#38 - Chaos, Curiosity, And Courage | Zina Kaye

The background laughter wasn’t noise; it was the cue. Recorded in Paddington, surrounded by young people finding their voice. Sitting down with technologist and board member Zina Kaye to dig into a simple truth: curiosity becomes courage when you ship small experiments and listen hard.

Zina takes us from the gritty origins of early compression tech to present-day AI, banking, and sustainability projects, showing how unexpected places often spark the most useful advances. Her rock and roll method, pairing an idea with ten surreal couplings, forces teams past rigid heuristics and into fresh, testable paths. We unpack how she moved from flimsy indoor balloons to a large autonomous plane by “farting around,” documenting every miss, and scaling only what worked. It’s a repeatable playbook for founders, product leaders, and policy makers who want fewer slides and more signal.

We challenge lazy assumptions inside organisations too. A board wanted a shiny CRM; customer research showed people only wanted to pay bills online and download schedules. That gap, between what leaders assume and what users actually need, is where service design earns its keep. Zina shares wins that blend digital with the offline nudge, like paper signs in dance classes that quietly drove ticket sales. We also call out shittification: tools that add friction while pretending to be smart. Real productivity means giving people choice, clarity, and dignity, not vanity metrics or chatbot mazes.

Heart-led innovation anchors the conversation. Through Anawim’s shared lunches, Zina helps tackle loneliness by creating settings that restore confidence and a sense of belonging, right down to details that many overlook. Her climate view is equally pragmatic: keep the joy, adjust the system. Let lawns grow, compost the easy way, and utilise public art to tell more compelling stories. If you’re stuck, start small in your own community, run a micro test, learn fast, and iterate. Subscribe, share with someone who needs a push to try, and leave a review telling us the first tiny experiment you’re going to run this week.

Holy Sydney Website:  https://hol.ly/ 

Transcript

Welcome, Setting And Sponsor Shoutouts

Leon Goltsman 0:00

Hello and welcome to Engaging Conversations. I'm your host, Leon Goltsman, and each week we sit down with people who are reshaping how we think, live and connect. If you're a regular listener, welcome back. It's great to have you here with us again. And if you're new, I'm so glad you found us. And if I don't say so myself, you're in good company here. Curious minds, good people, and real conversations that matter. Today's episode was recorded on location in Sydney's vibrant Paddington. Surrounded by the laughter and energy of young people discovering what it means to give back. We chose not to silence that background sound because it's more than noise. It's the heartbeat of our community, a living reminder that future voices deserve to be heard. If podcasts have a soul, this one's alive with purpose. My special guest is Zina Kaye, a technologist, innovator, a board member, and an unapologetic creative force known as the futurist who embraces the chaos. Zina's career spans the early days of the internet to today's most exciting advances in AI, sustainability and human-centered innovation. In this conversation, we explore how curiosity becomes courage, how failure fuels creativity, and why there's really no such thing as a bad idea. Zina's energy is infectious. She challenges the ordinary, celebrates the unpredictable, and reminds us that some of the best breakthroughs begin as experiments that didn't go as planned. This episode is proudly supported by Nepean Advanced Rehab and Allied Health Centre, empowering movement and restoring life through expert care delivered with compassion and results. And a special thank you to Niaz Cannoth for his continued support of good people doing great things and helping connect communities through innovation and heart. So wherever you're listening, walking, driving, or dreaming up your next big idea, settle in. This one's gonna make you think, laugh, and maybe even see failure a little differently. So without further ado, let's get into it.

Zina Kaye 2:17

Hi, I'm Zina Kaye. I am a technologist, an innovator, a board member, a mother. I live in Bondi, and something rather crazy about me is that I'm a dinosaur of the internet. I've been around before the first internet browser. I I am I am ancient technology.

Leon Goltsman 2:37

You're calling yourself that, but you've also been described as the futurist who embraces the chaos. Is that true?

Zina Kaye 2:45

I am the futurist that embraces the chaos. Um I've embraced technology changes that were invented in sport, in porn.

Leon Goltsman 2:55

In porn?

Zina Kaye 2:56

In porn.

Leon Goltsman 2:57

No, no, well, okay. Oh that caught me off guard. Okay, keep keep going, keep going.

Zina Kaye 3:03

Well, I don't know if you know this, but one of the first uses for technology was was porn, and one of the first uses for compression was video compression for interactive CDs, where you could interact with somebody in a in a kind of sexual way. So I suppose a forebearer of the current AI bots that you can interact with. AI.

Leon Goltsman 3:28

I read about that in the book once. So I'm about to ask you about chaos, and you've um you've just put some images into my mind. So I was gonna say, what does it actually look like? Don't answer that.

Zina Kaye 3:47

But um it was very old tech, so there are lots of menus and clicking and then just waiting for things to load, and that's where that innovation came was like to try and reduce the load time by innovating in compression, and then that got you know circulated to other technologies.

Early Tech, Compression And Unexpected Origins

Leon Goltsman 4:04

I mean, I've heard that things start off because of um because of military, because of war. But yeah, okay, okay, that's an interesting one. Uh I'm sure that would have caused a lot of chaos as well, somewhere.

Zina Kaye 4:20

Well, um, yes, I'm the kind of person that's not afraid to go in any direction with ideas. You know, I just I enjoy innovating and delivering value. So I remember when I was doing my MBA, we were doing a case study for speciality fashion griff, and it was around the time that Shades of Grey came out, and I could see that there was, you know, this beginning market in uh or an increased market in sex toys and things like that. So whilst all my compadres suggested things like joint ventures and shaving off a few cents in the production, I said you've got the biggest database of women in Australia. Why don't you discreetly sell them online sex toys? And they did. They went with that idea.

Leon Goltsman 5:10

Okay. Well, you've certainly embraced uncertainty into a profitable business.

Zina Kaye 5:19

Yes, I am a sought-after consultant. I'm still working with innovative technologies more and more, I think, at scale. So neo-banking, hydrogen storage. It is a it is profitable to have that history and knowledge and understand how things play out and what what innovation and the uncertainty of innovation looks like and you know having that having that experience that you can bring to a team.

Leon Goltsman 5:48

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of um a lot of people, like the most of us, uh, how would you recommend that they turn uncertainty into creativity rather than just fear? Because obviously fear holds people back.

Zina Kaye 6:02

Ooh, that's a really good question. Um I think there are three ways that people can turn uncertainty into certainty. And the first one is at an organizational level. So when you when you bring people through exercises where they can speak their mind and be open about their fears. This was actually a methodology that was pioneered in uh the British banking system, then people can move forward because they have been open about what scares them, about what's going to go on. It's a bit like when you when you when you put your fears on the table, when you shine light on them, there's they they become less less interesting, or you can have a plan to deal with them. The second thing about uncertainty is doing small experiments to see if things work. So with Holly, we've often collaborated with people who have an idea and they don't know whether it's going to work out. And so we do little websites or little demo products, take it to market, take it to people in the value chain and test it out. And that is a really great way to know if you've got something there and then develop it.

Leon Goltsman 7:22

So it's kind of like a catalyst for something that might eventually become remarkable.

Zina Kaye 7:27

Yes, so that's true, that's true. It can be a catalyst for something that's remarkable. I think when you're really uncertain and you you know that there is a a market there or you can see it, but you you want to you you're just kind of on the cusp and you've really got to kind of um bring it out of your back pocket as it were, then I always have the kind of rec rock and roll method of innovation, which is to try and pair it with something completely different. So it's kind of like like doing a cookbook, going, okay, well, here is this product or service, but I'm gonna do 10 completely surreal couplings with that idea and try and work out if that tells me anything. That's the that's the kind of rock and roll fun version.

Leon Goltsman 8:14

So it's it's kind of like many breakthroughs have started from something that failed once, potentially.

Turning Uncertainty Into Creativity

Zina Kaye 8:21

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I think I mean I I I really enjoy looking at failure and I really enjoy talking to people who failed and turned into turned into something else. So Australia produced this fantastic rocket that was tested in a Nordic country and it exploded immediately. And we've and we've actually just had um another rocket that's just exploded in the uh Queensland.

Leon Goltsman 8:45

I hope they're not using it to transport people anytime soon. Because if it's exploding, I don't want to be on that rocket.

Zina Kaye 8:51

Well, no, these are all these are all tests, they're these are all tests.

Leon Goltsman 8:54

Okay, okay.

Zina Kaye 8:55

And and the idea is that you know there's gonna be a certain amount of failure, so you you put that in the budget, but you make sure that you've got lots of documentation and you're really learning from failure, and that's where failure is actually just a very similar analogue to how many no's to yes.

Leon Goltsman 9:12

So, why do you believe there's no such thing as a bad idea? I mean, I'm gonna ask you. No, no, I'm gonna ask you again, you know, maybe I'll word it slightly differently. How how would you see yourself helping people uh see the potential hidden inside something that initially looks impossible?

Zina Kaye 9:30

Well, I've got an example for you, and I think it proves that adage that there's no such thing as a bad idea. So I could see that there was something there about using unmanned technology to look at the landscape, you know, look look from up to down. And I was tooling around with some guys at a conference called Ars Electronica in Austria. They were from Holland and we were just sort of sitting there sketching things out on a napkin one night, and I said, okay, I'll go and try and get this funded and see if we can build it. And at that point, we were using kind of off-the-rack technology for navigating Mylar balloons inside. But it was all very flimsy, and even though I could write the interface to control that, I didn't have a very broad use case because it was a tiny space that it could be used in. And I discovered that through doing little experiments, you know, buying the technology, trying it out in a big space, losing control of the balloon, smashing up the flimsy plastic technology, and then trying to work out how I would do this at a larger scale. So in the end, I built an unmanned autonomous vehicle, a giant aeroplane. Model aeroplane.

Leon Goltsman 10:45

You built it.

Zina Kaye 10:46

Yes, with with some with people. With people. Bob Young from Silver Tone Electronics and another guy called Barry Ming who helped build the model. Um, people from the arts community here, people from uh the telco community. And we built this aeroplane which had a boxer engine and a three-meter wingspan and could be flown around.

Leon Goltsman 11:10

Boxer engine is in from a Porsche.

Zina Kaye 11:12

Uh no, it's a it's a type of engine, it's like a symmetrical engine. Okay. Symmetrical modern airplane engine.

Leon Goltsman 11:17

Okay.

Zina Kaye 11:18

Yeah. We built this uh aeroplane, and we were at the time we were kind of in competition with a university project that was funded by British Aerospace, and we got our plane in the sky before they did. Wow. Just because we farted around and did little experiments and well it reminds me of the Wright brothers, you know.

Leon Goltsman 11:39

There was a uh a conference, all these professors and doctors and um engineers and whoever, or whoever these people are, they're meant to be experts and they scientists, and they've got together and they said, there is absolutely no way a person will be able to fly. It's just impossible. But as they were saying at that particular time, too, bicycle mechanics, Wilbur and Orvin, they were flying. Yep. So you just don't know what's going on. Yes, people have to believe, don't they?

Experiments, Failure And Learning Loops

Zina Kaye 12:08

Yes, they do, they do. And I think also it's not only that people have to believe, but also um people, um, if you've got a roadmap, even if it's not the correct roadmap, it's still a map that's gonna take you so somewhere. Yeah, and then as humans we do a bit of correction. We can't help it.

Leon Goltsman 12:26

So Zena, your work sits at the intersection of technology, innovation, and humanity. And I mean humanity is a is an important one because that's kind of how you and I met. And it's not just gadgets and data. So, how do you make technology human again so that it serves people rather than overwhelms them?

Zina Kaye 12:45

So I come from the world of human experience using computers.

Leon Goltsman 12:53

So we and that's what we started off on.

Zina Kaye 12:56

That's what we started off on.

Leon Goltsman 12:57

But we evolved somewhere else now.

Zina Kaye 12:59

So um, which um and that that has turned into service design, which means that on one hand uh we build things that are which have a tech interface and a huge back end or click into other things, and then at some point a human is using this and and they're also using offline things, and that's been very much the philosophy of Holly Sydney. So one of the earliest clients of ours was um Sydney Dance Company, and we built them a new website and and created their first archive of all the posters and images that they had and all the ephemera of all the of all the ballets that they put on, and then they had this problem where they wanted to sell more tickets, and we put in a bridge to a ticket selling website, and I also said, but you also need to put some paper signs up in your dance classes because that's you know, you have so much throughput of people in those dance classes. If you put ticket sales up there, then you're gonna sell tickets there, and they did, of course.

Leon Goltsman 14:06

You know, it's a good thing they listened to you.

Zina Kaye 14:08

Yeah, they made an awful amount of money that year. Huge. So when I think about solving problems uh or building systems for banks, uh museums, um, property companies, I'm always thinking about making it the best experience for the human, not using technology just because it's fashionable, and I hope this word's okay, and and not kind of pandering to end shittification, which is that idea of putting in technology that just makes people's lives worse, like AI chatbots, for example, for technical.

Leon Goltsman 14:45

Well, a lot of them I think they're taking the Mickey out of people because the technology it makes people feel like they're smart, but that's the danger because smart people don't feel that way. Smart people are always wanting to learn more. They admit that they don't know everything. That suddenly you've got this tool, but you've got this platform, and it tells you how smart you are. It's literally peeing in someone's pocket and telling them how unreal they are, and agrees with them. And so they walk away feeling like they're so smart and that's dangerous.

Zina Kaye 15:18

It is, it is.

Leon Goltsman 15:18

That's dangerous. But you have helped government startups and even sceptics navigate innovation, and you've got a good knack for that. Zina, what's the most common barrier you see holding leaders back from embracing new ideas?

Zina Kaye 15:32

I think the most common barrier I see for leaders to embrace new ideas is heuristics. So I I think that people have a vision of what something will be like, they'll have um a shared understanding around what will be approved, and then that's it, you know, and that and that doesn't allow them to think beyond that.

Leon Goltsman 15:57

So they're kind of putting themselves in a box.

Drones, Balloons And Building An Autonomous Plane

Zina Kaye 16:00

Yeah, basically. So what I try and do is um obviously run workshops, mentor people to think outside the box. At the moment, a lot of my focus is on how we're going to work with our humans and not retrench them, not replace them by technology because like we're gonna end up in a position where we don't have any consumers.

Leon Goltsman 16:25

Yeah, but but the thing is technology is a great thing because I just think that people are using it wrong. Technology is a great way to improve productivity. When I say that, yeah, I mean sometimes the tedious tasks are the important ones. Yeah. It's not what you come up with, it's how you got there.

Zina Kaye 16:44

Yes. I absolutely, I absolutely agree with you, but there's something really key here, which is if you if you've got that heuristic and you haven't done the research first, then you're often building something which doesn't answer the problem. So let me give you an example. I was working with a company that really wanted to put in a CRM, and basically we looked at the the value chain and the the service map of how people track, you know, touch point the various points of the business and what they want. And so they were dead set on collecting people's details, whereas all people wanted to do was pay their bills online. That's all they wanted to do, and then like download some data occasionally for you know calendars, timetables, things like that. But the the heuristic at the board level was oh, we we need a CRM, people want uh want customized emails basically that tell them that we care about them. But that's not what they care about.

Leon Goltsman 17:47

No, no, that's right. It just goes to show that people aren't listening, they think they know everything.

Zina Kaye 17:52

Yeah.

Leon Goltsman 17:53

Jamming their products and services down people's throats.

Zina Kaye 17:57

Yes.

Leon Goltsman 17:57

And that's what what we're seeing a lot of.

Zina Kaye 17:59

Yes, I mean that unfortunately that's business, is that you you productize or service ize a business and then you you it's easy to sell in a particular way, sort of seems to solve a problem, but doesn't. You know, in in this case, it's like selling snake oil.

Leon Goltsman 18:17

It seems to solve the problem at the time. When you see companies that actually have done well and succeeded, yeah, it's not because they're trying to sell. They're not the sellers. They're they're they understand people's problems.

Zina Kaye 18:34

Yes.

Leon Goltsman 18:35

I think that that's where it all should start. Understanding why we do what we do.

Zina Kaye 18:40

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, like you and I, people don't want to be machines serving the uh, for example, LinkedIn machine, the whole kind of human resources thing. I've got to change my resume again so that the machine will analyse it correctly this time. And I'm trying, I really want to get into that sorting hat. How is that making lives more productive?

Leon Goltsman 19:02

Well, it's not. As soon as people say I've got to do this, they've lost power. Yeah. You know, I I've been in situations where I spend a lot of time in regional parts of New South Wales. Yeah. And I travel where I where I want to go and how I want to go, most of the time, anyway. Uh and if I do end up coming to a meeting or particular appointment or doing something that other people may not want to do, people say to me, Oh, you've got it, you're here because you you have to.

Zina Kaye 19:31

Yes. Yeah.

Leon Goltsman 19:32

No, I don't. If I don't want to go there, I don't come.

Zina Kaye 19:34

Yeah.

Leon Goltsman 19:35

I don't turn up. And that's because I've got the ability to choose. That's empowering.

Zina Kaye 19:39

Yeah.

Leon Goltsman 19:40

And and people don't have to try and please all these people on social media that they don't even know. People are bragging, they're going, oh, I've got 30,000 followers. Well, guess what? These 30,000 people could be a bunch of dodos for all I know. How many of them actually spent money with you? Yes. How many of them actually made your life better?

Zina Kaye 19:58

Yep, totally.

Leon Goltsman 19:58

Instead, what they've done is they've taken up your precious time, yeah, try and please people you don't know. Yes. And I think what's important is I'd rather have one or two real connections and knowing that I'm everything to those people rather than a little bit of something to everybody.

Zina Kaye 20:16

Yes, yes, yes. I I I'm with you there.

Leon Goltsman 20:19

Well, and if anyone would know how to serve the very people that you represent, it would be you. Because you do serve on multiple boards, from University of New South Wales to Anawims. Do you decide that right?

Zina Kaye 20:35

The Anuwim, yeah.

Leon Goltsman 20:35

Anawim. Where innovation meets compassion. What does innovation from the heart mean to you?

Zina Kaye 20:40

That innovation with a heart is just the should be the catch-cry for our century, really, shouldn't it? Because we've got so many great ideas and and we've got really passionate people and and people want to do something, and so let's put the two together. So Anawim is a charity that takes people out to lunch. We're solving the problem of loneliness, and I suppose not feeling like you're at the table, being unseen, not feeling like you have a voice, that you're worthy. So we take groups out like Wayside Chapel, Northern Beaches Women's Shelter, the Burdekin Group, Southeastern Community Connect, and take them out to lunch, have a sit-down meal, and chat, let them relax, let them be served, have fine food, and and be a different version of themselves.

Leon Goltsman 21:43

So people can be a different version of themselves, but it's the version they want to be. It's maybe it's the real version of themselves that they've been suppressing because they didn't feel comfortable they could. When you think about that.

Zina Kaye 21:56

I I totally agree. I think that people do suppress that that um that version of themselves because they are down on themselves. You know, they're they're in a kind of mental uh construct. Um but also having said that, a lot of our guests have come from a place where they haven't felt safe or they just really are trying to, they're in a period of great change, maybe they've left a relationship with a child, they don't have that network in place. So our lunches also allow this kind of intergenerational meeting so people can, you know, maybe find that babysitter or talk to young people and not feel like they're just kind of locked in their own bubble. Because we kind of are being separated out in society, aren't we?

Leon Goltsman 22:49

I don't think so much separated out. I would probably describe it as more closing ourselves in.

Zina Kaye 22:56

Mmm, yes, yeah, yeah, no, I see what you mean there, yes.

Leon Goltsman 23:00

Yeah, because all this technology is meant to bring us closer to each other, really.

Zina Kaye 23:06

Yes, yeah.

Leon Goltsman 23:07

But what it does is does the complete opposite. We'd lose this, people lose that human interaction.

Zina Kaye 23:13

Yes.

Leon Goltsman 23:14

I've seen personal experiences where people are no longer picking up the phone and reaching out anymore. It's all emails. Yes. And the problem with that is, and I'm not gonna talk about the the conversations I have with my staff, but I could tell you that when we have an event or when we do something, I'll pick up the phone and call people. And if there's 150 of them, I'll call at least at least half of those people.

Zina Kaye 23:40

Yep, yeah.

Leon Goltsman 23:40

Some I'll send a message because I I don't want to talk to them. No, I'm kidding. I'll talk to them. I apologize to anyone who got who've gone to my events who didn't get a call from me. I promise you I love you.

Zina Kaye 23:57

You just ran out of time on the call list.

Leon Goltsman 24:00

Chatting away.

Zina Kaye 24:01

How's it going? Oh, you know, let me tell you about it.

Leon Goltsman 24:04

Well, they could have called me, you know. No, they usually do, no. We can joke about it, and that's how you know you're on good terms with people.

Zina Kaye 24:12

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Leon Goltsman 24:13

They're still in your phone book.

Heuristics, CRM Myths And Real Needs

Zina Kaye 24:15

Yes, yeah, yeah, no, totally. Um, well, I do think that one of the one of the barriers to entry though is how we present. So there are a lot of people that turn up to the lunches in their best clothes, which they might have sort of cobbled together in a way. You know, a lot I talk to people a bit about about um, particularly people who come early to lunch, you know, I ask them how they got here, what they've been doing that day. We've got a lot of people who don't have teeth, who don't have their front teeth, because with homelessness, there's a there's a lot of violence and they'll have lost their teeth and then not being able to get more teeth until they've kind of finished programs, or or they don't even they might have a voucher to get more teeth, but they don't feel comfortable enough to to get teeth.

Leon Goltsman 25:06

And that would affect and that would probably affect the way that they smile or don't smile.

Zina Kaye 25:11

Well, or even that they won don't want to come to lunch with other people because they don't want to be seen to be kind of spitting, yeah, you know. Um anyway, I try and I try and immediately make people feel incredibly comfortable about that because you know everybody should be there and have a good time. I have the best conversations with our guests, I really do.

Leon Goltsman 25:33

Well, I can see why. I don't think there's there's a topic you can't turn into an innovative discussion.

Zina Kaye 25:41

Well, and also, I mean, it we make a lot of assumptions about people and uh socioeconomically and then what they read and understand. Some of the most interesting conversations about ChatGPT I've had have been with our guests, you know, from Wayside or from Southeastern Community Connect, who um are observing people use this technology with um the eye of an anthropologist and Riley noticing how the good and the bad, I suppose.

Leon Goltsman 26:11

Well, one of the things you're a um a warrior on Zina Warrior Princess. Zina damn you've used that one before, haven't you?

Zina Kaye 26:20

I have. People used to go down the corridor and at AGSM.

Leon Goltsman 26:26

Do they still do that?

Zina Kaye 26:27

Yes, they're one or two that they're doing.

Leon Goltsman 26:29

Okay, I'm sure after people listen to this program, you'll probably get a few more.

Zina Kaye 26:33

Yeah.

Leon Goltsman 26:33

Especially if you come to a networking event. If they don't, I will. So you you've you've been an advocate for climate adaptation, especially for chillax people. Why do you believe modernization and cultural diversity might be the key to solving our biggest environmental challenges?

Zina Kaye 26:51

Oh that that's an interesting question. Hmm. I mean, let me break that down into two parts.

Leon Goltsman 26:58

So the first thing is That's how politicians answer questions. You ask them one thing, they'll break it down, they'll give you an answer, and it's got nothing to do with the question.

Zina Kaye 27:07

Well, it's just chillaxed modernization, diversity. They're three, you know, words that you know need a bit of weaving, don't they?

Leon Goltsman 27:17

Yep, that's exactly what they say.

Power, Choice And Meaningful Connections

Zina Kaye 27:21

So um, you know, environmentalism and climate adaptation for chillax people means we all really enjoy our lives, we enjoy our our creature comforts, we have an extraordinary level of lifestyle here in Australia, and I don't want to separate anybody from their from their aeroplane rides or their stake or whatever it is, you know. I don't I don't think we need to do that. But one uh thing that I do think that we can do, for example, is take uh take an example from permaculture and not mow our grass shorter than 10 centimetres. Because then, you know, that creates a um micro climate which traps carbon and so on and so forth, has multiple benefits. And you know, that it's it's all these small changes that we can do, and then but you don't have to do anything, it's like a set and forget, you know. It's like it's like watering in ground, having having a bit of plumbing tube that goes into your garden bed where you put your scraps is much easier and cheaper than sending it somewhere else.

Leon Goltsman 28:32

And usually they send our recycled waste by trains and other transport that uses fuel. Go figure, the hypocrisy. Yes. And people buy into that.

Zina Kaye 28:41

Yes. I was actually um complaining to my to my younger son uh yesterday as he put a tin in the, you know, tin tomatoes in the main rubbish, and I said, well, council has to pay more to separate that out. So just with modernisation, so um I did propose to Waverly Council to be thinker in residence and do these projection artworks for the launch of Fogo to basically represent rubbish and green waste and and food waste in a really beautiful way using um using photography to and projection at night um on some of our kind of monuments. That's fantastic. Yeah, I think.

Leon Goltsman 29:20

What a great idea.

Zina Kaye 29:21

I know it is. I didn't get I didn't get the thinker in residence, but I still would really like to.

Leon Goltsman 29:25

Just about it, it's still it's it's the process.

Zina Kaye 29:27

Yes.

Leon Goltsman 29:28

But if we try sometime, we can get what we need. That's it. So uh Zina, always a pleasure to talk to you. And one of the things is that you inspired so many to find courage in experimentation and playfulness. For listeners who feel stuck or afraid of failure, what is the first step that they can take to turn curiosity into contribution?

Zina Kaye 29:52

Ooh. If people uh want to um use, you know, like use their curiosity. Do some experimentation, then doing it within your community often is a great place to start. Whatever community you belong to, there are always problems to solve. And that curiosity starts with asking questions around what problems need to be solved. But just start with something close to your heart and grow it from there.

Leon Goltsman 30:20

Well, that is some really good advice there. Zina, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna love listening to it and they're gonna want to learn more. If anyone wants to connect with you, what is the best way for them to contact you?

Zina Kaye 30:34

So thank you so much, Leon. I've just had the best time and you're a lot of fun, and I hope that we uh maybe get to do another episode over cake perhaps or or something. Um cake.

Leon Goltsman 30:46

Did you say cake?

Zina Kaye 30:49

So if people want to find me, I'm on LinkedIn, Zina Kaye. I have a little website called Growth Dynamics, and I'm on Twitter at Zina Kaye. And uh you can find me at Holly Sydney as well.

Leon Goltsman 31:03

Um I'm gonna have all those things in the show notes as well. So you don't have to rush and get a pen, those people listening, and then um and then after click below, and then click below, all the information will be there. Zina, thank you so much. It's really good. Thank you.

Zina Kaye 31:24

Please like and subscribe, Leon.

Leon Goltsman 31:26

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That was fantastic.

Zina Kaye 31:30

Thank you so much, Leon.

Innovation With Heart: The Anawim Lunches

Leon Goltsman 31:32

Now that was a conversation bursting with creativity, courage, and chaos in the best possible way. Zina Kaye reminds us that innovation doesn't just happen in straight lines. It's messy, unpredictable, and often born from the ideas we're told won't work. But as Zina clearly shows us, when we stay curious, play with possibilities, and dare to experiment, we open the door to breakthroughs that can and often do change everything. If there's one thing to take away from today's conversation, it's this. Don't silence the noise. I'm gonna repeat that again. Don't silence the noise. Because whether it's the laughter of the kids in the background or the spark of a wild idea, sometimes the things we overlook are exactly what makes life and innovation meaningful. A huge thank you once again to Nepean Advanced Rehab and Allied Health Center, where every day is about empowering movement and restoring life. And of course, Niaz Cannoth for his ongoing support of good people doing great things and for helping amplify the voices of those making a real difference. If today's episode made you smile, sparked an idea, or challenged how you think, share it with someone ready to embrace a little chaos and curiosity in their own life. I'm Leon Goltsman and this has been Engaging Conversations where purpose meets people. And until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and let's continue doing great things together.