EP 36 Harley Dubois

Episode 36 with Harley Dubois is out now! In 1988 She was enrolled at the Berkeley Psychic Institute when she found a great apartment in SF at 1907 Golden Gate. Over the next few years she unwittingly held afterparties for Cacophany Society events. In 1990 when the SF park police shooed away Larry Harvey and friends from Baker beach a meeting was convened in her living room to decide what to do with this “Burning Man”. She didn’t take the bait originally in 1990 but after hearing from the “Zone Trip #4” returnees (like her neighbor Miss P Segal) she first hit the Black Rock Desert in 1991. One can argue that Harley and Miss P started the first themecamp. Music was not central to BRC in the beginning, only in 1993-94 did Larry invite Turbo Ted (he ran raves in SF at the time). In 1995 Harley started the Themecamp Placement department. She was instrumental in organizing and professionalizing the Burning Man Project. Currently she serves as the Chief Cultural Officer. Over the years she has come to define her meaning of transformational experience as 4 parts:

1. Meaningful work
2. Being pushed out of your comfort zone
3. Feeling safe/no judgement
4. Presence of ritual/ceremony

Please give this episode a listen, you will learn not just some early history but the inspiring story of one of the founders of BRC.

harley@burningman.org

Please visit https://shadowoftheman.buzzsprout.com/ for all of the details and links.

Email shadowofthemanpodcast@gmail.com if you want to be a guest or if you have any concerns about the show.

Please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, it REALLY helps the show to even appear in search results.

Transcript

Before we start, I would like to ask your help to do two things. First, tell a friend or two who you think might like the show. And second, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The more reviews the show gets, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Thank you, and now on to the show. 

They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact. of burning up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. Is it baby new year? No, it's that Andy. Today our honored guest is Harley Dubois. Welcome and happy new here.

Oh, well, thank you.

Yeah, this comes out January 1st.

Okay.

But we were recording this like a little before Thanksgiving, November. But I was just making Thanksgiving plans before I came to this  meeting.

Ah yeah, we're going to have a small Thanksgiving this year and only like nine or 10. Last year I think we had like 25 or something.

That's a lot.

Yeah. No, I love to cook. That's like my big That's like my my Super Bowl, you know? I spend like weeks, you know, I'm ordering like like chestnuts from Amazon and I get like dried chanterels and, you know, like stuffing and stuff.

I want to come to your house for Thanksgiving.

So, yeah. So, we were talking a little bit before and uh this is actually our second goound. This is the the the super rare, in fact, never happened before, like a redo of the interview because the last we had some technical issues.

Yes,

this is going to be much better. Um, so You lived in was it 1907 Golden Gate the the infamous house in San Francisco where so many things happened and uh it said P Seagull.

Yes.

Seagull is the person who got you to go to Black Rockck City. So what the what year was that? Was it 91? I think you said

91 was my first year but I helped Miss P. She um did catering on the side. to make money. And so I helped her make um uh food for the Black Rock Desert for the zone trip in 1990. Um and we made this big huge sphinx, literally a sphinx. It was cast in a fiberglass. Fiberglass. Yeah, I guess so. Um and and we made it out of hummus. Um and the only thing that happened for Burning Man in terms of anything that was organized was was the cacophony um cocktail party which happened right before the man burnt and um she was catering the food for it and so she made this big huge hummus sphinx and um I helped make that and cut up the pita bread and all these things that would keep in aid environment olives um lemon etc. Uh and I didn't go

my way but you made this was all made like beforehand like in San Francisco and transported there.

Yeah. All made in 1907 Golden Gate Avenue. That's where it all happened back in those days.

It didn't like fall apart like on the trip up there or melt.

No. No. It We made it the night before.

Uhhuh.

And remember it was only 3 days back then. You basically showed up on Friday or Saturday. Saturday morning

at like, you know, 4:00 a.m. or whatever. Um, and you burnt the man uh on Saturday night.

Saturday or Sunday night?

It was Saturday. Well, I I I don't I I think it was Saturday back then, but um if it wasn't on the holiday, if it was on the holiday, then was Sunday. I can't remember. It's so long ago, right?

Because when I first went in 96, it was I remember it burned on Sunday night.

There you go.

Yeah, cuz then I think then then later on they moved it to Saturday and then the temple was Sunday.

That's right. You're right. You're right. It was on Labor Day weekend and it was on Sunday night. That's correct. Um but it only had to last a day and it was no, you know, no cool So it made it. The the hummus sphinx made it. And I would argue we had the first theme camp. Um we were uh we wore uh uh sort of um uh oh god herm girl outfits. Miss P, Miss Dawn, and myself. And I was Miss Harley. Um and uh we wore these little outfits and we had a carpet we threw in the ground and we made pillows to match it. So we could lie luxuriate, you know, on the ground with these pillows, which was really the only thing anybody had. Nobody even had any shade in those days. And then on Sunday night, uh we would pull out the martini shakers and um and you know, have the cocktail party and people were wore formal wear for that. Uh I have a picture of Miss Don, Miss P, and myself. I'm in like a black booier and Miss P has her black feather boa before boas were outlawed. Right. This is the good old days. This is 1991 was my first year.

Yeah.

Uh and missed on was wearing some gorgeous outfit. I can't recall. And we're at the man and there's nobody behind us. There's nobody there. My first year

91 was how many people?

91. Um I I think there were about 200 250 people. Um people argue with that. Nobody was counting.

Uh the first here uh we made the hummus sphinx was I did not go was 50 people so um a lot's changed since then

I mean even if everyone was spread out in a circle perfectly around I mean that would be just people would be spaced apart but

yeah

you know

it's it's kind of funny because you know as time goes by um these stories come up and so my first year was 1991 let's call it to 150 people and it was kind of like a fingernail shape like all of us kind of did a semiircle around the man that was out in front of us and no one sort of went beyond that but everybody camped back from that but it was only 250 people. Um and I had a little teeny backpacking pup tent uh that slept one and I in 1991 I put down my tent and I went out and did my things and I came home that night to go to sleep and there was a man that real put his tent really close to mine and he snored really really loud and the next year he put his tent next to mine again and I picked up my tent and I moved it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's funny cuz you said that like there's hardly any shade. Um I imagine there's probably wasn't too many or if any like RVs,

right? I mean I've heard even like generators or like electricity was probably slim to none or anything.

Yes.

So, how did the DJs all have their like their strobe lights and there were no DJs, right? I mean, there was

there was no DJs. There was none of that at all. And I did drive up with Miss P and Miss Dawn and Danger Ranger and this guy Andy Pector's RV. And that was the only generator I believe that was out there. And he had this big old uh RV. And I remember coming across, you know, the highway 30, was it 34 and seeing the Black Rockck Desert for the first time as sun was the sun was rising and being blown away by just how desolate it was. It took me many years to appreciate the desert and now I really love the desert, but I grew up in the east coast with lush greenery. So, this is a very foreign environment for me. It was kind of like going to Mars.

What was your feeling when you saw this the expansive desert coming. Was it kind of like holy crap? Like where are these people taking me?

Well, no, cuz I was fully invested in all the people already, right? Like Andy Pctor was was the foreigner to me and he was the person driving the RV, but Miss P and I and Miss Don Miss Don was my was my roommate and Miss P was my mentor and the person who had 1907 Golden Gate Avenue. Um I think was probably in her name. I had an apartment in the floor below. But there there was a secret spy a secret secret and illegal spiral staircase that ran between my floor and her floor cuz this building had not been cared after for many years. It was a beautiful Edwardian um flat on the top that was huge and so many many people lived. How many? Seven, eight people lived up there. Then there was the roof where my boyfriend John Casten lived with I think three other people. Um Some of the art babies lived up there. The art babies were Kevin Evans, um, Sebastian, and oh, and and Carrie, I believe the people who wrote one of the three people who wrote the book, the cacophony book, um, they were the art because they were an art school and they lived on the on the top floor and my recollections may be wrong, but um, but you know, there was about 10 people who lived and were fully committed to each other. We were We were part of the cacophony society. The cacophony society was fully uh entrenched at this point and um Michael Michael and Luis Dermillowitz who were at that point the people who were kind of running it did not live with us but they had keys to the house and so we I might go to bed at 10 and wake up at two and find a full-on event happening in in my living room. Um so it was quite the scene. So we were fully committed. So, when I went out to the desert, I didn't feel like it was crazy. I just felt like it was another adventure. Um,

plus you probably seen like all these people like going and then coming back like covered in dust and like these big smiles on their faces and you got to go. So, like how bad can it be?

Exactly. Exactly. In fact, my boyfriend John Castton, it doesn't handle the heat well. And he was like, "Oh, sweetie, don't go. You know, it's it's going to be hot and dusty." I'm like, "Okay, I won't go." Next year, I'm like, "f*** that s***. I'm going like I missed out on something that happened out there. Now, of course, um the burn at the at Baker Beach was already a part of the cahony newsletter. Of course, this is before the internet. Um and there was a newsletter that was sent out every month and Michael Michael and Luis Jerawitz would make it together.

The rough draft.

The rough draft. Yeah. And so, um there was a corner of the 8 and 1 half by 11 piece of paper that said the things like cacophony and the burning man event uh on Baker Beach was listed there. And I was like, you know, I'm doing really cool stuff with this organization. I'm uh climbing the Bay Bridge. Uh I am going through sewer walks, which is basically drain water walks um in waiters and coming out in a in a ball gown for a for sitown dinner and in a in a park and I don't even know what part of the city I'm in. Um like these things were much more interesting to me watching edifice of a man burn on a beach. I'm like not so much but I always knew that the party was going to end up at our house. Um and it did. So I met everybody and I caught the vibe. Um missed the first year and got to the second year 1991 on the desert.

Yeah. So well one thing note because I know they keep talking about like climbing pretty pages. And I remember seeing one picture in the book where they were actually going up like the the cables. Is like is that how they climbed the bridge? Like actually going up the suspension cables or like climbing the tower?

We climbed the tower when I did it. Um

yeah, there's no way in hell I would climb a cable.

Well, actually, uh through Illuminate the Arts, which is a wonderful artistic um uh nonprofit in San Francisco. Leo Vil Real partnered with Ben Davis and created um the Baylights.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

And and those opportunities, people did climb the cables. They

Well, that was legally, I'm sure, with the harnesses and everything.

Absolutely. Absolutely. No, but to do it illegally, you had to you had to sneak in front of the fire department, which is right out there on the water. And I was actually applying to be a firefighter at that time.

Oh.

Yeah. And I became a firefighter. fighter and I was like, "This is so foolish of me." I I'm sneaking out in black running with I was the only woman, nine other men. We're all running out in front of the window of pier of of station 35 um and scooting over to the tower and then climbing. We I think John had a key. This is led by John Law. Um and so we got inside the tower just to get off the ground. And then once we were off the ground, we climbed um up these really skinny ladders. They're not like your standard ladder size. They were like I think maybe 10 in and they were metal and they were firm and they were sturdy, but they went up and up and up and up and up and up. And at one point we had to swing our bodies out to the outside like over the water,

come back in um to the second lane because we had you have traffic that goes out on the lower level and comes in on the upper level.

We had to swing ourselves out. Um come back in to get to uh the upper level so we can get up to the tower. And we got all the way up and we were so excited. It was so cool. And I was like, "John, there's a there's a there's a video camera right there." And he goes, "Yeah, Harley, it's a fisheye lens. They can't see us." I was like, "Right, they're looking for big things out in the water. They're not looking for small things right up here underneath it." So then I started to climb down and all of a sudden my nerves hit and I

yeah

terrified and I said John I can't do it I can't do it and he's like Cararly you can totally do this I said I said I I must have um you know a fear of heights he goes no you don't have a fear of heights you have an unfamiliarity with heights he said do right hand and your left foot and then your left hand and your right foot and just go down and I did and we made it all the way down and we were so cool we They're so cool.

Until right in front of us, bam, bam, bam, bam, these space, what are they called? The um base jumpers with parachutes landed right in front of us.

What?

Yeah, base jumpers.

Was this planned or just a certain

No, they were must have been climbing up the other side while we were climbing up this side. They don't cross all the way over. So, they must have gotten up there just after we left and then they jumped and they landed right in front of us and I was like, "Never be arrogant, Harley. You were outcooled in like two minutes from your climb of the Bay Bridge by these uh base jumpers who just outcooled you. They looked at us. They packed up their pack their um parachutes and ran away."

Wow. Wow. That's incredible. The timing of that. Yeah. No, but that takes nothing away from like I'm sure the endorphin rush like after you like your first foot sets foot on the ground where you're just like

I did it. No, I it's it's just a humility story. It's just a hum like never never

Well, no, that's perfect. That's that's awesome. Wow. So, yeah. So, that was 91 and Yeah. So, another thing, so about the the Cacophony Society and the the rough draft, you know, you know, so that's like back in the pre-in days, that's how people would kind of know what to do, right? And that's kind of how they would attract people and and new members. like cuz the this this this suicide society, right, was that I mean that was more just a kind of a small close-knit group of people like they didn't really they weren't like so welcoming to other people and then that sort of passed on and then the cacophony society came about and they were like well we we want to be more inclusive of people right and so then they had like the newsletter and then I guess you could

be on like a mailing list or they also put in like coffee shops and and stuff like that.

Exactly. All of that and they were very welcoming. Yeah. Yeah. So, so Larry first went to the beach with like uh it Jerry James and uh couple of people. I'm forgetting names now, but uh so it's like 86, right? So I think he did that for like a couple of years before

he did it

like found out about it, right?

Well, no, he solicited cacophony. He wanted more people. Larry

the first year.

No, not in the first year. The second year. The second year he wanted more people. Um so he did the second year and then he wanted more people and then he came to um to John and Michael Michael who were pretty much running you know it's hard to say who's running but you know but whatever

cacophony they were heavily engaged and

involved in leadership like

yes um and and my and Larry sought them out and I it was actually in my meeting my my living room Miss P's living room that's Miss PC um is my mentor and was the person who really had 1907 Golden Gate Avenue which was the epicenter for cacophony and Larry garnered a meeting with Miss P uh John Law and Michael Michael at like 11 p.m. in my in the living room right

yeah I was coming through and going to bed and I was like oh this looks like a heavy meeting and I went upstairs and went to bed and he was asking if could please publish his event in the rough draft because he knew that that was the underground hip art scene in San Francisco. And of course they said yes and they did. And

what year was that? Was that like

that was 19 um I think that was 19 um 90 I'm sorry 19 uh 80.

Oh okay.

And then um when they did the burn in 19 1990 1989. They did they went to do the burn on Baker Beach with it. It sounds like cacophony um listed um and they went to to the the beach to do it.

The cops stopped them because there were now too many people

and they said this this is illegal. You have you know over I I think the cut off was like 200 people or something. So it was somewhere between 200 and 300 people. So they refused to let it burn. So Uh Larry and and and all put it in a parking lot of some friend who had a parking lot in San Francisco back when these things were like free space like the city had not blown up into the city it is today. You would never find that now.

Free space.

And so they left the the man in this parking lot and then um they came back to 1907 Golden Gate Avenue to my home and Miss P's and Kevin and Miss P and Miss Dawn had just gone to a wind uh contest on the Black Rock Desert where people would make art that would blow in the wind and whoever's art piece crossed the finish line first was the winner.

It only happened once. It was done by Planet X. If anybody around that area, Planet X still exists. It's the only time the the the founder of Planet X ever did wind festival. Um, and so Miss P, Miss Don, and and Kevin made a four posted bed with um, uh, fabric hanging off the four posters which served as sales. And they didn't win, but they were introduced to the Black Rock Desert. And they came back and said, "We have to take it to Black Rockck Desert. That's where Burning Man has to happen. That's the perfect place for it. There's no place else." And um, Larry listened and we all listened and they went down to the parking lot to get the man and it was chopped to smitherines, chopped it up. So they rebuilt the man, took it out to the desert, and that was 1990.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just interesting to think about like, you know, Larry wanted more people to come to Baker Beach, and he did, and then that got kicked out of Baker Beach. Like, I just keep wondering like what happened like if he what would have happened if he had never gone to Michael John Law and if we just kind of it was just sort of like an organic like oh Baker Beach Bonfire thing like would it have ever have grown as large? You know would it have just been kind of like well I did it for 5 years and I got tired of it and there never was a

Yeah. I mean I think it it very likely could have never turned into anything. Um I'm sure Larry would have found something else interesting to do with himself because um the burning of the man, the symbolism of the man the burning of the man and and the way it brought people together. All the things that Larry craved in his his life.

Mhm.

That's what he really wanted. I'm sure he would have manifested that in some other way. But yeah, it could have very very easily never happened.

Yeah. But it it's just interesting like just the uh the chain of events, you know. Uh oh, yeah. Dan Miller, right? So Dan Miller was one of the roommates of Larry and like so I interviewed him his February his episode. Um, and so he said that was like was it like 1976 or something? There was some like racu like camp out in like Paluma or something that they both happened to be at, but they didn't know each other at the time and they he was saying was like, "Oh yeah, that was like the first time that Larry kind of like looked around was like people are camping and it's a bunch of fires like and they're all kind of like this is an interesting thing." And then like years later 1986 and was just like oh things going on in his life he's like oh I'll I'll make this man and bra dragging it out to the beach. I mean, it's a longer story than that, you know, and then it's like he gets put in the rough draft and then all these people show up and then and then then there's also the Kevin Evans, you know, at at all and everyone else like he went out to the Black Rock Desert like in 1989 he came back and we're like it's like, you know, we have this great idea for a zone trip where we can go out to the Black Rock Desert, we can bring our art and we can burn it and like so it seems like it's this kind of

series of things kind of like come together, you know, and then There's also was like desert site works and stuff that was like kind of similar things like happening out the desert at the same time and like so what what everybody knows as Burning Man nowadays it's like you look on Instagram or you know people like like I'm putting that on my bucket list you know you know it's like it kind of came around like like organically like over time right

yes and and through the time period of where we were culturally I've always really noticed how um Burning Man definitely bounces off of our presidential administrations, definitely bounces off of our economic state. Um, and um, the growth of a city or the growth of a human, uh, it all feeds into itself. It all feeds in together to make this thing happen.

I mean, I think on and some degree people like to think at least it's like, oh, Bernie, man, this is a thing that's separate and it's like it's not connected to current politics or whatever. I mean, but definitely economically, you know,

actually even even the politics for sure. Like I've found that um the way Burning Man reacts to whoever our presidents is, it is an administration off. Like when Obama was in office, he was really going after um volunteers not being treated properly and people being called a volunteer when they should be being getting paid

and I was really nervous that you know the administration might shine a light on us because we were all I mean when inverting men would not have happened if it wasn't for volunteers and volunteers is the wrong word of course because we're really just talking with people that are passionate to do something like I volunteered for you know seven to 10 years before I ever got paid and and so did everybody else I mean Larry was volunteering we were all volunteering so it came out of that so is a volunteer the right word but Regardless, by the time Obama was in office, that was a thing

and we were just becoming a nonprofit at that point and by the time we turned the nonprofit page, volunteers would be okay. But, you know, we were swimming under that light and um the kind of uh light um the kind of uh u spotlight we'd be given in in Washington DC was always subject to the interests of the president. So um you know whether you'd have to like do a research paper on it, but it's it's it's totally entwined. It's totally entwined. It's just so we're usually like four years behind whatever the emphasis is at the moment.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny because like nowadays people think, you know, I couldn't apply. It's like everything is like so immediate and right up to the moment, you know?

No, not when you're in the back end of it.

On the back end of it, it's we're we're four and six years out. Um with regard to who's in office um just, you know, in the seats that affect us directly, the people that are um the persons who are the steward, the Bureau of Land Management stewards of the Black Rock Desert,

we have a direct relationship with them all the time. And um usually if they ever come to like us then they are um relocated within a year or two. Um if they don't like us they seem to stick around.

Um but many uh an official uh who works for the Bureau of Land Management has tried to make their name off of trying to manage Burning Man because for some reason they think they can do it better than us even though they don't quite understand what it is. And so they come in and they try to force us to do all these things. And you know, it's one one of our larger departments at Burning Man is our um government affairs department.

Mhm.

Um because we're constantly managing or interfacing with and hoping to manage or help to manage um the governmental influence that is being pushed upon us. And um it's it's it's it's about five people's full-time job is to manage that.

Is it because I I know like where I work and I'm sure it's a pretty common thing in almost any organization is like whenever you have new leadership they in anything it's like they have to kind of demonstrate you know it's like look I'm doing something and like I'm changing things like even

yes

you know something that's like oh it's been established and around for decades and it's like you know it's like this everything is all where you could cut has been cut. It's like this is it's as efficient as possible. It's like you don't need to reinvent the wheel like a 20th fourth time you know but but here's somebody new and it's like and they have to uh

the last time that happened on a significant level is when they wanted us to put up the barriers that you see I think they're called a New Jersey barrier the the barriers you see on freeways

they fill with the water like those plastic ones.

No, not the plastic ones. The

Oh, the concrete ones.

Concrete ones. They wanted us to do our perimeter fence with those which would make playunes. Like when the wind blew, we would have so much damage to the playa like the crash fence allows the dust to blow through and and not create um disruption to the player. Like absolutely crazy idea, but they were insistent upon us and they wanted us to bring in garbage cans that would ruin Burning Man. It would ruin Burning Man and we had to fight really long and hard to keep these crazy things from happening. They seem like a no-brainer answer to somebody who doesn't know anything about what we're doing and the intricacies, but they're absolutely ludic. to our culture and our our steadfast commitment to being good stewards of the Black Rock Desert. They're just crazy ideas.

Yeah. Do you ever think about like

Yeah. You ever think about like when you know someone new is coming in be like, "Hey, let's give them a freebie." You like, "Let's pull back on something that we normally do and just be like, you know, we don't have a trash fence or something, you know, just be it's like, you know, you need to do is build a trash.

I wish it was that simple. I wish it was that simple, but it's not.

Where it's like, you know, since you're new here, we decided that we're not going to do this thing anymore. You know, we're not going to have portaotties. It's like, what? You need to have them. Like, all right, good idea.

Yeah,

sounds maybe we'll try it.

Uh, so I'm trying to think. Oh, yeah. So, um, another thing that, uh, more recent burners probably won't realize like we were talking about before like there there was no like amplified music I mean in the the beginning and so uh I have in my notes from our last one so was like was it 1993 or 1994 Larry invited Turbo Ted

yeah

so Turbo Ted did raves in San Francisco so was that

yeah so raves had just become a thing and oftentimes they were done in churches and everybody's on um some kind of drug and um I think MDMA was just you know ecstasy was just new on the horizon at that point and so you rent this church and the rave scene was created um and Larry saw that as a place where younger people were gathering and thought let's do it let's let's let's be part of what's happening right now so he invited Turbo Ted to come out in um 1995 and he did come out and brought his ray of community with him. Couple hundred people for sure and we put them half a mile um upwind from us from the people who were there for Burning Man itself. We had they weren't integrated at the point. They were two separate things coming together

at Larry's invitation. Um and a lot of people loved both of these things and we would drive our cars with people sitting on top of the cars between the two because there was really very little law enforcement or we hadn't worked all this stuff out yet. We didn't know what was dangerous and what wasn't other than, you know, we're all crazy. And so, but the sound of the rave music drove those of us that weren't interested in it crazy. So, the next year, Turbo Ted said he'd like to come back and Larry and I don't know who it was. Um, probably John and Larry, maybe Michael, I don't know, decided to put it a mile downwind of us and a mile proved to be too far. The downwind part was good because I never heard the music and it I was I was already involved in organization like I was working my ass off at by this point in 1996. Um and I was creating the infrastructure that is what what we all commonly experience as Burning Man now where you know you know you have information resources and you're you know where the streets are and you can find a camp and I was creating all that and so like I didn't have time for a rave and it wasn't my kind of music anyway but it was a mile downwind and um it was going crazy uh off the hooks. There were not enough portaotties down there um and Turbo disappeared um so now there's no leadership down there at all and uh I was standing at the Ranger station when somebody drove up in a van with garbage bags full of human feces and said, "Here's your lack of portaotties, dude. Like, we have no portaotties down there." And that was from Turbo's camp. Um, and then of course, uh, there was the person who got super high and ran over two or three tents in the

Yeah.

really early in the morning and that whole story. Um, So, no, they were not aligned or committed at all to each other. Um, they we found a lot of common ground. By 1997, it was kind of a done deal. It's a Harley's three-year rule rule, right? The first year kind of sucks. Second year, you learn a lot and the third year it gets integrated. And so, by the third year, 1997, it was pretty that kind of music. And what the inception of this underground hipster art scene in San Francisco had become one, they'd become entwined. Uh, and we were starting to get people from, you know, around the country to come to the event. And so it was no longer the San Francisco hipsters with the San Francisco Ravers has become something larger than that by 1997.

So in terms of like Burning Man's evolution in like an organ the evolution of the organization, so in 1990 it was like a like 80 people just kind of caravanning out and just kind of loosey goosey like we're going camping in the desert, right? You know, but like is Yeah. So, I mean, did it kind of like what almost exponentially grew like each year was kind of like doubled and

it doubled every year. Yeah.

Yeah. So, like by the time you got there in like 911, I mean, so you you got there, right? Like when it was starting to grow,

right, when it started to need a little bit of infrastructure, right?

So, how did that infrastructure grow? I mean, was it just kind of organic like who came together?

Um Uh, I would say a lot of it was me. Um, I there were a couple of other naturalb born organizers like Nancy Denny Phelps who now lives in Europe, um, who was a natural organizer and she helped and Miss P, uh, she was a caterer and so she helped. Um, but I didn't realize it, but I had a natural ability to sort of see a need and get it done. I used to call myself a crack filler. Um my very first year on the PLA in 1991. Um I was one I was the person who who remembered to bring coffee and lots of it. So um

people loved you. They would listen to you.

Yeah. They would they certainly remembered my name. Um and you know by uh 1995 I saw John laying out the circle which was center camp. camp in 1994 or 1993. I was a person who would drive out. We had um you basically you had a circle that was center camp. It was it was illdefined. Um people didn't really respect it. Hardly even knew it was there, but it was an open space. And we did try to get a cafe like presence in the middle of it. But we basically had these two vector lines that went out that spread out from center camp out into the great play and the man would be put in the middle so that people wouldn't camp. by the man, which would be dangerous when it burnt, but also ugly to look at. And so I uh self-p policed. I I went out my bicycle and would find people that camped over overnight and they'd be like, "I don't want to move. I already set up all my stuff." And I'd be like, "Why don't you hop on my bike and go back to center camp and look out?" And they come back and they say, "Oh my god, you're right. I can't stay here." They realized that they weren't in a place that, you know, was good for everybody. Um so I was always just I just by nature doing that kind of thing. I I started placement in 1995 because we need to define that circle so people would know what that circle is, right? Like why draw it if you're not going to def not going to enforce it? And and it was for good. It is to to make to make a central gathering space for people. Um 1997 I started PIA info which is a resource just basic information board I guarded from Dan Miller put up the information board. I think even my first year 1991, he put up, you know, a sheet of plywood. Um, and I guarded that because it was the only resource people had to find anything. There was nothing there. Um, and then by 1997, I was like, we need a little bit more than an information board at this point. And so I started building that out and placement was a thing. And then I started greeters the same year and Earth Guardians turned into a thing because we were on private land in 1997 and uh we were messing with the natural terrain and we needed to reestablish it. So this group of people out of Reno gathered and taught us how to get the right kind of seed to eradicate the road that we'd cut in on this private piece of property. And so the Earth Guardians were born. So a lot of stuff was born like 1997 to 1999 that I then managed I cultivated and managed. Burning man information radio is another one that came out then. Um so yeah so I made a lot of the infrastructure happen all volunteers.

Yeah. I just remember like in in Coyote I think it was in Coyote's book there was a scene I think it was in 96.

Yeah.

When everyone was like burning everything down and you were standing in front of like the the lost and founder information.

I was like don't burn burn down. No one's going to know how to get home in the morning. Like if you burn it down, but they knew me better than I knew myself. And as soon as I stepped off of the caterpillar or whatever I was standing on, they just burnt it anyway. Um, and I was not wearing a prom dress. I was wearing a really beautiful vintage dress. Prom dress. Thank you, Kitty.

So, yeah. So, I mean, so what like did was Larry involved like uh and and Michael and John like I mean were in terms of like the organization and and stuff and and like getting people organized in like a setting.

No, not so much. Um I had specialies pull the hotline out of Michael Michael's hands. He was involved with that with the hotline. This is before the internet, right? The only thing we had was like cell phones were really not cell phones. Um

um answering machines were really the rage back then. That was way you could leave an message and get it picked up later. So he had expandable um mailboxes on ABC communication uh and he managed that and he gave that to me and I managed it and so basically somebody would call in and say I need a ride or I want to buy a ticket or I would expand and contract these boxes and then when I get them on the phone I say hey what are you doing out there and they say like well I'm going to do a a camp where it's all about um everybody's birthday every day and I say oh this sounds like a theme camp do you want me to place you and so I leveraged that opportunity um to start to push some of the things that I thought were important Um, like we don't want stores lining our streets, of course, like we have in the default world, but why not these wonderful camps that are doing fun things for everybody? Um, so, uh, Larry was always the visionary. He was always the big thinker. John always wanted to get the cool s*** out there. He'd find all the cool artists and he'd get all the heavy equipment and he'd make sure that the propane tanks got out there and and the cool got out there. He was really good at that. Um Michael Michael um well he started the Rangers in 1991. By 1992 he gave it to um Joe Fenton to run Bogman. Um so he was sort of a creator of of ideas that would manifest. But um I ran a lot of that stuff. I ran center camp since 1994. What does that mean? It means someone finally handed me a radio and I would try to keep track of people and know where they were. so if something happened that I would know um and be able to communicate information to others. Uh and so uh Marian came on in 1997 essentially um and she outward communications.

Crimson was there from the same time I was there and she started um recruiting artists and performers for a main stage. We had a stage

and she would per she would have um artists She would scout artists in San Francisco and have them come out to Burning Man and perform. So she was doing that from I think like 1994 on.

Mhm.

Um and then we got rid of the stage after

96 was our last year.

I know 96 was my first year. That's why like been talking about like some like with the the V and I was like oh I remember that like I remember there being a stage you know but

um but definitely like Bernie well Bernie man's had a number of inflection points and so like 969 7. Two very kind of important years. So 96 like when was that the first death was um

we never had a death.

Well on the way during our event um Michael Fury at his end.

Yeah.

The day before our gates opened. The night before our gates opened.

Um and so that was 1996. Yeah.

And then I feel like there was like like when John Law kind of bowed out to I guess for him.

That's when John Law quit. I quit with John Law. We both quit at the same time. I couldn't I just couldn't fathom it. Um because I thought Burning Man was about the anarchy and the craziness and the fun and all the things that John was bringing out. And I just thought that that's what Burning Man was. And then Larry convinced me um that it's it's not about all the cool things that were out going on out there in the anarchy. It's about the people you would trust to do that kind of thing with. really about community.

I was like, "Oh my god, you're right."

Yeah.

So, he and I got on the phone after I had like a mental breakdown after 1996. That was too much for me.

Um, and we talked about how we would make it a pedestrian and bicycle city, not a driving city. That we would make a formal city grid, and we would push the art out into the open playa um so it could actually be burnt safely. And um the city grid would provide actual locations for people if if they had a medical emergency or something that went wrong with them. I'm at the corner of such and such and such and such.

And when he and I talked all that stuff through, I decided to come back. And that's when I started building more infrastructure, building a pond placement,

creating information resources and and and the radio station started about then too. Carmen Malc uh ran it for me, but I I procured the equipment and etc.

Yeah, she's living in Maui, right?

What's that?

Herman, she lives in Maui now. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I heard that. Yeah, that's cool.

So, then that kind of brings us to like 97 when it's like uh you guys couldn't was it you couldn't get the permit for the Black Rock Desert, but

Yeah. No, too much had gone down and they refused to permit us.

Yeah. Was the whole deal with like the sheriff and like you'd seized your the the money from the the gate.

Yep.

Right. And then

robbed us blind. You you you'd pay your money to the officer with the um gun and the bulletproof vest on in one window and pick up your ticket from, you know, the nice long-haired hippie at the next window. That's what happened. They took her money.

Yeah. So, well, what happened between that like 97 and 98? Cuz I think that wasn't That was another kind of almost inflection point cuz uh it's like that was kind of was uncertain if Burning Man was going to happen after that, right?

Um yes, we thought we would didn't have enough money and you know you know we thought we were we were goners because they stolen all our money and and we weren't really an entity yet. So in 1997 we became an entity. We we started our nonprofit our for-profit Black Rock City LLC. intentionally called Black Rock City LLC and not Burning Man because we didn't we didn't want people knowing who we were essentially. We had a bad rap.

Um so we just went by another name.

Um but we found that our community was loyal. Um we got some amazing donations. I I uh Larry was standing on the hay bale pleading for money in 1997 as people left.

I remember that cuz I remember it was like if it was like if you give us $500, you get a ticket for life. And I remember like looking at like pulling my empty pockets out and being like, I wish I had $500. And now it's like like my friend Curtis Coleman, like he he was one of the people who who did get it. And he was like, oh yeah, I still get a ticket every year. I I don't go, you know, but like I was like, oh man.

Yeah. Um Yeah. So I think we had about 25 people who did that and we still have a few of them left. Um and this one wonderful man walked up to me, this real really short-haired, tall, straight cut looking man, and handed me a check for $20,000.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow.

He said, "All I want from this is to meet Larry." I was like, "No problem, Larry. Larry, come over here. Larry just jumped off from the hay bale and we were walking over towards like the only building we had out there." And I said, "Larry, I'd like to introduce you to what's your name?" Um, his name was Dan. And um and I shook Larry's hand. and he gave us $20,000. So the next year, so this is now 1998, we were able to make it happen. We knew at this point if we didn't do it, people would show up anyway. Um, and there was momentum and we had learned a lot and I was full of ideas and placement was a thing. So I was h building a team of places to come to my house. Um, of course we, you know, I had my first computer in 1997. I didn't know what I was doing with computers and and I had this little house and I invited some people over that I didn't know well but I knew were, you know, would be good at this kind of work. And I get this phone call from this guy and he says, "Oh, hi. Um, you know, I met you at Burning Man and I I thought you were cool and I'd want to volunteer." I was like, "Great. You want to come over tonight?" And he said, "Sure, I'll come over tonight." And so he came over and he helped me place. And then u we went to the Playa Um, and that was the year that the big huge uh temporal de decomposition, I think was the name of it.

The ice cube with the clocks.

Yes.

Yeah.

The ice bulb. And he just pulled he just pulled the fiberglass casing off of it and it was lying on the ground and it was dark and we were kind of tripping as we went through center camp and we tripped over the the the fiberglass and I heard this tink tink tink tink. sound and I knew it was a plastic laminate. I just like I could tell by the sound of it it was a plastic laminate which is what we gave to our 500 and above donors as a recognition like you are a donor. Here is your laminate.

And I was like oh he's one of our donors and I was like so Dan um and he's like yeah I'm the person who gave you 000. Don't tell anybody. And he worked on my team for like another five years.

Oh wow.

And he was like number seven at at some big huge tech startup. And and he's still he's still in touch with us. And yeah, it's a good story, huh?

Yeah. Yeah.

I just knew I knew the sound of that. I was like, that's one of our tech donors.

That's incredible.

Yeah. So by 1998, we were we were solid. And you know, we went from uh 1997 was 900 9,000 people and 1998 was like 10,000 people. So basically the same size

and the next year we went from 10 to 20.

Yeah.

And that was the hardest year on me because I had created all the infrastructure, right? And all the infrastructure was new. Greeters was brand new. Earth Guardians was brand new. Placement was brand new. Lamp lighters had been around but nobody grew it. Um Steve Mia handed me lamp plers or Larry handed me lamp plers in like 20 19 I don't know, 1990 whatever, right in there. 1997, 1998, I got it. All this stuff was brand new and we've gone from 10,000 people to 20,000 people. So, it was a very stressful year, but it worked out fine. 1998 was a great year. It was fine. Yeah. Then, uh, Smash Cut to now, all these years later,

I know it's hard to know like simple beginnings, right? Like,

well, I think it's kind of hard. for people to understand because like now everything is you know after I mean it's going to be next year what 40 years like since

Yeah it's getting close to 40 isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean maybe what 36 since like on like on the play or something but like Yeah. I think the people just kind of showing up now you know it's uh it's like oh like it's like clockwork like everything you do it.

Yeah. That's how it is goes.

Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. All right. Well uh Let's get to our second question. Your your background. So

that was just one question.

That was the first question. I mean, I'm sure we could go on. We could have like a multi-part series, but uh for our listeners like Yeah. So, where'd you grow up?

Oh, I grew up in New Jersey. Northern Jersey.

Yeah.

And I uh I was

because I grew up in northern New Jersey. I grew up in like

I think we've had this conversation before.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I grew up in Anglewood, which is like near to George Washington Bridge. Yeah. I grew up in Montlair, which is near the Lincoln Tunnel.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Jersey. I was happy to get out of there.

I got my drive from being in Jersey.

Yeah.

Get something done because I lived in Jersey.

Yeah.

And my c my mouth like a sailor from being in

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But uh so So, um, what made you go out to San Francisco? Like, did you

So, I'll I'll try to make it as short as possible. I went to a high school of performing arts. I, um, spent a lot of time on the stage, but, I also spent a lot of time designing sets and doing everything everything I possibly could with regard to putting on shows. I um, and then when I graduated from high school, I I found it too scary to go to college, so I went to a very small art school in Exon Pro. France for

wow

nine months and I learned how to paint oil paints and I met my best friend and my mentor cuz she was all of 21 while I was 17. She was so worldly and wise and um she convinced me to apply to school to Queens University in Kingston, Ontario, Canada while I was in France and I got in and I went to art school there and then meanwhile she was had moved to California with her boyfriend who started cheating on her. and I thought he was a jerk. So, I came out to support her at 21 years old and I never went back. And it took me another I don't know um more than 10 years to find the Cacophony Society, but I was always in artistic communities of some sort or another.

So, you were moved out to San Francisco, like in the early 80s, something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think 81. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. Well, I I moved to the East Bay first and I I went to um the Berkeley Psychic Institute where I got clairvoyance training um which is interesting because it was a really wonderful institution and anybody listening to this who's been there will agree with me. It um it's folded and it its roots have taken off into other areas but it was a nexus point in a in a really special place for a period of time and that was in Berkeley. Um

that's still around.

No, just just just remnants of it parts of it. Like I'll hear people that are doing this training or that training. I'm like, "Oh, yeah. That's from the Berkeley Psychic Institute." Lewis Boss work. Boss Boss Lewis Boss work I believe was his name. Was a lot like Larry. He um was uh charismatic in his own strange strange strange way. Larry was charismatic in his own strange way. And um and he was really the force behind things. And when he passed away, everything kind of fell apart. What Larry did that's different is Larry would name the thing and everyone in the room would go, "Yeah, that's the thing. That's right." And we could use it as a foundational building block so we could build from this to that to that to this to this to that and then let things grow. Um Lewis did not have that quality and when he died everything fell apart. But when Larry passed away he had created a foundation that was strong enough by his um his talent of being able to name the thing. Uh,

so Larry wouldn't tell you like how to do it. Like he would just describe like what it was and

Oh, Larry was terrible at doing anything.

Yeah. So it followed like you

like I did all like you know we all did it all around him. I did and like he would he would come up with the idea and I'd see it and I would manifest it you know and not so much Michael and John quit early. Um Crimson manifested a lot. Marian manifested a lot but Larry and I kind of did the city more than the others. But yeah, I was a manifesttor. He was a creator. But he never he couldn't do anything. He could hardly tie his shoelaces. Literally, he tells a story or when he was alive, he tell a story how he couldn't remember how to tie a bow. So, he would trick his friends into tying his shoelaces for him.

What?

Like into adulthood or is this like

No, as a child. As a child. Not into adulthood. As a child. But like that's the kind of person he was. Like he could see the vision. He couldn't necessarily do it. I'm envisioning a bow on my shoes.

Don't you know how to do one of those? Didn't your mom teach you? Hey,

your kid,

you know, let me tell you a story about bows and shoes. Like, oh, I want to make one right now. Really show me.

Yes.

I love Larry. He was he was such a character. Such a good

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's why, you know, like Bryman like continues to this day, right? You know, I mean, it's like he

provided the inspir other people made it happen and now it's like we're all kind of evolving on and then there's the whole like excuse me like the regional network in Bernie man like in the the rest of the world

it's huge.

How much of that did did you have to do with or were you kind of more like like black rock city like centered?

No, actually in the early days Marian and I were in it equally. Um in 1997 uh this guy named Pap from

he's my first guest actually. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I love George.

In 1997 he said, you know, I I'm going to do this fundraiser because I need know I know you need the money because the cops just took all your money. And so he started the regional network and then um the gentleman from Canada did all of Canada for us. Um and so uh I was definitely there in the inception phase of it. Marian took it over for a long period of time. But at the same time I was developing trainings uh for internal use which meant volunteers and we had very few staff members at the time but for our volunt volunteer network which was like you know not only how how to use the technology that's that's new because technology was becoming a thing in 1997 198 and so all these things like Mailchimp that they we had to be trained in all those things but more importantly like how do we treat our volunteers how do we treat each other how do we um communicate Well, how do we um solve problems together? How do we solve differences together? And I was creating all these trainings and learning from burners and learning from professionals in the field and bringing them and honing them into the Burning Man culture internally in the organization. And all of that fed into the regional network um and is very useful to to this day uh to people around the world because You know, the first thing a new regional when they do their first event, the fir they always ask for two things. The first thing they ask for is how do I build my volunteer base? And we've got that totally down. Like we h we have a manual, we've got training videos, we've got um uh courses you can take, we've got courses you can deliver and learn from yourself. All of that. And the second thing they ask for is um how do we get our ranger network up and running and the rangers have the best trainings in the whole wide world. So, I was kind of doing that more of that kind of end of things, nurturing those kinds of ends of things. Um, while Marian was really developing the the regional network, you mentioned Beex, of course, Beex was our first person out in the road. Um, and I've spoken to her recently. Um, she's happy with her beautiful little son in New Zealand.

New Zealand.

Anyway, it's nice that this is still is is around and we can still communicate and still love each other.

Oh, yeah. All right. Well, I think we finally got into our last question. Uh, so what is the the impact of Burning Man or the influence of Burning Man on your life?

On my life.

Yeah. So, I mean, so how much of your life has been tied up in all this? I mean, since God, I mean, when I mean, it might even be before you went to Black Rockck Desert, right? I mean, even just like living in 19 07 Golden Gate.

Yeah. And I would even say before that I I

Yeah.

I'd say like the first time I ever took a step off the cliff and just did a free fall, which is what Burning Man doing Burning Man was like. Like you had no idea where you were going. And of course, you know, it was volunteer. So wasn't like I was losing money at it or not not able to feed myself or pay my rent because I was volunteering. I basically worked all day to earn a living and then I worked all night to do Burning Man. Um, but I the first time I took a step off that cliff was when I was 17 and I went to France without knowing how to speak the language and knowing where I was going. So, I guess I've always been a risk taker. I'm not afraid of taking risks. I'm a fairly good judgment of personalities and opportunities. Um, so I'm not one to turn down a good opportunity if it comes at me. Uh, So that served me well. I think a lot of people would have just walked away and not put as much into it as I did just because I'm hardwired that way.

Mhm.

Um but I met my husband at Burning Man. I planned my pregnancy for my daughter around Burning Man. I was my second trimester, which means you feel like you you're in heaven. I when I was running the city back in 2002, and my daughter was born or 2003 my daughter was born later that year. Um my daughter has come to the office with me since she was 1 month old because she was ready she was ready just to be in a a cradle by my desk. Um she stayed in the office with me until she went to kindergarten because we got an office for her and she had an a nanny come in. So I I mean I want to say like I feel like out of all the founders I'm the least I identify I who I am the least amount with Burning Man. I really like to think of myself as an artist and a organizer and a mother and a wife and um a lover of art and Burning Man's somewhere down that list.

But when I think about it really hard, maybe that's not so true. Um it certainly has been my life work. Uh and my daughter's now 21. Uh she takes off a semester from college every year to come to Burning Man. She helps me run my camp. I have my own camp and she comes and helps me run my camp and

well she's basically Burning Man has just been her entire life. I mean because it it's funny you talked to Coyote. It was like it was like we did the math and I was like you know really it's like half of your life and so now what you're telling me I'm like that's probably more than half of your life and it's like and your daughter I'm like well that's 100%.

100%. It's like she I can't believe what she knows like she takes like I'll bring somebody in so often what I do do when I have speaking engagements and I go around the world and I I meet people who should come to Burning Man like they're doing Burning Man like I don't think Burning Man is the event in the desert I think Burning Man is the way we behave with each other and the way we act and the way we treat each other and so like I meet a burner who does doesn't know the word burner and I bring him to Burning Man and my daughter takes him out and introduces him to the city and I'm just blown away by what she knows. I never taught her that stuff. Like how does she know all this stuff? Because she grew up with it. She just grew up with it.

Well, it's almost kind of like just reminded of the cacophony society tagline, you know, it's like it's like you may already be a member.

Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly.

So, another thing, let's see. Uh when we spoke last time, you spoke of transformational experience

and you're like four pillars of that.

Yeah. So, I don't believe you have to come to Burning Man to have a transformational experience. I think Burning Man is a perfect place to do that if you want to. You don't have to. It's a choice. Um, but many people do it whether they want to or not. They find themselves on that track. And so I analyzed it and I speak about it regularly now and and I've analyzed it to um to be four pillars as you mentioned. The first one is a place where you feel safe and I don't mean like like Bernie man's not necessarily safe place, but you personally feel safe. And and that's whatever it is for you. Like maybe it means not being videoed. Maybe it means um you know being in a warm environment. Maybe it means um being allowed to do anything you want to and not h have being judged by it. Whatever safe is for you, Burning Man pro can provide a very safe environment for people that they've never experienced before. um or maybe they have once or twice but they can even create it for themselves at Burning Man. Second thing is that you do meaningful work and what do I mean by meaningful work? I I mean work that um you don't get paid for like sure maybe few of us get paid for the stuff we find really meaningful. We get paid for it and that's great. It's great if you can combine the two but what I mean is something that fills your soul. Something that when you you come home at the end of the day you're like oh my god That was so worth it. I'm so happy I spent my day like that today. Like it just it it's um it's meaningful. It it fills you. It it fills up your cup.

Um the third thing is getting pushed out of your comfort zone. And I mean really truly. I don't mean just like you walked in the rain. I mean like maybe you had a breakdown or maybe you, you know, hyperventilated or maybe you just felt so insecure like I'm not pretty enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not this enough. Everybody around me is so much more cool than me. Or maybe it's just a dust storm and not being able to see your hand in front of your face. But being pushed to your edge, so you find out where your edge is.

Like like thinking outside of the box or just like kind of like getting rid of your constraints, you know, because most of us kind of live like, well, I couldn't do that, you know?

Right. Right. Well, what if you could do that? What if you tried to do that? Yeah.

Well, how hard would it be for you to try to do that? Right. All of those things. And and Lord knows everybody who goes to Burning Man, they have their highs and they have their lows. You know,

it's not more than once I've had a grown man cry on my shoulder. Um so being pushed to your edge and finding out what your edge is because that's part of who you are, right? Where is your edge? And then the last one is grounding all of that stuff in ritual and ceremony. Of course, the burning of the man is the ultimate ritual and ceremony that most people think of, but what other rituals and ceremonies are there out there? They're they're abundant everywhere around us at and in Black Rock City um and at regional events and and and frankly, you can find these kinds of things by getting cancer or being in a war zone. Like, these are also things that will show you your edge and and and take you to your limit and and find ritual and ceremony to ground you and get you through it. So it doesn't have to be a positive thing like burning man. It could be a negative things. This can happen anywhere. Transformational experiences can happen anywhere. But burning man is machine. It's a machine that's set up to do that for you if you want to take that ride.

Yeah. Yeah. Like that's kind of like when I don't know sometimes I have interesting like debates with people especially like a lot of like um newer burners they look at the 10 principles and it I don't know. Sometimes I think people kind of treat it almost like as a as like a dogma, you know, and I'm like, "No, no, no. It's it's more of like a recipe." Like I look at it as kind of like a recipe that converts strangers into into like really close friends if not relatives, you know? It's like it's it's it's not it's not the end goal in itself. It's like it's a way to get there. And what the end goal is, it's like that's not what the 10 principles describes,

right? So the 10 principles are a step beyond the transformational experience. Once kind of gone through the transformational experience which you don't have to come to Burning Man to get and then you can apply the 10 principles as a recipe and and it's different in different cultures right like when I went to South Africa when I'm cleaning up all my loop I'm taking somebody's job away from them

that's how they make their money is cleaning up other people's m just a different way to think about things right like it's just everything's relative and everything's in balance and it's It'll find its own balance in whatever environment you're in.

Yeah. Well, I think that's the last the three question. Any final words or uh any plugs you want to plug? I mean, do you Well, one thing I kept thinking was like uh do what is like retirement look like to you? I mean, will you just kind of keep keep doing this as long as you can or or Do do you see a point where you're just kind of like, I want to hand this off and I want to see

I'm ready. I'm so ready to hand it off. I'm waiting for the right moment and the right moment is upon me. It'll happen any time now.

Um I really believe that we're doing this whole organization a disservice, this whole network of human beings a disservice by not letting the younger people step up and take it over. And I am fully committed to I've already given away my job three or four times. I' I've I I really I keep giving it away. Um and I'm ready to give this one away, too. My husband just retired from his career. Um and uh I'm living with my 94 year old mother and I'm living with my 21-year-old daughter. We all have our little cottages are separate from each other, but I'm doing the full circle thing here and I'm really relishing these moments. Um and I believe that Burning Man is um almost set up to be exactly where it should be. Um the business I see I say the business entity what like some people talk to me like sure I I did HR and I I talked to our legal team and I I uh I worry about people's pensions and um whether their health care is good enough but that's just one teeny weeny weeny weeny little speck of this huge community that we've created. And to me that's Burning Man, not the business entity that I have been engag in for the last 10 or so years because Marian Goodell and I have been running the organization. Um I stepped out about two years ago now from running the or meaning the the legal and the HR and the and the compensation and the hiring and firing and all that stuff and like that's not Burning Man to me. Um so I'll never leave Burning Man. It'll always be my community and my family. Uh but yeah, I'm ready to give it to the next generation. I'm ready to move on and I and I look forward to it. I think it's the the mo most healthy thing we could be doing right now is letting it go. Somebody in my position as a founder.

Yeah. But you, like you said, you you'll always kind of keep a toe in and you'll always come back.

Well, I hope to always go to Burning Man.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And maybe I'll come back to Hawaii and visit you again. You

Oh, definitely.

You

Well, it's kind of many years ago. I think when I was 98 or something like for me They would when people say what's Bernie man all about. It's just like I mean how many participants have there been like a million or something over the years like if depends on how you count it you know it's like there's probably a million different reasons or people things people to get out of it you know but for me it was always something what they called the connection you know and so that's kind of like the genesis of this whole project I'm doing too you know like I think people kind of come for the art they come for the spectacle but then they if they stay and some people don't stay you know but like some but if they stay it's for the community

they find their people

and yeah and it's what I call the connection the community even like we're saying like Larry was talking about like I mean like I think that's that's the magic you know we're talking about the 10 principles like it converts like complete random strangers into like you know almost family

well jerks into nice people

yeah it's like it's like how that's some crazy magic there All right. Well, I think we're coming up on hour and 15, which is usually about where we cut out, but thank you so much. This has been a wonderful And thank you for like the the second time going around. At least we don't have the uh

I'm so glad we did it again. I'm so glad.

Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much.

Thank you, Andy. Love to your family.

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, rate, and review it on Apple Podcast. Spotify or wherever you listen. The more reviews the show has, the more likely it will even appear in search results. Also, please tell a friend and share this show with anyone that you think might like it. Word of mouth reaches quite far, especially in the Burning Man community. If you would like to contact us, please send an email to shadowofthemanodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow Shadow of the Man on social media at Facebook Instagram, Blue Sky X, and YouTube. The links for all of these are available at shadowoftheman.com. Feel free to use any of these social media accounts to provide any feedback you might have. Your thoughts on the show are greatly appreciated. Thank you and see you soon for a new episode of The Shadow of the Man.

Thank you for listening to this latest show. We have to make another one so, Got to go. Don't worry for next month, we already have one in the can. Very soon, you'll be listening to a new shadow of the man.