EP 17 Inani Schroedinger

Meet Inani Schroinger, a long-time participant who reflects on the evolution of Burning Man culture from the late 1990s to the present. The conversation moves through his early years performing in Pepe Ozan’s burning operas, his time on the DPW and Resto crews, and his eventual leadership in creating the Manticor effigy during the 2021 "Renegade Burn." Central to the text is a critique of the institutionalization of the event, as Inani argues that the official organization has traded raw, fringe creativity for a sanitized, accessible version of its former self. Ultimately, he calls for hacking the culture, urging veterans and artists to reclaim the anarchic spirit and collective effervescence that originally defined the community.

Episode note: Inani is not a staff member of the Burning Man Project, and the Burning Man Philosophical Center is also the name of a Burning Man Project department that was started in 2015 (which precedes Inani's Facebook group).

Transcript

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I am your host, Andy. Ah yes that Andy today our guest is Inani Schroddinger Schroinger. Schroinger how you pronounce

is generally how I pronounce it.

Ah okay. So yeah so uh tell us a little bit about who like so when when was the first year you hit the planet?

Well my first year was uh 1998 and I got involved in Bernie man because I think I might have seen something about it in the Wired magazine before

but I don't know that really like registered, but like it really locked in when my mother gave me the uh the wired hard cover book. And like I'd always been kind of like an odd eccentric child and uh you know I was in my early 20s by then and uh and basically for me it was it was like a recognition because like I had always done like a company society type stuff but it was just like me and like maybe a buddy or two or something like that, you know, like

uh wearing gas masks and stapling bananas in trees or something like that, you know,

and um You know, for me it was like, you mean there are others? I need to be there right now. So, uh, from that moment forward, I went to like all of the the regional events, which back in the days there was still the Beach Birds, uh, that were on Ocean Beach, and so we started hitting those up like Okay. Both, and there was the Flam Bay Lounge and other various events and and like interrelated parties and like various maker spaces.

So, just for our our listeners, it's like, so I I take what you're saying is like you you lived in the Bay Area, like San Francisco,

correct? Yeah. So, I grew up in Bay and uh Hayward is where I spent most of my youth. Um and so I had the good fortune of being quite close to like the the cultural seat of the community.

So this is like like mid mid 90s. You were kind of bouncing around the Bay Area like hanging out with cacophony society doing stuff.

Yeah. I don't I don't think I did a whole lot of like cacophony events per se, but like uh but definitely anything like Burning Man related, Burning Man events, etc. I might have gone to one or two like official cacophony events, but I've only more recently become like more interested that are integrated into like a company society or like desire to actually like just breathe life back into it. Um

and and like uh you know maybe start chapters, local chapters, something like that, you know.

So uh so in '98 you first went to how did you just go by yourself? Did you like have a the couple of friends?

So yeah so there there's my friend Lauren like uh we spent a lot of our young adulthood together and we uh we lived together uh in an apartment for a while and uh of course he was excited about it as well because he was a freak like me. And um we started hitting up all those events and like developing costumes and like uh um we were into we were into all of these like like skill arts because we were in like pretty good shape. We were like, you know, kind of short but acrobatic kind of individual. So we would go to these burns and we would do like duo like acrobatic type tricks where we' like link arms behind behind backs and like flip end over end and like uh and then I found these like stilts that They were meant for kids, but like the the design was so cool. They were kind of diamond shaped and you can slide your feet inside of them and they were so stable and easy to walk on. And they only gave you a foot and a half like of extra height, but it was just enough to make us kind of unearly. And so we made like and then we worked at at like um a place that sold that sold uh copy machines um Icon Office Solutions. And uh the cardboard boxes that those copers came in was like this super uh strong rigid cardboard and we made all kinds of costume elements out of it. Just hot glue. and like you know get some stuff from Home Depot. So like really scrapping it together old school style

and uh

so so like um we'd have these stilts and then like we did these long fingered hands that were kind of like jack these they had these point there was several iterations of hands that we made and of course like you know we burned some of them or like we tried flaming variations or something like that and uh but that that was like our trademark for a while you know like one thing that Dan told me about back like witnessing us back in the day he's like you know what's cool about you guys is there was two of you, you know, because like one of us would enter into the room and we'd have we'd have we we we'd have had these like I took a lot of my movement from Jurassic Park actually like the the velociraptors and stuff like that, but like really kind of mimic that that kind of way of moving and like kind of darting like quickly whipping your your head around and like like staring someone in the face and stuff like that and

you know, you know, well, two two quick things we'll just mention, but we we'll get back to a little bit later. Uh well well Dan uh this is what Dan Miller, right?

That's correct.

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, one of the original uh

uh I don't know what we'd say, uh pranksters, Larry Harvey's roommate. Like, we'll get back we'll talk about him about it in a while. And the other thing, uh making cardboard fingers that you're you're going to light on fire. This is another thing I want to get back to later on where has like a Birdie Man used to be like, you know, we're talking about like a used to be free to radically express yourself, but it was quite a dangerous place. But uh Oh, yeah. I'm not sure you could light your like cardboard fingers on fire now.

Well, yeah. I mean, like like there's there's definitely like some menace to yourself. Like, you know, even on those speech burns back then, like like uh one of the the the most hilarious examples, it was only a minor injury, but one of the most hilarious examples, my friend Lauren, like he he took he he made all this stuff to uh from from like uh his father like installed carpet. So, there's all kinds of stuff that he uh

made out of like the old carpet. tubes and things like that. But one one of his flaming costumes is he took the skeleton of the umb of an umbrella and he made like a so that it would seat on his head and then um he took this like EMT conduit, you know, spiralally stuff and like kind of stretched out made these big springs and then he had like all these threshold strips that would go in between the the carpet and the flooring and so he'd make these kind of like battens that all these springs would protrude out of

and like kind of tie tie them onto his hand. It was incredibly dangerous and silly thing to do, but he did this thing and like basically like loosely tied like a bunch of terry cloth onto the ends of these springs and onto this like like uh this headpiece that he made out of the the umbrella skeleton. And then like he's there and I'm watching him tie this stuff onto his body. He doesn't have any kind of quick release medicine mechanism or anything like that. And the torches go in every direction all around his body and they're only just like very loosely tied on and they're like so fuel and I was like I don't know. Are you sure you want to do this? Seems kind of dangerous. He's like light me up. Light me up. Light me up. You know he's like very adamant. So we start lighting him lighting him and he has turn, of course, so that we can like get all the torches cuz the wind is blowing. Well, you know, once he starts turning into the wind, those flames start licking his skin pretty good and those that EMT, well, it heats up and it goes right back to those metal strips that you have tied onto those armp. So, he starts like frantically running and spinning at the same time towards the ocean cuz you can't just run. You can't just run straight, right? Because the flames will hit him. So, he's like and like the the the torch scraps are like just flying off of him like the torches are bouncing like they're supposed to and they're just like leaving this trail of flaming remnants behind him and like he dives into the ocean of course cools himself off and then just comes uh comes back to the circle and I I don't remember exactly what he said but he's like something to the effect well that was very interesting and then he has and he's got this blister this like singular blister that runs the entire length of his forearm from elbow to wrist about like you know 2 in wide

wow

you know so he recovered he survived anyway but like we also also make like flamethrowers out of super soers which you can really only use once because the uh

that degrade the plastic or something.

Yeah, they degrade the plastic. But for but for one night, you can really have a lot of fun. I made this flaming pod piece, you know, where I where I took the super soaker mechanism apart and hooked it up uh to put it inside this um some of that irrigation tubing, you know, and and just look like a giant dick that I painted and stuff like that. And I set up so all I had to do is like press it down and then it would shoot fire out of the top of it.

And um yeah, so we just do lots of lots of playful kind of stupid, silly, like dangerous stuff. You know, that's where I learned to breathe fire from like a guy that was quite certain that there was like cadaavvers in London that were being able they're being used to control his mind and stuff like that. So it's good times.

Good times. Good times. So yeah. So in 98 you go for the first time. I mean are you right the full week during like the

weekend? Absolutely. So So we have we have a I have a Volkswagen bug. I'm the only one with a freaking car and this thing is not in the greatest shape. Like I'd already taken to the mechanic several times and like it kept uh blowing out a spark plug. It kept like popping spark plugs. And like um so there's a few things that that that happened like um like uh I think like the the we were on the beach like having one of these bonfires like right before the event or something like that and there's like we see this Honda like like ripping down the road and then it just like loses control like for no freaking reason and smashes into a light post and uh and like uh my friend's girl girlfriend had like some EMT experience so she runs over there and everybody's fine everything like that. But that was like kind of a weird moment. And then like uh we get we get everything like all packed into uh to the vehicle and like I am not like 5 minutes down the road when I reach out to adjust my my rearview mirror and it just falls off the side mirror, you know? It's just like oh. So like I stop at a Walgreens and I grab like a makeup compact and I just duct duct tape that onto the side of the car and that's

it just fell off and it was just gone.

Yeah, it just fell off and it was just f****** gone. It was like that's it for that mirror. It's just like that's right. But I need you know change lanes and stuff. So, that was our solution for that. And then like coming up over uh over the uh the mountains there on 8 hour over the Sierras. Well,

guess what? That that that vehicle starts to have some problems. And um we cannot go faster than 25 miles per hour and it's put and that's how we get that's how we arrive at Burning Man. Put P put 25 miles an hour for the whole rest of the way. And um I I don't remember the mechanic who was there at the gas station, but like as soon as I get there and like land all our stuff and and like mind you this Volkswagen bugs we're like like pressed into the seats, right?

Yeah.

And um

Yeah. So so we um

we uh we arrive, I throw our stuff out, go in, drop my car off, get a pass to come back in and all that stuff. That car is still out there. I mean, he was he was generous enough to give me a hundred bucks for it. So I mean probably not still out there. Probably been scrapped. You know what? Whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. It's probably the planters or somewhere. Yeah.

Yes. And and like you know

how long how long did it take you to get from like San Francisco to to Gerac then I imagine.

I think it was about eight hours. It was about something like that. You know it's not too bad.

No it wasn't it wasn't all too bad but it was definitely like you know we left late so we were up all through the night you know. It was it was like it was like a struggle you know. It was a pilgrimage. Real real real real pilgrimage.

That makes it worth it. Yeah. Yeah.

It absolutely was. And so and so like my my shade structure that I designed was like I was like, "Oh yeah, this will this will work great. It's very cheap." So like I I just cut these pieces of like um PVC in half like to four foot because I was like that's enough. You can get under there for shade, you know, and then I had like you know 8 by10 tarp which I stretch so I I I I stretched a line between the tops of the uh the PVC that I cut holes in and then like had guy wires like down all the way around made a rectangle through tarp and needless to say that was not particularly effective for very long. Yeah, there we were at the beginning end of the learning curve and um we definitely got our asses beat. My my my I was able to convince my father to come out and pick us up in the end of it and uh but it was an incredible and amazing experience the way it is like for most people the first year that they go.

So your father like came out to pick you up from the Bay Area like drive up to Garac. Well, that's a good Yeah, he he stopped over and like stayed in a hotel. He was not really interested in ever going Burning Man. He does not like crowds. He's not like a super social person. He's like very interesting, very intelligent, very strange, but um but like he likes to see that stuff like from a distance, but like uh so arriving after it was all over was perfect for him. So he got to appreciate the desert, the scenery a little bit, and you know, he come came and saved the day for us.

So your first year there, did you like uh hook up, meet up with anybody? Like uh how did it like inspire you?

Yes. Okay. So like one of the first things like so I we're walking around checking everything. out and like, you know, I've got photographs and I'd have to kind of look through them to like kind of remember all of the things that that I experienced in that early year. But the but the thing that really grabbed me was Pepe Oan's Burning Opera. Like as soon as I saw those people, I was like

this is another level of depth. This is like this is not some shallow thing that they should slap together. Like these people are deep into like something and I immediately want to wanted to be part of it. So I was like, how do I join? And you know, I already had kind of like a gothic aesthetic. I was telling you like we were We had these kind of creepy costumes and stuff like that. So that that year the the it was the temple of Rudra, you know.

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he had like all those like uh Vadic insect god creatures and stuff like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now just for the listeners at home, people maybe like haven't been to Burning Man have didn't go that early.

I'm trying to remember. Okay. So they made these figurines out of like uh it was like like

there's rebar and wire mesh and then

rebar wire mesh and then like They put ply mud like over.

Correct. So the actual figures the the kind of insects figures he just kept as mesh but all of the surrounding structure. So basically he he built these things that he called lingums which is like basically the sacred fallus in the Vic tradition. And um and then he would pl so they would build these rebar structures cover them with mesh and then uh and then they would use pia that or actually mud that they gathered from the hot springs is where it came from at that time. You could do that and then and then you plaster he plastered it up and it matched the ply perfectly and then it cracked. just like the play. So these these things literally looked like they're rising made out of play and rising up out of the play. And these things of course they they would they have a wide base and they would taper at the top. So essentially what he was creating was these blast furnace these convection blast furnaces great chimneys and the fire would get so hot that um it it would melt the steel within and collapse the tower during the final ritual. So you do not even need jet fuel to melt steel beams. By the way, Force air, baby. Little fuel and force there.

Pepe was on conspiracy theories. I love it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What what a beautiful, brilliant man that guy was.

The one there was one thing that Okay. Like was it like like pottery when you heat it up? I mean, it's like would it like uh

Right. Well, like back then you could burn directly on the playa and and like Yeah. It would bake into

would it fire it like I mean would you have these like chunks of basically?

It it would like it didn't really hold together cuz it didn't have the like the the ductile plasticity that would allow to retain.

So yeah, it would be kind of chunks of like brick-l like chunks that and like and you we had to dig that s*** out, you know, like

Yeah.

Like part of the LNT was like removing burn scars back in the day before we

So did you actually volunteer with the with the Pepe that year like the first year maybe?

Yes. So So we got right in and they were very welcome and they were like, "Oh yeah, sure, sure." You know, show up at this time for rehearsal, etc., etc. We have a role for you. Like we brought our stilts and everything that we already had. So it's like we were already suited to be in these roles cuz so one of the things is is that like uh so Pepe Ozan like with his burning operas what he would do is he would study certain cultures and their mystical traditions and then he would actually travel to the country and meet like the the the sadus or or the shamans or the uh the the the voodoo priests you know all of these things uh and he would actually get consent to do what he was doing explain what he was doing explain what Burning Man was was doing so it was like it was kind of like this like consensual appropriation It's like it's somewhat challenging to to kind of uh for people to understand that that was like that's a thing that you can do right now because it's like if you're like a white person and you're like doing this voodoo opera or something like that, it's like people might look at you sideways and and like uh think that you're just stealing a culture. But like he really he really did go there and and like and sometimes like even he would bring one back, you know, to like help participate in the ritual and everything like that.

Um

Yeah. Yeah.

And and it was like it was it was not directly there spirit. tradition. It was like a mutation of it like like the the v the like the the the multi-armv faded gods like how perfect is an insect they have multiple arms right so you like had all these insect like creatures and the other thing is that there were sets right so like these these operas were massive productions that had like you know over a hundred people and and they kept getting bigger over the years and um he would start many months in advance and they they so the sex would each meet and they would kind of define like like what they would do and how they would present so they would have like kind of a rough outline of like what does this sect represent and what is the relation to the other sex and they would develop kind of like their their choreography their songs you know uh things like this and so and we would meet regularly and we would do these things so that by the time we hit playa we had this very rich cultural flavor that we just like pop out in the middle of the desert around this like great temple and and and this final ritual. Now that said I would say that like most of the operas were kind of boring to watch like they almost never like started on time. because there's like so much coordination. You have to deal with the weather and like all you're just out there waiting waiting waiting something's going to happen and most of it is like incomprehensible to your average audience member. Well, it looks cool and I see a lot of naked body painted people and they're kind of wiggling and like I you know they're very I don't right I can only imagine what it was like for people to watch. For me for me it was like like I said as soon as I saw these groups I was like totally turned on. I was like this is this is some deep s*** and I want to know exactly what they're doing and what's going on. We

So you were you were performing as well? or you're just like helping. Okay.

Correct.

And what was the the heyday of Pepe? Because I remember like cuz my first year was 96 and I remember seeing like the lingum that year like uh so it's like 96 97 98

right now that

my my memory is that like cuz I wasn't there for the very first ones but like uh so he he he built one and it was like much smaller than the ones that came to follow and all of that stuff and like Paradox Palak and and the Dream Circus Theater just kind of uh imprompt who like made a ritual performance around it. And so that was like their introduction and and kind of marriage with with uh Pepe's artwork. And uh from from then forward it just grew and grew and and uh you know Paradox is an amazing human being. I you know I'm still good friends with Paradox and and like you really had like a that whole culture is kind of like where the neo neotribal aesthetic of Burning Man actually rose from for better or worse. Sorry, you know, but like you know we have the headdresses and all this stuff you know we're bringing all these cultural traditions together because you want to share the cultures like all the it was about like really acceptance and inclusion but like now it's hard to kind of like do that kind of thing without being feuded like like stealing it and

oh like cultural appropriation kind of thing.

So that kind of conversation which is good to have that conversation

yeah

well we'll get around to that stuff. So anyway so like so your dad picks you up and you're you're leaving 98 and you know the the the the standard first year thing people leaving like so what's your thoughts you thinking like okay next year

oh absolutely it's like I'm definitely going back it's just as amazing as I thought it was the so 98 was the year that Dan dos man had like the the one tree there and um so if you're not familiar with that well you were there that was like it like it dripped water during the day and at night dripped water today during the day and it had to like flame at night so you could you could actually kind of like bathe under it but it's like recycled water and like we hope it's filtered and stuff like So that kind of there was some hygiene questions that developed the whole time.

Yeah. I heard it was kind of a hepatitis tree after a while.

Yeah. Right. Exactly. So I don't know if I go into he actually brought it back recently. It was it was hilarious cuz he didn't he didn't show up until after the event and he'd been working on it. So he he still came to the event and like kept working on the one tree but like no one ever f****** saw it. I think that was that last year or the year before? It might have been last year. I think that was last year.

Um he's a very interesting character in his own right. But

yeah. Uh so then yeah. So then you go back 999. I mean so uh what do you what do you get?

Yeah. So so immediately I'm like okay I want to be in this opera like right from the f****** start. I want to be on the ground floor. I want to have an important role you know not just be this bit player that shows up. And uh so the next year was uh mysteral loco. And so that's all like voodoo on based and and um yeah. So that that was incredibly fun as well. Uh uh there's there's a a video of it that you can find online if you if you just look for Mysteral Loco and like there's a whole uh movie directed by Christopher Fueling who was who was there uh doing the direction of that and um and I open the film. So if you want to have a like I don't really like to share like what I look like and like I you know I'm like like you got to you like I like to be a mythological character. You got to catch me and meet me in person to like really get a sense of like who I quote unquote really am you know? Right.

Yeah.

But I'm in that video if you want to see a little bit of what I look like. I open that video.

Oh awesome. So then so who are you camping with? Are you camping with like uh the Pepe and

right into right right into Pepe's camp because it's like just b as far as I can tell it's the coolest s*** that's going on on play. And there's definitely like other stuff that's going on that's that's really cool that that was happening back in the day. But uh but I was kind of like a a more kind of mystically minded person back then. So like uh it really kind of like it was a vibration that resonated to me. And I I still like I love that aspect of of interactive ritual theater and and like I really want to bring that back because There used to be several groups that did that kind of stuff. There were there was like the Living Tarot and and like I can't not a whole lot of them are springing to mind right now, but oh later later uh the Mystic Family Circus kind of grew out of Pepe Ozan's opera was part of that as well. And um I miss I miss that these large groups, large ensembles like creating creating this super rich culture and then we arrive with just like all this richness and just like mob the play like we just take over like certain areas and and like transform them just like with our presence and the way that we acted and our choreographies and our chants and like all that stuff. It was just really fun.

Do you think are there still like groups like this nowadays or was this like the heyday of this kind of years ago?

Link me up with them if you know of one because like I I I I'm finger up in the wind like trying to taste for them and like what I'm getting is that I need to create that if I want to see that again.

So was this like what you're talking about like 98 99 back then kind of like where the hat like so how so how long was your involvement with this like because Well, really I just

right I just did 989 and like I I regret not participating in the further ones because you know Pepe died like not that long after that and like I didn't really understand at the time what a rare and rich person he was

and and like those individuals do not f****** come along every day and like being able to participate in some of their projects

is is like a special thing, you know?

Um and there's a lot of characters like that, you know. It's like this isn't just going to happen again, you know. The these are unique you know, individuals that have like these these wild visions that that are that are special to themselves.

Well, it's kind of like that the nature of of Black Rock City and the player, right? Absolutely. It's as ephemeral. I mean, it's like the man you it's like why burn him? So, it's like so he can build him again, you know? Like,

so the reason that I didn't participate in the arc and the narr was because like I felt like it was getting overly refined and they they had changed it from from four sex to two and it I thought it was trit and cheesy. We had we had

uh it was basically there was a sun and moon moon, right? It was I forget it was like uh sun pools and like moon something and it's like it was very like masculine feminine and it's like it's like you could be a male and participate in the feminine or be you know but it was just like so it bored me like that that the the reduction

of it like that.

So what did you move on to after that? Did you like volunteer? I remember you talking about you worked with like building like the man base or something.

Well uh that didn't happen until much later. That that happened in as as kind of like my return is like when I got fan base.

But in 2001, you know, it's like I I had kind of separated from like being as interested in the opera because I didn't really feel it like had enough room to like uh uh allow my creativity to unfold all the way.

Okay.

Um I had an experience where my life was falling kind of falling apart. You know, it's like I broke up with my girlfriend who I who I met in the opera. Um I uh we lost our place to live because my my best friend's girlfriend was loud and happy and we were young and there was a school teacher lived upstairs so she won as far as like who got to stay.

Uh it was it was I still deeply offended by that because all she did was talk loud and like we kept getting noise complaints. We weren't playing music or anything.

Um

right. So uh lost my job,

uh broke up with my girlfriend and got kicked out of my place to stay. And so this is like close to like Burning Man time coming up. And so I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to go out to the desert and I'm just going to stay there as long as I possibly can. And um and so that's what I did. I uh

Did you work DPW?

Well, what I did is I sent I sent uh Dan like a uh an email.

Um Oh, that's uh my girlfriend. That's like a opening. Yeah. Yeah.

Check on your feeling.

Yeah, I'm totally

Okay. Yeah,

what's that?

I'm taking this and putting it on the casket.

Oh, that's awesome.

No, not not his stencil. I'm going to scrape it.

Okay, cool.

Okay.

All right. Bye.

Sorry about that.

No, that's For the listeners, I just wanted to say uh we're doing this interview. Inani is right now at Love Burn in uh what's in Miami, right?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm in Florida right now. So, you're live from Loveurn and we that we burn tonight, you know.

And so, you're part of like you're volunteering. You're helping like set up and build

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so I had a major role in uh uh leading some of the interior structure of the heart. I I participate last year. Last year, our effigy was like a rocket ship. This year is like this winged heart.

And then we had like a a special ornamental surprise uh that we also had an addition uh that we rested inside a coffin and like if you're not uh familiar with the controversy there's been a little bit of a clashing between the loveurn community and the parent organization and

yeah yeah yeah well well let's just explain it a little bit for the listeners and then we'll uh

right so so uh you know Steven Rasp dropped a letter and there's been some kind of conflict about whether like loveurn was like really like uh embodying the principles or not and and um I guess the or and there's been like an ongoing conversation and they sent people here to check it out and they said, "Well, this isn't right and that's not right and etc." And and and like you know, I I'm of a very anarchistic mindset and like the ethos really means something to me. So, I don't really see like seeing the the the ethos like parasetized. So, anyone that is drawing off the ethos for some kind of personal gain, whether it's for their to boost their ego, to climb some stupid like corporate hierarchy structure,

um to to try uh You know, it's like I don't

Yeah. Well, exactly. Like especially to make money, but like but also like I I've loosened up a little bit around the money thing like like because you know it's challenging to do this all with volunteer effort because some of it does require like point people that are kind of holding all of the information. In order for them to do that, they need to do it like full-time. And like if they're doing that full-time, they're not making a wage or they're independently wealthy. So that really limits like who you can have in those positions. We want them to be ailable for anyone's capable of doing them. So having a stipend I understand, but like there's a problem where like you create a cookie jar and like people just start sticking their hands in it and then everybody else is like, "Where's my cookie?" And then like it's really hard to get people's hands out the cookie jar. So it creates like kind of an intractable situation that has not been the best for this community in my mind.

So anyway,

so for for Love Burn, there was like a a dispute and then like uh

basically it's it's not like an officially sanctioned longer a sanction events and and like the by and large the the the response to that has been like good we like it doesn't matter and and like so I don't I and and like they've continued to be kind of persecuto like I really question like what the benefit of the regional network really is because I I it's supposed to be kind of preserving the culture but what I'm really like finding and witnessing is that it's more like used like uh as a hammer to bash like like actual grassroot communities that are well-loved like this is a really well-loved event it's very large event It's 10% like the size of Burning Man itself.

I think it's like it's was like one of the top three Burning Man events, right? I mean, there was there's a Africa burn. Uh that's right. Midburn in Israel, which which is another one that burn that's another story.

So, I would say Bernie Burning Man is doing it wrong. Like, if if they wanted to like try to reel in the culture, I think they f***** up. I think they really stuck their foot in their mouth.

The whole regional network, I mean, like that's a whole episode or three or four. Like and like

we've we've got a community that we started in Eugene and like our events are not bigger than 50 to 100 people. We got f****** letter.

I mean I was involved.

What are you doing?

Yeah. I mean like I first became a regional contact. I started the Hawaii regional in 2002 and then I did it for 10 years before you know retiring and then

uh

but yeah I mean I don't know regional network is a it's a different uh

right and where how does how does the regional network serve the the volunteers and the participants because as far as I can tell it does not it is only there to protect intellectual property.

Yeah. Well, anyway, well, we'll get back to that. So, like back to you. Uh so, you're like, uh you're you're done with the the the opera and uh

Oh, right. So, so um

Right. So, I'm going to Burning Man and I'm not coming home until they make me. Right.

Yeah. So, you or what are you doing?

This is when I sent my email to Dan. I said like, Dan, like I I think that I'd like to to join cleanup. I I hear that you're the guy to talk to and he's like, "Yeah." He gave me the lowdown is like, you know, meet me here and like all that stuff after the event. And that's exactly what I did. It's like I stayed and like cleaned up the ply with Dan and Dan as far as I know is the first cleanup manager and he worked with Chris Shart who went on to do Paraluna and all of those like beautiful LED uh stroboscopic uh sculptures

and um it's very interesting because he kind of Chris Shart had like his crew and Dan had his crew and they clashed a little bit because Dan Dan had kind of like more like I don't know actually I I don't want to actually like encapsulate it, but I remember there was like this

like we were also working with like some very like kind of rough and interesting characters called the end of the world circus and like they were really like kind of like it was like punk rock shock circus like these were like rough f****** kids, right? Like they would do things like eat broken glass and like puke into each other's mouths, you know? Like that was their f****** show and like fun,

you know?

Yeah. Really rough. And then like um Oh man, it was the commissary back then was so fun. because it's just like a relatively small like shade structure and like all of the the wooden tables were just 4x8 sheets of plywood that had just like a coat of paint on them. And so like after after uh uh dinner we would we'd eat our food and then we like a lot of us were artists and we would bust out our pens and like whatever and draw all over the tables and there's like the most amazing art like over everything. It was just

so so fun and so creative and it's like I wonder if any of that stuff they burn tires in their camp but like you know you know like yeah they were they were like I I remember Uh, so Flynn Mouth was mouthy mouth was like the the assistant manager at one point and like um so the end of the world circus is like like throwing firecrackers like in the middle of dinner on the table, you know, lit, you know, while we're eating, you know, lighting like bottle rockets out of their ass and stuff like that and like and like there's these two gentle Canadian girls that go up to Flynn and like say, "Isn't there anything you can do about this?" And like Flynn just kind of like grins and like smiles and said, "No. Not really.

So, were you like uh was that just a oneoff like just that one year or did you like

Yep. I just did well that well that was fun and so I was like well the next year I want to do build. So like uh uh so the following year I guess so uh I I guess that gosh was that 99? What 99 was the year that I did the opera?

Yeah I thought you were like into like a 2000

so I guess I Okay, so 2000 was cleanup. 2001 was built. Okay. And by the way, that cleanup, as far as I know, that was like the first like organized resto. Larry had asked Dan personally, "If you want to do it, and Dan's response was like, well, if I'm going to do this, then then I need everybody in the city to be on my crew, which is like a brilliant strategy." He's like really intelligent, interesting dude. But like um yeah, so so a lot of the there's a lot of cultural thing contributions that Dan's made and and like some of some of the that the the it wasn't called Resto then. It was called cleanup. But there's a lot of things that he kind of set that are still in play today, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Need to be utilized. But

okay. So then you came back and you helped build 2001. Come back for build. Um uh so um

this is not building the man yet. I um so I want to apply for DPW built the city and like and uh so I applied for DPW and now there's like a freaking interview and I was like oh s***. So like I'm all So they're like yeah come in for an interview. I have to go to San Francisco, go to the honor office and talk to somebody to join DPW to see if I'm fit to join. And like, so I'm all nervous and I'm like, what am I going to say? Like, how do I present myself, etc., etc. And um

and I walk in there and there's this giant print of me like up in the office

that was taken by these French photographers like around the one tree in in 1998 because I had my my gas mask on and my stilts and claws and everything like that and they did this all like uh this light effect thing where they do the time lapse exposure and there I am right there and I was like and so I immediately relaxed I was like okay I belong here right so I made it on to the crew obviously and I was kind of like essentially what you call a rousy these days because like I kind of bopped around into like all the different kind of things that are done to build the city I did signs I did a survey um spires like uh I don't remember if I did shade or not but you know pretty much like a little bit of everything. Um and um

so was it just for that one year or did you do it like a couple

I just did it for that one year. So I basically had two years uh uh the cleanup here is also where I went I met uh Metric who is a dear friend of mine who went on to run the the Burning Man work ranch for nine years and uh

yeah and he's he's actually here for his first love burn and uh and I'm very excited to go and say hello to him because I really love that guy.

Yeah.

Wow. So then uh so after a cleanup after DPW. It's like weird.

One story. One story like during So, I'm pretty sure it was the build year.

Um, see, was it the build year or was it the cleanup year? Actually, I think it might have been the cleanup year. Clean up or build I I think it was the build year. But like, so we are getting our stuff together. There's only two vehicles. There's a truck that has like a very large camper trailer on it. And there's my truck and like I'm essentially uh by myself. I think maybe I had a passenger with me. I can't recall. And um they take off like blazing fast. And I'm like, "Well, I'm not driving that f****** fast." And they and they go come off the plow. They go up the road uh over the hump, you know, where the road uh dives down on the way to the work ranch. And like, you know, I slowly trail along behind them

and like I come over that hump and that trailer is on its side. And there's a bunch of DPW in the back of that pickup truck and unfortunately one of them, I think his name was Craig, was underneath that camper trailer.

Oh my god.

He died there on the spot.

Wow.

It was a very rough year. There was there was a couple other circumstances. Uh, and again, it's like I'm getting some of the years confused, but there was also like a motorcycle accident that we came out across there. One of the the people were was deceased.

Wow.

And we had to have him like the other surviving member had bones sticking out of his body and they've been there all night and they had to lift him out of there

and with with the DPW death. I was the first person on site that wasn't involved in the accident. They can't drive their vehicle. So, I had to drive and they had no radio contact because they're in this kind of like pit. So, like nobody f****** knew.

So, I have to drive back to the work branch and tell everybody what happened.

Wow. That's crazy.

The fly will kill you.

Yes. Yes. That's like the TPW.

Yeah. And Coyote continues to tell that story to this day to get people to leave like kind of a little bit more careful on those roads.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah. So, that's kind of what early 2000. So, what's you what have you been up to on the play since then? And what are you planning for this year?

Okay. Well, uh so I went once into 2010, you know, mostly was just to uh um help Dan watch his my stepson because like one of the things that I didn't mention is that like I fell in love with Dan's girlfriend during cleanup and I ended up marrying her.

Oh.

But but in in the meanwhiles like she was like kind of hanging out with both of us. She gets pregnant with like uh 's now my stepson, his son. And uh we also go on to like u it wasn't really like a a Paulie thing. It was more like we were both interested her. She was but hanging out with both of us. So well it was kind kind of that but it's like wasn't like you know there was no romance between Dan and I. We were just good friends, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But like you know hats off to Dan for enduring that. I remember sitting sitting in the in the uh the heads that were built by Dan Dos man and like I'm up in those heads and and like and and we're hanging out, you know, just talking about whatever. And I was like, "Dan, I got to tell you something." And and he's like, "What?" And it's like, "Well, I really I really love that girl you're hanging out with." And he's like, "Yeah, I love her, too." And it's like, "Yeah, but Dan, I really love her." Like, well, okay, I understand. May the best man win. And I was like, "No, it's not even like about the best man. I just I just really like her and whatever." And we But so like I ended up, you know, marrying her, but we all kind of like still stayed together as like a unit like but but f first she got pregnant and she like she she told me she was like well uh I I'm pregnant with this kid I really need to be with Dan so like for a little while to help raise up this kid and I was and like you know I'll be back though you know because I'm interested and it's like I never met anyone with that kind of integrity so I was like yeah yeah whatever you know like sure enough few years later I get a knock on my door and there she is and she's like so I'm curious what this is all about and so we ended up getting married uh we ended up buying some property in uh uh Menoscino County and building uh two intentional communities on four pieces of property

because A lot of us have have have that uh that kind of epiphany like especially that first time we're like wow why can't life be like this all the time and so that so we went exploration

and kind of like discovering you know what it might be like and I won't say like our our communities were entirely based on on like the Burning Man ethos. It wasn't like a a Burning Man like intentional community but it like had a lot of like those those ideas at his core and we had f****** Dan and we threw these amazing block parties that we did not ask permission for. We just made friends with all of our neighbors and like you know it's city of 5,000 people, like 20% of the town would show up at our overnight block parties. Wow.

And like we would get away with it. Like the shot the cop we would close down the street because everybody on the street was on board and like the cops would show up and they they might tell turn down the music, but they never like shut us down or anything like that.

Ah. So are these intentional communities still operating?

They they are still there, but like you know as as happens there was riffs, there was disputes and and like and I I ended up splitting up with her and um

and And like we had made an agreement once things started to go south that I would be the one to leave. Like cuz she said like I can't I don't think that I can handle like seeing you carrying on with someone else in the same community. So like one of us has got to go. And like we went back and forth on who that would be. And like really like she really like held the community together. So it really was more appropriate for her to stay. It's like I I I built a lot of s***. Like I built a lot of the infrastructure and stuff like that. We all had our roles that we we played. You know, Dan had the had the credit so that we could get a loan and like but we didn't have a credit history. But we we we like had good income or we were working hard for income. Like we're all working but like

um so we all we all came up with our chunk, cracked our nut and like you know just slowly built it you know from a little acorn you know sprouting this this community.

Yeah. Yeah. So have you been continuously going to Burning Man this entire time or did you like take some time?

No. So so that's the thing is that there really was no time for Burning Man during the during this project. So that so that was like a 15 year plus like like hiatus and I only went once in the middle of that and I went mostly just to help Dan watch Sage because Sage, you know, he Sage went like when he was only like a few weeks old and for the earliest years of his life, he he went, but then like um uh you know, my his mother didn't feel like it was appropriate for him to to like continue going at a certain age like um because it was just challenging to explain things, etc., etc.

But then when he was like around like somewhere between 12 and 14, it started to be like okay again. And so that that that was kind of I think that might have been Sage's return to Burning Man is like is is why I uh went back and um that was an awesome time too. Uh

so what years did you like what year did you like stop and what year did you go back?

98 through 2003 that was kind of my first run. Okay.

And then I went 2010 and then after I split up with with my now ex-wife. Uh I came back uh in 2019 and that and and like the way that that happened is like you know we had been split up for for like a year or so and then um and You know, I was talking to Dan. I was like, and he said like, "Oh, we were just conversation." I was like, "I'm going to go and help build the man." I was like, "Oh, really? Need any help?" And uh he was like, "Um, well, I can put in a word for you. I can talk to Kima and see what she has to say." And like he got me on the crew and uh I initially made a very good impression because I have some a fair amount of carpentry skills and like uh

Well, you also work with DPW and Resto and stuff. Yeah.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so like I really kicked ass on that crew and I was invited to to join the uh And also you have like the biggest credential of all, right? It's like you can just point to that poster

with the one tree and just be like, "You see that?"

Oh, right. Right. I belong here. There you go.

Right. Yeah. Right. Um so, um

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so we worked on the man and that was tremendous honor and like um so, so one of the things they do is like kind of embellish the chest plate, you know, minimally but and so there was some talk about and usually there's like some kind of thematic elements like all of like kind of like the fine delay t detailing that you can't really see from the ground very well that's all decided by the crew because so it's kind that and that really like helps root the crew into the project because you get really into these details that you get to decide uh go on the man it feels like just such a tremendous honor um and uh so that was the metamorphosis year and like we kind of thought that like the idea of cocoon and butterfly was kind of cheesy and a little bit like like too on the nose and so like I I had always had a passion for snakes. So I had a little a few side conversations with the crew and I started like like incepting this idea like well snakes cuz like you know they shed their skin you know rebirth kind of thing and then like um so then when it came time to like you know talk about it then we all kind of agreed that snakes was the theme and um um the the contribution that I had was was to do this kind of likeius kind of thing on the chest with the snakes winding around found one another.

And um it was the largest ornament that had ever gone onto the chest of the man from what I understand. And I have this technique with an angle grinder and none of them had ever seen that before where I can actually carve with it. And so I carved in relief like all these scales on the snakes. And then I stained one of them like like a a bronze color and and the other one I just stained with like with linseed and then I created little standoffs and then smoke daddy like like backlit them. So we had those on both sides. Anyway, I was tremendously honored that I got that they allowed me to do that. I mean, it came out f****** fantastic. And but

I'd love to see a picture of that. Yeah,

I will send it to you. But it was like being able to just put my thumb print right on his chest. Right on his heart.

Wow.

And and they also have a tradition where you get to build the heart. Um the the new members of the crew, you know, the heart of the M. And um I had the honor of doing that with Ashes, another new member of the crew. And we made uh uh kind of partially at Steve 23 suggestion uh uh because we were kind of struggling what to do like Apple of Aerys if you're familiar with Discordianism.

No.

And so he made this really well.

Yeah. Yeah. Ask Danger about Discordianism, but like it it has a heavily influential role on cacophony society as well. But it's like basically a worship of the goddess Aerys, the goddess of chaos. And it basically uh

it was born out of the acidfueled conversation in a bowling alley between two old hippies or now I mean they became old. I think they were young guys at the time. And they developed they cultivated like this whole like religion around this this ays goddess who's only like there's very there's only like one major story about the goddess of Arys and um they really expanded on that lore and then like later like uh Robert Anton Wilson who uh who wrote he wrote the Illuminati trilogy which is an expansion of of uh the Discordian lore and it's kind of like the Discordians are the ones that fight the Illuminati. All right so Illuminati are are are like anoristic which means like against a

you know and uh

so they are the one they so Discordians believe that chaos is fundamental, right? And so they're always trying to disrupt the the the uh the hunchrained like activities of the gray faces which wish who wish to constrain and and uh and uh turn everything into just these uh beige tickyty tacky boxes with no life or vitality whatsoever.

So it's an incredibly like rich uh um culture and community and it's still active today. You can find the Facebook groups and like

you will part everyone is a pope. All right, so that's one thing. and and you are encouraged to create your own faction of Discordianism. They are often rivaling each other. You can excommunicate other Discordians and you're encouraged to do it. Like so they're constantly rivaling and just like there's a lot of trolling that goes on and etc. The the number 23 and if you've ever heard the word snort

are u are sigils that relate to uh Discordianism. But anyway

well let's get back to you. Um so so those 2019 you were working on the man, right? The 2020 happens and everybody knows, you know, it's like no Burning Man. The 2021 again, no Burning Man, but uh uh

21, right? I was heavily involved in that.

Yeah. So like I had been on man. So in 2020 like uh you know I I so I I had had this

this concept for a really long time for this this like reverse mobile where instead of hanging it stacked asymmetric levers and it was inspired by the state performance that I I saw by Mo Rio.

Um

where she takes a feather. You've probably seen it. And then and then there's

Yeah. And then there's a small like palm frron that she bounces on and then there's a larger one and a larger one. A larger one. She makes this kind of construction that kind of like a swifting, you know, drifting a swaying and like she puts it on head and then she like walks around, you know, and then puts it on top of another like like a pivot point and then she pulls the feather off and it all falls down. Well, I knew immediately as soon as I saw that thing that even that that that most of her deep concentration was formative and it that most of what was happening was physics. And so my brain started to spin and like all the things that you could do with this concept. And I realized if you change the contour of the shape a little bit, you could get these things that each one of them to rotate 360° independently and gain elevation. So I I thought I had this concept like like many years ago and I tried it with like little pieces of clay and wire and I could never get it to work and I was like, well maybe I just don't understand physics as well as I think I do and like this doesn't work. And then in in uh 2019 I saw a piece where it was very clear that that's what trying someone was trying to do but they didn't understand the concept at all. Like I don't want to disrespect the artist because like

um

well you saw something that you could improve upon. You're like ah

right. Basically basically they ended up welding it all together because it didn't work because they didn't and I I sought out that who it was that that that did it and there was a rift and basically there were certain people that were the builders and there was somebody that actually engineered it and he was inspired by the concept and like he had to leave for a little while and then they didn't want to listen to him anymore and they didn't understand at all how this thing worked. So they they end up like scrapping these things together, of course. And this thing is dangerous. So they end up having to like stick all these poles to prop it up. It doesn't move, you know, like but I saw it and I and I shoot this stack thing with this feather on top and and I'm like, "What the f***?" You know, it's like I didn't think anyone else in the world would have the same kind of concept going on, you know? It's like, but someone else had the same idea that I had. And I was like and I was like, "That's not how that thing goes. I know how that goes." And once I saw the large version of it, I was like, "I need to think bigger. And like and that's uh I started playing with larger pieces of wood and concrete and stuff like that. And I got it to work. I got it f****** work, man. And it doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. There's a lot of uh major rigos um his inventions and stuff that like like are a little bit similar. Then there's other like kinetic artists that also have somewhat similar, but they all like kind of freeze the pivot. There's little little differences where it doesn't have the same free range of motion that that that my piece does. So I'm very very proud of figuring that thing out.

So is this something you you brought to Burning Man or you built something.

I brought this to the Albert desert in 2020 because I got the thing to freaking work and um but it's during COVID and we hear that there are some people gathering in Albert. They do it in like a pretty dispersed camping kind of way. There's maybe like a hundred people total through like various dispersed camps and I was like well I'm going to bring a piece of art and so I have this thing all worked out and I bring it out there and like of course and like I wrap like LEDs around it and like the LEDs are like so cool because the way that the this thing moves so organically in the wind it look at night It just looks like this moving constellation. And so you're like, "What's going on?" You don't because you don't see the rest of the structure. All you see is these these lights moving and drifting around this really strange organic way. And like um of course I got a lot of the hippie ravers and like you know people are used to burning man. They go to stuff like this and they're like you know namaste. Thank you for bringing the art and like so so like uh I appreciated that. That felt good. But what really made me feel good is the is the locals that were just out there for Labor Day that show up in their freaking golf carts with a with a gun strapped to their And they're like blown away. They're like, "What is this? How did you think of this?" And they like have no idea about our culture. And they're all these They were so like, "Wow." You know, it's like and that wow is like what you live for as a as an artist.

Oh, yeah. So, how did that lead to like renegade burn because that was

Renegade?

Yeah. Yeah.

Renegade, right? So, so like, so Renegade comes around. So, there's some of us that feel like it's time to gather again. Like, we're not buying all this lockdown stuff and and like, you know, we can be careful. We can do this in a Safeway. Um the the event gets cancelled again. You know, the this culture that is like, you know, choose your own adventure, you know, take the risk that you want to take or don't, you know, it's your choice has decided to to cancel this thing. Of course, Larry died in 2018, too. And like, so he's not around to to like kind of contribute to those decisions. And so decisions are being made that maybe not be

square in accordance with the ethos, but um so it it starts to become very apparent to me that there's a real ground swell here that this is this is going to be a thing. This isn't like there was there was one that we didn't go to the previous year that had like I don't know a thousand people at it or something I think was what was reported.

Um but like it became apparent to me that it's like people are really ready to gather and this is really going to happen and like so there's there's some of us that on man crew that started to kind of bubble amongst ourselves and I was s suggesting this idea this kind of reverse field of dream concepts is like they're coming we should build it right.

Yeah. So

2021 Like I mean so what did you say there was like like 15,000 people show up in the black.

That's correct. There's 20. It ended up being around 15,000 and those are BLM numbers so they they're probably pretty accurate. Um so uh yeah so we start to talk amongst ourselves like let's build him the man like the full f****** thing. We'll bring the man to the desert, you know? And so we start like you know plotting and planning about that for like 3 days. And then like um I see a post from from uh Sergeant Pepper online who was one of the non-organizers of the non-event that weren't allowed to do.

Um, saying like, "Hey, is there anyone from Man Crew? Does anyone have any contacts?" And I was like, "Uh, and I was like, "Oh." And like, so I was like, "Oh, what's what are they doing?" I was like, "I I'm I'm with Man Crew. I think that maybe we should talk." And he's like, "Oh, should I bring a lawyer?" And I'm like, "No, no, no. We should have a conversation." You know, and like basically like the amazing like like So Sergeant Pepper and Loax are are who I would indicate are uh Woody Harold or not Um I don't know if I

No, no, no. I was about some wave Herald. I think that was it. He he did the the map system so that people could plot themselves and you could find your friends and you could like pace your camp down. And this was all like decentralized, you know, horizontal. So I'd say that these these were like point people that had like concepts and and like so it basically was all organized out of this Facebook group

plan B and um basically and it was just about ideas like here are some ideas we think these are good ideas. I designed is here's a tool that you can use if you wish to. How are we going to s*** out there? Here's how to s*** in a bucket. Here's how to take care of it after the event, etc., etc. Um, and the way that that all come together was really amazing. So, we had our conversation and like uh and and he was like I started telling about our plans to build a man. I was like, "We're going to bring you man." At that at that time that we had the conversation, they were still going to allow us burns and like uh art and stuff like that. BLM was like, "Well, just submit your plan or submit for a permit and and like you know, we'll grant permits." And but they got swamped with permits and so they just had to put the kaibos on it because they couldn't handle the influx.

And so basically what they decided is that you could not have like a a a structure that wasn't dedicated to either like a kitchen uh eating or sleeping. You could those are the things they allowed structures for. Anything else was considered abandoned property. You couldn't leave it there. You couldn't build it, you know.

So yeah, this is 2021 renegade burn happens like uh so like I so 22 23 24 like Bernie man happens again and then uh what I've heard is like

I didn't even get to the manticor we built the thing that we built.

Oh yeah. What did you guys build?

Yeah. So so like what we found out is that they had already built a man. Not only that they had several versions of it 24 foot tall because of insurance requirements. But um because once you get over 24 feet you go up into another tier of insurance.

Oh.

And so we we we bounded amongst amongst ourselves. We tossed back and forth. Well maybe we could build a second man you know maybe we could have them like compete. We could flow like flaming trebuche shops and try and light each other on fire and stuff like that. And they they thought that that was cute, but they were like, "Have you looked at the insurance on that?" And I was like, "By the way, we already have a trebuche that has like a

we we already have a trebuche that has a telephone pole." And I was like, "Wow, these guys are so impressive." Um,

so we decided to pivot and make a familiar for the man. And that's when we created the manticor. So there's a uh the idea is we do a creature that was like a friend of the man. And uh so a few ideas were floated cat dog, but I was like me as an artist. I was like if you want to engage me then like I want something more. And so, so I thought for a little bit and there is a mythological creature called the manticor. It has the body of a lion, the wings of a dragon and the tail of a scorpion but also the face of the man. And so we decided to make this creature with the man face. We do it all built out in the man style.

And so we did this and we also gave it like catlock cat feature in of course all of these things have their own stories. And um

wow.

So meanwhile uh the the the crew that had built the man gets a cease and desist lawyer letter from BLM saying like do not f****** bring that man here because they're worried about arson. So we ended up being the central effigy of the event. He went right to the center which is what we start

and we just had to camp we just had to camp with it the whole time. Yeah.

It's like no kitchen.

All right. So I'm sensing you want to move the conversation forward. So like what do you want to talk about?

Uh well let's say let's just end up with um where you're at now. Like what what are your plans for bringing to the this year?

I didn't even like cover any of my notes, Andy. Like, I've got hours to talk about here.

Well, we may have to do another show sometime, too.

So, so one one thing is that I I I have I'm calling it diehacking, you know, a spoonerism of hijack. I I'm jihacking the Burning Man uh philosophical center, and that has started with a a uh a Facebook group, which everyone who is interested in joining and like having a contribution uh that is not controlled by the central organization of Burning Man uh and would like to have a voice about what our culture is about going forward, I would really love it if you would join, invite your friends and um my strategy with it is to make everyone who is open to it an admin so that we all have a secret uh or or an equal like seat at the table and to have high context uh uh and um high concept ideas about the future of Burning Man because I feel like that that the access point for that has disappeared and there's been a lot of OGs that have lamented to me that like you know Larry used to be my way of getting my ideas like infused into into what we are doing and that has gone missing. I don't know where I fit anymore and unfortunately we are losing a lot of talent and a lot of deep rich culture because these people do not know how to fit and so I am really trying to create a place for that to happen and I'm doing this without asking permission. I'm definitely not going to apologize and um we are going to have a physical annex on play this year. Uh we will be uh part of Naked Heart and we're going to build a pavilion with an actual round table which will h have the the city emblazed upon it. The the cover of of the dome. Uh uh I would I envision us having like a brain shape on it.

But we'll see what that ends up looking like. But the whole purpose and it might have many features. If you are an artist that has like like concepts that are related to what we want to do here. I really love your input and collaboration. We probably have space for you in camp. Um the idea is to hold these conversations and it's like it's not so much about presentation which is kind of what the Burning Man Philosophical Center has involved into. It's like we're kind of this from on high. Here's our podcast. Here's the history. But it's really like it really feels a lot like the past like like what the those presentations are. And I want to like uh well, one way that I put it is that we have an overabundance of leadership and we have an absence of vision. I feel like the vision has has become so much by trying to make things accessible that we have this like Disney version of what we used to be in. We have lost this wild raw fringe which I wish to bring back with its full heart and its full throat. Well, I I completely agree with you and that's why like I completely support your project. Like I just I love like discussion. I love debate, you know, and and it feels like over time people like I don't know maybe people feel afraid to like to speak up and like like this this Facebook the the Britmanian philosophical center like there's been some very very interesting discussions going on over there. I really encourage people to like go and check it out and join it.

Yeah, we we Please do check it out and please don't be like, okay, so so one thing that happens is people will see like a certain political perspective or something like that and it's like politics f****** sucks in these conversations and I really wish it would just go away but it's like I just don't want to tell people what to do and what to talk about. So it's like just because you see something presented in this group that like you don't align with,

you know, don't don't just f****** turn around like

talk, you know, and like it's not and it's not just about butdding heads and like trying to decide who gets to speak. Like the whole concept is is like Everybody gets to speak. And if you don't like what you hear, then f****** participate. Say something. Say something. Move me.

And it's not about deciding like who's the Nazi.

Right. Exactly. It's like it just it devolves into that so much and it just disgusts me. And it's like we we turn each other into these cartoon characters on the internet that do not reflect our our deep inner nature nature as individuals. And this is so antithetical of everything that we represent. And I and and it's a scourge. It's a goddamn parasite. And it's like so so some will complain about the woke mind virus. But what I'm seeing is the anti-woke mind virus is just as much as the mind of a mind virus. And both things they're not that good. And like anytime that like there's like some kind of like quick quip that you can do to like kind of like um consolidate a bunch of ideas, be careful of that because like it's not really you thinking anymore. And the difference between a wise crowd and a mob mentality or group think as someone might might put into it is that a wise crowd is populated by individuals that have diverse and independ perspectives. As soon as you lose that, then basically that crowd is behaving like one person or two people at mode, right? And so like you don't really get that wisdom anymore. Instead, you have a mob and that does not grow us or move us forward in any direction. And if you really want change to change the way people think, you need to see them as f****** people.

Oh, yeah. Here, here. Yeah.

Yeah.

All right. Well, uh, let's see. We're about an hour in. We only have about like 10 15 more minutes left. I I I think I'm just going to have to have you come back. We'll talk about some more stuff another point in time. But um

but well, we'll just skip to the the the the juicy nugget of this show, the shadow of the man. Like, so what is the impact of the man on you in all these years? I mean, you

oh my god,

it's inspired you. You've gone back year after year. Like why why

it's hugely shaped who I am as an adult and like and it's because it's a place that I fit because I like like I said, is like I would I would get this like I used to do all kinds of like weird stuff like like just gorilla street art and like things like that because I would have this just like well first of all I was born as like got born into a family that was were Jehovah's Witnesses. So I was like born into this kind of very constrained Christian cult like kind of mindset.

Oh yeah. We didn't even go into your background at all. You want to just like quick like uh like whatever 30 secondary just it's like you know like your like what your life before Burning Man.

Yeah exactly. So it's like I grew up and like around the age of 14 and like I I was taught like all all these kind of crazy things that like the adults around me really believe like like such as demons are real and they can inhabit objects and people and it's like imagine how terrifying that is as a child. I I frankly think that that that it's child abuse to like teach these things, you know, as though they are true. It's like how f****** terrifying. It was terrifying, you know? I remember like I saw a fence once that had a bunch of butterflies sunning themselves, but they had black wings but and so I didn't know what it was at first and I and and I thought it was like these mouths opening and closing on the fence and I was like, "Oh s***, it's a f****** demon, you know, like so I was always like scared of demons and um and then I ironically one of my first like personas and costumes at Burning Man was a demon and it didn't look anything like a traditional demon but like selfidentified as a demon which used to which originally means

be funny if somebody came up to you just like wow awesome butterfly man.

That's so beautiful.

Yeah.

So there was so I was really constrained. I was always like kind of like I don't know smart quirky kid. and like there just wasn't any place for me to fit. So, I got into art. That was one of the ways that I was kind of like allowed to express myself or whatever. And and um and around the age of 14, like there was an elder that gave a talk in the Kingdom Hall and like and it was very focused about like not standing out too much and like allowing the the the the Watchtower and Bible Track Society to make your decisions on on on the level of how much you expressed yourself and stuff like that. And I was like, "This whole thing's f****** b*******." I kind of always suspected that there's no room for me that how can like the thing that I that I most intrinsically am be wrong. This is not make sense. And so I say that is when my heart left that faith and like of course I was still under my my mother and father's roof and so it's like I still go to the meetings and like whatever but that is and later I talked to my mom about it and she's like yeah I know I know that moment exactly because as those words were coming out of his mouth I was like you're losing my son is what I was thinking inside and like for fortunately

they also like eventually left the truth but the quote unquote truth be careful at that f****** word. Every time I hear that capital T letter truth, which you're like certain individuals, certain technomagnates like to use, you are entering a cult mentality, my friend.

Yeah.

Because there there are certain things that that are empirically true, but most of the world has various perspectives and

there are multiple things that can be true, especially when it comes like to social perspectives etc. Be careful of the people that think they are prophets of truth.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So uh Uh yeah. So I mean so what's this all mean to you that so like you found your community like uh it was like oh you're not just freak anymore.

Not only am I not a freak but we f****** love you. Bring everything that you have and all that you are because we want to see the most of it because it that is the essence of what we are. And like so yeah when I see these kind of constraints and lockdowns and like these kind of like like negative um ah there's a kind of negativity that I feel has developed. that is is all about constraining things for various reasons and I don't think that it is serving us very well at all.

You're talking just like in general society or like within the Bernie man.

Well, I mean I'm talking specifically about the Bernie man community. I won't say it's all like it's not as extreme as I'm presenting it. That's why I'm still involved and I still love it and there's but like I feel like now there's things that that are under threat that are worth fighting for and we haven't even touched all

but um

well I think that'll have to be another episode I think. Yeah.

So sounds like you like to wrap it up.

Well, I mean, we still have a couple of minutes left, but um

Okay. All right. When we get to two, I when we get to two, I have a song.

You have a song?

Yeah, I got a song.

Oh, awesome.

I'm going to sing. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's just kind of like very similar. I've been finding like uh like with everybody asking like, "Oh, what's your you know, what's the the long shadow of the man in your life?" And it's like I don't know. It just keeps coming back to just like community connection. you know just like I I found like I I I didn't have a place in society then I came here and I was just like these are my people

right

well Emil Durkheim was one of the fathers of sociology um he grew up during the industrial revolution and his obser he his first book was on suicide and his observation is that that we we started to develop these systems that emancipated from these traditional like uh support systems and so now you had more power as an individual but oddly it was not making people happy and the suicide rates were going up the more industrialized a place was and and and like he was an atheist himself, but he also saw the profound influence of religion to connect things together.

Larry's father of course was a profoundly religious person and you know if you listen to Larry talk about about these kinds of things and you can see that there's a there is like this kind of atheistic spirituality that uh that we kind of are are trying to create uh uh to kind of replace that thing that has gone missing that that that Like you're saying, it's about community connection, but it's also about ritual. It's it's about Yeah. It it's about like like doing these things that connect us with one another in a bodily way, you know. Um you know, like so so Durkheim called it collective effervescence. When you when you feel that spirit of unity, you could be talking about a concert or like a football game or anything like that. It's like when you do those collective efforts and especially when they come arising just like unbidden out of a crowd, it's like there is this great uplift of joy like within within the crowd and call that collective effervescence. And like with the Burning Man, I feel like like we create that totem to kind of project our identity and that I that that Burning Man is kind of like the personified um manifestation of the community. It's like all of us like unite our attention into a singular point kind of in the way that our own community iselves within us somehow unite their attention to create that sense of self. And so for at least a brief moment, we can actually feel the resonance of being one with one another. It's not just a high-minded concept. It's not just a spiritual idea. But you actually feel it and there's greater and lesser degrees of that feeling.

Oh yeah. I mean definitely. I think it's like a it's a even if people like can't put like words to it, you know? It's like it's it's a common experience and common feeling. It just also reminded me like what was one of Larry's quotes? He says it's like oh Bernie man is it's like religion except without the higher power or something. Do something like that.

Yeah. Exactly. And and it's like and also there's like a lot of us that it's like yeah we'll say it's like yeah we don't well I don't believe in God. I don't but at the same time like is that f****** thing where we all like unite that intention and like like

so I don't want to call it that because because of all of that the the stigmas and the ideas and the dogmas and and like I think what happens is like originally these cultural traditions did tap into that actual thing but then they created symbols names and signs for it and and books and like all of this stuff and those symbols and signs become wielded like hammers to like crush other people with like the media lost and

deploy I mean to me like the basis of like any religion or and everything. It's like it's it's it's fellowship, you know, it's it's community. It's it's connection. I mean, that's what people are always looking for. I mean, like people,

you know, like with if you look at like studies of like like like putting people like in solitary confinement or like like like children who are abused or like locked in a closet or whatever, you know, like like horrible horrible things happen to people when like when they're kind of isolated and and and incredible things happen when people get together. And I think like when it comes down to it like a lot of religion, it's like that's like the secret sauce. It's it's fellowship. It's like you go to the church on Sunday or the temple on Saturday or the mosque on Friday.

That's why they persist.

Yeah. Because it's like it's your community. It's just like, you know,

providing something.

Yeah. You need a helping hand like, "Oh, we got to put this barn together." You know,

and the problem arises what is is like when you have individual egos that act as an intercessor in between you and that spirit of communion. It's like now you have somebody that that that is presenting themselves as if they're handing out that that union with the rest of the community. And they they do they are certainly may not that does not come from

right that comes from us and now so now they can manipulate you it's like well if you want that connection to the community then you must do as I say

and and like I think Burning Man is very much in danger of that and so so are any of these traditions that that provide that kind of cultural connection when you start to have like avatars and and like I think you know hierofonts aren't entirely bad you know like if they're good

but um sometimes they're not and sometimes they confuse like what they are doing with like a kind of self interest agenda which uh deviates uh the nature of that connection into something that is exclusive and um ultimately destructive.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's a good point. Uh the good cliffhanger for, you know, episode two with Inani coming up.

Well, we'll get all into that. Well, uh um

can I can I do my song and then and then I'll just hang up?

Uh oh, sure. Well, um we'll stop recording and then we'll we'll talk a little more after but yeah

with that

oh no no anything lasts you want to add or any or if anybody wants to

get a hold of you like any way you can contact

so so drop me down on Facebook um and Anie Schroinger definitely join the Burning Man philosophical center and like um what I would like to say is that um this is a poem that is meant to be scream from the back of a crowded rumor on the busy streets my heart beats like a hammer on an anvil There is no man in command of this sad hill. Once a once a once a once a once a once once a once once upon a time. I used to be a mystic. I followed for the fields but now I'm realistic. Feet upon the ground head held high. I don't need your respect. I will tell you why. My heart beats like a hammer on an anvil. Hot crush of my mallet. I'm an iron or bandal. Fet from the fire of every former scandal. Bring your face close. Light your candle. These are the words that the giant speaks from the back of it. From the top of its lungs at the highest mountain peaks. My heart beats like a hammer on an anvil. Thunder is the sound that pulls away the mantle. So talk of the clouds and the winds and the gusts as I'm brushing back the dust from each apostle sando. Twice upon a time I put my faith in gods. Made sense once now I'm at odds. Feet upon the crone head hel. I no need to believe. I will tell you I my heart beats like a hammer on an anvil. No reruns impossible to cancel. Each strike hot straight from the core if you doubt for a moment what the shouting's for. These are the songs that the sirens sing as I'm burning to the ground in a glowing ring. Embers flowing in my mouth as I embers flowing from my mouth as the sky grows dark. But the things you suppress become the strongest part. Thrice upon a time I put my trust in teachers drawn by the radiance of luminous features. Yes, I met a master on the road and I I I I had to put him down. And in the distance they heard a ringing sound. My heart beats like a hammer on an anvil. No regrets, nothing left for the landfill. Corrosive ideology I will dismantle in all b*******. will be brought to a standstill.

Thanks, Andy.

Wow. Awesome. Wow. This is the the the first song that someone sang on my show.

Oh, haven't you had Caveat on Caveat? He'll do some talk.

Okay. I don't want to care about your philosophy. I hear you can sing. Sing monkey.

Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. So, I stuttered a little bit there because I thought I was, you know, a little on the spot, but like that's part of the sacred that's part of the sacred carpenter opera

and um

and I need help like putting it together. So like if if that if those words inspired you and the idea of bringing ritual theater back to Burning Man inspires you, I need help. I need a lot of people that to with skills, ideas, and talent to help me like pull that off because that's that's a large communal effort.

Yeah. Well, again, if anybody wants to to reach you and be part of that effort,

just like search for you at Facebook, Inani Schroddinger.

Inani Schroinger. Um I I spell it with a OE you know to differentiate myself a little bit from the quantum physicist because he has certain aspects of his past which I don't approve of but the concept

anonyi means uh void like empty right

ah

and a shinger of course we're familiar with the the famous shener cat so it's like

yeah

it's just the idea that that that like the thing that that presumes to be myself is mutable depending on who's watching.

Ah excellent. Well, we'll uh leave it there and we'll get back to you. Uh well, enjoy the love burn and thank you for being on the show.

Yeah, this is tremendous fun and um thanks for having me on and and uh you know, you're doing a great thing here and and really appreciate your effort.

Yeah,

thanks.

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