EP 7 Andie Grace

Our guest today is the long-term Burning Man contributor Andie Grace, known as Action Girl, about her extensive history within the organization and the evolution of the global burner community. AG details her trajectory from a "rank newbie" in 1997 to becoming a central figure in the Regional Network and the lead voice of the Jack Rabbit Speaks newsletter, highlighting how the event transitioned from a chaotic desert gathering into a professionalized, year-round cultural movement. The conversation explores key themes of identity and community, emphasizing that the "Shadow of the Man" extends far beyond the week-long festival through programs like Burners Without Borders and the Philosophical Center, which work to preserve the event’s stories and social principles. Ultimately, Andie reflects on how the ten principles serve as a bedrock for human connection, arguing that the true impact of Burning Man lies in the deep, abiding friendships and collaborative spirit that persist in the default world.

Special note: The image used for the episode cover art is a photo taken by Eleanor Preger

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to The Shadow of the Man. I your host Andy. Uh, that Andy. Actually, today we have a different Andy. Andie Grace, otherwise known as Action Girl. Welcome.

Thank you. Multiple Andys. It sounds like we've got an Andy problem around here.

Yeah. Well, I remember years ago we had a little joke where like, let's start a theme camp. We'll call it the Andy Camp. And like everyone named Andy or if you're going to camp there, you have to be called Andy for that week.

It's as good a way to organize yourselves as burners as any, right?

Yeah. So, for the uninitiated people who don't know you, uh your brief history as as as far as I know is okay. You I think you first went in 97.

That's correct.

You started uh helping out media mecca in the beginning, right? And then you were the original Jack Rabbit Speaks.

Not the original. Oh, by no means. The original Jack Rabbit is Marian Goodell.

Oh, you took a Marian started writing the Jack Rabbit Speaks I want to say in 9796. Uh, I have to check my notes on that, but um I became became her assistant and helped her through the media mecca

uh in indoctrination process. Uh, and and helped to write the Jack Rabbit beginning in around 2000. So, I was your jackb for for about 12 years.

Oh, wow. And then you uh led the re the naent regional network for a while, right?

Yeah. So, after I um assisted Mary, I came to Bernie in in 97 realized there was something to be, you know, some somebody behind the whole thing somewhere along the week uh through friends that were volunteering downtown in Media Mecca. Uh shout out to Candace Lleair, Evil Pippy. Um and uh nurse and um I began working at the um office actually processing tickets. So data entry was, you know, people mailed in those cool envelopes. They put art all over them and we'd process the payment and mail people their tickets. So that was my job for a while. I was doing data entry. Somewhere along the way, I noted the registration of a media uh crew and Marian started taking me I went to that meeting with her and I started helping with the media intake process and shortly thereafter started working in the office

assisting her. Uh along the way working in the various communications with the website um all the things we were writing the Jackrabbit speaks the newsletter what have you and along the way she said to me this is the year I want to do something with the regionals and I wasn't really even aware of them at that point but It was a list of probably I want to say somewhere around 35 to 40 people at that time that had um selfidentified as I want to I want to be a person who helps organize Bernie man community where I live. Uh and for some that meant throwing local events. There were local events uh happening at that time. Uh flip side already did exist I believe.

Um and um uh there were people um answering questions locally with friends having gettogethers and saying hey to go to Burning Man. I'll tell you more about it. I go um but

what year was that?

That would have been around 99 98 99.

Um and we began to put our heads together around she had a list already uh in her wisdom had put these organizers of local community together so that they could, you know, share notes about um and resources. And we would once a year mail them a pack of newsletters and maybe some stickers and some things to, you know, share and and um culture, build community. So to say that um I yeah the or the the the um network as it was was very nent. It was basically a mailing list at the time that I came on and she and I and Larry Harvey uh collaborated and the group began to grow over time. Collaborated on how to support all these people out there saying I want to help with Bernie man the rest of the year.

That's a long version.

Yeah. Well, we can get into your Bernie man experience a little more a little later, but uh I think just to start off um I know cuz part of this whole project for me like this call it started where I'm just kind of curious about like you know the various personalities even people like you like I've known you for a number of years but just like your background stories like like where do you come from you know like like how does it all begin so how does it all begin for for Andy like

um

and how did you get to Burning Man like yeah how what did it lead there

that's a great question um I have had the good fortune to ask that question of a lot of people myself because it is interesting what kind of people come to this thing in the first place days and how how did who they are make it what it is. Um so my story is basically that I moved to San Francisco in 1996 uh after visiting uh I came here for a year and then moved back to St. Louis because um that's what a lot of kids did there. We all had our rebound year. I don't know it's a phenomenon you can

Is that where you grew up?

I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. Yes sir. Uh I moved here when I was in my mid20s.

Um very quickly discovered the Cacophony Society um and um but I joined a band around that time with someone who was involved in those antics. His name was Analog Tom Morgan and I was a bass player for a band called Sex Pop.

And uh he wanted our band, we played shows around town, some cacophony events, in fact, some underground uh you know, parties and and weird game shows and funky stuff that San Francisco was doing at the time.

Um so I had already kind of found that millu very intriguing and fun and that was where I was making friends as a newcomer to this town. Um really feeling the cultural beat uh along those lines. Um and so when he invited me to Burning Man, I wasn't much of a camper at that time, I will admit. Uh and so I started dating uh this guy that I was in a band with and um he wanted us to play at Burning Man. It was just the end all be all for him. Um and I was not initially that interested. Um and yet uh somehow I I got to say I guess he had us had me over to a slideshow, showed me some pictures I was definitely a fan of art and crazy weird uh happenings. Um and so he convinced me and my friend Jess to attend uh with the band. We were going to play a show

uh on a stage that I want to say might have been that wasn't the year we played Hair of the Dog. I think we played on a platform in Center Camp around what would have been Center Camp at that time in 1997. So I brought my base and a tent, a fulllength mirror for I don't know, it just seemed like the right thing to do. which ended up figuring heavily into some weird games that we made up around camp. So, that was fun. Uh, I brought a pair of rollerblades cuz somehow I thought rollerblades were going to work as a means of transportation. A rank newbie is what you might call me.

Not exactly prepared for what I was in store for. Um, I would say that the person I was at the time, I was working as a was I a temp or a bartender, something where I was, you know, a middle 20s person who had just relocated and I was figuring out what my purpose was going to be going out there and um finding this set of friends. First of all, I camped with this wonderful group, Motel 666.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, I found a theme camp right away and we were the only theme camp in walk-in camping. There was nothing really happening for quite a few blocks. There were, you know, there were blocks at this time. They had made a street layout situation. Um and so, of course, my mind was blown by art and uh you know, Jim Mason's uh temporal decomposition, the big baseball. Yeah. The clocks.

The clock. Yeah. And and um flamethrowers and crazy vehicles and people, but it was just really the walking around and talking to people and sitting down and having these kind of long form conversations that there was something different uh about that versus social socializing in any way that I had done so far in my adult life. Um people didn't sit down and ask me what I did for a living. I don't know why that was. I can't explain why.

That was always a big no no. And every time I would talk to people be like, "So, what do you do?" Like, back in the real world, I was always like, "Ah, ah," you know, just like I would always get this like allergic reaction and I was just like, "I'm just like asking questions. You just want to find out more about you as a person." They're like, "Here I am like, you know, Jolly Roger or whatever."

Sure. Your first year? Tell me your first year again.

My first year was 96, but um

so that was already a phenomenon that you were seeing and I don't think I felt that I saw allergy to it. It was just not That's something that people asked me. We were busy talking about the moment.

Yeah. What did you first there for like 3 days or two days or something like it was it was kind of well 96 was kind of like a chaos year. I mean also we got it was invited by some friends and they were like, "Oh, you can just tag along with with us." And so it was just like me and my brother and he had this like little VW GTI and we just had like a tarp off of it and we just had these two little chairs and

like we didn't really know what we were doing. And so, uh, I don't know. And I don't think we were there quite long enough, you know, to really kind of get out and like talk to people cuz I think we got there was like Friday night or Saturday morning or something and then we left like Monday morning and by the time it was like out wandering around talking to people like a lot of people were leaving.

Well, and the event wasn't very long then except for the people in there setting up.

Um, and you know, At the time that we both attended, I think there wasn't a lot of, you know, you didn't have media that were telling you what you were going to expect and how to prepare and how you were going to engage with this environment. So, it was it was fortunate in my book. It was great fun to come and have my mind completely wholesale. The roof was lip like ripped off of my experience. There were and been to I've been to maybe like

festivals as a kid, music festivals with my parents. That was maybe the comparable thing or group camp out. Um, I did. There was nothing to wrap my head around what to expect. And so coming in, uh, anything was possible. It was a, it was an engine for like plugging myself in and being like I I am Jolly Roger.

Yeah. I mean, I commend you for like uh, not just like staying at your camp and actually like wandering around and like meeting other people cuz I know like Yeah. My first exper like 96 like yeah, we didn't really much like leave. We just kind of like we're invited by some friends. friends and then I don't know it felt like kind of shy you know it's like oh there's all these strangers I don't know you know and it took a couple of years you know and then like we started the theme camp and then I don't know we kind of got like stuck at our own camp

well no that's true for me too but I will say that I had the fortune of having a couple of anchors of we're gonna go over to so- and so's camp and say hi to him in fact I don't think I was dating Tom yet but he had convinced me to come

um and and um uh you know walking around it was I happened like I said to be in a theme camp already and we were kind of the only bar for miles. Okay. So there was there were people walking up and I was already meeting this this group who had camped together in 96 and they were already kind of connected through a literary and cultural scene in San Francisco.

And so I was fascinated. I was like I get to just walk in and say, "Hi, can I be your friend?" And then we play together and go see art. That's really cool. That was a great thing. And then going out and seeing the other things that people had put their minds to. And then by the end of the week realizing, oh, and someone organizes all of this,

a spark was lit. And I came back to the city and and went to a flambe lounge event, which was a uh, you know, a social event uh, held at Anan Salon, I think, at the time. Um, where someone like Marian, Steven Raspa, people were hanging out. It was a way to go kind of plug in uh, and address volunteer opportunities perhaps.

Yeah. Because I lived in San Francisco like forward to 2001 like yeah I remember

there was like these uh like scavenger hunts and things and

yeah there was this one scavenger hunt and it ended up with a like a party in Oakland or Berkeley or or somewhere and you had to go to like Treasure Island and look at the back of a street sign and get like them the directions to a bar and then over there and I remember like we went and we submitted our an like our our score and they like rejected it and we're like What? And they were like, "Well, if this is true, then you guys would be like by far the winners." We're like, "Well, yeah." And we was like, "Well, here, this first place that you went to, the House of O, you got this like high score. That's impossible." We're like, "Why is that impossible?" It's just like everybody who went there like like nobody got a good score. And I was like, "Well, well, we were the first ones who got there." And I can't remember the lady who was doing that particular place, but uh I think like she had just dropped acid like right when we got there.

That is the a danger of of of this uh cultural echon sometimes.

So I think before it kicked in she was like you guys are awesome you know and then everybody else was just like

you're stoking me to remember the greeter that greeted me at my first Burning Man because we arrived at about 2:00 a.m. and it was a chaotic like you can't those lanes don't make any sense when you've never been to such a place and there were barely lanes at that point anyway and this person was clearly altered uh and I was didn't know where I was going. I don't know how we found our way to our friends in the first place, but

you know, it was an empty slate at that time.

Yeah.

Um

I I I often wonder, you know, those events where you go and someone is, you know, the the scavenger hunt was the kind of thing that San Francisco had that St. Louis didn't have at that time in my life, I'll say.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I remember those like Race to the End of the Night, Journey to the End of Night might have been the names of things like that or and you go go on them and you're like, who set all this up?

Yeah.

Took the time to make this and go put the thing on Treasure Island and blah blah blah. And that was the curiosity that I hit that led me to go ask to be introduced to Marion to volunteer that led to me working there. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But it was funny like I was just thinking about that when you were like, "Oh, when you got to Bernie Band like when your first years and it was dark and you didn't know where to go." I was just remembering like in 97 I think we camped on like it was either the A or the B street at like 7 clockish kind of area and I think we got there like on a Wednesday and it was completely open like and then he even talk I remember Motel 666 you guys were like on the 2:00 side like in the back

we were in about 4:00 and walkin

yeah but the walk-in would be today it's like E Street or something or

Yeah I mean sizewise yeah you still have walk-in camping but it's out past like J Yeah. Yeah.

Um and a bunch of my friends who were involved at the Motel 666 still camp in that area

under a different name and do a different project. And maybe we'll talk about that at some point, too. But

Sure. Sure.

The shred of all of that is still there.

Yeah.

Okay. Uh well, all right. Um well, I guess that covers kind of like what got you to Burning Man. Um but yeah, what about you? I mean, we covered a little bit.

Followed my band, man.

But then you found your heart.

I did. I did. Yeah, we'll talk about that.

Um, you know, very quickly, uh, that became, it was already kind of my millu in San Francisco and that sealed the deal. Uh, my band came back the next year. We played at Hair of the Dog, uh, in 98, which was a great experience. Um, and I just kept plugging in and falling farther in. I was a college student, um, as well. I think that's when I was I was working as a counselor at a children's home when I started going to Burning Man. That's I remember now. Um, and and uh I was attending college and then eventually after working part-time doing that data entry, Marian offered me a full-time job. So that um is when I began participating with her in the senior staff process and um um helping to manage Media Mecca became kind of my primary role.

Um later 90s that was kind of cuz Bernie man kind of first professionalized I guess incorporated like a 97 after the chaos 96 Then like 97 they came back like Yeah.

Yeah. And so then over the next few years I guess they well I guess it's been a process over the years of just professionalization and just growing.

I mean this was a time when as those processes started to become concrete and need more year-round attention like the writing of the permit

takes full-time people a year round process working with that organization. At this point at that time there were times I went to government meetings in Reno with the BLM and the the agencies because of my communications role, I was writing things to talk to the public about that process and sometimes we needed to mobilize people around uh Nevada legislation over time. So my role in communications supporting Marion in that way um kind of put me into relationship with that whole burgeoning organization as it built all those community services that built up around

population starting to double as I took that role.

Uh population began to scale very quickly and all those other teams began to grow. So, we started moving to bigger offices, carving out offices in the basement for people. DPW was developing a really intricate leadership structure to get things done. Uh, you name it. Each department was was burgeoning. Um, it was a really exciting time to be there. It was fun.

Yeah. And then I think something I'm not sure many like newer uh burners or listeners might understand, but this is not like uh there's a collection of like uh MBA grads, but I wouldn't say that. No,

I mean it was a lot of anarchists, a lot of cacophony, you know, I mean, came from like the artistic, you know, Bernie man kind of community and I remember like 96 was a big transition years. A lot some people left and you know, Larry wanted to keep it going and so I was like, okay, we need to take it in this this new direction. We need to professionalize and you know, I don't think it was quite natural for a lot of people to organize all this stuff and like I said, like going to government meetings and getting the permits and interfacing with the you know be

on the face of it on the face of it that's true and yet also um you have a core of people who did come from technologists you had uh you know Harley uh I can name names of all of these people Michael Michael technology the the knowledge of how to work with groups of people the knowledge of communications that came to bear uh beginning to work with those agencies they had some capacity for that

uh they um I think that's what drew them to want to get it done like let's not give up. We can put a little structure around this and hey if we're going to work with people let's make a little database and send let's send them newsletters and communicate you know there was there was the there was a mill of people that worked in those industries because the tech industry was based here. So it was not only you know artists and people who were kind of like what do we do now? Um there was some there was there was a parallel set thing where uh the.com boom happened right around then and so you know watching how businesses were doing things um we were growing up right alongside that so we could take our cues from that and we had access to a lot of people who were participating in the event who had opinions and had ideas and wanted to step forward in volunteer services right away.

One of the earliest for example technological boons was an offer of volunteerism and web hosting space from uh uh you know that we wouldn't have known how to ask for. We had a website, but what do we do with it was somebody volunteering and saying, "I believe in what you're doing and I'm gonna I'm gonna step in and offer this." And that's why you have the robust technological setting that you have today. Marian and crew knew to go say, "Yeah, let's support that. Let's work with that."

Uh that would have actually been Brian Bellorf

at Hyper Real.

Oh, yeah.

Uh I just did an interview with him the other day getting into this history as a matter effect. So,

and then I could just imagine like like like uh like Candace Lle, right? You know, I mean like it I'm sure like as time goes by and like Bernie man is like going in this new professional direction like it just naturally attracts people like you said like people will step forward and be like oh I I have this background, I have this experience and they come in and just being like what you're doing like uh you know let me let me help you out here.

Yeah. Like you mentioned Candace Lair, she uh was one of a group of people in that 9697 era uh arriving and saying you need help with the fact that you have press crawling around here trying to figure out what the story is uh and had that professional knowledge to say if you don't tell them something about what it is they're just going to make up what they think they see. Uh and um that very quickly the the process that I walked into at Media Mecca as a volunteer really on the ply for the first time in '98

was we take their information we put them through a little acclamation we were dressing them up

um and making them kind of take off that vest with the little film rolls in it and, you know, immerse yourself in the community a little bit and get to know this thing.

And the other rule that I remember from that era that was really important was um that was already fully formed and came from this professional advice was don't let them just swing in, get the interview with Larry Harvey and leave.

Um because this is a very immersive and individualized experience. Make them come and become part of it and do something uh and get their information and talk to them a little bit. And that was the time that we were are also organizing around how to deal with the use of images and privacy and that question um when cameras were big and obvious.

Uh so there's a whole history there that I could dive into for some time. But

yeah, well also there was like there's no Wi-Fi, you know, no cell signal. I mean

actually that's not true either, Andrew.

Uh Andy, there was a a group called Cyber Bus back then that you look at them now and you'll see the silver people and this bus and you're like they dive into the party and they would show up and cyber bus. They had Wi-Fi on that bus. They had internet on that bus. You could sit down at a terminal from from Burning Man from several places and access the internet at that time.

So, these were people who were nerding out on technology pretty early on. Those were

Yeah. I mean, I remember seeing like a I don't know when it was like maybe late 90s, early 2000s, but like like not a drone swarm, but like maybe like four drones like in the sky and just back then just being like, "What are these crazy points of light in the sky moving like in a square, you know, we're like, "Oh, you must be high." You know, I'm like, "No, I'm completely sober." I mean, now

yeah,

you know, you see images of like penises and stuff in the sky and you

Yeah, that's what happens when you let the people have control of uh of making the art. But it was it was amusing. And I there's a funny story behind that, too. But

it was women who drew that image is what I'm told.

Really?

Yes.

Oh, interesting.

For these drones that you can program and the audience could have

Yeah. at the controls as well.

And then this year, I mean, like it's incredible. I mean, there was like a blinking eyeball or something like

it's like,

yep.

Wow. Absolutely. Incredible. So, yeah. Um, so yeah, like your Burning Man experience. I guess we've covered a lot of that. So, then like the regional network, so how long so did you did the Jack Rabbit Speaks for like 12 years or something? And then

how long were you involved with like the regional network for?

So, the regional network was I had basically had two jobs from that point. on and you could say that the regional network was part of supporting a communications of what's the story of Bernie man out in the world but it was more a listening and supporting thing um of you want to do Bernie man where you are that sounds like it rhymes with what we're talking about and you're feel you know we just wanted to support people with tools

um

and in what 2004 was when Larry um wrote down his observations about what that looked like in the world what does Burning Man look like in these spaces? And came up with this 10 principles document.

That was when you can really say there was a regional network created because the 10 principles became sort of a scheduled part of an agreement that we wrote down with these regionals for the first time that year. So instead of just getting an email address and a box of literature to share, you were you were becoming part of of this cultural network. Um didn't mean anything financial uh fiscal except for that if you were going to act in the came uh and use certain trademarks, you had to hit certain markers and we still see that in use today. Um as far as how you qualify to be an official regional event, something that had to be done, I think in order to protect a trademark, you have to um keep it. You have to prevent others from using it without your permission, etc. So that's baseline. And but also supporting the culture in the world meant making sure that everything that's happening is is resonant with what we mean when we say Burning Man. So you don't have a Pepsi rave off somewhere that can't assume anything about you know what I mean this is a random example

Pepsi

um so that became you know a lot of listening to the regional network what do you need from us as a central organization it's not like

uh you know we weren't trying to create a model where it's like the home office over here in Scranton or whatever

yeah it was not a franchise operation at all not at all

and yet um what grew up around that has been the most fascinating one of the most fascinating parts of about it for me.

Mhm.

Uh watching very early on as people were somehow intrinsically motivated to organize around I'm a burner, you're a burner, something happened in my community that I want to participate in and be a part of. I remember Arizona Burners, Gary Taylor and and and um friends out there.

Uh I'm forgetting names now. I'm very sorry, but

way early on um getting uh everybody together, not just to have a burner party, but to help refurb a local school

uh with a theater. I think it was an outdoor theater or something like that. And I could name a bunch of other projects like that. We started to see people doing a little bit more meaning making with their Burning Man experience together out there in the world. Um and that was pre Katrina, preBWB. People already had this urge

to to take the principles, take the observable experience of being out at Burning Man uh and bring it into another part of their life. and do stuff together with other people who believed in it. So that was exciting to to figure out how to provide tools for uh and to to participate and to see in action all over the world. Incredible. Just incredible.

Yeah. Well, I guess there was we we had like the regionals list and there was that was very active and I remember at certain points I was talking remember Jeff like Jeff would just be like I'm not paying attention to that anymore. There's like a thousand emails a day.

Yeah.

You know, but it's very robust. I mean uh Uh and then like the the the summits of the leadership conferences came around. Um there was that the yearly the very boozy first camp. I think that's

I guess I mean we had our party to celebrate and you know but we did we started to have those events where you could get together and share face to face with each other how do you do what you do cuz I don't know what you're doing as a I mean I know what you're what the actions are

but what you need and and how you can do what you're doing. as a regional contact where you are,

uh, you have as much or more to tell each other about that process and Andy Grace sitting in a home office trying to keep up with the traffic of thousands of emails.

Uh, and this was preocial media for the most part. I mean, tribe started to emerge all that, but that list really was where a lot of the

the standing off of the corners and the creative because Larry was on that list, Mariam was on that list, Michael's still on that list, they all listen, those people are kind of not arbiters of the culture, but they describe and participate in and and help create and maintain that culture in the world. So getting them together and being able to be with each other became

part of that role. Part of the resources that we put to how we could support them was to make sure they had lots of contact with each other.

Yeah. Well, now it's like social media because I mean the the regionals list nowadays is like not really as much traffic as it used to be. Is it is it just that the the conversation is kind of like splintered off into various different like venues or what do you think? have to be by by by nature of what it is. It's not supposed to be a centralized thing, right? It's a it's a it's a culture.

So, that's going to happen in its subpockets everywhere. Uh and they're going to create meaning around

uh you know what emerges there locally. Um which is why some places have these really robust campout style events that you go do a multi-day lookalike feeling sort of there's a burn at the end. Uh we go immerse ourselves in that. The 10 principles are posted at the front. Other places may choose a completely different path, decide that they want to do a lot of little events. They do stuff that doesn't involve music or dancing or art or there's a lot of ways that Bernie man shows up and means something to people. So, um yeah, there's uh you there's a million examples because when you start to see burners without borders emerge, um it was a manifestation of kind of the same thing. And they married with one another. Very quickly, regional chapters of BWB emerged that I would say are hyper involved and intricately married to um the same sort of corporal body of people out there.

Oh yeah. Well, it's the other 51 weeks of the year, right? I mean, the whole like everywhere kind of project was, you know, it's like regionals and BWB and well, it used to be Black Rockck Arts. What's it now? Or

the Black Rockck Arts Foundation. Um, you know, these are things that are now folded into the mission of the the larger organization. Uh, and they exist as programs within Black Art Arts Foundation is is the arts uh within Burning Man. The various arts programs that you see now. They they just became

uh a program of that entity. They they it the art that Bernie man supports in the world. And there's lots of different programs now that do that.

Um BWB is still in existence. And boy, could I go on at that length about them for some time.

Um and that process, it's been a huge part of my own life. Um, but that began in 2005. Burners at Borders is now uh a support network for all kinds of actions in the world. Um, and that's part of what Bernie man's project supports as well today.

Okay. Um,

and then Black Rockck Solar uh had, you know, an emphasis in the world that it

took on and it was burner saying, "Here's a thing that we think could happen." And they did a whole bunch of work in Nevada did a lot of great things uh and fulfilled a wonderful mission and the you know that's another example of wow I didn't think about that but that's Burning Man in the world too you can drive past it on the way into town into Black Rock City sorry oh yeah you go through the towns you'll see that the solar that Black Rockck Solar built is still on their schools somebody said this is what Bernie man means to me in the world

yeah so yeah so you did Jack Rabbit speaks you did uh the regionals I mean have you just been like a staff member like continuously this whole time or

I have not uh in 2012 um I uh was at that time called the regional network manager and communications manager. I had two roles

uh and I decided to cast uh a sale into the great wide world

uh and step aside for a while and see what else would happen for me and for the organization. But I didn't stop burning by any stretch of the imagination. I did leave full-time employment. I would say that four or five years, four years of the eight-year stretch uh that ensued. Um I did some kind of contract work or heavily volunteered. I stepped in and managed Media Mecca one year for someone on maternity leave uh when when Juno was out. Um and uh volunteered several years there. Uh I don't think I was ever very far away, but I worked in other careers for those eight years. I had a um a film uh distribution company and I worked in video games.

Um.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh and that was great and it was interesting to go out in the world um and uh see what else I had to learn uh and offer. Um and uh I've always I mean working at Media Mecca, working with filmmakers and and media makers was my favorite thing. I still love it and I love creating that content as well. So um learning a lot more about that world and still never being very far away from Burning Man. Never got all of it in entirely out of my system. Uh, and when I decided to move on from uh, what was then I was working in video games. Um, and I decided I'm going to see what else is out there. And um, Marian Goodell called me the next day said, I heard that you might be back uh, in the job market. And we had a good conversation and um, I agreed that this really was the most interesting thing I had ever done with my time. Uh, and that these people were working on something that means a whole lot to me and I had never never really let go of my desire to continue contributing to it. So I stepped back in in 2018.

Oh, okay.

And in that role, I'm a producer.

Okay. So what's your your role now? So you're working with the the philosophical center.

The philosophical center is kind of the house for this whole discussion of

uh looking back on the 10 principles and beyond. What does Bernie man mean? What do we mean when we say it? Uh and where we house kind of the storytelling and the archival content. and um the discussions uh around the philosophical underpinnings of this culture. Um and so that has meant uh what have we done over time? We've done the podcast. We launched the podcast in around 2019 I think was the first episode.

Uh but also we uh helped maintain the archives, video archive.

Um and that I've worked on some some film projects that were continuing to tell the story of Burning Man. So we work a lot with people who are coming to work on documentaries about the event and that sort of thing. Working in the in the in the realm of storytelling of what is Burning Man meant all this time and um and that you know trying to say what Burning Man is or means. I'm never going to try to do that. But I I came back to help collect stories.

Yeah. I put a microphone in front of someone and she's like I'm not going to tell you tell me you know like what what you think it is because like you said like there's a million different story. It just seems like this is such a natural role for you know I mean yes

almost kind of It's great because I mean the other thing we worked on is publishing. We've done a few books now. Uh one book about the regional network. Uh and and one Have you seen that one yet?

No.

You just made a face like you haven't seen Roxan.

Oh my goodness. Okay. So

Oh, wait a minute. Is that the one? Um forgot her name, but she traveled around in a different

That's right. Roxan. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Uh and why am I You're going to have to edit this, Andy, because I'm forgetting the name of the book right now. It's on my shelf. Hold on.

Once Upon a Time in the Dust by Roxan Bersto. Okay.

Uh, and she went to um regional events around the world and wrote about a whole year of traveling to the events to try to

I remember listening to the um the podcast episode about really hiding her out too. Yeah.

Yeah. And she's continued to go. So, working with her as she was in close to final edits

um uh on us helping to support and and and bolster the story with any information she might need from the greater archive. And then we helped her publish that book and release it to the world. We also Um I mean acting as a publisher uh right now um was it's a fascinating experiment that's a books are a way that you hold culture. So um that was one of one of three projects that we worked on. We did

What about Coyote's book?

Coyote's book was the first.

I loved his book. So much fun.

I I I told him I like uh I was like I one day I was like it's been s I got it and was just like sitting around and I was like I'll just read one chapter. 24 hours later I was like like oh my god I just I just I didn't did nothing today. All I did was just read this book.

It's a great picture of that time that you and I came into the picture here of

fills in a lot of holes for me too. I was just like all these other things happened while I was like oh

yeah. So that's an example of you know there's a there's a set of philosophical seeds of information about who we were and how we came to be

and what we are.

Um and Caveat's book um of course too. Um, uh, please cut these ums and a's out.

Oh, that's okay.

Turn your life into art.

Natural. No way.

Turn your life into art. Um.

Oh, yeah. I got to keep right there.

And you know, these are these are philosophical uh explorations of what Bernie man means in the world. So supporting those writings um is has been part of my role. And then uh about a year and a half ago, we undertook the oral history project. And so I have been putting most of my into going back and having this exact kind of conversation with a lot of the cultural players from throughout our history. Who are you? Where did you come from? How did you find your way to Burning Man? And what did you see and experience when you got there? And what do you think of it at all?

Um and putting those into a repository that uh right now is just going into an archive. Uh that's the only we've put a few of them as highlights on the podcast and that's been fun.

Yeah, those probably some of the best episodes I think.

They're great. There's some really entertaining stories in there and some, you know, some real meaning to be found. And

have you found that because it's a a couple of people I've interviewed so far though like they're a little reluctant to talk about themselves, you know?

That is very true.

Yeah. They're like, "No, it's not me. It's it's more of the community. It's more the art or the projects they're they're working on or they want to talk about like the philosophy or or whatever." It's just like, "No, no, me. I'm not so important." But I try to be like, "No, actually, it's like there's probably quite a lot of people who are curious like like who are you? like what drew you to this, you know? I mean, it's it's a the full full story. You know,

as an interviewer, it's it's it's interesting line to figure out how to dig into because you don't want some people really do have reasons that they want to keep certain things to themselves and they're just private people

and they don't want to say, for example, how they grew up. That's how I ask people, you know, who are you, where'd you grow up, how did you grow up,

what is your mother's maiden name, and what street did you grow up and what was your first pet and like

did you like your parents and you know there's some there's some deep stuff in there. So, uh whatever they choose to say and reveal about themselves in that moment leads them to, you know, remembering we're here to talk about Pretty Man and they will usually get to what's relevant about themselves, but you might have to pull it out of them.

Yeah. So, so what is uh what is your shadow like this whole like theme of the show that you know the shadow of the man like it's like how has Bryman like affected or changed your life, you know? I mean, I tried to shy away from like oh what do you think your life would be like without going to Birdie Man? Like who knows, you know, but it's like And it seems to me like, you know, is it a tremendous influence in in your life? I mean, look at someone like Larry. I mean, it just it just it just completely reoriented his life entirely, you know, as a submission to the rest of his life,

you know. But uh I mean some people they'll go for like one year and then like never go again, but yet it it has this effect on their life. So, but like um how about for you? How would you say like looking back over all these years, you know? Uh

I would say that if I try to imagine the life where I didn't find my way to Burning Man the way I did. It's almost as if I was trying to swim around an ocean liner. There was going to be something else that pulled me toward it and I would have ended up there eventually.

Uh, and I I can't explain why. Um, but you know, I did I got to be

involved at a at a moment and work with people like Larry. Um, and that can't this experience can't help but like I said, rip the roof off of who you are. Uh, and and help to shape me as a person for sure. I am a different person because of it. Um, and part of that is gosh, I mean, it's hard to compare it to anything else because where else would something that I did back then,

not so much like what could have been, but just like what is, you know? It's like I mean, you've you've met all sorts of people that influence

I've met all sorts of people, right? I mean,

I met my husband as a volunteer at Media Mecca. We were friends for 10 years um uh before Hurricane Katrina hit

and uh TLDDR version is that I went down to um to participate as a you know burn burners are down here doing stuff. I'm going to go down and see what's going on and the organizations here were helping to filter volunteerism and money this direction. I went down we uh realized our feelings for one another through that storm recovery process and have a child whose middle name is named after a small town in Mississippi where we realized we were in love. Uh so that you can't help but say Bernie man deeply affected my life in that way and so many people have I met my partner at Bernie man's story or I found my people at Bernie man's story. My entire friend network not exclusively

uh in a way that sounds culty and weird because it does kind of when you say it out loud but most of my friends are burners uh and I have deep and abiding friendships that um I don't when you look at community in people's lives and the people that I know that aren't burners. Um, uh, and and how they show up for one another when the chips are down, who, you know, who's there when one of us experiences a loss or has an accident or is ill, um, or wants to build something or wants to start a business or wants to throw a party. Um, uh, and the way that this community shows up for each other is is unique and different. And I think it's partly because we have so much discourse with each other.

Mhm.

Uh and we kind of it's always been a very diverse group of people. And I'm not just talking about racially diverse. That's another conversation.

Yeah.

But uh coming to it from all different walks of lives and saying, "Yeah, but we're going to do this weird thing together."

Um

you can't say there's a homogeneous experience of Burning Man. Um uh until the dust storm hits, perhaps then we all get our ass handed to us. But um you know, it's it's come to mean so many different things that um but when I look at who's showing up in my life when the chips are down for me or who I'm motivated to to go toward, I find it very easy to be earnest with my burner friends and say, "This is what we do. Let's go put your shoulder into it. Donate so and so's got a GoFundMe open."

I don't know. I don't sit in in another community to know how different that would be if I was just

Yeah.

But that is a GoFundMe. You know, someone in our community in your community has an accident. Okay, I hear about a burner in Hawaii who had this accident. Something about that moves me and I help them

or the Lahina fires or something like that,

the fires or really after a disaster.

Um something uh motivates us along lines here to help each other in that way uh and help strangers in this community.

Um that I think is a really it's a tight bond. Uh and having been a part of it for so long um it's hard for me to imagine a life without that kind of of agency with others in my life. I don't know what that looks like elsewhere.

Well, that makes any sense.

Yeah. No, because I mean the word that I've thought about over the years like to me it's Bernie man is just it's kind of the word I keep coming down to is just like a community, you know? It's just like it's our it's like our common connection with each other. And like we were talking about before, it's like when you get to the play, it's like who you are, everything just kind of washes off. And here just like you're this new babe, you know, and and It just strips away these like divisions and and I mean I guess in the rest of society there are other groups. I mean there's like like religions, churches. I mean it's probably the one of the biggest examples of that. I mean I'm sure like the the military you know it's like you know the the bond of like brotherhood, sisterhood, whatever, you know. Um

but uh especially this now 2024 election year where we're like almost like a week away from the election. I mean there's so much like discord and people like going on each other throws like this 50% versus that 50%. Are you going to look like is there going to be war? Are we going to kill each other? You know, it's like it's like uh maybe we're all one family. Maybe we can all

We are hitting a very fine point there because

uh I mean we kind of look at I I cannot speak for the organization about what Burning Man is going through right now, but there's a public going on.

Uh and uh when you mention what America is going through,

uh I think that it is not a dissimilar inflection point because yes we are a community. Bernie man is a community but we're also a constellation of a lot of communities of smaller communities and for each of them what meaning they've made out of Bernie man becomes the thing that they would use to guide getting through this moment

as an organization for Burning Man. Uh but kind of like America there's not there's not a guide book that anybody's written about how Burning Man should do this moment.

Uh and uh And all of these things that we're talking about now that have historically been a part of it, not just that week in the desert, those other 51 weeks

aren't new on the scene, are they?

You've been doing that part for just as almost almost as long.

Uh uh and it got a name and it got a an a an agreement to go underneath it and it became a formal network over time. But we've been doing this other 51 weeks together for a long time.

Yeah.

And the only hope I think for getting through it is not just saying my story is the right story. My story is the version of America. My story is the one Bernie man should listen to and focus on right now.

Uh it's about like okay lean into the fact that we don't know but we all have to work together on it because we agree we're at least all part of something bigger than ourselves, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think

we got

Yeah. I mean Yeah. I think that the rock the bedrock is like our common kind of connection, you know? It's like we might disagree on the details you know, but it's like, you know, a dysfunctional family going home for Thanksgiving, you know. It's like we are still family, okay? Like, you know, Uncle Buck, okay, he might go in his political tirade. He's like, just pass me the mashed potatoes, you know?

Right.

I mean, at least we have mashed potatoes.

We can all agree that we like mashed potatoes.

And we don't know what is going to happen next.

Yeah.

Uh, and

but we'll make it through it. I mean, I think

it's going to happen next year. It's I mean like we always say it's an evolution every year. I mean people might be like oh it's not the same as it was you know like 5 years ago 10 years ago 25 whatever you know it's like but it but it's back and it's here and we're together and it's and it's a community.

Right. Right. And I mean when I say Burning Man's going to happen next year. Black Rockck City will be built next year. I'll tell you that Burning Man as a community is going to be next year. People are still going to do the things that they're doing. Uh that that is Burning Man in the world. And I think the organ ganization is going to persist as well.

Uh and I think all of these things that we're talking about are going to remain part of that story. I don't think

I I don't you know this is an inflection point, but I think that these are all important cultural touchstones to remember that

this has always been what we are. It has not it's never been if it was a party in the desert I would not have given up my career path to it. I would have been bored with that when I was I was never a party girl in my 20s in the first place. But you know I think I kind of became one in this setting. because there

I think when you're in your 20s it's like yeah more I don't know I was more of a party person but now like you know the older I'm like what 53 now yeah I'm like I like going to bed at 10:00 and

but I mean I I went to parties in my 20s but I was looking for a career with meaning right I was still in school I was pursuing something I was pursuing a set of studies uh and when I saw this experiment it became more compelling to me as as a a a picture of what I could dedicate my time to. Why did I give up so much of my time and energy?

Wasn't so that we could go have a place to go

party our brains out in the middle of the desert once once a year.

Yeah, that gets old pretty fast. Yeah,

it does get and it's not going to sustain. You got to have kids. You got to have older people. You got to have generations coming through it. You got to have new ideas, weird new art that maybe wasn't there at the beginning.

You know, I don't always love the fact that all the lights are all the way around anymore. I used to like being able to see the open dark desert, but there's a million really cool art lit up art things in the night now that didn't exist in the world before and that are blowing people's minds. So things are going to change.

But uh you know these little parts it's not any one little thing. It's all we can hear.

Well maybe these difficult times it's you know one way to look at it is is also like an opportunity you know it's like I mean who knows like what new things can come from it. I mean I know there's a lot of people kind of just focusing on the negative but uh I don't know. I always try like more figure out just But you know it's like instead of figuring out like who to blame like uh let's figure out like how to fix the problem you know like like what what can we do like what lessons can we learn and how can we move on and you know maybe try something new maybe try some experiments whatever you know but like like you said there's a momentum Bernie man will still happen like the the regional network will people will still keep getting together the community will go on you know but uh maybe through these conversations

I don't know we'll we'll reach some new places and Yeah,

it's interesting when you talk about the the sort of vitrial that comes especially in the public social media social court of public opinion, social media,

but I I reflect on all the conversations on that regional list over the years. Uh we've had some hot moments in this community, you know, and and that group has found a way to have really complicated and emotional conversations in a civilized way without us having to say there's a lot of rules around that. And that's really interesting to me that Uh that must be it's an explanation of something about the doer in the world because those are doers who stepped forward, right? So

yeah. Um

well also we within like you're saying within the regional network we're kind of known to each other. I think like social media that might be like

sometimes people you don't know or they kind of hiding behind

armchair quarterbacking.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like it's really easy to kind of throw bombs and you're just kind of like oh you're sparkle pony 521 you know like you know. But if it's like oh I know it's like Andy said this horrible thing about me and it's like

right

and at the same time that is the community that is out there doing Burning Man. They make Burning Man. They are their description of what Burning Man is is true.

They are making the thing. We're all right in a way. Um and so you can't not listen to that court of public opinion. You have to measure that sentiment. You have to take the direct feedback into the big machine uh and carve off the corners where it is causing people to not be able to have their story be included in part of that

and or throw a floor under it when it's like hey we're doing burers our border stuff here in the world okay let's give you a list let's give you a resource let's give you a website you know what what we can do as a central organization

um you know if there wasn't a central organization the regionals would stay in touch with one another there's plenty of tools for that they would create something else I think it would still look a lot like a lot of nodes that are connected in some way and I think an organization can be beneficial to keep resources underneath that and keep that cohesive. So, I hope that that part of it persists for a long time. I'm sure there's a lot of good still to be done in the world with what Bernie man needs.

And then um I don't know something my last interview I was interview Goldman uh and he was asking a question. He was just like, "Well, Andy, what is a burner?" And I was like, "Hm." You know, cuz I don't know. I was on the pla this year. Um so I was I was camped at um elsewhere, right? And Uh I remember it was coming up there was like different people having a debate because I know you know Athena you know with her um what is it uh I always forget the name of the the the virtual reality

the ver yeah the VR project BRC

BRCVR yeah um and then it was just kind of the whole debate of like it's like well if you participated in VR like are you really a burner you know and then it's just kind of like well then like it's I don't know the whole like burnier than thou or is like are there no true burners kind of fallacy like It's like what what is actually a burner? And it's it's an interesting question. You know,

that's a great object lesson when you mentioned BRCVR. You know, how how can you possibly understand whether or not that's true? Well, with a story about someone on the other side of the world who cannot come to Burning Man

uh in Black Rock City, uh who may have for the first time finally said, "Well, there's a way I can dip into what this means." And a human being, I've heard these stories about putting on that headset and going into BRCVR and having a live conversation with another person on the other side of the world about a piece of art that was built in there and making new friends and participating in this community.

Whether that's better than or more valid than standing on the in the dirt and seeing the veumatic blowing smoke, blowing fire out of an ice ball that changed my life. I don't know. I can't describe what meaning that has for that person. But they came away and told someone else about it because I heard the story. I heard the story of how that meant something to them and what they felt. They were like, "Oh, get I get it. Burn man's cool."

Yeah. Yeah, I mean again I kind of come back to this whole kind of like Burning Man as a community type of thing and it's like it I mean whether you make the track all the way out to Black Rock City or you just go to your local regional burn or like you said like you you you meet up with people online and it's like you're not even physically there. It's like you have made a connection and like in time maybe we show up to one of those regional events or you make it out to Black Wreck City. It's like yeah it'll it'll be like second nature. So but I don't know It was an interesting debate because like at the camp because there was like there is some people on one side and some people on the other side. Of course burners it's like you know we love to debate you know it's like you can't possibly be a burner if you don't oh yeah oh yeah you know but

yeah and I mean that's a conversation we're going to keep having as technology evolves about the real lived experience of you know to use that example

um or to say are you a burner if you've never been to Black Rockck City. I remember meeting burners at I at the flip side in 2000 in Austin. I don't remember how many people were there. I want to say it was 800, but I met people who said, "I'm a burner." I've never been to Burning Man in Blackwood City, but I'm a burner. This is a burn. We go to a burn.

Uh, and regional burns, they call I mean, my brother, my little brother, rest in peace, was a regional ranger uh at the Missouri burn interviews. And my sister-in-law, my little sister is still engaged with that community. They call themselves burners even though they say it with the same tongue and cheek grain of salt. sometimes annoyed that they have to admit it uh that we do. Uh they get crusty and jaded out there. You know, crusty and jaded is is a perfectly

fine way to burn. I have been crusty and jaded plenty of times.

That sounds like a new Burning Man band podcast to me.

Mornings. Burning band mornings with Crusty and Jaded.

Yeah, I I've I've merged into my post crusty jaded newly earnest. Uh and then back again. a a number of times over the course of uh what I want to say it's you know 97 I basically fell in and got involved right away so

uh I've run the gamut and custo is is a valid place to be.

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know like I said for me like I I'd spent 13 years away and I came back and it's like yeah there were like you know especially just like stories you hear this that but then I get there and I was like it's as magical as I remember. I mean I mean of course this year the weather like we're talking about like the weather was perfect. you know, like the Exodus entry was like, "Oh, it's only 2 hours, you know, not the like 12 hours or whatever I heard people were doing in years past." And I was like, "I don't see what the big deal. Why is everyone complaining?"

And we got a nice dust storm on the way out to remind us who we are. Um, yeah. I mean, this year, uh, back up. You said something in there that I wanted to catch and I totally lost it because you got me thinking about Exodus. Um, I'm sorry to do this to you. We'll say what did I say? Um I don't know. I I came Well, I just like like listening to like the stories over the years like how

this is I wanted to ask you um because you went away and then you came back. What because this is a a unique way to look at it. What is your favorite and your least favorite way that it changed in that period of time?

Well, okay. It was interesting because with Taia, my second guest episode, we went into this whole big long thing about this, but um there was a number of things cuz like like we were talking about earlier, Like I haven't smoked a cigarette in like what seven or 10 years. I think you two like and I remember back then like everybody smoked like one of the things was like at our camp like uh uh it was almost like a regular camp duty was to like to clean out the ashtrays and if the dust storm was coming up it was like get all the ashtrays get all the cigarette butts like put everything and it was always like mooping walking around like we had these little those Altoid tins butt boxes we had tons of them like everyone would always carry them. I'd be walking around in the playa like this year Uh like I I was volunteering at the the Nova Heaven thing. So I was like walking out to the Deep Playa like multiple times like and I I would always like moop and I think the entire time walking I found one cigarette butt.

Yeah.

And I was just like doesn't anybody smoke anymore? You know and it was funny cuz like as a gift this year I was like I'm going to bring a carton of cigarettes and and I was like but you don't smoke. I was like that's right. I'm going to give them all away. And then but Jenny was like don't bring a whole carton you know. And I was like that's a a lot of money, you know, some guy brought three packs of cigarettes. I I couldn't give them away,

you know, like I we had a little bar and like left them on the bar and then I had to put like a note like, "No, please please smoke like somebody and like and it took like days and like nobody was smoking." So that that was one thing. Uh it was a very pleasant thing. And also glow sticks was like no such thing as a glow stick anymore. I mean,

don't eat them.

Yeah. I remember we used to uh get those like big tubes of them and we would we would crack that when we would put them like in the road as like a little arrow like coming to our kids.

So, we're like intentionally like mooping, you know, and

yeah, I mean, thank goodness we figured out some of those things, you know, there's not as much waste. We figured out how to

how to deal with our trash. We're figuring out more and more and I think we will continue to figure out ways to do that thing sustainably.

And just the technologies of different things too, like just like the like the solar powered like string lights and stuff, you know, like

all of that.

I mean, years ago, like we would bring this like 5,500 watt generator and we would basically run like three light bulbs, you know, and this like little TV like we're running

we brought a refrigerator one year. I guess camps still do that, but we were not

that would have been a good use for it, but like we were it was like totally like we wasteful. We're like why we have this big huge and now you know we're like oh you can I mean whether it's like ELY or string lights and there's so many different like technologies for things and and Just like looking at all the bikes like just like lit up with the lights like everything just the sea of lights now like that never was before.

This is going to be interesting territory for us because the evolution of ebikes has people behaving differently.

It's a crunchy crunchy thing for us right now. But for us the organization for burners for the city.

Yeah city.

I'm a walker you know like I walked like everywhere and it's like and there wasn't a ton of walkers. I mean there was definitely a lot of ebikers, a lot of bikers. But I mean, I don't know, it's just different strokes, different folks, you know.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And then the other thing I remember saying was uh just through like the the tales and things people told me and just like you said like the the jaded and crusty murder and I was like, "Oh, I bet everyone's going to be on their freaking phones the whole time walking around, you know, just they're planted like phone plant in front of their face." Pleasantly surprised, you know? I was just like, "Wow." Like I mean, sometimes I see people whip out a phone to like take picture or something, you know, but it's like much less than just I see walking around here in my life,

right? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's funny how something like that I I mean it's probably in the survival guide somewhere, a little hint that maybe put your phone away, but uh it's also just kind of a mo. It's a social mo that people look around and they just don't tend to do it. Kind of like asking what you do for a living. We just have not really ever done that there. I hope it stays that way. You know, keep it in your tent. Nobody wants to see that. Yes, we have Wi-Fi. Don't let anyone see you using that.

Yeah, more and more. And I'm

like a good sticker. It's like that's obscene. Keep it in your tent in this picture of a phone, you know.

Yeah. So, the one stick I don't have it anywhere, but uh I made a sticker. I think I did I give it to you I gave out this year was um there is no them, there's only us. And that was that was quite popular. Like I I've I mean every single person I gave it to, they're just like they They'd look at it and they just be like, "Oh, you know, this is great. Can I have a couple more?" I'm like,

"That's one of my keeping it for a special place" stickers. Yeah.

Yeah. But but I think the best things I would like number of people told me they were like, "This is going to go on my kids like water bottle."

I think that's brilliant. I mean, as a philosophy in the world, existing as a human, it is kind of core to my being to to remind myself of that as often as possible.

There is no us me and you different separation. there's just us. Um and uh when it comes to there, you know, when we talk about sustainability and how we treat each other out there, it is critical to the survival of this event that we love. So really, the way I behave in my camp does affect the camp next door in a very real way. If I drop my trash, it's at my feet.

Oh yeah.

You know, so there is no us in that regard. If I leave that there and we fail, we all don't get to have the thing next year. So it's a it's a really poignant and like it's on on the surface at all times when you're in that environment.

Well, maybe that's something good for us all to remember right now in our current climate when social media and this and that when people are kind of like, you know, arguing this side or that side. It's like, yeah, there is only us, you know, and ultimately that will be the center that we will all come back to.

Absolutely. We're all having a very different experience uh of the same thing. But

but that's what a strong family can do, right? You know, it's just like you have your differences. It's like you have conversations about them and then you you come back together as a family, right?

Exactly. Exactly. Those conversations aren't everything. Uh you know, that's not to say that you have to tolerate bad behavior or any of that, but being able sit and listen to before you make up your mind. You know, contempt without investigation is a very dangerous thing.

Exactly.

Without stopping and listening and looking at what's going on uh for the other person across from you and trying to find the humanity that you share in common,

we're not going to get any where

Yeah. All right. Well, do you have anything else you want to add or you have any plugs or anything you want to highlight or spotlight for the listeners to

Gosh, you know, the I mean, the only plug I'll put in is that this year I had the the singular joy of not only working and doing some of my recordings on the Playa, but uh I did a theme camp again for the first time in space years and we did karaoke uh and just that simple thing of welcoming people who maybe it was their first time I'm on the playa and having a theme camp. You did a great theme camp one year that was compliments, right? Didn't you do participate in a camp that when you come in, they they talk to you and give you compliments. I thought that was you.

We were the cult of distraction. So, it was

distraction. That was it. It wasn't compliments, it was distraction.

Yeah. Our whole thing was like it was a chair bar and we only had one rule and was just you may not ask for anything. And people were like, "Well, well, what do you do?" I'm like, "Sit down, start talking, just make a connection and we'll just start funneling you booze. Like now we've been thinking about reviving it, but as more of like a alcohol free actually would be

hell yeah

hell of a lot easier, you know, like Oh, did you try that I gave you for the listeners? I gave Andy um this is like powdered uh passion fruit.

Lily Koy. Yeah. Did you try that?

I did. It's I love it. I'm saving the other one cuz I was going to make it for my birthday out there. Uh and then It it ended up it's Friday night and your birthday at Bernie man is an interesting thing. You can get people to come and but also there's a giant giant event going on. So Oh yeah. I didn't want to make it and not be able to serve it. So I

Yeah. Yeah. I had a couple. It was like a guava one like oh the gu especially the first thing in the morning like ice cold like guava juice. It's like oh I mean it's Hawaii. It's so good. I think what I think that would like if we go next year and like do cult of distraction again that was that was talk to my brother. It's like that's what We're going to do we're going to get this. The one thing we've been dreaming of was this doughnut machine.

Yeah. So, fresh donuts and guava juice in the morning and then maybe at midnight as well.

That's wonderful. I love I love the theme camp thing of of when people just can walk in and say, "I know I know how to eat a food. I know how to sing a karaoke song." And you get to meet them and and that's you don't end up talking about what they do for a living. You get to talk about the immediate moment. And maybe did you see a giant thing out there that Yeah, you know,

but that was always the magic to me was just yeah, like having like an inviting space and people kind of come up and I'm just like,

you know, we're not don't demand anything. No asking you just sit down like what you saying like tell me who you are. I don't need to know that you know you're in work in finance in the financial district or whatever, you know, like just just start talking just like I'm a human, you're a human. We've never met each other. Let's just start talking and then

then things just happen.

Yep. Exactly. I mean that's the the camp thing struck me last year because I feel like there was sort of a tenor online of people who are coming for the first time like I have to find a theme camp and participate in a theme. I don't mean that uh they're they're a fun way to just feel free to wander in and engage with it if you haven't before. Um but it's not a requirement to participate. There's lots of ways to do it. So I feel like camp because of the direction of tickets and how that evolved after 2012 and and now we're not selling out for the first time. So the directed

going in a new direction now. Yeah. Yeah. So, we're going to see what happens. But don't freak out till it's freakout time is always my motto.

Well, another thing I had heard was that Bernie man went from like 10% theme camps 90% open to like the reverse was like 90% theme cams 10% open. But then this year was a little maybe 7030 or 6040 or or something.

You'd have to I mean placement has to speak to that and you can look at the map and how that all pans out.

I loved being in center camp and watching that re imagination cuz media mech has always been in center camp. So I've watched that space, not just the cafe structure in center camp, but the whole thing uh for 20 years. I love it. It's great. Downtown BRC.

I know it was fun.

I mean all these years cuz I was always trying to like get my friends at camp like let's go to the center camp when they're always like oh why you got to go there that's loud as crazy all these people you know but uh I don't know it was quite vibrant. It was nice. Yeah

it was fun. The city redesigned the way it was changed brought a lot of new traffic and new energy. So, yeah, you know, I found a I had a jaded year and then I found a new way. I'm like, well, I guess I'll just do a theme camp.

And it was totally stupid. I did not have time to do any such thing. And it was it was a bunch of work. It was great. We had so much fun. I did a thing with my friends. It was just so earnest and simple and and and a great way to put fresh eyes on about Burning Man next and next year. I I can't wait to do it again. So,

you're feeling you're feeling a little low on what what to do, find another way to plug in. Yeah, makes sense.

Still do. It's still there. It's still magic. It's still doing what it does. And there's new ways to keep being part of figuring out what the story is. We don't know yet. Let's figure it out. Figure out what you're going to bring to it.

Well, thank you so much. Um, is I don't know. Do you Well, I was going to say, is there any way people can contact you or I don't do you want people to contact you or like uh I know you're doing like your interviews like if someone was like who's like, "Oh, I want to be interviewed for your project or like I

Well, I've got the unfortunately the list is quite long already on people I have to interview as the you know people who started teams people who who who created art back in the day etc. I'm only a third of the way into my list and right now

that project is we're going to hit pause on collecting those stories okay um just because of the moment we're in um fiscally and otherwise and um I'm I'm probably going to still uh be capturing those stories somehow in this world but um for now I'm not I'm not seeking people to volunteer their stories for that no unfortunately But um if you look for Action Girl out there on the social medias, you can find me uh and me I'll give you some links that you can put my my Instagram maybe up for people to to be in touch because I'm friends with you know some of my regional network friends I've stayed connected with just like you over the years. Uh and I love hearing about what Bernie man means to people in the world to this day. It's it's that's certainly what keeps me going.

Well, that's why I'm doing this project. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun.

All right. Well, Thank you for your time and uh I look forward to seeing you sometime soon.

Yeah, I am so glad you came back and we were neighbors in Black Rock City this year. Andy, welcome back to BRC and thanks for having me on the show.

Hey, thanks. 

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