EP 6 Nati Goldman

Today's guest is Nati Goldman, an influential figure in the Israeli Burning Man community and a founder of Midburn. The conversation explores Goldman’s personal evolution from a seeker of "party culture" to a philosophical advocate for the ten principles, specifically emphasizing how radical inclusion requires a difficult, conscious shift from egoism to altruism. Goldman recounts the organizational challenges of establishing a regional event in Israel, including a high-stakes legal and personal confrontation with local police to protect the community’s autonomy. Ultimately, the source reflects on the fragility of countercultural movements in the wake of the October 7th crisis, questioning how to sustain a "state of mind" centered on allowing others to exist during times of profound societal trauma.

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the shadow of the men. I'm your host, Andy. Yeah, that Andy. Today our guest is the one and only Nati Goldman. Hi Nati. How are you?

I am doing great. How are you?

Yeah. So, okay. I know you've been a burner for since like the early 2000s. Yes. Uh you're one of the original founders of of Midburn. Is is that correct? And

first time in Burning Man was 2006.

2006.

And actually we founded Midburn at 20 We start uh being active in 2011, but we did we found a nonprofit organization and did the first event nonprofit was 2012.

Mhm.

And 2012 and first event was 2014.

And you've been a regional contact bring regional contact uh like since when?

Yeah, we are uh we are used to before for at the beginning.

Mhm.

Original contact in Israel. One of them quit like two years ago and uh we remained three and actually after October 7th uh crisis of October 7 we actually got upset and we resigned.

Meta regional and two RC's Israel. The third one picked up the last second.

Mhm.

And the resign wasn't accepted by the organization. Uh but the other two uh got totally disconnected and I continue uh the contact and uh

Okay.

Well, we could

Yeah, we could talk some more about that like afterwards, but uh yeah, just to to start with, I'd like to know like what what's your your life like before Burning man. Like what's uh I know I I mean I know you have a a long story. You don't have to take us down every path, you know, but uh yeah. Where do you come from? Where were you born? You know, what's your life? What was your life like before Burning Man? What led you to Burning Man?

I was born in uh in Israel 1956, October 1956. I had my birthday my birthday actually was last week.

Oh yeah, that's right. Happy birthday.

I knew you. I knew you. not going to wish me a happy birthday of my day.

I only saw about it a couple days later.

I know you're focusing on yourself. It's okay. Also,

but anyway, um I did a relocation to Los Angeles in 19, this was actually 1997 after theation of Prime Minister Rob in Israel. I decided to take off that I cannot take this uh this uh way of and they would stop in Israel and

and during this time I have friends in LA that all the time every year they're going to binge come with us come with us and and it's never it's never the right time always you have something else to do or something very important to do uh But in 2006 I decided to make my first trip to Burning Man. Um I believe as everybody else the first time didn't mean anything to me. For me it was to come to a big party and enjoy as much as I can. I wasn't related to the culture you know that even know I didn't even know much about his culture. I didn't pay attention to it. What about the people you camped with?

Huh?

What about the people you camped with?

Um,

I mean, did they help you with the acculturation or were they going for the first time too?

No, no, no, no, no, no. We came like we've been uh lodging as a camp over there kind of a free It's a free camp, but uh few RVs together with a with a nice center area, but it's about um understanding this all party experience of it. You know, the beauty of it, not not the culture of it, the the wow that you're coming in there or or the engagement you have being in what does it mean? So I came out there with some interesting uh feel and I saw some major difference for me as an Israeli that uh coming from different culture they're very far from American cultures and European cultures very you know Israeli men's my time I believe it's it's rolling maybe in a better way but it's a very very powerful uh approach it's it's about maturism you know it's it's very very different

I actually start my self-improvement in uh 1987 when I came first to study in in New York. I had a time that everything you know the coin came down and I decided that I need to do some improvement. So I took it for some time before I came to Bingman. But one of the biggest impact that I felt right away is that the ego the ego it does not exist over there.

Oh yeah, you know. Everybody's you know maybe now when I'm looking backward maybe this is a positive radical inclusion everybody's the same level everybody's starting to this was very impressive for me so I came back um I think this is the the best impact I have from this my first engagement with Perry 2007 I came again and actually I start to understand and look for this culture to understand what is this culture what does this all think about that one to learn where I am, you know, where I am, where did I go, where I've been. And from there, actually, I think I connected to this uh project of Burning Man and getting into the culture, understanding the impact it's supposed to uh give the world or the the regions in the world to understand how can we uh bridge cultures and and differences. But and since then, you know, that's it. 2011 2011 I'm getting a phone call from friends oh you know they're organizing now there is a burning man event a burn event small group trying to make a party blah blah blah blah blah so wow

in Israel

wow this is great blah blah blah and a week before it happening I'm getting a message it was canled okay it was canled but I got very upset uh and I tried to investigate where's the group.

Uhhuh.

Where are they? Then I got in contact with them and um I actually uh expressed my uh disappointed of this type of organization and how come that I cannot actually stand behind this whole thing. And two or three people from this group came out afterwards and said let's go and do it again and different because

do the right way.

They had a leader over there that it was very difficult to deal with and they came out of the group and they say nati we actually going to come together and let's do something else and forget this uh uh tension of these people to do something and this is the way it start actually.

Oh okay.

And few uh guys that came back from burning the same here was very into it also and for some reason and they was in the group also they were over there and for somehow we became like the first meeting of a group of about eight people in somebody of the group uh backyard whatever and said that's it nice to meet you nice to meet I don't I know nobody everybody is very young ages between let's say 20 and 30 and all of a sudden the old man is coming over. The old man is coming over there.

That time I

I know how that feels.

52 I remember I think. So I'm not so sure but about

okay

maybe 55 whatever. And um yeah let's go let's zoom let's do and um because of my capabilities and experience experience and maybe financial situation better than other of these young kids that got released from the army whatever still looking for their life. Um I was very dominant over there. We did a small event in 2011 participating around we couldn't count it but between three to 400 people everybody actually spread book

that's that's so small three 400.

Don't worry about that I'm going to build the first man. This is my project. And I start to design the man, cut in a laser, go to my carpenter, said, "Okay, you do this, this, this, this." And when the first man 3 m high, like 10 foot high and went an event, nice event on the beach.

Well, three 400 people, that's not so small.

That's that's that's pretty big for a small first gathering. you know burners is actually want very much to this thing to happen everybody posting something on the on the Facebook and everybody 10 friends or 20 friends 100 friends and this is the way it's like you know it's like a pyramid you know

yeah yeah

surprise so many people came it was very very nice and fun and at the same year this was in April and the same year in October we already made another on event before the official event. We had 1,600 people there. Can you believe it?

Wow.

And this was crazy.

Well, it's a lot of burners in Israel, huh? Cuz I mean, I've known I've been going to Ben since 96 and I think I' I I probably have met Israelis there every single year.

I mean, just is running across people.

You don't know. You know, I don't know what does mean burners. I don't know who's a burner actually. Well, that's kind of a hot topic, you know. Um I but I think originally burner was like somebody who' been to Burning Man, right? Uh and then nowadays you could say like or someone who's been to like a Burning Man regional event or someone who's like part of the community of like a Burning Man regional. I mean there's also a question of um uh the virtual reality. What was it? What's it forget now? Athena Deos in LA. She has the she's doing the what's it called again? Anyway, it's kind of like the the VR like Burning Man VR kind of thing. And so that's another question. It's like people who only go in virtual reality but have never been to a regional event, have never been to Burning Man, could you could you consider them a burner? Like what what makes a a burner? So So everyone actually participate Burning Man Nevada City you think is a burner? That's what I think traditionally people kind of thought.

What about what about those old I don't know hundreds of thousand people around the world in the old regionals that never been in Burning Man or not.

Well, no, that's that's what I I I think they're burners personally. Yeah.

So, he's a burnout.

A burner. I think anyone has been to to Burning Man or any Burning Man like regional event. So, I mean there could be people in Israel who've never been to Nevada, never been to the Black Rock Desert, but they've been to Midburn, like they're a burner. That's what I would say and I think that's probably what a lot of people would say. So, okay, I cannot look the percentage of people who actually doesn't understand or doesn't care about the culture of

bands. Even let's start with Black Rock City, the percentage is actually growing all the time.

Oh, yeah.

The connection with culture is is actually very very losing up. So, those People are coming to P over there and they care less about L&T and their inclusion and they care less about their principles. They are a burners I guess technically. Yeah.

So actually everybody is a burner

pretty much. Yeah.

So nothing does nothing has to do with the event itself because I don't have to be in the event and I can be actually one who actually care for the temporary those only the one who care less about the principles without being there at all. So

well I think if you're not there and you and you don't care about the 10 principles then maybe it wouldn't be a burn but I mean I think

it's a tough question actually you cannot you cannot um I I tried as I told you before in one of our conversation in the past

since 200 until 2017 I was very active uh in Midburn community, the production uh the chairman of the of the nonprofit uh runs a lot of uh departments bring the rangers into Israel and order whatever I did so much and so I build all the time

and this is the 2017

as I'm getting elder and stuff like this I'm backing up and decided to focus on the philosophy of uh Burning Man and uh okay I've been reading a lot of uh of Larry uh writing and some other philosophers in the group over there trying to understand translating things to Hebrew uh putting my impact in there and putting there and just um uploading on our community uh media and and I'm dealing with for a long time and let's say

2017 like seven years you know

and one of my essay I remember I tried I I promise you to send you uh stuff that I post on Facebook but uh or to the community.

Oh yeah

translate this to English maybe after this conversation I will translate

Sure.

I wrote something that has to do who is a burner actually.

Ah okay.

Yeah. Who is a burner? And um it's happened to me that it's actually nothing has to do with the 10 principles at all. Means that look Berners um coming into stage long time before the 10 principles reappeared long time before Lar Harvey wrote the the the 10 principles.

Mhm.

It's a to be actually it's a it's a mindset. state of mind which um basically I give you in two words but burners are the representative of the allowing allowing word means that burners supposed to allow other people uh to be where they want to be and to support it. Uh

okay so we are represented of these uh allowable words uh because otherwise we representing the different world basically now it's very interesting so what does it make to allow other people to be where they're supposed to be and how we can support it so if you look at the 10 principles this is exactly it radical inclusions to allow other people to come now I can go through So I can go over the or this but and this is something very important. This maybe I don't know if you're going to be able to talk about it today but this is actually the main thing.

Yeah. Talk about whatever you want. Yeah.

Look from the first day actually when we start to run this uh community in Israel and dealing with the 10 principles and trying to um spread had 10 principles and the meaning of the 10 principles and why do we have 10 principles or whatever it is we do and we did actually forget what was the purpose of this project that principles it's it's a it's it's basically it's a model that actually helps communities to get together

yeah

and and and and maybe to reach this place that will actually because the transformation you're looking for but the purpose the big purpose if you don't understand it that principle doesn't have any meaning nothing nada and the main main thing is basically it started because we're trying to impact communities in the world uh uh in a different vision for a better uh for a better life or better uh approach of situation and dilemas and stuff the the project is actually to make better world for our generation and next generation and stuff like this. If you for if you don't understand this is the the the the target or this is what you're aiming for, you're losing the whole thing. Now why I'm saying it now look at the 10 principles. The 10 principles doesn't give you any rights for anything. You came to smoke over here. You can say how can you room just for yesterday.

Hi,

we're meeting at the meeting at the bathroom.

Yeah,

for different reasons. But anyway, and this is very important, Andrew. Look, the 10 principle doesn't give anybody any rights means that and you hear all the time, hey, you didn't take me to the camp. What about radical inclusion? Hey, they prevent me of of presenting my radical express. doesn't run this way. It works the other way around. If you are surrounded in a community group of people that allowing you to feel that you are in radical inclusion, you are included means that

yeah

we all the time have to see the others and we are the others. We I will see you and you're going to see me. I cannot take any liberty for any of this principle to myself radical self reliance I can be in a radical self-reliance if I'm not in surrounded with people actually allowing me to be there our nature is actually to put people down all the time I will give you a space to express your radical reliance self-reliance then there all principles It's about others. Radical inclusion. I not I don't take it for myself. Somebody will give it to me because I'm part of the others. I will let others to be in radical inclusion. I will let somebody to be in radical self-expression. If I don't, you cannot radical self expression of self. I think like the main one I could think of was maybe perhaps a gifting because that is entirely You know it's

amazing tool we're not using it at all.

This is exactly look at see the others. This is exactly it.

L&T is the same. We supposed to clean everything for others to come. Everything is about others. We supposed to see others. We living in a very egoistic world.

See I don't look at so much as others asism to altruism.

The movement Mhm.

From egoism to altruism is basically change of state of mind. The change of state of mind start with the 10 principle. Sent principle is awareness. The moment you aware of the project and the 10 principle you can this transformation everybody is talking about you can do change of your state of mind and this is this is actually the process. We're not aware of it. Nobody care about it. Everybody different angles of it also. You know, people take the 10 principles and everybody have a different meanings to it. Everybody and you know what, Andrew to to to really h leave in 10 principles most of the time you need to get out of your comfort zone doesn't like to go.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

The moment you're willing to to actually participate this world project of making different societies in the world. You need to get out of your project. If not, get out of the project.

Mhm.

This was short. I say do some stuff.

Oh, yeah. No, I'd love to read it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, you went pretty much like every single year. You said you lived in uh Los Angeles and then

actually I've been going 2006, 2007, 2008.

Uhhuh.

Then you went back to Israel.

Oh, okay.

And there in 200 11 uh we started to found this uh uh midburn and but since then uh I was so look for me it's a life project. Midburn was a life project.

Mhm.

Uh I felt that I can contribute so much. I got a lot of feedback from community members, people that want just to listen more. They want to come and build with me. And this I was very very dominant in the in the the community and it's a life project for me actually till today

I I I backed I backed up a little bit then I took a step back after what's happened in last year I was supposed to build a the temple to a year ago I promised to send you the the picture

yeah yeah

when I'm going to be done with you I'll send you a lot of stuff

sure

and since then Everything was so shaky and actually everybody got into their world because of what's happening around. Nobody could actually spread any spare energy around for other stuff. Most people went to serve the army the reserve army and some families lost their uh the dear people around and terrible. I didn't write Facebook till about a week ago and

really

and I am a I'm a writer at least two posts a week in the community because there's a lot of subjects coming up and I'm trying to prevent this wow everything is going out of everything is not doesn't belong you know trying all the time to keep this thing

on track but for one year I said I need to pick up I was kind of disappoint also from the from the from the committee actually that leading okay I'm against leading without leading any community but actually they were leading the the the nonprofit and the way they organizing the event and how do they cut corners and how do they actually run over principles we don't care much so since I got so upset said you know what It's not yours anymore. Let them It used to be your baby. Let them work it out.

Um this after I understood that also this event as is uh have the rights to exist.

Okay.

And if you're not happy and I and I see all those, you know, all the veterans of the this project the beginning of 2011 we start everybody backed up. They're not coming to the events anymore. So kept to a point that I'm I, you know, I left along over there. I said, "Okay, back up. Let them run it. It's okay. Still, they have the rights to exist. Even it's not the burn you wish to see. If you don't like it, go and build another group." And uh this people did. They moved aside. And now they have a lot of problems over there. But I hope they're going to get over it.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's been a hard last year, you know, and um I mean

the default is very very uh it's very easy to uh to all of a sudden to slide on this uh creek of the default you know slider. It's very

well you're walking all the time around the default up and then you glitch down.

Yeah. I don't know. I I think there's a reason why Birdie Man originally they went out to the Black Rockck Desert. You know you go to I guess you know some the most remotest place is I mean that the 10 principles work, you know, when you're kind of have like a blank canvas like that, right? You know, it's it's kind of hard, you know, when there's you're in the middle of a city and there distractions and stuff, you know, it's like or like decommodification. It's like, you know, you have to make rent, you have to buy food, you have to live, you know. Uh

yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

But um

it's very interesting. Um we spoke about last time also a little bit But um it's very difficult to keep the critical mass that can can inspire uh event participate. And as long as the critical mass is getting smaller, the the outcome of this project actually change colors and uh

whatever you want to call it uh but it's it's never the same. It's all the time the default group that actually coming and can and not connected to this have a lot of impact on the event. Um and there's nothing that has to do with the culture and the critical mass cannot inspire people. You cannot educate people. You can inspire people to to to to be to be different to do different but the smaller the group it is the less uh uh inspiration you have and you're losing it. This is what it is.

The relation between the culture and the fun experience is changing and uh we see it everywhere. We see it in Bingman. We see it in Midburn. We see it actually everywhere.

Mhm.

Because so I aris wrote about some about something interesting and uh we not pay too much attention to it. The growth of the communities It's in relation but direct relation and critical relation to the power you have to escort people who coming to the new events. What's the what's the what's the the the the culture information writing pictures whatever it is you're providing exposing those people to how you do uh make them kind of ready to understand where they're coming. How much they're motivated to hug this culture and not only to come and to yeah let's take another heat and let's get high and wow beautiful music it's not enough but we did a lot of mistakes also in we grow up very very quick

well it's a learning opportunity understand we didn't understand how is important Bernman today are suggesting not to u include more than 40% of virgins and there is a reason for it and not only that is condition to the fact that every camp will uh host those virgin take them into the camps and somebody in the camps will actually go with them and talk culture and walk around with them and actually give them a better introduction to what it is.

Yeah.

The idea that only 10 or 20% of those people will catch it. You cannot get all these 40% virtues. We didn't we wasn't we never was aware of it. We didn't do much about it. Um, and we're going back to this uh getting out of your comfort zone. Camps became a community that are very connected and let's have fun together. They care less about a project outside the camp. There is a project outside the camp. In order for you to take an a virgin with your hand by hand, hand and given the right introduction, you need to work for it. You need to put some effort into it. You need to give up some of the stuff and people not people not willing to do that to do so because we're not connected to the to to the mission of this project. We're connected to the event.

Yeah. I mean, how much

very high?

Yeah. I mean, and how much do like you seek to get new like merchants to collaborate and to come in and you know, give them like delegate, you know, give them like, okay, you're coming in here like the best way to learn is to, you know, is to pitch in and then and help out and and you know,

you know, also Burning Man the rule 2080, you know the rule 2080 20% holding 80% of the market. It's a it's a it's a rule actually that that describe uh the powerful of uh big companies and how they holding of the 20% of the industrial can carry only 20% can carry the all 80% of the market. Burning man is the same by the way also Burning Man only 20% of the participant are building this city everywhere also in Midburn we can see it all the time there's a group of 20% they're putting their all efforts to make it happen H yeah it's just from my experience sometimes I don't know 20% even seems kind of high 70,000 70,000 people black rock city% 14,000

something like that yeah

it's a huge number

yeah

it's a huge number the organization itself holding 6,000 volunteers

well yeah I mean it's probably the artists the theme camps you know like all the different Yeah. Yeah, it's massive. Well, you know, I think it's just like I mean, you know, we come from a similar experience. It would be like regional contacts like, you know, running events. Um, there's there's there's certain number certain kinds of people, you know, like you're saying like the 8020.

I forgot my beer in the kitchen.

Oh, okay. That's okay. This is audio. It's not video. So,

you're going to have a nice recording with me.

Yeah. But anyway, there's I mean 20% maybe. even less than 20%. You know, people who actually like to actually work the party, you know. I mean, I think we're the same way. It's just like I

I don't know. I I enjoy myself. It's like when when other people are enjoying themselves and like having a good time and just like things that come up, you know,

in Hawaii.

Well, I'm not really active in the Hawaii community anymore. I retired like over like 12, 13 years ago, but uh I've been helping the community to to regrow because things kind of atrophied and kind of fell apart. But, uh, I don't know. There's there's things going on now. Uh, but anyway, that's why I keep saying the show is not about me, it's about you.

But, uh, yeah. So, anyway, I want to ask you like, so going with the whole theme of the show, like what is your shadow of the man like? So, how is Bernie man affected you? Like, so what's its shadow upon your life? I mean, you said you first heard about it in what 97, didn't go till 200 X you know and then I did it

I'll tell you the story it's very interesting because I was dealing with that and trying to understand myself

first of all I can tell you that I've been going through an amazing transformation the exposure to this project the first few years with the young burners was an experience by itself as an elder person in a group of young people that actually Finally they get get rid of their parents and people saying to them what to do all of a sudden I came over there was very difficult for them.

No it was very

we are project manager I mean yeah you got these kids slowly slowly I've learned um restrain you know let them do mistakes let them learn their way you cannot teach anybody and do shortcut for any learning you can inspire but No, it's not not more than that.

And uh for the for me it was a very amazing experience and I went through amazing transformation with this young generation. I love it. Then the more uh I got deep into this philosophy and stuff and understand the wisdom of this culture. I think that Larry was a genius. But maybe it's the way I I translate this philosophy to those levels that are very, you know, fascinating influenced me a lot. Mainly mainly radical inclusion. Uh since uh uh this is actually the most the most difficult difficult uh principle to to um practice. I said, "You know what? You have to you have to work on it and this is what you're going to do." So identify identifying all those people around me that actually so annoying and every time they they make me upset and they're so different. I cannot stand them.

I took it I took it this also uh around my friends and family and wife whatever it is. I understood that I didn't come to this world to to change anybody, I came to change myself. So every time I felt that I have difficulty with somebody, I understood that something wrong with this person is something me that I need to actually practice uh and train myself to deal with these difficult people. You're not going to change them. They're never going to be like you and the better don't be like you. Just learn how to live with these people. Radical inclusion, it's an amazing difficult uh uh principle takes a lot of efforts and many occasions of getting out of your comfort zone and I have to be there.

But also I have to imagine radical inclusion is it hits a little bit differently in your part of the world, you know? I mean for in the United States, I mean including Mexicans or or Canadians, you know, it's like that's not that bad, you know, but uh Israel is in a a tough neighborhood and I mean I can imagine out of like many of the principles especially the history of last year, you know, it's uh but uh as I understood like Nova and and Midburn were always like radical radical inclusion was always like a major major part of of their day.

People using this uh you know to be honest with you I think if I trying to you know okay no I don't know thousands of people actually I couldn't remember anymore you know without a few hundreds that I could remember some of them but now it's became a very big number but I can tell you there's not many people I can count them here in my 10 fingers that really practice practicing inclusion radically. No, no, no, no, no, no. Very difficult. European culture people are growing up differently. Maybe it's even nature today. Maybe probably also up to a certain point. But for Israel is very very difficult. Everybody is smarter than the other and if you're different you cannot be included. In America there is also something like this. If you don't have money or you're beautiful you cannot be included also in the American culture. Um you can see it in different societies uh big time and there's no right closure. Uh the the video that actually was a very big impact on me on radical inclusion. Um I don't remember the name of it but it's it's in a great great uh uh video somebody did telling about somebody came to Birmingham and he's telling his story about but the end of the story is that also in my understanding of this all philosoph philosophical understanding to understand was radical inclusion I'm telling the people all the time you don't have to love anybody you don't have to like any body. But just remember everyone have some something very very unique. Everybody in the world billions of people everyone in each of us have something unique. It doesn't look like others. I'm telling you billions of unique uniqueness in pieces of people and you never know if this person held this unique that you like very much and therefore Let those people actually peep into your world. Maybe you like these people.

Yeah.

I don't know what's unique about you, but you do have something unique. I'm sure. And if I and if I will uh uh spend with you some time in Burning Man or whatever, we're going to go through some experience. I'm probably going to reveal what is that.

Oh yeah. Yeah. We all have our unique

Everybody. Everybody.

Mhm. Yeah, that's true.

So, um yeah. Uh let's see. Where should we go now? Do you want to talk about uh Midburn's journey in this past 12 months and where where does it go from here? Cuz I know cuz Midburn was supposed to happen what early November or something and then what didn't happen was cancelled. Um didn't they had something this summer a at

Yeah, they have something in team. Yeah. Trying to uh push an event for 3,000 people. Very was midsummer, very hot place. Um a lot of a lot of people actually didn't believe that this event is the right one.

Yeah.

Maybe because the difficulties I don't think because of the the energy and the mood around We all understand that it is important the community to continue uh doing events and to continue uh exploring arts and hug each other and care for each other and support uh community members after this old tragedy and stuff. So it was an event.

Then there was the Nova Heaven right at at Bernie.

Nova Heaven was Did you go there?

Well, I was a shift lead. I remember we talked about that. Like I was

I remember I remember I missed you there.

Yeah, I know. We probably were both there Saturday morning, but uh

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh they had an amazing amazing installation over there. Wow.

So for the listeners listening to the show, the uh Nova Heaven was an installation where um uh artists came together like burners, some of the Nova producers, right? They came together and they they they reconstructed I think they it wasn't the same tent. It was like a replica

of the same design. I don't think so. No.

Well, I heard it wasn't the same one, but it was the replica. I

I don't think so. I don't think so. Uh

you don't think it was a replica?

There's a big a big difference. By the way, a lot of the novel members and people are going to the parties, novel parties and stuff like this, a lot of them are burners.

Uhhuh. Oh, yeah.

Some of them or some of the burners. But, uh let's start on the fact that actually no organization it's a profitable organization.

It's a company actually

like for profit

well of course or formed for like a regular business of course and um I don't think actually culture was a main thing but it did um represent some of principles some of them are similar to Burning Man or Midburn but it's not a replica it's far of being a replica people are going to Nova I don't know how many uh they had over 3,000 maybe people in this party.

Oh wow.

This is uh you know the young generation that going and look for parties and uh looking to get high and getting together like like like Netherland, Netherland whatever all those parties all over Europe and America. Um this is part of these parties you know going in a fun the the there's no uh kind of you know uh participant of Nova party uh building art.

They didn't have like art installations theme artist nothing like

if there is any it has to do with the production uh uh production actually system that actually create everything

like stage like food vendors things like that

everything everything They will sell everything drinks and this and that and decoration and medical aid and the the security whatever it is the production of Nova participant it's not the same as you know you're coming into Midburn and uh Midburn actually will provide you a canvas of fence around security company ticketing system medical uh uh uh department dangerous but the rest participants are bringing with them if the art installation we also we actually we uh we granting also people for art and art grants grand like this but it's it's the community like we like like we know like banning man Nova is not like that I've been connected to Nova since it happened uh I was visiting in New York when it did They had a nice exhibition in New York. They spent I think about $2 million about this exhibition.

Wow.

They have the philanthropia and the way they collecting money is very very interesting and they collecting a lot of money to help families and people who got injured in NOVA.

Okay.

And somebody called me I think my daughter that she met somebody from Nova in one of the parties, one of the organization and you know daddy uh I spoke to this and this anyone to talk to you. Maybe you can help them to collect money in New York. So I went over to installation, met the group of LA.

Okay.

Oh, I was so impressed. Wow. I was so shocking to go there. Unbelievable.

And since then, you know, I'm in touch with them also now in Burning Man. I came to meet with them. I think they're running I think they're running now an exhibition in Lei, I think. So I saw a map or something. They're running from LA to Moscow.

Moscow. Really? Yes. So I I actually I don't okay I'm not I'm not involved in any of the decision but they are actually putting a lot of efforts to uh to actually to bring this all drama and the needs uh to help this community. I read an article today was very sad that one of the Nova survivors 20 22 years old commit suicide yesterday.

Oh no really

was very bad. She survived over there. but she couldn't take it later.

So, it's very sad. But I know there's a lot of people, a lot of those kids are asking for aids and getting aids here and there and there's a lot of organization in Israel actually trying to help them anywhere they can also burning also midburn there's a lot of group over there they build uh communities and kind of camps for them in the nature to for them to come and get a retreat over there. from different people and different professionals. It's it's a big it's a big thing. Big thing.

So is uh I I thought I saw like um it was like request for proposals and stuff where like is this midburn going to happen like next was like next spring or something or I don't know what's the next midburn going to happen? I really don't know. The organization and uh the um After the event, something happened. I don't know the details all the time. They're trying to send me stuff here and there, but after the last events the summer in June, it was 3,000 people. Something start. It was and we had a new uh CEO, Lev, which is a nice guy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Something didn't go right over there. And actually a month ago, this whole thing blow up. They fired came the committee the Yeah, it's crazy over there.

The committee of this nonprofit, nobody knows what's the reason. Lev actually wrote some of uh what happened in his hearing. They uh they did to him. He was very upset. The community very very upset about it also. So and now there is a new kind of used to be the CFO now he turned to be into the CEO and try to get in the middle to different approach now more of participation of the community about this so it's very shaky now and I don't know when what is the next event but the the the Israeli community the community they uh they're coming out with events you know this little communities without organization they don't need organization for that At the beginning, we wanted to have uh trying to push those uh uh communities to the to the nonprofit to have them being an umbrella for insuranceances, for other services, for this and that. And took some time for the nonprofit to understand that they need to support the community in their small events because it's very difficult for these private people who coming with an event to you know to get first of all not for them to be But if something happened, have the have the nonprofit they having a big insurance everything so organized give it to them you're paying for it anyway. So I think the start a little bit uh looking at that also but the nicest event are the small the small events that actually being run by the core of the burns in Israel.

Yeah. Yeah. No I mean when there is running events here in Hawaii, like the smaller events are always the the I think people would connect better, you know? I mean, it's like less drama, always like less less everything, less trouble. I mean, it's like when we ran into trouble with like, you know, the Department of Land and natural resources and the police and the fire department. It's like Yeah. It's like when numbers grew large and you need to have, you know, like

so easy. Not so easy.

Yeah. But what I've learned through my years and you know been fighting all those uh regulation police and this and there the first year was okay the second year they're trying to give us a trouble and with some very tough uh requirements to getting a license for the events. At one point they saw they were not so cooperating. They went to court and and um and uh said, "Okay, they're not complying with our requirements. We're not two weeks before the event. We cannot uh give a permit to this event. The event is cancelled." Okay.

Wow.

Um because we didn't bend down and actually did what they want. Of course, we went right away to court to the Supreme Court and uh and uh not Supreme Court, the to the higher court and uh and um we give them a fight and we won this fight. The court says you guys going to have an event and ask the police to um cooperate with their requirements and if it doesn't have any sense of their um requirements, it's not going to happen. And they came with some stupid stuff. The court says you're not going to get it. It's not right. You cannot come with RVs into the event. Um what was it there? Uh before after I don't remember codes I know families with babies they need this ar they need this this air condition stuff. You cannot prevent us from not doing it.

Yeah.

They want to put cameras to look at the event from security reasons. You're not going to take the camera in people into our into people. like tents to see what's going on there. This is a private places.

That's pretty weird.

We cannot allow it.

We agree that you're going to put cameras, but nobody sit at camera at the at the at the screens. You're going to take this tape if something will happen just to

Oh, yeah.

investigate what's happened there. But you're not going to sit

on monitors all the time watching. Oh, now you're going to see a baby running into a glass bottle and he's going to be cut himself now to death and you from the screen you're going to pull him out guys. So this kind of stuff and the court was agreed to us.

You know what they'll be looking at.

Yeah. And but and this was actually the reason I we understood later on the reason they became tough tough tough about us is that head of this uh um south department of the police it's a division big division uh didn't like this whole idea of uh midburn drugs, nudies, this and they didn't like it.

Happiness.

Maybe it's religious also. I don't know.

And he decided to actually uh prevent us from doing it after court said you cannot you have to allow them doing it and you have to license this thing. Um we came up from court you know all the news in Israel and uh we had a lot of supporters and stuff uh people in the lobby in Israeli lobby and stuff.

At the moment you came out from there from court um I came to the committee and I said guys we have to cancel the event even though me why I can tell you right now if we're going to make the event under these conditions this uh south division of the police were going to come there and look for us with undercover with dogs whatever it is and going to ru this image of this project. I agree to do to proceed of this project if you're going to take me to the boss above this person of the south division. So one day passed another day passed by but in the meantime we got uh an okay from court to continue building before the event. Um two days before for the event. I'm getting a phone call. Nati, we set up an appointment with the chief of this uh guy of this uh and his officer. Uh you need to go right now. It was about an hour and a half drive or something. They're going to wait for you in two hours or something. Jumping into the car, driving over there, coming into your room. All the officers of the S division, the center and this and everybody sitting in a huge conference room like maybe 25 people there.

You were just by yourself.

I went with another friend uh that actually I think through him got his connection. His father used to be in the police and he pull some uh you know buttons here and there and they set up the appointment. I'm coming over there. He didn't have to say anything. I sitting there and we starting the the appointment as the meeting. And uh and then the chief said, "Okay, Nati, what's going on?" "Wow, why you here?" So I'm holding my guts and I said to him, and I'm looking at this m***********, I said to him, "Now, first of all, you better come down. We decided to cancel the event."

Wow. They all looked at me like this and I and I'm all shaking under the table, you know, the moment they said, "Ah, cancel. Okay, thank you very much for the meeting. They're all leaving." No. So this big chief said to me, "What does it mean? cancel. You're not canceling. You guys going to have an event. Let's talk. This is the way it started.

Okay.

And it was a very tough It was a very tough meeting up to a point that I even had some tears in my eyes when this uh m*********** Sorry for the in the

It's okay.

It's in the recording. Radical radical self expression.

Yeah.

Anyway, the moment he said to me, "You guys are all drag that Then this and that and this. I said to him, "Listen to me. You better to recognize those people. Thousands of my kids. You're not going to talk to like this." Okay. At the end. Okay. Does everybody have to say something? Okay. What do you have to say? So Nati, we're sorry. It's happened. Blah blah blah blah blah blah. Nat what do you have to say? I said one more thing. Last year we had 16 officers paid. Now they ask for 32. Why? There is a kind of an agreement. If nothing happened last year, why you actually uh so he stand up this chief big chief and ask him tell me why you guys are giving them so much so hard time and I ask him for no I don't know blah blah blah the first time I hear about it and he stands up over there the chief said okay I took a decision this going to be the first event in Israel with no police at all. What? No way.

Why jumping on him, whispering? What are you doing? You cannot do it. Why you doing it? Sit down. It's my decision. And we had an event with no police.

Yeah. Right away. I went to the security company. I said, "Hey, W people over here

because we save some money, but nothing will happen. I have to prove them that we don't need police in our

Was it just hell on earth? Was this just everybody just all of sin just busting loose everywhere because there's there's no 32 police.

It was great event. I've been running all the time waiting for the Avengers to end already so nothing will happen and then and but this Yeah, this is Yeah, this I never I'm going to never forget this is one of the highlight of my uh of Midburn project. Yeah. Crazy.

So where uh where do you see things going now? I mean just like now a year later after October 7th and then you know everything that happened and

I'm debating if to

midburn if first of all if if to interfere on the ongoing in Israel now people writing me on the personal notes how come you know com comments and I come this say guys let me I need to rest I did my stuff one time I described me midburn as a dead body that all the time we're trying to revive it. Um I don't know what's going to happen. I do believe that I want to believe that we have some burners that they will know how to create their own event that actually apply to the culture uh to uh to moral. Uh in my world there's no rules actually. It's only moral. and uh all the politically correct world is destructed and I destroyed it. I don't believe on other uh people in our history to tell me what's right, what's wrong, is not politically correct. As long as you can keep me moral, you can do whatever you want.

I like

Wow. Well, Thank you very much for everything. Uh do you have any um any any if somebody wants to reach you or or contact you any plugs?

Anybody can contact me. You know when you start me burn I don't want to hear sound like arrogant or something. They came to me the first day came to me one of the friends over there said nati listen we decided to uh build up a data uh of uh this community and we would like to sit and get from you all the stuff you know. I said you guys are crazy. How how can you do that? But I'm willing to share whatever people want to uh share my experience. The moment I will pass away, I'll take it with me. So everybody's invited to talk to me and also get upset with me. It's okay.

But uh would you like anyone to contact you? They got an email or social media or anything or you don't care.

You have my mail, right?

Well, this is just this is your opportunity because on the show you can just like you know you could tell people

you can uh you can contact me by telephone also.

Yeah, you don't have to give out your phone number.

Okay.

You can look at me on Facebook and I'll friend you easily

and my mail. You can put it up on the

Yeah. Yeah. No, you don't have to give your address out. But um

but I will share with you some interesting stuff and some essays that has to do with the

Oh yeah, I'd love to get

this to show some different perspectives how things can look different and another angle of vision that sometime you're not there and I said okay well it makes you thinking I'll send you some stuff.

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