EP 25 Caveat Magister

Episode 25 with Caveat Magister is out now! Learn all about Burning Man’s philosopher laureate and his backstory. He first got involved in Regionals before moving to San Francisco where he first went to Black Rock City in 2006. From the beginning he volunteered with Media Mecca eventually becoming staff (which he did for 5 years, over time becoming their volunteer coordinator). In 2010-11 he started to write for the Burning Man Journal where he has written many articles over the years. After avoiding him for a few years Caveat first met Larry Harvey in 2013 and started a great friendship. In 2015 Larry brought together Caveat, Stuart Mangrum, and himself to found the Burning Man Philosophical Center. Since then Caveat has written a number of Burning Man Journal articles and written two books (The Scene That Became Cities and Turn Your Life Into Art) while also helping to ghost write a few other books. Caveat is a very knowledgeable and thoughtful writer whose books and articles about the world of Burning Man and beyond has been a touchstone for at least a generation or two (and perhaps more into the future). He is truly one of the gems of the community and a wonderful person, please give this episode a listen and learn all about Burning Man’s own Caveat Magister.

Please visit https://shadowoftheman.buzzsprout.com/ for all of the details and links.

Books by Caveat:

The Scene That Became Cities: What Burning Man Philosophy Can Teach Us about Building Better Communities

Turn Your Life Into Art: Lessons in Psychomagic from the San Francisco Underground

https://fascinatingstranger.com/

https://journal.burningman.org/author/cmagister/

Caveat's Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/join/BenjaminWachs

Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show.

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama b**** b**** b****. Year after year they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. 

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Tada! It's that Andy. Today our guest is Caveat Manchester. Welcome to the show. 

Hello, Andy. Pleasure to be here.

Yeah. So, this is actually going to be the season finale. So, you're episode 25. So, you're capping off the end of my first season.

Is Is there a big twist at the end?

Well, you still live. Don't worry.

I'm going to be recurring character. All right. Multi-season arc.

Yeah. Um, so yeah. So, where does it all begin? Like what what was your your first year and what got you to go to Burning Man?

Oh jeez. Um I I have to tell you just I'll I'll answer the question, but I am probably the least interesting thing about Burning Man. I mean, you know, there part of the reason why I got into the whole, you know, Burning Man philosopher thing is that I think the thing that we do is so so interesting. And while yes, I'm fascinated by the people who do it, I I I think we could get a lot more mileage out of talking about the thing itself than we could about about my connection to it. Just just

I think just briefly kind because I think a lot of people will be kind of you know want to know like you know who exactly you are you know and then we can

I I don't think anyone has asked that at all unless I've cut them off in traffic. But

who the hell are you?

Okay. Who's that a****** in the golf cart? I got to get that one. Um all right. Um so I was introduced to Burning Man the way that I think you know multiple generations of burners were introduced to Burning Man when I had an artist friend who started pestering me incessantly about this really stupid sounding party in the desert that I ought to go to. Uh that this would have been 2002 2003 something like that when a uh artist friend of mine named Sandra Carr started she had gone out on a uh I'm going to buy an RV and take it all around the country and just do that thing kind of trip. And uh she was uh driving along with her kids. She was in Nevada. She pulled into a Walmart parking lot in order to get some rest. And she noticed that the Walmart parking lot was full of other RVs. And she thought, "Well, this is interesting. I wonder what's going on." So, uh, she's a sociable sort. So, she walked out and asked some of them, "Hey, what are all of you guys here for?" And they said, "Oh, we're going to Burning Man." And she said, "Burning Man? What's that?" And they told her. And she said, "Can I come?" And those were the days when you absolutely could. And so they said, "Great." And she said, "Great." And so she went to man. And a couple of weeks later, she called me from Colorado where she was now living with someone who she had met in Black Rock City and said, "Oh my god, you have to do this." And I heard her tell me about it. And I said, "Yeah, I'm not really a camping person and going out to the desert to camp and look at statues. Is that what you're talking about?" "No, no, I'm you. You you you've got the wrong guy." Um but she kept pestering me and pestering me and then she started inviting me out to at least go to some regional events with her. and attend some some parties and you know I'll fly out to see my friend. So, sure. And so I I started going to uh some of the regional events out there and some of the the informal parties out in that neighborhood. And I had to admit I'm I'm not a party guy. I had never been into parties per se. Um I it just always seemed like you if you had a bunch of interesting people, you could come up with something more interesting to do. But all the same, I had to admit I enjoyed these events. they were on to something. They were they were funny and personal and intense and interesting in a way that I did not associate with with with conventional parties or or gatherings. And so I was intrigued and uh then so I kept doing that and then for completely unrelated reasons I moved to San Francisco near the end of 2006 and I stopped by uh Sandra's place on the way there and she was working on a uh art project that had gotten funding from the org. So I, you know, stayed a week or so and helped out and then went to San Francisco and a little bit later she called me from the road and said, "Okay, I'm on the road to to Burning Man with my project and a member of my crew just dropped out, which means I have his ticket and you actually did help with the project. So I want you to come and you can camp with us. We'll take care of of everything you just need to to to to bring a tent and get a ride there. And well, at that point, I was in San Francisco. I didn't have a job. I didn't know anyone except the girl I'd moved there to be with. And so, I really didn't have any excuse not to. So, I said, "Okay, sure. Why not?" And that was how I went to my first Black Rock City. Uh, and I had to say I it did I did not have the kind of it blew my mind transformative experience, my life is different now thing that so many people do. That was not what I had at that time. But I have to admit

it was it was good. It was interesting. And so since I was living in San Francisco and didn't know anybody, I thought, well, they take volunteers. And I admit it seems kind of weird to volunteer for what at the time was a a for-profit organization, an LLC, but I need to meet people, so why don't I go do that? And uh that's more or less how the whole thing started.

How long did you go for? Was it like the the full-on week, or were you just like, I'll just try this out for like dabble just for like like a long weekend or something?

No, no, full week. Um Um, I uh I got a ride off Craigslist to go down there with some people. This is the only This was the only time getting a ride on Craigslist actually worked for me. It never worked for me again. And there were there were three of us going down there and only two of us came back. It was Yeah, the the third member of our group um just never showed up to the to the appointed spot. And we looked around for her. We did all the things and finally we were like, "Okay, I guess you know guess we have to move on." And and fortunately later she she called called us and said, "Yeah, no, sorry. I got involved with things and, you know, I spaced on you and got a ride elsewhere, so it was okay." But yeah, no, three of us went down, two of us came back. It was for it was for the whole week.

Wow, that's incredible. No, it's funny cuz like remember for like many years, Bretty Man felt I mean, not for me personally, but uh just about everyone else around me like like the love boat, you know, there were so many like torid relationships where it's like, you know, we get there on Saturday and by Sunday night like they're like, you know, they just met like not even 24 hours before, but it's like they're planning their wedding on the Playa and then like within like 36 to 72 hours later just like I never want to see that person ever again, you know. Uh yeah, many many years later um I would go to uh Burning Man with a woman I was seeing. I think this was 2019. And we weren't camping together, but we we went on a you know a dayong play date and we we would estimate that we had the entirety of our relationship in that 24-hour fly date that we went through the whole thing. Um, right there. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if I had mentioned this on the show before, but uh Yeah. So, my my I first went 96 when I was still living in San Francisco and I remember like after coming back and it was just for like a weekend, kind of like a long weekend. It's like three days and you know, of course it's like everybody you get back from Byband and you're just like every third word out of your mouth is just Like it was B awesome Burning Band. It was great. Burning banding band. Burning band. And so for about the first like 45 minutes, my my then girlfriend now wife, you know, was like, "Oh, wow. That's interesting. Oh, tell me more. That's kind of cool." And then I was like, "Okay, you can stop talking about that now."

Yeah. No, we we really are. I we we can get insufferable. I I have long made it a point not to talk to strangers about Burning Man unless It comes up elsewhere. It I've I've I've had I've had these moments where I've been in a bar and the subject of Burning Man came up and I just kept my mouth shut until one of the people there who, you know, had never been was just like, I really wish there was somebody who could explain this thing to me. I went, okay, well, you know, as as chance would have it, I am in fact one of the the definitive explainers of Burning Man to people. So, all right. But to ask the magic question.

Yeah, but otherwise I tried to keep quiet about it.

No, you should at least gotten a drink out of it. You know, it's like, okay, if you buy me a drink, then I'll explain it to you. Yeah. So, in all these years, my wife has never once been to Burning Man. Like, uh her whole thing is like if it's going to be hot, there has to be water nearby. You can go swimming like an ocean or something. And she doesn't like crowds and she doesn't like hippies. So, was kind of like Jack Jack, you know. So for me it's like my experience on the playa I don't know who was he joking around about this with I think it was Jenny. It's like it's like I may have the singular distinction as being like the one person who's never had sex on the plot like willingly you know.

Yeah.

And I remember like god one it was one of those like early 2000 years it was uh the regional back when it was the regional information center the regional network center. That was one of my babies I started. And I was sitting with some this random guy. We're talking and I was talking about this stuff and I was like I was like, you know, like I I'm not looking for a partnership, not looking for relationships. It's like it was like my girlfriend or or wife at that point I think was like you know she's back at home and so like and he had this whole thing was like oh well my girlfriend knows you know that you know like when I when I come to Bretty man this is like is my like hall passes my time to like kind of like go and have fun. And I was like, "Oh, that's that's great. Good for you." Whatever. But I thought I was like, you know, I actually have a lot more fun hanging out and like meeting people and talking to people and like talking to women like and then when I get to that point in the conversation where I just go blah blah blah blah blah blah my wife blah blah blah and then they're just like wait what? I mean some people actually kind of turned off and you can see the turn like and then they like they run away. I'm like what? We're having such a great conversation. you know.

Yeah.

Like, but some other people are just like, "Oh, you mean you're not trying to get in my pants right now?" Like, "No, it's like we're just having a good time. It's just like I'm I want to talk to you for you." And they're just like, "Oh my god, that kind of just like then we have so much more fun together, you know?

It's a it's a revelation." And and let's let's let's be clear about this. Not going to Burning Man is a perfectly rational decision. I mean, you know, it's completely defensible. And for that matter, not having sex at Burning Man is a completely defensible and rational.

It might sound strange to some people.

Yeah. But it's dusty out there. I mean, it's it's actually in a lot of ways a really unerotic environment. I mean, you know, if you if you're into comfort in any way, if you're going to struggle with that.

Yeah. And then also like um as my listeners probably should know by now, like uh this the last year was the my first year back and I'd taken like what 13 years off, you know, and I came back and uh one of my revelations was was actually getting a good night's sleep like just once or twice, but like every night, going to bed at like maybe 11:30 or oo 12, you know, and then like waking up in the morning and like everyone's just like crawling into their tent, you know, and they're like and I'm like good morning sunshine like I was like I had like the best experience and people like you sure you don't want to go get wasted and I was like actually no I've had like such a great experience you know

there's a there's a real difference between night burners and morning burners. Absolutely.

Oh, yeah.

Very different experiences. I've always

I've I've always been more interested in the the human scale art experiences. And so, in many ways, the the daytime when all of the uh the theme camps are open and people are out there, you know, doing their their their art and their their rituals and their their, you know, their invitations is is generally my favorite time. I've had some amazing, if not transcendent, experiences at night. Absolutely. But the the thing that I go for, the thing that keeps me coming back is those those human encounters which, you know, often are so much more facilitated uh during during the daytime when everybody is is doing their theme camps and and focused on that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, like the nighttime was kind of fun for like like wandering around on the playa and the just like the the visual effects of, you know, like the

you know, like the below like the horizon. It's kind of like all these linky lights, but below is dark and above is dark, you know. And again, there are strange lights below and above, you know, and this is also like one of the few places I've been where it's like you you can be completely utterly sober, but you'll feel like you're tripping.

Yeah. No, that's a that's a significant magic trick. That's a that's a that's a profound aspect of the sort of psycho magic that is Burning Man. And again, I'm not, you know, I've I've had transcended experiences at night wandering from, you know, a big tent to big tent, from, you know, weird party to weird party. And I I I've had a long tradition of at least once a year, usually twice, going out to the trash fence at night and singing there. Um, and it's, you know, it's it's it can be utterly beautiful, sublime. Um, but the but the kind of things that got me interested in the first place, you know, when I was saying that, you know, I was going to the the regional events, you know, the Colorado regional, these other parties, um, and I was like, "Wow, these aren't like ordinary parties. These are interesting for me." That was sort of the theme camp. mentality. That was the sense of, you know, okay, we're going to we're going to do something together that is is weird and interesting for its own sake and and imaginative and we're going to hope people come and that we can give offer them this experience, you know, that that that sort of gifting of experiences was what really pulled me in and intrigued me and that that stayed with me this this whole time.

Yeah. So, when you went to Bernie man first time 2006 and you said you just moved to San Francisco, didn't really know anybody and so you volunteered. So, who did you vol What would you volunteer with? Who you what department?

Okay. Well, that's a bit of a story, too. So, um I uh they were putting on a volunteer fair kind of event at at their headquarters at the time that this was I think the Yeah. the Third Street headquarters back then,

China Basin, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And um and so I went out and I looked around, you know, I didn't really know anything about the the the org at the time. And so I was sort of looking around and then I uh I saw that they they you know, had a media team in Media Mecca and I went, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm a I'm a reporter. I'm a I'm a journalist. I have a long history with this. I can I can volunteer for that." And so I went over and uh met Andy Grace, Action Girl, and uh she said, "Okay, well uh you sound great for us. We'd love to have you, but we've just moved all of our volunteer applications online. So, what I want you to do actually is go back home and call up the website and, you know, go to the volunteer page and fill out the volunteer questionnaire and click in Media Mecca and mention that we you know we talked and that'll get you in that'll that'll be fine. I said okay sure. So I went back home and I called up the website and I went to the volunteer page and looked at the volunteer survey

and I was so disappointed. Oh my god. I just the just the floor dropped out from under me and I was so sad because it was a completely conventional volunteer survey application. It was the sort of thing you'd get at any nonprofit or you know event. It was it was not interesting at all. It didn't feel like Burning Man at all to me. And, you know, I'm here for for weird experiences and and and interesting art and, you know, radical self-exression and unbridled creativity. And this was none of that. It was all conventional questions. Uh, and so I I was so disappointed and depressed by it. And then then it occurred to me, okay, well, if maybe this is my maybe this is calling on me to to make it all of these things, you know, maybe if the form. Maybe if the form is boring, I have to make it interesting. And so I took a few days and I spent a long time putting together what I would like to think is still the weirdest, funniest volunteer application that they have ever gotten that uh you know, I I I tried to screw with every single question. So um for emergency contact, I uh I talked about uh how I was going to kick their ass in the event of an emergency because I because I'm a cynic and an alcoholic. So, you know, have at you. um for you know what your what your goals are, what you'd like to achieve. I wrote to finally crush the Amazing Spider-Man. And I wrote this long essay about how you know I've been trying for all these years to destroy him. He was my nemesis and I never seemed able to do it. It was almost like he had some kind of I don't know spider sense that warned him of danger. I couldn't understand it. But I finally had it. I finally had the right team. And then I talked about all the super villains I'd assembled who were going to crush him. And then you know it's really going to be great. I'm going to do it finally. My only regret is that I'm not able to share of this with my best friend, Peter Parker, who, you know, I've known for years, but we've just been so distant recently. But that's okay. After I destroy Spider-Man plenty of time to to to get back in touch with him. So, you know, I I made every question like this. And then I sent it in. And of course, I didn't hear back that day, and I didn't hear back the next day or the day after that or that week or that month. And by

Yeah. And by that point, I sort of figured, okay, well, I guess I was too weird for Burning Man. That's that's too bad. But

weird. for Birding Man. Wow.

That's what I thought, you know, cuz All right, but you know, probably better that we not know that we know that now, you know, instead of, you know, finding that out later. Um, and then a year and a half went by.

What?

A year and a half went by and then I got an email from Andy from Action Girl. Now, what what I had not known, I had no way of knowing is that the the media team had basically been dumped in her lap right before that volunteer um volunteer fair that I've gone to,

just in sort of inherited the team. Somebody else had quit, so it was on her plate now. And so, you know, there was sort of a a wide reshuffleling of personnel at the time. And so, a whole a whole lot of things had just fallen by the wayside as as they got organized. And volunteer recruitment was one of them. So, I uh so what had happened was that uh they had realized, okay, we have a shortage of media volunteers this year. What are we going to do? And the woman who had who ran volunteerism for them at the time, wonderful woman by the name of Tmaine, um said, "Okay, what we're going to do is we're going to go through all the applications we got in the last year and a half, and we're going to find a volunteer coordinator from that." And so they were going through all these applications, and Terma came upon my application, my weirdass, you know, funny as you can make it, surreal, absurdist application. And she laughed her ass off. She printed it out. She walked it over to Andy's desk, said, "Here's our guy." Andy laughed her ass off and then sent me an email saying, "Oh my god, how did you fall through the cracks? Clearly, we need a volunteer coordinator. Do you want the gig?" And I yeah, I I I was offered it entirely because I made I made them laugh. That was that was the entirety of my qualifications for this. I'm going to add other qualifications, but they didn't know that because I'd made the application super weird. Um, so I sent her an email back saying, "Gosh, Andy, it's really good to hear from you after all this time. I admit I've thought about Burning Man between, you know, then and now, but I have to be honest with you, I'm I'm with the Aspen Music Festival now and we're very happy together and they respond to me and they you know they they they they take my survey answers seriously. So, you know, thank you. But, you know, I'm I'm I'm very happy. It's good to hear from you, though. And then I signed it and then at the bottom I wrote in all caps, PS, oh, who am I kidding? It's you. It's you. It's always been you a thousand times. Yes. And so,

so what do you think happened? Like, did did it just kind of fall through the cracks? Like, I mean, did they like I said, was it just kind of like uh just kind of office chaos just you know like they

yeah I mean you know look look we we we know perfectly well that you know organized Burning Man is something of a contradiction in terms and they they they do their best but you know it's a it's a fairly haphazard thing and uh professionalism has always been you know third or fourth as far as that goes especially back then and I mean it you know it just yeah think I mean they the media team was blessed I would come to learn with a strong foundation of really experienced and dedicated team captains. And so they were basically able to let volunteerism fall through the cracks for a year or so before it became clear that oh shoot we have to actually pay attention to this because they had such a deep and dedicated bench of really talented qualified people. I mean yeah it was just you know organizational organizational screw-ups happen and when you you know when you throw a whole new team plus some other responsibilities on somebody new all of a sudden and you know

Yeah.

just

Yeah. Because I'm trying to think That was what 2006 2007ish.

200 2006 2007. Yeah.

Yeah. Cuz I think that Andy was like heavily involved with like the regional network before that, right? And so I think they they took her out of the regional network and put her in media mecca.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Put her on communications. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So So was that like 2007 2008 you kind of So was this like the the year round Sounds like I'm not sure if you say staff where you're like just a volunteer

volunteer staff. You're around volunteer staff. Yeah. It wasn't a p wasn't a paid position. Virtually

virtually none of the work I have done for Burning Man has been has been paid. There was a three-year period where I was uh part-time contract staff. I insisted on being part-time contract actually as opposed to uh as opposed to full-time staff. Uh where I was the uh senior writer and researcher for their education program. That was in uh that was between that was 2015 2016 and 2018. Um, but other than that, the entirety of my time and work with Burning Man has been volunteer. But yeah, I I became I became year- round staff, year- round volunteer staff. Uh, that was a that was a year- round position.

Oh, okay. And were you working with like nurse and yams and uh

Yeah. Yeah. No, those were some of my earlier episodes this year.

Yeah. Nurse Yams, Polaris, um, you know, great great group of people.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, So is now media mech is like comms or something. Is that what it is? Or is that different?

Media media mecha is under the comms department. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah, because I've been kind of interfacing with them a little bit because I remember like last fall before I I interviewed Andy and she was like, "Oh, you got to go to comms first." And then they get their permission and I was like, "Okay." And then I I did and I was like, "I got permission for Andy." And I was like, "Just so you know, I'm going to be interviewing a lot of people." You know, it's like uh do you want me to to talk to you guys every single time? And they were just kind of like h you're good. Go ahead.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then um Yeah. Then this this year on the plot, I think I mentioned this year we were talking before, but I'm doing this this whole uh shadow shorts thing where

Yeah.

Yeah. We would put like five minutes on the clock and I'm going to like challenge people. It's like ah what's made impact and you go, you know, and I'll see what what I get, you know. Yeah,

I don't know. More information will be about that will be coming up in the I think the the next episode after this, my dear.

That's that's part of the big season ending twist.

But wait, there's more.

Yes,

there's a Ginsu knife.

Is is now is now the time that I admit that I shot Larry Harvey. Is that

Oh, but that's for your deathbed. You just can't

too soon. Okay. Too soon. We'll cut that in post and I'll admit it later. Okay.

Yeah. Well, that's also the other thing about this is Like I don't I don't do any editing because I'm I'm extremely lazy. But I I sell it to my guests as uh you know it's like no this is like your authentic voice you know it's like I'm not going to you know kind of twist it and change it just like oh I'm going to make you say this and that you know like yeah. So wow. So so have you gone pretty much every year since then? So you went like 2006 2007 like I mean except for

I skipped I skipped I skipped 2007. Uh but um every year after that up until the pandemic. Um, I didn't go to the to the Renegade Burns. I did go again in 2002 and that was my last one. Actually, I

22. Yeah, sorry. 20 2022. Yeah, I did not go uh for the rain apocalypse and I didn't go last year in 2024.

But yeah, there was a there was a there was a an unbroken stretch of about 15 years. um when uh you know well unbroken except for the pandemic when yeah I went I went

yeah yeah I don't know I mean I know some people probably said that it's like a point of pride it's like I went straight every single year and I'm like I mean for me it's just like I went like like three or four years straight and then like took off a year then went and you know I mean life intrudes and then

No, absolutely. I mean there's there's there's more there's more to life than Burning Man. Absolutely. I think for me For me there it was it was several factors. One of which is being that of course you know living in San Francisco and volunteering for the org. It was always you know a the path of least resistance to go in in many ways. You know it I knew so many people going I you know it you know it's not that long a drive. My my logistics were all you know basically uh bas basically set up. I I knew so many people who could help with anything I needed. It was you know it was it was in so many ways the uh the the easier path. just you know go going to Burning Man was going was going downhill. There in fact uh you know there was there was one year 2018 2019 or something when uh I actually started telling friends of mine you know my I'm feeling very I have very complicated feelings about this whole thing right now. My my relationship with the project is uh you know sort of uh in a in a in a weird place. I'm I'm thinking of not going. And my friends you know said oh well we understand of course that makes a lot of sense. We will really miss you. But we understand what you're saying. On the other hand, have you considered going for three times as long? And yeah, that that's that's when I discovered that uh that under the right circumstances with the right people, a pressure campaign can work on me. And uh so, you know, suddenly I was there for, you know, the week before build and then build and then then then the full thing and and had an amazing time. Um no, you know, f it uh it was it was on the one hand very easy for me to go in that sense. And so, so of course I did. Also, there was there was there was a sense of purpose. I mean, you know, I spent 5 years doing the doing the media position. So, of course, that uh that pulled me in. And then, um, you know, it was interesting then after I after I left that position, uh, the first the year that I went, I I felt a sort of an an aimlessness that I think is very common for people who go who spend a lot of time working for the man and then leave their position and go any go without that there's there's there's a real sort of emptiness a hollowess to it a listlessness you know what am I a

midlife crisis like a burn

yeah well I mean

what do I do now

you spent you spent years being part of what makes this thing go and now you know you're you're there again but you don't have you know it's just like it's like you know retiring you know what what do you what do you do with your time and what I discovered was that um I had to then actively push myself out to be in situations where I was going to encounter the unfamiliar that lacking lacking the the pressure of okay, I have a thing to do that I'm here and this is such a weird environment that the weird is just going to come to me. I had to go out and find the weird. I had to start wandering around the city in ways that I normally wouldn't have had to just to, you know, see see whatever happened next cuz that's an environment where you you don't know what's going to happen when you cross the street. in there. That's one of the beautiful things about it. But I I realized for the first half of my time there that year, I was in a rut that I was basically going from friends camp to friends camp in a in a you know sort of a circle, you know, okay, let me go to BMI, okay, let me go to media mecca, okay, let me go to this camp, let me go to that camp, and I was just doing that cycle. And so I was seeing all my friends all the time, which was which was great, but it wasn't magical. It wasn't what I the the the weird extraordinary, you know, can this even really be happening kind of impossible experiences that I loved about this thing. But then when I pushed myself out into new environments where I went to places where I don't know anybody here. I you know I I have to figure out what's going to happen next and what I'm doing here. Then immediately the the magic came back and to I imagine that's probably kind of liberating, you know, because I mean I've talked to like a number of people like actually the episode that just dropped like yesterday with Adriana Roberts and and remember she was talking about like oh she'd been going to Bernie man straight for like 30 years or whatever and then she was like oh you know she took time off she's like I'd go back but then know it would feel weird to feel like a stranger and she's like and I and I totally get that. I felt the same way. It's just like it's like the loneliest of lows. It's like oh you were you were like part of it and and doing all this stuff and now you come back and like nobody knows who you are but I think it's like you're saying it's like that could also be like an opportunity that could be like a challenge you know just to kind of refresh and renew just

it absolutely is. In fact you know a couple of years later when I was in that period where I was officially working for Burning Man um I resisted very strongly the uh the requirement to to carry a radio on or with me uh where I went around because I I' I'd had to do that occasionally at Media Mecca and it just changes the experience that you have that people that you have with people because the first thing they notice about you is oh you've got a staff radio and so all of a sudden all the conversations that they want to have with you are you know premised on the fact that you're you're you know a Burning Man staff member with a radio.

Yeah.

It's also a weird status symbol to some people too. Oh you have a radio. Oh we have two radios here.

Yeah. No it's It it was exactly the kind of experiences that I didn't want to have with people. It was it was it was imprisoning. And so I would get into these I would get into these heated debates with Stuart Mangram who was my my supervisor. He Stuart wanted me to to wear a radio and I would say why what is what's the point of this for me? And he said well in case in case we need to reach was like I do education and philosophy. What kind of crisis is going to happen?

You don't know we need we need a philosopher right now. Who can someone explain Haidiger stats? I mean Come on. It

But you know, you can't just have one. You'd have to have a crack team, right? And then you would have to have like a specialized vehicle. It's kind of like like the Ghostbusters. You know, you have like a special siren back in Larry Stewart and I when you know when we were doing the philosophical center uh together, we had talked about having a philosophy art that would go around and uh blare philosophy lectures at at people, you know, just as we were were riding down the street. That would be our our noise pollution.

Oh my god, that'd be awesome. you I I deeply regret that that never happened. Yeah.

Yeah. But it also just kind of sparked I don't know like I just get these crazy ideas but the whole like the whole radio thing like

I remember years ago someone would make these like fake like like backstage passes and they were just like oh yeah you know it's like they don't give these out to people you know here has a special gift to give to like this is all access backstage passes like you can get it to the commissary you can get it you know the burn circle like you can go to Larry Harvey's RV you go anywhere you want people like really Like yeah, you know, but it's like what if you had like the backstage pass and like fake radio camp where people come up and we just like please take one of these fake radios.

That is inspired f******.

Yeah, I like that very much. Yeah.

No, it was it was very liberating actually to realize that yeah, I can just, you know, because I'd been to Burning Man exactly once prior to being on staff at that point. And so it was, you know, me discovering, oh yeah, you know, I can I can wander around the city. I can have these these whole different kinds of adventures. It was liberating and at the same time I and I I often think that the most the single most useful piece of writing that I've ever done about Burning Man outside of the book is uh was was a piece called It's Okay to Be Miserable at Burning Man. It that which you know recognizes the fact that we are going to have these incredibly lonely, sad, miserable experiences and that the best thing you can do with them there. I mean I am personally guaranteed two major exist potential crisis for every week I am out on Playa. That's that's that's a minimum. Um

yeah, I read that in the book and I was like, God, did I been doing this wrong all these years? I mean, there's been plenty of like misery from this or that, you know, but I was like, yeah, people like, oh, if you don't cry on the ply, you're not doing it right. I'm like, I don't think I've ever cried. Yeah.

Outside of very limited circumstances, I'm not big on telling people they've they've been doing it right or wrong. But I

Yeah, but for me, it's been very clear that, you know, if I go to Burning Man, I am going to have Pia meltdowns and be lonely and miserable sometimes and wonder what am I doing there? And that the best thing for it is not to try to deny it, not to go, you know, clench my teeth and my fists and go, "No, I'm having fun. I'm having the best time." But to to be completely honest about it because when I think you are honest about that and expressive and authentic about it, then it's much easier for it to flip. Then it's much easier for it to suddenly, you know, change into this weird weird, magical, emotionally abundant place. But but that's that sense that people have of, you know, coming out and feeling terribly lonely and wondering, wait, what am I doing here again? You know, I'm no longer with my friends. I don't, you know, I don't have a sense of purpose. That's real. That is very real. That that's a part of the existentialism of the whole thing.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I think nowadays, I don't know if it's an evolution or whatever, but you know, like a lot of I was going to say younger burners, but like I pretty much in my experience is like most everybody gets into Birdie Man like in their 20s. It's like when I I was like 25 26 like I think most do burners are like I mean half the people go there like in their their 20s you know but yeah I mean like with the temple and it's very cathartic you know people kind of like letting go of people they they love or saying goodbye and I don't know even just the whole like the the transformation transformation transformation you know I'm like yeah yeah I mean just don't force it you know it's like I think

it's a gift that might come and get hit you or not. You know,

that's really important. Actually, I Black Rock City and Burning Man culture generally are absolutely one of the biggest drivers and creators of transformative experiences that I think the world has ever known. And yet, I also think it is hugely counterproductive to tell people if you go, you're going to have a transformative experience. Have you transformed yet? And that that sets up all of the wrong incentives and

and if it doesn't happen, it's like, oh, there's something wrong, you know?

Right. You did I do it wrong? No. No, no, no. know it's and and part of the reason why it is so transformative is precisely because it is open to the full human experience. You know, radical self-expression is not just happy talk. It's not just happy thoughts. It's not just, you know, fun and joy. It's it's openness radical self-expression, immediiacy. It's open to the totality of the human experience. And that includes that includes all of the stuff that we would classify as negative. You know, it it it's why Thunderdome is so is so brilliant. You know, this is this is a this is the home for aggression. on on Playa where it is is channeled into an art experience. And that's that's fantastic. But that's that's just it is that Black Rock City is not a consumer ride where it's measured by how much fun people are having and you know how big their smiles are. It's a it's a city. It's a place. It has the the same amount of the human experience that New York City has, that you know Toronto has, that that Moscow has, that Buenosiris has. And you know the the stories of a place like that, they're They cover everything. And so when we go to Black Rock City, when we go to Burning Man cultural spaces, we are having an experience that is the totality of our of our existence. And that's that's what makes it so extraordinary and what makes the transformations that we have possible. And if we, you know, try to limit it down to, you know, okay, you're going to have a transformative experience or you're going to have the best time. We try to limit it like that, then we're we're arbitrarily lobomizing it. At which point, you know,

yeah.

I don't know. It just made me think of like, you know, an awesome art piece out in the play. I'd be like, a cardboard cut or a plywood cut out of like a a clown and beads like are are are like the hand up here and like are you having this much fun or like is your smile this big?

Yeah.

Like you're doing it right. If you're this big, measure your smile here. Like you've been transformed.

Yeah. No, I mean there's such the it's it's that everything they say about Bernie man with transformative experiences is true, but the way we talk about it is as as if that's a requirement as if you know that's it's not a, you know, result of Burning Man as opposed to the purpose of Burning Man. It's it it's so counterproductive.

Yeah. I think it's just just have fun. Don't be so serious.

The purpose of Burning Man, I've, you know, I'm so explicit about this, is to have an experience of Burning Man. There there is no other purpose. The rest of it is what you bring to it and what you get out of it. And that's that's exactly right. The minute we start to say, "Oh, well, Burning Man is a driver of innovation and and community building, and you know, we we start to lose the thread at that point. What we discovered through Burning Man is that if you give people the ability to do basically anything they want eventually they will most people will build community and make art. That's just sort of what happens. But it's not because we are telling them oh you have to make community and build art. It's it's not because it's an externally imposed extrinsic thing. It's something that over time they discover they want intrinsically and that's a completely different process. And you know so the the the fact that Bernie man is such a great driver of Community and art is not because we have an agenda of community and art. The reason why it drives innovation is not because we have an innovation agenda. It's because we let people discover what they want to do and we create an environment in which so much more is possible.

Yeah. Well, it's kind of Yeah. Like one of the things like the 10 principles like some people think of it as more of just it's like oh no this almost like dogmatic you know it's like these are the steps like this is you know this is what you must do. and like to reach like it's not quite like like Scientology like you go through these different stages and and you get to to clarity clear your mind or whatever you know but uh yeah yeah yeah it's like like setting the stage for you to

to find yourself like to find your own radical self like whatever that is you know it's like there's no you know

the the minute the 10 principles become kind of a a a checklist or a set of dogmatic rules they they lose their ability to do what they do. um the the the 10 principles are sort of the conditions under which this experience of burning man, this experience of burning happens. If you have these 10 elements, then you're likely to to get this kind of experience going. But what that means is that it's going to be different for everyone because we're all coming at it from from different places. You know, what's radically self-expressive to one person is, you know, not is not for another. You know, some people are are are much better at emotional vulnerability or creating art projects and so on. So the question isn't are you doing X, Y, and Z? It's are you pushing yourself into this realm? You know, it's not are you, you know, checking off box X saying, okay, we've been inclusive, but are you being are you pushing your own capacity for inclusion? You know, I mean, another thing I wrote is that radical radical inclusion ought to make us feel uncomfortable. If we are completely comfortable with how inclusive we're being, we're not actually being inclusive. We're hanging out with our friends.

There there should be some effort to bring in people who you are not entirely comfortable with and absolutely safety counts and community responsibility counts. In fact, civic responsibility and communal effort are both 10 principles. They balance against each other, but they're intention. But if we're not try, if we're not pushing our own capacity for inclusion, then we're not really being radically inclusive. And if we're not pushing our own capacity for self-expression, whatever that is, then we're not being radically self-expressive. And so, yeah, it's it's not a series of, you know, boxes or checklists, let alone, you know, here's here's here's how you do radical self-expression. Here here's the kind of costume you wear. That's all completely counterproductive. It's it's a question of are you really throwing yourself into this? And if you are, you're going to get to Burning Man. And if you're not, you're going to be going through the motions of Burning Man and they're completely different experience.

But also, I think it's kind of like the what pretty much most people, especially like lay people, people from the outside see is Bernie man like the the whole radical the self-expression like the the crazy diversity of expression, you know? It's like if if it was like, okay, radically express yourself amongst this list of like eight different things, you know? It's like this would be Disneyland or something, you know?

Yeah. No, it' be be utterly pointless. I I wouldn't want to go to that party.

Yeah. It's like you could choose whatever you want as long as it's on this list, you know?

Yeah. No, that's that's that's ridiculous. But I also find that's one of the big misunderstandings that people have about Burning Man is that they gen people people who have not been through this experience often genuinely have no idea what being radically self-expressive would actually be like. It's just not something that's occurred to them, let alone in a sort of practical terms. And you know, what would I do if I were going to be radically self-expressive? Same thing with with decommodification. They they genuinely have never thought about what it actually takes to try to be in a decommodified space or a decommodified culture even for a limited time. And so it just doesn't make sense to them. And so you're trying to have this conversation and explain this and they just they they they haven't seen it. So they have they don't understand it because it is fairly alien. into our, you know, default world culture. And so it's actually one of the the biggest handicaps of explaining what we do is that actually unless you're in this particular situation, these things don't tend to come up enough that you have a practical sense of what it could actually mean.

Did people ever come up to you be like, "How do I radically express myself?"

Rarely that bluntly. Um but uh but it has it has happened. Yeah. What it's usually coached more along the lines of what does this mean? by which they mean tell me what to do.

Tell me. Yeah,

there's there's sort of an implicit tell tell me tell me what to do here. I know I know this is supposed to be important, but I don't get it. So, so you know, you you you tell this to me.

Do you counter with like no, you tell me where it's like, oh, what does this what do you think? What does this look like to you?

I I try Yeah. I mean, I I try to go more gently into that.

But yeah, but but yeah, you know, fundamentally it's because it Yeah, it is it is, you know, what what is it for you? But also, I think if if time allows if time is circumstances allow. The best thing to do if you're in if you're on play is to say, "Hey, let's go for a walk. Let's let's wander around and see see what's happening here and and pay attention to what we're seeing." And that'll that'll that'll make it apparent because cuz so much of this I mean, linguistic analysis and abstract thought is not the basic unit of meaning in Burning Man culture. Action is the basic unit of meaning in Burning Man culture. It's not an orthodoxy, it's an orthopraxy. It's what you do that matters. And so, I think for for so many people, seeing it happen is so much more useful than having it logically explained to them. It's it's just it's just so much more helpful. This is this is actually I I like to say that Burning Man taught me what it means to give a gift. And that's a really that's a really real thing for me because um prior to going to Burning Man, giving gifts was always associated with uh require with, you know, a requirement for me. It's a holiday. Therefore, we give someone a gift. It's, you know, it's a social obligation. Therefore, we give someone a gift. I had never really, this is a little embarrassing to be honest, but I never really received a kind of gift, let alone given one that had made me go, "Oh my god, you know, this is, you know, this, this completely, this is so separate from any sense of obligation that it means something else." And then I went to Burning Man and suddenly I was in this giftgiving culture and my eyes just popped and I realized there was again like, you know, for the first time when I was going to the regional events and I went, I don't like parties, but I like this. What's going on? I want to know more. Suddenly I was like, oh, they're giving gifts in a way that I don't understand how to do. I would like to learn how to do this. And and and so I practiced and I tried and eventually I got if I I like to think I got decently good at it. But that was I I couldn't have been it couldn't have been explained to me. It had to be shown. I had to I had to see that. And I think that's true of so many different aspects of of the 10 principles and of Burning Man culture generally is that, you know, we we we we it's we learn by doing. action is the basic unit of meaning, not not the the thoughtful abstract explanation of it.

Yeah. Yeah. And also a lot of times when I think of like the gift and for me like how yeah I kind of learned about it or or what struck me was just it's just kind of like thinking outside of your own shell and it's just just you know it's like you're not alone in the universe you know it's like and it's like there are other people around you. It's like and you know what it feels good you know I mean it feels good to you to help somebody else you know to like to give with no expectation of a return. It's like I mean and it's and it's just it's like you said in the book it's it's a skill and it takes a while to learn it cuz I it's like you know you could just like oh I'm just getting a bunch of Jolly Ranchers and just throwing them at people you know it's like

yeah yeah you know are there it's it's not nothing

all of the 10 principles are actually skills in that sense they're things that if you practice them you get better at them and if you get better at them and you change and as

you change your capacity to do them increases too. And so,

but they're also they're not like inherent. Like, you can't just like show up as a burner. It's like, okay, here are these 10 principles like go and do them. It's like, okay, I mean, maybe leave no trace, but even then it's just it's like, oh, I didn't realize, you know, that cutting wood gets like sawdust places. I mean, there's all there's a million things like

leave no trace can actually be fishly complicated.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, you know, people people who do people who do resto well are, you know, that's they got they got they got skills. They've practiced this. They Yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize I was reading it in the book. Oh, and also just to tell the the listeners um one of your books I actually just finished it last night. Um uh was it the the she this the scene that that changes cities or

scene that became cities? Yeah.

Was it became cities? Yeah. Excellent. Excellent book. All of you should go out and and get it and read it. It's like it's it's amazing. Um so Okay. So So you started with Media Mecca. You said you worked at or volunteered there for 5 years. What did you do after that?

Ah,

like 2013 or something.

Yeah. Um, I was the volunteer coordinator of Media Mecca for 5 years from 2008 through 2013 and um then I So 2010 2011 um I got a a additional gig with Burning Man when I started to write for the Burning Man blog. Now it's the Burning Man journal. But um I started to do that and I I got a very unique opportunity there. Uh something that just doesn't really happen with organizations. Um what had happened was that while my job as volunteer coordinator for Media Mecca was much more about volunteer recruitment and logistics and so on, it wasn't a position where I was, you know, supposed to explain Burning Man to people. Nevertheless, recruiting volunteers who are going to talk with the media you end up talking about Burning Man a lot and in, you know, our internal forums and email lists and so on. And Andy Grace and Will Chase both really liked the way that I was talking about Burning Man. And so,

you should write that down.

Oh, yeah. So, Andy Andy sent me a note saying, "Hey, we're going to try to revi revitalize the Burning Man blog, and I'd like you to write for it. How do you feel about that?" And I sent her a response saying, "Yeah, I don't think that's a very good idea. Thank you for thinking of me, but I I but no. and she said, "Well, that really surprises me. I did not expect that. Uh, can we can we grab a coffee and talk about it?" And I said, "Oh, I'm always up for coffee with you. Andy's amazing." Um, and so, um, it, uh, actually, I let me go so far as to say every Andy I've met at Burning Man is amazing, but this is Andy Grace. Um, so we we sat down and she said, "I'm really surprised that, you know, you you you said you weren't interested. Can you tell me why?" And I said, "Well, I I know that you think you want me to to write for the Burning Man blog. But I've I've seen what is on the Burning Man blog and it's all fine as far as it goes, but it's all very cheerleading raw and this amazing and that's not what I'd want to do. I'd want to ask much more complicated open-ended questions about the culture, about the nature of this thing, about how it works. And that's just not going to be a thing that you're you're going to, you know, really be able to to do. So, you know, it's better that we we keep the good relationship we have than, you know, me banging my head against the wall and accusing you of, you know, of not accepting my, you know, living up to this. And she said, "Oh, no. I know you're going to want to write that. That's exactly why I'm I'm asking you is because we we want that. So now, will you do it?" And I said, "Okay, I know you think you think you want that.

Be careful what you wish for."

Yeah. But the the minute I the minute I say something that isn't on message in some way, it's going to it's going to get, you know, there's going to be a back and forth about editorial control and it's just it's going to get ugly and I'm sorry. It's just I just see this being a disaster. And Andy thought about it for a moment and then she said, "Okay, Okay, I'll tell you what. I'm just going to give you publishing credentials on our blog. I'm just going to give you credentials to post whatever you want, whenever you want. No editorial process. I'm just going to do that. Now, will you write for us? And I said, "Okay, well, I think this is going to be a disaster, but yes, if you feel that strongly about it, if you're just giving me those keys,

we're like, let's see how long this lasts for."

Yeah, let's let's do that. Um,

okay. Challenge accepted.

Okay. Exactly. So, all right, I'll do that. Um, and and I and I have to say there is almost no organization in the world that would do that, especially one with as much big of a media microscope on it as as Burning Man. Uh, this was this was actually an incredible gesture of faith both at me and in the idea that, you know, there there was there was enough here to talk about and that could possibly go well. It was fairly extraordinary. Um, so so I started writing and Lo and behold, it was an immediate hit. Um, you know, the the the approach that I was taking to writing about Burning Man, at least among the kinds of people who were going to pay attention to deep thinking about Burning Man, which is not all burners, let's be clear on that. But, you know, within that environment, it was a it was a huge hit and suddenly um suddenly my social life changed overnight. Um, but it it was it was actually kind of a problem. This is this is one of the weirder aspects of my my social life with Burning Man. because I was publishing things on the Burning Man journal and I was publishing things and back then it was still the blog. I was publishing things on the blog and they were different kinds of things. They were much more challenging questions. They were you know just saying hey you know I mean among other things I was accepting that there may be a dark side to all of this or there might be challenges we have to to look at you know and so immediately everybody I knew who was involved in Bernie man culture started accusing me of being a a consmate insider because they would never let me right at this stuff if I wasn't deeply connected to the organization. And so I was actually now getting all these angry missives about about ticket prices and about parking policy and why is the or doing this and why is the arc doing that. I was like I don't know. I'm not in any meetings. I just I just get to write what I want. Oh, sure you do. You just get to write what you want. Yeah, because that's how this works. And it was it was actually awful. I was I was you know people were demanding explanations for me for for org policies. You know, again, I wasn't in the room at all. Um, and finally I came across the the one magic phrase that made this go away that convinced people that I was not in fact one of the ultimate insiders. I said that I've I've never even met Larry Harvey. And when I said that, people went, "Oh, oh, okay. Yeah, you can't be an insider if you've never met Larry. All right, fine." And then they left me alone to write what I wanted to write. Um, and so On the one hand, I I had this, you know, very successful, you know, little uh you know, uh thing going on on Burning Man blog. And it also incentivized me to never meet Larry because I couldn't that would that would that would ruin this for me. I couldn't

How did How is that possible? I mean, like you were living in San Francisco, right? You were volunteering at Media Mecca like in the office. I mean, he must have been there, right?

Larry did not show up a lot for for the kinds of things that that I went to. I mean, you know,

Larry Larry could be fairly reclusive. Um,

it you remember back in those days there was actually a sign in headquarters, Larry Harvey does not exist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Larry Larry was not, you know, Larry was not out there, you know, yucking it up with with people. Um, and uh, so and but actually now I had an incentive not to meet him, which meant that occasionally I would be in a room with him by accident and I I had to not meet him. I I had to actively avoid him in order to be able to honestly say this to people. There was a there was there was actually a um a regional network afterparty that uh that I I went to and uh true story um Marian was there and she said, "Oh my god, you you've never met Larry. You have to meet Larry." And I'm just thinking, "Oh no, what do I do?" And Larry came over and I realized when I looked at him, "Oh, he is so stoned. He is not going to remember this. This doesn't count." And sure enough, he was so that he did not remember it.

Yeah. I think the most times I've ever met Mary Larry, either he or both of us were guest.

Yeah. So, so I, so my last couple years at at Media Mecca, I um I I was actively avoiding Larry at that point. Um and then after I left, um I was horrified to receive an email from him saying in effect, this this would have been 2013 actually, um as I was leaving Media Mecca saying that he had been reading my writing for some years and following it with great interest and that he was thinking of putting together a philosophical center for Burning Man and he would like to to meet with me to discuss that. Could I reach out to Kelly and uh set an appointment with him? And I just oh god um and that that's when I was confronted with the question of am I the sort of person who would am I the sort of a****** who would refuse to meet somebody just so that he can keep his nice little thing going and I decided that I am not I you know okay I have to all right I so I I set up a meeting with him and I went in with a great deal of trepidation honestly because for I don't you know I don't know how many of your listeners are going to you know know the backstory here but I even before I went to Burning Man or started volunteering with them I was friends with Chicken John and John Law and so they had been telling me horrible horrible things about Larry Uh I was I was going in kind of prepared to meet some cross between uh Dick Cheney and Satan. Um and so I I I went to his I went to his apartment with a great deal of trepidation and nervousness, not sure what was going to happen and went in and we really hit it off. Just just from jump we just so hit it off to the point where I wondered he was this was some sort of elaborate prank because We could not possibly be in that kind of sink. We we surely some surely was messing with me here.

It's like is this the real Larry Harvey?

Yeah, we we couldn't possibly

but yeah. But um

Well, what did that make you think about like what uh John Law and Chicken John like after that

like you know the things that they told you about all those years?

I think that what you had was three very strong personalities who did not get along as personalities who also happen to have some philosophical and conceptual differences. They especially in their later years they were not that far apart at all actually. I I I you know remained friends with all three of them. Um I I don't think that their differences were all that great substantially but that as personalities they they were more or less inevitably on a on a collision course. They just did things so very differently. And so I think you know in the in the heated and those conflicts were all before my time too. You know it was6 that things really you know exploded and the years of acrimony followed from and I came in you know 10 years later. Um so you know when when things they had not mellowed yet but they were in the you know they they they would start to soon.

Well those are probably two other entirely complete episodes.

Okay. get to them another another day. So, yeah. So, 2013, you go to Larry Harvest.

Larry Harvest, we hang out for eight hours and

just the two of you.

Yeah, just the two of us. No, we we really hit it off. It was And and to be clear, it's not all that uncommon for people to have a first meeting with Larry and then hours later leave going, "What the f*** just happened? What was that?" That was actually that that's not an uncommon origin story for Larry. But but mine was was was unusually long and we got unusually close and So then when he when he founded formerly founded the philosophical center um in 2015, he invited me along with Stuart to to sit on it with him as as the founding members. And so uh so I had a sort of a time off from official Burning Man for 2014 and uh where I was just you know just hanging around um but still writing for the journal, still writing for for Burning Man's website all the time. And then in 2015 I became a founding member of the philosophical center and did that and then that led to my being invited to uh be on staff as I mentioned before for a couple of years as the uh writer and researcher for their education program. And uh so those those were the things that I was doing um up until uh I left at the end of at the end of 2018 and the scene that became cities came out in 2019.

So for the listeners ers uh what exactly was the Birding Man or is the Birdie Man philosophical center or was and is

another loaded question.

So I I suspect I think it has it has changed significantly. I think it really there's a there's a with Lar there's a with Larry and an after Larry for that. Um Larry had designed the philosophical center to be a part of Bernie man's governance structure and to serve as he put it as Bernie man's conscience and collective memory. Uh the the philosophical center was where we were going to u try to have the deepest understanding of Bernie man culture and try to look ahead to see what issues were coming and organize ways to talk about it and to basically a think tank about Burning Man Burning Man's culture and history. Um and so we did the theme was always Larry's you know personal thief and so we took the theme on and for a number of years did largescale series about that based about issues that emerge from the theme. So for example in 2016 we the theme was Da Vinci's workshop and so we did a long series on art and money and the relationship between them using sort of comparing Renaissance Florence to now and seeing what you know what we can see about art and money then which was a conversation that our our community actually really needed to have you know I love that part with the patriarchy and ma matriarchy. Would you guys

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. That was what was one of that was one of the my big my big discoveries with that. Yes. The the matriarchy is matronage as opposed to

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That it's a totally totally different system and there's historical precedent for that. Absolutely. Then in 2017 it was the theme was radical ritual and so we did a series on the nature of ritual and burning man and you know what is what does it mean in this context? What can we achieve from that and then 2018 which was you know the year Larry died, the theme was I robot. And so we did a a series on AI that I think actually holds up remarkably well. Obviously the technology has changed completely, but I think the thinking in that series is was really good. Um and we we held the uh the the occasional conference and sometimes we would get questions from people in the regional network or elsewhere about issues and we would try to respond to them. In fact, the last piece of writing Larry did was something that I was working on him with about um the members of the reg members of a region community had questions about how to handle major major gifts that people were trying to to give them, but their companies were trying to give them and, you know, is it okay to put their logo on, you know, on their on our website when we acknowledged that we gave the gift and things like that. And so Larry was was writing a piece that I was working on with them about not telling people what to do, but sort of suggesting here are better ways to look at the issue. Here's some clarifying questions. Here's things that have worked before in our in our culture. Um, so It was it was very much intended to be that kind of that kind of think tank. Um after Larry died, it went through a a period of dormcancy and then uh Stuart became the director of the philosophical center and you know the Burning Burning Man's podcast, Burning Man live comes out of it now. Um so but uh but it I think it was a very different entity uh then than than it is now.

Yeah, they do a lot of publishing, right? I mean it's not just the podcast and some some books and stuff.

They've put out some books including one of mine. That would be Turn Your Life into Art: Lessons in Psycho Magic from San Francisco's Underground. They put out they put out uh I think three books. Um

Coyote's book, right?

And Coyote's book, my book, and a book on a book about going to different regional events.

Oh, what's it? Roxan Jesse or something. Yeah, she's another on my list. I got to I interviewed her. Yeah.

But um but so it Yeah, it it did that. I'm not I'm not sure what the state of of publishing there is now. ly I I I think there sort of I'm I'm not clear on whether they're going to be producing another book. Um but um but yeah, my my time with the philosophical center is best thought of as being during that Larry period being from basically u 2015 through uh through Lar a little after Larry's death. Um

well, how about now and into the future like uh what what uh how are you interfacing with uh the project, the community, and where do you you see yourself going or contributing from here?

Sort of an open question uh to to be honest. Um yeah, I the period after Larry's death was was a very difficult one for me, especially since I had just gotten the contract to write the scene that became cities. I had literally just gotten North Atlantic press had just said, "Yeah, we have a contract for you. We'd like to, you know, have you write this book and we'll publish it on Bernie man culture. philosophy. And meanwhile, Larry just died. Um, and it was it not that I ever would have given Larry creative control over my book. He was not going to be able to just, you know, go in and edit, but it never occurred to me that I'd be doing this project without him, without him looking over my shoulder, without us debating robustly and and having conversations. And so, I had to write the book about Bernie man culture and Larry's Larry's, you know, life's work. right after he had gone, which was excruciatingly difficult. Um, especially because, you know, you you've you've just finished the book. It's it's a funny book. It's a it's it's an upbeat book. It's it's, you know, I I had to work very hard to make it that way as opposed to making it a sad palace to Larry because, you know, the for all that I was in in deep grief and mourning for my my friend and colleague. Um, Bernie man culture is not a sad palace to Larry. Not at all. And the book needed to read like as close to an experience of Burning Man as I could get it. So I after after it was finished I uh I I left Burning Man. Um I you know resigned my my various things. Technically I was technically I never stepped down from the philosophical center but uh you I haven't been invited to a meeting in years. Um and uh and I needed to go grieve and and and have a breakdown and I did. And I still wrote occasionally for the the the Burning Man Journal. I think actually I did some a few pieces or some very good work over the last few years on that, but never at the never to the degree that I that I was before. Um I started writing Turn Your Life into art um the next year and I had not intended that to have anything to do with Burning Man, even though it emerged in some ways out of out of the Burning Man context. That book's much more about the San Francisco art underground that Burning Man itself emerged from rather than Burning Man. But then, much to my surprise, as my agent started to shop the the book around. Burning Man contacted me and said, "You know, we we'd like to do a book by you." And I said, "Well, I actually have this one that I'm just shopping around." And it turned out to be a perfect fit. So, um, so they my it's it's it's funny. My book about Burning Man was published by an independent publisher, and my book about San Francisco's underground art scene was published by Burning Man. There's there's a little irony there that I quite like, but um, so Burning Man and I are in in some ways, you know, attached to the hip still. um and probably will be for for the rest of my life. Um I, you know, occasionally get, you know, requests to do interviews or, you know, give presentations on Psycho Magic or Burning Man culture. I still occasionally write for Burning Man's website when the mood strikes me. Um but I have been much more focused on creating the kinds of experiences that I want that I in many ways learn to do from Burning Man in my life where I live. I've sort of, you know, uh in in many ways the the impulse of the regionals to do Burning Man where they live has become the the the impulse that I am following now which is that I can make my life like Burning Man and so I don't necessarily need to go to the desert uh in in the same way. I I think also to to be quite candid there has been a shift in the way Burning Man institutionally looks at philosophy and its own culture. Um and I think I think we are no long we're not in sync in in quite the same way on that. I think I think the the prerogative that I have always had to be off message is a lot harder for them to to stomach these days. And so um so I think you know we're we're sort of we're sort of drifting apart in that sense. Now I and and and I want to emphasize that you know again the deal that I had the uh was was was always extraordinary. It's, you know, it's not unreasonable for an institution to say, "We want to be able to sign off on something that gets published on our website." That's completely reasonable. But also, you know, it I I had that prerogative and I I cherished it. And it's it's the the being able to say whatever I am thinking in pursuit of a deeper understanding of Burning Man culture is the, you know, the price of admission for me. If I can't do that, then what am I doing? Um, so you know, it's so, you know, we're we're more distant now, to be honest. And I I don't know that it it will always be that way, but um but that that's where we're at at this at this moment.

No, I I I totally understand like that similar kind of trajectory where it's, you know, it's like I took 13 years off, you know, raised my son and then, you know, slowly being pulled back into the and uh and I was like, "Oh, should I get you like back into bed with the organization?" I was like, "Oh, I toss my hat back in the ring. Maybe I'll be like a regional contact with the to go back to doing what I was doing before. And

none of that seemed right. None of that really kind of worked or gelled. And it's, you know, it's like and I had all these ideas. I had all these thoughts. And and for me, what Birdie Man was always about was

it was always about this connection, a community, you know, and and I so I I I really wanted to be connected and part of the community again. And and what really kind of struck me was I was like I like I know so many people, but I really don't know so many people. So I was like, oh. And I always like how about a podcast like let me do what I like doing. It's like actually talking to people, you know, but even better that it's just like let them to talk.

Abs. No, absolutely.

And then it's like it's just my own thing. So then it's like, oh, you know, uh I don't have like editorial control like no one's telling me what to do. And also I'm not really it's not the Andy show, you know. So I don't know. I mean perhaps there's there's new avenues for radical self-expression for you in the future.

I'd like to think so. And you know, I'm still I'm still very interested in having deep conversations with people about Burning Man philosophy and culture and sort of stacking them stacking these ideas on top of each other to see what they can build.

You know, I think I think Burning Man has a unfortunate habit when it sort of does these kinds of conversations, when it tries to talk philosophy and culture of sort of basically creating an extended open mic where you know anybody can come in and give the do their 5 minutes of time and then the next person comes up and the next person comes up and that's, you know, that's expressive and that's inclusive and they say, "Okay, so that's what we do." And there's something to that, you know, it's not it's not it's not the worst thing in the world, but also that's not actually how philosophy and culture work. You you you don't just have everyone throwing something down and then walking away. You have to have them paying attention to each other's ideas and you have to have them in dialogue and discourse and and sort of building things and saying, "Okay, this goes with that. This makes sense. that doesn't we can keep this we can and you and you see what you can build at some point maybe you're wrong and the whole thing topples down and you have to start over again but it's it's a process of of building and in that sense I think of it as you know with with art projects it's like it's like welding you know um the the flaming lotus girls have this wonderful model where you know if anybody wants to learn how to build giant art they will teach them but the point is that you can't just you can't be a welder on one of their projects if you don't know how to weld they will teach you to weld but but inclusion in this sense doesn't mean oh I have you know, I have a I have a welding torch. I'm just going to, you know, use it indiscriminately. It means if you have the if you have the qualifications, if you know what you're doing, then yeah, there's there's a there's a place for you to do it with us. And I think philosophy and and you know, cultural analysis is the same thing. We, you know, we we need people to if if you're going to have a real discussion about this, if you're going to move it in a good direction, you need to know what people have already said. You need to know what conversations came before. You don't have to agree with anything, but you have to be familiar with with what with what happened, with what is happening with the the ideas with with where they came from. And so in that sense, I think, you know, anybody should be able to participate, but they have to be willing to to to do the work. It's the intellectual equivalent of learning to weld. And I'm I'm very interested in in in in help in helping with that. Not so that I much in the same way that you were saying with your podcast, not so that I get to talk more, but so that I get to listen more.

Yeah. Yeah. But also, I was just like way as you're talking about that just thinking about the whole story of like the 10 principles and how the 10 principles came about like it wasn't just Larry went off into a cave and and and like you know inscribed these in stone tablets and came down and he's like I have these 15 10 principles,

right?

Yeah. I mean but like it kind of bubbled up from below and then like as time went by it got kind of codified, right?

Yeah. It was that the 10 principles were not Larry being super smart. They were Larry saying, "Okay, when this culture is doing what it what we love about it, what's going on, what's what's happening? It was it was observing what was actually going on and finding a good way to to describe it. And and and this is the remarkable thing about this. So, you know, the the regional network went to Burningman or said, "We need a way to describe what we're doing. People don't know how to talk about it. It's a problem when we're talking to our neighbors and we need to interface with can you can you help us explain what this is?" And the result was the 10 principles. And that's extraordinary because you you ask you know, the the organizers, the leaders of a major new art movement, you know, can you explain what you're doing? And they come back with about 600 words, a little more than 600 words. They didn't give a big giant complicated presentation. They didn't write a book. They they didn't, you know, Larry didn't, you know, say, "Okay, here's, you know, a series of lectures that you have to you have to watch." It was 600 words. He said as little as he possibly could while still being helpful. That's extraordinary. That's that's that's that's brilliant. And it's also what make so much of this possible is that he didn't overexlain it. He didn't try to, you know, try to do every eye and cross every tea. He he said something helpful and then got out of the way.

But it's kind of funny cuz like nowadays all these years later, like there's tons of people who just think it's just like, oh yeah, like in 1986, Larry like, you know, wrote down these 10 things and then all these years later, it's like we all put on these white robes and we and we all sing, you know, leave no trace, you know.

It's it's funny. Uh Larry Stewart and I would would have these arguments where where Larry would say that all 10 principles were clear. Even if they weren't even if they weren't evoked, even if we didn't have the vocabulary for them, they were all there on Baker Beach. And Stuart and I would basically call b******* that, you know, no, no, no. Um, and you know, Larry Larry never claimed to be the guy who, you know, he he was all very clear that he got them through observing what the culture was doing, but he claims that it was all there at the beginning. No, no, no, no. But it but but it he did discover that something was working and he gave that room to to to breathe and to to live and then eventually was able to describe it in a way that is really helpful to us now. But that's but that that's just it. It's it's much more about being helpful. The intellectual work of Burning Man philosophy is not to be more right than other people. It's not to win an argument. It's to be helpful. You know, it's to be in that practical way of I'm someone is stuck trying to figure out Burning Man and what to do. Can you can you offer them something that is helpful? And if you can, that's a good example of Burning Man philosophy. And if it's not helpful, even if it's completely right, if it's not helpful, not so much. Not not

I remember like back like in the '9s, the phrase that I remember like kept being banned about was like, you know, it's like what is Bernie band? It's like it's an experiment in living,

you know, and then there were people would kind of throw out like, oh, no spectators or or leave no trace this and that and then like Yeah. And then as years went by and then it's like, you know, I guess it got kind of codified, you know. There's there's this, you know, I'm I'm not entirely against codification up to a point. I actually think that, you know, there was I mean, part of the reason why I wrote The Scene That Became Cities was that there hadn't been a need before this. I mean, years before I wrote the book, Larry and I had been talking and we we agreed that, you know, there wasn't a need for anything like that yet. But as it got bigger and bigger and more and more people came in who didn't have a personal connection to this culture, a culture which was always best explained by example, and by people seeing it being done and doing it themselves. Suddenly you had a whole bunch of people who were trying to you know be part of this who had no such connections and they were going to be talking about Burning Man anyway. That's the thing you know it's not like okay if we don't say anything nothing's going to be said there was now a need for this to be explained in a way that they would be able to access that would hopefully get them to that next step of I'm doing something I'm you know with people.

Um and so the the idea behind you know the scene that became cities was to create that bridge to make this more accessible. But again, the point was not to be able to tell people, okay, here's what you do. Here's steps A, B, and C. Here's the blueprint. It's to explain why there isn't a blueprint, but how you can still do it.

Yeah.

Modification is necessary to some extent as you grow, but you have to be very careful not to kill what you love. And that's

Oh, exactly. I mean, the the whole reason why the 10 principles came about was because of the regional network and and the community growing out. And something that I've just kind of recently been kind of made like more and more aware of is just like just how far and wide the regionals have have grown and and just how many like their their burners there's many many many many many burners who who've never been to Black Rock City it's like their entire experience is is entirely in the regionals and I remember like for many years I was just like well if you don't go to the Black Rock desert you know like you know experience Black Rock City you know it's like are you are you really getting the real exp experience. But like now I'm like, "Oh, yeah." You mean there's different flavors, you know, but it's it's the same candy.

No, back back when back when you started, there was no such thing as being a burner without going to Black Rock City.

Oh, yeah.

Back when back when I started, it was sort of a sus suspect category of, well, people will call themselves burners, but they haven't been to Black Rock City. And then 10 years later, there was sort of a sense of, well, maybe you can be a burner if you don't go to Black Rock City. Now, it's not even a question. So you you haven't been to Back City, whatever. You're a burner. That's what are we talking about here? It's it's an amazing evolution. I love it.

Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, the show is kind of going a little bit past the normal time, but this being Cavat Magister and this the season finale, I guess, you know, go a little later. Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful.

Oh, my pleasure. This is this has been a great conversation. Any any last minute twists that that we can add for next season? Um

Oh, there's someone coming up behind them with a knife right now. Don't Oh,

then what will happen with winning on Mars?

Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, Elon's got that covered. Don't worry.

Well, thank you very much. This has been a pleasure and a joy.

Very much. Thank you so much.

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