit deflated? That would be an interesting one. Bold leadership will win nine times out of 10. Fun fact. So assessing the handle on the leaders leading the organization as AI enables a lot of work, the humans that remain are going to be key. And so having your own view on what that looks like. We've seen a proliferation of leadership investments infiltrating the world of work, whether it's based on investment decisions or acquisition choices and whatnot, there's a reason why and because people bet on people and that would be the sum of it.

(07:24):

And then the third one would be there's so much data in the ecosystem talking about organizations. What are the words that, whether it's things like Reddit or other industry journals that speak about the propensity of an organization's success, like what are the words they use to describe them? Is it trustworthy? Is it nimble? Is it human-centered? Those would be good cues, less signals, but more just good cues of, do we have it right? Is this the organization that's going to win in the future? I think there's a lot out there. And the good thing is that I see that dialogue changing. It's not just my bold vision of what the future could look like, but I see it changing in terms of what boards are asking of leadership, what investors are prioritizing and what the best organizations are doing to win and compete in this world.

Vanessa Hui (08:18):

I read a stat that I think really speaks to why investors should care beyond just the conversations changing. There's actually a direct impact on returns on investments. So in the report, there was a stat that said organizations taking a tech focused approach to AI are 1.6 times more likely to not realize returns on that investment compared to those taking a more human-centric approach. So help us understand that a bit better. Why does that gap exist in human-centric organizations, what are they actually doing differently?

Jodi Baker Calamai (08:56):

Yeah, it's a bit counterintuitive because you think if we're investing in the best technology, the best returns are going to come. But I think it's interesting, there's been a trend over the last couple years of investment in technology equals headcount reductions or cost takeout. And why they're not realizing returns is returns don't come from cost takeout. That's a short-term strategy to realize a short-term ROI. Value growth innovation that comes from actually fueling humans to focus on what is more valuable. And there was an interesting report actually that came out last week from Gartner that talked about interviewing 350 of the leading organizations around the world and something like 80% of them had seen headcount reductions in the last couple years and something like the equivalent number plan to scale up again in 2027 that speaks to this agenda. We're not realizing the returns because we're just basically compensating for the investments we're making versus business growth.

(10:01):

Being able to win is about fueling for innovation, which comes from an investment in the human. It comes from investing in pilots to see where they go and what new growth lines or trajectory for doing things differently come from. It comes from humans being curious. They have to work in the organization to be curious, curious about what's possible and challenge the way we do things. The future of business growth, the future of business performance, the future of our economy depends on people powered by machines doing things differently, not machines running our business and trying to foster. So like with every hype cycle and investment in technology, organizations are trying to figure it out. What's the recipe for success? Where do we invest? Where do we take out cost? How do we drive cost takeout and performance all in one? And so I think we're seeing a little bit about the early signs of not doing both in tangent and I believe the future's going to look really different in terms of those who invest build skills, enable leadership, team organizations in a different way are going to see performance like we've never seen before in the world of work.

Vanessa Hui (11:26):

That's so interesting. I think that we really do think about investing in AI as a technology spend and the idea of things have to be in tandem to optimize those returns on that investment is something that I know that I've learned over the last little while from just reading and getting smarter on this topic. One of the concepts that stands out in my mind as you speak is the idea of AI cultural debt. So I know that this is a term that's often used as explaining the accumulating of mistrust or disengagement and really like a deterioration of culture when organizations move too quickly on the technology but neglect the human side. So because this is something that can be quietly building in the background, how would a CEO or a board member or an investor know if an organization is accumulating this kind of debt before it becomes really visible in performance or stats?

Jodi Baker Calamai (12:34):

Yeah, it's such an important topic. So the stat we always talk about in terms of culture debt, just to lay that out and then answer your question on what could you be asking for or looking at the numbers like eight out of 10 of employees today feel their colleagues are using AI to appear more productive than they are. So interesting, you kind of scratch your head and you ask, well, is it because people think AI is performative? We tell our people to use AI, they use it and therefore they're just adhering with what we're saying is important. Or is it something else which is people think the use of AI is cheating,

(13:16):

Is not doing it the old way, using a tool to get to an outcome faster is cheating. Either way, you look at those two responses to that stat I mentioned, talk about this concept of a cultured debt. We have people having mistrust in their organizations. Unfortunately, this concept of mistrust is not new. The Edelman Trust Index is a great barometer for where trust lies. It's been on a massive decline the last number of years. If you take the initial question you just asked me around why are organizations not getting the ROI, it's because they're investing only in technology. This would be the second part of it is that getting the ROI requires humans feeling aligned to the strategy. They believe they're set up for success. They believe they will have a future and they want to invest in it, that the skills they're acquiring make them stronger and better off.

(14:11):

So the easiest way to look at that is engagement surveys and pulse results. What are people saying in terms of would they recommend the organization they're working at to a friend? That's a great integrator of belief in the organization, trust, the strength of culture. The other one is what people leaving are saying. Are they saying it was an exceptional grounding for my career and I wish everyone all the best? Or is the exit interview data talking about the lack of support and trust and the degradation of the organization at large? That would be a second one. And the third one would just be about teams, like observing teams in their element. Are people rallying together across different lines of business to drive and propel their organization forward? Or are people working in isolation individually doing their job and doing more? I believe the organizations that win will be collaborating differently, but trust is the bedrock of collaboration side organizations.

(15:21):

And so observing that in terms of how you're getting to a result would be the third. But I think there's so much data out there. It's about asking the right question, but knowing what you're looking for as an indicator as an investor of organizational success.

Vanessa Hui (15:37):

So let's dive into really what a company that's doing it well should look like. I know that in the Deloitte report, there's a concept of dynamic orchestration. So the idea that a company really needs to continuously reconfigure its people, skills, technology, and AI around outcomes in real time. And it's not just about looking at change as a temporary event, but really training an organization to have an everyday muscle of adaptability. So looking at an organization that is doing things well in your perspective, what is really separating genuine adaptability from just another change or response to change?

Jodi Baker Calamai (16:26):

So I was with a large Canadian group of board of directors across a variety of Canadian organizations last week and they were asking me basically the same question. And I said to them, the single best question I would be asking management or leaders is, are you leading the same way today as you did 12 months ago? If the answer is yes, you're not moving fast enough or you're not leading the right way because the world has changed. Think back to where you were 12 months ago, what you were doing, what tools you used, how you thought about your day. If you have leaders who are at the pinnacle of that, driving that for their organization and not thinking differently, we've got a huge problem. So what's a good example of dynamic orchestration? I love when everyone has a plan, a six-week workback plan or a 12-week workback plan, three month workback plan.

(17:25):

I love when those plans are set and then revisited because courageous organizations every day that passes have more data on how they need to operate to win and those who look into that data and then change the way they're working, the way their plans are laid out in terms of what's important, brilliant, bold. That would be something that I would say was a great example of moving with pace and agility and orchestrating differently.

(17:56):

Another one, and this is such a funny one, but it's really true is just job titles. We all grew up in a world where you had someone in finance, someone in sales, someone in operations. I love watching organizations kind of meld those titles together because boxes are no longer discreet. That's another good example of just being dynamic and moving differently, starting to realize that actually as AI takes away some of our work and we're doing more work in many ways jobs are consolidating and the ability for people to have influence is larger, another great example.

(18:32):

And then the third one is just a natural understanding of the skills within an organization. The soft skills, which I believe are actually the hard skills, like empathy, like innovation and then some of the harder skills around technology jobs or cyber jobs. What are those skills and how are they changing? Some of the best CHOs I work with are able to show the from to how everyone is moving over the next number of months because we're investing in our people to get stronger and better in order to compete in a world where the human edge is so valuable.

Vanessa Hui (19:09):

Is there a specific example you can share that just helps illustrate that a bit better?

Jodi Baker Calamai (19:14):

Yeah, I'll give you the leadership example. There's a very large Canadian technology organization where the CIO and the CHO have essentially become like a two in a box and they're running the organization at speed and in the past they would talk about how they ran two different organizations and they would show up to management teams working as part of the executive team running the organization. Now essentially everything they do is about managing human work and technology work. And so they've started to run their organization almost as a two in the box. That's leading differently than they did 12 months ago versus just coming together when they had to. There's actually organizations where those roles have been combined. There's three or four organizations we're tracking where the CHRO and CIO has actually become one role. So talking about how some work has gone away, new work has been created and the job family groups have combined closer.

(20:12):

That would be an example of your second one. And the skills I see tons of leadership assessments happening to assess the mindset of leaders, the behavior and fact pattern of leaders. It's no longer enough when organizations are hiring that they're looking at past trajectory and past results. They're actually looking at how those people lead, how they show up in a crisis, how they work with other people in the organization and there's actual assessments that start to get under the hood of what that looks like in real time. So just a couple of different examples of why leading an organization actually looks differently when you're enabled by AI, when you're ready to grow, when you want to win.

Vanessa Hui (21:00):

So you spoke about, you referenced the S-curve earlier of a business and I'm wondering how all this conversation about the importance of reinventing and that dynamic orchestration, do you find that that's fundamentally changed and shortened the lifespan of a competitive advantage?

Jodi Baker Calamai (21:24):

100%. I'm Canadian. I'm a proud, proud, proud Canadian. And so I say this having spent many years overseas in London and across Europe, but one beautiful and I'd say real factor of Canadian organizations is we don't love to be the innovators. We don't love to be out in front. We love to be a bit safer. And so that S-curve in our world has worked a bit to our advantage. You have a pulse of what's happening, you track investments others are making and you start to maybe do some pilots around innovation, but don't commit. And then finally you decide you're going to commit, you ride the wave in terms of the investment lifecycle, you see the huge ROI and you have some time to ground yourself before the decline happens and you start what's net new. The S-curve has totally changed the uptick of the time it takes before a signal of a net new opportunity is identified and the time it takes for leadership to align on that innovation, those pilots really outliving their life and we just need to commit and see the uptick in innovation to lead into that growth curve.

(22:44):

And then slightly as we're started, you see the decline and we're on to the next. That new, that's the compressed view of the S-curve. That is what is happening in day-to-day life. And I always joke like, how many times have you gone out to eat recently with friends or family and people just close their menu and they're like, "I've got decision fatigue. I'll have what you're having or we'll share." That is the S-curve in practice, which is we're taking so many rapid decisions in our day, day in, day out, committed decisions

(23:17):

And we just got to move and we got to act and we got to keep going and that's caused two things. One is total decision fatigue within organizations because the expectation is so high. But two, a chance where we do commit, we're seeing the benefit faster. I have a colleague who always talks about doors and he talks about in organizations you have a one-way door and a two-way door. If a decision is a one-way door like you're walking through it never to be revisited, you pause, you reflect like, "Is this the right decision?" If it's a two-way door, run through it and then if you have more information that tells you made the wrong decision-

Vanessa Hui (23:55):

Run back. ...

Jodi Baker Calamai (23:56):

Run back. But that is just the, we've got to ride the S-curve and win faster and commit faster. And interestingly, to go back to where Vanessa our conversation started, more technology is not going to win the S-curve. More technology doesn't make better decisions and help you see alignment in an organization on an innovation cycle. It's humans that do that. It's humans that dialogue, that debate, that feel safe to make and trusted to make a decision and then deal with the consequences as more data presents itself.

Vanessa Hui (24:38):

So I want to narrow in a bit to some actionable takeaways, some free advice from Jody. So if you were advising a founder or a CEO, an entrepreneur, what are, let's say, two things you would tell them that they should prioritize over the next call it three to five years to position themselves well, or maybe is three to five years too long?

Jodi Baker Calamai (25:03):

I was going to say three to five months maybe, but yeah. It's such a beautiful question in terms of reminding humans that we are still in the driver's seat. So think about the type of leader you want to be as a founder, as an investor, as an entrepreneur, how do you want to spend your time? Who do you want to spend it with? What do you want people to say about you in terms of how you work and how you lead? That would be number one is humans buy from and invest in humans. So think about who you are and how you show up. That would be number one. Number two is how are you role modeling from the start as an investor looking to invest in organizations or as a leader at the forefront or an entrepreneur starting up? How do you use AI?

(25:54):

How do you role model? What does your day look like? What agents are on your team when you look at the blend of humans and agents that help you get your job done? Do what's right. Don't do what you've always done and hope that others do what's right in 2026 and beyond. Three is be okay with taking calculated risks. Taking decisions is better than not taking decisions, not taking decisions equals extinction. So think about that one and two, the one-way door versus two-way door analogy. If I can come back from it, run right through and know that I'm making the best decision in the time available when the data available today. If it's a one-way door, pause, look around before you're committing and knowing that the ramifications are a bit more extreme, those would be my three. I could give you all the tech advice in the world, but as I said, and you said, Vanessa, it's the humans that are going to win in modern day.

(26:55):

And so I thought what better way than to give advice around humans.

Vanessa Hui (27:00):

Thank you. And what about for our listeners who are board members? What's one question they should be asking that perhaps isn't being asked right now?

Jodi Baker Calamai (27:09):

Oh, board members I think play such a pivotal role always and such a pivotal role now in accelerating action. The best board members for me are the ones actually doing the work themself, playing around with AI, looking at trends of the best organizations around the world, doing their own research about the future of in the sector or industry to which they're sitting on a board around. So my advice would be around use the tools around you to get smarter because that's what makes better governance in the questions you then ask of management. It's almost the role modeling on a different stage versus expecting others to do and you just asking the questions, get in the mix of it, do your own learning, experiment. The tools are out there, the thought leadership is out there. Humans are out there that want to chat. Really take advantage of all that to be better in your craft and upping your game in the same way you expect management, leadership, and the workforce to do the same in the organizations to which the boards you sit upon.

Vanessa Hui (28:21):

And I have two more questions for you. Number one, can you share an example of how you personally with your team have integrated AI in the optimal way where you're using it to really magnify the human power and talent you have around you?

Jodi Baker Calamai (28:40):

Yeah, I'll share my couple strategies that have been in place for the past couple years. One is every morning when I open my Outlook very, very early in the morning, I open my suite of AI tools. So it's not a afterthought later in my day, it's happening together. And I actually use my agent to tell me what to think about for the day, what meetings are coming, what are my takeaways that I said I would do the day before that I never got to. There's lots. What are the questions and prep that I need to do? So that's how I start my day every day. Two is if someone comes to me with a slide deck or a Word document or some other format of content, I always ask them the question, "Did AI create your first draft?" If the answer is no, I actually stop the meeting.

(29:33):

There's many good examples of when this has happened because you're not being productive with your time, you're not using the best insight and knowledge available and you're not role modeling or acting at the way culturally we think is most important. So that would be my second personally. Third is I spend a lot of time in meetings debating topics coming to So a judgment on what the right choice is of where we go forward. If I ever feel like we're not getting there, like the topic is too meaty, I will invite AI into our meetings. So we always value that voice as well and we feel like that represents those not on the line or in the meeting room and it just brings a different perspective to make sure we're not too tunnel vision in the decision making that we have. So those are three of mine.

(30:27):

If you ask my team, I mean they have names for their AI agents that work with them in everything that they do, but that's part of needing to be in professional services. You have to role model the change you want to see in others.

Vanessa Hui (30:40):

So interesting. And then my last question, it's one that I actually ask every guest on Forthlane Features. What is one lesson you've learned throughout your career that continues to guide you today?

Jodi Baker Calamai (30:55):

Profound for early one. Here's what I'll give you. The lesson that I learned early that guides me is who I am in work is who I am in life. There can't be two different versions of me. And to build enduring cultures, to lead with your heart and your head, to build relationships and all spheres of life to drive the right outcome for your organizations or other organizations that you support, you got to be you. So I think that one took me a little bit longer than I wish I had. I have a 12-year-old and I think it was really when she was born, I started to feel like I could be me, but I think that's a lesson that I will bring with me until the day that I retire or do whatever I do after I retire.

Vanessa Hui (31:42):

I love that.

Jodi Baker Calamai (31:43):

Being you wins every time and that's just who you are in work and in life.

Vanessa Hui (31:47):

That I feel like is such a privilege of getting older is getting that confidence and the comfort of being you. Well, Jodi, this has been such a incredibly eye-opening and comforting conversation actually. Just your point about humans remaining in the driver's seat is something I think that has been drowned out by all of this fear around AI taking over our jobs, our thinking. So thank you for that very comforting and empowering reminder. Really appreciate your time and thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

Jodi Baker Calamai (32:24):

Thanks so much. What a great discussion, Vanessa.

Vanessa Hui (32:26):

Thank you.