EP 12 Amy Bunker

Welcome to Episode 12 with Amy Bunker, a prolific long-time participant in the Burning Man community. The conversation serves as a professional and personal retrospective, detailing Bunker’s journey from a hesitant first-timer in 2001 to a central figure in the regional network and various operational departments. She explores how the event’s principles of immediacy and gift culture transformed her approach to art and architecture, eventually leading to her career in sustainable building and public sculpture.

The narrative highlights the extensive infrastructure and civic complexity required to maintain a temporary city, moving beyond the "festival" stereotype to discuss the grit of Restoration (Resto), the Department of Public Works, and environmental stewardship. A poignant thematic core emerges as Bunker describes sharing the experience with her veteran father, illustrating how the desert environment fosters radical vulnerability and deep human connection. Ultimately, she defines Burning Man as a "hive mind of creativity" that empowers individuals to realize new possibilities in both their personal lives and the global community.

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host Andi which what that Andi? Today our guest is the one and only Amy Bunker. Welcome Amy.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. What a wonder. Yeah.

So uh give us like a brief two minute description of like your Burning Man experience. Like who are you?

Oh wow.

The world of Burning Man.

The elevator pitch the nutshell version. Let's see. Um how can I distill the cloud to a raindrop? Let's see.

Yeah. So when you when you first I first went in 2001. Uh I was living in Santa Cruz at the time and I had heard about it in 99 uh right when Woodstock was sort of resurrected, the 30-year anniversary. And

Oh, yeah.

I don't I don't know if you recall, but

I remember that. Yeah.

Yeah. It was sort of called like Rapestock in the background because so many women were getting assaulted like not just in their tents, but on the field. And

yeah,

coming from uh sort of festival culture, campout culture, I was like, I'm not going to go out to the Mad Max version of that in the middle of the no way. Like that that was my first impression was no way, no how. And then um some of my teachers assistants, they were sort of reporting back just these really obscure like one of the women was of Asian descent and she had gone around with like a cigar case selling Asian culture in center and that just kind of like

that was like in 2000 or something.

Uh this is 98 probably.

98. Wow.

Yeah. And then I was in the Bronze Foundry at UC Santa Cruz. I was finishing out I had started off in psychology and geology and then shifted to the fine arts and went into intermedia and I had sort of rounded out in the bronze foundry. I was really processoriented. I loved um positive negative space moving learning along the way instead of I wasn't committed to the final product usually which is really funny working in bronze because it's eternal. So that was

kind of daunting but

um part my experimental exploration with with materials and and my bronze professor Shan Monahan who is still one of my favorite people and professors to this day just so inspiring and interesting and still a very active and successful artist in in Santa Cruz. Um he gave us a little slideshow giving his background in San Jose State and and some of his um graduate work which is really once again impressive to me and out of a slide of show of like 40 slides about a of them were of Black Rock City of Bir.

And so he had been going out there and sort of he's like honestly I'll I'll kind of paraphrase his um what my download was from that show was was something to the effect of if you're serious about being a visual artist then you have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca.

And and Burning Man is changing the course of art history. It's blowing the walls off of galleries. It's It's and I can't you can't get it from my pictures or my stories. You have to go out and experience it for yourself. You have to like see the color that can't be seen elseow or snort the Kool-Aid or whatever the thing is. You got to go see it to believe it and feel it and experience it in your own right. And so with that, I was like, well, I want to go, you know, like I'm compelled to go, but I still had reservation. And it wasn't until

um it wasn't until I did the Lmark Forum, actually. I I had a partner So I I was really interested in the field of psychology and I got and I kind of shifted out of it in college because it's so fascinated with deviance and I just wanted to know like how humans be the study of ontology but a more universal model a more not so westernized in American but

and one of my friends said uh Amy you got to do the landmark forum that's kind of the that's that's the education you're looking for and so even with that I I'm like sure whatever it wasn't until someone actually invited me, opened the door, and the forum deals in a language of possibility. It speaks to like you develop a possibility for your life and then you live into it.

Mhm.

And I met a lot of burners. I was doing this in the Bay Area at the time in Oakland and um and San Jose region going up from Santa Cruz. And a lot of people were saying that Burning Man is landmark realized.

It's people living into their possibilities. It's a whole city of possibility. And even with that, I was still like, "Wow, this is really peing my curiosity." Like, I'm inspired. But I didn't actually go until two I I graduated the forum and I did their whole curriculum for a living. They have a self-expression and leadership program. Then I volunteered for the Lamark Forum for teens because I just felt like

this kind of technology was so helpful for me in terms of shifting my perspective and and realizing we're we're just little meaning making machines and we we actually have a little in the process if we can realize how we're conditioned in that way, you know.

Oh, yeah.

Um, and so anyways, uh, yeah, a friend in in the forum turned me onto an email list. This was in the n late 90s, so there wasn't like social media or anything.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, he just he just passed along an email list. And the amount of times the word love had come up in that

also was like a wow. I really don't think I don't think I know what I'm talking about here. I I think I'm assuming a lot about this thing is and I don't actually know but it wasn't until three days before the event in 2001 uh one of my teacher assistants uh Joey Shep who I just really admired he had he had done some really awesome self- inspired exploration of biomimicry which wasn't even really a term back then you know

yeah

he was just really pushing that he had like two two-inch binders of selfexloration that he had presented to one of our classes and I was just like I love your brain. You know, uh I was just so switched on by the way he thought about the world and his self-initiating um sort of conquest. And he said, "Hey Amy, you want to go to Burning Man with me?"

And I was like, "With you?"

Yes. And like now, yes. And he was a raw foodist and I worked at a New Leaf Deli in Santa Cruz. And I was like, "Listen, Joey, I get the discount. You I'm just following your lead. Everything you get, get two of and we're good to go. And so he was a design guru and when we got out there we had a whole series of tarps and tents and things for shade and whatnot. And it was very small.

Was that his first year too or did

Oh, okay.

Yeah. And he invited along a friend of ours, Peter, who uh rest in peace, was was a wonderful addition to our camp. And we had a little earth flag and we oursself camp earth ship. And that was that predecessed that was before um Michael Reynolds founded biotechure and Earth Ships. So, or maybe even around the same time, but we didn't know about it. You know,

I've since worked with him, which is kind of an interesting little full circle.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, Joey and Peter and I went out there and we just

ate raw cantaloupe and avocados and raw coconuts and then we once our sort of personal needs were met for the day, which was really basic food, water, rest, then it was just game on. And I got to bounce around the desert with Joey, my little baby kangaroo friend. was just also we were just geeking out on all the like this is the art. Oh my god, that's the artist. We get to meet the art and like talk and help them with the piece and take pictures and and now it was there was so much interface and it was so grand and

oh man I was like hook line and sinker like I was just on another planet like this is possible. I can't

I

Yeah.

And it was for me and it still remains like one of the the the largest gathering of hive mind creativity force as far as I can tell on the planet

that isn't guided by commerce like I I lived in for a while and South by Southwest is just like booms hive mind on in terms of interactive music film everything

it's such a creative ju guuju for us and LA and New York like these are these are these awesome incubators you know at least in America I mean they're they're worldwide too but but Bernie just offered something so unique for me, especially coming from Bernie from festival culture. Like,

okay,

I didn't see a single cigarette butt. I didn't see a single beer can.

I didn't I just couldn't believe it. I just was like, "Oh my god."

2001 you're talking about? Really?

Yeah. Like, I I can't believe when everyone takes care of their own s***, there's s*** to take care of. Like, what a concept. What imagine if the world operated with with just that principle.

Yeah. Just the one leave no trace. Yeah.

Yeah. Before even campground principal, leave it better than you found it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, and have you been going like every year since? Like, have or have you missed any years?

I have indeed missed some years. I was in a good chronological order until my sister got married in 2004 and I was her bridesmaid and she was her maid of honor and she's like, "Amy, are there any dates that don't work?" And I'm like, "Just the one.

Just do it then."

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. She She got married the night the man burned. I I I I debated wearing dusty clothes down her aisles.

Well, did you ever like suggest he was like, "How about a destination wedding?" Huh?

Oh, I I considered it to sort of mandate my family to be like, "No, you need to come to my city and see why this is so important to me." Like, why? Like, cast your judgment aside. Because I had it too for many years. I thought I what it was.

And then you also um weren't you like you were the first uh regional contact for New Hampshire. Right.

Vermont and Maine. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. All three. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I So, let's see. In 2004, I missed it. I came back here because my for my sister's wedding and then she had a baby. So, I moved back to support her. And in ' 05, I contacted the

the project, the Burning Man organization, just like, hey, I'm I'm in the Northeast. What's going on here?

Kind of like what George Pap did in when he went back and went, "How do I connect with other burners?" And they were like,

I think that's how we all kind of did it like cuz like for me on Hawaii it was the same thing where I was just like

I was like why why is there nothing happening out here? Like why isn't somebody doing something? And then I was like well I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring. Like honestly I just wanted someone to do it like not necessarily meocy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You volunteer yourself. So you know something that needs to get done ultimately you're the one to spearhead that initiative.

Yeah. So but I wasn't I wasn't intending to become a a leader in any way, shape, or form. I I was just sort of checking in to see who else back here knew what the heck I was talking about. Like

like it was just a it was so enigmatic at the time. It was it was this post-apocalyptic, you know, whatever the the media had had said about whatever it sure, it's all those things, but it was a lot more than that, too. So, I'm I'm sort of like, who was it? Who else knows what else? I don't know.

Yeah.

Anyway, I got on the horn with uh Beex Ryan.

Yeah.

Who became one of my dearest Jellies, one of my dearest friends. And um immediately we just hit it off. We had such a great conversation. And she's like, "So basically there's nothing going on back there. You're you're what's going on."

Um and you and also um

you have a job.

You want to cover New H or Vermont and Maine, like the neighboring states, which also weren't really covered. And at the time there was an email list for each. There was like a hundred people in each state. And I would say out of those 300 people that were my constituents, so to speak, um maybe only 10% had gone, maybe 30 people are gone. And of that, maybe only 10% of that were actually active. So I only had like three people

in my network that were actually showing up and like responding and being like, "Oh my god, someone else. Let's do a thing."

I've got so much art creativity and I've got stencils and I've got ideas and like I want to do that with friends and meet new people. So we did like meet and greets at breweries and little little stuff like that. And then I started going to the regional network. So I was there at the first um regional

summit. Yep. The summit that was at the old headquarters

which was 200 that was still like a China basin. That one

it was down at the headquarters on like Third Street Howard or I forget. Um it was in their old headquarters that had all Yeah.

Pod breakout rooms and it was so

Do you remember that there was like a protest outside?

Oh, it was so I mean there was Yeah. I actually I remember Yeah. It was like cacophony society I think that came in.

Yeah. Or something,

wasn't it? And and they were snarking on us. I just loved the grassroots. Nobody really knew what was going on, but we all I called it the burning house of representatives

because it was really all the people from around the world that had kind of been like

what's going on in your place? What's going We're we're all Yeah, we're kind of building it all together like

different communities, but we have similar strains and and even our contrast can kind of provide some perspective, you know, like or or match a thing like like Abby Abby was one of uh St. Abby or Stabby, she was one of three regionals for for New York and they had like five re five email list. It was just chaos. They not enough space and and I was like, dude, I have a tiny network and I have we have so much space. Like there was a whole arts institute We we ended up doing our first regional burn inviting

leaders from Boston and New York and Philly to be like come on up like we've got so much space just come and enjoy the weekend see what it's like to be a participant again instead of having to

spearhead all do do all the time it's like nice to be be

yeah how long did you do the regional contact thing for

Yeah. So I was a I was a RC from 05 to09 for for New Hampshire Vermont in Maine. So about five years and then um passed the torch on to three different people for each state which was really wonderful and then I moved to Austin, Texas because they were sort of as far as I was concerned they were I mean they were the initiation and inception of the regional network and at the time they had just burnt a clock tower on down in downtown Austin.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like this is shifting from just burner culture now we're going into civic

exposure and and this and I was really turned on by the regionals. Pat Weaten and um George Pap and Chris Lord, they

what they were speaking to in pod discussions was just so innovative and curious and humble and wisdom and wise and really like

we're just part of the experiment too. Like like their format for governing was so slapstick and I just I was like you can do that.

Oh my god, that's f****** that's hilarious. I want to be a part of that. So So I moved there and and immediately uh Pat Wheaten was really my sort of red carpet. it to move to Austin. And

uh immediately I assumed the position they had just sort of created this for the community of regional art ambassador.

And so I was the regional art ambassador for Burning Flip two years.

And right before that I went to to nowhere too. I was going to regionals all over the world because

New Hampshire was so tiny. We didn't we had

Firefly was a Boston regional and I had gone to that and it it wasn't

Well, Firefly is a Boston regional but it's in Vermont.

That's true. Yeah. It's a little confusing. And and Peter Durand was the co- co- regional for

Boston. Yeah.

And he also didn't even know Chris Wagner was the other co. He was sort of the one who was, as far as I know, he was very enigmatic. He's Katie Hazard's husband now, you know.

Yeah.

Um but she's the art director for Burning Man. And um so he's a little more like out from behind the curtain, but he he had a very Wizard of Oz to to me and Peter at the time were like, "Who is this guy? What's he doing? And where is this? And what's going on? And I had just done a pyrochnic workshop. And so Peter and I built these little fireflies in the fashion of a man, you know, with like the ribbing and the waxed canvas and

three-foot sparkler antenna. And

that's cool.

We had braided their little tails. They were like a series of fountains, you know, those ones that really up in the air.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But we had done like six on their butts and braided those together. So when they took off, it was like a jet. They almost knocked themselves over

and that was the only thing that initiated the that year because it was so wet and damp and they had riddled it with fuel and pyrochnics, they had just dumped aerials in there. It was like the most haphazard burn I had ever been to and and I did ranger training and and I was just like we are not abiding by any of those that protocol right sheer pandemonium and Peter and I were both just like what the f***.

Yeah.

In our name the wild west early days. Yeah,

it was awesome but it wasn't my um I was interested in. I went to Rebirth in Hawaii. I went to Nowhere in Spain. I I went to the Philadelphia Experiment. And anytime I was in a different region, I just check out what their burner

scene was like because it was always different. There's always a different flavor and

expression. And I just loved that, you know, it's like

So, what about uh nowadays? Like, how are you maintaining your involvement in the Burning Man community?

Oh, that's a good question. Um, it's interesting. I mean, I'm 20 years in plus, and I feel like I've not like I've done my time and I'm over it in any way, shape, or form, but I've I've I've been from manager to minion and direct. I've I've had big hats and been behind the scenes and I'm sort of uh what like my most recent uh affiliation I suppose would be with Loveurn down in Miami.

Yeah. Yeah. They've been in the Burning Man news uh as of late.

Yes. Yeah. They just kind of relinquished their regional status um because they're not abiding by sort of the the org's protocol of being a nonprofit. And you know, I I know all of the the sort of four people that run the ship.

Um Grant Glenn, Prosperity, uh Brian, and and Jack Trash, and they they work really well together. That that module works for them having a board of directors. Um

you know, and they're not they're not going to sell it. They don't have like huge assets. They have like two rotting containers full of It's their quarter master. It's just like their tools and stuff. You know what I mean? Like all goes right back

into the event. And they're one of the biggest generators of of arts grants and

I mean millions of dollars and and also donating to the org too. So So I'm working with their art team this year and I've I've

I've I've been there working for Charlie Smith in the art of such and such. We built the FG Muncher three years ago because they have like effigy restrictions based on fire and wind. So They had little little effiges that we could drop into the muncher that would consume them. And that

that's cool.

That was a fun project to work on. And then and then I worked with ESD my second year. And then last year uh which is emergency services department. And then last year I worked with um DBW, Department of Public Works, and helped build the effigy. And then this year I'll work for Hartery. So I it's kind of a little microcosm of how I've dealt with the man to each year. I've tried to work with a different department.

Yeah. other than my my regional stint was probably my longest devotion to one thing. Uh second in place would be uh restoration. So I've worked in the restoration department

several years and I've done done resto. I was the site or the test team administrator in 2019. The first time that that position was offered. I helped train

pretty much the whole Resto team each day. I'd take five different people and we do those radial line sweeps the BLM comes in and does at the end. And that sort of ensures contract for the next year. So, uh I was able to train at like a waiting list. We had so much fun and we we'd go out and do all the honorarium projects. We do sight like like red spots in the city and just kind of up.

I kind of felt like we were like this green shotgun blast of the BLM just does random uh GPS points and so at least we we knew that on the map we'd have like green spots all over the place. So

So you've done like almost everything. I'm just trying to

I've done almost everything. Yeah. Like what other departments have you not worked? It's like we need vehicles. Uh

uh I have not done vehicles. Yeah, it's kind of wild when you start to get into Burning Man as a as a city.

I mean it is not a festival. It there are festival components of it of course but no festival has an airport and a post office and a operating water, plumbing, electricity, roads. I mean like DPW alone blankets so much of operations. I I haven't worked in every department in DPW. know, but I've worked um so I'll I'll rattle off a little bit of my Bernie man resume if

Sure.

I can try to keep it under under two minutes here.

I think we blew past that like the 20 minutes.

Yeah. So, starting with uh well the regional network and then I started in 200 I think it was around five I I read the honorarium list and there was this project called the dragon smelter and um Danny Mackarini who's a third generation jeweler in San Francisco. Uh he has a beautiful shop there. He he fashioned the only ring that Larry would ever wear and he made he made Will's Will and Crimson's uh wedding rings. I was there when he gave them to them.

A very a significant uh jeweler decorator in the background, but very an awesome humble

uh individual who was doing this project called the dragon smelter. And and he would take cans from aluminum camp, smelt them down in his dragon fashioned foundry and then pour them into open fa open face relief molds right there on the playa.

I was like, "What?"

I mean, I read through the honorariums and I'm like, "This project's so cool." And I wrote to him and said, "Your project's so cool." And wow, you're doing like real time recycling in this industrial art, this processbased. Wow. Wow. Wow. And with my experience in the foundry, I'm just like, whoa. And he's like, wait, you have you have experience in the foundry? Oh, no. I mean, do you want to be part of our team? And Boom. I met him that year and I was in spats and I'm the slag maiden and I'm facing the crucible and and it was just like

once the immediiacy to not just interface and meet the artists but to be a part of it immediately like it just kind of blew my mind. That's continuously been a theme. Um and has inspired me to contact a lot of my heroes. I I love architecture. That's sort of my my greatest passion and and I've met almost all of my architectural hero and been able to meet and work with them

because Bernie man let me know. You can just write them an email and they'll they'll likely respond.

So, do you think Bernie man kind of like helped you give you that kind of courage or which is like oh like I can just go meet and connect with people even if we've never met before like

Yeah. Yeah. And also this im well the the principle of immediiacy if not now when like if if I don't what's the worst that can happen if I write to my favorite person and I say hey I love what you've brought to me. And who isn't going to be like, "Wow, thanks."

Yeah.

At least, you know, like that would be the nice thing to do if if you're not too egotistical and like don't have too much time in your day to respond to your

I don't think there would be very many people who would just be like, "Get lost, loser. I get compliments all the time." You know,

you know what's a trip is how So I I used to in in Austin, this is hilarious. I'd drive around and I'd see homes that I loved.

Uhhuh.

And I'd write the homeowners postcards, anonymous postcard be like, "Well, with my name my website and my email and I'd say, "Hey, I'm a designopile. I love design and I love your home. I'd love to learn more about it and I know it's kind of creeper to hear from a weirdo for like stranger, but here's my website. Here's my email if you're open to conversing. I'm I'm just sort of interested."

Every single homeowner not only responded but invited me into their home except for one individual who was like, "I honor my privacy." But then he gave me like six different artic about his amazing home, including that gave me so many details about his personal life that

like too much.

I was like, this is actually kind of ironic. This is like the Barbara Strean effect where you want to keep something covert, but it gets blown up, you know.

Anyways, I uh um

I mean, I imagine like all of those people probably wanted to show off their creation, you know, that like they spent all this time like like you know, creating and crafting and fashioning and here somebody is like asking them the pertinent question. questions about it and you know like I'm like who wouldn't be like it's like oh let me tell you about that you know I've just been waiting for someone to come and ask me about that people come up when they just like want to sell like you know cookies or something you know

they want something from you most people that contact you want something you know and to to be contacted and just be appreciated is is unfortunately unique

yeah like and I've I've got like three guys that are stemming to mind I I'll just kind of briefly. Bart Prince, the architect. I drove by his studio in Albuquerque. I wrote him a postcard. He invited me to his studio. I met him within a month. And it wasn't about him being like, "Oh, and this is my stuff and things." He was like, "What is it in you that is so fascinated in me?" Like the the the curiosity gets reflected back. It gets reciprocated in a really interesting way. Brian Fraud, who is was the architectural director behind The Dark Crystal and um and and the Muppets and and just fairies in general. I I took a Muppet magic class in college and he came to our course.

I got to thank him for molding my childhood. Like, wow, your your creative

vision just it it just sparked my imagination in so many ways and thank you. And and he immediately said, no, thank you. And I was like, wait, what? No, I'm thanking you. Even Danger Ranger, I love him so much. I attribute so much credit to him for

I think he's the grandappy of Bernie man as far as I'm concerned. term with the cacophony roots and

oh yeah

artworks and taz temporary autonomous zones and then he's still so active and awesome and snarky and he was in the commissary passing out cards just this year he he's one of the only board members that continually interfaces with the public

you know what I mean like and is still like participatory in a really cacophinous way and

I remember at a party in San Francisco many many moons ago and I and in Austin when he came to do a lecture both times I approached him and said, "I just want to thank you so much for being so wonderful. You are just so full of wonder." And he both times he has reflected right back to me and been like, "No, you you are the goddess energy that I admire and bowed out to or whatever." And I'm like, "Wa blah blah blah blah wa too much there guy." You know, like I'm sitting here trying to say thank you. And you're

that's an incredible community. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And and and how that fostered You know, I was just realizing that I I would not have had I I have a permanent public art piece in the city of Austin. That would not have happened without Bernie man.

Oh, yeah.

Talk about talk about that. What's what's what piece you have there?

Yeah. So, I have a a piece called Pods and um one of the directors from Art and Public Places in Austin, Anna Bradley, she's a burner and during South by Southwest one year, she decided to sort of, you know, she wanted to branch out not only into Austin itself, but into the burner network and say, "Hey, why don't you guys put in a a grant? Just put in a concept. Let's let's get some not amateur but upand cominging artists to get some interface and support within the city."

And so I I formulated a team with two uh welders that I loved. And we designed this project for a women, infants, and children's center. It was called Pods. It was sort of three uh mild steel and stainless steel sculptures. They're meant to sort of represent a a whimsical familial structure, not necessarily mother, father, son or mother, son, who whatever families are. It could be the aunt. Yeah. And the child, you know what I mean? Like that that was sort of the intention was to make it a little more playful. But they're huge. They're like 21 foot tall is the biggest one with a sixoot.

Um, and they're permanently installed on the east side of Austin. And

wow.

And even during that project, I I derived a lot of inspiration from the artist Ned Khan. And I I contacted him to Thank him. And he was like, "Tell me more about your project." Isn't that interesting? So like without Burning Man as the it's like there are so many little influences as I sit here and reflect on

uh you know I I I read I listened to some of your other podcasts and you'd said something like I don't want to frame it like what would your life be like without Burning Man but because that's kind of inconsiderable. It's it's such a hypo but

but honestly I I know that with it. Um, I have such a rich creative community. I've I've fostered so many connections.

All right. Well, we'll get around to that.

Yeah.

But, uh, well, how about we let's go back to the beginning. Like, where where does it all start for a little baby Amy?

Little Bunky baby.

Yeah.

Uh, little Amy Bunker was born outside of Boston in the blizzard of 78.

Like my I think my dad even like dragged my mom to the hospital on a sled because the freaking roads were too crazy. But um yeah, I grew up in the northeast in the frigid northeast uh in a very in tiny little white towns and uh had a very tiny experience and then um I sort of had a westward expansion. I I like my K through 12 was 500 kids and then I went to a high school that was 500 kids and then I went to college and my class was 500 kids and I was just like whoa

like my little got into a bigger bigger pond um as I moved west. So I moved to Colorado first for my my high school. I went to Boulder, Colorado. My mom was the um the executive dean for the MBA programs at the University of Colorado in Denver

and she was a real go-getter. Um and and yeah, much to say about that, but uh we lost her unfortunately in 97. So I've spent most of my adult life without her

and and felt homeless. Our mothers are our homes. And when she passed, I never had another place that was home for me. And so arriving in Black Rock Desert and hearing welcome home.

Yeah.

Um landed in a really significant way for me that was like, "Oh my god, I can call this temporary city, this mirage in the desert for a week. This is ultimately my home. base is where I feel most at home.

So your mom passed away in 97. You started hear about Bernie man like 99 2000. You finally go 2001.

And actually I want a presence that my my father's been out to Bernie man like three times. He's worked DPW.

He was my Yeah. He was my assistant for restoration management on the temple in 2013.

Wow.

And his first year was 2011 when he worked on the circle of regional effiges project with us from Austin. We did the Oraoris project. So So he got to come in with that community which I I just loved so much. They're so humble and effective. We we finished our project first. We helped a bunch of other teams.

Yeah.

Like we're there. Yeah. We're doing the thing. It was like it was all slapstick once again. Like the the the meetings are are so fluid and easy and fun and effective. And dad got to see that and be a part of that team in a way that I mean he just he developed such I I would wager to say that my father de developed the most profound connections he had in his lifetime.

Yeah.

At Burning Man.

I saw him cry with other men like like with a a male friend of ours. He came to visit my dad at camp and I went back to check in on them and they were both in a moment and my dad was crying to this young man and I just kind of like step away from the men emoting. Give them their space. Do not need to know what's happening there. Just know that it's really good that there's some safe space. that that my friend allowed for my father to go someplace wherever it was whatever that that thing was that was so

what kind of man was your father I mean was he kind of like a stern New England kind of rugged backcountry

my parents were uh they met and married at Stamford so my mom was a psychologist and my father was a civil engineer my my dad was definitely militant he was raised like boy scout scouts honor good decent very good kind Um but not uh but very like what's the best way to describe militant. I mean he was a veteran. He was a CB. Um so he

engineer too.

Yeah. Yeah. So so he wasn't front front lines military but he he saw the effects of war. He saw his friends leave and not come back, you know. I mean he and and only at Burning Man was he able to describe and share some of those stories with me because the guard was down. and the the space was safe.

So is he the combat veteran like when or

No, so he was a CB. So he did infrastructure, you know, that's that's a branch of the Navy, but it really facilitates all all branches of the military. And so that they'd build bridges, they take bridges out, they you know, sort of infrastructure based. And he was a leader of a crew. And then when he came back to the States, he was a foreman for construction um on the metro station in DC. So he had this really significant position and then my parents ended up getting their real estate license and that didn't really work out. My mom went back to get her MBA in the early 80s and that's when my dad kind of stood down and my mom became the main bread winner and my father kind of checked out from societ. He was like never going to have a boss again. No

book can do even though he was militant he was very dis like anti-isestablishmentarianism you know what I mean like

definitely not into authority to his dying day. um no one could tell him what to do. So

what do you think about the the structures on the play because I mean it's not exactly

authority but there is like a functional kind of hierarchy because like things need to function right

yeah I mean he was just he would get so stareyed when you talk about Bernie man even

he he unfortunately passed away this year while I was burning man and I I made the decision to go

because he he urged me to he said like his voice would change He'd just be like, "Oh, Amy. Oh, it's just I just know how much you love it out there. It's just so cool out there." I mean, he really from what maybe would be perceived as freaks, uh, he found friends, you know? I mean, it was just like, "Wow, these these are just people and they're actually really cool and nice and, you know, I saw him have receive hugs that he was just wasn't a hugger." You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing.

His crow's feet just expanded while he out there. You know, it was like there's just like undeniable impact. Um

Oh, yeah.

That having him come and see it was very different than me telling him a story about it.

Well, how many years did it take for you to like tell him these stories and then for him to finally be like, "Okay, I'll go."

Yeah, great question. It was on my 10th year, actually. So, I So, because through the the regional network, I'd get a free ticket.

I would gift someone a free ticket every year. So, I would indoctrinate. I would sort of be like, "Come under my wing and if you're really interested. I'd like to show you this new town. Have fun. I'm like I'm not your tour guide. I'm just sort of like your uh

initiator like you know whatever.

And on the 10th year I I in 2010 I was camped with Camp by the Ton which was a Dan Dos man camp. It was just like huge. Everything was massive. We had an ice maker in our camp and it was ridiculous. We had a grand piano. We had a we had this incredible uh technologist on our crew named PE and he had fashioned a lot of different things for the camp which were just kind of mind-blowing. But one of the things he offered as a gift to the city was a satellite phone.

So anyone could make a call anywhere in the world for 2 minutes

and we would have a line out the camp every day because this was back in 2010 when uh in

I mean some it's it's a a hive mind of Google was there. Google were my neighbors in 2008 or nine in center camp actually.

Um and so there's a lot there technology is available, but this was like to the public and and so many people were like, "Oh my god, you I interfaced with someone, my daughter who was having an accident, my dog needed something, I found out about a new job promotion, whatever the thing happened, we created this really awesome little conduit for them."

And so it came to Sunday and I was like, I haven't made any calls. Like, I should I should use this thing, you know? Like I'm just sitting there and I'm like, you know what? I'm going to call my dad. And I'm like, hey dad, I'm just trying to describe the scene here. Like there's a grand piano and there's a 20 foot wide fire circle and there's a a sculpture made of a a meditating figure that's probably 10 foot tall on top of a container made out of recycled gears and bolts and chain and oh we've got an ice maker in our camp in the middle of the desert. I mean just like these unbelievable little factoids about real time me right now in the middle of here and I'm like you know what you need to comes. I need to invite him to come. Why didn't I invite that? So,

I was just wondering what he was thinking like as you're describing this scene, which just like Amy is hitting the bong again.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean you you try to describe and and the thing is is I don't I don't do drugs at Burning Man. It's too risky in my opinion.

Yeah.

There's too much of a recovery time.

I'm too old for that know anyway, too. Yeah. In fact, it's so much more enjoyable when you're like, you know, sober and can enjoy in

Well, you have in my opinion, you kind of have to be you you have to maintain full situational awareness in a high altitude desert environment that's trying to kill you at all times.

It's the

I mean, why would you want to disable that? And and you're also trying to decipher what's even real. Did I just see that? Is that really real? Because

Okay, I got to tell you this experience that like I mean, I've had a number of experiences like this where it's like you're completely totally stone sober, but then you feel like you're tripping. Like I think I told the story like on another episode where I think it was like dusk somewhere in the early 2000s and like the sun had set and we're like looking up at the sky and there was like this this like light and then there was like two lights and there was like three lights and they're traveling across the sky. It was almost like like a string of pearls, right? And we're just like and our first thought was just like

oh my god, how did they do that?

You know, and we were just like somebody did something and we don't know how they did and we're all kind of like wondering how they did that. And then it was only like nine months later that the people were like, "Oh, yeah. You remember those lights that one day that like one night at Burning Man?" That was actually a Russian booster rocket. It had like the the rocket itself had gone up in like the 80s or 90s. It's just like after all these years, it finally like was coming back into the atmosphere just at that right time, just at that right place.

But the whole time we were just like, "Oh my god, the artist that created that, that's incredible. Well, I got to I got to figure out how they did that, you know? Well, that reminds me in 2007, the man burned early and there was a there uh

it was it was ignited. It was incinerated. But um

but that was on a I think a Sunday or Monday night and at the same time there was a full moon eclipse and my new com comrade and lifelong dear friend Saw and I went out to the trash fence to see this eclipse. And when we got out there, he had offered me some mushrooms. And I was like, "Oh, no, that's cool. I like I want to know that what I'm seeing is real." And eclipses are kind of low and slow and maybe a little boring and I just really want to be attuned to it, you know, and like be present, but I'm like, "Great trip, buddy. Like, if I don't want to, no judgment, no whatever. Like, if if you want to go for it, go."

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And he was like, "No, actually, I want to stay on the same wave as you."

And an hour or two into the eclipse, mind you, we're way out at Trash Fence, so the man is way it's just got sort of part of the blur of the city in the background. And we see a fire. We see a really big fire.

This on Sunday or Monday when not people are still building. So, we're like, or anything there.

We're like squidgy squidgy eyes. Is that a fire? Is that really No, we can't really. That's not really what we're seeing. And then when we rode back into town, sure as s***, what we had seen was Paul Addis had set the man ablaze. And um and so it was we didn't even believe our eyes and yet what we saw was real.

Yeah.

And that that alone once again was the sort of like what if I was on some other dimension or if my perspective was you?

Yeah.

It would have It just it would have uh twisted my my experience in that moment, my story, my my my credit and valid validation of whatever the event was too.

Yeah.

You know, this isn't to discount psychonautic. Uh

no, everything has its place, but

for it and and Bernie man can be conducive for that in a lot of ways, but for me personally, it's like I I think I got drunk once in 2004. I made some really bad decisions. Um that I thought was really funny at the time. I like kind of destroyed my camp and was like, "Aha."

And then the next morning was like, "What did I do to my tent?" Like, "Oh no, I remember it was so funny the night before." But yeah, the recovery rate, I mean, it's just exacerbated up there at a high altitude when you're dehydrated. No m even if you're chugging water and electrolytes all day.

Oh, yeah. Very human.

I mean, earlier on, like my standard process was like Uh it's like it we'd show up, we get there, it's usually kind of like late and like everyone's all like like supercharged and it's like we've been like packing and shopping and preparing and driving and traveling for days, you know, and we get there and everyone's all super excited and then and then we start partying and it's and well in the the theme song, you know, the Jenny came up with the whole uh party party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b**** because it's like that's pretty much the the order of things like when you kind of go experience. I mean, I'm sort of on like the bill build like

but there I I think um there was there's something you know Lmark actually really helped inform my volunteerism.

Uh one of my one of the managers for the advanced course when I was supporting my partner going through it, he had presenced a possibility of invisible impeccability. And what that meant for him was that we want to make sure everything's perfect for the container. for for the people to do the work that they need to do in this workshop, whatever. That means all the water is going to be filled, the tissue containers, there's no specks on the carpet. Also, they don't even know that it's happening. They don't even know that we're there doing this production, providing this container for them. So, the level of service and humility that he presenced for me at the inception point of my volunteerism was like, not only do you not do it for credit, you actually don't even want to be you don't you want to clean the house and not even let them know that you were there. That's the ultimate service.

Well, I think that's the difference between like Bernie man and like Disneyland, right? You know, because it's like with Bernie man, it's it's like

experience, you know? I mean, you go and you consume and you you feel

in that knows.

Yeah. But I mean, not only that, like both

you're like witness to this grandeur. You're not in it. You're not part of it. You're not Mickey.

You're not Minnie. You're not the princess, you're there to admire that as some

separate.

Well, also it's just like they're there to entertain you. But but also I was thinking more just like the rules and the structure. I think with with Burning Man, it's kind of more like like a skeleton kind of framework where something like like a Disneyland was just like no no no this is the facade, you know, like

well and this is the catered experience. You go down, you go on this ride, you buy that thing and then you wear the ears and then you get picture in front of the castle and

you know at Bernie man it's like I mean it is such

look out of the line. I can't.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's a very curated experience where I feel like in in Black Rock City when I wake up, it's my favorite city in the world. I I wake up, I have my general needs met. I'm I'm usually wellfed, showered, read, or uh slept. Um I I I need I need to take care of that for myself, otherwise I'm going to have a kind of miserable time in the background.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um and and then once all those needs are complete, it's kind of like a bare bone like the world is the oyster. You just become this little pinball and I might have a what, when, where's, set, time, place, thing I want to do or see or go to, but that never ever works as planned.

And it's often the I oh this is a quote I wanted to presence. Uh this is my favorite description of Bernie man.

And Michael Michael Danger Ranger

brought this to me. Uh it's synchronicity beyond mathematical probability.

Wow, I like that.

When I said that to him, when I paid him a compliment at that party in San Francisco, I was like, you have something And you said something that I just feel like really encapsulates it because it is I I bounce around the city and I think, "Oh, you know what? I'd love some horchata." Two seconds later, ice cold orchata. Like you just can't

you can't make that s*** up. It's just it's just like this switched on little hive mind and it's like I want to it's not I want I want I want but just sort of it's like

vibration thought frequency possibility. And we're all little monkey minds together in some way there. It's way beyond our our Yeah. But even more than that, it's like I've even I've experienced so many times like somebody like encountering just randomly somebody that they knew from like 10 years ago at some like internship in Washington DC and they're like what are you doing here? Like what are you doing here? You know like

I have six stories about that this year alone. I mean in terms in the same time in the same place passing across with someone or uh and or crossing a path with someone and hearing their voice and being like oh my god and boom we're an interface. and we spend the rest of the day together. You know what I mean? It's like such an interesting time, moment, uh I I dare I say synchro destiny, that sort of thing. I mean, everything happens for a reason, those sorts of concepts, but it just happens so frequently out there. It's it's

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that kind of gets to the third part of this show is uh what is the impact of Burning Man on you in your life?

Oh, boy. Howdy.

Yeah. Big short episodes.

Yeah. five words or less. You know,

people, places, things aren't better, abundance, you know, like um just cup overflowing in terms of uh how much there is out there and and um

what impact has it had on your life? I mean, because it seems like uh when you were in school and you were casting about and you were like, "Oh, I'll study this or study that and then you get introduced to this and then you know sort of taken your life in this other direction.

Yeah. I mean I I I did my undergraduate in art and I didn't really want to depend on art to be my stream of income because then that would sort of compromise my self-expression in some I wanted to like keep it cordoned away so that it could be pure and free and not dictated by some commissioner's needs you know

um and so I went into the service industry and education the field of educ ation was really my main jam for like a decade. I was a teacher in after school programs and I worked in special education at the high school level and

teens are really my jam. Like I just teens are such a hard time for all humans. You know, this isn't just an American phenomena. I think

even historically that at 14 is when kids were really adults. Once you menstruate and can have your own family, that's historically when you can fly the coupe.

And nowadays it's like not until you're 18. So there's this like very long chapter in there that's like I am an independent individual with my own thoughts and feelings and yet I still remain dependent on this caretaker that I both love and despise. And so there's this back and forth of like how do you reconcile that um and couple that with peers?

Yeah.

What it is to be steeped in the peer environment at that time. There is no other world than what your social what your classmates are what and I can't even imagine for the teens at this point with uh online exposure and cyber bullying and all that b*******. I mean, they don't they don't even have relationships. They don't break up

in person

or even on the phone. It's all by text now, you know? It's like there's such this interpersonality.

And so I I think it's important to have an ally during that time to be like, dude, this is not all there is. Like there is another side to this. you can get through this. Here are some tools and tips and tricks to just deal. You know what I mean? Like and and trying to bring teens back to what I don't know. I don't know. Either way, that's been my passion. That's been my most most interesting point of service, I guess.

Are you still working in that now?

No. No. I finished my um my sort of career with teaching in 2008 when I finished my graduate degree at UNH in um alternative building structures. in sustainability education and design is what my my master's degree is in. And then I started working with Earth Ships and Arcoanti and sort of looking into alternative building designs. And um

so what exactly is Earth Ships?

Oh, Earth Ships are like uh self-contained homes that are generally built out of recycled materials, pound tires, and bottle or can walls. They produce their they collect their own water. They produce their own energy. They produce their own food. They deal with their own waste. through like Blackwater Planter Gardens and stuff and they're meant to be kind of autonomous living systems.

Huh.

Um I mean Michael Reynolds describes it as I in Trash Warrior, Garbage Warrior, the documentary on he says something like um he's not busy arguing with people that are sinking on the Titanic. He's sitting there building life rafts and so Earth ships are life rafts. They're autonomous buildings that kind of

re reduce our dependency on the larger grids and systems at place

uh

and kind of put us back in the driver's seat of like what does the individual need and how can we do that for ourselves without having to be relying on these larger systems, you know?

Oh,

so yeah, really. And they're they exist on

Yeah, they exist on every continent, save Antarctica, and they can be built. They're generally like U-shaped forms with a southern glazing so that they can get passive solar and

charge a a thermal mass of the building and

uh they use recycled materials and yeah, I mean, just do a little do a little uh Google search and you'll have a notic rabbit hole to go down.

Yeah. No, because I've noticed over the years that you've posted various things and I'm always like, "What is this? This is fascinating." And especially like the gardening stuff and I was just like, "Oh, yeah." Yeah. So, are you

So, you're still involved with it now? Is that what you're doing now or?

No. No. So, in 2008, I was lucky enough to help pound tires on their educational center in Ta. And then shortly thereafter, I worked on a project down in Jamaica that was sort of my described as his like crown jewel. It was just this gorgeous two circular homes on the top of a petrified coral atole right on the western edge of this island. So the

the sunset was just like right between and

yeah I worked with them for a little while and then I lived at Arosanti which is another sort of experimental urban laboratory in the Arizona desert that was designed by Paulo Saleriian Italian architect that I also was lucky enough to work with while he was still alive and in his final chapter. And um and then I was just more like, okay, I've done all these alternative buildings. What about actual code construction? Because this is all well and good and these bubbles out there in the in the desert,

but what about like in the world? Like and Austin was sort of the the forefront of green building. Every cover cover of Dwell magazine was a new construction in Austin. So So I decided to um settle in there and and deconstruct and reconstruct a building in city proper according to code but using as much alternative stuff as I could kind of mustered to get in there and

uh and that was my my one of my greatest learning platforms you know um and right now currently I'm really happy to say that I I've kind of circled full circled around and I'm just in the last month I've been working with a 3D printing company here in New Hampshire of all places

um our head offices are in New York but right now even like my boss was the one who just uh pinged in on this interview. We're doing a 3D residential casting. Um so it's 3D printed concrete and I just finished work on a 3D printed artificial reef

uh that'sated to go off the coast of Miami. So these these are prototypes to generate fundraising to have these reefs sort of stimulate ecourism and let natural reefs get back to their normal.

Um and then also propagate new reefs and

uh create like a a cool underwater sculpture park essentially where the the fishes are the fishes get free rent.

Yeah. So close to Miami. That's that's a good place to be a little fish.

Yeah. So these these earth ships and this this stuff these concepts I mean is that good for like like in New England where like the cold weather too because you said like a lot of it was out in the desert. But

what's hilarious is uh in 2008 when I was writing my dissertation for it we had a a major blizzard here that that shut down the date.

Uhhuh.

And as I'm writing my my sort of grand finale about the project and working with Earth Ships and and Arosanti and um uh we're out of power. I'm writing by candle light. We we have to flush our system with anifreeze. We have to figure out I have to like charge my computer by my car.

And I knew there was an Earth ship in Durham, New Hampshire where the university is.

They don't disclose necessarily where it is because it's a private residence, but I knew that there was one here and I'm and the whole week I was thinking to myself, they are probably just fine. They've got water. They've their power might be a little comp I mean they just have to get the snow off their she their solar panels but but they have enough incubation in their thermal mass and they probably have food production and they pro you know it's like they're this little hub little island of self-sufficiency and the rest of us are up s*** Creek because the power went out with the heavy ice and then we had a snowstorm that buried everything. So some people they couldn't find the lines. I mean some people were out of power for like two weeks. You know it shut off the whole state. I mean we were in a state of emergency for like two for at least one day everything was shut down.

But then to propose this to my university professors and be like never was there a better time to propo to consider these autonomous structures and the benefit of them especially in the even here in this frigid environment you know.

Yeah.

They're sort of mecca down in uh town. house is in in uh New Mexico. They have the greater world community and they have two other communities that are I mean well the greater world has over a hundred earth ships on it. That's really the largest hive of um and you can go and stay in them with an Airbnb or or do tours and the educational center that it's yeah it's a it's a fascinating endeavor and and there are pros and cons to everything, you know. Um yeah, so I

Well, do you think that like your experience with Burning Man kind of like influenced your uh like for you because I remember you said you were originally like in like casting and like an art but then you went to like architecture and like building I mean

it's all interconnected my friend. Yeah. I mean my my work with uh printing lithography informs how you build a building you know it's just it's just fascinating how um different processes can inform one another. And I I that's where my my sort of bread and butter is is not so much whatever the final object is. It's like it's I'm I'm really processoriented. So, um

I do want to presence I do want to just rattle off my brag sheet a little bit because Sure. Go ahead.

Because there are a few points of interest in here that I just I just want to like highlight in terms of that diversity of experience and like I worked for petrol for um fuel on on brand new.

Okay.

So, petrol stands for powering everything that runs on on location. Isn't that awesome? And uh it was a hell hell job. I mean, we have hell station. It was it was uh really hard work. But but that helped me really appreciate petroleum industry in the real world. Going to gas stations and being and seeing oil tankers filling these tanks and being like, "Oh my god, I can appreciate that dude doing that job right now."

Oh yeah.

What that service is and and I can actually really appreciate it with a boots on the ground perspective of how poses,

you know what I mean? Where I just might not have even noticed that before. Um, so let's see. Yeah, I started off as the um as a regional contact and then when I went to Spain, I connected with a few people at nowhere and I actually became a cultural atache

for uh for Spain. That didn't really equate to much other than answering some some curiosities from local burners about what that meant. It going over

I was going to say, what does that mean?

Yeah, it's just as sort of an attache, like you're you're sort of a point of uh connection. So, if someone knew that I knew about that, they could be like, "Hey, I want to go. Uh what does that look like?" And I'm like, "Oh, well, let me tell you. And if you want to get involved with the camp, I know these people that could do that or here's a good place to stay or have you considered XYZ," which they probably haven't. You know, those sorts of considerations. And then they bring stuff to my attention that I hadn't considered before that I could then interface

with the nowhere board and get them connected so they can get their questions answered real time.

Almost like a cultural concierge kind of thing.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Exact. Yes. No accessories or anything. I just get to use the asterct at the end of atache.

Yeah.

Um Oh, in 2009 I was blessed enough to be the regional seat on the Black Rockck Arts Foundation grant review board.

Um and that was so delightful to help you three 300 plus grants and be able to help make those people's dreams come alive

and I got to sit on the board with um Harley Dubo was on the board.

Michael Best was on the board. Har Larry Harvey was on the board. I mean I got to sit with the big wigs and sit there and and

go over hundreds of people's dreams and then make them happen. What a

is there anything better to do in the world?

Yeah. Yeah.

And then I did that again in Austin. So I I sat on the Art Garden grant review board for for Burning Flip Side. I did that two years in a row. There were only three of us. Um I I think that's since dissolved or remmanaged somehow. But at the time it was like, "Wow, we got the all like maybe 20 grants. We have so much money from tickets. Like let's just make them all happen. Let's just give a little here and give a little there." And everybody made some. It was just like, "Wow, that was such a cool

Yeah.

What a cool way to interface. make people's possibilities come alive. Um, let's see. I worked on the Dragon Smelter crew with Danny Machiarini casting

recycled aluminum in the middle of the desert. That was great.

Yeah.

And then I started working um for the Department of Public Works in 2009. I helped with um I worked for Gate for postvent doing um sort of management and restoration for their gate operations.

Okay.

And then from there I went on and actually did restor ation proper for the first time. Um then I worked on private art like with the um Dan Dos man in 2010. He and his former partner Karen Couselo. They had a project called the Imaginarium or something. It was like a series of really big um or Exploratorium. I know it's not either of those because it's those are two things, but it was something like that and it was like series of dandelions that were fire breathing. So I helped tend to that project. I met I wasn't a fabricator or anything, but I was involved. Um, in 2011, I brought my dad for the first time and we did the circle of regional effiges. In 2012, I worked for Arctica for ice sales. In 2013, I was lucky enough to be the first um restoration manager for the temple. So, we were the first temple to L&T Leave no temple. We got a a resto award and um that was just such a great crew to work on. Uh, it was Greg Flechman's design, the Temple of Holiness. There was no metal in the structure. It was I was the construction safety lead as well. And and that's where I got my PIA name was Maven because I was I was interfacing for so many different

things for that project that Zack Coffin, our our chief um heavy machine, our our crane operator, who was also an incredible artist and steel and

um he was like, "Wow, you're like you you hold all these hats." And someone else had said, "Yeah, you're like the temple maiden. and and he's like, "No, not maiden. Like a maven."

Yeah.

Was like, "Oo, I don't even know what that means, but I like it." And uh and we actually had the best Wi-Fi in the city at the time. Everyone called it Temple Cafe. So, they'd come out to our our shade structure and sit on our couches and because we had the cream of the crop crew that year. Uh Lightning and Sin were the directors and they just they could just uh cherry pick whoever they wanted, you know. It was it was an awesome crew.

But that was the only time I looked up on the internet was Maven to find out that death which was an expert in her field that shares shares her knowledge and skill with others and that's exactly what I was doing at that time. I was the restoration manager. I was sharing best practices with our crew and you know putting down fly prophylactics having like we had uh billboard vinyl throughout our entire work area. Anything that was sanded was in containment.

Um we had to sand and route every single component on site. which was a huge endeavor to maintain all that sawdust. I mean there were tens of thousands of components because we had pins, locking pins and the LVL struct the structures there was no metal all the hardware.

Wow, that's incredible. Yeah.

Yeah. It was

but also like

Yeah. No, I do have some listeners, you know, who've never been to Burning Man don't know much about it, but like but part of the whole like leave no trace thing. It's like Yeah. Even sawdust.

Well, what is what is actually the number one culprit out there. Uh

but but it must be kind of like hard for some people to imagine which is like oh you have this city of like 70 80 90,000 people you know and you're building all these things and you're burning it. So like and you're worried about sawdust. It's like how would you even get sawdust out? It's just like well as like people say it's like don't let it hit the ground right.

Yeah. Yeah. You don't that's why plyap prophylactics and billboards or and just tarps are so effective in that process.

Um yeah I mean the playa is a a blank canvas. It's the biggest blankst canvas pretty much in the world, I might wager to say.

Yeah,

maybe Antarctica.

Well, well, but considering that's this is where the land speed records have been held, this is where rocket enthusiasts have broken the speed of sound. So, when you consider that the tiniest piece of debris starts to accumulate microchrystalline dust on it, and that's what formulates those dunes. When I was doing restoration, I'd pull a single hair can make a dune.

Really

amazing what tiny So when you think of tiny sawdust or wood chip, you're actually generating anomalies on that surface that then will potentially pose a f****** hazard to bodies in motion.

Yeah.

Especially if they're going the speed of sound, you know, like

so it does kind of have a real term impact and we want to leave it. Absolutely. And we pick up s*** from all types of uh past endeavors. I mean, I've

Oh, I'm sure you guys come across all sorts of exciting things

and unfortunately most recently rebar is one of our biggest culprits because you either don't get it out and then the and then the wa like black rock desert turns into a lake during the winter at times or a roving lake you know everything gets kind of erased and etches sketched down and some of that debris gets buried and

well doesn't some of it work its way to the surface too

that too yeah I mean it's it's a very living it's kind of interesting to consider lake hunt ancient lake hunt basin and and it it moves, it it breathes, it it it shifts, it changes, it expands, it contracts. Um I've seen it in so many I love going out there when no one's there because it's just such a geological

Yeah.

yee-haw zone. I mean, that's where all those car commercials are filmed for a reason because it's just the epitome of of freedom in paradise.

Well, I think that's why Burning Man like you know, like a coffee society like originally went out there because it's like, oh, it's just a super remote location. I mean, he's like, not just like, oh, it's flat and you can't burn stuff. like, yeah, it's it's very it's very remote. So,

it's conducive as a blank canvas. It really allows

Oh, it's the ultimate blank canvas. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, what's uh what's next in the Burning Man uh universe for Amy Bunker?

Oh, wow. That's a great question. Um

well, and I did want to round out I I know we're running out of time and I have so much to say that I did I also worked for Eyes on Art for two years as an assistant manager and that was

What's that?

That's going out at night. So, I wanted to work for the artery. Uh-huh.

I'm not a morning person and they have morning meetings and I was just like, "All right, what's another operation I can do for them?" And they have nighttime operations, eyes on art. So,

the best way I can describe it is we go out at night and we look for things that aren't visible in the dark that might pose a hazard to anybody in motion, whether it be someone, an art car, person on a bike, or someone even walking. So, that's like a piece of rebar, a pile of construction debris, a guideline on a sculpture, anything that someone might run into that needs some type of illumination to be like, "Hey, there's a thing here," you know, and that happens especially during build week because people don't have lighting plans for their piles of construction stuff and and there aren't really laws yet, like the the 5 mile per hour law hasn't really been instilled yet. Um, people haven't gotten their driving permits yet. So, there's a bit of renegade transport in mid in the beginning. of the week and that can pose a lot of hazards.

So, do you guys put like lights on things or are you just going to record it or what do you do?

Yeah, totally. So, it's like it's a whole operation. It's a triarbon copy form. One is left with the artist, one goes to the artery and then we one eyes on art keeps on file. Um, and and this isn't like a you did a wrong thing. It's like a hey, we noticed

we noticed that your thing wasn't lit and we want it to be. So, hey, we lit it for you. We zip tied a a a glow stick. to it or we put a blinky on it or we put a delineator around this really big pile with blinky with delineate or um

some kind of illumination. And hey, these are our resources. We'd like to get them back. So, if you could um come back to the artery, return the resources and if you don't have them, we can provide them to you. We can kind of like check them out and work it out because we don't want you to be so and we don't want you to feel like you did a bad thing. This is a point of education and we have the resources not for everyone all the time. That's sort of the thing is like

Yeah. You only have so many resources. Yeah.

Yeah. So, if they have a blinky light or some glow sticks or a generator with a rope light or something, they can manage that on the fly and then it's not a problem for bodies in motion. Again,

um I really loved that job because it was um it was so cool.

Yeah. I had a small team. I just we had Yeah, I could talk about that for an hour in and of itself. Um

anyways, uh and then most recently I've been with the restoration department doing resto response during the event. Um, and I think I've come to a close with that department. I've worked with them for like four years. I generally run like a really it was a one-year cycle, but in my life, threeear cycles seem to be about the beginning, middle, and end.

Uhhuh.

And so I've gone four years with them. And I I believe it or not, I you gave me a graduated shirt.

And strangely enough, after 20 years, I kind of feel like I've graduated. into some other relationship. I I often joke that Bernie man is my longest term relationship. Um it's lovehate and you know I always go back to it. Uh I love it so much. I in so I didn't go in 20 2004 and then in 2014 I also didn't go because I had this sort of like eh I don't Bernie man isn't what it used to be and it's supposed you know it's just like nah and I stayed home and I baked cookies and I watched whole time.

Oh, absolutely. I took naps and all that stuff and all the modern conveniences, but um but I was glued to the webcam and I listened Oh, yeah.

um BMIR the whole time. And Tom

the whole time I didn't go like Yeah. I was glued to it too. Yeah.

And it's it's kind of sweet because Tom Leaport who uh rest his soul, he um he was my guide on burn night and he's beautiful. Like he was he was sort of mcing the whole night and it was on the fly like okay so now we're going to go to this person be oh now here I am with oh what's going on over there and I felt so I was like I'm with Tom all night this is so cool you know like

so I was still very much there I wasn't like f*** Bernie man I'm never going again I was like a

well I think that's a phase that like you know

you know

yeah but I think if we go for Burning Man for long enough I think it's a phase that we all kind of go through you know even like imply Pete my episode what was it number 10 you know because he's been going this next year we went 30 years straight and you know I could tell just in a conversation with him it's like h you know maybe getting a little bit jaded or like a little you know it's like a kids today you know

oh absolutely well my dad's first Bernie man in 2010 there was a sticker that came out that year that said um it was so funny I gave it to him it said this is not your dad's Bernie man

it's changed it's supposed to

oh yeah

and that's it and I was like oh wow it really isn't because I wanted because in this situation There was a real role reversal. I was the sort of like

and he was the virgin. And I'm like, "Let me tell you like you like he'd go out on an adventure and I'm like, "Where's your water?" And he's like, "I don't need water."

And I'm like, "Dad, you know, like thank you for your service. I get that you're a veteran, but you're also a human."

Yeah.

High altitude desert environment that's trying to kill you. So, yeah, you need hydration.

But also, you can kind of use that veteran experience on him, turn it around him. It's just like, no, as a veteran, it's like you're you you'd be experienced. It's like if you were in the military and you're going out into the desert, you would have to have so many supplies and like oh that's right you know I'm like yeah

well but no inferior can tell a superior officer what to do

just gently reminding the commanding officer you know

yeah know there was definitely some ranking going on and he's a taurus on top of that so you know

but it's interesting because like I I keep coming back to like like the thing that uh no matter how many conversations I have with people like I think like it's just it's this sense of like family or connection you know it's like even if like years go by and you know the friends that you go with or family like things change or you know it's like

everything's evolutionary

but in all it keeps the thing that that like okay what do you think it is that like that keeps you coming back

the glue. Yeah. Well and I've I've gone through this sort of reason lifetime with many different tribes and communities and friendships even throughout this

these last two decades and um and that's the sort of evolution of things is is we connect with people and then our our interests shift and change and we get to migrate into different pastures, you know. So, so for me, I mean, what keeps me involved is really uh the the people, the art, the creativity, the possibility, uh there's no other event like if if and when I go to a paying concert now, I'm just kind of disgusted along along the way of like h the trash and the commerce and the

more of a consumer kind of thing like Yeah. Yeah. And I just I'm like not and I don't want to feel like Bernier than thou and I'm on some type of like,

you know, everyone should do it our way or something, but I've seen real benefits of

what burner culture fosters in the real world, in the default world, so to speak, you know.

Oh, yeah.

Um, so I think that's a big impetus for me. Um,

what's keeping me involved right now? I'm actually I'm noticing myself stepping back from the the big kahuna and much more interested in like I to a really small regional event in Tennessee called To the Moon last year and

and it was just so quaint and sweet and the land was wonderful and the art was really nice and

it felt so like just nice, you know, uh not this big to do and the party and the bllights and the I mean it was just I was with a group that had a lot of family members in it. We had a temple with tea services. We had a um like we were the monks of simple pleasures. or of tiny of tiny comforts. That's what it was.

Lots of tiny comforts. So, like what

what brings you a tiny comfort and like just reminding yourself of that like that little inner child like oh I like

I like this thing. Why don't I incorporate that into my life? Like that's

I mean I can see like the regionals because they're smaller. Maybe we're just more like like personal like a smaller scale, you know? It's like it's not like this tens of thousands of people, you know, like

Well, on that note, I'm I'm going to say a love burn is quite it it is blowing up. I mean I think it's over 10,000 people now and and

yeah it's massive and

and it's had to sort of expand to another road and and there's infrastructure concerns about that because there there has to be public access to certain beaches at the ends of those roads. So

but but that's kind of part of the beauty of the dancing of that event and how it continues to kind of shift left, shift right and tango around what the city needs, what we're for them, how they can generate an alliance that there can be a both and instead of an eitheror.

Yeah.

There, you know what I mean? Like a public uh street that bicyclists and pedestrians can go down. It's just like a no naked zone. You know what I mean? That's like the only real restriction in our in our book.

Yeah.

So, if you go over to the state park side, like it's a true burner event where you can do what not do whatever you want as long as you aren't harming another, you know what I mean? But

yeah,

um there's a little more freedom um I guess on on the ocean side of things. Um but I'm I'm really turned on and stimulated by the the arts production there and the stimul and the fostering of the arts. That was something that I was interested in when I was in the burner community when I was the regional art uh ambassador was I was fostering I did a Kickstarter project that brought Flaming Lotus Girls and Charlie in the art of such and such to Flip Side and I wanted to do these collaboration cross-pollination between regional artists And I noticed so many artists putting their stuff into storage, paying for it

just to have it rust.

And I'm like, we should get this thing on like a circuit. You know what I mean? Like have like art tour and and get more eyes on

and visibility and potentially even patrons with permanent

installation somewhere. You know, these things shouldn't have to be the the burden of the the artist funded them in the first place as a gift.

Yeah. Well, Amy, I think we could probably go on for another couple hours, but maybe we'll have to do a Amy Bunker 2.0. Someone would say, "Yeah, I think we're only barely scratching the surface here."

Yeah.

Thank you so much for

Oh, you're welcome. But if anybody wants to reach you, do you uh do do you even want people to reach or you know have like a email or or a website or anything or anything you want to plug?

Yeah, that's that's interesting. I I won't give my direct email, but I will give my website which is my name Amy Bunker Ammy. bun ner.com. So easy. Um, and that might even that has some contact on there if you want to find my Facebook and I think it might have an email if you really want to seek me out.

And that has a video of my public arts project and a portfolio of some of my work. So,

that's a good way good way to track something down if you're interested in anything I said.

Well, thank you so much and this has been awesome and I'm I have a feeling that we're gonna have to come back for Amy Bunker 2.0. and 3.0 and 6.0. Keep it going. We can just do a whole subsidiary Amy show. Love you.

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