Let's Talk Health Justice with Tilé Imo

Hello and welcome to an exciting episode of Let's Talk Health Justice. This episode features Tilé Imo, the Associate Director of Health Justice Partnerships at Caxton Legal Centre. 

Listen in to hear Tilé chat with Health Justice Australia’s Partnerships Director, Lottie Turner about how he and Caxton have turned informal relationships with likeminded individuals and services into established health justice partnerships. Tilé and Lottie also discuss about how having hard conversations in partnership can lead to better outcomes, and much more! 

For more from Health Justice Australia visit our website, at healthjustice.org.au. 

Health Justice Australia acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of the lands and waters where we work, and pays respect to Elders past and present.    

This episode references elder abuse. For support, contact 1800 ELDERHelp (1800 353 374) - a free call line that will automatically redirect you to the elder abuse phone service for your state or territory.  

Credits 

Produced by Lizzie Marton, Content Coordinator at Health Justice Australia 

Transcript

Cath: Health Justice Australia acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we work and pays our respect to Elders past and present. We recognise the ongoing harm of colonisation and acknowledge the resilience, knowledge, wisdom and teachings of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples. 

This episode references elder abuse. For support, contact 1800 ELDERHelp (1800 353 374) - a free national call that will automatically redirect you to the elder abuse phone service for your state or territory. You’ll also find this information at the top of the show notes. 

[theme music] 

Welcome to Let's talk health justice, where we explore the intersections of health and justice. We’ll be discussing how these systems can work better together, and what that means for those who rely on health, social and legal services for help. 

For many people, the problems in their lives are not easily broken down into the narrow areas of expertise that our service systems are designed around.  

Think about women and children experiencing family violence, or people navigating mental health challenges. The problems they may face are multi-dimensional, and can require support from a range of people, including doctors, lawyers, social workers, midwives and financial counsellors. 

By working together, health, legal and social services can support people living with complex problems much better than they ever could as a single service. 

Stay tuned as we talk to people working at the intersection to transform the way people access help, including frontline practitioners in health and legal services, researchers who are trying to understand what works and why, and policy makers who shape our service systems. 

This podcast is produced by Health Justice Australia. Health Justice Australia supports the expansion and effectiveness of health justice partnership though research, capability building and strategic advocacy. Health justice partnership integrates legal help into services that support people’s health and wellbeing. 

To find out more about health justice partnership and the work of Health Justice Australia, visit our website at healthjustice.org.au. 

Hello. I’m Cathy Bucolo, Partnerships Manager at Health Justice Australia. In this episode, Health Justice Australia’s Partnerships Director Lottie Turner caught up with Tilé Imo, Associate Director of Health Justice Partnerships at Caxton Legal Centre. 

We know that working in health justice partnership requires practitioners to navigate different ways of working – and as a bilingual person, Tilé brings a valuable perspective to the concept of translation across difference and finding common ground in partnership.  

Tilé also chats with us about how he and Caxton have turned informal relationships with likeminded individuals and services into established health justice partnerships, and how having hard conversations in partnership can lead to better outcomes. 

Lottie: Kia ora. To start, us off tell us a little bit about your background, what led you to working in Health Justice Partnership? 
 
Tilé: Thanks Lottie and kia ora to you too. I am a lawyer of 10 years - so I've been practicing in Brisbane for about seven years and I'd say half of my legal practice has actually been in health justice partnerships. It was new for me coming into it. It was also new for Caxton Legal Centre where I work, coming into it. So, Lottie, I just want to give you your flowers because you've been part of that journey with me since the very beginning, almost five years ago now, and just yeah learning the ropes about what health justice partnership means, how to partner, how to check in on the partnership, how to sustain and maintain partnerships - all of that which we'll get into today, I'm sure. I guess that's me in a nutshell from professional level.  
 
Lottie: Yeah, what drew you to the work in the first place? 
 

Tilé: Yeah, good question. So I had been practicing at Caxton, I think three years at that point, and I'd been working in our family domestic violence and elder law practice. And so when the position came up, I was sort of at that point in my personal career, I was getting itchy feet, like what am I going to do next? And so what drew me to it was that it was a different model, it was a different way of thinking. I think if this role hadn't come up I probably would have been looking at returning back into private practice or doing something else. And so I think for me, looking at working in the health sector and trying to meet clients where they are rather than, you know... that whole idea of the system working for the people, rather than the other way around. That really was an interesting thing for me, especially - I worked in Duty Lawyer court so I thought ‘oh maybe it will be like duty lawyer but in a hospital setting.’ And it is kind of like that. But it's also different because you're not working alongside other lawyers, you're working alongside health professionals. And it is really meeting people where they are in that moment in their health journey, but also because obviously they're seeing us about their legal matters, and at that pointy end of their legal matters particularly, because I work in the elder abuse space and the clients that I work with are 60 years of age and over. 

Lottie: So what a sliding doors moment, goodness.  

Tilé: Yeah that’s right [laughs] 

Lottie: [laughs] So Caxton has three broad health justice partnerships. Although you might break them down into smaller parts. Can you talk us through your work with Metro South Health, Metro North Health and then World Wellness Group? 
 
Tilé: Yeah, absolutely. So our partnership with Metro South Health is the first HJP that we started, it's an elder abuse specialist service. We're across all of the 4 major hospitals in Metro South Health now. We have a lawyer that goes in at least once a week. They've been very kind enough to give a space and – you know, you have a health background, so you know, space is always an issue in hospitals. So we have a space there. The lawyer goes in, we sit in the social work department and most of our referrals, I'd say at least 90% of our referrals come from social workers. We have the exact same partnership with Metro North, and we also have a community social worker who the hospital social worker can do a warm hand over to once patients are discharged from the hospital system. We visit clients in their homes, in aged care facilities. We see them in cafes or libraries if we need to, if safety is an issue.  
 
It's a pretty fluid model and again it's that idea of meeting the clients where they are, meeting people where they are and it's...there's that consistency of the lawyer throughout but also of a social worker integrated into the service as well. And then World Wellness Group is a primary health service. They are probably the largest service provider to multicultural communities in Queensland. And maybe Australia but I'll say Queensland just to be safe. And they provide GP services, allied health services to multicultural communities. They have a very similar sort of social justice and health equity model, and they work with people who are asylum seekers, refugees, and lots of different multicultural communities. And so we initially partnered them as part of our elder abuse program which is now called the Seniors Legal and Support Service. Originally it was called the Older Person's Advocacy and Legal Service. But we got some different funding to actually run a generalist HJP, so that's for all of the core areas of law that Caxon works in. So – antidiscrimination, human rights, civil law, consumer credit, family and DV. Um, and it's essentially one lawyer who lives out there at World Wellness Group four days a week. And in that model instead of a social worker, it's a multicultural advocate or navigator, and that's to provide that cultural support and the cultural linkages to multicultural peer support workers, to World Wellness Group’s various health programs that they have, and mental health programs. So that’s our third health justice partnership out there. So it's a big area that we capture, and it's a team now of about I'd say six lawyers and six social workers.  
 
Lottie: Wow, that's huge - so huge reach and also a really healthy pool of practitioners working in that way. One of my questions was to see, is it the same lawyer who attends the same hospital on a regular basis? Because I'm really curious about this concept of continuity and how that enables partnering. Can you say any more about how you navigate your resourcing and allocation of those people? 
 
Tilé: Definitely, so we do have - it will be the same lawyer at the same hospital, and one of my lawyers in my team, Alex Ladd, came up with this concept of “face branding”.  

Lottie: [Laughs]  

Tilé: [Laughs] That's what he calls it. We go in, people know your face. They know your name. You build that relationship with the social work team. And so whenever a referral comes in or a call comes into our general line it just gets allocated directly to the lawyer on that site. But all of our lawyers have their own phones as well, which is a blessing in itself. And so they can, if they have that close relationship, they will have that direct line to that lawyer and they can call that lawyer directly as well. 

Lottie: Yeah wow. And in terms of your integrated model at Caxton, where you have your own social workers and they're working really closely with the health justice partnership as well - say more about their role in the partnership and how they work with their social work peers in the health and hospital settings that you're operating in. 

Tilé: So it’s very integrated in that we share one file. We do have other programs at Caxton with social workers, but they're not as integrated as our seniors legal and support service. So we share one file. Nearly every single time we reach out to the client, it will be the lawyer and social worker calling together with the client, and usually the case plan is a mixture of legal and social supports that they would be providing. And sometimes it is just social work and sometimes it is just legal. And if it is legal, the social worker's role is to really provide that kind of emotional support or, you know, trying to figure out what are the gaps that might be missing, that they might need that extra bridging into the community or bridging into different services to allow them to engage with us. I think I've noticed it more in the HJP, where you really do need those, you know, housing, accommodation, health, those things do really need to be settled for people to actually engage in the legal process meaningfully. And so sometimes the social worker’s role is doing all of those things before we can even really engage with the legal issue, but sometimes it's simultaneous. Sometimes it's separate, sometimes we do it in steps, so we will, you know, negotiate with the client. What's the thing that's most important to them to resolve straight away? And sometimes we have our own views about what that might be. But again, it's a client-centred model as well. So we really focus on what the client wants to achieve. 
 
Lottie: I want to stay with hospitals for a moment because you have extensive experience working in and with hospitals as a community lawyer, and I think we can appreciate that that's a very different working environment to working out of a community legal centre. What have you learnt about working in hospital sittings in particular? And I guess what advice would you give to others looking to build health justice partnerships in those settings? 
 
Tilé: Yeah, well I think some of them might be obvious, but for me, they're important. So, to like find your champions. The people who support your cause, if it’s elder abuse or whatever jurisdiction or whatever the legal issue is. And I think it's really important to find those people because they are, you know, like they are your sponsors - they're the ones who'll be in there saying your name, saying the name of your service and sharing the information and promoting the service from within the system. I also think being comfortable with multidisciplinary tensions. And just understanding that... 

Lottie: What a beautiful way to put it. 

Tilé: Yeah, that disagreements are normal, and I think... And even just in terms of the actual delivery of the service. Those conversations are hard conversations but they're necessary and important and robust. And it actually leads to better outcomes and actually leads to more trust between the partners if you're doing it right, and being gentle and clear about your boundaries. But the other thing I think that's really important is that people in hospitals are so busy! And the thing is we're all busy. When I have new people come into the team I just say to them, you know, “know your spiel or know your elevator pitch. What are three things that you can share really quickly with them? You know, introduce yourself, say those three things and that might be – oh, “We provide a free legal and social service to inpatients and outpatients who are over 60, we have a referral form, you can look at the website or you can call us for a secondary consult. It's de-identified. It's free.” You can just you know, ask a question and if you have time for an anecdote just share something, for example, I helped a lady in her seventies last week do a title search and figure out who owns her house and helped her to engage in her discharge planning meeting and then she was able to go home to a house where her son was saying, “it's not your house. You need to go into age care.””So and then done, you're done. You've done that in five minutes.” So I think that's a really important thing because you're constantly meeting people. You're constantly having to say that spiel and I think it can take practice over time. And knowing your audience as well is really important, like what do they need to know to take back to their boss or to their department so they can, you know, engage with you. But I think that's, you know, knowing your spiel or your elevator pitch is important and just being open and curious and reaching out to people. I always find that people are always open to just hearing about how they can engage with you and it's sort of going in with that mindset of “how can I help you?” instead of “here's what I can do for you.” Which is, there's a nuance there I think but yeah. Those would be my tips off the top of my head.  

Lottie: No, they're great, and I mean I think the finding your champions one we hear a lot. I think absolutely that's really important. How did you actually go about finding yours? 

Tilé:  I would say it started before even me. So Cybele, our CEO, she met Dr Anne-Louise McCawley who was the statewide Educator for Social Work and Welfare and they must have met at different conferences and just built that rapport, built that relationship and I think Anne-Louise must have seen that there was tenders open for health justice partnerships and they'd always talked about this idea you know of wanting to work in the health justice partnership space. Anne-Louise's background just happened to be in, her PhD was in financial elder abuse, and so there was an immediate connection for them and they just sort of built it from there, but I've done similar on my level. Our partnership with World Wellness Group started because I'd seen someone from Word Wellness Group - Sameera Suleman - she is a social worker there. She was presenting to us on a panel about cultural competency in health and primary health and so I just reached out to her on LinkedIn and said “Hey I really appreciated that session, you were great, would love to just chat”. And we met probably a couple of times for coffee on Zoom because it was, that was during COVID. And then all of a sudden we're like “Hey why don't we actually partner and do something.” And it's like waiting for those moments when a funding opportunity becomes available. There's some way to sort of bring those ideas and those conversations and relationships together, that's how it worked for me at least, but everyone has their own way of building relationships and finding those people. 
 
Lottie: Absolutely, and I have to be clear with everyone who's listening to this podcast I didn't tell Tilé to say that but it is absolutely in line with what we advocate for, right? You know, I really strongly feel that a strong partnership is a well-networked one, and it's this informal engagement with other people who work in similar spaces that you can start to do today. You can do that work without being funded to do that work, because actually that's the investment that's going to provide your potential funder with a really strong evidence base of an existing relationship that can be built upon as opposed to having to start that work when you get funded to build a partnership.  
 
Tilé: Definitely. 
 
Lottie: Then let's move to the transition from the hospital-based work to working with World Wellness Group. What did you learn when you made that transition? Because they're really, they're different settings, as I think we've already established, but how did your practice change when working in that different context? 

Tilé:  Yeah, World Wellness Group and I suppose that primary health sector is a lot more agile, so it was much easier to engage because it was less of a hierarchy. I remember when we, whenever we go out to a new hospital or start somewhere, you sort of have to go all the way to the top, to the executive, and then go back all the way to frontline services and start engaging and build back up. And so I was like sort of the up and down, where it was a bit more of a flat approach. But I think in terms of the practice, I would say it's not an elder abuse service but a generalist service. So we had to think about how that might look because the person that we hire and, we hired a great lawyer, Ada, we weren't sure what their legal background was going to be, you know, would they be able to cover all the areas? Like it's such a general legal service, you know, at least in elder abuse space, we could be really clear about our boundaries and it's a bit - it was a bit harder to do it for the general service because nearly everything would get referred to us if we allowed it to so we had to be really clear about what those areas of law were going to be, what our criteria was going to be. I mean obviously we want to help as many people as we can. And even like, because we're working in a multicultural sector nearly every single referral has an element of an immigration law problem as well. And that's not an area of the law that Caxton practices in, but we've had to build relationships and we have existing relationships but really, um, go back to the drawing board and build those or relationships with services like the Refugee and Immigration Legal Service so that we were making sure that our clients were getting that support in terms of the immigration law matters. We also wanted to, and we haven't started this yet, we still have our thinking caps on, but part of our funding application for the service was to have a CALD, or culturally and lingually diverse law student clinic as part of the service because we know that we often get law students from CALD backgrounds who are wanting to engage with their communities, and how do we build that? So that's still something that we're sort of thinking through and building at the moment. And I guess the other thing that changed for us in terms of practice was not having the social worker integrated but having the multicultural advocate and navigator and really identifying what that role would look like, what they would be doing with clients. That role actually isn't an employee of Caxton, it’s actually, we fund World Wellness Group to hire the multicultural advocate and navigator because we thought, well, they have the expertise in that multicultural space, and they have multicultural peer support workers and so yeah, we decided that instead of having a social work model, we'd have integrated multicultural navigator and advocate and really identified what their role would look like and what they would do. And the great thing about World Wellness Group is they already had an internal HJP which kind of already had that role and had that defined. And so really, we just borrowed from that and rebuilt from that navigator advocate role, and actually what's worked out is that the person in the role actually has a social work background so that kind of worked out for us. We've got that social worker, but they're wearing the multicultural advocate hat. And they do everything from helping clients to complete forms to, just things that relieves the lawyer from doing those sort of legal tasks but allowing that space for the lawyer to actually do casework where we could do that. And the multicultural navigator was doing almost like a Paralegal / Social Worker role. But that was one of the big practice changes in that World Wellness Group Practice. 

 
Lottie:  Yeah, what did you look for when you were recruiting to the lawyer position in that partnership? 

Tilé: Yeah, we were looking for someone who had a generalist legal background and the lawyer we had came from the community law sector which was such a, like a big plus for us because they worked with community. We also, there are things like desirables where like they had experience in a health justice partnership and again, Lottie, we found someone who has a HJP background, um, she was a lawyer who worked at LawRight which is another Community Legal Centre in Queensland but worked in their HJP as well - we were so lucky. And then she also just happens to be a person who has multicultural background herself, and so she had all the...you know, in the interview she used all the right sort of language like she spoke about human rights, was trauma informed. And I think we thought, you know, this is someone that we can build the expertise in the space, and really develop them and mould them. And they were still in that first five years of their law career. We thought, you know, that this is a good time, like that's when I sort of started, I was only probably three or four years old as a lawyer when I moved into the HJP space. I mean taking from my own experience I thought that was a good time to pluck someone from, you know, the legal fraternity and sort of mould them into a HJP lawyer. But they already had some of that community sector and HJP background that we could work off. So yeah. 
 
Lottie: Yeah, yeah, great, I mean I ask because that's a big question that comes up for services wanting to work in health justice partnership. We acknowledge that this is a different way of lawyering and I'm always keen to decode what we mean by that and so any opportunity to talk about what are the characteristics and features we see in people doing this work? And that's the stuff we need to invest in and support well as they as they move into their work as health justice partnership practitioners.  

 Tilé: Yeah, absolutely. Like when I started, so Anne-Louise and Cybele, who were on the panel that hired me for my original role, they said that one of the other reasons that they had hired me was that I was personable and that you needed someone who was going to sort of, you know, be willing to transgress what a lawyer looks like, you know, a little bit. Because I don't think I talk like a lawyer, I don't think I look like a lawyer, like traditionally. And so I think there was that, they kind of thought, this is someone that people will look at them and think “Oh they're warm. They're inviting. And they know the law as well”. And so I think that's what I look for as well when we're recruiting. So you know all of those soft skills - or what we call soft skills - are really important in the HJP role.  

Lottie: Yeah, absolutely. Well, the work of health justice partnership really requires navigating multiple and complex language groups, shall we say. So, navigating legal assistance language, framing and perspectives, health language, framing and perspectives, and then of course the language, framing and perspectives of the people who health justice partnerships are here to help. I mean, I'm really curious, Tilé, as a bilingual person, how you view the concept of language and translation in health justice partnership and how do you navigate that work yourself? 
 
Tilé: It's, I mean I love this question because yeah, language really does matter from all of those different perspectives that you've talked about from a practice, you know, from a health perspective. And I recently had a yarn with two fabulous Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women, Aunty Elsja Dewis, and Aunty Sarah Addo and they were talking about how in their communities, in their Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, the concept of elder abuse - all those words don't really exist as a framing for them, and how it's not a phrase or an idea, but they would call it obligations and responsibilities and then breaches of those obligations and responsibilities by family members and I thought that was, you know, as a Samoan person, as a bilingual person, I really related to that because we don't have a word for that either. And even like concepts like family... in western community it's more nuclear family and many other cultures, you know, everyone's your aunty, uncle, your mum or your dad. And I have a friend who also did some research in Pacifica communities around diabetes treatments and one of the things that she found, her name is Dr Inez Manu-Sione, she found that in Pacific Islander communities, health is not just physical and mental health, it's actually like your spiritual health and your social and cultural wellbeing, so even when we talk about ‘health’ in the settings that we work in, we're not also encapsulating all of what we mean, and in other communities. You know, I think for me, if it's sort of through oral presentations, you know, and if I'm presenting to a particular cultural and or linguistic group, I often talk to the people who've invited me or to the leadership about the language. And a lot of Aboriginal communities talk about the difference between law and lore – L-A-W and L-O-R-E. And it's about not necessarily simplifying information but clarifying the information and trying to find that space between law and lore. Um, and I think that's really important. So for the oral presentations, it's a bit easier because you can connect with people a bit better. But if it's like written information, you know, general English language publications type thing, that's a bit harder I think and it's hard to get right. And I don't think we could ever be perfect if it's for the general public, you're always going to miss someone, but I think there are things that I've learned recently that help to make things that you're writing as inclusive as possible and you know it's things like you could have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander artwork, so they know that that information's for them, having photos of people rather than icons, like those are just things I've learned recently that I thought were interesting. But I'm always thinking about language as well. Like, I've been in situations where even with hospitals where I'm like, we're actually saying the same thing but we’re using completely different language to articulate it. You know, in the elder abuse space that we work in, we're often talking to people about, oh actually, I'm often engaged in conversations around ‘advanced care planning’. But I always distinguish that, and say that “I want to talk to you about future planning. Like what does your life look like in the future?” Rather than these limited medicalised concepts and having enduring powers of attorney. But how do you clarify what you can put in those documents that can protect you but also articulates your wishes and preferences, as a person who may at some point lose capacity and need someone else to step in? So, what are the important things to you? And, there's some work by Claire Thurston at ECLC, around conversations. And there’  a lot of great work out there around language. Um, and it's something I'm ,I mean I'm not a speech pathologist, I'm not a linguist, you know, but I really love thinking about language.   

 Lottie:  That would be something I observe about you Tilé, is that it is coming to your work every day with that thinking and awareness about what that means for how you interact with others. That was a beautiful response, thank you. Another thing I'm really curious about with you as one of these fabulous unicorns that has moved from being a frontline health justice partnership practitioner to a leader driving both strategy for and implementation of health justice partnership. How has your individual practice changed through those different roles? I'm kind of curious about any observations you have around what you've learned about yourself and what leadership, particularly in relation to partnership, means to you? 
 
Tilé: Well fortunately for me I still do frontline work. I don't think I can quite let it go, you know. I'd say 20% of my work is still frontline work, but it's challenging trying to balance everything. But it's a great question because I think in my initial role, when I took up the roles, the title was Senior Lawyer and basically at that point my practice was to trial and establish a health justice partnership. I had no idea what I was doing at the time, I was grateful to have you and everyone, and all the different approaches to learn from and that was a big learning experience. I don't even think I realised at the time my own skill in building relationships and in communicating like I don't think I realised until after, like, ‘oh I've done - like this is great! This is going well!’ And I can actually say that out loud confidently that relationship building is a key skill of mine. But at that time I was... I think I'd say 80% of my work was casework and providing advices, delivering community legal education, and trying to expand. And then a couple of years later my role changed and it was about sustaining the relationships rather than starting some of the relationships - and that was a different role altogether, different way of thinking. At that point I started leading a small team. There was only three of us so me and another lawyer and a social worker. My sort of casework did go down, I was probably doing 60% casework and I guess building my communication skills in terms of... I was doing a lot more stakeholder engagement at that point. Then also, I think probably at that time, I sort of started building the small network of health justice professionals in Queensland and really trying to say “Hey, we have this amazing model and way of working. We really should come together and collaborate and learn from each other.”  But my current role has – it's a fancy name, Associate Director of Health Justice Partnerships at Caxton. I'm only six months old in this current role and I'm assisting with like drafting, actually involved in the strategy, drafting program logics, writing service agreements, contributing to the strategic goals of our HJPs and because I'm not on the front lines I've really had to, you know, work with my team and really listen to what they're seeing out there because I'm doing a lot less of that. 

And I guess what I've learnt about myself is I still have a lot to learn and I have to be open to it, but I also have a lot to be grateful for. And I think before, like what I was saying before articulating my strengths, I don't think I was very good at that before. But also now being in a position to even articulate what - what are the opportunities for me? And what do I need to learn? And so I think leadership for me, regardless of if it's about partnership or not but definitely for partnership, is just being a master of curiosity and humility and intention. I think, being intentional, and being in a position to see systems because, it's really hard to be bogged down by them. But you can't really try and solve systemic issues if you can't see the system, so that's really hard to navigate as well, and I think, yeah, it is a team effort. It's not just me. It's like the everyone and the team working together. 

Lottie:  Let's close ourselves out, we're asking this question of everyone we speak to in our audio storytelling resource and that is that you know working in partnership isn't easy. We can acknowledge that there's no playbook and one way to go about it - so close us out on what drives you to work in partnership and what keeps you motivated and passionate. 
 
Tilé: What does drive me to work in partnership is the power of transformation. I think taking two or more bodies or you know how often legal and even social work as a discipline, and trying to create something different, something new and that's unique. And I love when, you know, it can work with someone from a completely different discipline or framework or sector and then finding that common language as we talked about, finding common ground and alignment, and then also learning from them and building my own transdisciplinary skills and practice.  And, you know, my favourite thing is hearing people in health talking about human rights or hearing lawyers talk about models of care and well-being. So I just think there's something about that that really that, that motivates me to work hard at what I do. And again, having that outward lens that what we do is for the communities that we work for.  

Lottie: Kia ora Tilé, it's always an absolute delight to connect with you.  
 
Tilé: Thanks very much Lottie. 

Cath: Thanks for listening to this episode of Let's talk health justice. And thank you to Tile for sharing your passion, perspective and wisdom with us. 

For more from Health Justice Australia visit our website, at healthjustice.org.au.