EP 92 Lara Hopwood

Episode 92 with Lara Hopwood is out now! Meet Lara Hopwood, a project manager for the Burning Man Regional Network, who discusses the global expansion of the event’s culture. Lara explains that her role involves supporting a worldwide ecosystem of local communities and volunteer contacts who bring the ten principles to life outside of the main desert gathering. The conversation highlights how Burning Man has evolved from a single annual experiment into a permanent cultural movement that fosters participation and civic engagement through year-round regional events and virtual spaces. She explains how the "burner" identity is defined by a commitment to creativity and community rather than just a trip to the Black Rock Desert.

https://burningman.org/global-events-groups/burning-man-regional-network/

regional-network@burningman.org

https://www.linkedin.com/in/larahopwood/

https://burningman.org/about-us/who-we-are/rising-sparks/

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man. Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. 

I'm your host, Andy. Who? That Andy. Today our guest is one and only Laura Hopwood. Welcome.

Hi Andy. Thank you for having me on your show.

So what is your position? Are you one you're one of the regional network um like what's what's your title?

Um my title which as you probably know Burning Man is not really big into titles but I have one

is a project manager for the region. network and uh that encompasses a lot of things. Um but I support the Burning Man Regional Network which as you know is a global network of local communities that bring Burning Man culture to life where they live. And I specifically work on um supporting the right now about 230 regional contacts in 34 countries and 36 US states um who help people connect and create together all year long. Um a lot of what I do as part of the regional network team, which is a pretty small group, there's uh three, one, two, three full-time and two part-time uh employees. I help people carry the Burning Man culture into the places where they actually live. Um I work on a lot of systems that help the volunteer regional contacts like enter, grow, collaborate, deal with change and eventually hand leadership to somebody else.

Um and so that you know includes like uh regional contact selection, onboarding, all kinds of learning opportunities, communication to to and from regional contacts um succession and sometimes helping communities through you know navigating difficult situations.

So those are some of the things that I do in that role but you know that is just one little title to encompass a lot of different things.

Yeah. Yeah. So you're basically helping the regionals like around the world and around the country to be their best regional selves. It's Not so much like you put on like the Noriega hat and you're kind of swooping in being like, "Let me tell you how everything's going to work."

Oh, heck no. No, no, no. We try never to be prescriptive about what somebody should or shouldn't be doing because that's part of, you know, burner culture is really doing it the way that makes sense for that community.

Every, you know, Andy.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Contact every every community. community is different and so what one community may not may want to do another one has some other interest and so it really and there's different size communities different activity levels and so it really we guide them and offer suggestions

um and try to offer opportunities to develop as leaders but really it's um we really encourage regional contacts to listen to their community for what they want and serve as like

the connective fiber among burners.

Um, and so what we're trying to do is help them

be good stewards of the culture, not necessarily

control a community.

Well, it's not like a McDonald's like franchise.

It is not a franchise. No, no, no.

You didn't follow the manual. No, but I remember as Larry was saying like the regionals he would look at as like like petri dishes, you know, and so like there would be like all of these like experiments going on because Bman always was like an experiment and living, right? And so

you have all of these different cultures and considerations and and environments. I mean, everywhere from like like Alaska where it's like freezing cold and dark, you know, to the the tropics to, you know, foreign countries where it's, you know, it's like when I was um uh interviewing like Roxan Jesse, you know, then as in in her book and she was talking about like the different regionals she went to and I remember like Japan, you know, was like was was very different but I mean it was beautiful in its own way and it it was very communal but also they were just like very strictly like no no nudity, you know, and also about like taking pictures and stuff and it was no it's just like everywhere just has its own like different considerations. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think um you know especially as people people tend to I think focus on official regional events that happen around the world and there are currently about uh in 2025 there were 94 of them

around across 18 countries. And so people tend to think about oh the regional network it is regional events you know mini Burning Man And really it's m much broader and bigger than that. Um and

I think that I just think that uh it's important for people to have an opportunity to um experience the culture. That might be one doorway into it.

And I think there's plenty of other lighter lift ways that people can and um get involved. But you were talking about something right before that and then I just kind of started to think about all kinds of things. So

well the Roxy and Jesse and the then the Japanese like uh burn and just like how they're different in different locations and

Yeah, they just are. They're very different. All each community is different.

So this 94 different events is like are they all like multi-day like events or or we talking about like just like one night events like in cities or something?

Many of them are multi-day campouts. Um some of them are one-day events like a one-day decompression event which is often something that a community holds as you know after

after Black Rock City or after their regional local regional event as sort of a a secondary

um way to bring people together to keep celebrating and reflecting on their um experience together. So, it it varies. Um but yeah, it can be a one day, it could be a multi-day, it could be a whole week.

Yeah. And then, okay, there's another topic that was kind of related. Um because I'm trying to like, you know, get a a broad swath of people the show's all about, you know, it's like it's like what is the the impact of Burning Man and their life like over time? It's like and So many people they're just kind of like the questions kind of like well who is a burner? What is a burner? You know like years and years ago like in the '9s or whatever it was it's like oh anyone who goes to Black Rockck City right you know and so but now with the growth of the regional network it's like there are many many many people who've never been to Black Rockck City and and and I'm actually really interested to you know interview some of these people who like like either like oh yeah no I went to my regional I think I have interviewed a couple people like oh Yeah. And I I for the first 10 years I was only doing my regional thing and then I went to like Black Rock City later or or some people who've like never been to Black Rock City. And then there's the whole like Brettman VR thing where I mean that kind of divides some people to just like oh you can't be a real burner if you never meet somebody physically in real life, you know. I'm like I don't know. I think human connection is human connection. You know, I'm sure Athena would would agree with that, right?

Oh, I'm sure she would. Yeah. I you know, it's funny, Andy. I during the pandemic lockdown

when everything kind of had to move online. I was very like, oh no, online, which is funny because Burn 2 has been in existence for oh my gosh, I for many many many years and so and I had been in burn two and had a great time. So I was like, wait, where is this coming from? And um I actually miss a little bit uh having that more available um having virtual reality Burning Man available in part because you can hop on and connect with people uh really almost any time of day or night. So that is a and I I can remember having a lot of very fun experiences with people in um uh the virtual reality BRCV BRCVR which I think now has kind of been sunseted and become burner burner fear which

something like Yeah.

is helping Shepherd. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a little less tongue twisty.

Yes. Yeah. But I I ended up I remember uh flying through uh the Playa, the virtual Playa, and I ended up talking with this guy and we both had our virtual reality uh fire spinning props and he said, "Hey, come with me to this other, you know, follow me. I'm going to show you something." And so we ended up on this adventure together throughout all these different parts of the the virtual world. And it turns out as we spoke um it turns out that he lived nearby actually physically. I mean, we weren't going to meet during the pandemic, but

you know, and that he was a fire spinner, which I was a fire spinner as well. And so Oh,

I was like, "Oh my gosh, we could absolutely meet up at a at a fire jam sometime, and that would be lovely to meet you as a real human,

not just a virtual persona."

Yeah.

So, I mean, I do think you can connect with people very much in online spaces as well as in real life.

Yeah. And then, well, as we're recording, like the um the HBO documentary, like the miniseries just had its fourth episode. I actually watched the first three. I haven't watched the fourth one yet,

but But um there there is that one character, that one woman who I guess her experience was through the burner sphere BRC VR, right? And so then it was following her as she's going to like her first burn. I was like, "Wow, that's that was incredible." Yeah,

I thought so too. And it did that I watched the series docue series The Man Will Burn as well

and she made me feels nostalgia for that time period. I mean, who wants to go back in time to the pandemic, but um it made me appreciate even more the ability, the availability of connection even in a time when everyone was so separated.

Mhm.

Yeah. Yeah.

I have to try that one. Yeah.

Burn Two is open year round, too. You know, lot of

What do you need for it? I mean, do you need like a headset or whatever or Is it like is it free? There's like a subscription or like how does that work?

Oh, it's all it's free. Yeah, definitely. Um, Burn Two is an official regional event. Um,

and my when I did it, all I needed was a keyboard and an you sign up for an account through the burn to

uh I think website has instructions and there are people who will greet you there and can help you

navigate around and and understand how to participate in the world. Um, as well as how to if you want to build things in it.

So, um, yeah, I had a keyboard and I don't think I even had a headset. I just

just through your computer.

Yeah.

It was pretty accessible.

Okay. Well, um, how does this all begin with you? What was the first time you ever even heard of Burning Man? Yeah, I have an interesting Oh gosh, my path to Burning Man, there were all these little breadcrumbs, if you will.

Mhm.

Um, I'd say the first time that I was ever kind of intrigued and I didn't even know like I wouldn't say it was Burning Man related. I went to I went to college at UC Berkeley. and lived in Berkeley. And that was in the '9s.

Mhm.

And I remember being on Telegraph Avenue when all of a sudden all of these art cars started driving down Telegraph Avenue covered, you know, modified, covered in little chachkis and I like like

action figures and things.

Jewels of of just it was really really fascinating and I thought oh my god I would love to meet the people who made those like it was a very visceral feeling like I I I thought oh my I have to know I that what happened what just happened you know

but did you feel like like we were like well come on this is Berkeley like you know this is like a Berkeley thing right

I hadn't seen that yet and it was awesome and And then it just kind of kind of faded out of my life. I didn't think much about it. I'd say maybe a year or two later, I was um there was this guy who I I knew in the dorms. Um his name was Will and he was a quirky character. And ironically, he looked a lot like the um like Edward Norton, the one of the main characters in the film. Um um Fight Club, which

Fight Club. Yeah, I was going to say

um

that's another cacophony inspired thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And the thing that was funny is I remember talking with him and he's like, "Yeah, I've been taking these tours of sewers, the sewers of Berkeley and traversing the whole city." And I was like, "Normally, you would think that is so disgusting." And my first reaction was I said to him, I'm like, "Take me next time you go." And so, I I think even though I don't think that was associated with it, I think I've been kind of I had started to be like brushing up always with some of that cacophony energy.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then finally um on a flight oh probably a year or so later um I was on a flight home and this man sitt next to me blonde hair wearing a um, purple velvet smoking jacket on the plane and he struck up a conversation and he had a magazine in his hand and he started to talk about the magazine article and there was a picture I remember it very clearly of u Mary and Goodell and Larry Harvey and he said oh I work for these two people they're my bosses and he started to talk about Burning Man and had I heard about about it and I I hadn't so I listened and he said you should go to Burning Man and I remember thinking being very intrigued by it but also thinking is this person hitting on me? I don't want to be hit on. And so like I kind of shut down the conversation. Uh and I don't think that the universe could have given me a bigger invitation than right then and there. Um What year was that? Was that like later

90s?

I want to say it was like 19967 something like that maybe or 98 somewhere around there.

So who was the person in the velvet smoking jacket?

I don't know. I actually wondered at one point if it was Will Chase and I asked him. Will Chase was on the Burning Man communications team for many years and he he had no recollection of it, but he was kind of like, h, you never know. Could have been me,

so I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know.

I think it was just really somebody who wanted to talk about Burning Man, but I was just feeling young and stupid.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Perhaps it's like a ghost of Burning Man future, you know, visiting.

So, yeah. And then my my path to getting actually to Bernie man from there, those were the earliest sort of ings and invitations. Um, you know, I have always loved art and music and literature and um, so I think that's always appealed to me. I um, there really came a point in my life where I was, you know, I had a really nice job, uh, nice, you know, house. nice. Everything was very nice and comfortable.

But I would I was going to work across, you know, a long commute across the Bay Bridge. Um, and it just started to all feel the same, like very started to kind of ask these existential questions,

monotonous, just

is this all there is? Is this it? You know, you wake up, you commute, You work, you commute home, you eat, you go to sleep, and then do it again day in and day out.

And I thought, "Oh my god, what am I going to do? I'm going crazy." And in it was almost like an internal voice said to me, um, you have to pay attention. You have to pay attention. And so in that moment, I thought, all right, I'm gonna pay more attention to the things that uh interest me that that I get curious about, even if it's a little tiny tiny little spark of curiosity.

Don't don't put that ember out. And so, um, that ended up, you know, leading me a lot of different places. Um, I'll try to keep this tight. Uh, I ended up One of the first things I did is I thought, well, you know, I always love gardening. So, I became a master gardener, which I loved teaching people about gardening. I loved helping them solve their problems related to gardening. Um, but that that wasn't enough. A lot of what I was doing was sitting alone at a help desk. Um,

and I I thought, well, this was great, but this is not everything

like a step in the right direction.

Yeah, a step in the right direction. And then I asked some friends. I thought, well, you know what? I really like the teaching aspect of this. And I had actually gone to college thinking I would be an English teacher. Um and so I thought, well, maybe I should focus on teaching and and follow that little um inclination. So I asked around asked some friends, you know, do you know anyone who's a teacher? And a friend of mine suggested that I talk to this guy named Johnny,

friend of hers named Johnny.

So, I ended up trying to I I ended up talking with him and he was a really quirky guy, funny, quirky, weird, and um he turns out he was a fitness instructor. And I I was like, I don't know if that's really where I want to go with this, but I'm going to talk to him anyway. So I said, "Can we chat about this?" He said, 'Yeah, you got to come down here and take my my fitness class. I was like,

"Okay,

okay. How much do I want this?" And I was like, "All right, I'll come take your fitness class. I'm not going to say no. This is about saying yes." And so, uh, I went and did that. We had a conversation. We just talked about thing life in general. And all of a sudden, he asks me out of the blue. Out of the blue. have you ever thought about making big art? And I was like, what? What

is this guy hitting on me? What do you mean big art? What do you mean by that?

I don't know. And uh he said, you know, like big metal sculptures and there was he I don't ever remember him talking about Burning Man. It turns out I would find out later that he has been a burner for many years. He's been a media mecca volunteer for many years and and and he is now a dear friend. But uh I thought I no I haven't thought about making big art. Um and so but what it did remind me of as I was driving home thinking about it was that in um when I was a kid in middle school um I loved metal and wood shop. You know other people were taking things like you know fine art and I don't know, homeck and whatnot. And I was like, I love I It was me and Martha Tai. I remember the two of us were the only girls in this metal class and we didn't care. And so I thought, you know what? I would love to go back to that and do it again. Where can I learn how to weld?

And I walked in the door. I asked my husband. I'm like, do you know of any place where I might be able to to learn how to weld? And He said, "Well, if you come off as you come off the uh Bay Bridge, there's this billboard for a place called The Crucible. I don't know what it is."

Uhhuh.

So, I looked up The Crucible, which is an industrial arts education center in Oakland, California. And I was signed up for a welding class. They had all kinds. So, I signed up for that. And then, as I was just about to click away from their website, I saw saw this group of a department of classes called fire performance. And so I, you know, oh, the little flickery flame was just like a fire at that point because I had been um on my high school color guard team

and loved it. And I had ended up I had been the captain my senior year and really missed it. I

exactly is a color card. Is that like cheering or like pom pom squad kind of thing or like

It's adjacent to that. We would do things kind of with them. Um it is spinning props usually flags and prop rifles. Um but you know it might be sabers or or other things. You see a color guard often in parades. You'll see it um with a band. The band's playing and the color guards spinning their flags.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Or you'll see it on a halftime show at a football game, usually a high school football game. Um there's also a uh kind of a winter season where the color guard teams compete in a circuit um with their creative programs, their artistic programs.

So I had loved doing that. It was dance and prop spinning and and it was doing that with a whole whole group of people to create a a feeling and a picture and a scene. So when I saw this fire performance department and all their classes, I just was like, "No way. I Yeah, I'm Yeah, I signed up for fire eating. I signed up fire." Like

I know. Light stuff. Light it up.

Yeah. Light that flag on fire. Oh, no. No. So anyway, I ended up taking those classes. I um

through that I found a um group of fire spinners in Oakland who were hosting spin jams, basically like Skillshare nights. And I started going to those regularly and found a whole new community which is really kind of like a subculture in general, but a subculture of Burning Man. You know, there's all different kinds of groups um at Burning Man. And of course, that led me into, you know, they were all going to Burning Man. They didn't have room in their camp, but one of the women in my um fire poi class, uh Kim, she said, "I'm interested in going. I'll go with you, too." And so the two of us You know, I have to say we were probably some of the best uh prepared people because we're both planners and organizers.

Uh we went to Burning Man together. I I was going to go alone and just show up, but uh it was nice to have somebody to go with. And

what year was that?

That was in 2008.

Okay.

Yeah. And um that's that's how I got to Burning Man. Um but really that whole thing that whole story. There's this poem and I really wish I could read it on air, but I don't I don't I don't think I can because it's copyrighted.

It's a it's a poem called Missing the Boat and it's by Naomi Shihab Nye and it's about this boat pulling up into the harbor outside your bedroom window. And it's, you know, flashing, waving its flags at you. It's flash honking its little horn. It's tooting its horn. It's saying, "Come, come with me."

Yeah.

And then she describes how, you know, but you thought you were going by train and so you spent all this time digging for tracks, looking for whatever the way you thought you were going to go. And so the the boat eventually kind of tires of you and pulls away at which point you realize you always loved the sea. And so I feel like that poem was very much I feel great grateful that the boat didn't pull away

that I found.

Well, you got on the boat, right?

I got on the boat.

It just took a lot of flag waving. It took a lot of, you know, tooting the horn.

It took an out right invitation that I ignored. So I I I guess that's I you know that's

well also using the analogy of the poem like instead of like going down like the rigid track where it's like you can't deviate you know it's just like well no I'm going to go on a more like exploratory thing where it's like there there is no track and like wherever it leads.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wherever it leads

also because like going through this you said like you graduated got a job and you were kind of like a little a drift and then you're just looking it almost seemed like like looking I mean like what was your life like back then like did you have like a a large support group or community or friends you know it's like it almost seemed like you were kind of like looking for connection to some degree right

yeah um in college you well growing up I had a wonderful group of friends um and I always felt connected to them. I also had a group of wonderful friends in college uh two of whom are my best friends today. I see them all the time. Uh and we all live about I don't know 10 minutes apart from each other.

Um so I I feel like I have my little close-knit, you know, tribe, if you will.

Um but yeah, one of the things that happened when I I after I graduated from college was I moved to Colorado. I I felt like I needed to shake things up. I didn't know I wasn't having any luck finding a job or finding a place to live. And I felt like I got to I got to do something different. And so I had always wanted to see Colorado. I threw everything in my car and drove off. And um I ended up in Vale, Colorado. which is a ski town, which was totally different from where I grew up in Southern California. And um I had a wonderful time. I ended up meeting my husband there. Um and but it's a very temporary kind of place like come and go. Transient. Yes. People come and go. And after my first year there,

I was like, "Great. I have all these wonderful friends." And then they all left.

Mhm.

I was like, "Oh, now I got to if I want to stay, I got to build another community." And I I realized, "Oh, yeah. I'm ready. I want to go back somewhere where I can kind of set some some more roots down and meet people." But yes, I think that I would everything I have really enjoyed doing was always with other people, not so much a solo pursuit which is interesting because I will share that I am in by nature an introvert. I need to have downtime away from people to recharge but boy do I love being around people when I have the energy and the you know I'm yeah so I think I was always kind of looking for that. I think people assume that they have that at work with some of their colleagues. I think that sometimes they they find it in different places. And so, yes, I think I was always looking for that. Um, one of the things that I did in college when I was getting really tired of having my nose in a book all the time, I was reading about life, not living it. Um, I went on this wilderness semester where I studied nature, philosophy, and religion. Mhm.

And it was going out and backpacking through different parts of the California wilderness while studying with a very small group of like maybe 10 or 12 of us from all different parts of the country.

And I really loved that. I mean, I loved that feeling of different people coming together around learning and in that case nature. Um and I think that that is something that I yeah I had always been kind of looking for and certainly Burning Man has that.

Mhm.

You can find your your community in Burning Man. Absolutely. And I say Burning Man meaning Black Rock City might be your place. I mean maybe it's a regional event. Maybe it's at a meetup in your local community.

It doesn't mean just like the big burn.

Yeah. Yeah. I I'm sure like in the beginning like in 1990 when you know Danger Rangers like scratching the line and you jumping over it's like Yeah. I mean maybe not even then you know I'm sure it was zone trip or whatever but like

people refer Burning Man was like yeah going to the Black Rock Desert but I mean now it's kind of more of a overall term right. I mean I always make distinction between when I say people it's like oh I'm going to black rock city you know versus you know and then Bernie man I'm just like oh that's the overall like the international community right

yeah

so yeah so you first go in 2008 you and your friend Kim right and then uh so how'd that go I mean uh in my mind it was like the dustiest year on record but you know uh I know There have been many dusty years. Um, we had a great time. We did not know what we were doing. We just Kim is um an amazing person. She is fearless and anything she sets her mind to, she can do. So, the two of us together really like embraced getting out there, looking around, experiencing things, talking to people. Um, and I I remember it was I think the night after the man burn. I mean, now it's so long ago and there have been so many burns. Um,

the a huge dust storm blew in and I remember we could not see it must have been after the temple burned because we couldn't see anything. Um, yeah, it was after the temple burn. We had a hard time even seeing people in front of us. You know, towards the end of the the week, the city kind of gets dark as darker and darker as people break down their camps.

Mhm.

And we got lost. I remember we both got very uh scared and I'm like, there's a fence around this thing. We can't wander off into the desert, you know, lost forever. We'll be okay. We'll be okay. But it took us a very long time to find our our tents and our car. And I remember and I somewhere I have a photo of it and I'm sure plenty of people have these photos. We look like ghosts. We took a photo of ourselves because we were just absolutely covered head to toe in dust.

Um and that is one of my I don't know one of my strongest memories of that. But really I had just a a a fantastic time and it was as you can imagine that was a transformational year for me. Um I think in part I can tell you the moment it really hit me

and it was after you know I hardly slept that first week. I was up all night all day. You know how that goes.

Especially when you're like I have to see it all. I have to do it all. I you know um and so by the time that the manburn was happening which was being delayed because of uh high winds, I was sitting and waiting for my friends who are fire spinners and all camp together to come out and be uh do their fire conclave performance as part of you know the conclave. And it was just endlessly windy. We were just tired of waiting. I was so tired, like over tired,

probably dehydrated, you know, all the things.

Mhm.

Not getting enough proper nutrition

or sleep. Yeah.

Or asleep.

And I remember being like, uh, I'm ready to go home. What am I doing here? Why did I come to this godforsaken place? What am I doing sitting here? I'm so dirty. I smell. And then all of a sudden, I looked across the the great circle and on the periphery there was this giant duck art car, huge. Um I I can't remember the name of it,

but it can't remember that. Yeah.

Yeah. This big yellow duck with like lasers shooting out of its eye. eyes and it had like what looked like a little mohawk on its head and on its back was this eggshaped cage that people were dancing in. And I remember and this is this is such the default world person in me at the time was like, "Oh my gosh, why would they spend so much money on that? There are so many that's just a waste of money and blah blah blah blah," you know. And then it was almost like that same little voice that said, "Hey, just pay attention." That same little voice kind of came in and said, "Because they could." And I understood that all of a sudden as you do not need to do things because they have a specific outcome or purpose.

You can do things because you feel compelled and driven to create those things in your life, especially not just for yourself, but for other people.

And I think that's part of the beauty of Burning Man is it it says it gives you permission and it says the world needs these things and they don't have to be practical. They need to be personal. They need to be from your heart. They need to be from your creative mind. They need the world needs more of that.

And that was when I it was almost like like in a cartoon the little light bulb went off in my head

or on in my head and I thought,

"Oh my god, oh my god,

this is crazy."

You mean I can do whatever I want? Like

wait a minute. So then that's the point where you're like, "Okay, now next year I'm going to do this."

Exactly. You know, Andy, it's like everybody goes their first year and then they come back the second year and they're like, "Ah, I got to I'm ready with all my ideas."

This must sound so strange to like outsiders when you come back and you're just like, "I I went and I got really dirty and and and I didn't sleep and and and I and you know, I didn't eat anything and I was really dusty and I almost died and you know, it's like and this horrible thing happened, that horrible thing happened, but you know what? Next year I'm going back and I'm going to make this crazy thing." And they'd be like, "What happened to you?"

What happened? Well, and you know, my husband didn't come the first year. He didn't want to go. He was like, and you know, he's like, "What is this crazy thing?" And um

Did you talk his ear off after you came out?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Kim and I both did. We We just were like buzzing with I don't know, crackling energy creep.

You think like he joined a cult or something? Like, whoa, what happened? Like

I think he kind of saw it as like what the media likes to portrayed as sex, drug, rock and roll, you know, and and

I was on this like just very nice straight and narrow path. So to go to something like this seemed maybe out of character when I never felt like it was really out of character. But um

yeah, well it's kind of almost like Bernie man is like a sandbox as a permission structure for you to kind of like

like I've talked with so many guests about and they they bring this up too, you know. It's like you can feel free to, you know, be like, "Oh, experiment around like with art." Like, "Oh, I I never thought of myself as an artist or or people experiment with like their their gender fluidity or or you know, or or whatever, you know, certain things that people are struggling with in the in the rest of the world." Whereas like Burning Man, it's just kind of like

feel free go ahead like there's no judgment, you know, like it's like I can do that.

Yeah. I think it really

try it out.

Yeah. Like aside from it being a permission and And I think it also lets people, you know, if you're into or or have, you know, learned anything about like Yung, Carl Jung, the U

like I think it really lets you explore your shadow side. Not that that that's a dark side,

but that it lets you

undiscovered.

Yeah. The parts that you bury deep inside you that you're like, "Oh, I don't want anyone to know these are here." Because there's a a a requirement from society to keep, you know, a certain mask on.

Down. Yeah.

Yeah. And and so that I think I think is just healthy. I think it's healthy to let that out.

Well, then also like with the regional network and just different cultures around the world, I'm sure like there's there's definitely some cultures out there where just like, "Oh, that's like a rad like taboo or something.

And there are regions that I'm aware of that like the local culture can can make things a challenge. For example, I know in some of the um southern states in the United States, it is very hard for regional events to become official regional events because um usually not always but most of the time official regional events need to invite children under 18 in. It's it's not exclusive. Everybody is invited.

Yeah.

Um but a lot of regional events are like Yeah, you can be nude if you want. There is nudity allowed.

Well, some of those municipalities

it's not okay to be exposing yourself in front of

minors and so how do you reconcile that I think that that makes it a challenge

and so um you know I can understand

uh yeah I can understand that it's a you that's where some of the principles also come together where you know there's your radical self-expression but

as long as it's not harming somebody else

and so I think

all of that has to come into play and be discussed and figured out

even if it's like the the members of the group it's like oh no we're not harming but then it's like an outside like the the city and county or whatever it's like oh no we have a law on the statute and we say that you're being harmed like what what you know like Yeah.

So, I mean, I I think it's important absolutely to respect your local cities and work with them. We encourage that always.

Um to develop relationships with your local city. Um yeah, because

well, there's a million different ways to be a burner, right? I mean, absolutely.

And like we said, like the petri dishes of like the different regionals like oh yeah, they each have their own individual like spice and flavor and they come up with their own like original ideas of like how to do things like it doesn't have to be the cookie cutter, you know, it's like no, you must do a multi-day event. It has greeters and ticket and gate and blah blah blah,

right? No. Um, yeah. I mean, there are all kinds of ways to to create community. Um, you know, Andy, you've done it.

Oh, yeah.

You've helped people do it. You know, sharing meals and socializing. There's holding, you know, newcomer, newbie events for people who are curious. There's creating art together. There's skillsharing. Maybe it's making something a piece of art. Maybe it's, you know, manufacturing. I I don't want to say manufacturing, but designing and building.

Creating

creating some kind of a a structure for for your camp. Maybe, you know, there's a lot of regions come together and do they clean up beaches, they clean up parks, they practice leave no trace in the communities where they are. Um, some hold town halls and make decisions together as communities.

Um, yeah, I just there are so many different ways. In fact, for anybody who wants to to take, you know, create community in their own area, their own uh city. We do have a um list of 10 principled uh events uh not events, activities that people can do that build community. It's on the Burning Man website under if you look for the regional network, um it is under the regional network section and there are project guides like how to start a really really free market. Um how to um create disaster packs. All kinds of ideas for you know gosh all the different ways you can get people to come together and do things in the spirit of the 10 principles.

That's a resource. You don't have to be a burner to even use that but M

certainly can.

Yeah. Yeah. So, how do you get from uh and you and Kim annoying your husband after you get back first to to here

to here to

Yeah. Yeah. So, that was 2008. I mean, did you go back like every year and then like when did you start volunteering or how did you get involved?

Yeah. So, good point. Um I yes started to go back every year Um I ended up becoming one of the key organizers of a theme camp. Um it's gone by many names. Uh it started out I think as object manipulation camp and then it became Vulcan Town and then it became I think Vulcan Empire. Anyway, it was a fire spinning camp where we offered classes every day throughout the day and ran a fire jam and Um, I became I auditioned for with a conclave and and participated in fire conclave which I don't know if people think always of that as being a volunteer role but it takes a lot of time and energy

coordination to really pull off something out there in that we feel like is art that we're sharing with the community. So that was another way Um, yeah, over time I've volunteered with Arctica. I love being an ice slinger. I love it. It's a lot of fun. And, um, I've also been a temple guardian.

Oh.

Um, which is a very very important role in my mind. Um, and I learned some very interesting things doing that. Um, I've also

hard like just like emotionally temple guardian.

Well, For me, it's really kind of what they call holding space is, you know, making sure that people have the space they need to um to process the emotions that they're going through. Um some of it is, you know, hey, please don't ride your bike through the temple or hey, can you not light up your cigarette right here by this you know, fuel or whatever. But I mean,

uh, some of it, a lot of it is just making sure that people are doing okay and that nobody looks extremely distressed or or might need some kind of intervention. I will say that I had a really interesting experience the first time I was a temple guardian where I was out there looking around at night watching for people who looked really in distress and this man came up to me and he started talking and just we were chitchatting but I was trying to also stay very focused on

I'm busy.

Yeah. Aware of my environment and other people in it and

boy he talked and talked and it turns out he was telling me about this invention he made that was like some kind of fitness invention shaped like a heart that you held on to. and he talked about this for a long time and I I was like I I don't what is going on here and then all of a sudden he started I realized oh he's talking about how he had business partners who eventually rested away the the company from him and they kind of took away or filed the patent for this device without him. So that he lost the device, he lost the company, and he had nothing. And I realized, oh, here I am looking around for people who need help. And and this guy is grieving.

Yeah.

It just wasn't in the form that I thought I would see grieving being done in.

Kind of like missing the boat.

You don't often hear about that, you know? It's just it's like I mean, people grieve for like a parent or a child. or whatever, but it's just like what about your dream?

What about your dream? Yeah.

So, you know, then I realized, oh, there are so many ways that people come to the temple and release things.

Yeah. Never even thought about that. Yeah. Yeah.

It was an aha moment for me.

Huh. Wow. So, um, so how did you get into like working for for for Bernie? Um, so I let's see. I was, you know, working my regular job and I saw a posting for a in the Jack Rabbit Speaks for a administrative role and I thought, "Oh my gosh, how cool would it be to to to know to impact even more people by helping more people experience Burning Man, I'm I'm going to apply. So, I did.

It wasn't I didn't get the role,

but I got contacted by uh the people operations team.

Um I don't know, maybe six months later,

and they said, "We have two roles we're hiring for. Do you want to come in and interview for one or both?" And so I did, and I met both the managers of those teams and Neither one felt like the right fit for for either of us really.

And so that didn't come to fruition. And I didn't really think much about it again. And then I would say maybe a year later I get this email out of the blue from people operations saying we have a new role with the new nonprofit Burning Man project nonprofit that we think is finally the right place for you.

So, I came in and interviewed and that was how I got involved. It was me and Heather White uh who was the program manager at the time and is now the COO of Burning Man project.

The two of us were brought on as the first two um official employees, I guess, of the nonprofit which was formed in 2011. And this was I think the very maybe the end of 2011 or the start of 2012, I came aboard with her and we essentially I mean that was basically taking we basically created like the the how how would I describe it? Like the systems and the programs that would eventually that would kind of operationalize the nonprofit. So like a lot of what I did was I worked with the board of directors. I gosh we did set up HR systems. I remember um working to figure out how are we going to acknowledge donors? What's the process there? Um Oh my goodness.

So, sort of professionalizing as a nonprofit versus like a LLC. Yeah.

Yeah. And a lot of what we were doing was setting getting everything in place for the nonprofit to become the parent of the LLC because they were separate legal entities at that point.

Mhm.

And so, you know, when I talk about it, I'm like, it's not all like this sexy stuff like, oh, I was helping, you know, put art on the apply and out in the world, but I was doing very meaningful to me work. Um,

well, it's necessary work. I mean, also if you look at like what happened in like the change in like in 96, you know, when that was like a dividing line between like the the cacophony days of like, oh, we're just a group of people going to go out and do our funky thing out in the desert versus, you know, it's like, well, now this has kind of crossed the threshold and it's like, if you want this to continue and and Larry That was like the magic of Larry's like he, you know, cheerleaded this whole thing and he was like, "No, we're going to continue." Like, "Yes, people died. Yes, all this crazy stuff." Like, "Yes, all these people left, but like, you know what? We're going to do this." And you know, and he like I don't know. Well, well, he I don't know if he himself, but you know, like people like like Marian and Harley and like people like came together and were like, "Okay, we're going to make this happen." You know, but it's like have to like and I remember there was I was just seeing this interview with like uh John Law, you know, and it's and he was just like well it's like if you want this to continue it's like it has like like I'm not interested in like doing some sort of like business or professional thing which like well that's what you need to do. It's like you have to interface with the Bureau of Land Management, you have to get permits and you have to get insurance, you have to deal with vendors, you know, it's not like, you know, oh this this kind of subculture thing, you know, it's like let's walk through sewers, you know, like,

right? And I You know, there's always the tension of the past kind of looking back and looking forward. And I think a lot of times I think a lot of times people get very nostalgic for how something was. Um, you know, like burners are wonderful. passionate people and very protective of the culture. And I think, you know, depending on who you ask, nearly everybody will eventually says, "Oh, Burning Man was better before." Like Andy, do you have

Oh, yeah. Everybody

I have a favorite year or two, you know.

Um, but who is that? There's a Greek philosopher, some very ient guy who kind of figured out a pretty universal truth

that the only constant is change and I think you know Burning Man has always changed and people will have always had feelings about those changes. So yeah I you know when I watched for example the man Will Burn I'm like wow how cool would it have been to be there when it was just like anarchy crazy, you know, which you got to experience that.

Yeah, it was very smoky.

Smoky, you know. I'm like,

we're burning like polyester couches and stuff. It was the smell of burnt plastic all the time. Like, is that so romantic, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I think nostalgia isn't just like remembering the past. It's remembering the past through feelings attached to it

and romanticizing it. kind of but also like everything changes but also something I learned after taking 13 years and coming off back and just like the the core like there so much of it is still the same you know it's just like the the core you know like what people I think keep coming back for it's like it's there's always been there and I think it always will continue to be there like I mean how people express themselves or this or that and then like might might change like rules might change you know but the core of like it's being like community and like we're saying this kind of permission structure, this sandbox where you can kind of come and like wow and explore yourself. I mean it's like that's that's still there.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

I I do think it's still there and that is what I think cultural stewardship is is trying I think it travels through people. It doesn't necessarily travel through

top down higher.

Yeah. No. Oh no. And so I think as long as that the culture is being transmitted through people over time, that's where you get that through line. That's where you get the 10 principles at the the the base,

the heart of Burning Man culture.

And I'm really grateful to Larry for laying those out for the regional to help the regional network, but really to help everybody,

even if it You know, I'm sure some of the very earliest people who uh started Burning Man, you know, I don't know. Maybe they were like 10 principles. This sounds like dogma, you know, or something like that. I I don't know. I'm I'm guessing. Uh

well, I think a lot of people like the early years it's like the all these the concepts were just kind of floating in the air and like I think maybe they just kind of like them as sort of like oddshaped clouds in the sky rather than like you know un stone tablets in front of your face,

you know, they're just like I was like it's the same thing, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. So for you, you said you so you grew up in LA, right? You went to college in Berkeley. So

So what did you study and what was your your job like? What were you doing? So that where like Burning Band was like like looking like ah you got great experience. We want to hire you like

um Um well you know uh I studied English literature so that was my I love the art of literature. I also love music very very much. Um but that was kind of what I wanted to do was and so obviously I learned a lot of critical thinking. I learned a lot of writing uh skills. Um and when I when I ended up I most of my career has been spent gosh all over different types of organizations. I've worked for oh gosh uh I've worked for entertainment techn in entertainment technology in financial technology in um healthc care in um insurance uh like all over over the place because my skills have been transferable and I have mostly worked in a um kind of right hand to executives function. The title would be executive assistant but it was like a lot of project management and a lot of uh kind of helping move strategic goals forward.

Um and So I think what I've been told in the past for why I was brought in or what it why it made sense for me to come in and teach uh teach um serve as an employee of Burning Man is because I had worked with boards before boards of directors. Um I had uh also been you know, managed projects and I had also um been with a variety of organizations, but especially I worked for a lot of my early career was with Dolby Laboratories, the audio tech company.

Um, and I had assisted the CEO through most of that. And we went from a very small organization when I started started I think around 150 employees in a couple of offices to by the time I left it was like I don't know how many 20 offices around the world and we had gone through an initial public offering so we had gone from being a privately held organization to one traded on the the public stock exchange

which really changes the operations and the a little bit the culture of of an organization. And so I knew how I had seen an organization go through a big big big change. And I think that was part of the appeal in having me aboard is because that can be a really rocky time and it there can be a lot of upheaval. You know, people have a hard time with change and even when it's a good change, It's change.

Oh yeah.

And so I think that was part of the appeal was, you know, I had some experience with that. And I will tell you that the early days, at least my experience of the of Burning Man project, becoming a nonprofit and then eventually becoming the parent of Black Rock City. That that I think that that was a really really uncomfortable time for many people even though it it the outcomes I think are were everybody wanted even if they didn't know it yet.

Oh yeah.

So I think that's how it happened. Um and then I came back actually I I left Burning Man.

Um I think it's important you know

I left in 2015. I wanted to pursue do some other things. I was a little bit crispy from from going through, you know, when you work for a mission-driven nonprofit, it can it will consume as much of you as you let it. And I think let it consume a lot of me.

And so I wanted to kind of take a step back for a little bit. And uh that was a hard decision to make. Um and so I left and did some other things. Um and then Uh, I found myself laid off from a startup that was running out of funds and I reached out just socially to uh, you know, a co a former co-orker at Burning Man

who mentioned, hey, we need a temp

with the regional network. There's some change going on. And I thought, oh yeah, I'd be delighted to help. So that's kind of how it happened and then it turned into can you please would you be interested in staying?

Can you do more?

Absolutely. I was like okay within reason, right? Um and uh one of the things that I was so excited about was working the first time at Burning Man. A lot of what we were trying to do was try test out different programs and figure out well what what does it look like to bring Burning Man culture out into the world as this new nonprofit? And I was always looking across the room at like Megs and Iris, Meg, Megan Retiganiano and Iris doing all this stuff around regionals and reg the regional network. And I thought

that that's they're already doing it. That's that's what it is. And um I also, you know, uh burners without borders was there and I was like, "Wait, wait, wait, they're doing it.

They're out in the world sharing the culture through mutual aid um and civic good." And uh I thought, gosh, how cool that they're doing all this now, you know, and and now we're a program of the the um the nonprofit. So, this is more officially now how

the nonprofit is fulfilling its mission in the world. So I'm delighted to be a part of it and I I absolutely am inspired every day by the regional contacts and a variety of their community members who are making beautiful connections and creations together all the time.

It's it's It's hard to ever wake up and not want to come to work. I want to

That's a great feeling. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. When you get to the point of just like, what am I doing here?

Right.

That's when you're like, "Oh, let me try something different." So, all right. Well, we should probably move on to our last question. Um, so yeah, what is the the impact of Bernie man on your life?

The impact. It's

a small question.

So many things. Um, I mean I am energized by helping other people succeed. So um I don't think I mentioned that I did become a fire performance instructor at the Crucible and so I did that for I did it for I just retired so like 15 years 16 18 something like that and um One of the key moments for me in doing that was uh very early on there was this in one class it was a fire poi class and for those who don't know what that is it's it's two wicks on the end of chains and you swing them in patterns to music and anyway um this the last night uh the class lit up all their gear We practice fire safety and go through all of that and then they practice with fire and one of the quietest women in the class and it was men and women but the this quiet woman got out there. She was the last to go. She's she did a beautiful job and she walked up to me because I had the you know duvatine the wet towel to put it out her gear out and she said Wow, I feel powerful. And I was like, yes, I so being a part of Burning Man is helping people with their sense of agency. Like I love, we already talked a little bit about it, is helping more people experience that. Even if I'm doing it for far away kind of behind the scenes. I know that that's the final outcome. Um, and so that in a way gave me a really I don't want to say it gave me a sense of purpose, but it gives me an outlet like a very clear outlet for that.

I think it's also Burning Man has totally expanded my world. Um, you know, I I'm connected now to people from dozens of countries and culture. and backgrounds and um I really think that that influences how I think about things much more that it's not um I don't just think of it working with an international group of people even from different parts of the US you I've realized like how sometimes my world view was more narrow and it's really opened it up and I I am really grateful for that. Um, I also think that Burning Man has totally reinforced my belief that, and I'm going to air quote this, ordinary people can create extraordinary things. I mean, God, that just makes my heart pulse with excitement. Um, you know, I just whether it's starting a maker space or organizing a cleanup or creating an art fundraiser or welcoming people in uh holding some neighborhood concert whatever it might be. I just love that in a world that can often feel so disconnected and so sometimes adversarial like

people are I don't know.

Well, also sometimes it seems like the world is kind of like a wet bl can't get like there's always people telling you like it's like no you can't do that no don't even try no that's outside the norm like it's like you want to be ordinary you don't want to be different you know

and I have definitely come to value participation over consumption I a lot of people will ask me well who don't know what burning man is well okay so it's like It's like a music festival. And I'm like,

"Yeah, where are the vendors? Where's the t-shirt?"

Right? You know, where do you get your food? Will you bring it? And and I I try to explain it. Here's what we do. The organization sets out, you know, some basic structure. The container uh some lays out some streets so maybe you don't get lost. Has some basic things like sanitation,

emergency services, right? Things like that. And then I try to explain if you come to Burning Man Black Rock City or your regional event and you throw down a tent and you pull out your lawn chair and you plunk yourself down in it and say, "Entertain me." Imagine if 80,000 people do that. That is what the event will be. Do you really want that kind of an event? I don't. Like let let yourself let your freak flag fly or, you know, let your creative wizard out of your brain and uh and and engage with people. And uh I just feel like um that is so important in a world that is so commodified where every every time I feel like I leave the house, somebody's trying to not even leave the house. It's like invad ive in the house trying to sell me something or advertise something or or part me from my dollar.

Mhm.

And I just feel like no no no participation and and co-creation is so much more powerful.

Oh yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

All right. Well, we've been about hour and 18 minutes of the uh any plugs or any like um if anyone wants to like reach you, do you like uh

Oh, um well, I have a LinkedIn profile. You're welcome to look me up at Laura Hopwood. H O P W O D. Um I can also be reached through the email address regional-networkingman.org. Um I would encourage people to explore the regional network section of the burningman.org website

where you can find a map of all the regions in the network and learn about what's going on in your community and how to reach your regional contacts who can then help you um find a way in or or find a way to participate. in a makes sense for you.

Um,

I would also encourage people to look at the Burners Without Borders website if you're like, "Hey, I don't know. I I Some people feel like, oh, the social side of things can feel a little intimidating." Burners Without Borders is a great way to work on projects that help others um, and meeting people that way. Same thing with the regional network, but theirs are very civic. minded. Um, and I would say if you are a new burner or an actually or a seasoned burner and you want to help like bridge new um bring help help bring along younger burners who are new to check out Rising Sparks. Um, I think one of the most important things about culture, Burning Man culture in particular, is that you need to have and bring in and invite in new generations

to be a part of it. Because when you're gone, they're the ones who will carry it on. Just like we are carrying it on, the culture on for the people who came before us. And so I I you know I think caring for the culture means thinking about not not the past through nostalgia but inviting new generations in to create the new version of it going forward with that throughine like you and I talked about.

Oh yeah.

Centered around the 10 principles.

So Rising Sparks is a group of of younger burners. It's intergenerational. I should say, but um people who are working to help transmit that culture um across generations moving forward for

more like people who are new to Burning Man. They could be of any age like

Yeah. Any age is fine. I don't want to say younger. I want to say intergenerational but newer.

Yeah.

So dying embers like me can help the rising sparks.

That that makes that you and me know, Danny.

Yeah. No, I remember was it last year went to the the regionals mixer and someone at the with like the the drinks table like, "Oh, I'm with the rising sparks." And I was just like, "I'm a dying ember." She was like, "Oh, don't don't say that."

No.

Yeah. It's like, "Well, you know, it's with my last little bit of heat, I can help you, Spark, and you can go and take over. for me, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, don't don't it doesn't have to be as you know, one day or one week out of the year. Burning Man can be every day if you let it.

Well, I think Burn like like everyone keeps talking about like it is transformational, right? I mean, unless unless it's like I mean out of the million or so people who've been to Black Rock City or or any of the regional events over all these years, I'm sure it's more than that now. you know, um I'm sure there's a fair amount of like bucket list people who are just kind of like, oh yeah, I did it one time and whatever, you know, but that's not exactly the audience from my this show or what you're doing organization or anybody, you know, like it's like, yeah, there's some people who just kind of consume and then leave, you know, but that's not the the standard participant, right?

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, there probably are people who Well, we know there people who do that. I think um and I know we're trying to wrap up here, but I do want to share a quick story if I have a moment

or you can edit this however you like,

but um

there was a number of years ago I it was Sunday morning after the man burn. I was exhausted again, end of week and I had to be up early in the everywhere pavilion which which was sort of this big structure along the esplenade early in the morning with some volunteers to talk to anybody who came through and had questions about burning year round and what that looked like. And this young kid in his I'd say early 20s with like shorts, a tea, and a ball cap came strolling up and said, "Hey, you know, do you know where I can charge my cell phone?" And I was pretty crispy uh at that time. I ready to go. But I was like, "No, no, no." I said, "Well, you know, really, you should bring your own

way to do that." And no, we don't have anything for that. And he looked over my shoulder and he goes, "Wait, what about that outlet there?" And it was an outlet powering the lights to the structure. And I said, "You know, I could have been a jerk." And said,

"It's gonna cost you, kid." Like,

yeah.

So, I said, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come plug in. So he did. We ended up he stayed and we talked and he was very engaging

and he he said,

"Oh, I'm here following a big DJ and this is the end of his, you know, tour." And I was like, "Do that's not why you come to Burning Man." And um and he said, "Yeah, I didn't know what Burning Man was." And he goes, "When I first got here, everyone was so nice. and happy that I thought they were all maybe just on drugs. Like at this point I'm like, "Oh my god, hold it in, Laura. Hold it in." And uh and he said, "But then I realized, no, people are just really nice and happy here." And so as we talked more about, you know, what is Burning Man, what's the culture, what are the 10 principles, etc., etc., he he goes, "Well, I think he finally said, "Well, I think my um phone's probably charged enough now. So he picked it up and he goes, "So we had talked about how it's the city is run by volunteers. So much volunteerism." And he goes, "Well, what about volunteering?" And I said, "Yeah, you know, you can do that if you come back." And he goes, "No, what about right now?"

Oh.

And I was like, "What? You've been up all You said you've been up all night. You've been Wait, what?"

And so he goes, Yeah, I mean I want to help now.

And I said, "Okay, well, let me walk you to the Vspot, the volunteer spot." And so I walked him over there and he struck up a conversation with them. And I'm assuming that they placed him, you know, help with a team that needed help. And so I guess my whole point in this story is when you ask, you know, there are people who come and put it just on their bucket list. Maybe they do who and I think there's, you know, a tendency to be frustrated with those people, but you never know if they're going to be transformed and become part of the culture. You'd never know. And so I think that is

it's okay if it's on your bucket list. Come and experience it and you might be transformed.

I think quite a lot of people like like they they at first go because of like the spectacle, you know, because you know, but then like they go and they experience it and then it's like, huh, you know, but I always say people come for the spectacle, but they come back like for the community.

Yep. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, be nice to those those burners out there who who might not yet be burners the way you want them to be

burners. Or if they're making an ask for something like they want to charge their phone, look at that as like an opportunity. It's like, okay, this is the hook I'm going to get. So, it's like this is the I'll give you electricity, but that's the, you know, and how you're going to pay for that is you're going to listen to me talk about community and then you're going to walk away from here wanting to volunteer.

Yep.

Never know. You never know.

Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful interview,

Andy.

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