EP 3 George Paap

Meet George Pap, a foundational figure in the Burning Man community who served as the first regional contact and helped establish the oldest regional burn in Austin, Texas. The conversation captures Pap’s personal evolution from a solo traveler at the 1997 event to a community leader who transformed his passion for "tiki fest" parties into Burning Man Texas (later Flipside), an event that mirrored the parent festival's exponential growth. A central theme is the transformative power of volunteerism, as Pap illustrates how the festival provides a platform for individuals to develop professional skills, discover new career paths, and build enduring social networks that function like a global "secret society." Ultimately, the text serves as a historical testimonial to the cultural expansion of the Burning Man ethos, highlighting how the "temporary city" in the desert fosters a permanent sense of interconnectedness and personal growth that persists long after the fires have burned out.

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the shadow of the man. Uh this This is our third episode and our guest today is the one and only George Pap. George, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much, Andy.

So, George, uh I I think you're aren't you the very you're the very first regional contact, right? Or you were the first

the first regional formed probably the first regional burn. The oldest regional burn.

Yes. So, the story is Um we we were the first burn and it was in like June 8th. Um 1998 and um I had come back from Burning Man. Um and and had an amazing time. I basically I'll give you a little bit more of the backstory.

Well, we'll get into that like a little later. Like right now it's just kind of briefly just kind of like you know like

who you are within the Bernie man world to give like people an idea you know.

Okay. So actually where what I'd like to start is uh was where where it all started. So where

where did you come from? Where

Sure. Hi. Um

where' it all start?

Well, it all started the interesting thing is I went to school uh I got my degree in physics at Berkeley

in 1987.

So I was actually in the Bay Area when the man first started in ' 86, but I didn't have I was in school. I had no idea. I didn't

So where were you uh where were you born? Like where did you grow up? Sure. I grew I was born in California in San Abyispo, mids south coast.

Um and then I moved to Pittsburgh and got junior high in high school in Pittsburgh.

Okay.

And then I moved to um I actually spent a couple years Vermont in my youth and

Oh, really? Where where in Vermont?

Springfield.

Ah, okay. Yeah. Because I spent uh like my wife grew up in Putney, Vermont, which is just by 30 minutes from there. Yeah. Yeah. I was actually just there like for two weeks just this summer. But anyway, it's not about me. This is about you.

So, um yeah. So, so it was interesting because you know Burning Man actually started while I was in the Bay Area.

Okay.

And uh

you went to school at Berkeley as an undergraduate.

Yes. And so a lot of Burning Man people were were at Berkeley at that time. If I had just run the right crowds, I would have almost certainly been involved in the earlier the early early years. But uh but for me, I was uh I worked for Motorola. I was right out of college. I went to I went I got a degree in physics, went to Motorola. I was a device engineer at a factory, you know, for computer chips.

And um I had a a girlfriend that kindly turned me on to paganism. And so I was involved in camping and and basically a pagan group that had camp outs and stuff like that. That's when I started camping and really enjoying um this kind of community of of like-minded people and um I was working for Motorola and one of my friends said, "Hey, have you ever heard he heard of Burning Man?" And this was 1996.

And I said I said, "No, what is that?" He explained it to me and I said, "Wow, that sounds pretty awesome." And the thing was I already had a party planned and South Padre, a ticky party on the beach with my friends. So, I already had some some plans for that Labor Day. So, I said, "Well, maybe next year." Well, then the Bruce Sterling article came out, right, with Burnley Man the New American Holiday, right? And that was like really the first mainstream was on Wired magazine and it was, you know, like what is this?

Um, and um so, um Yeah, I have to edit this out just 1996 you said the new came out.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So the wire the wired article um you know when I saw that I was like I got to go.

And then I got a new job within Motorola. I was in a corporate reo in Phoenix. I was working about 60 hours a week and my boss was a jerk and I was just like oh you know I said I was going to go to burn Man, I'm in Phoenix. Birdie Man's not that far away. Not that expensive. So, I decided at that time, Birding Man started on Wednesday.

Yeah.

And so, I decided I'd go and I I at that time, Birding Man hadn't gotten their permanent. So,

what year was this? Was this uh

It would have been 97.

97. Okay. That was the year that was on was the Walapai Playa like uh

Yes, that's correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that and um which is it you know was my first burn so I didn't know any you know any difference but I do have friends that I've met you in Austin had gone to the 96 burn which is of course is where uh you know Burning Man really transitioned from

Yeah. That was my first year. That was but anyway people can hear all about that in my episode. But yeah it's it was

it was kind of nuts. Yeah. I actually only went for like the weekend like I think we got there Saturday and left like Monday. something. But yeah,

well, and that's I think that's what I think is kind of interesting is how Bernie man didn't even start out as a whole week. I mean, it really was kind of a weekend thing. And um so I was I was in a deep depression, you know, I I I broken up with my girlfriend. I had a job that was very demanding. And so I I literally just that night, that Sunday, booked my airfare, rented a car. And

So you flew like to Reno, rented a car, PLO rented a car and it ended up being this huge boat. I mean, it was like a Lincoln. It was huge. From work.

Did you just go by yourself or did you go?

Yeah, I went by just went by myself.

And did you Was there anybody you were camping with or you were going to like meet there?

No, I had no idea. I So, I literally I went to Costco. I didn't even know you needed a membership, but I bought like $300 worth of stuff. So, they they like let me let me buy it.

Get it for free. Yeah.

And I didn't know what to get. So, I got like a bag of oranges, a pallet, blueberry muffins, uh, like three cases of beer, and, um, and I don't know, some other snacks and stuff, but I mean,

what more do you need?

Yeah, what more do you need? And, um, I got there about midnight and I drove in the middle of center camp and I rode down my window and I asked, "Where do I park?"

Anywhere.

And then, yeah, I mean, the guy was kind like, uh, well, actually, you know, I think back up the road a couple couple lanes and over there's some good spots. So, I went and and camped there, slept in my car the first night, you know, and then I had a tent I set up. And it was really cool because that first morning at Burning Man, um, I met like a film professor from NYU that was doing 16 or eight millimeter films of stuff. And I met a couple grad students that were on their way to California. And that's what stop on the way there. And then I just met all these really cool people. I mean, really cool people. I went to this much, which was a very infamous camp.

That was probably one of the like two years they were there or something. I think it was like 1978 like Yeah.

Yeah. It was It was pretty outrageous. But anyway, like I was chatting with a lady there and I'm like, "Well, what do you do?" Oh, I fly around the world. You know those paintings for um ski resorts for snow skiing? The trail maps.

Uh

oh. She makes the trail maps.

She's a specialist. She's a specialist of making trail maps and travels all over the world making trail maps.

That's a good gig.

Yeah. So, I mean, just it was just an amazing uh amazing people.

Yeah.

Well, anyway, just a quick short diversion. I remember one of my fondest Bianca's smutshack uh memories. And then, okay, for for the rest of the world who doesn't know what Bianca's smutshack Well, do you want to give a brief description?

Um, it was it's basically like a a bed intent, you know, with lots of couches playing stag films and uh there were couches and beds and stuff around.

Free grilled cheese.

Free grilled cheese. That's right. That was the whole allure was to go there for Bianca's grilled cheese.

They must have had like three or four box trucks that just were filled full of couches.

Yeah. Yeah. It was It was a really nice place to just chill chill an evening and stuff.

Yeah. There's a lot of uh sexual activity going on, let's say.

Yeah. So anyway, so my story was I was walking around the outside of it with like my brother and a friend of mine and we see these two uh is it the WoW Persian County like you know sheriff's deputies, right? So there was this kind of like

like on the side was like all of um you know a bunch of tarps but there was kind of like a opening like a V an opening and you could just see like with arms folded these two guys you know and they're like they're they're green you know BLM or whatever wash out like office and they're just staring. They're staring intently. And so we kind of like sidle up and go like behind them and we're just kind like what's going on? We're trying to like look over the shoulder and you could totally see like a uh a guy going down on a woman, you know, just going to town, just going to town. And these two guy these two officers are just arms folded just standing there just like, you know, nodding just like watching like, "Yeah, yeah." And then we're just standing in like a minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes goes by and finally one of them kind of just like I think They notice that like some presence and then kind of slowly turns his head and he's just like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." And we're like, "Hey, what what?" And he's like, "Yeah, move along, move along. Nothing to see here. Move along. Nothing to see here." We're just like, "I think there's something to see here." You know, we're like, "Oh, okay, officer." It's I think, you know, they were embarrassing that we kind of were like watching with them, you know, but back in the day. And but anyway, so 97 your first year. So you go I find that amazing. You went like just you just flew to Reno, got a car, didn't know anybody, and just went by yourself.

Yep. And that was that's the only time I've gone by myself, actually.

And you didn't die.

And I didn't die. It was um Yeah, it was, you know, it was neat that that first year. What's really cool is I actually have a I took a lot of pictures, which I didn't do later years, but the first year I you know, I had a nice Nikon and I I took some really nice pictures and And um later after you know the Bernie man um event in Austin, my Bernie flip side um those friends I actually found them in my old pictures in 1997. I've got I've got pictures of a few of my good friends walking down to Playa and of course at the time I had no idea that they would be a part of my life or were or anything like that.

And so it's just that synchronicity is very strong at B me in.

Oh, it's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. So, after 97 when you went back, uh, like what were you thinking?

Yeah, that's it.

No, no. I It was opposite. I had had this I I started a party called Kiki Fest and I started it back in 1986 at Berkeley. I went to Santa Cruz. We had a big beach party and it was like a real California beach party, you know? I mean, barbecue,

volleyball, and tags. you know, it was a lot of fun. And um so then I had it in my house in uh my fest, you know, I had it in my I had a house that we were renting in in Berkeley. And so I got like a ton of sand. Literally a ton of sand and made like a brick barbecue for sautéing lamb and and uh built this. I mean, I went I went crazy. I got reed fencing and palm trees in my entire backyard like a luau and literally Oh, this this one girl said I was a oneman fraternity.

It was, you know, it was that was that skill. But, you know, it was just it was just me and a couple friends.

Um, so what had happened is I when I moved to Austin, I actually had parties in my backyard and I had, you know, I turned the roof into a fountain. I built a little lagoon by palm trees. I built paperier-mâché volcanoes which I had fireworks coming out of. Wow.

Um, and I call it that tiki fest, you know. And so what happened is my last year in 19 um I'm not exactly sure, but but um I'd outgrown my house. I had like 280 people in my little three-bedroom house. And so

so back to you know I had I had gone to these pagan events outside of Austin since 1991 and I knew land only owner really well. And so after I went to Burning Man, I was I called her up and I said, "Hey, I think I'd like to have my own event." And so that's when we started planning because then I had a venue. I had this campground.

I was like between 97 and 98 that you were starting all this.

Yeah. Yeah. So um so yeah, it was 97 and uh the first event was in 1998 and I called it Birdie Man at Texas because I didn't know what else to call it and we actually put like an ad in the paper in the Chronicle and some other places and you know tried to do a little hike. We had been meeting a group of us had been meeting um to Dog and Duck which was an old bar in Austin.

Okay. A couple times every a couple times a month and so it's pretty regular and that was where we started planning the first the first event.

So that was just like an organic like you just kind of like met Bernard. Well, how'd you meet?

Well, what I did how I No, I was smart. I There's a there's Eeyore's birthday party in Austin, which has been around for about 50 years, 52 years, and it's a big hippie fest. There's like big drum circles and beer and food, and you know, it's it's it's like all the hippies come out. It's awesome. So, I had some flyers I made. I mean, nothing fancy. just black and white, you know, print out.

Um, basically about the event and I went around like one person had a Statue of Liberty, but it was actually a Statue of Ears. So, Eeyors was a Statue of Liberty. I'm like, well, that's that's really cool. I mean, that would that'd be awesome for Bernie man, right? So, you know, um, so I gave them a flyer and I gave some other people and and then I ended up having about about 30 show up that weekend.

Wow. was actually like June 8th um because I think the campground was already booked for Labor Day for Memorial Day.

Okay.

So that's what's really amazing is at that same time Bern man was doubling in size my event was I mean you know the first year of flip side we went from 30 to 300 you know and then

that's an order of witness here. Yeah.

Yeah. An order of magnitude and then the next the next year went to like 600 within like five years. in a thousand.

Wow.

And and then we um and then we uh we outgrew the we outgrew the property and then

you know worked our way found down found the new property that we were at Black Creek. Um

so so between 97 and 98 so your first year on the playa you come back. I mean most people are thinking oh I'm going to make some new costume for next year or like maybe I won't go with but just by myself but maybe camp with like one or two other people like you're you're going to see starting like the very first like what would become a regional group you know like before that even existed

like wow okay so then when you went back in '98 like uh how did that go like

it was great so then I met I met I I think I put another ad in the paper in the chronicle looking for somebody to go with me to Burning Man and I got this one guy Clint um who later became a really good friend obviously and and act a roommate and will be my roommate in Colorado when I finally get out there. Um, and then a woman, uh, Jennifer, who was like a library science grad student or something. And so the three of us, I was going to take my beach party out to Burning Man. So, um, I I I I rented like a 16 foot trailer. I had a Jeep Wrangler. I filled the 16 foot trailer with everything to build a tiki hut at a bar at a bar. And um, you know, packed it pretty full. And then we drove out drove up to Birmingham and, you know, and it was it was it was it was quite an adventure. We ran out of gas like in the middle of Texas and had to call the sheriff to get her

Well, how about So, was it just you and Clint or did you go with

No, me, Clint, and Jennifer and my friend Jennifer.

Oh, okay.

And and you know, she's pretty radically tattooed and stuff and so she she very interesting character to have on. And um and so yeah, we got there and basically I built I built a papermâché volcano on site at Burning Man and um I had a generator. This is back when you could actually dig in playa and I

I dug a I dug a hole. I put my generator in it and then I put my volcano volcano over over the hole where the generator's in. So it was like a baffle. That was kind of cool.

Yeah, that's a great idea.

And then I put then I I got a smoker, so I constantly have smoke coming out the top.

Like a fog machine kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. But it was like mosqu smoke. And the funny thing about funny thing about that is I actually got pulled over in the adjet had a whole school bus up. That's a whole other story. Um is is that that was just the beginning. The 1998 I mean I I basically had an amazing unbelievable time. My I friends I had met who had lived in Arena had come back and met in Austin, came back, invited their friends. They were in they were in Reno and went and saw a band that was Hillbilly Surf Surfabery

and they were like they're like, "Oh my god, you got to go to Burning Man." You know, I mean, you need to literally come out and you need to find this camp and you need to do and and they showed up. So all of a sudden we ticulites and the big bar and everything. you know, all of a sudden this band shows up

and they're playing like bass and they're just playing stuff and now I've got like 500 people around. I mean, we're watching this performance and we're doing limbo and I mean it was just over the top.

Wow.

So, but that wasn't really over the top because the next year 1999 is when we had clubside and right memorial day. So, we had 300 friends all of a sudden whereas two years ago I had 30. Now I got 300. And they wanted to have a camp. And Larry Harvey actually I I was in I was in San Francisco on business and I was invited to a spark meeting, a spark party and that was we're in the early staff in the cacophony society and that whole thing. So I I got a flavor of that because I was actually invited and Larry Harvey, this is the first year of villages and Larry Harvey pulled me aside and personally asked me if I would bring a village to Burning Man that year.

This is between 98 and 999,

which is be 1999. Yeah.

Oh, okay.

And so, um um so like we're doing a village and so you know we I I so I'm like what I had gotten approved to have a bar in center camp which you know center having in center camp is the center of the city.

Yeah. Yeah. and and um I was this is some good stories. Um and so anyway, I had this idea. I had such a successful party that I decided the next year I bought a full school bus and I put about a three-foot rack on the top and a ladder and and I and that year I took 10,000 pounds of stuff. I weighed weighed it empty and weighed it full before we left.

Five tons

10,000 pounds of stuff. Yeah. Five tons of stuff to the buyer so we could do the village and I could do my thing my camp and um and that was kind of crazy. I have to say that was that was that I'm glad I had that energy back when I was 34.

Yeah. So that was Okay. So you had uh a big camp, you had a big event and it was center camp. You had a bar and everything like what did you say? How many people did you have? Was like 300 or Well, 300. You're right. In 1999 at Flip Side,

you know, but I mean like at your camp at Bernie band. I mean, it wasn't private 300 there.

No, no, no, no. That was when the when the band came belly band.

Okay. What was the name of your camp that was there?

Tiki Fest.

Oh, the Tik Test.

Oh, I think

Oh, so that's a funny that's a funny story because we arrived um we arrived the first day there was a total white out and it's we were next to first camp. And we had just driven. We were all drunk and we I had I driven out to Burning Man with

You just driven in your old trunk.

No, no, we had drove out like Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. The whole point of having a bus, you know. So,

um

Yeah. So, we It was So, that was pretty amazing. And then the next year, but it was interesting because I met my wife in 1999 at a pagan event

and she wanted Now, I met met her on my birthday which is June 18th and I was like playing I mean I bought a bus I was doing all this stuff and she really wanted to go to Burning Man with me but I was really worried because we didn't know each other that well that

yeah

you know it's uh yeah it can be harsh on your skin it can be harsh on your tent and especially harsh on on your relationships you know

yeah so I so I didn't want to risk it that year. So the next year I took the bus out and we she she drove out with me and that was then then she went so I basically went to Burning Man from 97 to 2004.

Okay.

And then in 2005 life life happened and 2006 we got married and other stuff.

Yeah. Let's see 999 2000.

So I took a break until 20

seven years right. Yeah.

Yeah. Seven years. Okay.

And um and then um

yeah cuz I mean that well you know that's quite frequently I found like seven years in a row. I mean uh I mean definitely I would put you in the category of like like a veteran you know.

I've had a total of 13 a total of 13.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm the same way. It's just like since 96 I've had 13. But you know it's it's like but It's 28 years. It's like, yeah, 13 times over 28 years, you know.

I mean, it's

cuz that's what I said like life life intervenes, you know. I mean, that's sometimes it's kind of hard to imagine when you're out there in the Black Reich desert and the playa and it's like, you know, the the whole rest of the world doesn't mean anything, you know, but it's like, hey, you know, I mean, people get married, people have kids, you know, and and then uh then it it comes back around again later, you know.

Yeah. Yes. And that's something I've learned with this. you know, helping form a community and an organization um is um I just totally lost our thought.

What I say like life kind of it you know takes your focus on then it kind of comes back around and you said like but the community

I know was so just regarding volunteering one thing I've learned is that don't take it personally. It's really hard not to take it person somebody steps back and says, "I don't want to do this anymore, or I don't want to go."

And I had some friends that had that and maybe had a toxic incident at the event.

You know, I a lot of times as

as a lot a lot of times as an LLC member, I would I wouldn't hear about I would well I would hear stuff during the event, but there would always be something that I would I would hear after the event and then you'd be like, "Why didn't you tell me during the event?" I can't It's much more difficult to go and rectify something.

Yeah.

You know, after and um

so that's something that's something I learned is is just you can't take that personally when volunteers

decide that they need a break.

Yeah. Well, also you have to remember like different people are kind of on their own different wavelength or on their own different path. You know, it's like it's like you might have started earlier and so now you know you're kind of you know like hey maybe I need to take a little break whereas like somebody it's like you know you show up at a party late and you're just like come on let's get this party started and it's like yeah I've been here for five hours. Thank you very much.

So, so at what point did uh the Burning Man project come to you and talk to you about the whole like regional network or re I mean I'm sure that like that was just a nent kind of thing. I mean like I can tell you well I'll tell you the story. So I was um again in San Francisco on business and um got to

this would have been uh 98 97 after my 97 bird.

Okay.

Right. So So 97 I go out by myself. I fly out and I go out by myself. 98 I I take my my my team cam, my tiki party. And then 2000 I'm in or 1999 I'm center camp which is pretty cool because I partied like 1999 in 1999.

You've done that.

And um yeah. And so uh anyway I was in Cal I was out there. I got in touch with Harley who um so a little bit more about that. I'm actually a lifetime member of Burning Man and

did you buy ticket?

Such a thing exists.

Was it okay what year was that

in 199 197?

I remember that. I remembered Larry on the soap box being like if you give us it 500 bucks or something.

500 bucks.

Oh, I remember that. I was like I wish I had $500 in cash.

Well, I got back I got back to Phoenix and I thought, you know, I got more out of Burning Man than any amount of therapy, you know what I mean? I mean, to $500 that is the value is so

so explain to the listeners. It's like in 1997 at the end like they were uh the Brady Band Project, this is the first year that there was like they formed their LLC and it was that's a whole big story about what happened in 1997. And so they had a big cash crunch and so they were asking for money and so they this was the one time they never did this ever again where they said if you give us $500 you get a a ticket to Burning Man for life. I think you you bought one of those. My my friend Curtis Curtis Coin he bought one of those. I think you're the only two people I know like I'm not sure how many people it's like 50 or 80 people.

No, it was actually 30. I know that for I know that I know that for a fact because so here's more to my story. Okay.

Um and so after 1997 I'm really excited and I'm out in California. So, I reached out to Harley. Um, I said, "Hey, I'm organizing this benefit for Burning Man at my house in Austin in October." It was like October 17th or something. Um, I'd like to get some swag so I can have it at the thing. And so, they sent me out a whole a whole box load of 1997 swag.

Wow.

And I had I had the videos of like the different news at news news, you know, what little coverage there was. I got they sent me the videos of that

and um so they were so like impressed. Um Harley said well let's you want to go out to dinner. So we went out to an Indian place and had dinner and she said well you know you and there's other people in Canada and some other people doing stuff. What do you think of joining a regional network of burns? I said yeah that's that sounds awesome. So there there was obviously activ at the same time, but I was doing it. I'm not the only person to come up with the idea of having um having a Burning Man event. But actually, I kind of was the first one to to hey, I'm going to bring this home to Texas and do that. Quuega was was later later that summer, I forget, maybe Labor Day. Um

right, was that

Yeah. And they also had a island. They had an active turned around 9798. Um, and so the the only so basically we just kind of coexisted with Burning Man. I u I at first I I gifted them some tickets but but then then they eventually would buy a block of tickets and so there'd be a few Burning Man staff members around and um we were still on that first property. Danger Ranger came.

Uhhuh.

That was pretty cool.

So So it's really cool. Well, because some people kind of narrated like, you know, there's there's this kind of f*** you attitude in Texas uh towards authority and towards the Burning Man or but really um actually we have a very good relationship and we have you know they've come to flip side and we go out and volunteer Burning Man and um you know so we have a really good and and and and that's the neat thing about the network is anywhere you go there are burners.

I mean it's amazing. I I was an briefly for a weekend trip. Oh, I got I've met some burners who invited to a to a birthday party with, you know, all the kinds of stuff. And just meeting burners is is like is awesome.

It's almost kind of like a not quite like a skull and bone secret society, but I mean it is I mean because for me like Brett Man's always been about like what I call the connection, you know? It's like like you go to the playa and like who you are and the rest of the world doesn't really mean anything, you know? It's like like you you your your your new name is now, you know, I wobbling crank, you know, like

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like it doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, and then like you and then you you go out into the rest of the world and then you meet somebody and it's I mean kind of like a fraternity or like a secret society where it's like, oh, you're a burner, I'm a burner. It's like, hey, come in my house, have a drink, stay in my house.

One one of my interesting stories was um you know, after after after around 2005 six or something I I could talk I could mention Burning Man and not be thought some totally crazy person at work you know you know and that it was very interesting to see that go from like I don't want anybody to know that I'm in the secret society that goes that far

to to hey yeah no you know all those billionaires Google and

well now

Silicon Valley they're yeah they're you know

that's that's where they were their playground was

it is

and um yeah but I mean and and and I think one of the questions I know you you're interested in is how it changed my life when it's just totally with amazing relationships um and you know and the fact that you know I can go pretty much anywhere in the world and there are burners I can connect with it and and I I'm very excited about some sustainability stuff that bring involved with um to fly ranch and um and all that. And so, you know, it's it's it's nice. It was hard to it was hard to step back after being the very first regional contact to finally give it up. But when I moved when I moved uh with my, you know, health issues, then it didn't make sense.

Like meet someone, you make a connection. It's like, "Oh, you're a burner. I'm a burner."

Yeah. And and then it was neat because uh one of the other things we did you know, recently, well, it's been five or six years now, but uh I started San Antonio burn San Antonio burners.

Okay.

There's a large community of burners in Austin because eventually got to 2,000 people every year. And um yeah, there's not that many in San Antonio, but we found a campground kind of like I did before. And we we had an event, we enjoy it, had a little, you know, had effigy and some art. We tried to do as much well we could and We that's continues to go on. We've changed lanes now, but I I missed that the last one. Um but um what was neat is even that San Antonio commute that was pretty small, maybe 20 people. I have, you know, one burner had been to burning Korea. She was in Korea, stationed in Korea, and that's when she became a burn. And um then another one been Africa burn. Uh and it was really neat seeing a broadcast from Africa burn that actually recognizing pe actually recognizing people friends there at the event half halfway around the world. I mean it's um it's really neat.

Yeah. So how do you think uh I mean what do you think the impact of Burning Man has been on your life? Like how does it how has it changed you? Like if you had never gone to Burning Man, it was like would would everything still be the same?

No, not at all. Um I had you know I had a a friend who um San Antonio burner friend and she's basically told me, you know, before Burning Man, I was a total b****.

You know, I was a real jerk. And it just really changed and

Yeah. And it changed my thing. And and you know, and and she was she was very outgoing and and you know, you know, her attitude had changed and and um and I think it because now I I see it. I mean, I've got I've got uh friends who their kids have grown up going to Flip Side in Austin and they still go out every year and it was neat because this last year one of my good friends brought his son for the first time uh to Flip Side and and and so it's neat to see that generational um you know and and realizing that you're part of this a larger community and and have and then the neat thing is when when we do have setbacks, people are in trouble, everybody rallies to help them out. Oh yeah. Um yeah,

you know, it's it's it's a it's a really strong community and

it's really interesting to you know to think that like cuz I think on the the first time that I went I think I was what like 26 or something. I mean you're probably

fairly young too, right?

Well, I was I was I Well, yeah, I would have been like 32 or something.

Yeah. But yeah, you know, now fast forward like uh 20 30 some odd years later, you know, it's like ah, you know, not not so young anymore. It's like yeah, trailing the wei ones. We had kids, you know. I mean, like life moves on, you know, but uh

but yeah, but I know just kind of the focus of this this show, you know, just talking about like just like how Bernie man has like changed people,

you know, and uh and just kind of like what it means to you like and

so one thing that I think is very important is volunteering doesn't not only makes you part of the community, but there's a lot of personal development that can come. So I have to think about our daft our effiges. We have a we have a history of making spectacularly complex interesting wooden effiges and we have a warehouse

in Austin where we build them and and that sustained through through our ticket money all year round. We have a we have our own clubhouse if you will

which really that was a really key element in building community in Austin was actually having a dedicated space

and but what's neat is, you know, you can go and volunteer on DAP, have no experience with a hammer and an L and learn how to build complex carpentry and there are so many people where they might and it just, you know, they might have a waitress job or something like that, but at Flip Side, they're running a whole department of like 20 volunteers or or or more. And and so you kind of see that that the organiza, you know, the the community there's opportunities for world. And it's neat. One of my favorite stories is one of my first LLC friends, you know, on the on the li legal liability corporation that that managed flip side. Um, he decided he wanted to be kind of in charge of the fire, you know, at the G fire and all that. Okay.

And so he learned about fire safety, he did all that.

He ended up volunteering for a volunteer fire department. Then he actually moved to just one out near Houston, which is very prestige, and he's like like the head fireman, and he's, you know, he's like, "George, this you've totally changed my life, you know, he used to work in at Dell Financial Services in the cubicle. Um, I was actually working with at Dell at the same time." And um yeah, now so that wouldn't happen.

Now I was a fireman.

Hadn't ever met me or gone to flip side.

Wow.

Or been involved or had been involved in, you know, in this and found that he had an interest, you know, or skill.

So, I think that's a neat thing.

Yeah. So, so that broaden his horizons show like, oh yeah, there's other things that maybe I could do this and

Exactly. I think it opens people up to more possibilities.

Yeah. I mean, also other part of it is kind of like I don't know if it's like like a fraternity or like a boot camp, you know, it's just kind of a uh communal kind of struggle. You you know, it's like you're going out. I mean, especially like the Black Rock Desert, you're going to this place that can kill you. you know, and it's uncomfortable or at least it used to be that nowadays maybe a little different, you know, but uh I mean still I mean it's it it's uncomfortable and look at look what happened last year with all like the the water rain and everything but it's and that that's a perfect example. It's it's like even with today's modern creature comforts you know it's like that deluge opens up and it rains for days and it's like and then so you know what happens people come together you know I mean if you look at the media it's like all doom and gloom. Oh my god, Chris Rock and Diplo. Oh, you know, it's like they said people are stuck out there and it's just like the the reality is like no, people kind of came together. It's like, oh, the power went out. The, you know, the refrigeration kind of ended. It's like, well, now we have to cook all this food. Hey, we're having a big banquet. Everyone kind of everyone pull up a plate and the, you know,

Yeah.

the fork and a knife.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so how about for you? So, now this is like many years later and I take it you've retired from the the active like regional contact role and

right

and uh like organizing flip side and uh

I don't know

a burn y

yeah

yeah I stepped back you know I became disabled a couple years ago and I'm still dealing with that and I'm typically in a wheelchair walker

um

are you still working like retired

no I'm on I'm on disability now So, I'm retired

and um yeah, fortunately, fortunately, I did pretty well when I was at USAA and

you know, I'm doing okay. So, um but now I'm already thinking about like, wow, you know, how do I get to Burning Man? I'm looking at buying a all-wheel drive vehicle that can tow at least a tear rock trailer and you know, and then I'll go to the disability camp where evidently they, you know, they can power up your wheelchair and stuff like that. And so, you know, I'm looking forward to going back. back. Not this year, maybe next or the year after, but you go back and

do it. It, you know, it would be nice. I've even thought about just renting an RV,

even though it's expensive.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's a lot hotter nowadays, you know, but

Exactly.

Yeah. At least that's what I've been told.

But, uh, I mean, do you still have

I mean, you must still have like friends who are going there, right? Or is it Oh, yeah. That's I'm sure is that same camp that you started in '98 still going or uh

No, no. Oh, I I stopped that around around 20 well 2005. My bus died. That was kind of the end of it.

Yeah. I blew the engine on a school bus. Remember I told you I took 10,000 pounds? Yeah. That was on the way back. That was good.

On the way back. On the way, this is another story. Coming back from Burning Man, we went to Van Horn, Texas. Know Paso Paso and maybe 20 miles, 30 miles outside the city. And all of a sudden the engine like stops huge smoke and it comes out and get out and the rod has shot through the engine

and all the oil you all the eight gallons of oil were on the pavement

and it was just like oh my god what are we going to do? We ended eventually two hours later got a tow truck that we could barely fit in tow us to Odessa. You know, Desa is like an oil town and it's it's not it's not the safest place.

Yeah.

And they put it in a salvage yard

with and I had like DJ equipment. I had th

probably $10,000 in and stuff

on the bus. And so I basically had to organize, hey guys, I need people to help me go back up to Adessa and drive down and drive the bus down uh before everything is stolen

because we got it. rentals we need to get back and all that. So, so I was able to get some some friends to do that and we got it there. I had a fundraiser and and got enough money to get a new engine.

So, that that was good until I blew it up 2006.

So, it might be the end of the road for that bus, but like how about for you, you know? I mean, like you said, you might possibly head back to the Playa Black Rockck City one or two more or however many more times, but flip side still go.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn't go this last year. I just couldn't pull it off. But the year before I went

and and rented a van, a custom van, and that worked out really well.

Um, it was a big push though u because I was still pretty disabled.

Um, and I'm doing better now and I hope is over time I'll be get more and more functionality. But, um, yeah, I basically was in the hospital for a year and so I lost all my strength and so I couldn't walk. Well, he's got to keep at it. Within a few years, he'll be at the Thunderdome, you know. Uh,

exactly. With a with a prosthetic probably.

Well, and I'm interesting to see uh No, I really do want to go out go out to the fly again. It's definitely in my in my planning, but it made

But it's different than like, you know, the first couple years, you like the honeymoon phase, like the first three or or seven years or so, where

so many people are just like, I'm going to do this like every year for the rest of my life, you know. And then, you know, like I said, like time goes by and you get married and you have a kid and you move and you have a job and you like life like life like life like life like life like life like life like life like life like life like life like intervenes, but uh I don't know. It's like I I think it's it's kind of like a like a magnetar, you know? It just it kind of holds you back.

Yeah.

I mean, it might not be like, okay, now that I've been gone for 13 years, now I shall go every single year for the next 13 years. Like, no, you know, let's just try one Yeah. One thing that that inspired me from Burning Man in my life is um is looking at the future, thinking about the future.

Okay.

And it got to the point where I actually had Burning Man friends. Somebody knew somebody who had gone to a future study program in Houston.

So I knew this thing and so I looked into it and I got USAA to pay for me to get a master's degree in in foresight, which is futurism. So So, not not like some metaphysical like see into the future like like like planning like

yeah professional I'm a I'm a professional a professional uh

fortune teller

futurist

and and it's neat it's neat because you know you see a lot of technology and stuff gets tested on the fly

Oh yeah yeah yeah I remember seeing drone swarms in like the late 90s you know be like what the hell is that you know like yeah All right. Well, um, let's see. Anything? Uh, I mean, it seems like like Burning Man has definitely had like a major influence in in your life.

Absolutely.

Changed everything.

And it's still

still working its magic on you.

Yep.

Yeah.

I still drink the Kool-Aid.

Maybe a little less sugar nowadays, but uh, still drink the Kool-Aid.

All right. Well, thanks for for talking. This is It's been an amazing story. Uh, do you have any plugs? Anything? Anything you want to point people to? You have like a personal like website or

Oh, well, no, my Twitter account is Pikachu.

Okay,

that's my Twitter. And yeah, there you go.

So, if people want to get in touch with you.

All right.

Well, thank you so much for this is my my very first like inaugural interview for Shadow of the Man. And uh I don't know. I mean, and hopefully I'll see you on the fly. Maybe one of these years or

Absolutely. I'll see you in Hawaii.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anytime.

I love it.

All right.

All right. You have a great week.

Okay. Well, thank you and we'll talk to you later.

Okay. Bye-bye.

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