EP 16 Xina Ocasio

Check out episode 16 with Xina Ocasio exploring the transformative power of the Burning Man community. The dialogue moves from Acasio’s initial immersion in rave culture and interactive art to her pivotal role in organizing the first Austin-based village at BRC in 2002. Central to the narrative is her experience of radical self-expression, specifically how the festival provided a safe liminal space for her to publicly navigate her gender transition through communal ritual. Ultimately, her story serves as a testament to the enduring social connections and psychological growth fostered by these regional and national gatherings, framing the event as a life-altering pilgrimage rather than a mere party. She is also part of a band you should check out called Sheverb. Enjoy!

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host Andy. Yeah, how about that Andy? Today our guest is Christina Acasio. Welcome to the show.

Hey, how are you doing, Andy?

Pretty good. Now, it's been a long time. Like, it's funny to to our listeners like I we were I I usually ask for uh like episode art you, you know, to from the guests and and Christina was very gracious to send me some photos like right away. And and then I I only had like one picture of her and it was from what the regional there's like there's this gathering on the playa of like regional contacts uh every year. I think they still do it. Uh and it was from like 2005. I remember when Chris was like, "Oh my god, I look so young." It's like I guess that was uh 20 years ago.

Yeah. Yeah. 20 years ago.

So yeah. So to start off um how about we talk was let's talk about your Bernie man experience like what was the first year you went to Burning Man or encountered Bernie Burning Man.

Uh, well, I mean, my first encounter of Burning Man was 1988 when I was switching jobs and I took the week off for Labor Day, the week leading up to

and I ran into somebody at a campsite in New Mexico because I was doing like Airbnb like bed and breakfast kind of things and like crashing on friends pads traveling in the Southwest. And I was I was so tempted to go, but I chickenened out cuz I didn't have like any gear. I had

1988.

Uh or 98.

98. 98.

98. Okay.

Yeah.

I was like 88 would have been really early. I was like, "Wow, I heard you Baker Beach that far away."

No, no, no, no.

98. Yeah. Yeah.

So then I promptly forgot about it because I switched to a new job and, you know, life got busy.

Uhhuh.

And then Then um I re-encountered it when I started I was start I just moved to Austin, you know, just got out of college

and I was starting to feel really lonely in Austin and I would go to these raves because I was in the rave culture.

I was I was a kid of the 80s and 90s. Uh

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Um and so I would go to these raves and I would see this group of friends who I'd like go those people are cool. I want to hang out with them. And I try to like talk to them, but you know, at a rave, it's kind of hard to like

Yeah.

really strike up a new friendship unless you're the circumstances are perfect.

Yeah.

Uh so what I eventually did was I contacted the primary person that put on the parties and I offered to host a booth. I sent him an email. It says, "Hey, I'm really interested to know what you would think about me setting up a booth. And I got this I I yeah, a booth. That's what I said.

And I got this email back and he was like, "What kind of booth?" And that was exactly the attitude. It just dripped like, "Oh my god, I can't believe somebody else is going to want to sell blinky things or something stupid."

Uhhuh.

And not that blinky things are stupid, but you know, just

disposable nothingness.

Mhm. So then I was like, "Yeah, I realized like his tone and I was like, so this is my idea. I'm going to bring up a lot of paint and I'm going to string up canvas and muslin cotton around the inside. You're going to walk in and it's all black light and people are going to paint."

And he was like he was like, "Hell yeah, bring that s***."

Cuz I figured I might as well. I mean, they were all doing this, so Okay, let me do that thing that they're doing that these people that I can see I want to hang out with.

Did you even kind of had any kind of concept like, oh, this is like this is interactive art and uh you know?

No.

No. You just kind of just saw what they were doing. You're like, oh, I could do something like that.

Yeah. Uh, well, it was in 1993.

Uhhuh.

I bought a VW band and followed the dead. And while I followed the dead I had I I got a bunch of sign paint, like really nice high quality sign paint.

Uhhuh.

Metal signed metal sign. And I would put the cans out in front of my van in the parking lot and like have people come paint my van.

Oh.

And so I had this really tripped out van that led to lots of like cool interactions, right? Like people that were just like, "Oh, this is so cool. You want to come over and hang out and do this or

oh Oh, we got we got passes to this thing or we got the tickets to this after show. You want to come check it out with us? And it just like opened up a lot of doors. And me, all I was doing was like trying to get a cool van.

You're Tom Swearing. Yeah. Paint my fence. Oh, what a great way to meet people and interact. That's awesome.

So, I did the thing and you know, everybody was like, "Oh, how are you doing?" "Yeah, this is great." And and I became a friend

and uh they took me to Flip Side in 2001.

Okay.

So, the first Burning Man thing I ever went to was Burning Flip Side in 2001.

Okay. Okay. So, I think you're a a couple of firsts for me. You're very first trans woman. Yes. But you're also um my first like person whose experience at Burning Man wasn't just going to Black Rock City. And that that's definitely something I wanted to kind of like plum and explore, you know, like through like, you know, I want to explore the various different aspects of Bry Man and just like how has Bry Man affected people, but not not just like, oh, through the lens of just going to the Black Rock Desert, you know, but uh Yeah. Yeah. So, your first experience was uh at Flip Side, like how was how was that? Would you

I mean, it it it blew my I mean, it blew my mind. It was all the people that I would try to like gather in my life as I would travel through like the regular world

and they were all the people that I would be attracted to in any kind of situation that I existed in were all gathered together in one place

and being being weird together and it was awesome.

How long did it take you to feel like that? Like when you just drink through the gate or

Yeah, inst it was instantaneous. I mean I uh that first Burning Man I found that first flip side, I found this blue jumpsuit that had like red and white racer stripes from the leg all the way up to the shoulder.

Uhhuh.

I put a blue wig on and painted my face and hands blue and ran around the party on burn night. Nobody knew who I was and everybody was just like loving the blue the bouncing the bouncing blue boy. running around just like with the biggest s*** eating grin on their face ever.

Wow.

So yeah,

didn't didn't take long. I mean um

I dove head first. I was like this is my people.

Yeah. So and you said that was 2001. Um so what at what point did you go to uh Black Rock Desert then?

So in Let me think about this. In 2002, I mean, I just I went so hard. So, in 2002, it was one of the first years that they had villages at Burning Man.

Okay. Yeah.

I don't think I don't know if it's the first year because I don't know.

Well, I think of those things those things kind of evolved along. I think maybe it was the first year they called it village or something

that called the v you could you could

like organize as a group that called that or something, right?

Yeah. They call it a village and there was a process where you like signed up.

Yeah. Yeah. Whereas like in years past it was just like oh we're just a bunch of theme camps camping together and we're all friends or something.

Right. Right. But it was always it had become hard to it become harder to colllocate the same group of people

together if you wanted a group of people to be colllocated together.

Yeah. Yeah.

So they created these so that it was the I like I said not sure if it was the first year but one of the first years that they had organized paperworked placed villages and it was also the first year a lot of the Austin burners were going back from 99

and I voluntarily uh put on a village for Austin to thank everybody for having burning flip side and shattering my entire worldview.

So, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold, let's pull this back a little bit. So, you start off by going to Flip Side for the first time in 2001. And then in 2002, you're like, I'm going to go to Burning Man and organize a village.

Yes, that was exactly what happened.

An entire village. Wow.

Uh

well, in the preceding year,

so 2000, so flip side was Memorial Day back then. They just changed it this year. It be the first year they changed it.

Uh so Memorial Day 2001,

flip side, I spend the whole year I become the the leader, the hype lead. So back then we still were like we didn't really like advertise but but we also wanted to try to put the word out.

You're still growing. Yeah.

Right. Right. We're still trying to you know we you know We knew we had something and people wanted it to be bigger, but they also wanted didn't want it to like, you know, we didn't want to put an ad in the paper.

Yeah.

Like how do we like facilitate growth for the types of people that we want?

And so I was uh in charge of hype. Uh I became the mistress of hype.

Okay.

And so I did hype for the 2002 flip side event.

Ah. So, I was at one of the leads. Uh me and K, uh uh no, that year it was just me. I did hype by myself.

Okay.

Uh and then 2002 Burning Man. I took a village to Burning Man. That was my first time to go to Burning Man.

So, how many people were in this village? I mean, I take it was like a whole crew of people.

Uh we had healers.

Okay.

We had uh Kingdom of Slack, which is a flip side theme camp that expanded.

Uh I don't remember if we had Tiki Bus, but we had Tiki Camp.

Oh, I think I remember that. Yeah.

Yeah, it was the bus was the big camp in 99. So 2000. So basically I was like, look, I just you all you all want to camp together, we could do the village. And I followed every single rule that the village requirement existed as they were on paper.

Oh, you made it happen.

Yes. So, I had a whole village. Brought four theme camps. I don't remember all of them. There's There's two more.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, lost.

Oh, Wonder Lounge.

Wonder Lounge. It sounds familiar, too. Yeah.

That's the It's It was a separate theme camp and now it's kind of the bar at Char at the ass camp.

Charlie Smith from Atlanta.

Yeah. Wow. So that was 2002. And then uh so did you ever become a regional contact or you were were you just like really involved with like flip side like uh

Yep.

What was your

So what was your involvement with flip side?

So after after hype in 2002 from 2003 to 2006 I was the placement lead.

Oh okay. Because I imagine they probably

and Cabana Boy uh Chris Cabana Boy.

Ah because I imagine there's probably At a certain point, you don't need hype anymore, right?

No. Yeah.

We're moving to a lottery system now.

Yeah. Uh that was the that was the last year. No more hype after that. The next year we sold out.

Yeah. Yeah. How many people What is selling out for Flip Side? Is is it always kind of stayed the same kind of number?

No, it grew every year. It grew.

Yeah.

We just we would set a cap.

But I mean I'm I'm sure like the the site wherever you had like certain limit you could do, right? You can only grow so much,

right? So, we changed sites in 2006

or seven.

How big is flip side now?

Uh, last I heard it's like two and a halfk, I think, something like that.

Oh, really? Wow.

But that's, you know, really rough. And I can't verify.

I can't attest to the veracity of that claim.

I mean, how many people were there when you first went in 2001? Uh 200.

Oh wow. Nice and cozy.

250 maybe 500.

Yeah. No, that's a good size.

Yeah. I mean I met I met most everybody and

so yeah. So then uh so how many more years you did you do flip side and Burning Man Ford? Like did you keep going back to the playa or were you just mainly focused on and working on Flip Side.

Uh, well, I did Flip Side really hard from till 2006.

Uhhuh.

And then I got a job in Vermont, moved up to Vermont.

Oh, really?

Yeah. And I kind of hung out on the edge of the New England burn scene.

Uhhuh.

Until I moved to Boston and then I became involved with the Boston Burns scene because they have a really vibrant scene in Boston. It's pretty pretty nice.

Yeah. Well, I know they have um where they called Firefly, which is actually up in Vermont, right? But um so yeah, what did the Boston scene do? They have like a lot of gatherings and gettogethers or

they used to have a a a monthly um beer gathering at a brewery, but that brewery actually just closed down this winter.

They had their last one there, and it they had been doing that for 12, 15 years or something like that.

Really? Wow.

Yeah. Like consistent,

huh,

people showing up?

Like, how many people are it showing up?

It could be anywhere from five to 120.

Oh, wow. That's

like when it like depends on what's happening in the community. Like as you get closer to party, man, more and more people start showing up and

like the dead of winter when nothing's happening and everybody's holed up in their apartments, you get less people out.

So, what were you doing up in Vermont? Where were you in Vermont? I I was working at a tech company in right outside of Stow.

Stow. Oh, okay. Yeah. No,

Waterberry Center if you know Vermont.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I went to college in Burlington, UVM and uh like we're talking like off the air before like I frequently go down to like southern Vermont for like a some some family, some extended family, but uh no, Vermont's a a wonderful beautiful place and I know Yeah. So, so Boston holds They're like Firefly event up in Vermont, but I think Vermont does have its own regional now.

Yes, it's it's that LA I think the first Vermont regional was a Boston burner that moved to Vermont.

Oh, okay. Because I think I was talking to you remember Amy Bunker.

She she was uh well at first she was New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine, like all three states. But uh I think by the time she stepped down like they're actually was someone from Maine and there was someone from Vermont. Ah, okay. Um, so did you ever go to like Birdie Man or Flip Side after that or like

uh I been the back to Flip Side in and out a couple years over the time? Uh,

yeah. You still involved?

Last time I was there was like 17 or 18 or 16 or something. I don't remember.

Ah, okay. So, uh, but you're back in Texas now. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

For the time.

Yeah. Uh All right. Well, um that's a pretty good background of your Burning Man experience. Like, uh well, how tell us about uh you like what what uh was your life like? What led you up to like where did you grow up? Uh like what what led you to this uh the whole scene of Bernie man?

Uh well, you know, I've always been an outsider or somebody that you know, marches to the beat of their own drum and usually is dancing to it in the in the grocery store. Uh, so I mean, uh, let's see. Born in Texas, uh, I learned to I learned to walk and talk in New York City in Brooklyn.

Uh, with my Puerto Rican half of my family. So then, uh, my father decided that, you know, with with the son of Sam walking around shooting people in cars that he didn't want his family in New York City anymore and moved us to Texas,

you know. Uh and then I grew up spent time in Texas till I was 18 doing high school in Houston.

Oh, okay. Houston.

And then there was, you know, you know, there was pregnancy, a kid, college. So that kind of had me hopping around Florida, New York.

Wow.

Texas, uh, Saudi Arabia for Desert Storm. Uh,

oh, were you, uh, in the military?

Yeah.

Oh, I didn't know that. What, uh, branch were in?

US Army.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, I drove I drove a I drove and loaded a tank. I was lo I was the loader in a tank until the day that I we were doing training missions and I looked out my viewer and saw another tank driving and t-boned us.

And then I became the driver of the tank because the other driver was kic lost his job.

You don't t-bone a tank and get to keep your job.

Yeah, I imagine

I had a tank on tank tank on tank wreck.

I mean, I wasn't involved. I was just standing there.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, how long were you in the military for? two years.

Oh,

just a short stint. It was most It was try to get back into college. I got to college.

I went to college and did the typical ADD college thing and like joined every single organization under the sun and went to absolutely none of my classes. So, I got D's and C's and the college said, "Well, you didn't get bad enough grades that we want to kick you out, but you also didn't get good enough grades that you can go into the next semester, so you have to come back next fall and start again.

And then I had to figure out how I was going to pay for college.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Huh.

So, yeah. So, there was a there was the army, then there was the birth of my son, and then there was uh the war, and then there was a divorce, and then there was stumbling around trying to figure out what the f*** I'm going to do for my life. And then there was college. where I studied physics and philosophy.

Then there was like corporate America

grind and do the keyboard slapping thing.

Wow. So at what point in all this did you encounter the that first like rave scene like you know when you your

rave Oh well that rave that scene was 99.

Uhhuh.

The first time I encountered the rave scene was, you know, 1988 or whatever.

Well, no, I'm just saying like between like your story of like, you know, you know, going to the military, going to school, and you birth of your child, you know, like what point did, you know, did the encounter with with their their earliest encounters with Bernie man start?

After college.

Oh, after college. Ah, okay. So, you worked in I Yeah, I read that Wired article whenever it came out, 96 or whatever.

Mhm.

Uh, yeah. And I thought, "Oo, should go to that but then forgot about it because I was saying I was in college.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean everybody kind of encounters it a little bit differently like the um one of my last or my more recent episodes that just came out as we're recording now. Um Yams like in England and he saw some video or some documentary on the TV and just he just it was weird. He just kind of just kind of struck him. it was just like I have to go there and then like I mean I think I only made it like 3 years later but like I mean quite a lot of times I think people just kind of encounter other people that they know you know and they're just like oh I really like this person and they kind of find it that way you know but uh yeah I mean that the Wired articles definitely was one of the big ones right like in the 90s people like oh yeah Running Man was kind of like in the zeitgeist but uh huh that's interesting

I I've been a fan of the Cacophony Society.

Oh, really?

Since they were in that research. I read about them in that research magazine.

What was research magazine?

It was that it was like a bound bound book that like it was like a bound magazine. It's like thick

like a graphic novel kind of thing.

Yeah. But but it was like kind of newspapery, but it was about edge life. Life on the edge of society.

What was it called?

Right.

Research.

Research.

So they had a a body modification one that was really famous. And then they had uh the one on Cacophony Society. I think Church of the Subgenius might have been in it.

Huh.

So I was in the I was in the cacophony Society and Church of the Subgenius from the from from the Church of Subgenius from Are you familiar with them?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, Church of Subgenius, me and my buddy sent a thing in the back of Rolling Stone in 198.

Yeah, you got the VHS. I only like I mean I remember people like talking about it like I remember hearing like the history about it. Like I never actually like uh Yeah. Was it there? I'm trying to remember what it was. There was like some ad you respond to and they send you like

Yeah,

it was like in the back, you remember in the very back there would be these like

different ads that were like

become a rock star or

send in $1 and get this a videotape for Church of the Sub Genius. Praise Bob. And we were like that sounds cool. I got a dollar.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, I've always kind of been into that whole alter uh you know Uh-huh.

Uh what is that? Uh Hakeim Bay says uh autonomous zones.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you did you did would you say philosophy and physics like in college?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Exposed to like a lot of that stuff. Yeah. Huh. Okay. Well,

I don't know. What do you think? Like how do you think uh Bernie man has uh your interaction with that has affected and shaped your life? Well, I mean, Burning Man gave me the permission to transition, so

Oh, really? Talk about

Oh, sure. Uh, I mean, you know, Halloween was my favorite holiday for many, many years because it was the only day I could get to like dress up like a woman and walk around outside in public and not get beaten up.

Uhhuh.

Uh, it was socially acceptable and all my friends would be cool with it. Uh so I did that for many years. Uh and then when I started hanging around with burners, I was like, "Oh, these people are weird. I can dress I can dress however I want." And the more I dressed how I wanted, the more I wanted to dress how I wanted. And the more I wanted to do the thing that I'd been denying myself for a decade and a half.

Huh.

So

I mean, so when you encountered the like the burner community whether like flip side or burning man. I mean like did you feel comfortable? I mean did you feel like safe or

Yeah, for the most part I felt safe. I mean you know no space is 100% safe but yeah I mean I felt safe enough that it was all it the first people I came out to was the people that through the rave party that I put the booth in.

Mhm.

We we had become friends and we were like we were in each other's lives. We'd

Yeah.

We would host salons and book clubs and go to concerts together and, you know, our life was wrapped up in each other. So, they were the first people I came out to.

And then there was these famous beach parties that Flip Side Community would put together.

Uh, you know, George Pop, St. Tiki, and would take his Tiki bus from Austin then down to South Padre Island.

Okay.

And we would all go down there and camp around the tiki bus and party for a night or two.

So after I told all my like super closest friends, I went on that little adventure with a bunch of people and came out to everybody else. Uh I distinctly remember um when I sat down in Champa's lap, who used to be a regional contest I think for Austin and uh one of the people that helped me when I joined the community uh and the the first thing he said out of his mouth was, "Hey, Mel," which is his wife's name, "I told you. I told you."

So, not everybody was shocked.

I'm sure it's like about time. here, have a beer.

Uh, so then, um, in 2003, which was my second year at Burning Man,

I camped in Infinite Oasis, which was a village with

Oh, yeah.

He GB Healers, Wonder Lounge, Charlie Smith's, and his art.

Yeah.

And there was the Red Dome. I feel like there was one more camp in there.

It all sounds so familiar. Yeah.

Yeah. So, we camped there. Uh, and one of the pieces that Charlie had in the center of the camp was the tunnel of transformation.

Oh.

Which was like uh kind of a omega-shaped um not exactly omega- shaped but kind of omega- shaped.

Uhhuh.

Like the Greek letter capital omega

um shaped steel wood cauldron and you would fill it up with wood and then it would fire and fire would come out top and you could walk through it and get real hot.

Oh.

Uh

so on Thursday night, Friday of the burn week at dusk, I held the ceremony at 2003 Burning Man.

And that was the moment where I took off the last time I wore men's clothes and put it in the tunnel of transformation and like I did this little ceremony where

wow

I don't know there was probably 120 people standing around celebrating my transition and I was able to create this like pretty be sorry about that clicking noise I'm so

no right

uh so I was able to you know create this ritual where I got to share share this significant moment in my life with my community.

Oh, wow. That's beautiful.

Yeah, it's a people often come up and tell me about how much they enjoyed that moment.

Wow. I wonder I wonder if that inspired anybody else.

I don't know.

Well, I mean because I mean like every experience like you know everything you know interactions we have like art pieces all all the interactions in Burning Man like affect people in so many ways you don't even notice you know even the people just like walking by you know I mean maybe there was some some young kid just walking by seeing that and was just like huh you know like this is something I've been thinking about like like maybe there's something in in me I mean who knows

I have been told that um from friends of mine who came along on that journey with me that coming along on that journey helped them later in life as they met more and more people like me.

Ah, interesting.

So,

yeah, I mean because I know I mean there's been some like discussion especially like currently you know um the current American political climate all the the craziness going on. But like even just like within like the the Burning Man community and people talking about like you know like oh you know what you know like what what can we do you know to to help like members of the trans community and you know there's there's a lot of like back and forth but um I don't know I think quite a lot of people kind of echoing the same thing of just it's like oh you know Burning Man has always been this kind of like safe space and environment you know which uh you know to like to allow everyone to like radically express themselves and uh you know to to protect people to come out and uh and to to fully be themselves. I mean,

yeah, you know, it's a tight wire. There's definitely the flip side, which, you know, you give enough people enough permission, you get people that take permission to do stupid stuff.

Oh, that's true. Yeah.

So, uh, but for the most part, yeah, I mean, it's been very I mean, all my friends have been super supportive.

Mhm.

Uh, I've never really had a terribly awful experience, just minorly, you know, inconvenient. and insufferable

at at Burning Man or regional event or just like in general in life.

No, sure. At Burning Man.

Oh, yeah.

Burning Man's not immune to

Oh, no.

It's made of people.

It's a city of 70,000 people. Like, you know, there's going to be all kinds and sometimes you run into them.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

It's just like a a

There's a a I am always concerned about this one thread that weaves through a lot of the way people talk about Burning Man about how accepting and open and radical it is

and they forget to like make sure to give a little bit of a guard rail that says not everyone in the environment is always going to be open and accepting and so you got to still stay aware of your surroundings. It's less likely to happen but things do happen but you know we work on it and we try to keep it from happening. And we have systems in place to help deal with things and to stop things. And you know, we're we do our best to mitigate the fact that we live in the society we currently live in.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And also I'm sure like the difference between like, you know, a more veteran burner versus like a firsttime person. I mean, yes, there's like a a culturation to it too, right? But

but I mean I imagine like we said like it's made of people. Even people who've been there a long time like

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not, you know, no no no disrespect or shade. It's just

a word of caution when you hear these, you know, make sure you're always not don't leave the rosy shades on all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. So, are you still in involved in the the burner community or you still have like friends in the burner community?

I definitely still have friends in the burner community for sure. Uh I mean they'll be friends of mine for life. Uh, I'm less involved now, mostly because it's expensive. I don't have the time. And

yeah,

I'm focusing on trying to figure out where I'm going to move to to try to make myself safe.

Yeah.

Uh, finding new employment and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Uh, so yeah. So, you're looking at New England or something, right?

Yeah, I think New England is kind of the ideal place. Uh, you know, the the thing with the Pacific Northwest is too too expensive.

Yeah. Yeah.

To be to be in the places in the Pacific Northwest where it's safe, it's too expensive. If you go on the other side of the mountains and you're out in west and

east Washington and East Oregon, you know,

your mileage may vary on the safety issue.

Uh, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, at least, you know, with a burner community, I mean, it's like it sounds to me like you probably still have some friends up there like in New England.

Oh, sure. Definitely. I've already started reaching out to people and yeah, I'm shaking the trees.

Yeah.

But yeah, the Boston community is uh was has been I lived there for a year and a half and the I still consider those friendships some of my most cherished.

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is kind of the common thread I've been finding a lot of my uh guests, you know, it's just it's like, oh, what is Burning Man, what have it what has it done for you? What does it mean for you? You know, what impact has had in your life? And it's like I don't know. I think people always keep coming back to just like just like Yeah. connections like friendships, you know, and it's there comes out in so many different ways. It's like, you know, like you're saying like uh it's like, oh, you're going to move somewhere, you need some help looking for a place to stay, looking for a job, you're looking for a community, looking for friends.

I mean, you know, if it wasn't for Burning Man, I wouldn't have ever started a band.

Oh, you have a band?

Uh, yeah. Sheverb. We play psychedelic, rock and roll, spaghetti western, desert out music, all instrumental. Um, we have three albums on Spotify and all other streaming services. We are wherever there is. Uh, well, we don't we're not on Tik Tok.

So,

yeah. S H E V RB. Oh, I'll have

uh yeah, I I met the other co-founding member through my flip side connections. Uh she had become involved in the bike shop, the yellow bike shop.

Oh yeah. Uhhuh.

She ended up running it for a number of years. Betty

Betty Ben & Dudley. Uh and I met her through Dave and Merrily Archer. who are have been heavily involved in the regional network community.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember those guys.

Yeah. So, they were at Bonaroo. I was at Bonnaroo. I was at Bonnaroo with Charlie Smith. We were prepping. We had built a sculpture and I was in Atlanta for the summer because I was building Big Bully for so the years I went to Burning Man is 2002, 2003. 2005, 2011, 12, 13, and 2017.

Oh, okay.

So, I've gone spread out over time.

Yeah. Well, life intercedes, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. So, the 11 through 13 years, I was involved with uh Charlie Smith and the camp of the art of such and such or camp ass

and uh I was one of the assist and fabricators. And then uh 2013, I was spent the whole summer in Atlanta building the big sculpture we brought out to Burning Man that year called Big Bully.

Oh, what was Big Bully?

It was a giant bull with a threefaced uh three faces on its head. So like a front face and two side faces. So kind of like uh cubist in a way, but

Oh yeah.

image was a different expression and then you know Charlie's art is put fire inside the big metal box and flames come out.

Yeah. Wow. Do you see yourself uh ever going back to Burning Man one of these days?

Yeah. If the situation if life transpires to make that a reality then yes I could see going back. I I'm not like seeking it at this moment cuz

I have other things I want to focus on. But

yeah. Yeah.

But if if the stars align, then no, I'm not I'm not opposed to going back. It's a great it's a great experience. And what I tell everybody I've ever met who ever says anything about, oh, I think I'd want to go see that one day. My immediate response is go immediately, as fast as you can, and go do it now because there is no better time than now. And if you have any desire to be out there, you should definitely go check it out.

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

I mean it's I mean just the experience is lifealtering. You know it's this uh

Oh yeah.

You know I my involvement with the community has always been very much about trying to understand the event and what role it serves in people's lives.

Yeah. Yeah.

And one of the big ideas I keep circling back to is Burning Man is a liinal state. It is like a pilgrimage.

Huh. It's funny because I always kind of thought of it as like, oh, it's like Mecca. It's like you're obligated to go at least once in your life.

Yeah. Which is what Mecca is a liinal state cuz you're

you're in between. The in between is the person you were before you started this experience and the person you are after you started after you came back from this experience.

Right. So, you are in this state that's not you're normal and the rules of society are functionally different enough that you feel no longer more to your normal routines and in that space there is the ability to expand in any direction you want.

Yeah, I like that.

So it's the so the the the because it is a pilgrimage, right? You you get all your stuff. You make a it's there's a physical pilgrimage and then you're out there for a week

uh until the climactic moment and then you cool down and then you travel home and then you have to recontextualize everything you just experienced and synthesize it into the person that you as you exist in the normal world.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like the like Bernie man and Black Rock Theater or regional events or anything. It's like it's it's a transformational event, but it's up to you like the for the the rest of your time, your life, you know, like you said to like to process this. I mean, like

I don't know. It's it's like, you know, fire transforms paper into, you know, ash or whatever. I mean, it's just it's just the it's the it's the

I don't know the interactive like elements, but like you know what what happens and transpires afterwards. is like, you know, that that's that's your journey.

Mhm.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, that's essentially like why I I I started this show, you know, the whole idea of like, you know, the shadow of the man, you know, it's just is to see it's like, you know, it's like after I mean, in some cases after like what 30, 40 years for some people, you know, it's just like, what does this what does this mean? You know, like and some people's like, oh yeah, they've been doing this like half their lives. I mean, uh, what I'm looking for, I think I'm I'm gonna hopefully try and get an interview at some point, maybe season two. But, uh, someone who's and I I got to know a couple of people like this, like, um, they were brought to Bernie man as as babies and they've been going every single year and now they're like, you know, like in their early 20s and they're they're still going and they entire lives have been shaped by Bernie, man. It's like I'd love to, you know,

there's there's several of those out there.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's just amazing because people realiz like oh what is the Byron man experience I'm like well you know it's different for every person you know but I don't know if people just take like another angle to this it's like okay after so many years like why like what is it about it that like you know that that motivates you it's like you know I mean because there's some people I'm sure it's just like oh it's a bucket list thing it's like I read about this magazine I'm going to go okay check it off the list you know but uh I don't know

yeah what what I've discovered is I will never go back to Burning Man Unless I'm involved in some way in something.

Mhm.

The only year that I wasn't like involved in a major way was 2005. It was a very unique experience.

What were you in 2005?

Nothing. I just rolled out there and camped and I did the fly in show up. My best friend friend from college lives in LA and he and his wife are big burners. They are invol they were involved in organizational aspects of Burning Man for several years.

Okay.

Um they just started dating. They they were friends in college. Both of them were friends of mine.

Mhm.

I went to Bernie man and I just rolled up and there was a tent made for me. My friend made like I everything was set up. I just rolled in,

put my bag in the tent and

went on along in the PL. That was the year of the 88 wrong0 foot ladder up into

Oh, God. Yeah.

I I climbed that, by the way.

Oh, really? Uh

there's a ladder. I have to climb it.

My legs were shaking just seeing that from like hundreds of feet away. I was like, "Ah. I can't do that.

But that was the only year I didn't do anything. And

if I ranked my years as a level of awesomeness, it would be the bottom of the list.

Ah, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there was plenty of great aspects, but it was still kind of weird feeling under

Well, it just makes it more worth it. You, you know, it's like you're you're involved, you know? It's uh it's one of the principles. It's like you're participating. You're

you're being immediate, you know, the immediiacy and civic duty and stuff like that.

It's a it's a big part of how we, you know, the community builds is uh through trial and uh

Oh, yeah.

the elements and like making it all happen and then being able to celebrate that you did it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's part of the whole transformation. I mean, it's like I don't know. Is it transforming to have a tailgate? It's like, oh, we're just going to hang out and party, you know? It's like Yeah. I mean, I guess some degree

it's not the same as spending uh three months building a giant metal sculpture and then watching the smiles on people's faces as they

Yeah. Yeah.

drive drive around it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I took off was it 2011 actually last year 20 24 was the first year went back um skipped what 13 years or something but uh Yeah, even then like you know like I was staying at the friend's camp and you know but I still it was just like you know I have to do something. So I I volunteered at a you know art installation but uh yeah I mean it's the same way like I can't just go to Burning Man and just be like a tourist you know I have to go out there and do something.

It was very weird.

Yeah. Well I have to uh get you back there out in the play. I was going to do my uh restart up my old camp the cult of distraction. this year. But, uh, yeah, we're not going to make it out to the playoff. Maybe in a future year.

Yeah. I I just can't even imagine doing any of that stuff this year.

Yeah. Well, also, times are kind of crazy, you know? We need to figure out some more important things first.

Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, like, yeah, my I have a son who's just turned 17. Uh, it's going to be hitting his senior year. The nest is going to be empty. I think next year, you know, something like we'll go back to Birdie Man one of these days, you know, but maybe not just crazy.

That that is uh one of the benefits of um starting as young as I did.

I've been empty nest for 10 years now.

10 years? Really?

Yeah. My son's 34.

Wow.

I I mean, and you know, here's an burn man improved my relationship with my son. I mean, when it

Yeah, talk about that.

It didn't hurt. It didn't hurt. It didn't help at the beginning, but then when he became an adult, it helped us rekindle our relationship. I took him out to Flip Side in 2011 or 12.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And he loved it.

Uh, so that was a

Did you ever go out to Black Rockck City or did you guys go to together?

No. No. He never could make a schedule work. He He was doing oil rig work at that point.

Oh. Oh.

And then he got off the oil rig and now he has a family. So, you know.

Oh, so he's not going to like go out work DPW for like a few months.

Wow.

Well, me.

Maybe one of these days the two of you guys have to go back together. That'd be fun.

Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. I mean, I'm not a That's actually sounds like a great idea, but it'll be sometime in the far future. So,

yeah. Yeah. Well, we we're not getting any younger, but we also have plenty of time.

There is there will definitely be still be things happening even if the big one's gone.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we'll see. We'll see. Uh, cool. Okay. Let's see. Do you have uh is there any way like anything you want to plug cuz you have your band, right? She Verb.

Yeah, Sheverb.

I want to check that out. Anything else you want to plug? Any

No, no, I am. Yeah, my plug is uh if uh if you live in a city that's safe and you could put uh 50 plus year old transgender woman to work. I'm really good in the office. Uh I cook and clean. I need to be out of Texas. Help me please.

Yeah. Well, what kind of job are you looking for?

Uh, well, um, my corporate experience is engineering and project management. Uh, okay.

So, I've been kind of trying to focus on project management and creative roles like, uh, I applied for a project manager at a fine art metal studio.

Oh. Oh,

so I've been trying I've been basically trying to find anything where the intersection of my uh, corporate experience and my a creative experience merge.

Huh. Well, you hear that listeners? Anyone out there? Anyone up in like a master?

Logistics,

logistics, project management, office management. I'm also very creative. I've done all kinds of different art styles.

Huh. So, if someone wants to get a hold of you, reach you, how are they what uh how would they reach you?

Uh the best way is signal, but I want to know my signal handle.

Uh at Zena uh46. I think we could we'll put it in the show notes.

So, see your

I because I don't know if that's right and I don't know where my phone is right now.

Okay. So, what are you at? Zena X I N A.

Yeah. Let me see. My mouse is dead. There it goes. That's the best way people get a hold of you.

Yeah, Signal is the best way. I quit most It's a meta meta meta.

Oh yeah. 6 aena.46. That's my signal.

46. Okay. So atx.46 on signal.

Yeah, that's the best way to reach me. Uh because yeah, I don't do meta anymore. I'm on blue sky and Tik Tok and

yeah,

trying to trying to trying to figure out uh if I can afford to run my own Fedverse server to do my own social media.

Oh, that'd be a cool project. Uh, right. Any any final words or anything?

No. Uh, not that I can think of. Did we cover everything?

Uh, I don't know. I guess but yeah. No, I wanted Do you give you the space to tell your story? You know, unedited, uncut, you know, feel free to say whatever you want. But, uh, thank you. Uh, thank you so much. Santa for uh this is an awesome interview. Very timely.

Yeah, thank you.

And

yeah.

So,

I appreciate it.

All right. Thanks.

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