#48 - How Forensic Accountants Find The Real Business Value

Forensic accounting is often seen as a last-resort service, something you turn to when things have already gone wrong. But as this conversation reveals, that mindset can come at a cost.

In this episode, I sit down with Kirrilly Waring from Hall Chadwick, a forensic accountant with over 30 years of experience, to unpack what the work really looks like in practice. From business valuations and shareholder disputes through to family law matters, economic loss, fraud investigations, and tracing funds when trust breaks down.

At the centre of it all is clarity. Clarity when decisions matter, and fairness when outcomes are contested.

We explore why business owners often misread the value of their own business, and how factors like emotion, one strong year, personal expenses, or informal arrangements can distort the true picture. Kirrilly explains how market value is assessed, why experts often work within a range rather than a single number, and what makes a valuation credible and defensible.

We also discuss independence, the role of an expert witness, and why objectivity is critical when outcomes are under scrutiny.

From there, the conversation shifts to prevention. The governance habits, agreements, and internal controls that can reduce risk and avoid disputes before they arise.

Finally, we look at modern complexity, including cryptocurrency, the speed of digital transactions, and the role and limitations of AI in professional work.

A practical and insightful conversation for business owners, directors, and anyone responsible for making decisions where clarity matters.

Transcript

Why Forensic Accounting Matters

Leon Goltsman 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Engaging Conversations. I'm your host, Leon Goltsman, and today's episode is one of those conversations that challenges the way we think about something most people assume they never need it. My special guest today is Kirrilly Waring from Hall Chadwick, a highly experienced forensic accountant with over 30 years in the field, working across business valuations, disputes, family law matters, and complex financial investigations. Now this episode is a little different because when people hear forensic accounting, they often think of something technical, distant, or only relevant when things go wrong. But what became clear through this conversation is that it sits much closer to everyday business than most people realise. And at its core, this isn't just about the numbers. It's about clarity when decisions matter. It's about fairness when outcomes are contested. And it's about helping people navigate moments when there's uncertainty, pressure, and often a breakdown in trust. Because behind every evaluation, every dispute, and every financial decision, there are real people, relationships, and consequences. And in this episode, we explore the gap between the perception and reality when it comes to business value. Why independence and objectivity are critical in high-stakes situations, how proactive governance and clear documentation can prevent disputes before they arise, and how the landscape is evolving from digital assets like cryptocurrency through to the role and limitations of AI. A special thank you to Nepean Advance Rehab and Allied Health Centre for supporting conversations like this. As always, this conversation is intended to provide general insight and perspective rather than specific financial or legal advice. So whether you're a business owner, a director, or someone responsible for making important business decisions, this conversation will give you a different perspective on the role clarity plays in achieving better outcomes. This is a conversation about understanding what's really there, not just what we think is there. So without further ado, let's get into it.

Kirrilly Waring 2:17

My name is Kirley Waring. I'm a chartered accountant and I've worked in forensic accounting for 30 years, and I love what I do because each day is different, each matter that comes in the door is different, and I've help people solve problems. A summary of forensic accounting is just analysing financial information and packaging it up with our skill set to use in litigation matters, so for the purposes of court proceedings. We're an independent expert that can analyse and investigate the information appropriately to put it in a useful report for the purposes of the court proceedings.

What Forensic Accountants Actually Do

Leon Goltsman 3:02

Well, when you say useful report, for me it sounds like financial truth telling that outlines decisions that carry real consequences.

Kirrilly Waring 3:10

That's we're getting really deep here already. Look, the type of work we do goes into various different streams. So we do valuations for dispute matters. So that might be for shareholder disputes, contractual disputes, valuations for family law matters, so where we value the businesses and the companies and the partnerships in a family law property proceeding. We also do quantification of damages, so for personal injury matters, economic loss assessment. So I used to do a lot of work in dust diseases, uh, where James Hardy, there were a lot of claims made against James Hardy, and we would project out what the plaintiff would have earned had the exposure to the dust not occurred, and then deduct off what they actually earned. And so their loss is the difference. So we would assist on many claims there, or even motor accident victims, we would do economic loss assessments in that regard as well. The other stream would be investigations for fraud and misappropriation of funds and tracing. So we do a lot of work to support our in-house insolvency division as well. So the actual output, our work output depends on the type of work stream we're doing.

When Businesses Need A Forensic Expert

Leon Goltsman 4:31

Well, it seems like it's not a one-size-fits-all solution. Most business owners don't even seem to know how to engage a forensic accountant until it happens when they really need it. What are the key moments where business owners realize that they need someone like you?

Kirrilly Waring 4:48

Well, business owners would need a forensic accountant in the instance that they want to exit a company. If it's a shareholder and they're not happy with the direction the firm's going, or they're worried about whether the directors are acting in the best interests of the company, or for whatever reason, it might be personal health reasons, they need to get out of the company. Then we can come in and value the company as a whole and then work out what that individual shareholding is worth. So usually you get an expert involved there because it's not just a straight mathematical calculation. There's a lot involved in working out the value of a business and then the value of the entity that it's sitting in. So there is some expertise there. So that's why they get us involved in that way. And often they do get surprised because they think it might be worth X, and we say, well, on a market value basis, it's worth Y. And we have to then go through the reasons why it's different from what they're expecting.

Leon Goltsman 5:51

Especially during disputes and when there's breakdowns in trust, very important major decisions need to be made. And you would certainly come along and provide some clarity.

Why Owners Get Value Wrong

Kirrilly Waring 6:04

Yes, yes. And uh sometimes we're asked to get involved earlier on uh in just reviewing a shareholders' agreement as well. Um although we're not lawyers, sometimes we can just make sure that any financial clauses seem to cover all the elements, or it may even be in a shareholders' agreement that they say should uh there be a dispute or um an exit that you appoint an independent accountant to value or to arbitrate the issue so we can get involved there. And then obviously in family law matters, yes, it's it's usually businesses of a certain size that um justifies the cost of engaging a forensic accountant, it's worthwhile getting it valued as well.

Leon Goltsman 6:51

And you did mention earlier the gap between perception and reality. There is often a significant gap between what owners believe their business is worth and what the evidence shows. And you've you've touched on that briefly. Where do you most commonly see the gap between perception and reality?

Kirrilly Waring 7:07

Uh well, because I've done a lot of family law valuations, mostly they're done on this market value uh basis. And what that means is you're basically uh working out the value of something in a hypothetical market, hypothetical third-party purchaser with a willing but not desperate buyer and a willing but not desperate seller. So that's the there's a more formal definition, but that's in essence what market value is. So it doesn't take into account any special benefits, but it's for a third-party purchaser, where some valuations are put on the value-to-owner concept, which takes into account special benefits. And there was a particular case, Gare versus Barlow, if they did a value of the uh entity under market value concept, it was worth $50,000, and under a value-to-owner concept, it was worth $400,000.

Leon Goltsman 8:04

Wow, that's a big difference.

Kirrilly Waring 8:05

Huge discrepancy. And the judge actually adopted the value-to-owner concept, which we were all surprised at because most valuations that I come across are done on a market value concept. So the difference was that the wife was operating her business in the premises that was owned by her father. So she wasn't paying market rent. Ah, so that's how they evaluated it. Yeah, so there was a big difference there. So other times when you're running your own business, you may not pay yourself a market salary. So, but when we do evaluation for market value purposes, we would take into account what a commercial third-party remuneration would be for the owner having regard to what they do in the business each day. So there is a big discrepancy there. And sometimes people like to put through their AMG, C63 through the business. All of that has to come out for market value purposes. So it can create a very different value. Or it may even be that they're basing it on the last year of trading, which was going gangbusters for whatever reason. But for valuation purposes, it's the present value of future cash flows, what's maintainable in the future. So you can't just base it on one fantastic year that may not be maintainable in the future. So you've got to have regard to other things rather than that.

Leon Goltsman 9:25

It's got to have consistency. That's right. That's right. And I and I've noticed as well a lot of the people they tend to put value on things uh because they're emotionally attached to it as well. And that's something that they may not have considered.

Kirrilly Waring 9:38

Yes, that's right. That's why it's very important to bring in an independent accounting expert because we're unbiased, we're impartial, and it doesn't matter which side of the fence we're sitting on, we're giving an independent view of the values.

Leon Goltsman 9:53

And you've you've got plenty of experience, so you know what to look for, but most people haven't even realized.

Preventing Disputes With Clear Agreements

Kirrilly Waring 9:58

Yeah, that's right. I think 20, 30 years of experience, you tend to see a few different things along the way. Yes.

Leon Goltsman 10:05

And you've probably seen many disputes as well that could have been avoided in the first place if there was a bit of clarity ahead of time. Do you find that sometimes as well?

Kirrilly Waring 10:15

Yeah, definitely uh I would recommend to avoid disputes, have very clear uh documents, documented arrangements in place and clear agreements, get a lawyer involved to document an agreement properly with all the relevant clauses, exit clauses, um, you know, whatever misbehaviour clauses covering whatever needs to be covered, because you're not always going to be best friends in a business. Somebody is going to die at some stage, you know, that all has to actually.

Leon Goltsman 10:49

Yeah, that's right. That's right. You could have a partner who may go home and paint everything as rosy, but yet in reality, it could be completely different.

Kirrilly Waring 11:00

Yeah, so even just to make sure in your shareholders' agreement that if if somebody gets divorced or dies, that the shares then can revert back to the other owners rather than going to the wife or whatever else of the owner, just making sure you've got the right to then purchase the additional shares. I mean, all of that just to maintain control and direction over the company, because you just can't you can't be sure as to how a party's going to act going forward.

Leon Goltsman 11:30

So, I mean, we've talked partially about businesses, about individuals. When people say, Oh, look, it's not personal, it's business. If it is business, business is personal.

Kirrilly Waring 11:40

Yeah, well, that's true, that's true. But we uh we have to maintain independence. So, for instance, in economic loss matters, and I've done institutional abuse matters, um, where people will claim, but for the abuse by the church, um, I would have become a doctor or a surgeon, and as a result of all the impact of the abuse, I can barely get out of bed each day. And and we read the medical reports and they're harrowing, awful stuff, awful, awful stuff. But we need to read those to make sure the instructions we're given by the lawyers is consistent with all the other expert advice from the medical people appointed. But then we have to still maintain independence. So you want to make sure that you still come to a calculation of economic loss that's independent and takes that on board, but you can't get too emotionally involved. Yeah, yeah.

Leon Goltsman 12:40

And that's professionalism. Yes, that's and that's what you can count on when you're dealing with an established organization like Hall Chadwick.

Controls That Stop Fraud Early

Kirrilly Waring 12:49

Yes, yes, that's right. Our reputation is on the line to maintain independence, but also if you've got a lot of his experience um prior to the firm or even while working at the firm, that we know to how to conduct ourselves as an independent expert. Yes.

Leon Goltsman 13:04

As you would. Now, how can businesses use forensic thinking proactively rather than reactively? Because you get to see a lot of people do things on a wig to some degree.

Kirrilly Waring 13:15

Yes, yes. Many disputes can be avoided if there's upfront clarity and prevention. We talked about before having agreements in place, nice tight shareholder agreements, uh, making sure you have all your documentation up to date, whether it's um amendments to any trustees and updating all your records with ASIC, all of that is very important for transparency and governance, making sure that's all up to date. But even policies and procedures and controls in an actual business to hopefully prevent any fraud and misappropriation of assets. That's really important. So you don't have the person that's putting cash in the bank and paying all the bills and is a signatory, sole signatory on everything. You have to have controls in place and regular review to make sure somebody's not doing the wrong thing because we'd like to think everybody's honest and as ethical as us, but the reality is they're not. And it does happen, and we've come across situations where there's been misappropriation of funds, even by one particular matter I worked on. She was a major shareholder in the business and a director of the of the business, and she was still misappropriating funds for her own purposes, and so they didn't quite litigate, but they asked me to prepare a report so that they could negotiate to have her removed as an operating person in the business. So she's still a shareholder, but she's no longer operating in day-to-day activities of the business, so they could maintain the control going forward. So sometimes our reports, our findings are used as negotiation tools.

Leon Goltsman 15:02

And it's also good because the people who are put in position of directorship, that's a fiduciary duty. Even if they're doing the right thing, the fact that they didn't investigate could put them into trouble as well.

Kirrilly Waring 15:17

Yes, that's right. That's right. There's fiduciary duties of directors, and and this is what we find often on in in insolvency matters where we assist in investigations. Yes, they'll go after the directors if they haven't been across all of what they should have been.

Leon Goltsman 15:32

And even and even though they did the right thing and they have followed all the processes, they have fell asleep at the wheel on one occasion and they can come undone.

Kirrilly Waring 15:41

Oh, yeah, that's there's a lot of uh responsibility of being a director of an entity, that's right. So they need to make sure that there's proper controls, policies, and procedures in place that the entity follows as well as themselves. And even in family law situations, often the husband and wife will be directors and shareholders, but maybe just one of the parties is more actively running the business and making all the decisions. And I've seen in one particular instance where he was signing as the wife and declaring dividends to himself and trust distributions as her, and she had no idea that that was going on. And so this is where I say be aware of what you're signing up to, making sure that you're across your duties as to whatever you've signed up to, but also that for your own purposes that you know what's going on, be aware of what's going on in the business, be aware of what your signature's being put to. Spontaneously ask for the latest financial statements or management accounts or dividend statements, all of that. If you're a director or a shareholder, you can, well, director, you can ask for this information. So be on top of what's out there so that you don't get yourself into trouble.

Independence And Duty To Court

Leon Goltsman 17:00

And this is a good reminder because a lot of people get so caught up in other things that they forget. Trust and independence is your credibility.

Kirrilly Waring 17:09

Well, independence is is fundamental in the role as an expert accountant. In court matters, uh, we have what's called an expert witness code of conduct. And our duty is actually to the court, not the party paying us. So our duty is to be independent, unbiased, and not swaying towards one side or the other. So that way the court gets a balanced view and more accurate and complete view of what the situation is, whether it's a valuation, whether it's a quantification of loss and damages, an economic loss assessment, whatever it is, it's it's a balanced, unbiased, independent view. So for my reputation, for the firm's reputation, but also for the benefit of the parties and for the court process to be upheld, independence is critical. But not all uh expert accountants out there are as independent and um yeah.

Leon Goltsman 18:11

And we've seen councils, local councils, not mentioning any names, of course, have come up with a discrepancy of I think it was to the tune of $50 million, might be a bit more, and ended up going into administration. And and for a council to go into administration, somebody has a few questions to answer for. I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put you on the spot on this one because it wasn't your firm that was dealing with that. But that just goes to show why it's so important to get somebody who is credible, who has a good track record of doing the right thing.

Kirrilly Waring 18:50

Yes, absolutely. That's right. And ultimately, these people that aren't independent and unbiased will be found out and will be criticized by a judge and won't get work going forward. But how does it help people at the end of the day, really?

Valuations Use Ranges And Assumptions

Leon Goltsman 19:04

It's just well, this council and that meant that they had to bring in administrators to run it. But any of these discrepancies, there's always going to be some kind of a dispute over a valuation. Do you do you find that in some cases?

Kirrilly Waring 19:21

Well, uh yes, there with valuation, it's not a precise science. So there is no real one number that's perfectly right because it's built up based on assumptions made and variables that you adopt. So the idea is we normally give a range of values that we think the value is likely to sit within based on our assumptions along the way. But all of the assumptions should be very clear in the report. All everything that's been adopted, it should be very easy for somebody to follow. Oh, the reason why they got to that figure is because they, for instance, adopted maintainable earnings of $100,000 and an earnings multiple of this, and they adopted that earnings multiple because of all this support they provided. So it should be very clear as to how that was arrived at, but usually it's the case that you would do a range. So in economic loss assessments, often we do different scenarios, but for the incident, the person may have been an average weekly earning person, or they could have been a teacher or a doctor or whatever we've been instructed to adopt. So then the judge, or for settlement purposes, there's a range of outcomes and they can decide how to best come to a value. So, because it's not it's not a precise science, it's very dependent on the variables you adopt.

Leon Goltsman 20:52

Yes, yes. And these taught you a lot about people. What experiences taught you most about the human side of the financial conflict?

Kirrilly Waring 21:02

Uh well, my experience has taught me that, uh, particularly in family law, which I've, as I said, I've done a lot of, that by the time I'm called in to value things, it's usually quite a bit way down the track, and the husband and wife are very angry with each other, and they'll have very different views on what the value is, and very different views on what should be valued, even. So for instance, I had this one matter where there was a whole different structure of businesses and there was a trust on the side. And the husband said, Oh no, you don't need to worry about the trust because nothing's in that, it's just a flow through mechanism. But the key was the fact that it did, all the shareholdings did flow through the trust. It actually changed the value of things because when you go through a trust, you have to take into account who's controlling the trust, the pattern of distributions in the past, who are the beneficiaries, all of the It's not just a straight pro writer of the shareholding anymore. It's who's controlling that trust. So he obviously didn't want us to look into that because he controlled the trust.

Leon Goltsman 22:12

And we're seeing a lot more people using trusts now.

Kirrilly Waring 22:15

Yes, that's right. So you realize that people are only, uh particularly in family law, when it's got to that stage, they're very much about their own self-interest rather than what's for the benefit of maintaining peace going forward and moving on and starting afresh. And I I I find that quite an eye-opener because they get so nitty-gritty down to the financial dollar. And I I think that wouldn't it be lovely if you can just say, look, that's a shame it didn't work out, but we had some good times.

Leon Goltsman 22:50

Maybe that's what they actually want to do, but then each party has a lawyer, and maybe those lawyers are the ones that are guiding them.

Kirrilly Waring 22:57

I think it just comes back to the fact why it's important to get an independent view as to what the value of a situation is, a structure is, rather than just the parties that are very emotional and very distressed as to what their view on is on things, to get an independent expert involved to say, okay, well, let's put emotion aside. Let's look at the actual true underlying dynamics, financial and legal dynamics of this situation with the lawyers involved, and and work out what the value is here for the pool of assets.

Leon Goltsman 23:33

And it's more likely to result in the fair outcome.

Kirrilly Waring 23:36

Yes, I think that's right. I think that's that's what my goal is to get a fair outcome for people to walk away, feel satisfied, and to be able to start again with their lives.

Leon Goltsman 23:47

And all great things usually start with the beginning.

Kirrilly Waring 23:52

All great things involve a forensic accountant.

Leon Goltsman 23:57

Or end with a forensic accountant.

Kirrilly Waring 23:59

Yes, that's right. That would be better.

Leon Goltsman 24:02

Um, so modern businesses are more complex now than ever. We're seeing it, we're seeing with digital assets, data trails, and evolving risks. How has this complexity changing the way you approach investigations and valuations?

Kirrilly Waring 24:15

Uh, yes, well, uh, digital assets in particular have really changed the dynamic of valuations because, particularly with cryptocurrency, they're extremely fast moving and very hard to trace.

Leon Goltsman 24:28

And I was going to mention cryptocurrency, and again, you beat me to it.

Kirrilly Waring 24:32

Uh, particularly because they can move cross-border, across jurisdiction. And so whether it's um an insolvency matter or it's a family law matter or whatever matter it is, you have to really get an expert involved as soon as possible, absolutely as soon as possible, to try and trace where it's at. Because a they're so fast moving, it's very hard to track.

Leon Goltsman 24:55

And so a day can mean a big difference.

Kirrilly Waring 24:58

Huge, huge. That's right. So, particularly um with digital assets, I would recommend if you're concerned, any concerns there, get someone involved, ASAP, to try and trace where it's gone. With the impact of AI and and new softwares and technologies all the time. If we've got a huge amount of data to analyze, we would look at appropriate softwares which can make our job easier and more timely and cost efficient. So that's the for the benefit of all the parties as well. So that's a benefit. But I'm very wary of using AI, and I mean, a lot of people want to use ChatGPT to write reports and whatever else submissions. Oh no way. I like to write things from scratch and make sure that I've used appropriate sources.

Leon Goltsman 25:45

And I think with AI as well, a lot of people become too dependent on it. And and this is the other thing. A lot of people think, oh, well, why do I need a good lawyer, a good accountant? Because I've got ChatGPT. But um, we know that ChatGPT can make things up.

Kirrilly Waring 26:01

ChatGPT can make things up, and it was not that long ago when I put in, it was probably just a few years ago, and I put in what's two plus four, and it couldn't do that. So let's be mindful that uh it is not as good as 20, 30 years. And I think an accounting, we may not know all the answers, but we're taught how to find the answer.

Leon Goltsman 26:23

Yes.

Kirrilly Waring 26:23

You're taught how to look for information, research, and things like that. And just to rely on some AI, you lose the ability to go and find the information yourself and to critically analyze what's being put in front of you.

Leon Goltsman 26:35

Yeah, and it does. It takes away your thinking and it tells you what to do. Because a lot of people say, Oh, yeah, I got it from AI, they don't even question it. And then they go out there. What's more dangerous than having the wrong answer is actually going out there and trying to convince everyone it's the right answer.

Kirrilly Waring 26:53

That's right.

Leon Goltsman 26:53

We've seen that a lot.

Kirrilly Waring 26:54

We've been told actually one of the lawyers I've worked with in Adelaide, she's recently put forward an article about um use of AI in the legal system because it was making up cases. Yeah, yeah. Frightening. That is frightening. Yes.

Consequences Of Poor Financial Insight

Leon Goltsman 27:08

That is frightening. I can just imagine going in front of the judge and they're going, which one was that again?

Kirrilly Waring 27:14

Don't recall that, precedent. That's right.

Leon Goltsman 27:17

So look, the biggest risk in business is often not knowing what you know, but what you assume, what people assume. What are the real consequences of operating without clear financial insight?

Kirrilly Waring 27:29

We talked about this before. Operating with clear financial insights is very important to make sure that you fulfilled your role as as director of a company, to make sure that somebody hasn't abused your role without you realizing. As I talked about the husband and wife situation where the husband has been signing um distributions and dividends for on behalf, well, as the wife, not on behalf of the wife, as the wife. So it's critical that you are constantly across all of what you've signed up for, knowing what you're involved in, regularly analysing things, not waiting till uh doomsday. So be proactive in all of that situation. And even if you have your own business, being proactive in policies and procedures and all of your constituent documents, like your trusted shareholder agreements, articles of association, all up to date so that you know that you don't get yourself into trouble, that it's fully transparent. If anything goes wrong, we can clearly use that to determine the value or quantification of loss. All of that's just very important upfront. It's it's preventative maintenance.

Leon Goltsman 28:46

Well, what you've just said in three words leadership, responsibility, and preparedness.

Kirrilly Waring 28:52

Yes.

Governance Habits Of Strong Businesses

Leon Goltsman 28:53

And so strong leadership is not just about growth, it's about being prepared for the complexity. So, Kirilly, what separates businesses that navigate these challenges well from those that don't?

Kirrilly Waring 29:04

Well, I think the best way for those businesses that want to grow, you would make sure that you have all of your financial and legal documents up to date, all the I's dotted and T's crossed. Uh, you make sure you get all the relevant expertise involved early on so that it's not too late. If you wanted your documents all nice and tight and controlled, you'd get the relevant lawyer to get involved there. If you had any kind of dispute, whether it's a workplace dispute, contractual dispute, getting the relevant lawyer involved there, because lawyers operate in different expertise as well. Or if you have any kind of concerns about misappropriation of funds, or whether there's a lack of controls in place, you can get a forensic accountant in to do a fraud assessment and things like that. So those practices are good governance, transparency, and discipline so that a big good business stays as a good business and grows as a good business going forward without getting themselves into trouble. And even in complex organizational structures where the business is growing and they've got trusts involved and trustee companies and then head companies, all of that's very important again to have everything well documented. Have a good organizational structure, diagram in place, have all your relevant documents uploaded with to ASIC and all your financial statements if you're if you need to be audited, if for the reporting requirements, making sure all of that is up to date and going from there. That's really critical for a good business to grow and expand and stay a good business.

Leon Goltsman 30:50

And that's working with the best people trained in their own field.

Kirrilly Waring 30:54

Yes, that's right, with the the person with the relevant expertise and getting people involved early before it's too late.

Fair Outcomes And How To Reach Out

Leon Goltsman 31:02

Security, at its core, forensic accounting is more than just numbers. It's about decisions that shape people, businesses, and futures. When you step back, what do you believe your work ultimately gives to the people and businesses you support?

Kirrilly Waring 31:18

I believe that getting a forensic accountant involved, and particularly myself and Hul Chadwick, that we do provide fairness and an independent view that gives the parties confidence in the outcome and it gives clarity so that they're able to get assurance as to the outcome there and move on and reset. So, for instance, often I'm just uh asked queries along the way, and it may not even be to get evaluation assessment, it may just help them navigate the process involved with another expert. Sometimes you get involved as what's called a shadow expert and just by one of the parties, and they often may just be asking the information to make sure that the joint-appointed expert is doing the right thing. And so I'm giving them assurance, yes, this is going along the right path, or no, they shouldn't be doing this, just helping them along the way, and it gives clarity, certainty, confidence, and comfort as well.

Leon Goltsman 32:22

And guide and guidance.

Kirrilly Waring 32:23

Yes, yes.

Leon Goltsman 32:24

And sometimes that's all we need to get to the next stage of our life.

Kirrilly Waring 32:29

Yeah, that's exactly right. And and to get a fair outcome. So I I think of forensic accounting as problem solving, but I think particularly our division, we're very approachable. We really want to help people solve the problem in a fair way. So uh if you do have any kind of dispute, you can come to us and and we're not there just to rip out free fees from you and and you know um make your life worse. We're really trying to help resolve the dispute as best we can by analysing the financial information with clarity so that people know what our findings are, but people know how we got to those findings. So rather than just spewing a whole lot of information at people, it's trying to help them along.

Leon Goltsman 33:18

And empowering them along the way.

Kirrilly Waring 33:20

Yes, that's right.

Leon Goltsman 33:21

So curely, it's such a pleasure. A lot of people are gonna listen to this, they'll want to know more about this because this really is transforming the way people perceived forensic accounting to realizing that this is something that is essentially part of their everyday life that they can rely upon and utilize.

Kirrilly Waring 33:40

I think that's right. It's it's not a scary concept. And and because we have these different streams in which we're involved, I mean it could very well happen that you need a forensic accountant, whether it's in family law, whether it's in some kind of dispute in the business, whether it's in personal injury situations, that forensic accountants are involved, but really to produce a fair outcome and try and resolve the dispute. If you need any further information, I'm happy to have a chat with people. Uh, I always enjoy meeting new people, so I'm very happy to talk directly with somebody. There's more information on the Hall Chadwick website. I'm a forensic accounting, it lists the people involved, including myself, with a bit of a bio there. So feel free to reach out and ask me any queries, and hopefully, we can help you along and resolve any disputes you have.

Leon Goltsman 34:31

Fantastic, Kirille, and the website is hallchadwick.com.au.

Kirrilly Waring 34:36

Correct, thank you so much.

Leon Goltsman 34:37

Lovely to sit down with you. Thank you very much.

Kirrilly Waring 34:39

Thank you, Leon. Have a good day.

Leon Goltsman 34:43

Now that was a conversation I really valued, and I hope you did too. Because spending time with Kirille and unpacking forensic accounting was not only insightful, but a reminder that behind every number there's a story, a decision, and real consequences. But what stood out for me is that this work goes far beyond resolving disputes. It's about bringing clarity where there's uncertainty and helping people move forward with confidence. My sincere thanks to Kirille for sharing her perspective so openly and for the great work that she continues to do with integrity and independence. And to all our listeners, of course, our team and those working quietly behind the scenes in roles like this. Thank you, thank you so much. It's often the work you don't see that matters most. Now, as we look ahead, we're approaching a big milestone for engaging conversations. That's right, we're about to hit our 50th episode and we've got something exciting, some really exciting conversations, a few surprises, and some important updates coming your way. We'll also be reconnecting with some past guests who continue to make real impact. That includes Survivors of Us, who recently secured a $2.8 million grant to expand their work, supporting individuals and families doing it tough. Something I had the real privilege of being involved in as a patron and MC at their grand opening. We've also got Hillview Op Shop in Morissette, which has now contributed to over $2 million giving back to the community, supporting people in very real and practical ways. Now there are all kinds of stories that matter. Real people, real impact, real outcomes, we'll continue working closely with individuals and organizations across the disability and community space, building connections that strengthen and support our communities. So if you haven't already, follow the program, share it with someone who needs to hear it, and stay connected because if you have a real conversation worth sharing or know someone who does, I'd genuinely love to hear from you. I'm Leon Goltsman. Until next time, stay aware, stay connected, and let's keep building stronger communities together.