EP 8 Jennie Kay

Welcome to Episode 8 with Jennie Kay. Learn about Jenny Kay, a long-time contributor to the Burning Man community, who explores how her conservative evangelical upbringing paradoxically prepared her for leadership within a radical counterculture. The conversation moves from her childhood in Michigan to her pivotal role in organizing regional Burning Man events in Monterey, highlighting her transition from a restrictive religious environment to a secular "religion" based on radical inclusion and human connection. Central to the narrative is the idea that Black Rock City serves as a sandbox for social experimentation, allowing individuals to test new ways of engaging with one another without the heavy weight of judgment. Ultimately, Jenny Kay argues that while the methods of gathering may evolve, the fundamental human needs for acceptance and belonging remain constant across all cultural and spiritual divides.

This was a very interesting conversation with one of my best friends. Even I learned new things about Jennie.

Transcript

Before we start today's show, I just want to say that that that while this is meant to be a monthly show, I will be bringing you more bonus episodes when possible. Who knows, maybe if it works, this can become a bi-weekly show. Today's guest is a wonderful person, a longtime burner, and one of my best friends, Jenny K. One thing we forgot to get to in the interview was the fact that the phrase in the theme song, party drama, drama, drama, big b****, b****, b**** is entirely Jenny Kay's creation. Anyway, enjoy the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week. After a lot of work, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the shadow of the man. I'm your host Andy, my stars, that Andy. Today, a very, very special guest, one of my best friends in this world, the one and only Jenny K. Welcome, Jenny. How you doing?

Doing great. Glad to be here. It's uh feels a little awkward to be recording one of our conversations, but uh I know now everyone else could hear about it. Yeah. Um so, Okay. So, for the uninitiated people who don't know, because there are some listeners to to my show that have never actually been to Burning Man, you know? So, so just the the elevator kind of pitch like who exactly are you? It's like you're going up 10 stories and you have to explain yourself.

It's like what is what is your Burning Man experience and like you know?

Uh wow. Um what is my Burning Man experience? Uh I've held a lot of roles in the Burning Man organization over the years. Um and uh Sorry, I'm I'm like stumbling here. It's uh Where did you begin?

When did you first go?

When did I first go? I first went in 2002. Okay.

Um and it was a friend of my boyfriend's. I was living with somebody at the time and his best friend had gone for a number of years and he's like, "Hey, you guys got to go to this thing. It's, you know, amazing." And at the time I was currently throwing a lot of parties and ever since I ended up living on my own, I always created space for people just to be themselves. That was really important to me.

Um, no matter where I was, what I was doing, long before I ever heard of Burning Man, I was deeply invested in making sure that people always had a space to be exactly who they were and more importantly experiment with who they wanted to be. I didn't have the language for that at the time. I was like, everybody's cool here, you know, like just I was a maniac, right? But like I just knew that like

people needed a space to do whatever ever they wanted um as long as they were cool to other people. And that was sort of my personal religion, personal space and sort of the the thing that I was building. I didn't have any ideas about going any bigger than my living room. Um and I I didn't sincerely have language or understanding about what I was doing, why I was doing it. I just knew that people always needed a place to feel better than they did

in their everyday life. And so at the time I was hosting a lot of parties and gettogethers. Our house was the place people would always show up to. Uh we had a a weekly movie night going that people would show up and watch a movie every week and we'd share dinner. Um we'd have regular parties, art nights, craft nights. So all that was happening before I'd ever heard of Burning Man.

Um

so then you guys formed uh like Cypress Lounge bingo, right?

Well, not at first. The first year we went was um our our friend who kept trying to get us tickets. We're like I just wasn't interested because I don't like large groups of people.

Um,

and a little bit of background on me before I get into the Burning Man part of it. I was raised in Michigan, uh, for the most part.

Well, we'll get into your whole story.

Okay, enough of that. So, all right. But

this is just a basic kind of just I got there. Okay. Sorry.

Or well, no, just just like you know, you you first went in 2002.

You had a theme camp for a number of years, right?

I did. Yeah. So, we went and I get there and um yeah, my first reaction was, "Oh my goodness, my living room got a whole lot bigger. Like it wasn't I wasn't like shocked about what was going on. I was just like,

"Okay,

there's like a venue for what I'm already doing." Like,

and then it kind of expanded from there, right? It's like then you later became like the the uh

regional cont. Yeah.

Yeah. So like year one I just went and like observed. Year two I came back with 12 virgins, a theme camp, and a carport um and camped across the street from you. And um and so yeah, I founded that theme camp, Cypress Lounge Bingo, with my previous partner. Um

and we ran that theme camp for several years, joined forces with Cult of Distraction, your crew,

and we had a joint theme camp for several years.

And that first year, 2003, you talked to me about this thing called the regional network, which you know were representatives from all over the globe or at that point United States. I don't think we had global representation.

Um maybe London at that point. Um,

yeah, I can't remember.

I don't I honestly don't remember. It was all such a blur.

And my first reaction was absolutely not because I don't want to join a group of people, an organized group of people doing the same thing. Sounds like church. So, I don't want to be a part of that and I don't I've never been one for a bandwagon. So, I assued that for years until finally,

were you the original Monterey regional contest?

I was not. Um, there was a guy, I can't remember his name now, who would go to the Borders. There was a Borders bookstore. Um, and he would go there with the little brochures that Burning Man gave him, set up a table and ask answer questions about Burning Man. Um, and in parallel at this time, I'm throwing these big parties. People would come back from Burning Man and like everybody would show up to my house and like I was the epicenter of all things burn in the Monterey area. So, finally

an individual named Beex Ryan um who was running and with Andy Gray supporting the regional network at that point in the game uh essentially reached out and said, "You're already doing the job. Will you please just take the free ticket?" And I was like, "Fine, fine." I think it's like two or three years of people like pushing me. So, I finally just said, "Sure, fine." And uh the mantle was handed over to me

um to help organize this thing and started growing from there.

And how long did the regional contacted Monterey for?

I was a regional contact in Monterey for maybe six or seven years.

Yeah.

Um it's funny to say that now because it seemed like like so many things happened in that time. Um and it's funny to think that I've been formally away from that role for 12 years now.

Wow.

Um

yeah. Uh however, a lot of the imprints and the the activities I experimented with and started building there have informed confirmed a lot of other things and um yeah created some ongoing conversations that still exist

today. So it was a pivotal time in the growth of the community and um was very happy to be front row seat to all of that.

Were you involved in the Seattle kind of regional stuff?

I was I lived in Seattle for 5 years from 2014 to through 2018 and um was very involved in their regional community up there. I was not a regional contact but was extremely involved in their regional community. for some of their events, crises, and other uh angles.

Judy Kay always good in a crisis.

She is always good in a crisis. I'll give her that.

Uh what do we say? There's no me day in an emergency.

No, there is not. So,

and then also you were on um a Burners Without Borders uh

I remain Yes, I I remain on the Burners Without Borders advisory board. I've been involved with BWB since 2012. formally involved since 2012. Um and yeah, on the advisory board, have been on the board for many years and um um these days I'm very passionate about that work and

feel strongly about what's possible through that arm of the burn. And it's it's exciting to see people uh supported by a community that's enthusiastically dedicated to renewal and regeneration and the sustainability of Burning Man. So, and not just Burning Man, but our our greater communities and how we are sustainable as human beings

um in the process of doing the things.

I mean it's not just a big party.

Well, it's always a big party, but what is the big party achieving? Come on. Life is one big party. Come on.

Yeah. It's like the yin and the yang. It's like, you know, you got to have the the party and the good and the good and the party.

All right. Well, now that we have that little background out of the way, uh

All right.

So, where did it all begin? Where did a little baby Jenny like pop into this world and like

Baby K? Yeah.

Um so yeah, born in Michigan. Um the uh yeah, raised in a very conservative Christian family. Um and one of the interesting pivots uh that I was able to witness in my family. Um and what's interesting is my grandfather, go back a couple generations, started a remote religious community up in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Um it was a vacation community that had a Bible church camp attached to it. And He had this passion of bringing kids from Detroit up to the upper peninsula to see the Hayawaka wilderness

and uh it's around a lake called Piet Lake. It still exists.

Uh the Pible Lake B I think it's Piet Lake Bible Conference, something like that.

Wow.

Um and there's like maybe 100 or so homes around this lake.

Um and I have a lot of family that still goes up there and you know it was extremely conservative. We'd spend every summer there. You weren't allowed to swim on Sundays. There was you know. Oh yeah, it was really uh you know, we played a lot of cards, you know, we did a lot of outdoor wilderness stuff. Um

no swimming really.

No swimming on Sundays.

That's not work though.

No, it's it's fun. You got to just, you know, focus on focus on the JC for the day, you know.

Jesus loved the water, you know. Or

Well, you're allowed to swim now, so you know. Okay.

Yeah, they they loosened it up a little bit, but um yeah, so like I wasn't unfamiliar with like isolated communities or you know people that chose to do

something with their belief or faith.

Um

and so uh one of the interesting things that took place in my lifetime being part of the evangelical community was being raised in the late 70s early 80s in that community uh we were part of a community church that was really about in my memory love community. I remember potlucks. I remember

yeah

um joy. I remember people

getting together in the summer for revival meetings and and things of that nature that was like celebratory. And then I also witnessed during this time my brother ended up going to Liberty University and we started watching Jerry Fwell and then we started watching Jim Baker and we started having Christian radio on in the house a lot more and all of a sudden we had all this media that was uh telling us how to live our faith versus

and all of a sudden like we weren't doing potlucks anymore. We weren't

really

connecting with other people. We were angry at people. We were criticizing others. We were

they theming. We were, you know, um us and them. And it it was an interesting thing because and and granted I I grew up so maybe maybe this was happening when I was a kid, but it was so distasteful to me as a teenager

and it and you know, it was just a different conversation and I just started people I saw people becoming less joyful, less kind, less and maybe maybe it was just me. Maybe maybe I was someone that just saw those things. I don't know. Um, but it just felt really weird and I'm like this isn't the message that Jesus Christ put out. And I started jokingly calling myself a red letter Christian. I was I was very like really into the Christian thing growing up. Like I just I wasn't angry at it. I was

Well, you know what that mean? Is it was it

in the in the New Testament? Supposedly the words that Jesus said

like actually said yeah

supposedly. Yeah. I mean validity questionable. Um

but supposedly and it was you know it's only like 200 words in the entire Bible or read

like those are direct Jesus quotes like in

the direct Yeah. The direct Jesus quotes and and those were like be cool, don't be a dick, feed people. You know, I mean, summary, right? Like

that literally kids at home like Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, like I'm I'm looking at people not being cool, kind of being dicks and feeding no one, and I'm reading the Bible, and I'm like, "Hold on, this isn't matching up." And so, I started really taking a lot of um thought towards what it means for me

to be in this community, what it means for me to be in this belief system. And um that eventually led to um me doing some critical thinking. And one of the big deals was making my first gay friend.

And when I was 16, I met Steven Black who saw me and we became fast friends. I would say the first person that truly brought Jenny Kay out of her shell was Steven Black. He lives in Chicago, Illinois. Still one of my best friends. um forever a family member. And he took me to my first gay bar. And when I walked in, I realized now in hindsight, I was just talking about this the other day, it was the first time I'd ever danced with other people.

I'd always danced alone in like my bedroom,

but like never not allowed or something.

It wasn't We weren't part of a community that danced, you know, like we had to like at school we had to sign waiverss every year that we wouldn't smoke. drink or have sex. We didn't have school dances. We didn't have It just wasn't that way.

Well, it's not like Foot Loose. It's not like the town that was like band dancing was banned, right? No. It just It just wasn't a thing.

No, but like my grandfather, for example, he wouldn't perform. He was a minister for a long time and he wouldn't perform my cousin's wedding because there are candles in the wedding and that's a pagan that's a pagan thing really.

Uh we weren't allowed to have dice in the in my my grandfather's house because

dice and playing cards not allowed. They weren't My my parents weren't as strict, so we there was plenty of board board games and dice and all that stuff. Um, but like specifically the tools of gambling were not in my grandfather's house. You could play Skipbo, but you couldn't play Rummy

because Rummy was playing cards. Skip go. Skipo did not have traditional,

you know, it's a real real fine line there.

What about cornhole?

You know what? We we didn't we didn't tread the cornhole bridge while my grandfather was still alive. That's a pitch too far for grandpa.

Yeah. The delicate cornhole dance of conservatism. Yeah. Um

it's like no, it's just the name that's offensive. It's a wholesome game itself. Grandpa

putting the hole in wholesome always. Uh

no, but that's kind of interesting because like as growing up like in the 70s and 80s, like you're in this kind of close-knit community and you can see and then like as you know I well it's not social media but like it's a different kind of media that's social you know comes along and people from like far away are tell telling you like this is not cool. This is, you know, this is what you should do. Like it's interesting though. It just changes like communities, but then you still like from the the eyes of of babes, you know, it's like, you know, you're young, you just kind of like, you know, but wait a minute, this this this these things don't quite go together. Like yesterday we were having fun at the, you know, potluck and now today, you know, you hear something on the radio and now that's not cool. Like what what gives, you know, like

Well, and I think it's not even as much as as a conscious like shift. I think people's time

maybe time they previously used to host a potluck was now being spent watching television.

Ah yeah

you know um conversations that you know previously may have been about what are we going to cook for the potluck are now are we giving money to this guy on the TV or are we not giving money to this guy on the TV

and probably argue about it too. Right. Yeah.

I'm I'm not here to speak about that but the uh

um But you know we only are able to have so many conversations in a day and so you know when something else takes the place of the other thing falls away. So

um

how did you uh so how did you get out of all that? Like where did you did you go

how did I get out of all that?

Uh one of the first

I I went to Bible college uh for a year. I lasted a year and then ended up at a couple other little colleges. Um yeah my my Bible college like half the hall was Menanites. Uh had like bonnets.

Oh, yeah. No, I was very conservative.

Did you rock the bonnet?

I did not rock the bonnet. I was not Menanite. I was just

non denominational. Um, and you know, and I'd had the experience before I went away to college. I had I'd had the experience of going to the gay bar,

which sounds like innocuous. However, I finally felt on Saturday night what everybody told me I should be feeling on Sunday morning.

That level of acceptance that level of just being able to be myself. Uh there were people at the bar that would call me Jesus girl because I was I I I was still like a a super Christian. Yeah.

But like there wasn't anything I was doing that was against my faith.

So, you know, not everybody around me saw it that way, but

yeah,

you know, I knew my heart. So, it was funny. I was dating this boy and he showed me the movie Annie Hall. So, I didn't grow up with a lot of movies, so I missed most of the TV and movies growing up that everybody has seen. knows and loves so well. And so he shows me Annie Hall and he says, "Well, what do you think?" And I'm about 20 at this point. And he goes, "Well, what do you think?" And I was like, "I really like the movie, but I don't understand why he just took the Lord's name in vain so much."

And he goes, "I don't understand." He's like, "What are you talking about?" And I said, he just kept saying Jesus Christ this and Jesus Christ that. And he starts laughing and he goes, "JK, he's a Jew." And and this was like this Helen Keller moment. for me of like

it's like oh yeah

oh my gosh it's not offensive to him like that relativity just became so crystal clear like I had been in such a bubble for so long and it was just that one comment of like

and then I just started seeing everything differently and realizing you know how little perspective I had much perspective building was there the reality of you know I always had a math and logic brain so all of a sudden the reality of 7 billion people on this planet having different viewpoint all like clicked into play. We're all Kaiser. So say yeah. Um it was

it was a huge moment for me and realizing that I'm only responsible for myself and I'm not responsible for the story of other people and I'm not responsible for their viewpoint and I'm not here to judge their viewpoint. I'm here to hold it.

And that was a really big shift for me in my faith and how I saw people and how I saw my role in this world. Um didn't have language for it.

Well, you miss Gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I was in Michigan. I'd left Bible college at this point and um I was yeah dating this boy and that was like a big realization. Didn't know what to do with it. Uh trudged on for a couple more years in Michigan and then was at a party one night on a Friday night and a new boyfriend and I were there and everybody was hammered as usual. It's Michigan Friday night 90s.

And I got so sick of people talking about the same thing. Oh, when they get enough money they're going to California. When they when they get to this thing this is going to happen if then if then if then but never actually happening.

And I snapped and I said I am so tired of this conversation. I said I I none of us are doing what we say we want to do. Why? I said name your fear right now.

Name your fear. And everybody's like what the hell's happening? And I'm like what's happening is we're having a real conversation. Name your fear. And so I said I am afraid that my family will not like me for me. Like I'm really afraid of just being myself and and it doesn't feel good. Like every time I I I push a little bit outside the box into authenticity, I feel rejected. I feel sad. I feel all these other things. So my boyfriend and I have a conversation and the night got super real. Like people are crying, people are telling their truths. It was like super intense. Um this was in 1997 and uh my boyfriend and I that was a Friday night. Then on Tuesday we went to the library because internet wasn't a thing for us

and went to the library, started reading like let's go far from uh looking at all these different books about where to go. Um we decided we were not going to move to Albuquerque because we didn't know how to spell it.

Uh we weren't going to move to Palm Springs because that would just be like totally reliving Generation X book. We didn't want to be that tropey because that book had just come out which was like our on the road for the Gen X

community.

And then um you know Dallas, we weren't going to go there. That was just too too south too central United States. Phoenix was just too much cement. LA was too LA. We didn't know what we were doing, but we knew we were leaving. So, we we packed our cars. I left a note on my parents' counter. Uh I was like 23. My mom still refers to it as running away. Um but I was 23 and um we packed our cars and drove across the nation with no destination

really.

Uh we didn't have a destination. We had like uh he had a couple thousand in savings. I think we had about a thousand bucks between the two of us.

Um, and we just drove

and we just kept driving. Uh, I remember the day we left was the day Princess Diana died. Uh, the next day, uh, Mother Teresa passed away.

Um,

that was right about Burning Man time. I remember that

because I think it was like September. It was like the first week of September 1997 somewhere around there.

Cuz I remember cuz I was at on the Playa in 97 and I remember like there was like the rumor going around like, "Oh, Princess Diana died." We're like, "Oh, yeah. whatever b*******. And then as soon as we like left the plane and we actually heard the news, we're like, "Oh, she did die." You know, like

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, we ended up, ironically, we ended up in Albuquerque and um

spelled spelled Albuquerque wrong a few times on a few job applications, but um a week to the day of us getting in the car and leaving, uh we were both employed and

Oh.

and had an apartment in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It was the start of the next adventure. So,

Wow. How long were we in Albuquerque for?

Um about uh about a year and a half and then I worked for a small airline called Mesa Airlines

at that point. They're a huge airline now, but at that point we only had like 19 planes or something, 11 planes and we were out of Farmington, New Mexico

and um it was just a regional hopper for New Mexico

and uh eventually they moved to Phoenix and became the huge conglomerate they are today.

Um and then that job took me to Monterey, California. Um and so

Oh, okay.

Yep. Mhm.

That's how you get to Monterey.

That's how I got to Monterey. I walked off a plane. Never been there in my life. I walked off a plane into my office and there it was. Yeah.

Wow. And so then uh who's you say that got you to go to Burning Man? This was a

a guy named Jeremy Hansen. Um you met him, you camped with him a couple times.

Yeah. Yeah. Jeremy. Okay.

Jeremy.

So you met him in Monterey or

Yeah. He was my boyfriend's best friend. So uh

they had grown up together and he gave us these tickets. I didn't do any research. I was just like, "Whatever, just pack the car." My boyfriend's like, "At least,"

Yeah. My boyfriend's like, "At least go on the website." I'm like, "Whatever. Don't care. It won't I" I said, "It won't change me knowing anything won't change what happens." So,

um, I just showed up with, you know, some craft supplies,

which was normal for me. Like, I wouldn't have camped without craft supplies. You got me.

So, uh, yeah. And, um, Jeremy couldn't go that year, so he gave gave us his tickets and there we were. Um,

Wow.

But yeah, the first year was just sort of sit back and observe. Yeah.

2002 you said

2002 floating world. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that I missed that year. I think that was the first year. I think Oh, yeah. That's when I first became a regional contact and we did our ah

first thing out here because Dan came out here and we did our like first like beach burn thing.

Yeah. And then 2003 was when Yeah. we came back and we next to Spock Mountain Research and you guys were across the street and we met you and

Oh, yeah. History was made.

History was made.

All right. Well, that kind of gets us to now to the second question. It's like your Burning Man experience, you know. So, like you said, you went 2002, you saw how things work. You turned 2003, you came back and you're like, "All right, people." I mean, were you the main one in charge of like or kind of uh

It was It was my boy. It was my boyfriend. and I, but he was more like, I'm going to build the carport, you organize all the people, you organize the food, you you know, I was the social director for sure.

I build the house, you do everything else

pretty much. Um,

yeah. No, I don't want to I don't want to shade him because that sounded shady. And he did a ton of work. You know,

he did a ton of work and it was definitely a joint enterprise and I don't he couldn't have done it without me and I could not have done it without him.

And looking back at the amount of

organization and um party planning and community growth that we did together. It is incredible the amount of things he and I accomplished in those five years.

Um

accomplished and broke. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

As as Burning Man does, both a glue and dynamite. So, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess you know what it doesn't like destroy makes stronger.

Well, I think it's also I think what it is is you know, we talk so much prototyping and sandboxing and um when people ask me to define Burning Man I say it is Black Rock City is a defined space for people to experiment

and you know we like to say it's a social experiment and also if you look at the organizational aspect like Bernie man the organization Bernie man project the organization there's not a lot of experimentation there that's the structure

and then if you look at the attendees

those are the people that are responsible to be experimenting um one might say. Um, and

yeah, and so I personally have always had such a great experience, not maybe every single day, every single hour, but overall, um, a phenomenal experience of being able to experiment, prototype, sandbox with whether it's social structures or, um, how we engage each other, how we communicate, what are we building towards? And so using not just black rocks city, but also then the regional network structure to continue and scale that experimentation. Um, has informed so much of my life and my career. Um, and I'm super grateful and I think it was due to my background in religion

that I never fell so hard that I thought that Burning Man could solve anything for me. I thought Burning Man was the platform that would help me solve my thing.

Yeah.

You know, like like it was a tool. It wasn't my destination. Exactly. Exactly.

And that's um you know I I recall one of the big shifts for me in the Burning Man world was we had thrown a party on the beach in Monterey or in on the Monterey Beach somewhere

uh in 2007 I want to say

and it was huge. It was um I remember the week leading up to that event I had two total strangers invite me to my own event which

that's awesome.

If you've ever If you've ever thrown a renegade party is one of the most terrifying feelings you can have because you're like

renegade. Yeah.

And and this at this point was, you know, now today we wouldn't we would be horrified to say, oh, we're going to do a beach burn without permits. Well, back then we're like, okay, we're going to get some we're going to get some friends together on the beach and and do that. But then friends have friends and more friends have friends and all of a sudden I've got total strangers inviting me to my own party and I'm like,

"Oh, there's a fair chance I might get arrested on Saturday, you know, like this is

so

Been there. Yeah,

you've been there. Yeah. So, but that night, um, it was huge. It was way larger than I'd ever imagined. It was so big. So many people. And we probably had a couple hundred people there. It was loud. Uh, you know, we had DJs, we had two generators, we had two massive fires, we had the the VFW bingo blower out on the beach. I was calling bingo. Um, awesome.

Yeah. And for those that don't know, I used to run a um a bingo flogging camp. And uh the I used to own this huge VFW bingo blower that would go with me pretty much everywhere uh to call a bingo game when needed. This massive multiund pound contraption.

Yeah. I got to say I have very very fond memories. Like I just remember in 2004 when we were like Cypress Lounge Bingo and Cult of Distraction were camped like right next to each other and a typical Cult of Distraction fashion, you know, we were like staying up all night long getting like really drunk and so then like, you know, trying to sleep during the day. We didn't have any shade. So, I was trying to get this one spot of shade that was like underneath the truck and it was like the afternoon when the shade was just right and I was like right when you guys were like, you know, like you were just in just high fashion just like doing your full-on like bingo thing and I remember our friend Greg was there too like

and just like just drifting in and out of sleep and and listening to this back and forth with like you and Greg and just these these random burners that you managed to like snag.

Yeah. The the improv theater of bingo Wayne vlogging bingo improv theater was uh exceptional, unique, and um an incredible it it was definitely an incredible era for sure.

Could you imagine if someone had like even just done an audio recording of that and then brought that back to like your family or something? It's like, oh, what's Jenny up to nowadays? Like Oh my stars bingo.

No, honestly I I would probably lose my job now if there was a recording of that. So yeah, I'm really grateful there isn't because taken out of contact that could be frightening. Um

this this small child of yours, Greg, you're like he's baking your drinks. You're like

Yeah.

Like is that a small

And for those that have and for those that have no clue what we're talking about, I had a 50-year-old drag queen in our camp that had a beard and would often dress like in an Esther Will Williams type bathing outfit with um the beard, way too much makeup, uh yellow blonde pigtails, and usually a testicle hanging out of the bathing suit. Um and it was just a lot of energy.

Yeah. A lot of energy, a lot of character, and a lot of looks. So, yeah, it was good stuff. Good stuff.

Um

Yeah.

But yeah, so we had the huge we had this huge party on the beach in Monterey.

And And the the police did end up showing up and they said, "Who's in charge here?" And I'm like, "Okay, great." So, I I start walking forward and I'm, you know, just to paint a picture, I'm in uh a flight suit, a fun fur bra, and a huge pink and orange massive wig. And I was calling bingo with a foggger in one hand when the police showed up. And I'm like, "Okay, great. This is what my mug shot's going to look like when I finally get arrested."

So, I I walk up and they're like, "What is going on? And I explain and they said, "First off," they said, "If we weren't working, we'd be here right now."

They said, "This party is amazing. We busted so many parties on this beach. We've never seen one so organized. We've never seen one so tidy. You've got recycling bins you can ever get."

Absolutely. They were super cool. And I said, "Well, here's the deal." Um, they're like, "But you need permits. This isn't, you know, you can't do this. We're getting sound complaints from across Monterey Bay." Like Carmel is calling in sound complaints. So, um, the, uh, they're like, and I said, "Well, I have a ton of fire spinners that came down from San Francisco. If we kill the music, can we let people spin fire uh, and we'll clean this all up?" And they said, "Yes, if you do me one favor." And I said, "Absolutely. What's up?" They're like, "Convin me all those 17 year olds stealing beer from the bar are at least 21." And I'm like, "Oh, what?" And so I look over and there's like all these like kids like running off with cases of beer. And I'm like, "Oh, jeez." So I go, chase after the teenagers, like deal with that. The police were super awesome. Um, and they stayed there till we cleaned up, but they were just like thrilled with what was happening. And so I called the city of Monterey on Monday morning. And I said, "Hey, this is JK. Um, you know what we're about.

Now, how do we make this legal?" And they said, "This is all anybody's been talking about is what was going on on Saturday night." So, I came in and met with their recreation director, the fire director, the police chief, um, or like fire chief, police chief, all the folks. I wrote up the 10 principles in normal language.

Like what is like at that point they just sounded um yeah the 10 principles are great, love them, but in the context of everyday alignment with people.

Nobody knew what the heck they just sounded like a fruity cult. So um

yeah,

so I pulled those I just rewrote them so it made sense and then I wrote what was that impact in our daily community. So what does radical self-reliance mean to the Monterey community?

What does radical acceptance or I don't even know what the principles are, but

what does radical whatever the f*** we want to do to each other in kindness and love look like in an everyday scenario?

Yeah.

Um because people looked at Burning Man and they're like,

"Oh, those people, those weird people, those

Yeah.

strange people." And and I wanted to be able to translate that into an everyday experience for people in Monterey. Now, the idea of meeting with the city government and producing an event for free on the main tourist beach in Monterey, California was so radically not Burning Man at the time. I had people in my own community very angry at me because we were bringing what was private into the public sphere.

Yeah.

Uh that was like I had people screaming at my face like, you know, f*** you. f*** you for working with the man. Who do you think you are? This, this, and then I had um Bernie man or uh at that time Bernie man LLC.

Um and I requested official event status for this free event I was doing on the beach

and they got upset

because they wouldn't say upset. I would say they challenged what I was doing because it had not been of course there was concern because it wasn't controlled. There was no boundaries on this event. There was no gatekeeping. There was no cost to get in. Anybody that walked by could be a participant.

And so participation was going to be very organic. It looked different. It was immediate.

Um which I know we talk about immediiacy in our principles, but what does that look like

outside of that sandbox? This was a much different sandbox. And so

like could you have like a safe space sandbox where for people to to radically express themselves if they're They don't have high walls for you to hide behind to like, you know, to do your your your radical thing. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And and something I've always said when I when I teach community building classes is, you know, something I noticed early on in the Burning Man community was was this like just passion to identify our differences. Like look how different I am. Look how unique I am. Look how radically I'm expressing myself.

Uhhuh.

And so the fact is though You can't radically express yourself. If you need to go have a conversation with the city council, that's not the time to radically express yourself.

And so I always stated um my my my c my phrase that I used in these classes was um you're never going to be able to build an inclusive community with a dildo strapped on your head. But you always but you always want to build the community for the guy who wants to strap a dildo on his head.

And maybe that guy is you, but you're never going to get city council approval with a dildo strapped on your head. That's just

full stop. You got to put your pants on and go in and speak their language and make it digestible for them. And so it

so they can eventually accept a guy with a dildo on their head,

but you don't lead with a dildo on your head. I'm going to see how many times I can say dildo on your head in this conversation. That's going to be my

Well, let's make this a drinking game for the kids at home.

All right.

Dildo head. Dildo on the head. Dildo on the head. That's three drinks. But yeah. But um it also kind of brings me to something else like the whole idea of that the 10 principles. I know like over the years I mean it was it 2003 2004 when Larry first kind of wrote it down with

I mean all of these ideas were like

percolating around for 20 years or something you know or like 15 years or whatever. I mean I mean like the leave no trace and like radical self expression. I mean like I mean so he kind of formalized it. I guess he famously came up with nine and they were like only won 10 and he came back and was like, "All right, immediiacy."

Yeah. I don't know. I never really came from. But like it's kind of interesting because like I mean like you're saying like uh in the default world you can't just naturally just plug all of these in, you know, like it's like uh how you going to tell your landlord, you know, when it's time to pay rent? It's just like, well, I don't I don't believe in de I believe in decommodification, you know? It's like, you know, it's like you got to pay your rent, you know, like I mean

Well, I think People have taken these these principles to extremes like every freaking religion. Um

there's a time and a place like you for everything like you said like in the meeting with the town and the permitting department and stuff like that.

Yeah.

And my version of radical self-expression is actually creating more space for people to radically self-express. And so, you know, being able to have an official Burning Man event where people are like, "Oh, wait. In this space that everybody's gathered in, I have permission to do do something ridiculous

that may not be accepted in other places. And even though it may not normally be accepted on this the beach of Monterey today,

in this space,

this beach is welcome to fly your freak flag. And we saw so many and that event is still going on. I haven't been in several years, so I can't speak to the integrity of the current event. Um,

Empire or Empire Strikes Back or something.

Empire MP MP y. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and It's um like I remember in 2012, the last year I produced the event, uh the police showed up and they said, "Hey, we got a complaint of somebody peeing on the beach." And I said, "Oh, okay." And he's like, "But I think it was one of the homeless guys, so don't worry. It doesn't affect you or your event."

Okay.

And I said, and of course, at this point, the police are there and people are starting to gather in as they do when the police show up to an event. And I said, "Well, um if I said, "This event is for the whole community. So, if somebody was peeing

um and they're homeless, then that's part of our community, so therefore this is part of the event. Let's continue the conversation."

Yeah.

And you can see the police going, "Oh man, JK, like seriously, you're going to do this?" I'm like, "I absolutely am going to do this."

And so, as the circle is there and everybody's kind of waiting for the police to say something and they're like, you know, you don't need to make this a thing. And I'm like, I'm not making it a thing, but if if you're saying that one of the homeless members of our community did something inappropriate, then I'm here

as the holder of this space to have that conversation. Well, as we're at this tensions building, um this individual walks through the crowd. The crowd kind of parts and this gentleman comes up with a bowed head and he says, um, I'm the one that peed.

Oh, okay.

In front of everybody, like hundreds of people. And so the police take him off and they talk to him for a while and they come back and I'm sorry I get emotional every time I tell the story, but it was such a powerful moment.

And the police said, I said, "Hey, what's going on?" Then they they just they were emotional and they're like, "You tell us what's going on because he treasured what was happening so much that he said, "I don't want my behavior to risk everything else going on here." Now, that sounds like simple to you or I, but at the time, being on the beach was a $500 ticket in Monterey.

Uhhuh.

And he's not a person that can pay a $500 ticket. He loses everything he owns. He goes to jail. His whole life is upended. He loses all his belongings, like

everything. And um he didn't want to risk that.

Yeah. Understandable. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, but he I mean, he didn't want to risk us losing our thing. He was willing to lose everything he had.

Because he's like, "Wait, no, these people are good people. These people hold this space for me. I'm part of this community and I didn't mean to f*** it up."

Um,

did he just like walk up or was he like kind of part of your community before?

No. Yeah, he was walk It's not that he was part of the community. That's what was made event so special is everyone was welcome. So like tons of people that just walked by the homeless that were sleeping on the beach woke up to Burning Man.

Yeah.

Like they like they

That's powerful.

After years of doing it, they were used to they were part of it. Like they would take the recycling like you would see like homeless people dancing with business owners. Like it it was super beautiful. And um later that evening the police came back as we were closing everything up and one of them the one that had been there earlier today had said, "Hey, I want you to know that there's a lot of people and there's a lot of events in Monterey that invite everyone,

but this is the only one that welcomes everyone.

Wow.

And that was like one of the most powerful experiences for me in the Burning Man community of what happens when we risk sharing?

What happen what happens when we risk giving in a way that might not be comfortable? What happens when we stand up and say, "Yes, this is my community and my community is complete with everyone in it.

Um because I don't feel that I need to pre-screen somebody to decide if they are able to participate.

And that's why it's always been important to me to do public events where people the barrier to entry is low to zero. Um why should you have to reach a certain economic strain to feel included or to express yourself or to share your story.

Um, so anyway,

anyone in the like Monterey like city apparatus like at any point ever be like, "Hey Jenny, like you should think about running for office or be be part of like the town planning committee or whatever or like you ever get anything like that?"

Yes. Yes. People have asked me to run for office a number of times. Um,

I have not

Yeah. Well, we'll just leave it at that. Yes, I have been asked many times to run for office. Um it's not in the cards today. We'll we'll see what the future holds, but um yeah, and actually the city of Monterey was so generous, they created a grant program to help pay for the permits

uh for that event because they said it was so valuable to the city, they didn't want um our our crew to have to fund raise.

Oh wow.

They said if you if you can just pay for the insurance, we'll cover the permits.

And so Empire still happens to this day, right? Like

it does. Yep. Um I'm not involved with it anymore. I don't live there and that's you know

let let those folks do it. But yeah,

I think that's it's the one of the best testaments possible really which is it's like oh here you have me haven't been involved for many years but like it still goes on you know it's like you

created and it's still free to the public like Oh yeah.

Yeah. No, I mean it's still I think it's the only ongoing official Burning Man event in the world that's always been free to the public. It's

got no boundaries. There's no

us them delineator like if you're walking by on a Saturday when that happens, go in, go to the costume bucket, grab something, have a good time, sit down for half an hour, meet somebody. Um,

yeah. And and having that unpredictability of the public, it has always been a joy because it you never know what's going to happen.

Yeah. All right. Well, then after after Monterey, I guess you moved it to Seattle, right? I mean, so how long

Actually, I lived in Guatemala. I lived in Guatemala for a year and a half and then I moved to Seattle. Um, in Guatemala, I started getting involved with Burners Without Borders

and, um, yeah, not on the ground in Guatemala. I was doing some like web work for them

and, uh, Carmen Mal and I would regularly connect and talk and I was volunteering with some support that direction and um, ended up moving to Seattle after that and uh, got involved in that community

um, a little bit.

Yeah. But then uh so when did you join the burners without borders like the board like how long is that?

Oh I I'm trying to remember it's got to be maybe five years ago somewhere in there. Five or six years ago. It's it's been a minute. Um

19 something like that.

Somewhere around there. Yeah. I can't quite remember exactly but um

yeah and that's that's been a joy um because it's you know all these experiences like theme camp experience uh holding space, partying, uh, letting people come into your home or your space or your campground or whatever that looks like. And you see all these little experiences and at some point, and maybe it's just the way my brain works, but you have so many experiences, you notice patterns and you start seeing commonalities and then you start seeing where can we apply this learning and scale it. And so that's um, what I'm grateful for with the burners borders advisory board is to be able to take all these observations and not just leave them in Monterey and Seattle and Guatemala or at that party or at that theme camp, but to really, you know, how do we take all this knowledge, not just mine, but how do we gather everybody's from all these experiences and experiments and start building something better? Um, how do we learn from what happened and to inform what's going to happen? Um, and encourage people to like get out of the Um, is it decommodified? Is it commodified? You know, all this the judgment, the usness, the the religiosity of of Burning Man, like pull them out of it and just say, "Hey, like what is it?

What is it each person on this planet needs?"

And guess what? It's all the damn same.

Like the one thing that hasn't changed, like we're in a world of constant change and reaction, but the one thing that has not changed in millennia are human beings and what human beings need.

Yep. that is not going to change. It may change flavor. It may change, you know, how we deliver it. It may look different, but ultimately it's serving the same thing and it's serving the same needs. And so, um, what I feel super grateful for with all this Burning Manedness

is being able to take that learning and that's informed my career. I would not have my career without Burning Man.

So, that kind of gets me to the last question then. Yeah. It's like what is

your shadow? You know, it's How is Burning Man affect like you know like what is what influences it had in your life? But uh

I mean it's interesting just what you're talking about like the early years like with the the the church kind of community and like the early early years you know like the potlucks and the gatherings and the gettogethers and the community you know

I like when I think about Bernie man's like and they're like oh what's it to you like for me like the biggest thing is always like our it's community it's like our connection. It's like you know like I mean it's not just it was all about like just like oh I want to go to the desert and and you know get really high and like get go to some party and just dance all night you know it's like yeah no you know you do that for like one two maybe three times and you just be like okay been there done that you know but I think like when it gets people coming back but I mean

at least

well I don't know like me personally like I was already like dancing and getting high at home so I didn't need to drive to the desert to dance and get high like that that was what was I think the big shift for me but I there was no

I fortunately had been the epicenter fortunately unfortunately been the epicenter for so much social

that I've never had to go anywhere to get my fix.

Mhm.

You know, like the fix comes to me. And so it's that's been a a blessing and a bane, but also it's allowed me to truly use Burning Man for a to as a tool versus like it's fulfilling something.

Oh my goodness, if I don't see this DJ or if I don't go to this party, if I don't see this person or if I don't worship this outfit or whatever the dickens. Um

yeah. I remember I remember once years ago, I don't maybe it's like five years into my Burning Man career. We were costumeuming. We were making costumes one night and somebody looked at me and they said, "Do you think people will like it?" It was something they just made. I said,

"I don't even understand the question. Like, what are you even talking about?" They're like,

I said, "Do you like it?"

And they said, "I yeah, sure. But like, do you think other people will like it?" And I said, "Who cares?" Like, and it was just it was such an interesting divide of like,

"Who gives a damn what other people like like it made me so sad for that individual that this whole time they've been working on their costume they're thinking about will other people like it which ultimately you know let's translate will people accept me.

Yeah. You know the radical inclusion doesn't have like you know sub clauses you know this is like yeah express yourself but you know only if it's acceptable to the community or somebody likes it

only if it's acceptable to the pretty people in the community that you know you want to go party with. And you Oh, you know, I have no idea what was going on in that person's brain. I shouldn't be expression, you know. It's I mean, like we said, like Bernie man's always been sort of this like kind of safe space for for radical expression. You know, it's like you can come out, you let your freak flag fly, you know, do whatever it is that you want to do and and feel free. I mean, like, you know, the the the the nasty looks or, you know, the tisk tisking or, you know, pearl clutching, you know, it's like like ah, dispense with all of that. You know, it's like here you can do what whatever, you know, walk around and just underwear over your pants, you know, or what? I don't know.

Yeah. Well, whatever that looks like for you.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes people

Yeah. And I think sometimes people forget like um radical self-exression looks different in every environment. Um I remember I always use the example of John Boehner who was the speaker of the house when Obama was in office and there was a state of the union speech. I can't remember what year it was.

Um And anybody that's ever been to the Capitol know there's nothing but like bowls of American flag pins everywhere. You can't walk five feet through the Capitol without having a bowl of American flag pins. So when it came to the State of the Union speech, um, everybody's on the stage up there and John Boehner did not have his pin on.

Wow.

Well, yeah. Everybody was like jaw on the ground, right? Like how could he have forgotten? How could this? And it's like I was like, hats off, dude. Like I don't share your political views right now, but I respect the hell out of the fact that you're so not on board with what's being said. You've chosen to self-express in this way.

Maybe he's forgot it.

Oh, maybe he did forget it. But like, I'm sorry. The amount of handlers and people that they have doing their makeup, their outfits, their I mean, those people don't self-dress on those days. Like that's

like every single thing is scripted. And so,

um, I mean, maybe it was an oversight considering how vocally he had been everything that was going on. I I really doubt it was. The man is not an idiot and he'd been doing it for a long time. And it was something I always I was always always respected. And I'm like self-expression, radical self-expression looks very different

in different environments. And it's uh I think it's a challenge to all of us to see when people are radically expressing themselves and honor it even though it doesn't always look like what we would do.

Yeah.

Um and that we is varied. that we can be one person, a million people. Um, I mean, honestly, I think we have a radical self-expression of 70 some odd million people in the United States last week. Um,

or two weeks ago. It's,

you know,

not the kind of self-expression I'm into, but hey, uh,

well, they just made me think,

but they're trying to but they're trying to tell us something. But like that's the thing, people are trying to survival is rarely graceful. I think people also forget that.

And so, so when you combine radical self-expression with the need for survival.

There can be some very awkward um and difficult growth moments.

Well, I'm sure there's there's the right places and times for the different things, right? You know, like like you said, like there's no meday in an emergency, you know, like like uh you know, it's like yeah, I mean perhaps radical self-expression at certain points Britain might need to take a a backseat, you know, if in an emergency or or whatever. But um no, I just don't think the the flag pin kind of made me think of something interesting. It's the

the connection between like radical self-expression and like conformity, you know, because it's like with the flag pin, it's like, oh, it's conformity. Everyone wears it. It's just like, well, I'm not going to wear this. It's just my radical self-expression. And then you smash cut to the playa and you see like a lot of like the same outfits or like the the bejeweled captain's hats or like the goggles, you know, like and it seems like there's so many people like wearing the same furry boots and like that. I mean, like so many people It's like it's almost like a uniform and you're like uh like I mean I guess in one level you could say that's your radical self-expression but is it like radical self-expression from a catalog?

I think it's radical self Amazon shopping but um you know it's people are informed you know they're they're told what to wear by the the media they consume. And that's not a Burning Man thing you know everybody loves saying like Burning Man was so much better when

Yeah.

you know and then then that starts the MAGA movement of of uh freaking Burning Man, you know, like it was all so much better at this one point in time that I specifically remember as a great day. What about the other, you know, 60,000 people that had that day? Was it just as good for them? I don't know.

Um,

you know, I think a lot of people may not remember the early days of Burning Man with such glee. Um,

well, I think it's just changes to, you know, it's just I mean,

of course, the world's changing, the world's evolving. Burning going to reflect that.

Well, it's always been a kind of a churn, right? I mean, from starting in Baker Beach and like first going out to the play and like in in 96 like that was like a big change when like a lot of the oldtimes left and then like everything was burned and all the volunteers went away and then they had to like rebuild from scratch and then like and every few years is always like a group of people who are just like it's not the same as it was before. Maybe every year, I don't know, you know, like

well I mean but that's that's every organization everywhere. Talk to the first Apple employees. You think they don't have a point of view about what Apple turned into? Talk to

like the garage we started in, man.

No, of course not. And and the world isn't what it was. Like I go to the grocery store. The grocery store isn't the same as it was 30 years ago.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like we all have these treasured things. It makes me laugh. Like I remember when Da Punk came out with their their album whatever a few a few decade ago, whatever it is now. Uh and you know all these 40 some odd year olds are like I can't wait. I can't wait for the new Da Punk album. It's gonna be incredible. And then it comes out and everybody's listening to the new Da Punk album at 2:30 in the afternoon while they're trying to get work done. And and then they're like, "Well, this album sucks." And I'm like, "Well, of course it sucks because you weren't doing Ecstasy for the first time at 3:00 in the morning when you first heard Da Punk in the middle of a desert." Okay. Like, you know? Yeah. It's going to be a totally different experience wearing khakis at work listening to Da Punk. Okay. Like that's a totally different experience. Yeah. Da Punk sucks. man. Well, okay, great. Yeah,

so corporate now.

Yeah, exactly. Right.

Yeah.

I think I think Yeah, we forget our influences sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, uh I mean, so what kind of a like effect has Bernie man had on your life? It's like do you I mean because knowing you it's like you're a a force of nature. I mean you're continue going down this p I mean you probably would wound up in similar places like with or without

I I jokingly say um after 20 years in the evangelical community and 20 years at Burning Man, I am a subject matter expert and white people jumping off cliffs. Um and to that point um in my actual career I am now a consultant with um with an expertise in the intersection of leadership, culture and uh communication

and specifically under the banner of change management. Um And I think that's one of the huge gifts of specifically Black Rock City

is um every day I always joke every day a 4-hour window at Burning Man is is a full 24-hour day somewhere else. So if you if you if you smoke a joint with somebody and have a two-hour conversation, that's like having an overnight visit to somebody's house. Like you're bonded, man. Like it is

it's really intense. And so

the rapid iteration of of social engagement, activity, the amount of things happening at once.

It is a bustling metropolis at scale for that one week. And so you can get

I always call it my business development week because I'm like paying attention. I'm learning to see how people react. I'm listening to the conversations. How are these leaders seeing impact in their communities? How are people reacting? Like um and that informs the work I do outside of Burning Man because like I said, humans all need the same thing point blank no matter what change is happening no matter what experience they're having no matter what community they're nesting in um and I have a deep deep heart for inclusion so I also take

learning um from Burning Man and seeing who is the other this year there's always an other there's a everybody has an other and it's it's the or it's it's the new people it's the rich people it's the people not participating The way I'm participating, it's the people they haven't learned yet. It's the people that learned too much. It's It's the angry ones. It's the less angry ones. It's

like the party boys from like Reno or or wherever. Like they would come in for like the weekend. Like they're just drinking like, you know, Bud Light and then they're f, you know, big pickup trucks. Like that was years ago.

Yeah, of course. But like this time it's like the friends of ours that come in for the weekend, those are the cool ones. But the people that came in from LA for the weekend, those are the not cool ones. Those are, you know, it's everybody's always othering somebody that's making it worse.

And And um we've seen so much of that at Burning Man over the years and in the United States and in the globe. Like it's

Well, that's why I gave it those those stickers. You know, I made this here. It's like that was you know, well, for the listeners was that I'm trying to remember what it says now, but it's like uh there is no them. There's only us.

Yes. You know,

those words ring familiar. I wonder who said them first.

And uh Yeah. No, I mean like I I don't think I got a single argument from anybody. Everyone's I mean the best thing was people the best compliment I got were people like Oh, this is going to go in my kid's water bottle. And I was just like, "Oh, yeah." You know?

Yeah. But that's it is true because we all need the same things. Like it's the external stuff that we start creating categories and separations. And that doesn't mean like we all want to camp with a million people. Like that's

to organize. It's okay to organize by interest, but we don't have to other everybody if they don't share our interests or

go ahead. Like no, that doesn't mean that like everyone just automatically without like exception just has to be your best friend, you know? you know, like any random walks up, you know, but it's like, yeah, like you say, there's there's two,

you know,

sides to,

but also like I think I think something we forget is in our immediiacy is history is long.

Um, and I do think sometimes in our I shouldn't just say Bernie man world, but the whole world, we react so quickly to what is happening that we're not looking at the longer path being laid. And um, it is it is interesting. I know I often challenge people that, you know, we have differing viewpoints, thus therefore we must we must not get along. And I'm like, okay, well, I think we're all working towards the same outcome. Like, we all agree that everybody it'd be great if everybody could be

healthy, housed, and fed.

Yeah.

Maybe we just disagree with how to get there. So, as long as you assure me we're working towards the same thing, then I'm not going to worry about where we're sitting right now. Just assure me that we're both working towards the same outcome.

Yeah.

And then we'll focus what we can agree on versus what we disagree on. And at any point when we disagree, we could maybe have a conversation and say, "Hey, how is this getting us to that outcome?"

And then I could see like social media kind of just throwing gas on that fire, you know, where people just

Well, social media is a toilet. We all know that.

Yeah. Like people just kind of snarking stuff out there without like because what you're talking about is like actual real conversations between people, you know, like I mean social media is more just kind of sniping from afar, you know, many times often. I mean, it could be I mean Sometimes there are these good conversations, you know, but uh

yeah,

I don't know. I find like in in IRL, as the kids say these days, you know.

Is that what kids are saying these days?

I know. I like to say it as the dorky dad, you know. It's like,

well, you are a dorky dad.

I know. I show people like the kids, the teenagers like, you see this? This is this is called paper money. This is called this is the IRL money, man. And they're like, oh, you're such a dork. You know, like that's right.

It didn't take fatherhood to make you a dork, though. I just want to be clear about I've known you a lot dork like Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. You are for sure

new levels of strat.

Um

All right.

Yeah. So like Yeah. Any other questions or um

I would also say too actually I think one of the interesting things I am gonna sorry I'm gonna interject one more thing that I would say has given me

and I think what it's also given people around me is when they say, "Oh, burning man is this," or, "You're a burner," which I I hate that word so much. Um, like I always challenge people. I'm like, "Replace the word burner with Christian. Replace the word burning man with church and see how you sound."

Oh, that's a good test. Yeah,

it is a really good task. And um I don't like being defined by other people's behavior. So, when people are like, "Well, burners are dot dot dot." And I'm like, "But Jenny Kay is dot dot dot." We're all unique and individuals that have used this thing to learn, to grow, to experiment in different ways. And I do think one of the great joys is being able to say like most of my client work is is in extremely conservative environments.

I work with um a lot of faith-based individuals

um and faith-based organizations even. And I'm extremely liberal. I'm extremely progressive. I'm extremely authentic when I show up with my clients. And it is a joy way to be able to delineate the difference between values and faith

and to show that hey we all share you may hear Burning Man and have an image of what you see in the media or have been shown well I have I have seen things in the media that represent you that that maybe you're not comfortable with

and so that's a that's a really great share point when I am talking to people of a more conservative nature that are like I don't I don't want to be represented by Donald Trump's mouth,

but I have these other values that fall within this category. And I'm like, you know what? I don't really like being represented by a lot of things being said in the media

about Burning Man. And that's not my heart. That's not how I

um show up in the world. Yeah.

Um and I'm not criticizing how anybody speaks about Burning Man. That's just their experience. And they're speaking authentically to what they know from where they're sitting and the perspective that they have. And that's my job. to be perspective building and to start listening and understanding all those different roles and so

and viewpoints and so I challenge my clients to that too of like hey you know me

and they're like well now I have a different view of this thing because of you and I'm like okay well

maybe everything that we see on the surface isn't what your reaction is maybe there's a deeper story there

and so being an ambassador for my beliefs and my faith as you know I I could go that's a whole another podcast is a conversation about secular faith.

But um my secular faith is very strong in what I believe is possible on this planet and what I believe is possible with individuals and what I believe we can collectively do and share and achieve together.

And when I can speak to that

and say hey this is the tool I've been using to experiment and to strengthen my skills.

How are you using your tool whether that's church your nonprofit organization? your immediate community, your family. Um, how are you using those tools and those communities to create the outcomes that you believe in and that your faith dictates?

Yeah.

Um, so because I have a deep faith in what's possible with humans as much as we disappoint each other.

Yeah.

It's there, you know, it's possible.

So,

yeah. Well, it's interesting just like kind of just sewing up some of these things like your your early like history in the church and then burning man and then now like working with faith-based organizations like it seems to me like the commonality like between all these these different groups is like yeah it's a connection it's a community you know it's like like the paths we take to to get there whether it's the scripture or the 10 principles you know I mean it's like we might take like different roads to get there but then you know and then once like people from different communities kind of get together it's like yeah they see like the surface stuff you know it's like oh you know this is your recipe how to get there it's like oh I disagree with that like once you kind of get to the the the soft nougaty center, you know, like it's like, oh, it's the same.

Well, it's funny you say that. I was on with a client um several weeks ago and all names stricken from the record and they said, you know, I was and this person is um they work for and they work for a church um and they have a a high level of responsibility in this organization and They said, "You know, I'm listening to this podcast. I think you'd really like it. I mean, I know you don't have a lot of time, so I'll just" and it was great because we didn't have much time to talk. They're like, "Summary, pretty much all religions are the same." And I and I was like, you know, they like kind of like hush in. I know, right? Yeah. It was great, especially considering this person's specific faith and where they work. And it was sort of like this, don't tell the others. And I said, "Yeah, it is." I said, when you start learning about the historical origins of all these religions and they and then what was the most beautiful part of that that was the funny part of the conversation but the part that really touched me um after working with this individual for a year and a half on a near-weekly basis they said you know I've realized that it isn't for me to interpret somebody else's faith through their culture

they said God God can figure that out

I don't need to judge that and don't maybe need to go decide that their way of worshiping needs to be the same as mine. And

wow,

this is a very um very clear differentiator maybe from their

you probably wouldn't want to say it too loud in their in in their own

Exactly. It may kind of blow up some of the formulas that this this group has been drawing on. And it was really sweet that this person had shifted from like

go hotel on the mountain to like, hey, maybe the God I believe in has enough knowledge, has more knowledge than I do. And it was this um and you know, and everybody everybody has their own faith or not faith or faith and lack of faith, I don't know what you call it, but it was it was pretty cool for um us to be sitting in this space of like recognizing shared values and realizing that faith is what anchors people to the organization, but the values can be the same. Yeah.

Yeah.

And it is. We're all connected. We're all sharing the same things. We all have the same needs.

I just hope some like in these

kind of courage troubling times, whether it's politically or financially or whatever, you know, like that people kind of remember these points, you know, it's just like, you know, there is a community and it's like and and like what is like important, you know, and like about like the the experience of of Burning Man, you know, it's it's like going on social media and fighting with other people. or like you know people like you know fighting with a stranger you know like it's like what what's really important here you know.

Yeah. Um not a lot of things are really that important. Um

but like what we're talking about it's just like you know these connections like even just me and you. It's like we met in 2003 and like we've been like best friends for like all these years

you know. Yeah. Here we are some odd years later.

No I know. And then like I think about that day that we met um and who all was in that circle that day and you know there's the partner that I built, you know, a theme camp with and all these parties and all this experimentation and, you know, if they hadn't had such a good ability to put a playlist together and do a lighting scheme, would I have actually had the career I have today without them being able to hold that space? You know, like you think about these things. I think about um somebody I met that day that,

you know, I ended up seeing being off and on for a few years that you know they really tested my strength around like how I view substances and addiction and what that can do to uh friendships and community and and you know they informed a lot of my viewpoints on that. Somebody else that was in that circle that day um they ended up becoming a very destructive force in my life and

and through that it's easy to identify the horrible things they did in my life, but I'm not the person I'm I'm a much stronger person for having had that person breeze through my life. Um I wouldn't choose it again, but um I'm a much stronger and more resilient person because of those actions.

Um and then yourself was in that circle that day and and you ushering me, seeing me and believing in the connection and saying, "Hey, you know what? I see how people respond to you. I see what you're already organizing. What if we connected you to something bigger and your push and enthusiasm? I don't know where I would have gone if I'd not tapped into the regional network.

Maybe I would have petered out after a few years because I mean for me Bernie man's boring as hell if I'm not working or doing something like there's only so many times you can just go to the party.

Um

we're never there for the party. Yes.

Yeah. We're some of the rare few people who like go to the party to work the party, you know? I mean I know

plenty of people who are just like I'm not here. work, you know, I'm just like, uh, okay. You know,

I don't know. I'm I'm tempted to go back, um, as a tourist next year. I'm tinkering with I'm tinkering with tourism. Uh,

so outfit's going to be a tourist slash crafty kind of.

I was just going to body paint myself in silver, cover myself in glitter, and then just see who lets me sit on their their camp furniture, you know?

No, I'm not. I couldn't even imagine. Um,

yeah. I don't I don't even know what tourism looks like anymore. I don't I have no idea. Um so yeah, that's I'm tinkering with being a tourist, but it it may be a little harder harder to tourist than I realize.

Well, every year is an evolution, right?

It is. Yeah. And um and what that looks like and I I do think the pandemic was a interesting opportunity for people to sort of redefine it on their own terms and what does Burning Man look like without the structure of the event.

Yeah.

And uh

Yeah. It was really cool to see all these different evaluations of what people are investing in and how they're choosing to I don't want to say choose to burn, but like choose to self-express like when they don't have the thing to plan for, how does that show up in their everyday lives? And I think there was an interesting

kind of separation that we haven't talked about of people that that desperately needed the structure of the event. And even though it's fun, like I love Burning Man, don't get me wrong, like it is a great time. Um, and it's a totally different experience of, hey, we're going to go to a campground and and do the thing for 3 days or what have you. So, um,

but yeah, like people to reinterpret it and, uh, I think that was it's cool and I think the more we can encourage that and encourage people to self-organize and to figure out what Burning Man means for them independently or what self-expression and connection more importantly than the brand of Burning Man. What does connection mean for them? What does gathering mean? What does care mean?

Yeah. It's like I was telling a a guy on the bus when I rode back like from Bernie man this year. I think it was his first time out there and he was all like, "Do you think Bernie man's going to happen again?" And I was like I was like, "Dude, like Bernie man has like this incredible momentum." Like who's it? Larry Harvey or somebody said it's like it's like a large like like oil tanker or or ship. It's like it doesn't turn very quickly, you know? Like uh I mean Bernie man will continue on in some manner or fashion, you know, irregardless of, you know,

the the current winds that blow.

Well, yeah, because before Burning Man existed, people were getting together and self-expressing.

Yeah.

Burning Man didn't invent like, yeah,

Burning Man does not define gathering and

gathering will happen long after Burning Man is gone. So, um,

one can say, you know, we've probably been gathering for millions of years, you know, around fire. Yeah, exactly. Um,

like I said, uh, what people need has never changed and it never will change.

Yeah.

Um,

all right. Well, um,

yeah.

Anything else or

I I am just going to pray to you edit this. That's all.

Oh, no editing at all. No, no, that's

I know that's the problem. And then you caught me saying the word pray online, which I don't anyway. So, that's that's great. Yeah, I'm gonna pray to Andy Kuna. That's

She means pray. P R E Y. She wants to hunt down. failed me. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Correct. Um

All right. Well,

all right, my my dear friend. Um looking forward to connecting.

Yeah, we'll connect real soon.

We will. All right. Thank you. Thank you for doing this and holding this space. Um

Oh, yeah. My pleasure.

I really appreciate this.

Uh and hope I didn't sound like too much of a maniac.

No, never.

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, rate, and review it on Apple Podcasts. It just helps to get this scene. Please tell a friend and help to spread the word. If there's enough support, we can do a lot more of these shows and publish more shows per month. If you would like to contact us about being a guest, what you think about the show or whatever, please send an email to Shadow of the Manodcast, that's all one word, atgmail.com. You can also follow Shadow of the Man on social media on Facebook, Instagram, X, and YouTube. The links for the These pages are all available on the front page of shadowoftheman, all one word.com. See you next month for a new episode of the shadow of the man. 

Thank you for listening to this latest show. We have to make another month. We already have One in the can. Very soon you'll be listening to a new shadow of a man.