Let's Talk Health Justice with Jasmine Pavin

In this episode of Let's Talk Health Justice we're hearing from Jasmine Pavin, a lawyer at Women’s Legal Service Western Australia. While based in Perth, Jas catches the plane to Kalgoolie at least one week per month to work in a unique Health Justice Partnership with Goldfield’s Women's Health Care Centre.

As you'll hear from Jas, this partnership is flexible, place-based and unique - designed to meet the women in the Goldfields where they're at. 

For more from Health Justice Australia visit our website, at healthjustice.org.au.

Health Justice Australia acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of the lands and waters where we work, and pays respect to Elders past and present.    

Credits 

Produced by Lizzie Marton, Content Coordinator at Health Justice Australia 

Transcript

Cath: Health Justice Australia acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we work and pays our respect to Elders past and present. We recognise the ongoing harm of colonisation and acknowledge the resilience, knowledge, wisdom and teachings of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples. 

This episode references sexual and family violence. For 24/7 support, contact Australia’s national domestic, family and sexual violence counselling, information and support service, 1800 RESPECT, on 1800 737 732. If you are Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, you can also reach out to 13 YARN, on 13 92 76, and talk with an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander crisis supporter. LGBTIQ+ people looking for peer support and affirming referral pathways can contact QLIFE on 1800 184 527, 3pm to midnight 7 days a week. You’ll also find this information at the top of the show notes. 

[theme music] 

Welcome to Let's Talk Health Justice, where we explore the intersections of health and justice. We’ll be discussing how these systems can work better together, and what that means for those who rely on health, social and legal services for help. 

For many people, the problems in their lives are not easily broken down into the narrow areas of expertise that our service systems are designed around.  

Think about women and children experiencing family violence, or people navigating mental health challenges. The problems they may face are multi-dimensional, and can require support from a range of people, including doctors, lawyers, social workers, midwives and financial counsellors. 

By working together, health, legal and social services can support people living with complex problems much better than they ever could as a single service. 

Stay tuned as we talk to people working at the intersections to transform the way people access help, including frontline practitioners in health and legal services, researchers who are trying to understand what works and why, and policy makers who shape our service systems. 

This podcast is produced by Health Justice Australia. Health Justice Australia supports the expansion and effectiveness of health justice partnership though research, capability building and strategic advocacy.  

Health justice partnership integrates legal help into services that support people’s health and wellbeing. 

To find out more about health justice partnership and the work of Health Justice Australia, visit our website at healthjustice.org.au 

Hi, I’m Cathy Bucolo, Manager, Capability at Health Justice Australia. Welcome to Let's Talk Health Justice, a portrait of the people and practice at the intersection of health, justice and partnership.   

Today we're hearing from Jasmine Pavin, a lawyer at Women’s Legal Service Western Australia. Jas works in their unique HJP with Goldfield’s Women's Health Care Centre – on Jas’s first day of work, she met her CEO Jenny Gray at the airport at 5am, and flew out to Kalgoorlie!   

In this episode, Jas talks about the deep relationship between the two services, how they collaborate, and how she meets people where they’re at. This is a flexible, place-based, unique, partnership and we’re sure you’ll love listening to this as much as I loved talking with Jasmine Pavin.  

Cath: Hello, Jasmine. Welcome, it's wonderful to have you here today. To start, can you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to working in Health Justice Partnership? 

Jasmine: Absolutely, Cathy. It's lovely to speak with you again. Straight away I went into private practice. I worked at two private law firms practicing in family law, and it was really great experience. I learned a lot, but I realised pretty quickly it wasn't really where my heart and my passion lay. And from there, I started looking for more opportunities working with vulnerable people. I moved to work with the Aboriginal Legal Services of Western Australia. That was my first taste of the regions in WA, very eye-opening. There's nothing that can quite prepare you for life outside of a city. And so I moved to Geraldton in the Midwest and worked with the Aboriginal Legal Services. And it was a really unique region. I did outreach in Mullawar, to meet with clients as well there. 

So that was my first taste of remote WA as well. And the different needs and challenges there, particularly where there's only circuit courts, was quite eye-opening. And I think that experience has stayed with me through my current work as well. 

Cath: Yeah, amazing. Just going right back. So that move from working in a private firm and moving into community, do you remember what that was like and any thoughts around that? Because we've heard, you know, quite a few community legal lawyers, legal aid lawyers, have worked as a private lawyer. Yeah, and just really interested, people often talk about how different it is. 

Jasmine: It is so different. One of the reasons why I didn't quite gel with the private practice work was because I had such a social justice focus through high school, but then also through university as well. I had been volunteering with human rights agencies during that time and had chosen specific units that would focus and build my skillset working with vulnerable people with mental health issues and domestic violence. So in private practice, I wasn't really able to engage with the clients that I'd spent so long studying and trying to inform myself to be a better lawyer for. And that was, I guess, one of the main pushes as well, particularly reaching out to Aboriginal Legal Services. And I think one of the other really eye-opening things was, it's so different to read about things. You know, I thought that I knew what the barriers to accessing legal assistance were and would read case law on it or would read research articles on it, but I think it's something that you don't quite understand the gravity of until you're working face to face with it, because the barriers and the complex intersecting social and legal needs for people in the regions and remote areas was just so profound to really look at in the eyes. 

And I think from that point on I wasn't going back to private. 

Cath: Yeah, you'd found your calling, it sounds like, and your passion. 

Jasmine: Absolutely, absolutely. 

Cath: Yeah, brilliant. You've really painted a beautiful picture there. I can picture kind of what happened. 

Jasmine And I think that's, again, what followed me towards, what followed me into pursuing the role of the Health Justice Partnership with Women's Legal Service. 

What really captivated me when I saw the job advertisement and the description for the Health Justice Partnership role at Women's Legal was the length that the organisation, especially our CEO, Jenny Gray, had gone into investigating and really pinpointing what the needs were for vulnerable women, not only in Perth with the Northbridge side, but also in the regions. And I immediately understood and recognised the value of an integrated specialist legal service within a women's health centre.  

Cath: Well, let's maybe let's move to that, yeah, you've got this, it's a really unique role, working in health justice partnership. And so people are going to be so interested in hearing about that. The partnership is in Women's Legal Services WA with Goldfield Women's Health Centre. Can you tell us how that works? 

Jasmine: Yes, yeah. 

Cath: How does it work? 

Jasmine:  So we do have kind of a two-pronged health justice partnership at Women's Legal Service. We partner with Luma Women's Health Centre in Northbridge and have one lawyer that is based in that women's health centre for our Perth Metro clients and referrals. 

And my leg of the health justice partnership is the Goldfields. So I work full-time and I travel and I'm embedded within the Goldfields Women's Healthcare Centre and that's based in Kalgoorlie. 

Cath: So how does it work, because you're based in Perth or Women's Legal is based, the office is in Perth, how does it work? 

Jasmine: So it's a really, it is a really unique co-location system where I am based in Perth full time. I service the Goldfields full time. And The Goldfields is a huge region. It's 6 hours and 40 minutes out of Perth. I've done the drive as well as fly, and servicing from Perth has a lot of challenges, but the best part of it is travelling. So I travel to the Goldfields. I sit within the Women's Health Centre in Kalgoorlie for at least one week per month and that's not capped if I need to stay longer or if I need to go more frequently. And that's when I get to do my client facing work, catch up with clients, do some of the more comprehensive consultations, advice appointments and also my court hearings as well. So that's one thing that I really enjoy about the role is the flexibility and the support that I do have in Kalgoorlie but also within Women's Legal Service to travel and service and make those decisions about how I think I can best engage with clients remotely. 

Cath: It sounds like you're kind of choosing the best options that are going to meet people's needs. 

Jasmine: And that could be teaming up with local providers, especially servicing clients in the remote areas. And there's quite a few Aboriginal communities as well in the Goldfields. And the challenges that come with that is a lack of signal as well. 

So some clients will absolutely not have any signal and potentially access to technology, phones, laptops as well. So it's a matter of coordinating when a client may be getting a ride into the nearest town, which is usually actually a mining camp or town, where they're going to actually pick up some signal. So, you know, it might be a text from a client saying, I'm in town now getting groceries, but I'll be travelling back into town on Thursday next week around this time. Try to give me a call then. And so I'll kind of schedule in not just appointments that suit me, but it'll be appointments when I can actually call a client and the call will go through. 

Cath: Because they've got signal. They're in town. 

Jasmine: Yes. 

Cath:  Wow. Yeah. It sounds just so flexible, it's a flexible approach and that you as an individual need to be flexible. Do things change? 

Jasmine: Absolutely. 

Cath: You know, if you make that appointment or think, yep, I'm going to call George on Thursday, but then they don't come into town that day because of whatever happens. 

Jasmine: Things change constantly and it is a matter of always thinking on my feet, but always being as receptive as I can to suggestions from clients and service providers as well. So I'm not there and I'm not in a position to know what will work best, but what I do really try to focus on is asking a question, what can I do to make this easier for you? And how can I make this process easier for you to access? Because it is so important that my clients feel some sense of empowerment and self-determination in their own legal proceedings, especially when the court actually only really is in Kalgoorlie itself. So protection and care matters, for example, will only be heard in Kalgoorlie and that court does not travel on circuit. Only the criminal matters will go on circuit. So very often the only court hearings my clients will attend or be part of are criminal hearings, which is not a positive association. It's a negative experience for them. So things like dialing clients into court hearings as well and trying to relist or adjourn hearings to a time when I know a client will be in reception so that they can actually attend their court hearings by the phone even, I think is probably sometimes the most engagement or the only engagement some of my clients have had with their own legal proceedings.  

Cath: You've touched on just some of the deep complexity, and we've been talking about this just recently where you might say that people have experienced the law as a weapon rather than a tool and that's kind of, it seems to me that's what you're describing where they've had this experience with the criminal circuit court which hasn't gone well and may have even done harm for them. And then you're in the position where you're needing to say, well, now we've got to go to care and protection. It's in Kalgoorlie. They're going to have to travel. They already don't trust the system.  How, you know, they've just met you. How can they trust you? All those kinds of things. 

Jasmine : And  that's a massive thing as well that you've just mentioned is how can they trust you, especially when you are a voice on the phone? I'm not always there. And it's very hard to distinguish, especially for clients of mine in Aboriginal communities, who don't speak English as a first language. It's really hard to discern what I say or how I sound or who I am compared to the Department of Communities case managers who may be calling them or the adult corrections officers who may be calling them. We do sound very similar. So one of the things that I do always try to do is either coordinate with a service provider to do maybe a video call so they can actually see my face to associate it with the name or also trying to get to Kalgoorlie if I can. If client is travelling for any reason, you know, for a hospital visit or to meet with, you know, a key service provider, if I know a client is coming to town, I will always try to coordinate my trip to Kalgoorlie so that I can actually pay some face time with client because it's very different just over a phone call. 

Cath: I know people have talked to me too about, even just the simple fact that those services that you've just described and you being one of them, often those phone numbers are not identified numbers. And so that's coming through people's phone as a number they don't know. They don't know that it's Jasmine, their lawyer, and they should really pick that up because they want to talk to her. They think it could be any of those range of people. Even that's really hard. 

Jasmine: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, like I was saying, having such a supportive workplace and and such a supportive CEO and principal legal officer, as soon as I did start working with the Goldfields in the Health Justice Partnership, I did very quickly identify Teams and anonymous calls were not going to work for me. I needed a work phone so that I could text clients, text them and say, this is who it is. And so also making sure that clients had for them to actually text me back, which has been a real lifeboat when I need to coordinate times that they're going to be back in signal as well. 

Cath: Mm-hmm. The other thing that's coming to my mind is, the strategies that you've described today, they're not just relevant for working in the context that you've described, that rural, remote, even regional. They're relevant for metro HJPs too.  

Jasmine: Absolutely. 

Cath: Yeah, so maybe um this is, you've just started to touch on it, but can you give us, paint us a picture of Kalgoorlie? It's an incredible outback town, you know, that people have maybe visited, definitely heard of, and there must be some really unique opportunities and challenges. Can you talk to us how, as a partnership, you've been responding to those specific needs of women in the community? 

 Jasmine: Being a new lawyer in the region is always difficult, building relationships with clients, community, stakeholders, even the courts. And I have the real privilege of actually being able to slide in under the banner of Goldfields Women's Healthcare Centre. And they've been operating for such a long time as a pinnacle in the community and already have a lot of recognition and trust established, which really helps me. I am the only lawyer for women's legal services in the Goldfield, so I do travel alone. And the association, the relationships built by Goldfields Women's Healthcare Centre over the years they've been operating with the community has been really helpful. Women will present at Goldfields Women's Healthcare Centre. They will just walk in when they need help. The Goldfields Women's Healthcare Centre has a travelling locum GP that visits regularly, a women's physio, there's a carer support coordinator as well, and two counsellors at all times. They've always been full-time there. So despite that, women will still present with issues if they're needing help, regardless of whether they know that Goldfields Women's Healthcare care Centre can actually assist specifically with that issue. They've got a real no wrong door policy that I think women in the community recognise. So they will actually just walk in when they need assistance with anything that might be going on in their lives if they don't know where to go. And the staff at Goldfields Women's Health, the CEO Gloria Moyle and the front desk CSOs as well will always link clients in with who they need to be linked in with. And I think that's a real benefit and it's been so invaluable, especially because women would actually already often present with these legal issues that they really needed help with and didn't know where to go. And they're now in a position to say, well, we can book you an appointment with our lawyer, which I think is really incredible. 

Cath: Yeah – amazing. And how did that go with Jenny, um your CEO, approaching a health centre and saying, hey, I've got this idea of maybe we could embed a lawyer in your service if that's how it happened. And the same for you, same question. How did you lob in there, get off the plane, rock into the Goldfields Women's Health Centre and say, I'm here? They've never had the experience of having a lawyer embedded. How did all that work? 

Jasmine: I guess, first of all, absolutely hats off to Jenny Gray and Gloria Moyle as those two CEOs, because they just work together so brilliantly. I think sometimes I'm surprised they aren't actually close colleagues. They share a real passion. And I think that's what it comes down to is a real shared passion and drive. They do live and breathe for our clients and for providing a service and a high quality service and when two like-minded people get together I think there was a real, yep, we're doing this – and that momentum from both of them has seen us through to where we are at the moment. On my first day I didn't go into the office. I actually met Jenny Gray, our CEO at about 5.30am at Perth airport. And on my first day, I was flying with the CEO to Kalgoorlie and that really kind of set the tone for what the HJP would be. We've been completely hands on and really motivated and passionate about getting on the ground, working with clients. 

Cath: Yeah, and you've got that investment and backing from your leadership. And then I imagine that, you know, that trickles down and we can hear that in you. And I guess, speaking of you and your partnership, and can you tell us about your colleague? I know you've worked pretty closely with a psychologist there and have had some innovative ideas that you've been looking at. 

Jasmine: There's a counsellor and now registered clinical psychologist, Zoe, at the Women's Health Centre, and she's a specialist FDV counsellor and does work with some very high-risk clients. And that's been the real benefit of having a co-located lawyer there is we will refer to and from each other and we'll have mutual clients there. And there's been a couple of situations where I've received a referral from Zoe after a consultation with a client and I will then have a legal appointment with the client. But as lawyers with one-off legal advice appointments, usually we'll finish off that legal advice appointment, we'll do up a file note and then that matter is closed. There isn't an obligation to follow up unless it is noted within that appointment. And having services and people who are working with clients after that legal appointment at both Luma and Goldfields Women's Healthcare Centre doing that really intensive client work, there are now people who are really well positioned to identify increased risk, changes of circumstances, perhaps new information that has been revealed that previously wasn't known – having the ability to flag with me that there may be a real need for some further legal advice here. And in my conversations with clients following legal appointments as well, they've said “I was really daunted about you know the idea of coming to see a lawyer, but being able to come and see a lawyer off the back of Luma or Goldfields Women's Health, where I actually have, you know, someone working really closely with me who I trust really deeply...” That has been what has given a lot of clients the confidence and the ability to actually then engage with a lawyer about their legal issues. 

 Cath: Yeah, that's just such the beauty of partnership. You know, the things you're describing, person-centred, fantastic, effective partnering, that it goes both ways. You're able to refer to them. They're able to refer to you. I know you've said to me before that you couldn't do your job as a lawyer without the Women's Health Centre. What did you mean by that? 

Jasmine: From the ground up, really, the logistics of even having an office space in Kalgoorlie whenever I need one is phenomenal. And also having them there if a client doesn't have a phone who is able to actually just come into the centre, they will help set a client up with a phone that they can use in the office, a laptop screen to be able to have a video call. The only reason I am really able to engage with my clients face-to-face is because of the Goldfields Women's Healthcare Centre, but also the support that I have on the ground from them and the in-depth knowledge that they already hold of the region really helped bridge a lot of gaps for me. I didn't have any experience in the Goldfields. I didn't have any family or friends who had lived in the Goldfields. So being able to come to any of the staff at Goldfield Women's Health, even Gloria directly to say, I've got this issue. I've never seen this issue. I don't know how to navigate this issue. And Gloria will say, oh, you should talk to so and so and so. And she'll have an email and she'll bring me into conversations, bring me into meetings to make sure that I have all of the tools that I need to best service our clients. And that's really unique and valuable. 

Cath: Can you build on that a little bit more and talk about when you fly back to Perth, then the connection that you still feel with Goldfields? 

Jasmine: Servicing full time but not being there in person has a lot of challenges, but it's also been really inspiring and empowering to see services in the community really coming together and really establishing strong relationships and communication pathways. While I'm in Perth, I'm constantly in discussion, conversation, constant email chains with Goldfields Women's Health. The referrals do come as they arise. So I'm receiving referrals and updates from Goldfields Women's Health for new and also existing mutual clients throughout each week. And with that also, for clients that I've met with or engaged with who I know need further support, even if they haven't been linked in with Goldfields Women's Health, if they've come in from an external referrer, being able to actually refer to a service and supports on the ground who I know will jump straight in to assist clients is so invaluable. And I'm constantly thankful for their support and their willingness to really step in for clients when I can't provide the specialist health support that they need, but also when I can't provide that you know on the ground support, it's really something very special. 

Cath: Yeah, absolutely. I remember you saying that to me that another part of it is that, yeah, when you fly back to Perth, that you feel like the clients are in really safe hands. And yeah, that reciprocal, again, reciprocal relationship that you've got that, and I'm sure they're incredible incredibly grateful for the work that you're doing in terms of addressing the legal needs, which is out of their scope. 

Jasmine: It just works really well hand in hand for both of our organisations, but also especially, I guess, for our clients as well. Really often I'll engage with clients who will identify health needs, psychological, emotional needs that they have that aren't being met, but the focus is on this immediate issue that's causing a lot of anxiety, which is often a legal issue. And I can say, you know it's important that you take care of your health. But the difference now is that I can refer next door to a GP in a regional city. And that happens, that follow through does happen. And a lot of my clients who hadn't been engaging with Goldfields Women's Health or hadn't been engaging with health and medical providers have then increased their actual uptake of health services through the legal pathway and that's happened both ways. So clients who previously didn't feel confident or empowered enough to engage with a legal service through the backing of the health providers have then done that. But I've also seen it the other way, which is something that I don't think I'd initially expected to see is the legal actually helping lead to an increase in use of health services. 

 Cath:  Yeah. Amazing. You know what's going to be on everybody's mind. Jasmine, can you talk a little bit about how this HJP is funded? 

Jasmine : Yes, very uniquely we are actually funded by the Department of Health directly. So this project was pitched to Department of Health and they picked it up and they've been extremely supportive and helpful. And constant contact with us as well, particularly when it comes to the evaluation itself, you know, feeding back to the Department of Health the value of the legal service and this embedded legal project has really benefited from the ongoing support of staff within the Department of Health as well. It's a difficult thing to quantify. 

 Cath: It is. It is. That's a whole nother episode, I think, Jas. Yeah, but again, congratulations to you and to Jenny for that amazing work, getting the Department of Health to fund the two health justice partnerships. It's a really great work. I think we might come to an end now. So just to finish up, we're asking this question of everyone we speak to in Let's Talk Health Justice. We know working in partnership isn't easy. There's no playbook or one way to go about it. So Jasmine, what drives you to work in partnership and what keeps you motivated and passionate? 

Jasmine: I guess it really comes down to working with the whole person and really striving to address all of the unmet needs for vulnerable women. It's not just a situation where it's health, psychosocial, it's also the legal issues and these things do interrelate and impact upon each other constantly for these vulnerable women. And being able to work in the best way, in the most intensive way that I can to support a client in addressing such an array of their unmet needs. Being able to work with the whole woman, I think is really motivating, constantly inspiring. 

Cath: Thank you so much Jasmine, that’s been a really special conversation today.  

Jasmine: Thank you so much for having me on! I really appreciate this invitation. 

[theme music] 

Cath: Thanks for listening to this episode of Let's Talk Health Justice. And a big thanks to Jas - I loved talking with you and hearing about the amazing work you and your partners are doing on the ground in Kalgoorlie.   

For more about Health Justice Australia visit our website, at healthjustice.org.au.