EP 9 Tony "Coyote" Perez

In this episode we speak with Tony “Coyote” Perez, a foundational member of Burning Man’s Department of Public Works (DPW). The conversation serves as a historical retrospective, detailing Coyote’s evolution from a disillusioned San Francisco musician to the City Superintendent responsible for designing the Black Rock City grid. Central to the narrative is the pivotal transition in 1996, when the event shifted from an anarchic gathering to a more organized society necessitated by safety concerns and population growth. Coyote emphasizes the enduring power of community, explaining how the "desert carny" lifestyle provides a profound sense of purpose through the creation and dissolution of a temporary city. Ultimately, the text highlights the hero’s journey of finding self-validation in the "silent provision of possibilities" while celebrating the unique creative spirit that continues to define the Burning Man culture.

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Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to The Shadow of the Man. I'm your host host Andi. My goodness, that Andi. Today's guest is the one and only Coyote or Tony Perez. Welcome.

Thank you so much for having me on your show.

All right, so I do have some listeners who've like never been to Burning Man or don't know much about Burning Man. So, you know the concept of the elevator pitch, right? It's like you're going up 10 stories. It's just like you have a couple floors to explain like what your Burning Man history. It's like I mean, I know you have a a long and and continuing history, but it's like, you know, in about 20 seconds, you know, how would you relate your Britain history?

One of the shortest pitches I did was in the back of a lift. I've done it back of the lift, a elevator for certain. I think I did it once from when I was in handcuffs in the back of a car. I had to do the elevator pitch. Uh, so what is the elevator pitch of what is Burning Man?

Oh, what are what is your experience in Burning Man? Who are you?

I I am the city superintendent of Black Rock City. I've been working with it since 96. Uh uh back then we really didn't have a department of public works. We were just some grunts that got out there and that were picking up the work. But 98 we decided that uh that we really needed to make an apartment out of it so we could track our jobs and actually create a budget and the spreadsheets showed up and act and it became an actual department which was started by Will Roger, Flynn Maldi and Rod Garrett and myself

and so in '98 we formed the department of public works. So I've pretty much been working to build Black Rock City ever since the the 90 90 the 1900s as my son say dad doing it since the 1900s

back when it was black and white. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Back be back before we had film for the cameras. Anyway, uh so uh very quickly I became uh the city superintendent which is in charge of actually setting up the city grid. And if somebody still gives me the blank stare at that point I say we're the carnese.

Yeah. We're we're the desert carnies. We're the ones that are the first ones there, the last ones off. We set it up. We hunker down for that crazy weird week called Burning Man. And then for the next three, four to five weeks after that, we tear it all down, put it in containers, send it out to our ranch, put it to bed, and wake it up again in the spring.

Oh, awesome. Great. So, so where does it all begin? Where's where does uh little little Tony like grow up? Where you born? Where you from? What's your

Oh, I was born in Mexico. But I was uh raised by my Irish mom in Detroit.

Oh.

And uh with uh with a lot of sisters. My my parents separated really early on. And so uh I don't have very much ties with my uh with with my Mexican side of my heritage. Uh and we grew up in Detroit and then uh came out I I spent my uh my high school years in Traverse City, Michigan. Moved down to Calamazoo. I'm a Michigander.

Okay.

And we grew up in in a situation where we never were really allowed to leave anywhere to go any place. The only state line I'd ever crossed was Ohio.

And so when I uh became when I was 20 years old, I hopped on a motorcycle and went to I wanted to bartend my way across the country of which I got.

And I ended up in San Francisco in 79. And my dreams was to be a musician, which I accomplished those dreams. I traveled down the road with the band, pretty successful one for

Oh, I was on the road for about uh 12 12 years or so, maybe 15, it's hard to remember. Then I was a house band in North Beach for another eight years. So I was a successful musician.

What did you play?

Uh six singer and saxophone. I still have a band. And uh that's uh that's it was right around after in my like 15th years of professional musicianship is where I stumbled upon uh Burning Man.

Ah.

So it it it's essentially u uh it was a hero's journey. Yeah,

but I I was living my dream uh traveling around the country as a musician and uh but that even that can get pretty pretty old and I my my career had sort of plateaued.

Okay.

Uh when I stumbled on Burning Man, which is a whole different thing that happened there.

So was it like mid 90s or so? So were you living in San Francisco at that point or

Yeah, I've been when I moved to San Francisco in 1979, I was 20 and I just never left. I'd found

found my home. I I never needed to find a different town. It's still my town. I live I'm broadcasting right now from the lower hate district of San Francisco. I've been here since 95.

Okay.

I'm here with my wife and children who my both my kids have no intention of leaving San Francisco either.

Yeah. Yeah. And I moved there like I told you earlier like was it 94 2001? Like my brother still lives there. I still come back and like visit like

Oh yeah. It's like

it's getting a lot of bad publicity. Politics is starting to trash it a lot. But it's still an amazing town. It's it's a town of thinkers and a lot of possibilities, open mind. We like I've said about Bernie man, we create our own boxes to think outside of.

Yeah, exactly.

So, San Francisco, I it's not it's really not a very large surprise that an event like Burning Man would have been spawned out of a city like San Francisco.

I always said that Bernie man was the runaway teenager of San Francisco.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So then, uh Uh, so then so what then what brings you to Burning Man? Because I remember in your book you had a friend. So did your your friend like went to Burning Man before and was like, "Hey, come on out."

Yeah, I uh I made friends as soon as I moved into the lower hat 95 and uh one of the friends I made was uh this this guy that lived across the street. His name was Jason Nurelli, who actually I just was talking to him this afternoon. We still both live in the lower eight.

Wow.

And it's been almost 30 years.

Wow.

And he hasn't changed much. And uh neither have I we still got the same core just 30 years old

but Jason was across the street and he was the he was the light in my wilderness because at that point my music career had pretty much plateaued and I was kind of in a mental rut creative purgatory is what I call it in the book where just playing the same stuff every night and just uh really having an existential talk with myself of where is this all going and it's not the first time people have gone to the desert to to rearrange their thoughts you know That's why gurus have notoriously gone to the desert and sat on top of mountain tops and so on.

Mhm.

And Jason, like most people that I've talked to, uh, they didn't decide to go to Bernie man. They were told to go to Burning Man.

And that's what Jason had said to me. Of course, back then Bernie man was a different it had the same core but different values. I think you were there in 96.

Yeah. Well, I think 96 was kind of what was definitely one of the transitionary kind of periods. I for me I kind of break it down to like like the Baker Beach was like 86 to like 90 or so, right? And then

Yeah. Yeah. And then like 90 to 96 like I was calling those kind of almost like the cacophony years. It seemed like I mean like 96 was the first time I went but you know just from the history that I read it was like you know it just started out as like with like Desert Sight Works and uh you know there there were some other groups and like a cacophony and then like they invited Larry to bring like man out there. So then like everybody kind of all kind of grew together and even as this whole ethos nowadays like the the youngsters are all you know like oh the 10 principles you know it was like Larry went to the mountain and forged them in stone after talking to like you know the the great burning man in the sky. It was like actually all of those different principles kind of just

grew up like leads or whatever you know like as time went by you know there was remember the whole no spectators thing. I mean, leave no trace like participate.

Yeah. If there's an elevator pitch type of thing when it comes to the principles is is people really do sort of equate them to the commandments and they're nothing of the kind. What where they came from was uh Larry and and company uh wanted to know why Burning Man was becoming so popular so quickly and they wanted to know what was it that was bringing people back. And so they were trying to identify the behaviors that we were already encompassing. Mhm.

And that's where the 10 principles came from.

Yeah.

So one they're not directives. They're just uh recogn and and if you read look into the principles some of them do conflict. You know it's not a perfect

not a perfect thing. You know they're in they're in compet they're in conflict with it just a little bit you know and it creates a dynamic tension that keeps the engine running.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean also I think it was like when the regional network was kind of nent and young it was like 2003, 2004 or something when they were like, "Oh, we need to kind of put out like a, you know, a set of principles, you know, cuz yeah, like you said, like all of these ideas were kind of floating around like Larry, like you know, like write down some things like I mean, and it's funny cuz he came like I have nine principles like make it 10, you know, and that's like, yeah, that's where it was immediiacy came from. I remember reading it at first and I was like, huh? Like

I always think of the Mel Brook scene. When Moses comes back, I have 15. Then he drops one of the temp. I have ten commandments.

Those other five are really good, but never mind.

So Jason put me in his car or I I he he put himself in my car and we buzzed out there, which is the opening scenes of this book that I finally a book

and it it was it was a whirlwind for sure.

I mean, no one's going to see the video, but yeah,

there it is. Yeah, learn.

But uh the the funny thing about it Hold on before I just want to let all the the listeners know that uh Tony has written an awesome amazing book. It's called Built to Burn: Tales of the Desert Carney of Burning Man. I mean, I got mine on Amazon. I guess you can get get it from like anywhere.

Yeah. Barnes & Noble, uh any other book outlets. Uh just get online and Google.

So, does Burning Man actually is the Burning Man project actually the publisher?

Yes.

Oh, okay. So, anyway, not to digress on your story. So, you guys get in the car in San Francisco Well, apparently you don't like pack a lot of stuff.

Well, the thing is is uh is I think that nowadays people can be really be ultra prepared when they go out there. They they know a lot what to expect, but Jason did. He didn't give me any any warning. We just hopped in the car and went and it it was a scene right out of a Hunter Thompson book because it was drug fueled and we'd been up for a while and we were out on artificial stimulants and and I'd been awake for two days and so what I was driving into and u now I've been at it 30 years and I'm the OG out there really. Uh I'm I'm I'm the grandfather gray beard that uh is the desert the desert fox that knows how to survive out in the desert. So people don't believe how unprepared I was.

Oh yeah.

I didn't even bring water, you know.

Well, that was incredible cuz I read the book you were just like, "Oh, like your your your friend like took the time to like find a compass,

you know?" But

that's all he had was a compass.

Yeah. But it's Because like my experience with me and my brother was like the exact opposite, you know. It's like we we had like a tiny little like VW GTI and at the last minute like our friend Sharon was like it's like it's like Bernie band's brilliant. You guys should go. You know, we're like oh okay. Like again we were kind of told to go. And he's like you guys you'd love it. You should go. And then at the last second she's like oh can you bring my boyfriend Almond who's like a a DJ and we're like okay. And so

yeah it's like hop in. Yeah. And so we bought food. And we we got I think it was like that 11 by7 like just photocopy of like the survival guide and like I think we just kind of like skimmed through it and we're just like yeah food water whatever you know is like okay directions okay that's where it is looks like you know and then we just go and so then remember we we after getting off the black top we hit the playa and uh there was like the little booth and there's somewhere they were like uh where do we buy the ticket and they're like you see that line of cars or like you got your compass like pointed at this heading and go that way. We're just like, uh, yeah.

You know, and there was just like this huge just blew of dust cuz everyone was just just go as fast as possible.

I was 120 miles an hour when I first went to Burning Man.

Yeah, I think we did. We hadund I was hitting 120.

Oh, yeah. We were like fully loaded. I mean, we actually had stopped. We picked up like firewood and so Almond was kind of buried in firewood in the backseat of the car. Like I had like a a styrofoam cooler on my left. have like real coolers, you know. So then it was so dusty we and we had no idea like where we're going, you know? So my brother was like, "Oh, I'll just kind of go like outside of the line of cars and we'll just kind of follow the line of cars." But like

everybody had that idea. So like everyone was just taking off in all these directions, you know? So we just were like, "Let's just hit for daylight and then just keep going.

Let's keep going." And boy, a lot of people

and we got lost.

That is essentially why the Rangers were formed. Yeah.

To actually go out and get all the little doggies and and and corral them back in.

Yeah.

Cuz everybody was they were going all over hell.

Yeah. So then I get there. I think it was like Saturday, right? And so we eventually it was this whole all these mishaps and we fin eventually find it and then we kind of camp. We find our friends in camp. But I think it was like Saturday, Saturday night. And then our friend was like, "Oh, you should go to like the rave camp that was like a couple miles away." And so we would bring like a small bottle of water you know, maybe a little flashlight and all these cars zooming

at night. They're trying to get to the reef camp at night and they got lost. You get lost easily.

Yeah. Yeah. So then it was like the next day we come back and I was just, you know, or you know, it was like dawn and we're coming back and it was like Sunday and I was just like we're like this place is crazy. It's like it's just it smells like smoke like all the time. Like everything's burning. Like people are burning like polyester couches and

Yeah, it's a different it was a different field for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, it was it was like this is a scene out of Dante's Inferno. This is crazy. Like we almost died. We got to come again, you know.

Yeah. So, yeah, I have we got we went out there on Jason's he had been involved with it for a couple years prior because Jason was a a graffiti artist in city and just a general artist in general. It's still a very very

And one of his uh one of his things that he would do is a lot of body painting.

And uh Will will Roger and Crimson Rose, who are still part of the LLC and part of the board of the Burning Man.

Mhm.

They're two of the founders and uh he was they would do these fire acts uh where Crimson would dance with fire and and Will actually blew fire and so they'd play with fire.

Mhm.

And uh they would do it with Jason's body paint

which was very tribal looking. It was really beautiful stuff.

And so the he he was being asked to come back to do that function for them and be part of the camp. And at the same time, if we went like four days early, three days early, which back then was way early. Now we go 10 week, you know, eight weeks early.

Yeah, early was like Wednesday or something.

Yeah, there's people there year round now, but back then if you had four days earlier, you were you were the first ones out there because they need help setting it up. I said he said, "Let's go out and help them set it up.

Then we'll they'll all be camped out and we'll have we'll be set up and ready to go by the time the actual event starts. And so we went out early and we were camping with Will and Crimson and and also camping with Larry Harvey and the founders.

Mhm.

So, uh, it was called Checkpoint Salon back then. And so my first Byron Man, I was already camping with Will and Crimson, who I still camp with to this day at first camp. I never broke that tradition. And so we we uh showed up working, but if you read the start of the book, it didn't uh start out all that well.

It's an excellent book, listeners, you gotten by. It's an amazing story.

Well, to Yeah, I uh I overdosed

but

and dehydrated and didn't sleep for two days.

I sprung back and built the prominade by myself and that was my first actual task of Burman is building that goddamn proomenade with

spires up which I I still uh supervised that function of the city.

And then like you you in let's see so was it flash that gave you like the nasin or or something? Now, Flash is that's how I met him. I still am very close friends with Flash. Uh we're still out there. He uh he actually comes out there early as like I do.

Uhhuh.

And he uh rents a lot of trailers. He owns a lot of trailers and and uh he's sort of like he he takes pride he calls himself the slum lord of of black. I mean, his trailers aren't the nicest nicest, but they're functional good trailers.

Yeah. No, my friend, you know, Jenny K.

Uh Jenny Kane K. Anyway, she was the last uh episode. Uh

but she's a good friend of mine, but um she she every year we're actually at the um

uh Elsewhere,

you know, in like my first camp this year.

Uh uh there I'm I'm not familiar.

Yeah. But no, Elsewhere was

Elsewhere. Yes. Okay. I know what you're talking about.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, she has one of Flash's trailers. Yeah. I spent a lot of time.

It's It's not It's It's very artsy.

Yeah. He's got a few. Anyway, Flash and I are still pretty close friends.

Uhu.

We It's a point now where we we get a lot of laughs out of out of the old days.

Oh yeah.

Flash gave me Nasin and saved my life.

Yeah. Um. Wow. Yeah. So that Okay. So that's like 96 your first year. Uh

and then after

it came right back in 97.

So because in 96 like we're saying like that was kind of like a transition year. Uh I mean there's a number of things happened. Uh was it Fury who who died, passed away? It was a tragic accident.

Yeah. We we had we had fatalities on our belt.

Yeah.

Yeah. It It's still a little unclear as to what actually came down. All we do know is that we had to change things. We couldn't go on like it was.

Well, it had to become like

professionalized, right? I mean,

well, there's certain things happened all at the same time. 96 really did fall apart in a lot of ways, but it was essentially uh part of the hero's journey. You have to make bad choices and collapse and then rise from ashes as as the story goes. But what uh the biggest thing was we had gone from 4,000 people in 95 to 8,000 people in 96.

Mhm.

Population doubled. And the original Bernie man, people think the Bernie man was uh started by like a hippie thing, like a rainbow gathering, but it's really nothing of a sort. It was

Yeah.

anarchists. It was people with guns. It was people that were rowdy that just wanted to live, you know, without without any scrutiny over them.

And they had they're all real clever people finding ways to blow things up safely. And so they were playing a dangerous game, but they were doing it uh smart. They were some of the uh safest, most dangerous people I'd ever met, if that makes any sense.

Yeah.

You know,

but they were. And so uh word got out that there was a lot of wildness going out and they were doing crazy things with fire. Flamethrowers for instance and large explosions and lighting large or very large things on fire

and uh people are attracted to that.

Oh yeah.

So the next year came out and 4,000 extra people showed up that also wanted to play that dangerous game and things got too big and toppled.

Let's throw propane cylinders in the bonfire.

So So We couldn't go on like that. And there's an actual scene in the book where where uh I was camping with the the organizers of the camp.

Mhm.

And it was the morning after and I sort of crept in and and joined the circle. They didn't even know I was there, but they were saying that things have come to a crisis. And half of the people said that's it. It's no more Burning Man. We can't we can't continue doing this thing. People are getting hurt. This is this is ridiculous. But then there's other people who are saying well actually we've built a pretty damn good community. And things were fine until burn night. And the community uh was the one that was wanted to go forward living by these by these principles of modification and civic responsibility and all these things that were were budding

and said, "Well, we just need to reel it in somehow." And that was the first time the word the word came out that we were actually responsible for for the safety of other people,

which is which is sort of the definition of a city. And uh it's so things really became there a civic responsibility showed up and so there's a lot of like there was people that that were from the beginning with Bernie man that said well that's not what this has ever been about. This was been about exactly the opposite. So I'm out of here. We said well wait a minute let's if we just reel it in somehow then we can continue on building this really creative maker community. And so that's what happened. and we had to reel it in. And that's the first time something like offense shows up. And it really shows what offense really does to a society. And people were going, "A fence? Are you kidding me? This is never what we wanted. We wanted to be in our cars and just going, you know, into the openness without any restraint at all. Offense is is fencing us in." And so the fence changed everything. And uh but we had to and then we had to say no more no more weapons. you know, we we have to reel the guns in.

Obvious reasons. And also the biggest one was we couldn't just drive around like crazy anymore. We we had to get out of our vehicles and uh make it just art cars, which was that was a lot of heartburn on that one. But we were

also a lot more interactive, you know, I mean.

Yeah.

And then the final thing is that's where where my job comes in is we had to build an actual city grid, actual roads and addresses.

Yeah. Cuz I remember 96 it was It was just one circle road stretched to

infinity. It was just Yeah, it was like everywhere. Yeah.

Exploded out from there. But we had to have uh roads and that was for emergency response. Quite frankly, if someone's camp's on fire, we had to get some

We have to have an address out, you know.

Yeah. If you say that we have an emergency, you have to tell them like where

Yeah. We have to tell them where. So, we came up with City Grid and people thought that was way too organized, but the opposite sort of happened is because it gave the city capillaries and once it had capillaries then

blood flow creativity was able to flow a lot more. It was sensible and so grew up a little bit.

Were there like previous to 97 like 96 and earlier like

was was there like a permit that the BLM would give or or was there any kind of like uh

Yes, there was.

What was the organization like before that? Like was that kind of

Yeah, that was a different that's a different interview. Uh cuz I was always out in the desert.

Uhhuh.

And and it was uh the the LLC's that were being formed in San Francisco were the ones that were dealing with that that side of Burning Man, which is an equally as fascinating story.

Yeah. But I always kind of thought that's kind of started in 96 or something or was it

Mgram would be the person to interview on this one because it was uh the first time that we actually pulled a permit and then we I what I remember is that a LLC was formed that was only lasted a year and every year they they they started a new LLC and then eventually they just made an LLC and now we're a non we're a nonprofit now that has an LLC under its umbrella.

Yeah.

So the the business side of it grew and the whole time it was permits for with BLM, the Bureau of Land Management and also with Persing County.

So the the whole story of law enforcement and the the BLM story still continues on. We finally have ourselves on pretty solid footing with them. Uh we're well where they're they're a windfall for them. We're the largest usage land usage per p permit ever uh you know given given out and still will be.

Oh yeah.

Even with these changing of tides that are going on in the nation right now, I think Bernie man will survive because of the the the uh economy that it generates.

I wonder like if you look at like the pure of land management, you know, know like their budget, you know, the line item of like income.

Yeah. Right.

Like all of the various places and this and that because I'm sure they're government agency. They probably don't make a huge amount of income, you know.

But what would Bernie man's percentage of this income be, you know, like

that's not my uh

I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They would notice it if we were gone.

Uh yeah. Yeah. They might make some complaints, but then when you're gone, it's like Oh, hey.

Well, there there's another person who would notice people that would notice it is Reno.

And uh we've had we've had uh some struggles with the with the Bureau of Land Management. That's that's m matter of public record. We all know that we've our tiffs.

Mhm.

And uh there was one time that things got started to boil over and the the mayor of Reno actually stepped into the 4

really

and uh and said, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, what's going on here?" You know, Bernie man's they've always been right with us and Mhm.

And uh you know we we it's there's quite a boost that happens to our economy every year when people are you know going to Trader Joe's.

Yeah. Yeah. Everywhere along the way like Empire.

Besides we we we've really brought a lot of art to the city. We've really uh you know we've made a lot of awareness. We're building a community really and it doesn't really know any boundaries. So the even back then there was a there was a struggle going on but the struggle was more with the the the local sheriff than it was with Bureau of Land Management

because in 97 it moved to the Walapai Playa, right? And that was kind of was that over the county line or something?

Yes. It was in it was in Wow County then.

Yeah. So it's like a different law enforcement you guys were dealing with.

The jurisdiction had changed and so that that made 97 a very peculiar oneoff year that uh that's also that's the second part of this book that

Yeah.

Oh yeah. I just love I got to say my one of my favorite scenes in your book was when um uh what was it? They had to get the sheriff to sign off on something and he and he was like you were refusing and they finally came around like okay okay I'm finally going to sit down and then like you know like Will Rogers there and I don't know what he was like what a tutu or something or or

a gastring and a silver hard hat that's all they had on Crimson's wearing whatever and then it was uh the um it was the Aesthetic Meat Foundation I I remember those guys like

yeah they didn't come back they've never been back Wow.

Yeah. But just viewers listeners, you you have to read the book for this one scene. I'm not gonna give it away, but like that was awesome. But he throws his hat.

Saw this guy. He lost he lost his cool out and the main Foundation showed up because they saw the helicopter land and so they knew the sheriff was

Oh, so that was intentional.

Oh, absolutely. It was intentional.

Wow. Wow.

I mean, who didn't see the helicopter? A helicopter landed. I mean, blowing everything on her blowing everybody's tents away.

Yeah. So, okay. So, for the listeners who might not have uh been around at that time or people never been to Burning Man, the Aesthetic Meat Foundation, what I remember like they were like, well, the story was there were a group of like what vegans or vegetarians or something. And so,

I don't know the backstory

like that's what I heard. And then they're like, oh, they were protesting like like like people eating meat. So, uh they would they brought like all of this like these animal carcasses and and blood and endrail They would like put them on these like gothic like spikes and and they would just like spew blood just like on the plot.

Yeah. Blasting blasting goth music and

Yeah.

And then

you know they were frightening people.

And then they were doing the the suspension thing. People who don't know suspension it's like when you put hooks through your skin and you're suspended by that you know whether it's like

they actually for those who do know Bernie man and know of the Thunderdome uh who and those who don't they there's an actual Mad Max thunderdome that comes out every year. It's been they're they're in their getting into their third decade out there and uh they hang from harnesses and have bouts. Well, the aesthetic meets

just like the movie. Yeah.

Just like the movie. Yeah. Uh they went in there just that one year and they were hanging from their piercings in the Thunderdome.

In the Thunderdome.

In the Thunderdome. And people don't believe me when I say that. But it was true. And those guys were hardcore. Yeah. Yeah. So the the uh getting back to our relationship with the sheriff in 97 we did have a usage permit and it was signed the day of the burn.

Ah that's how iffy things were because uh right now people are saying well things are they're uncertain. Our c our future is uncertain and they're going it's always been uncertain. There's we've always been on shaky ground because That's what happens when you're forging into new territories is and and creating a communal effort that's becoming global. It's going to be on shaky ground. Yeah. And then like the sheriff sees the box office, right? Like all the money. And then I remember I specifically remember this scene like being there like Larry on some soap box be like if you just give us like $500 uh like you get a ticket to Burn Man for life. And I remember looking at my pockets I was like I was like I can't afford $500 right now.

Those people that did still got that we we are holding that.

I have at least two friends like my friend Curt I don't know if you go Curtis Coleman uh another um I think George Pap he was actually my first guest in this like I think like he is like oh yeah I got my ticket every year they keep send to this day like they keep sending me a ticket.

I was like what a great investment that 500 bucks would have been you know like

you know he was standing on a hay bale hay bale. Yeah. Well the man was on the hay bale back there. It was like with band was on

it was all on hay bales. What a mess. We don't do that anymore.

Yeah. Well, it's trial and error. You know, you learn, you know. Well, it's like what I was talking to Andy Grace about this like in 96 like somebody described it as they said uh the volunteers burned down everything and all left and then you know had to kind of build a new organization or kind of go in a more professional like direction.

We didn't know if we there was going to be another year uh from year here. It was definitely I when when Will called me for 97, I was shocked. I said, "Really? It's still going." I said, "Yeah, yeah, you did a lot of good work out there. Um, we got to build up this ranch so we can house law enforcement. Uh, we need some hands to clear out these houses and maybe you want to do some work this weekend." And I said, "Sure, I'll come out."

So, you went up like from San Francisco up there for a couple of weekends like over the summer or something.

Yeah, just uh just like I said, I my my music career was boring me to tears and so this whole new thing. Man, I'd found a posi. I found some cool people that I wanted to hang out with. Man, these people were thinkers and movers and shakers and dreamers and, you know, they they had possibilities in their mind and we could do this and we could do that. And it just woke my spirit. I I had all these rusted gears in my brain that were like just chewing on this new thing to do.

Yeah.

Every year it's it still challenges me every year where we have to constantly pivot and when we're hiring people and we're doing interviews for management positions. That's one of my things is how how good are you at pivoting? How good are you uh with solving problems uh in the moment and uh we always called ourselves we were field driven solution managers,

you know, where we we had to we had to solve things out in the field.

It's curve balls all the time everywhere. And that will always be the case because where we are when in building it, we're in a very everything breaks down. Imagine a world where not even duct tape works. But Bernie made to me like I mean to this day especially in the early days was yeah like I don't know like innovators but like I I just remember um God what was the the term was like when you find stuff was like obtanium

Michael you he coined that one.

Yeah. But just I would was always blown away by like people taking ordinary objects and then combining them and surprising ways and coming up with just unbelievable things and sometimes just just junk.

Yeah.

You know, but it's just kind of this mentality of people. It's like Yeah. It's like you're going into the desert or something breaks in your car. It's just like, well, I got some like this and that together. We can get off

make it work.

That's why that's why this last year when we had the mudstorm, it was the equalizer.

Yeah.

Rockar superstars trudging through through the mud and riding back pickup truck like like Yeah. going to the local bar and having a shot in a beer. Is that Chris Rock sitting at the bar? Yeah, it is. As a matter fact, we were calling it if you walk to the shore, you were Chris Rocking it to the shore.

But he wasn't alone, right? Did he have um God, who was in the pickup truck with him? Um

Oh, uh

Diplo.

Diplo. Oh, well, he won't let you forget it either, but they had an adventure.

They out of their comfort zone. By God,

and they had to solve their problem in real time.

I mean, do people really think that like, you know, oh my god, these rains are going to go on for two weeks and we're going to run out of food.

They were flooded for good,

you know, and it was and and and I understand that if you don't if you if you don't know the plya and you're you're wake up and you're in a lake, You can I can see some people hitting the panic button on that one. I got to get home, you know.

Yeah.

Those who know uh is that that lake is only uh 48 hours at the tops. It'll it's going to go away. And so it was up to us to just we were became town criers just going up and down roads and in streets saying everything just stay put. You know, there's plenty of food here. There are all the supplies you need. If you run out of food, your neighbor has a chili bar that that is

Yeah.

has 20 cases of hot dogs sitting in a in their coolers.

Yeah.

Food all around you.

Well, that's one of the things about Burning Man is, you know, they say, "Oh, bring everything you need to survive, you know, but it's like everybody brings like way too much, you know?"

Oh my god. It's It's the craziest potluck dinner you've ever been to in your life.

Yeah.

I mean, every year in the play, like towards the end of the week, you know, by like Friday, Saturday, people are just like,

"You want some of this? You want some?" They're just handing you stuff, you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's uh some guys used to come out. They were called the tuna guys.

Oh, yeah. I know the tuna guys. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And they had they would have sashimi out on the pla. Nobody thought that was possible.

Okay. So, for the listeners, the tuna guys brought a uh refrigerated truck, right? Like they think they're they're fishermen, right? And so they I don't know where they off the coast of like Oregon or Northern California or somewhere, right?

And so I don't know how much tuna, but it would have been like tons.

Yeah. Enough of all of us to know about him.

Like I'm talking to you and you remember the tuna guy. So that's

there was one year I think it was 2006 cuz we had our Hawaii camp. It was called like the Capilina camp. And so we would have this like we would have like 120 pound pig on a rotisserie cooking for like 9 hours. And so we it was a pot like so we had all this food and we had a line of like somewhere between 750 and a,000 people like the went, no joke, like 15 minutes. It was just evaporated, you know. Yeah. And then the tuna guys like tapping on the shoulder were just like, "Hey,

do you need some help?"

Yeah. Right.

And then they were like, "Hey, we need some help cuz we have a freaking truck full of tuna." So they just kind of just they just started sessioning up everything and like I mean it was literally thousands of people. I mean I'm not sure if the the Department of Health is listening right now, but

Well, that's the thing is that they were flying under the radar.

Yeah.

You know, and like I I I would spend a lot of time in a in a camp called Camp Karp. I don't know if you remember camp.

Oh, I know that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That was more of the Workhamman's camp. So, a lot of the crew would hang out there. A matter of fact, I I still know Russ Leslie very well. He's a super good friend. He lives in uh West Oakland. And we don't he doesn't bring camp carp out anymore, but uh all the carp campions still gather. And uh he would uh I I would always come in because the tuna guys would come to first camp and say, "Hey man, I got all this stuff you want to like this big huge like five 20 pound piece of meat, you know.

Yeah.

Going to spoil like in 10 minutes.

Start eating.

Yeah.

Now, so I handed it to Russ and Russ, you know, he's a sushi dude. Boom boom boom blah blah blah blah. Now we're all eating like California roll with tuna in it and in the desert living like, you know, like royalty.

Yeah.

Well, are they still around or I heard it's like the Department of Health was just like no more.

There there was some issues with their refrigeration, but nobody ever got sick out of it,

you know, that uh but the we've had to tow the line in a lot of we're way on the radar now.

Even even with the with our work forces and so on, you know, we uh we have a labor force and we we have to hand them just like everyone else, you know.

Yeah.

Everybody has time cards now. They have to punch clocks.

Yeah. No, it's funny because like a number of years ago

time and all that s***. Yeah, like I I I don't know. I had this ongoing just kind of joke and I would make sure to tell everyone this was a joke, you know, but I was like, "One of these days, one of these days I'm going to start a camp and or maybe camp, but we're just going to go and we're have like reflective vests and clipboards and like these big orange stickers and we're going to be Playa Ocean. Okay? And what we're going to do is we're going to go up to DPW vehicles and we're going to put this giant orange sticker on their windshield saying violation." I remember every DPW persons that I talked to, they're like, "That's a death warrant."

Well, you know, you know, the first thing they would do if that would happen, very first thing is they would get on their radio and they would turn it to DeepW Ops channel Coyote. This I just put a OSHA violation sticker. What's going on? They would call me immediately and I'll uh I am the in-house OSHA trainer. Well, now they're actually is OSHA the it's funny because like all these years later

we're announcer. We I've actually uh put out almost 600 cards now. I've been Ocean Trader for eight years.

Wow.

So if if someone came to that prank, I'd want to meet them.

No, but it's funny because like for many years just like seeing all these like structures people are putting up and they're going up ladder like

you know I've I've actually gone through the camp and say you really can't put three bases scaffolding on a school bus and then drive it around. You can't.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, it's it's always been uh culture versus safety. I actually teach that in my class. Culture versus

but we have come a long way and we still we still are going a long way. So, um getting getting back to what what brought it brought us out in the first place, it was the community really that that brought me back.

And but still brings you back, right? I mean, for me, it's like what it comes down to, like, you know, like all these years later, you're just like, well, what's like why why, you know, why why spend all this money? Why go all this way? Like, you know, it's like you're going to this this environment that can that very well can kill you, you know? It tests your every relationship you have, you know.

Yeah. It's it's it's the community. And I I don't know. I've had some debates with people online because especially I think like some younger burners who are like, "Oh, no, it's about the 10 principles. It's all about you just got to follow the 10 princip principles is a recipe that leads you to community. Yeah.

You know, and it's kind of like my last episode when I was talking to Jenny Kay because she kind of like grew up like in the in a a a religious like church community and it's the the fellowship. It's the you know when when the chips are down like when the flooding in North Carolina whatever like you know it's like the people come together and they you know if I have a place a warm place you can come and stay. If I have food I'll help you you know and and I think like going to the desert and uh you know, Michael Michael danger ranger like you drawing that line and everybody crossing over. It's like going to this temporary autonomy zone like this is a different than the place we came from.

Yes.

You know, and we're creating this this community where you can feel safe to, you know, express yourself and be yourself and and be, you know, as Bill and Tim say, be cool to each other.

But it's a community.

It's it's so refreshing, you know. I think when I come back because I spend 10 weeks out there and uh you really sort of uh kind of forget what it's like back at home and I love San Francisco uh but it's still a city

and it still has its angst and uh when I very when I first get back to the city it's it's always a culture shock to come back into the to the thriving uh metropolis and it always hits me hardest believe it or not, at the Bay Bay Bridge toll plaza.

Yeah.

And it's because everybody's just cramming in and trying to get ahead of everybody else and all the love is gone. You know, none of this

Nobody ever says, "No, no, you first." Nobody ever says anything like that.

Yeah.

So, when you get out to the desert and you get to to a a temporary city in the middle of nowhere where the script is flipped, how refreshing. And uh how refreshing where some somebody's not trying to make a buck on you. And where people there's another thing that people really get wrong about it is first they they call it a music festival. And I say, well, it's certainly not a music festival. It's a it's a it's a communal event. And another thing that they get wrong is they call it a barter town, but it's it's not. That was stamped out a long time ago. I mean, I remember when people were like early on people had like blankets and they're like, "Oh yeah, we'll trade this for that." And we're like, "What are you doing?" Like we're ing and then like puts stop to that.

But the like I said when you're in the back of a lift and somebody finds out that you work for Bernie Mann and you start the interview that that's they still have this misconception that it's a rave camp that it's a barter town that people are rolling around on drugs in the mud and I'm and I'm going well no it's actually not like that at all. So when okay at what point did music enter the experience because I'm sure like when you guys went in 19 Well not you you know but like in 1990 when when Kakaf invited Larry to bring the man. You know, it's like I'm not sure what was there a rave camp that year.

I don't know. I know it was there in 96.

As you said, it was parked like several miles outside. You had to journey to it.

It was always like a separate kind of thing. And then like when like you said like they had to build the grid in the city, that's when they were like, "Okay, we'll we'll put them at like the 10 o'clock and the two o'clock,

you know."

Yeah. I think Bry Man is known uh as a a rave event just because they have the loudest speakers. I mean, there is all kinds of music out there, but the rave the rave music takes over.

Yeah.

I'm not sure anywhere else on this planet you'll see. I've been I don't know what I've been calling the sound barges.

They're like Yeah. Like a Mayan warrior like you know, robot.

They used to come into center camp and and uh keep us awake, but we finally we actually had

I thought I heard them this year.

Yeah.

Yeah. make an ordinance.

Yeah. Out in the deep play. No, there were definitely some some days, some nights I remember seeing them like between center camp and the and the man and Yeah.

They just boom boom boom, you know.

Yeah.

And it doesn't stop. I a quick story here is because I'm the city superintendent, a lot of times things fall into my plate. I have to I'm the one that has to go take care of it. And there was uh I think Wednesday after the event where we're all back at work now. We're tearing things down. We're lo trucks. We got to get we got to get off this plyette. We only got like about two weeks to to break everything down.

So, we're we're not nobody's partying anymore. We're we're in bed by 9 10:00. We have a couple of beers. We wake up at 7 and get it going or and so there was one camp that was still partying

and they were loud as could be. Boom, boom, boom. They were just canvasing the whole city with this one sound system and it was dawn and they were still thumping away. And so my radio's going off, Coyote, you need to go out there and talk to him. Said, I'm already getting my pants on, you know, I'm already starting the truck. So I drive out there and they were at 10:00 and uh they had this semitr that had a million dollars worth of sound equipment on it easily, just pumping away. And count them, five people were dancing. Wow. Five people were keeping every body else up. It's like, "Come on, you guys." "Oh, well, just let me finish my set." I said, "No, you don't finish your set. Just I didn't even know you guys had sets. It sounds the same to me."

Yeah. Well, you should have brought your saxophone.

Oh, I did. I did, actually. Uh in my first couple years, I brought my band out there. Uh but it just it was just too much work. It was really really a a heavy lift to bring everything out there. And it's it destroys sound systems. I don't know.

Oh, sure.

Yeah.

And uh it was just uh I just didn't do it anymore. Besides, my saxophone really took a lot of it's it's really hard on the horn itself. The the guy that's been fixing my horn for years told me that he wouldn't fix it anymore if I brought it out to that damn desert.

My friend play dusted this thing one more time.

I said, "What? What'd you do? Drag it through the beach?" Same guy has been fixing my horn for almost 40 years. You never know who you're going to grow old with. Yeah. Yeah.

My saxophone repair man and I are growing old together.

Yeah. So, so all these years all this involvement it's like so you know the whole like theme of the the show this you the shadow of the man you know it's about like the the impact over time of you know Birdie man and like you know people places and things you know so yeah I mean like it seems like it impact you had quite the impact in your life. I mean how old were you when you first went like

36.

36 and you're what? 65. So half your your life.

Yeah. I never dreamed it would be like this. And uh I'm about to get my 30-year patch with DPW.

Wow.

We started DPW98. When we started, did I ever think that I was going to be with this for 30 years. Uh but there's several things that you you fed me these questions a few days ago and I've been thinking about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And uh one of the things that really keeps me coming back is that it just again it never gets more boring and it's it's always challenging and uh I've really acred quite a lot of institutional knowledge over the years with this particular event and the more knowledge you have the better you are at at at managing and uh I've become a featured manager I've and um a a person of uh has have a lot of experience I can help a lot of people out there

uh uh Also when I first as you read in the opening scenes of the book I was not a builder. I didn't know how to actually uh I was not a working man in that I was not a construction person.

Mhm.

But I found a new passion and in just setting up the prooad I found that all this long I had been a builder. And when you think about it uh building songs and entertaining is there's there's it dovetales with building because you're still it's a service you know you're creating uh you're you're creating a place for people to thrive in. You know, when I build, people thrive in and there's there's a satisfaction in that. You know, I had dreams as a as a kid. I wanted to I wanted to be a rock star. I wanted to have I wanted to go up that red carpet and grab that Grammy. I really did.

But, uh when I started building Black Rock City, I realized that there was the same amount of satisfaction in being the silent provider of possibilities. for these people that they could come into the city that you built and they they you know they they know that DPW put it together but they don't really think that much about it. They just Black Rock City you know.

Yeah.

There's there's a certain honor honor of having this unspoken response or un un um unappreciated but it's just

unsung hero.

Yeah. Kind of an unsung hero. You you know the better you do your the better we do our job the less people know know were there.

Uhhuh.

And there's a there's a it's it's it really gives me some sort of validation, you know, and the first couple of times that I stood up on an overlook and and took and took a look at the city that I just built, I don't know if a Grammy would have been as satisfying as looking over the city that me and my newfound friends had had produced.

Yeah.

And and then to equally satisfying is to go up on that same lookout one month later and see that it's absolutely gone. on there's there's a real a certain beautiful circle to that whole thing that just keeps bringing me back.

And in the meantime, uh I've really developed a lot of leadership skills. Uh I've de developed u administrative skills. I've I've grown a lot in in my thinking. The people that I've met along the way and still know and the conversations that I have even now, the conversation I'm having now, it's with open amazing people that are just They're not they're not just using other people's ideas. They have their own ideas and own possibilities. And I just never stop meeting amazing people. And that's what keeps me back. And just to be a part of that fabric that actually matters. That's something that uh you cannot compare that to any other experience that I've that I've had.

In the meantime, uh my wife Mel uh Melissa Waters, she was Uh she was part of the DPW back then. She's she's approaching her 25th year.

Mhm.

Public works. She worked on the side shop and uh we pretty much hooked up out there and built a family. We now have twin boys that are 16

that have going to Burning Man since they were four months old.

Oh wow. Wow.

And so we're kind of and she now manages the offices. And so we're kind of a power couple, I guess you could say. And the boys were, you know, we're show that the Bernie man is actually spanning a generation.

That is one of the more incredible things. Yeah.

Yeah. And and I'm and I'm all I'm all in.

What's again, we don't know what the future's going to bring. I don't know. There's this new administration is going to bring a different department to the interior and these. So, we're going to be working with a different staff with a different agenda.

And so, uh again, we don't know how it's going to affect us.

But Burning Man has a certain momentum. them too. Like was it Larry or somebody said it's like it's a oil tanker or a cruise ship. It's like it doesn't turn around very easily. Like

I mean it's it it will like it was I was talking to a a first time burner on the bus this year, you know, and coming back and he was like, "Do you think it'll happen again?" And I was like I was like Bernie Ban it's like it like it has this momentum like it will just happen. It will like nature will Bernie man the man will find a way you know like I mean no matter what like you know a particular particular political administration might try and strangle this golden goose, you know, for the BLM. But well, I I will read you a little quote from uh from this book.

Sure.

And this was the morning after the 96 when the whole city caught fire. And I was uh Jason and and Marlo and I stayed up all night long guarding our camp so that wouldn't get torched cuz there were pyromaniacs that were rampaging the city.

Mhm.

And so the next day that there was just everything had collapsed and so I I was pretty frazzled. So Jason and we were in a dust storm at that point, my very first dust storm. And uh I said I sat uh it was it was really only was it really only a week ago that I was racing across the Playa towards Black Rock City, my Mazda at dawn? Didn't an entire lifetime happened since then? The escapades of Black Rock City had taken such a dance in my soul that I grown an extra pumping heart in my chest. I was finally ought to create a purgatory. Do you think it'll happen again next year? I asked. Come on, it has to. This isn't just a weekend party we started. It's a full-on social. It's a full-on social crusade. They better let us put it on because it's coming anyway. You can't hold back s*** like this.

Exactly. That's beautiful.

Yeah.

Was in 96. And we're still in the same frame. You know, whatever you got there, Bernie, man. It's this community that's got legs.

A lot of them.

Yeah.

I think that is

it's all over the world.

You know, one of the statistics that really stuck with my head this this last year was uh for the listeners that there's a lot of regionals what we call

where there's there's uh other events that are going around the globe that follow the same sense of principles and that we call them Birdman regionals.

Mhm.

And more people attended the regionals than intended Burning Man.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, it's it's growing globally and so you you won't be able to hold it back.

Oh, yeah.

There's regionals all around the world now. There's little plants that are growing and all of them are growing exponentially like the first one did.

Exactly.

So, it gives me it gives me some solace.

Yeah. Well, also I remember like a number of years ago we were like uh trying to figure out like you know the numbers you It's like like how many people have actually been to to Burning Man and I think it was it last year or something like that I I kind of revisited these numbers again like and like you were saying remember like for like 959 96 what 4,000 to 8,000 I I remember like I finding these lists of like the populations for like each year and then going back and looking at like the censuses and like it's I mean the data is kind of incomplete you know but uh I think at this point after this year it's something like half a million people have been to Black Rockck City for like at least once.

Yeah.

And then and then and then I was at uh

uh Marian or somebody told me that uh there's like oh like if you include the regionals it's like it's closer it might even be like over 800,000.

Yeah. So like like worldwide.

I wonder if we're close to the million mark. I don't know.

Probably getting close. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's a it's a growing community. I mean that's the thing is like people think it's like oh it's a music festival and everyone just goes and they go back every single year. It's like no. I mean There's a fair amount of people go one in time and don't care for it, don't like it, or or just for whatever. It's like, oh, this is a bird. It's hard for them to get to, so they can only afford to do it like once. You know, some people will be like, yeah, I'm just going for the party. And after three years become like kind of jaded, you know, they're just like, h, been there, done that. You know,

we have that happen in our ranks with the staff. Some some people stick around. Some people, you know, they said, I've been doing this for 10 years. Uh, I'm gonna do something else, you know.

Yeah.

Fine, that's great, you know.

Yeah. Had

to have you while we had and then they'll come back they'll take five years off and all a sudden they come back on a different I'm back you know.

Oh I should show you this thing. So yeah. So this year on the player cuz I hadn't been last time I was on the play was like 2011 or something. So then I went back this year and so you know I retired as a regional contact in 2012 or something. So I was like oh I want to get together like the other like retired like regional contacts. and and uh like you're saying like there's there's been a fair amount of people go like 10 12 15 years and then life intrudes you know it's like you have kids you you know whatever so for the alumni re I was like I was like we're having an alumni reunion

so I made these these t-shirts but I also made these stickers.

Ah graduated.

Yeah that's great.

Well I don't know because I remember like Marian like I I posted the the thing and she was like gradu what do you mean? And I was like, no, it's a good thing. It's it's kind of like you got your degree and then you go out into the real world and then you bring your knowledge to the rest. It's not like it's not like the the ravery like, oh, been there, done that, you know, whatever. What's the next festival?

You don't It does change you. If if you ask me, it has changed me. It's it's it's instilled hope uh in a lot of ways that that uh that we can still build s*** together and there's still it it showed me the operation can be as powerful as competition.

Oh yeah. Well, I always heard is that competition is the best tool of the devil.

Yeah.

But also I mean resilience too, you know, like you're saying like uh you encounter hardship and then you got to like work together with people to overcome things. It's like Yeah. It's an incredible lesson to take the rest of your life. It's like when some small thing goes bad, you know, like it's not the end of the world.

Yeah. It's the the mud hit us all.

Yeah. Yeah. But you know, was uh what what was interesting with the whole mud thing getting back to that is is uh the whole media storm that hit it was hilarious and they kept they kept looking for the failure and they just couldn't find it after a while. They kept looking for the disaster and there just wasn't one.

I think the media look likes a good disaster story.

Yeah, they were looking for the disaster.

Yeah.

And the only people that they were able to interview were the ones who got who left which I think it was only

uh like maybe three or 4 thousand people that actually left. When you have a the population of 80,000, that's a pretty small percentage. Everybody else just stayed put and opened their box of wine and and got by the campfires and told stories, you know, nobody

uh but uh it would it really showed that there there wasn't a disaster and it really frustrated me because the more important story was that it wasn't as a disaster and they weren't interested in that story which really really is telling about how people are doing things right now. And so it is a fresh air to go out to Black Rock City and have disaster isn't the most

important thing. It's like cooperation. It's we we would you know

well I think in terms of like the media or you know entertainment and whatever and politics even whatever you know it's

it is the disaster is the discord that kind of sells for for these kids today sells the newspapers. It gets the clicks, you know, it gets the attention, you know? I mean,

even like social media, you know, it's like what what's the things that like go viral, you know?

Yeah, that's what I was just going to say is what happened to when uh Twitter turned to X. Now, if you go on X, it's just people fighting and a lot of Discord and a lot of and uh it's like, wow,

you know.

Okay, here's an idea experiment like next to Thunderdome next year, we'll set up I don't know. Plus, you get a long dome.

Like, which one attracts more people?

Well, yeah. You see, you know, we're not out of the woods yet.

Yeah. You know.

Yeah. All right. Well, um been out about an hour now. Okay. Uh well, anything else you have to add? Anything you want to plug or

you know, um I'll be going out there. Uh I don't have any retirement plans. Uh I I don't know uh what's going to happen with uh the with my my family. I know that uh I'll be I'll be building Black Rock City for as long as there's a Black Rock City, as long as they'll have me, you know, and uh what's next is we're we're not done surfing this wave,

you know. And uh so I'm around and the same uh with my wife. She's we're all in on this thing and even if the whole thing fell apart, we we would take our skills and be involved in the community some in some other way doing the same thing. And so that's that's what I've brought out of this whole thing. It's I I believe I'm kind of a I hope I'm a better person of all of this because when I when I joined in I was in a kind of a dark place in my life with my music career and and just when you when you when you hit a hit a a plateau where there's no creativity, Um, you know, I was playing in the bars a lot and you know, I was into my third shot of booze by the third set and uh, so I was anesthetizing myself in a lot of ways.

Well, that's a good marker and measure just like look at your just one simple thing, alcohol intake from when you were in your 20s like versus now, you know, be like, "Oh, yeah, I am a better person."

Yeah. And and uh, it's, you know, it's u I don't know what where else to take it from here. I just Uh to to answer your question, it's really I've flourished in this in this environment. I was sort of built for it. Uh it seems like all the things that I've done that I did it before I went up to Bernie man, it seems like I had been in in preparation for being the city superintendent of Black Rockck City. It it utilizes all the skills that I've been amassing over my lifetime.

Yeah. So, here's another thing that I've been kind of thinking about like off and on and I remember years ago coming up with this idea and other people kind of picked up that my friend DM I think might actually have a theme camp in the play called this like the the burning acres retirement community you mean I mean what about like having like a place for you know DPW or whoever like veterans you know who who who spent their life you know like like building this city and it's like and this is your reward you know we have this little patch of land and uh you know

yeah sure that'd be fine with me there's a surf break close by you know, but uh that's you see I'm I'm the pioneer on all this. I I I started I co-founded the DPW98 be the first one to get his 30-year patch. Uh DA who runs restoration is right behind by two years

and uh

and he'll get his he just got his 25. And so this is a reality because we're actually very actively writing u SOPs which is standard operating procedure reforms to to And the SOPs uh not only tell you how to do the job, but we're very in concern. We're very making sure that the SOPs have history of the job

of the of the cultures that we've created because we don't want to lose that culture either.

And so, uh, yeah, I'll go out to, you know, put me out to pasture so I can write a second book, god damn it. Uh, the first book I was actually, uh, I got an honorarium from Bernie man to write it and so I' I'd probably need to have another Ah, so you think you have another book in you?

Well, I do. I do. Do you remember that old beat up car that was uh that I got in the back? The Plymouth Valari that

Oh, the Wednesday car.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I still have that car.

Oh,

it still runs.

Really?

And it's completely bashed to s***. And uh it's uh it sits on the it sits on the ranch right now and it's sort of the flagship of DPW now. And uh uh the the car itself is got a thousands of stories to tell. And so the next book would be called the Valari Chronicles.

Ahari can speak.

Yeah. Oh, it's it's been listening the whole time. Ari was alive. It's like my mother the or what's that? I can't remember what the car this live uh uh Herby the Love Bug.

Yeah. I don't There's been several story lines that come out where The machine is actually alive. And

Night Rider, the kit, you know.

Yeah, Night Rider was one. I almost said my mother the car, but that really dates me. That was

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Yeah,

it tang.

The mystery machine.

Oh, the Valari Chronicles. The Vari's been alive this whole time.

Ah, awesome. Yeah. And then uh something kind of getting back to what you said about um being kind of like one of the unsung heroes, you know. And it's like, oh, you imagine like going down the red carpet and getting like the accolades, but it's like you take a lot of pride and pleasure of of just kind of sitting back and being like, you know, I built this or I helped made this happen. Like, and in a large part like this, this is kind of part of the genesis of like me making this whole show, you know, because I mean that's something I've been kind of interested this whole like this this shadow of the man, you know? It's like cuz everybody always says, you know, like Bernie man's changed my life, you know, but I'm like, well, how does that actually look you, you know? I mean, for kind of like a bucket list thing like oh I went to Bernie man once has this music festival it's like whatever you know like I don't think it really I mean even people like that I'm sure it changes them to some degree but like yeah someone like you it's like oh you've been doing this for like decades and decades it's like it's it is in it's like you said it's half of your life and it's probably like you know your retirement your future you know and so it's like yeah I I kind of want to you know bring these stories to people you know so it's like so you're not unsung we could we can sing your your your song a little Well, guess I guess like if you wanted one last thought on all of this was uh when I was on the road with the band and playing as a musician, uh I really had something to prove. Uh I uh I was never really quite satisfied when I was traveling with the band, I would have told myself to really start appreciating the station that you're at at that moment instead of always thinking that you could be put someplace better.

Mhm.

When when I was cuz we the band I was with called at one point was called the Dinatones and we were actually uh doing pretty good. We had we had charted songs and we were doing was staying plane stadiums and flying around and we played 300 dates a year. So it was

Oh, that's the poster behind you.

Uh oh, yeah, actually. Yeah, it is.

Okay. I was looking at that. I was like

yeah.

Uh but still um I was still really frustrated at that time. I had something to prove and when I first started seeing the city that I was building. I no longer had something to prove. And I think that was the biggest shift in my life that I still try to nurture that.

Is that kind of like the whole idea of just like just be happy with what you have instead of what you don't have. Yeah.

And and it just like I said, the satisfaction of not only being involved with building something like Brack City, but being involved with the cool people who built it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Again, coming back to the the community. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we sit back every year and just watch this thing populate with some of the coolest s*** I've ever seen. Look, you know, the artwork or or the interactive s*** or super clever stuff or it's just like people's creativity like where their their minds like like oh they came up with this thing like

you know it's like how where did you get that idea?

Yeah. Like that's incredible. Like yeah I remember one year it was early on it was like 96 97 or no it was 97 98 it It was just like way out in the play there was just some light that was just kind of doing these funky things and you know you see some light and you started walking towards it and then it's like first it's going left to right then it's right to left and then it's kind of like wobb like what is this weird thing it's like we have to so we walk and walk it's probably like a couple of miles or something you know

and uh we finally get there and it's

I think it's like the tail rotor of a helicopter and on each end of it is a old like tube TV and like totally wired up, you know, and then it's just playing static, right? And it's just and it's just on this pedestal and and this pole and there's a simple electric motor and it's just like one one like you know a simple you know like like one RPM like revolution you know and there's just a simple simple thing but like from across the play it was just like what is this crazy like what is this thing isn't magical you know and

yeah

it's just the creativity incredible nautical year Oh, the floating world.

Floating world. Yeah, there was a lot of dragons, of course, that happened that year. Uh, sea creatures, sea

uh and I remember that year I kept seeing a sea serpent that was very far away, which is uh for the listeners who haven't been to Burning Man, one of the things that really fuels it is that your perception your your uh perspective is skewed because of the the nature of the flat expanse. So, you can't tell is close or far. or large or small.

Yeah.

And that really messes with your mind.

And so that really fuels a lot of the creativity of the art projects that come out there.

And so there was this serpent that had been swimming around in the open plaia and it was just gorgeous. This beautiful serpent. It had three parts to its body. Was a head, then the the big body part, and then a tail.

Uhhuh.

And I said, "Man, before this event ends, I want to get a close look at this gorgeous serpent." But it was always so far away. It was just this big giant monster sw in the open ocean. It was beautiful. And then finally at the end of the event, uh it came into center camp and it was a guy on a bicycle and pulling three radio flyer wagons that had wire mesh bodies that was covered with muslin and had Christmas side. That was it.

Oh, that's that's awesome.

Oh, there it is. Oh my god. It's Just a couple of kids wagons, a bicycle. Oh man.

No, it's funny cuz like sometimes I describe to people, you know, they go, "Oh, describe Burning Man, which is like, well, it's a place where you'll feel like you're tripping, but you're completely sober."

Yeah. You know, you don't need the acid.

Yeah. And then, okay. Well, well, one last way for me, like I remember um it was around sunset. I can't remember. It was like later 90s, early 2000s, walking out in the playa, sun setting, and we look up in the sky and then there's like a light and then two lights and then three lights and then it's like this string of pearls just kind of like going across the sky and then the ones at the end would wink out and then the ones in the front and then we all we all looked up and we're just like

we're like how the hell did somebody do that? We're like we're at Burning Man.

Somebody did that, you know? We're all figuring out it's like okay send up some like model rockets or something. No, no kite like yeah no I don't know. And then it was like maybe like nine months later so And I was like, "Oh, this was like a Russian like booster rocket that was like 15 years old that just happened to come through the atmosphere at this precise angle." Yeah. And we were just like, "Somebody did this. Somebody we know somebody did this, you know,

because otherwise why are we seeing this right now?" And we're all completely sober, you know.

Yeah. Pretty funny.

Well, thank you so much, Tony, for your time. I mean, um, if anyone wants to get a hold of you, I mean, is there don't don't go blurting out your phone number.

No, no,

it's coyote burningman.org.

All right.

Awesome.

And uh I think that's about it. Also, I have a website that's Tony Coyote Perez.

Okay.

And uh that website uh takes you right to uh my books and I got a bunch of blogs and writings and things like that in there.

Awesome. And again everyone, the book is Built to Burn: Tales of the Desert Carney of Burning Man by Tony Cody Perez by Bernman Project Press

and Tony Cypz.com.

Yeah. Well, uh, well, thank you so much for everything and, uh, I don't know if you ever want to come back on again and tell more story,

but but thank you so much for everything.

Okay. Absolutely. This was what I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much.

Hey, my pleasure.

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