EP 93 Stephen Payne

Episode 93 with Stephen Payne is out now! Meet Stephen Payne, a filmmaker who documented the Burning Man festival during its formative years in the early 2000s. The conversation highlights the logistical and artistic challenges of early independent filmmaking in the desert, specifically Payne’s rapid process of shooting and editing the film Burn Baby Burn on a tight deadline. Beyond the technical history, his story explores the evolution of the festival’s culture, contrasting the lawless, improvisational nature of the past with the more regulated, corporate-influenced presence of modern media. He relates the profound personal impact of the Burning Man experience, which Payne credits with fostering the confidence, resourcefulness, and adventurous spirit that led him to his current life on a boat in Malta.

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Burn Baby Burn - Remastered

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Transcript

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama drama drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. the famous documentarian. No, that Andy. Today our guest is Stephen Payne. Welcome, Stephen.

Hi. Hi. How are you?

So, Stephen, you you made a couple of Birdie Man movies, right? So, one was Burn Baby Burn.

Yeah.

Uh, was that in Well, you filmed in 2000 and 2001, but when

I filmed it in 2000.

2000.

No, no, I filmed it in 2001. I I first attended in 2000 and then I I'm like, I'm a filmmaker. I should film it because no one else was filming it at that time because I it's, you know, it's not an easy place to film.

Yeah.

Cameras are expensive and and so and this is we're shooting. I'm shooting onto tape as well. So, you got to be very careful with all the dust.

But I just had a little um little camcorder and um I put a proper microphone on it because you got to get good audio.

Yeah. And I I and then I just I went and filmed it.

Yeah. No, as I recently found out last year, it's um it's kind of hard to get good audio on the plier, especially like when it's windy.

It's dead easy. It's dead easy.

Yeah.

A shotgun mic and you point it at the person's mouth and they got the the microphone needs to be between 18 and 24 in away from their mouth and you'll get good audio.

It was a cheap microphone. It was like a $15 microphone.

Wow.

Nothing special.

Microphone in 2001. Really? And you'd have like a wind sock or anything on it or

um Well, it's got a little foam thing on it. Yeah. Just that.

But was nothing special. Um worked great, but you just have to make sure that it's pointing straight at their face.

So, back then in 2001, like you said, like was there really anyone like filming Burning Man or No,

that's what I thought. I looked around and I someone need to document this, you know, it's like this is this is crazy. And being a filmmaker, I'm like,

but I mean, did the the organization like even have I mean, because now there's there's a whole like comm's team and you have to get like all sorts of like permission, you know, like

like right as we're t recording now, it's July 11th, uh, 26. Um, and like the HBO, you know, what this this HBO like four-part documentary just like came out a couple days ago and

yeah,

you know, they had like a whole team out there. They've been filming for like four years.

I I know I Terry Pratt is a friend of mine. He was one of the he's the main camera guy on it.

Um

I I know I have mixed feelings about it because mine wasn't for broadcast.

Yeah.

Mine was to document the thing and for the people who actually go to Burning Man and go, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, look." You know, it was quite a small I mean, I sold a couple of thousand copies of it.

Oh, really?

Um, yeah. On on VHS.

That's a collector's item now.

I did a ton of um like screenings at different places um in Reno and even New York and um where else people would organize screenings and I just show up if I could

and then I organized a little West Coast tour and stuff. It's great fun. Really good fun.

Yeah. So, for the listeners and viewers, um I will have the the link for it's it's called Burn Baby Burn, right?

Yeah. I hated that name, but I had to come up with a name. And um here's the funny thing. I'll get a little background here.

Yeah.

Um I went to Burning Man and I'm like, "All right, I need to put a deadline on this thing, otherwise I'll just be editing it forever." So, I booked a cinema before I left for Burning Man. Not many filmmakers are going to book a cinema to show their film and pay for it before they even rolled camera, you know? It's like, wow. So, I booked the cinema and I wanted to book it for two weeks away from when we got back,

but that weekend was busy. And he goes, "Well, I mean, I knew the guy. It was at the um the LA Film School. They got a really nice cinema there, like a full-on cinema, like 300 seats.

And um He's like, "Yeah, but I can I can squeeze you in the week before." I'm like, "So, okay,

I can do that. I'm a good editor. I can bash it out." And again, it's like on tape, so you're having to like play stuff onto the hard drive rather than copy and drag, you know, copy and paste, rather.

So, um,

it takes longer. You know, I only shot 11 hours because because I I knew that I wasn't going to have a lot of time to go through the footage. So, you just shoot what you shoot. And there's an old BBC thing where you shoot one hour, you shoot one hour, sorry, you shoot 15 hours worth for one hour of television, but that's because they were shooting on film. I shot 11 hours for one hour of film, which is really good.

That's pretty good.

Not that tapes are expensive, but I just I just knew I wasn't going to have time to to go through it all. So, I

You didn't build in any time for like like promotions or or getting the word out?

No, no, no, no. I I just um Yeah, because this is almost before the internet.

Yeah. Well, I mean, how many people showed up for that that cinema for a year?

It's a good number. Like 200.

I told people at Burning Man, I'm like, "Yeah, here I got a little card made up. They're going to do a screening of this film. You'll see yourself." We had I had people arriving from the plier who show showed up at the cinema before they'd even gone home to shower.

Wow. Wow. That's hilarious.

Yeah. I stayed because here's the thing. Burning Man's all about the man burning. And I know the temple's important, but it didn't make sense to shoot it for the film because it's like here's the man burning. Yay. Big man burning. And here's the temple burn. Like doesn't make sense as a story. So I'm like

I think that was the first year of the temple too, right?

No, they've done it before.

Oh, yeah.

Definitely done it before. They they I don't remember.

Yeah,

there was a temple the first year I went, but um I I honestly You're asking me to think back 26 years now. So, good luck with that.

So, I um yeah, I I filmed on a Saturday night, maned. Um I went to sleep for a bit. I woke up early. me and started driving back. And I got back to Los Angeles at about 5:30, 6:00 on the Sunday.

Wow.

And started editing. I I digitized all the stuff, went to sleep, and then woke up and edited Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Friday, I just went through and just tweaked the little bits and then rolled it off. Took the tape to the cinema on the Saturday and they streamed it. It was and it was great. It was really good and it hasn't changed since. I haven't changed anything in the film that cuz I'm lazy basically.

Something good. I think it's really good. It tells a story and um I you asked earlier something about permissions.

Yeah.

So I No, I didn't know anything.

I just showed up with a camera and and shot the thing.

So like all those people you interviewed like you just kind of just rolled up with a camera and was like, "Hey, can I talk to Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Yeah.

Wow. Because nowadays at Brady Bandits is like if you're even taking a picture of anything, they're like anyone within like a 100 feet, you need to like go ask them if you can get permission.

That's all b*******. That's absolute b*******. And I've I've um you because it's not possible

legally. Wow. Yeah.

No. No. Legally, no. b*******. Absolutely not. You can take a photograph, people in the background. Tough. That's it.

I think it was beyond certain distance. If they're like right there, then maybe

they're featured in the picture. You're kind of just gonna say, "Is it okay if I take your picture?"

Especially if there's no nudity. I I I didn't shoot any any nudity. There's nudity involved. It's totally different thing. So, I didn't shoot nudity.

There's not as much nudity of man as you'd think.

Not anymore. People dressed a bit more. Anyway, um so, so I filmed it, edited it, screened it and a couple of days afterwards I got a call. It's like from um Jim Graham.

Oh yeah, I remember him. Yeah.

Yeah. And he was like, "Yeah, are you paying?" I'm like, "Yeah." He goes, "Yeah. Um Marian wants a word with you."

I'm like, "Sure."

Okay.

And she goes, "Hi. Um yeah, that Marion here. Um I do the media for for B Burning Man. Um, I hear you made a film about Burning Man.

Yep. Everybody screamed.

Yeah. She goes, "And I heard you at a screening on on Saturday night." I'm like, "Yep." She goes, "You know, you're supposed to get permission, don't you?" And I'm like, "What?"

Well, I'll do that now.

So, just All right. All right. Here's the deal. Just send me six tapes. Don't screen it. Don't do anything with it. send me six tapes and we'll um take a look at it. So she I send it up, FedEx it up to her. Couple of days later she calls me back. She's really lovely and she's always been great to deal with and she goes, "Well, Penny, I have to say you've gone about this entirely the wrong way, but it's easily the best film I've seen about any festival ever. I love it. It's really great. So totally give you permission. Now you make any money out of it, we'd like 10%. It's towards the arts. I'm like, "No problem."

Mhm.

Um and that was that that was the that was the deal. And so I um I went about screening it all over the place, any place I could. And I did a screening at Cell Space. I don't think Cell Space is there anymore on Brian.

Yeah, I don't think so.

And um it uh all the Burman crew came in. Lar Larry came down, Marian came down, all the staff. Well, I say all the staff. There was about 10 of them at that time.

Yeah. as big as it is now. Yeah.

And uh Yeah, it was a really good screening. Not

Yeah. Well, I gotta say it's like because I I just I watched it because I remember watching it like I think like years and years ago like because I I watched it again the other night and and Yeah. And it totally like brought back memories. But the one thing that just kind of struck there's a lot of things that that struck me, but like what an amazing time capsule it is because I mean I'm sure like people like watch ing it nowadays. They're I mean some parts I think they would just be horrified, you know, like I remember there's this one part you were interviewing these two women and they were just like yeah you see the most crazy incredible things here and they were like and there was this man and the man had a vagina. Nowadays people be like oh yeah you know that's that's a trans person you know but they were just like blown away or where just was just like oh my god here's this crazy thing it's a man with a like

vagina. It was an artistic vagina. We're just making that clear.

Oh. Oh, it wasn't like a real person.

No.

Oh, okay. Cuz the way they were talking about it, I was like, "Haven't you ever heard of that before?" Yeah.

Yeah. Um I stayed in touch with a few people in the film.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Well, I made sure I got their their information and when I did screenings, I'd invite them down and stuff. So, um quite a few people, not everybody.

Would you ever think of doing a uh a 26 year later sequel like Burn Again Baby?

26 years later. Um

25.

I don't know. I mean, I did Thursday, which is the other Burning Man film.

And I think two Burning Man films is is enough.

Um

because what what angle? And there's other people have done it now.

Well, no, the angle would be just be like 25 years later, Ian is just like, you know, it's like, oh, when you talk to them, it's like, oh, they just got out of the car.

I'd have to track down the people who were in the film.

That'd be hard. Yeah.

Just No, it would just be hard work. And if you knew me, you'd be like, "Yeah, it's not going to happen." So, um, I mean, I it's what it is. It's standalone. I mean, I I used a bunch of I used a song by Metallica.

Yeah.

Um and I know that they've seen the film.

Okay.

I never heard from

but I didn't get permission to use the song

because I wasn't expecting to do anything with it really, you know.

Yeah. Because

Metallica Metallica is kind of well known for like judiciously policing their intellectual property, right?

They are. But they just look that I mean I don't know but I know someone who's working with them in the studio and he said I I was I showed it to him and he goes f****** Metallica. Can I get can I show them it? I'm like yeah absolutely. So he showed him I gave him a VHS and they liked it. They thought it was great. That was that you know it wasn't like he would not be doing this. No, no, no. They're good guys. I mean I I hadn't met James but I'd met Lars a couple of times. They're nice people. you know.

Have they gone to Burning Man?

No.

Um, and then I used a song by Underworld and I I think someone I know sent them a copy of it as well.

I didn't hear anything,

you know. So, I mean, maybe if it was like some like large commercial success or something, you know, they would have come after you or something, but

yeah.

So, how did you you even like a hear? What was the first time you even heard of Burning Man? Like what what kind of got you into this?

I was working at a company called Lobe TV and um I was like the the overnight news editor

and there was a little crossover period between the the night people coming in and day people leaving. And one of the guys who worked in the graphics department was a guy called Oz. And uh he is like, "Yeah, I won't be here next week. I'm going to Burning Man. And I'm like, "What's that?" He goes, "Google it." And I'm like, "What's Google?" You know,

this way back when, we're talking way back when.

Yeah.

And um I looked at it. I looked at I did find it on the interwebs. I found it. I'm like, "That looks kind of interesting. This is a bunch of pictures." And I'm like, "Huh? H." So I go in the next day and I go to the the actual like guy who's running the company. I said, you know, you were said I was a useless idiot. You didn't really need me. He goes, "Oh, yeah. I remember that. Good job." Yeah. I'm like, "Well, I won't be in next week. I'm I won't be in tomorrow. Actually, I'll be back in on Monday. I'm I'm going to um I've got to go to Burning Man." And so I I just I I rented a car and drove to Burning Man. Now,

by yourself?

No, I actually I went on Craigslist, which is just starting in Well, no, it had been for a while, but Craigslist was around and um I looked up I I posted thing or I I looked for people to drive with me to Burning Man.

Mhm.

And a couple of people a ner uh no a nanny and a scientist from Cal State

um both contacted me on the telephone and um we all met up the following day and drove up and that was that.

So it's just like a ride chair just kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I just got there and um you know you you you pull in and you it was dark by the time I got there and I I dropped off the people at their camps and then I parked my car which was a rental

cuz I I had a nice jag at the time and I didn't want to get it all dusty and stuff. So rented a car cuz it was so I could sleep in it.

I couldn't sleep in my car. So I was like all right I'll do that. And then uh if I got up there parked it and I'm like and wandered off into the darkness going this is amazing might have popped a pill and um and then I you know I got to later 11 12:00 I'm like I should go back to my oh f*** where is it

no idea where I parked

not a clue

what day did you go up

uh that would be on the Wednesday Oh, okay. Cuz back then for like with the listeners and viewers, you know, like Bry Man was I'm not sure if it was quite the full week or maybe by then I think it was the full week. I think by like 97 98. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it the doors opened on the Monday or the Tuesday or something like that.

Yeah. But still people were

Yeah, there were people still setting up on Wednesday night, right? I mean

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I I I just walked around for another couple hours until I I because I didn't even remember what car I had. It was a it's a rental. It was like a a you know a a minivan.

Yeah.

The other thing was that like um people were still arriving, right? So it's like you you put down your stuff. You're like, "Okay." And then you walked out and you came back and then like like a cluster of people around you were like, "Uh where's my camp?"

I remember looking up and seeing a red like in the distance. I just saw a red flashing light on a stick about 30 foot in the air. And I'm like, I remember that. I remember seeing that. I don't know which direction I said, but I remember it being about 100 foot away from me. And so I got to the pole with the light on it, walked 100 foot, and then did a circumnavigation 100 foot radius away from the um flashing light and found my car. Like science. How many uh false positives did you have? Like, here's my car. And some woman was like, "Hey, get out of here."

Uh, but yeah, it was great. I had a really good time. Um, I did find Oz and he had come up with some friends and was in a bus.

Um, but uh,

so you just camp by yourself like you didn't even want to camp with anybody else or

I didn't know what I was getting into. I had no idea. Then the following year when I decided to make the film that was quite funny because again Craigslist um I I was someone posted on Craigslist, hey we've got a call camp if anyone wants to join us. I'm like oh maybe I will. So I call up this chap called Billy answers the phone and he goes yeah yeah come on you. We got a really good camp. We've all been before. We know what we're doing. We're organized but we're not that organized. Super laidback. I'm like, "Great." And so he goes, "Yeah, um, tomorrow night we're actually having a sort of get together um at the at our house."

Mhm.

Glendale. So I'm like, "Great. I'll come along." So I go along and um I get there. I'm bit on the early side, but we're sitting talking to Billy and and Glenn and we're just like, "Yeah, this is um you know, good talking about how excited we are and people about to arrive and this guy start comes in, another guy comes in, another guy comes in, another guy comes in and I go, "Hey, Billy." He goes, "Yeah, you just joined the gayest camp in Burning Man."

Yeah. All party all the time, man. Yeah.

And I'm like, "No, that's funny." Um, but I I had a great time. They're they're still dear friends of mine.

And uh yeah, they It's a very gay camp, but there were really good people organized.

The the token straight guy in the camp.

Yeah, I was a token straight guy.

Hey, look everybody. Here's Stephen. He's straight.

Yeah, I know. It was quite funny. But they were so organized. They had dry ice to keep their ice cold.

Wow.

Oh, yeah.

So,

and they had a date written on different freezers for for ice or because there wasn't really I don't even think there was an ice department there, you know, you could

well for for people more modern day burners like we're going back in a trip down memory lane here like like back then it's like the only things you could buy on the playa would be like coffee at the center camp cafe right and um drugs I mean there there were kids like walk ride around in these bicycles it's like hey you want some of this you want some of that I mean I don't think there's so much of that anymore, you know, but I just remember people coming by our camp and just like, "Oh, you you okay? You want some drugs? You want to buy anything?" We're like, "Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." But yeah, the only time we ever like busted up money was to like get coffee or buy drugs from some kid. Like,

luckily now they've cleaned the place up and there's no drugs there.

It's entirely wholesome now. Yeah.

Like a boy scout jamboree. So, did you bring your You said you brought your camera the first year with you.

Um, yeah, I probably did bring it, but I don't know what happened to those pictures. The very first year.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Well, you didn't really take any like shoot any film or or video like that first year or nothing.

I video, but I probably took some photographs, but I I I really can't remember.

Yeah, that's the other thing is I remember back then like trying to take pictures of Birdy Man and you know with like little like film cameras or the worst was be like a disposable camera or something, you know? I mean, all of those pictures were just crap, especially like like at night. And then I remember like getting the first like like little like dinky like one megapixel like digital camera. I'm like, "Oh, look, it's a digital camera." And like

Yeah. This was before digital cameras.

Yeah. I mean, now like the on your phone, like the cameras on your phone, like the pictures I took in the last couple years, I mean, like they're like amazing. Like Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. People still take s***** photographs of themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, so when did the whole idea of like uh making a video of Burning Man come about?

That's what I do.

But was it between the first and second year? Were you just kind of like, "Yeah, I know. When I go back next year, I'm going to do that."

Yeah. I just I mean, I'm a filmmaker, so I mean, if I if I was a tango dancer, I'd be thinking I could do tango lessons there, you know, but I'm a filmmaker, so I'm going to make a film.

Um, so after you got back the the first year, were you ready? Just like kind of like scheming and making plans. It's like, okay, next year I'm going to do this.

Not really. I just was like, I'll pro like my attitude was I'll probably go again. That was fun.

I know bit more of what I'm getting into, so I'll just go back. And um and then I'm like I should probably film it as well. So that was it, you know. Um I had a little Canon camera, a little HD camera. HD. It was 720 DPI. It wasn't even 1080.

That was good for VHS, right?

Well, that's what I figured. I mean, I mean, it's like for for its time, it was good, but it only cost me like $350 400. It wasn't an expensive camera.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you didn't have to like uh get anyone's consent? Uh,

no. Like Yeah. I mean, if if you're talking to someone

and you've got to shoot and you're shooting with the camera, there's an assumed consent. I have your permission to to film you because you're talking to me. It just seems irrelevant, you know? It's like I mean, people get a bit silly about it. It's like,

well, it was simpler times back then. Like nowadays, it's like, oh, I would not fly at all.

It's still the law. Nothing's really changed. Um, You're allowed. You know what? People are funny. They think they have copyright of their own face and you don't. I can walk up to you on the street, stand right in front of you, take your photograph. That's it.

You don't have any rights over that picture. I can't use it commercially.

Ah, okay.

But you never have been able to use it commercially,

but I can take your photograph and it's it's actually dead right. It would be

way way way too complicated to give people to make you ask permission. I I once went to um the San Diego decom once

and they were all I mean the San Diego people were lovely people but oh my god they were stupid. Sorry San Diego people. They said oh hi Penny. Um yeah we got a new rule. You have to ask permission to take someone's photograph.

I'm like No, I don't. And they're like, well, this is a private event, so we're telling you that you do. I'm like, I won't take anyone's photograph then.

Mhm.

And they're like, well, no, we want you to take the picture. I'm like, nope. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to ask people's permission. And honestly, the last thing you want is everyone with a f****** camera walking up to every person that might be in a picture going, "Can I take your picture?" Trust me, by day one, they be like, "f*** it up. Go away. Stop asking me if you can take my picture. Everyone's got a camera these days." It was a stupid idea. But I just made fun of them because what I did is I take photographs. I put big black marks over them or I take photographs of a dog or a chicken or a car and I'd still put black marks over it and stuff. And so it's I just made a big joke of it and it got thousands of likes and stuff.

Well, it's interesting because now all these years later. It's like what you're describing is like that's I mean maybe not like latigiously legally, you know, but like in terms of like Burning Man like culturally it's like oh yeah I mean especially like on the ply like it's like that's that's the way it is you know and and people get like very militant about it too.

Yeah. People get stupid over it and they can get as stupid as they want over it. I know my rights. Uh here's the thing. Don't be a dick. If someone If someone suggests that they don't want their picture taken, great. No problem. Walk away. I don't want to get into an argument about it. But I'm not going to ask your permission every time I go to take a photograph because that takes a different picture. That's not taking a photograph of the moment. That's taking a photograph of someone knowing their picture's being taken.

Yeah.

Entirely different.

And so, yeah, don't be a dick. That's the most important thing. But That goes for life, you know? It's like don't be a dick.

If you can get for life and not being a dick, then you've done great.

Yeah. I mean, another like aspect of this is that I I think there's always been people on the play who are like, you know, like I'm coming here to like have fun like you know, if this kind of gets back to like either like my employer or my my wife I'm divorcing or something like you know people just kind like yeah, you know, I I don't want any like record of of me here, you know, and sometimes I'll be taking a picture of a sculpture or something. It'll be somebody like, you know, 100 feet away.

But if I take a photograph, I I'm not I never take sneaky pictures. I've got my camera up in front of me

and if anyone says, "Oh, could you delete that picture?"

Absolutely.

I'll just delete it there and then. No, take

I don't argue with people. It's like, you know, but you can't ask everyone if it's okay to take their picture. It's not possible.

It's just not possible. It's not a practical solution. So, don't be a dick. If they're doing something you think they might not want you photographing, don't take the picture.

Mhm.

Don't take the picture.

Don't go to Bianca Smut Shack being like, "I'm gonna get a lot of great photos here."

Yeah. No.

But also, the other thing is that the technology has really changed because I mean, you remember like way back when like there was no

4K camera in it. I used to carry 4K cameras on my shoulder. They used to weigh about 15 pounds. And actually, they weren't even 4K. They were just broadcast standard like 480.

Mhm.

Um and then when it's everything went high definition, they got even bigger and then they started getting smaller. And it's funny because you see people shooting with these stupid rigs these days suspended over their body and they're carrying this frame. And I'm like, you guys are f****** Insane. So, all you need My camera's just here. Where is it? Hang on.

He's just leaving. Did you go get his camera? He'll be right back. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Right. It's a a Sony 6300 uh a6300.

Okay.

I This is what I used to shoot with. Not with this lens, but that was this a zoom lens, but I normally have a much smaller lens on it.

Mhm.

That's all I need. But you see these people going around with these big things of gimbals and everything and you're like, "No, no, no, no, no."

Well, what are they doing? I mean, are they going to be bouncing like jumping around? I mean, what do you need a gimbal for?

They want it because it's production value. The producers want to see a big big rig. And I'm like, "No, no. If you want to if you want me to shoot it, I'm not showing up with a big rig that you don't need it. It hinders you. It does not doesn't help you.

Well, also like in terms of like your subject, like does it hinder you with the subject too? Like if you're kind of pointing like what you have there versus some like large behemoth thing. I mean,

yeah, the actors don't like it because you it's a much bigger thing. It's in their ey line

so that they're talking to someone. They I actually saw some they This camera was so big they had to install a mirror system. It was some silly IMAX thing. I I'm not a big fan of IMAX. I think it's too big. Um the a very good 35 millimeter film. You cannot see the difference between that and IMAX

because the quality is so good. And it's also in my opinion it's the wrong shape. I want to see a wide screen. I don't want to see something that goes up and down wider. I want to see it go wider this way.

Mhm.

Yeah.

So,

yeah. And another technology difference is um way back in in time, you know, like there was there's no cell signal. There's there's no satellite, no internet. You you know, it's like you you once you got off the black top and hit the the playa, it was just like you're just in this other realm.

Yeah. Um

I didn't mind. I mean, it was okay. It was fine. But I also didn't mind when cell phones arrived. It was like, "Oh, okay, whatever." I mean, I locked my keys in my car once.

Mhm.

And I couldn't work out how to get into my car. I was able to call my mechanic. No, sorry. I couldn't get the car started, but I was able to and the door was locked as well and I I was able to call my mechanic back in Los Angeles and he said, "Okay, here's what you can do." And he showed me or spoke to me in told me how to pop the lock and then showed me how to wire it so that it would start.

Ah,

and it it all worked. So, I was very grateful to have a cell phone out there. But I I usually just turn it off. One thing I used to do was um I had one of those Nokia phones probably like 2006, 2007.

Uhhuh.

You know the ones I mean the not the Not the flip phone.

Very popular Nokia ones, the sort of bigger ones with the antenna.

Yeah. Yeah.

I used to have one of those and I would walk down the the escalade talking on the cell phone,

pretending to talk on the cell phone. And I'd be just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And just very quietly just walk down and people walk by going, "What?" It was another five years before they got cell phone service. But it used to crack me up. faced it. I always

on the Sunday morning when everyone's like, "Uh, what? He's got to service." f***.

Yeah. I remember I think it was like in the later 90s. It was like in ' 98 or 99 like somebody, you know, the people people play music or they they do do all sorts of sounds, but like I remember someone was like every once in a while they would just play like like a cell phone like ringing and people would just be like Or it would be like a dog barking like this dog, the dog. But that's kind of like quintessential like Burning Man, right? You know, it's just it's kind of changing your or challenging like your your priors, you know? You're just kind like what? I'm not supposed to be hearing that, you know? Some sort of crazy thing like happening.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, Burning Man is is um it's a trip, you know. It's it's never quite what you expect. expected to be.

So after those first two years, so you went 2000 for the first time, 2001 you went some with some gay friends and you shot your your your film. Um, so what about after that? Uh,

just kept going back.

Oh, really? But but did you go with like friends to camp or did you keep like just doing your solo?

My own my own camp for a bit. Um, the bounty bounty club because I'm like, you know what, camps are really hard work to put together. And then I was at a friend's party and they had children in a bouncy castle.

And I'm like, that's going to be my camp. Everyone loves a bouncy castle.

Ah,

and how easy it is. All you need is a generator for power. Plug it in and it blows up.

Uh, I mean, you actually had to put something underneath it so it didn't make quite so much dust. Um, and then you had to fix it down properly. in case the wind came by and tore it off.

Yeah.

So, it was switched to the ground very securely and it had a big kind of blanket underneath it and stuff.

Um,

but then you just turn it on, blows up, that's good. And when you're done for the day, you just turn the blower off and it all collapses.

Did you ever have like at the end of the night, you're like, "Okay, time to go to we're going to go to bed. Let's turn this off." And you turn it off and then start collapsing and then there's something you hear from the inside.

That did kind of happen once. Um, but I would just go to bed and say, "When you're done, just turn that see that button there? Just turn it off when you're done."

I was thinking it would be somebody who was just kind of like, "Uh, I need to like crash somewhere."

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'll sleep here.

That actually did did happen once. I was trying letting it down and someone was like I'm like, "Oops." She was tucked in the corner. I didn't see him.

Yeah. I don't know.

It' have been okay. We wouldn't have been able to get out, but he would have been okay.

At least it wouldn't like suffocate or anything, right?

So then, uh, how long did you go for? Because, uh, I I take it you haven't been going continuously since then.

No, I went continuously every year since up until 2017 was my last year.

Oh, okay.

And then I went went back to England to look after my mom. Um, or I would have gone. Um, but yeah, that was um I I'll go back if I'm back in the States, I'll go back.

Mhm.

It's amazing. I don't think it's changed that much. I mean, sure, it's changed a bit, but you know, it's still just dusty as f*** and you electronics aren't going to work and you know, people are going to let you down and disappoint you and other people are going to thrill you. It's f****** Burning Man, you know. It's like it's what it is.

Yeah. So, have you been back recently?

No, not since then. I've been I'm I'm in Malta right now. So, I I haven't been back.

So, yeah. So, you're you're living on a boat in Malta now?

Yeah, I bought a boat when I moved.

Wow. So, how long have you been living there for?

I've been in Malta for three years now.

Ah, two and a half, three years. Uh, but uh yeah, it's great. It's a little island has the population of Fresno and it's about the same size as Fresno.

Yeah. But it's a country. It's It's not like a part of any other country. It's Malta.

No, I've I've heard so many great things about Malta. It's like definitely on my list of places I'd love to go. Yeah.

Yeah. It's good. It's um got tons of history because it's a it's like it goes like Italy, Sicily, Malta. So, it's a little island just off the island of Sicily.

And Malta, is it like Malti is like its own language?

Yep.

Yeah.

It has very recognizable language sounds a little bit Arabic, but it also sounds a bit Italian and English and French and and whatever, but it's um yeah, it's its own language. Um it's it not easy to learn. I'm I'm don't even try. I'm not even trying. I don't even know what yes and no is in Maltes. Everyone speaks English here. They because they know they have to teach English in the schools. So what they do is they teach every class in school is taught in Maltes and English.

Ah,

all all the classes are both languages. So by the time you leave school, you speak English and Maltese perfectly.

Have you fine with it?

Yeah. Have you uh run across any other burners there in Malta? Is there a thriving burning band community in Malta?

It's me.

I don't know. You build a little wooden man burn it on the beach. You know, you could be the have heard of it, but they haven't haven't been. So,

yeah. Well, I mean, from from Malta. I mean, coming from me, from Hawaii, I mean, it's it's it's a it's a hard track, you know? It's like a five hour flight, you know, but

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I just I don't understand like how some people do it, you know, like traveling like halfway around the world like so like South Africa admire the Japanese. They they show up You know, they look spectacular and they have a great time and they travel for like 24 hours to get there.

Oh, yeah.

And it's not cheap for them.

So, yeah.

And it's like, how much can you carry? Like a duffel bag or two, you know, like Yeah. Yeah.

Well, um, do you think that you would ever like do any more like artistic like like filming at Bernie man or anything or if you went back What do you think he would do?

Drugs.

What?

Drugs.

No, I I mean I might film something out there, but um I mean because I did the second film I did I because I wanted to make another one because Burning Man had grown evolved a little bit and I just wanted to document it again and I couldn't think what to do. What it's like, you know, it's like what what's the you you need a point of focus when you're making a project like that so that you've got a reference point.

And I'm like, well, Thursday is my favorite day at Burning Man

because people who've come to Burning Man, they're not just weekend warriors. They've been there for a while and they've enjoyed building it. So, I mean, I I really like the days before the gates open.

Become part of a crew that build some art and you get you're guaranteed to be able to buy a ticket and then you get there before the gates open. You get the Wednesday before the gates open and you build something and that's some of the best time there ever.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Really feel like, you know, we're at the sharp end of this thing. Um but Thursday I just thought was a good day. So I'm like, well, I'll just film what happens to me that day. Whatever Burning Man drops in my Hang on. Something's buzzing. I I have to run my own power here for some reason.

You're back.

I'm sorry about that.

Yeah, for some reason the the power just cut out. I I don't know why. There's no explanation for the generators running, the lights are on, that it cut power to the thing. Who knows?

Well, it's like a genuine Burning Man experience, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, one thing you're going to hear is fireworks. Really?

They love fireworks in Malta, more so than any other place on earth.

Really?

There are 36 firework factories on Malta. Up until about a few weeks ago, there were 37, but one went bang. Like, it was the biggest explosion they've ever had on Malta since the war. And And um yeah, big bang.

Wow.

So there's now 36 firework factories.

So

so the size of Fresno, but uh more fireworks than even Fresno

and they like daytime as well. They actually have daytime fireworks. Never really understood daytime fireworks, but daytime fireworks So, um,

yeah. So,

so where was it? Thursday.

So, Thursday.

Thursday.

Yeah. And I just let the day happen to me. It was like I by this time I knew a lot of people at Burning Man. I mean, one of the I was going to make a film a couple of years earlier, but problem was I know too many people there now. So, I'd be shooting something and every now and again they'd be like, "Hey, pay me." And I'm like, "Oh, f*** sake." You know, just Oh,

didn't take. So, uh, I couldn't do that. So, I just thought, well, I'll make a film where I'm just walking around meeting the people that I know.

And I don't want to do the history of Burning Man.

That's been done a lot anyway.

And honestly, it's like they had a party on a beach, people showed up, it grew bigger, they moved it to the desert. There's the story of Burning Man.

Yeah.

Well, um I think Larry did a fantastic job keeping it in like really well.

Mhm.

Can you hear that?

No. No. It kind of cut out actually.

You can't you can't hear the the fireworks going?

No.

Oh, that's weird.

I think it has like a noise suppression thing or something. Yeah.

Yeah. What it does, it focuses on my voice and stuff.

Yeah,

I'll just try try and keep talking and not worry about

Yeah, don't worry about it. So, Larry did a great job with keeping the the spirit of Bernie man.

Yeah, just keeping things like as they should be. And Marian's done a good job as well. I think um she really just kept it going. You know, it it it's it's what it is. It's not perfect. They make mistakes.

I mean, they're human beings.

Yeah. fine. Um, they they do listen to people. I can't There was one thing that I I did forot what it was now. I can't remember. I did um I there the people at the ice were basically because there was a big line for the ice,

the Arctica. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And they were if you gave them a bottle of spirits. They get you to the front of the line.

Very unburning man. And so I I did I said to Marian, I said, "That's" She goes, "Yeah, we can't have that. That's just that's not right at all." So she had a word with the people who ran Antarctica

and that little practice got stopped.

I mean, if you want to give them something, be in there. that's fine. But they were kind of like, hey, if you bring us a lot of whiskey, you get to the front of the line.

Yeah. Also, I don't think that that's a very sustainable kind of ploy because then after you have like 12 bottles of booze, you're kind of like, okay, I got enough, you know?

Yeah.

Right.

It's like turning me into an alcoholic.

But yeah, but I don't think it's I don't think it's changed that much. I don't know. It'll be Interesting to see what effect this HBO thing has on the event.

Yeah. What do you think?

I don't know if Larry would have approved of it

really.

Yeah.

Because I haven't

I mean I spoke I spoke to him about Burning Man and stuff and he goes it's quite difficult keeping it like it is. You know it's like the They want to like get a free ticket and report on it and I I say no to all of them. They they have to buy a ticket. They want to buy a ticket and they want to write about it.

Yeah,

sure. I can't stop them, but they got to be out Burning Man. They don't get to stay in a hotel in Reno.

Larry wanted them to be kind of like almost like embedded, right? It's like he wants them to like experience it like like everybody else, right?

Yeah. But he also knew that um it was going to expand to other countries. That's the one thing he really really wanted to see. He wanted to see the Spanish one and the Australian and New Zealand and Japan and stuff and have all these regional centers.

He was very big on that and they've achieved that quite well.

Oh yeah.

Um

and as I said, Marian's done a pretty good job of keeping it on the straight and narrow.

Big expose out on and I'm sure it's a very well-made film. But people will see it and go, "That's cool. Let's go."

Yeah. Yeah. I I haven't honestly to be I I haven't seen it yet, but uh

Oh,

yeah. Yeah. I I mean, everything I've heard like it looks pretty good. I mean, it's not doesn't seem like quite like sensational. It seems more like an insidider view or something.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure it's not sensational. Um

let's face it, Burning Man's not ational.

Well, I think somebody like Instagram stuff like these influencer and stuff like that's the sensational part, right? Like

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I don't know. I I don't know. I mean, Burning Man's still going to happen.

It's still going to be really dusty

and it's still going to suck, but

definitely a film about it on HBO. So,

yeah, it'll still suck, but it'll be more than 18 years later. Yeah.

Yes. Yes, indeed.

Do you ever go like any of the regional events I know there's like nowhere in Spain there was pretty close to you.

I have not been to anyone's out of the US. I I went to something I mean I've been to the San Diego decom that's always good fun.

Um San Diego they had their regional thing that's always great and that turned into something called Elissium that sort of spun off it spun off the main one. because they were like their politics and stuff. So, Elissium, you know, I say we're all still human, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, there great locations and stuff around San Diego for things and then No, that's about it. Um, I mean, I think there's something in there is something in in England and it actually was very close to where I was

and I I wrote to them saying, "Would they like me to I I would have bought a ticket and everything and I said, "Would you like me to set up a screening at the film?" And the reply I got was just obnoxious,

right?

Yeah. It was really just like, "What do you think you're special?" And I'm like, "What?" So, I didn't even go to that even though it was a an official regional 20 miles drive from my house in Devon. I'm like, "f*** those people. I'm not going to that." And I think it fell apart. I don't think it went on. I think it went on for another year or so and then just It's difficult to keep these things going.

Yeah.

It's really, you know, it's like

that's true.

I was involved in the LA DeCom for many years because there wasn't an LACOM

because, you know, this is probably about 20 200 eight or nine something like that I don't remember and there were a few of us who all went to Burning Man and we really liked it and we were hanging out one night and someone said we should do a decom and so we were where should we do it and we were like let's just do it on the streets so we contacted LAPD and they said yeah we can just shut the street down and um so we just just about a mile east of downtown LA. We cordoned off about I don't know half mile square, maybe a bit bigger. I don't know.

Wow.

Um about half mile square and uh had a amazing time right on the streets. Kind of like the fact that it wasn't even pretending to be in a park or anything.

Yeah,

it was on the streets of LA and that's why I like it. Um I got I got busy and I I stopped being involved after about three or four years and then they decided to move it to a park

and it wasn't as much fun. I understand why they moved it to the park, but I think it was better before it moved to a park

and I don't know if it's still going. It probably still is. There's something something going on because there's a lot of really good people in you know.

Yeah. But

yeah, no there's regional stuff like all over the world but

yeah.

Yeah. Something which you kind of hit on something which I don't think a lot of people really ever talk about very much which is that like Yeah. things pop up, but then they they pop down, you know, like like like here in Hawaii, like we had a very vibrant community. We had multi-day festivals, we we had decompressions, we had everything. Now there's like

nothing, you know, like people move away, lives change, you know, and it's like

hard. I mean, it's like I mean, I was I moved into downtown Los Angeles in 2000. and two. Yeah. And I got a big loft in downtown LA and I was one of the sort of early people into that area. They and it became the artist district.

No. And there were a few of us who who moved there because it was cheap. Now, of course, it's too expensive for artists.

Yeah.

It has new condos being built in the arts district

and you're like, they should give me one. of those one of those just because I was one of the people that started the arts district.

Yeah.

They they I don't think they're giving it out.

Doesn't work that way. Yeah.

Oh.

So, uh so so where did you So, you grew up in England and then how did you get to LA?

Well, that's a big assumption. You assume I'm a grown-up. I'm um I'm just full-sized. I'm not really a grownup. Um Um, I was born in Torqui in the south coast of England. I lived there until I was about 17 and then I moved to London with my girlfriend and lived there for the next 14 years. Um, I was doing motorcycle dispatch riding, picking up packing because there weren't even faxes back then. So, you pick up like legal stuff and deliver it to a courier.

Yeah. Courier just like But a motorcycle courier.

So, you're like cowboy, you know, but you're earning good money and you know, you just you're aing cowboy. You're riding a motorcycle all day long. Literally, you get on the bike in the morning, you're on it all day long. And um putting a lot of miles on the bike. I did 300,000 miles on motorcycles.

Wow.

That's that's 14 15 times around the world on motorcycles. in London. So that's crazy. Um and then I but I started to take more pictures and then I'm like cuz some of the clients we had were photographers because this is again before digital. They'd be shooting something and then they'd hand the film to you. You'd take the film to the lab. The lab would look at it and tell them it's if it's exposed correctly. They'd call them on the phone and go, "Yeah, give it another quarter stop on the close-ups or whatever."

They go, because you've got no you don't know what you're shooting and so um and so you'd be hanging out in the photographer studio and I'm like this is kind of cool and people like photographers I'll be a photographer and that was that I just started working for the music papers and I was a photographer and then I started doing video and shooting concerts and things like that and then I mean we had Margaret Thatcher was the the prime minister and she was horrible. And so eventually I'm like, I can't take this anymore. And I did a couple of jobs in Japan and California. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go live in California. Japan would be problematic because they're a bit stricter with immigration there. And I don't speak Japanese, and it would probably be five years before I could speak Japanese if I had a Japanese girlfriend, you know? So I I'm like, I'll just go to California. because they mostly speak English.

Yeah,

dude.

Yeah.

So then uh

so

Yeah.

So now you're in in Malta on a boat.

Yeah. I was there for 27 years and then my mom got old. So I went back to take care of her and then when she passed on I bought my boat. So I had to have somewhere to live and didn't want to buy a f****** you know flat in slow. So um Slow is like the the equival of

Fresno.

What? No. Fresno live.

You know, The Office um The Office, the film, the TV show.

Uh

it's said, Where is it set?

I can't remember.

It's somewhere just across. But you know what? That's the equivalent of SL. It's like there's nothing there. There's offices and industrial stuff, some flats, and housing's cheap. But I just I couldn't do it. So I'm like I'll just buy a boat.

So knowing nothing about boating, I bought a boat.

I had no clue.

So you're a sailor now? I mean, do you like sail around or you just live?

No, no, no, no. It's a motorboat personally. Um it has, you know, two big diesel engines in it like um but I brought it all the way from the UK through the French canals to um to Malta. There's a whole I'll send you a link. my little I have a little like YouTube series going on.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I can put that in the show notes, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's it's it's a it's mildly amusing. It's just, you know, me blundering my way through France.

Well, I mean, have to learn how to drive a boat, right? I mean, it's like

Yeah.

I don't know. That seems like intimid. I mean, do you ever like take it out or you're pretty much just kind of like, oh, it's on a dock and you're just going to live there?

No. No. I probably once a month I take it out. Yeah. But Um,

and Malta is a part of the EU, right? So like there's no like immigration issues or nothing like Yeah. Like

Well, yes, there are. Because UK is not in the EU.

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

Stupidest stupidest thing a country ever did to itself was Britain leaving the leaving the EU. And then now they're trying to crawl back.

And they will. It'll it'll go back in. It's a very good thing. But they'll have to adop the euro. They'll have to adopt a whole bunch of other rules that they wouldn't have had to adopt if they hadn't left in the first place.

And it's basically the Europe's been going up and then COVID hit and it went down a little bit and went back up again. Whereas the UK Brexit hit and it went down. Then COVID hit, he went down more. So, it's always going to be below where it could have been.

Ah,

it's not like, oh, it bounced back. It hasn't bounced back. The economy in the UK is not good. No one's got any money. All the venues have closed down. I mean, there's money there, but it's foreign money.

English people don't have any money.

I mean, some do, but not not as much as they'd like.

Yeah.

Not as much.

Sure.

Yeah.

Um All right. Well, let's get to the final question here. Um Yeah. So, what has been the the impact of Bry on your life? huge. Huge. I mean, really, I

and I've actually thanked Larry for this, but I think Larry probably had more effect on me than any other man

because I mean, my dad died when I was 21. I wasn't particularly close to him. He was a great person, but um we weren't that close.

But apart from my immediate family, Larry man, Bernie man taught me He gave me confidence to do things, make movies, build a camp. You learn how to negotiate. You learn You learn how to compromise. You know, it's like they show up next door and they got a loud hi-fi system that just horrible drum bass 247. You learn how to go and instead of just shouting at them, go, "Hey, can we turn the speaker just this way a little bit. We'll have people come and help you. We'll come and we'll dance. But the way they're facing right now is hitting our camp directly and they'll generally be like, "Okay, yeah, we can move it. No problem." I mean, you're not expecting grown man to be quiet.

No.

But

no, it's never. That's one thing. It's never

No, it's not. No. Um, and in fact, one of the rules in the bounty bounty club, which is my our club um was that you can't ever complain about any noise from with our in our camp. No complaints. No complaining. If someone is a problematic, you can talk to them about it, but we recommend you don't.

Yeah.

I remember like early on like there were two things about Burning Man. It was like there's always sound, there's always noisy or at least sound. And at least in the early days, you always smelled smoke. Like it was always like I just remember just always being smoky. I I don't know. My my first year was like 96 and like everything was just like on fire all the time. People burning couches, you bit of nylon and stuff, you know. But but that's one of the things that's definitely has changed where it's like there's not nearly as much fire and like smoke and burning stuff as it used to be.

Well, you're not allowed to have players within the city.

But even out on the player, too.

Out on the PL Uh

it's like it's not people don't burn as much as they used to. Yeah,

there's not as much stuff that burns as there used to be.

It's not as there's not quite as much crazy. Um I would just to default to what Larry says is best. If he thinks that's the good thing, then I'm going to go with that.

Um there's safety reasons. There's

mostly safety reasons. Uh probably the state of Nevada is probably said you know, and they if you want your permit, you're going to have to

help us out a little bit.

Well, le less to clean up and everything, right? Like,

yeah, less to clean up and whatever. Um

I mean, I remember back in the day, people would be like, you know, and people at my camp did the same thing that, you know, I'm not holier than thou, you know, but people would be like, "Oh, I don't want to have to transport all of the stuff that I brought. I'll just burn it. Yeah. Not sure about that, but

No, it was not a good thing. Made a lot of messes.

Yeah. But it's funny cuz like there's so many things that we're talking about like, oh yeah, these things happened in the past that don't happen nowadays. Like, oh, people used to burn way more stuff or burn their trash and whatever, you know? It's like or even like getting like permission for, you know, this and that. Like, I don't know. I mean, it would just be interesting if someone like I don't know, maybe this should be like your your next movie be like more of like a fictional kind of thing, but like somebody like teleported in time from like 2000 to 2026 or something, you know, like a small group of people just be like, "What do you mean I I I can't burn this? What do you mean I got to ask permission for that?" He was like, "What are you talking about?"

Yeah. It's funny you should say that because I I occasionally I'll I'll I've been known to write a a screenplay. Not that anything's been made, but you you can write them just in case. And I was it actually it does involve I'm not interested in science fiction because it's complicated and I don't know how to write science fiction.

Um so it's just it's actually what it is. It's a it's kind of set in a place called Bombay Beach

which is near the Sultan Sea. Yeah.

But this guy just happens to have a time machine in his garage but everyone knows about it but no one talks about it. but he just happens to have it there and then when very few very new very few new people arrive in Bombay Beach.

It's a very funny little town.

It's again it's like half a mile by half mile and it's a little quadrant of people

but they just happen to have a time machine

and it just it's a very matterof fact kind of thing. It's not science fiction movie. It's like hey you um you're traveling. Oh, yeah. Next week I'm going to go. Oh, cool. You know, but what something happens? Maybe a cat sneaks in and gets sent back to the past and the cat eats a mouse that would have spread rabies or something. The cat has changes the future. I don't know. It's just an idea going on in my head right now. But I like the idea of having a normal film that just happens to have a time machine in it rather than a science fiction film about a time machine.

That is pretty funny actually. Yeah. Where every just like nonchalant and just like oh yeah I was in 14th century France this weekend you know whatever

and then new people showing up like oh my god this is like the greatest adventure like yeah you know that's that's Larry's thing in his garage you know it's like you want to use it go ahead whatever.

Maybe they'll send someone send them back but their power will go out. They need power to run the freaking time machine.

They're like, I got stuck in the 15th century. God damn it.

I got the plague because of you.

Yeah. So, we'll we'll see. I mean, there's all sorts of little things. It would be a a comedy, but not a laugh laugh out loud comedy. It's just a like film film. So,

yeah. Well, especially if you just kind of like, well, this is like a special time machine. This is like a nonparadox time machine. So it's like you can go back wherever you go forward, backwards, do whatever you want,

nothing will change. Like your present will just be the same.

Yeah. I'm I'm in the stage where I'm talking to people about it and getting little ideas and and then at some point you go, okay, I got enough cookies in the cookie jar. Let's just start writing.

And then you pull things out. You I need an idea. What's that? Oh, yeah. You know, So yeah, it's kind of fun.

Yeah, sounds tons of fun.

Yeah.

So,

but um yeah, uh any other questions?

Well, I think that's about it. Yeah, by almost uh a little over an hour. Um

yeah. Yeah, that was in terms of like the influence on you like of Burning Man and uh seems like it's kind of changed your life, huh?

Well, a lot of my friends um I dragged a few people up there

and people I'd met out there have become very dear friends of mine.

So because if if you go through that together, you know, there's that shared hardship.

Yeah.

That you know, you're like, "Oh god, I can't believe we did that." You know, you're this is a little bonding thing that goes on. Um and it it created a thing in Los Angeles that sort of brought people together.

Um and And that was good. So it's not that Larry affected my life, but thing the one thing that he created has had repercussions and for for all over the place, you know, I probably wouldn't have bought a boat if I hadn't been to Burning Man

because it just showed me that, oh yeah, you can just do that. That'll work. You figure it out. It just it changed my attitude to life. It just just I mean I had a fairly loose attitude to towards life in the first place, but it certainly just like skewed it a little bit to being Yeah, you can do that. No problem.

Cuz I mean, it sounds like you were always pretty adventurous, right? You like moved to London when you were 17 with your girlfriend. It's like you moved to to LA. Were you thinking about moving to Japan, you know? But uh so like Birdie Band like like just amped up that adventurousness.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. And even to this day, like you're living in a boat in Malta, but it's like you still have like friends from Burning Man. your your

I wouldn't have had a to what's the tool you use to jack open a car.

Oh, a slim gym.

Slim gym. Yeah. I wouldn't have ever learned how to work a slim gym if it hadn't been for for Larry Harvey.

Thanks, Larry.

Thanks, Larry. I could bust open a car now.

Well, I couldn't find a slim gym, but I I modified a coat hanger. But what I didn't know was when you use a sling gym that you don't pull up. You you push down because the little rocker thing goes the opposite way. So if you pop to pop the little little thing at the back in the corner, the little lock thing on older cars, you got to push down. You got to move it around until you feel the and then pop it down and then it pops up at the back. You don't go under it and pull it up because that would lock it. I learned that Larry. Thanks, Larry. I've never used that for anything bad at all. But I could

at least officially

Yeah,

I learned how to hotwire trucks, you know? It's like cuz some point your f****** keys have gone missing and you got to move the truck. Well, how are we going to move the truck,

you know?

I learned how to drive a forklift truck. I It's like I I learned a lot of things through burning.

Yeah. Now you're a captain of a boat. Your own boat.

I'm my own captain.

Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful interview.

Thank you so much. I I I really appreciate it.

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