EP 96 Curtis Coleman

Episode 96 with Curtis Coleman is out now! Meet Curtis Coleman as he reminisces about his transformative experiences at the annual Burning Man festival. His story explores deep human connections and community-building, illustrating how the event acts as a powerful catalyst for personal reinvention and authentic social interaction. Andi and Curtis talk about how they co-created CORE in 2011. He showcases how the unconventional desert gathering fosters profound self-discovery and lifelong bonds, proving that the true magic of the experience lies in its unique spirit of playfulness and collective vulnerability.

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They make the trek out to Burning Man for a week and a day. After a lot of work, oh, there's a lot of play. Party party drama, drama, drama. b****, b****, b****. Year after year, they come back to scratch that itch. They all say their lives have been changed. After many years, lives have have been rearranged. That changes what this show is all about. You'll see the impact of Burning Man up and out. So sit back, relax, and cancel all your plans. These are the stories about the shadow of the man.

Hello and welcome to the Shadow of the Man Show. I'm your host, Andy. the guy who showed his friend a picture of him dressed up as a clown on the playa and the friend's response was oh no like yes it's that today our guest is Curtis Coleman welcome Curtis

hi Andy that was even funnier the second time

oh you're not supposed to break the fourth wall

I know this is a professional operation It actually really is. That makes it even more professional.

So, let's start in the beginning. Uh, what was the first time you'd even like heard of Burning Man?

So, um, I have a friend who I've known since we were in high school. We were best friends in high school.

Uhhuh.

He's kind of a guy at Burning Man now. He he his name is Arthur, but people know him as Sunshine, but um he's the guy that invented Plyc the the wood furniture and stuff.

Really?

Yeah. and um but he had never so we were best friends in high school. We got our driver's licenses at the same time. We got the twin Mazdas. We were we called each other the Mazda boys.

Um just best friends. And uh he called me one day and he said there's this because this is before like email or cell phones. We were on landlines. It was 90s. And he called me and he said there's this thing that's going on out in the desert. I'm I've read about it somewhere. It's called burn the guy or something. And I was like, "What?" And he said, "It's everybody goes out there and they build art and they build things." And he just started explaining to me and not gone. He read about it. He said, "It sounds so freaking amazing."

And I could see it.

I could like I could I couldn't see the playa. I had no earthly the idea of like your mental image.

Yeah. But I could like I could see people building stuff on out there and I was like I had to go like I I needed to just figure out a way cuz I was um it was just right up my alley as far as stuff at the time.

I think he told me about it in 97 or something like that, but I didn't make it there till like couple of years later.

Did he actually go?

No, he did not go. I brought him to his first burn in like 2003 or 2004.

So he told you about it.

He told me about it. He told me he read about this thing. Yeah. And then I went and then I tried getting him to go, but he was so busy doing his thing and working and he couldn't go and he couldn't go and he and he had family. He had he was having he was newly married. I was best man at his wedding

and um he just couldn't find the time. I was a little bit freer in my life. And so I went and um The interesting thing about your first time at Burning Man, I'll tell you this interesting little tidbit. I have met just thousands of people that have never gone and they say, "Oh, I haven't gone, but I know what it is."

And they they and they say, "I I know what I know what it is. I know all about it. I" And they all, including myself, have the same story after. And here's what it is, and maybe you can relate to this. It's like you think you know, and you've got this whole thing going on in your mind about what is going on and then you get out there and it's completely different. Just the the vibe, the everything is different than you thought it was going to be. Oh yeah.

And for the life of you, you can't recall what that original image was before you got there. It's just completely been replaced with this with what it is for you.

Yeah.

Right. And then it just doesn't matter what you thought, but now now you kind of know.

Yeah.

Well, for your own experience, like

Well, I think like especially nowadays like with the media and social media and influencers and everything, you know, it's like I'm sure people a lot of people are just like, "Oh, oh, I know exactly what it's all about. It's it's it but pick your poison. It's just like it's about people being naked or it's about people doing drugs or or it's about people beiality or I don't know whatever you know like people like these crazy ideas you must have seen in the news this this last year there was like some some Christian camp that was like kicked out, but it like

Yeah, they totally set this whole thing up themselves. Like it was they

It wasn't because they're like, "Oh, people hate Christians." And then they're just like, you know, they're kicking them out. It was because they were assholes.

Yeah. I don't understand. They Yeah. This whole social media algorithm like trying to like it's it's kind of a cluster.

You know what I call it? I call it creating to the algorithm, you know, and I think that's what like most people I guess who are popular in social media nowadays, that's what it is, you know? It's like, is this art that you want to do? And it's like, well, no, but but this gets

Well, that one was weird because they don't want to do art. They just want to get eyeballs. I don't know. I'm not getting I can't I can't get into the building.

So, you first heard about it like in 97 or so and then like so

and then a couple years later, it was very for me the um uh the experience was surreal and I was I was completely a spectator.

Mhm.

More of more of a spectator of

Did you go by yourself? I mean like or did you like go with a group of friends or like how'd you

with a group of friends with a whole bunch of people? Yeah. From uh uh we took uh we took we kind of filed together because you can't go by yourself like

Oh, I beg to differ. I've had quite a number of guests who've come like you know they're just like oh yeah you know like I just like I heard about man. And then I jumped in the car and I went and I'm like for me I'm like what? You know that's that's crazy, you know.

Yeah. Now the first the first year was not terribly memorable only because I was probably doing so many drugs I can't remember most of it but the um the subsequent experiences were

were interesting. I was

so I take it like you went with some friends and you just did like an open camping and well back then Almost everything was open camping, right? This was what like 98 or something?

99.

99. Yeah.

Rain, water.

Yeah. Oh, that's right. I remember that. You know what's I think what's really interesting is that what happened for me was the the first real experiences that I was having out there. I was super eager to do something, to build something or to have it like create an experience for myself so that I would feel like like I was inside the bubble. There was like this bubble of things that people were doing that I realized and then I wanted to go and I wanted to if I could create something or I could be um somewhat creative in something then I would feel like I was in the bubble, right? Like um like creating art or being a part of a project was more than anything it was just fun. And it was fun to be able to claim ownership of it and then be able to share it with the community and do this thing. I did this one thing um one year I came with a white picket fence that I bought at Home Depot and put it around my camp with a gate

and then I came with I had a stick with butterfly wings on it.

Okay.

And I stuck it in the ply inside the gate inside like my my front yard. card. And then I had a couple of other things, a ball, I had a um a ring, uh you know, like cracker jack toys. I just stuck them like randomly in the playa. And then I sat in the chair and when people would walk down the street, I would say, "Hey." And they'd stop and I'd say, "Do you know?" And some people would say, "Yeah, I know." And then I would say, "Well, do you want to know more?" And they'd say, "Sure, I always want to know more. And then I would tell them what I would tell them. Or I would say, "Hey, do you know?" And they'd say, "No, I don't know." And I say, "Well, do you want to know?" And they'd say, "Sure, I want to know." And then I would tell them. And what the thing was is I would say, "This is the community garden." And inside the garden, there may be a thing you need for your thing. Like you may need the stick with the butterfly wings on it for your thing. You are welcome to pick from the garden because it's your garden.

But like any garden, you wouldn't just cultivate from the garden. You got to replant. Otherwise, it just becomes an empty garden. There's no garden. So, when you're coming by, if you have a thing that you want to replant into the garden, feel free to put one, two, three, whatever items back into the garden and plant. And they go, "Wow, thanks. Now I know." And I go, "Great. Now you know." And I sat there in the chair for the first two days and just watered the garden. Any time somebody would walk by, I was like, "Hey, do you know?" And like there were like hundreds of people going by the street. By midweek, the garden was just filled with crap, man. It was like But it was turned out to be a bad idea,

right? But but it wasn't moot. There was like um there was like a gnome in there. There was like some cool s***, right? Like and people would just drop it off because they wanted the thing in the garden. And my whole front yard, I had a little walkway going up to my RV and stuff like that. And the whole front yard just started getting more accumulated with stuff. And people were literally coming through and like sifting through to try to find something for their thing and they were constantly in there putting something in there for somebody else and it became really kind of interesting. It was just one of these things that you find on the street, right? That weird that weird thing that you stumble on at the end of the event, of course, I had just like way too much s***.

I was going to say by like Friday when everybody or Saturday bags and I I cleaned up my my space as one should out there, but it was but I had these things. But there was one phenomenal experience. Um I came outside and there was a a man and a woman, you know, young couple and they were sitting cross-legged and they had found this ring that I had put out. There was like a little cracker jackack ring or something. It's just like it's a like terrible ring.

And he was proposing to her and giving her the he was giving her the ring that found in the garden. And he was like Hannah she was and she put it on and he's like, "Do you like it?" And she goes, Oh honey, I love it. And they Betty proposed and she accepted and they hugged they cried and they then that little ring from the garden and it was just one of those kind of sweet Burning Many moments,

you know.

And um I think that for me the the the early times that I went was about trying to do something like that. And

so when you first went I mean is this something that you kind of stumbled into or was like even travel.

That wasn't when I first went that was like that was like later. So

yeah, I just know after going out there and seeing things so like one year Christine or who my my my ex-wife I'm her husband

and um we went we had gotten married out there and then the first year out there married she did this amazing project that she thought up at our at our camp and have you ever seen those black bumper stickers that say this one one time at Burning Man. That was Christine. Christine, that was her total brain chop. Well, she took that from band this one time at band camp, right?

But that was her thing. And what we had was we built a little stage at camp with a microphone and speakers

and a sign above that said this one time at Burning Man. And anybody could grab the could get up for the microphone and on the street just start talking about this one time at Burning Man because they have a a story they hotel and then when they'd leave we'd give them a bumper sticker or 10, you know, to give to their friends.

And there was just like always people sitting out in front in chairs listening to people's stories and there was always people that wanted to get up and tell their story of this one because that's what we all want to do. It's like, you know, when we tell our stories, what's the funniest thing you've ever seen? What's the what's the most interesting thing? What's that serendipitous moment that changed your life? You know, whatever it was. And so those experiences were always um kind of my for me as a burner or a person who went were was always my driving force and then also the connections to people through those interesting stories and um and connecting people to doing that stuff.

Yeah. I mean this the whole participatory aspect of everything, right? I mean I'm sure like it like you said like you didn't like show up there, you know, it's being it's like as soon as you got out of the car, I got to participate now. I mean, I'm sure like it kind of grew or you had to experience it grew on you over time, right?

I was doing that in my life. I mean, I I was a musician, you know, at the time. I was a um

and so I was I was doing uh I had uh created a children's uh program in concert. I've been in popular music before that and then

I was doing the same thing. But but it

my whole life has been about um human interaction my whole life even you know in my later years I built a social network for people that live that live nomadically that um in RVs and I did that but um the most exciting thing I ever did at Bernie man was the project that we did you know which was the corporate

Oh yeah yeah well we'll get into that

yeah yeah I'm sure you have a thing

well you know it's all organic we'll we'll go from here here to there. Um,

do you eat organic food?

Um, I honestly I eat just about anything.

I do too. I'm a trash can. I just

But I find that like frequently organic food tastes better. I mean, it can frequently be more expensive. You have to be kind of careful cuz like sometimes it's like it depends like where you're buying it from. Like you might get it home and be like, "Oh, look. It's rotten." You know, but like it doesn't have those preservatives in it, you know? But uh I don't know. Bang. That's a tangent, right? But um so yeah. So like you So where were you living? Were you like on the the the West Coast then that that point like when you first went like

No, it was in uh Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Oh, okay. So living in Santa.

So you got like a bunch of friends that you all drove up together like and then it was all the first time for all of you like Yeah,

that's a good drive.

How long is that? Like is like a can you do it one shot or?

No, we did it in a couple of days. My friend Alexa and I would go we went once or twice after that by ourselves. She was kind of my burning buddy

and we would go we had some really funny experiences going together and um

she was kind of my she was my my friend in going and having these experienc es and she was in New Mexico as well.

Okay.

And so she's now in she's living in the UK. I've got a lot of incredible memories from those years.

Mhm.

Of just exploring and stuff. Do you remember some of the camps like in in the old like um like one of my favorite ones was Happy New Day. Do you remember that one?

Happy New Day.

They were on the esplanade and every night at midnight they would do like happy new year except it was happy new day.

Oh wow.

And they would do the countdown and and everybody gather them. They had champagne and

Oh wow.

It was it was great. Do you remember um uh

this was a great one. Um spectator camp.

That sounds familiar.

Is that the one that had the bleachers?

Yes. They had the bleachers on the one night and there was like it was like you can just be a spectator and people would sit up there and then people would were walking by. would yell. No, they'd like like do something, right? Because I'm a spectator and people would like do a funny dance as they were going by the bleachers. It was just

hours of entertainment just being a spectator.

That kind of gets me to like the whole just kind of um the life cycle of the domestic burning burner, you know? I mean, there's there's different types of people, right? I mean, there's some people it's like it's a bucket list thing. It's like they go one time and they're just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Been there, done that." You know? Some people it's like Oh,

you could go three times, but like unless you get involved, you participate, you volunteer, do something. Like after three times, it's kind of like you get a little jaded. You know, it's kind of like h been there, done that. You know, I find it's like the people who who go more than three times are people who like yourself, like me, like, you know, it's like you you you connect with it and and you you find something to do, right? And sounds to me like, you know, it's like you kind of like that participation. kind of hit you early.

Well, it, you know, it was all about the people. It's like human interaction is more stimulating than a good cup of coffee.

And so what I found being out there

and you were just like that naturally beforehand, right?

Yeah. But I it was so great to just be able to talk to people and not feel like you're intruding on their life, you know, like um

like uh my one of my dearest friends in the world, I haven't seen her in years. She lives in Australia now. snowflake.

Like I'm I She was like there at this C and she had this huge snowflake on her back and we were talking. I'm was like, "What's your name?" And she's like, "Snowflake." I'm like, "Of course." And we just would talk. I would also do this thing that was um I didn't do it on purpose. It just kind of happened. So, you know how when you're trying to go somewhere and you're going it just it's like the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, right? So, you're going from I don't know from 9:00 to you know, to 4:00 or something and you're just going straight and somebody else is on this on a different beline except you are about to bash into each other either walking or on bikes and somebody has to slow down or go around because you're going to hit each other. And what I would always do is stop that person and say like whoa like like instead of avoiding each other if we had one 30 seconds earlier, we would have completely missed each other. Who are you? And I would stop and we would and I met

so many people that I'm friends with by doing that and just sitting down on the playa and having just an incredible conversation with this person instead of avoiding them. That became problematic later because there were so many people out there that I'm with my friends and we're going somewhere and they're like, "Oh my god, Curtis, you can't talk to everybody. Like, we have to get where we're going. It is not today.

Just avoid them. We can't. And that was that was troubling for me because it was I really loved meeting all these amazing

I'm surprised your friends didn't like makeshift like uh get some like PVC and like make like a little cube like with some shower curtains and be like, "Okay, there's four of us. We're going to hold on four different corners like we're going that way, that way. Okay, Curtis." And just like all I can see is just the inside of the cube. That's right. You come on.

They just continued on and just got swallowed up by something. I spent a lot of time with with, you know, we the intention was to go out together, but you'd never end up there,

you know?

But I mean, I think it's like a central kind of aspect of Bernie man, right? I mean, like I think to a lot of people, especially

I don't know, dare I say it nowadays with like the younger generations. I think there's a lot of like social anxiety like people like like meeting each other, you know, and it's like it's like what do I say? You know, it's like just be yourself. It's like, well, how do I do that? There was a there was a there I think I don't know what year it was but there was there was a little bit of that later where I would talk to people and they would be taken it back that I would kind of get this I don't talk to strangers thing and but usually that was early in the event

don't talk to strangers at Burning Man

right that was early in the event usually like this was in later years and it was earlier in the event but by the end of the event I I wasn't experiencing that at all. I mean, everybody was just

very someone who just got out of the car and like and they're like perfectly pristine and clean, you know? It's like, whoa, whoa. You're like,

I've got an amazing story about that. I don't know. I don't remember what year. It was early. We were sitting at camp. It was Monday morning

or after like midday and we're sitting there and some guy walks up and he goes, "Hi, I'm wondering if you guys can help me. And he was dead f****** serious.

And we went, "Sure." And he's got he's holding like a duffel bag and a backpack.

And we said, "What's going on? What do you need help?" He goes,

"I got to I'm trying to find Burning Man."

Like, I can't help you there, man.

Dude, we all looked at each other. We were like, we started laughing. We were like, that's that's it. It was like a fish swimming around looking for water, you know? It's like And he and we said, "What's he" He said, "I got a ride. I'm trying to go to Burning Man. I got a ride, but I fell." But they sent me here

or I got too high in the car and then I woke up and they're gone and the car is not around and I'm just I don't really know where I'm at and I'm trying to find I'm going to Burning Man. But he was not This was not some kind of like play. No, he was absolutely dead serious. And we could see it because he was really disoriented and I have no idea what happened, but I stood up and I put my arm.

Hopefully you guys are gentle with him.

Well, totally. I put my arm around him and I said, "Do you see that tent over there?" The one with all the flags center camp was I pointed to. I said, "That's Burning Man right there. You're you're so close. You're

That doesn't look like a may."

No. He goes He goes, "Really?" And I said, "Yeah, that's it right there. You're you're you're here. You just got to go over there and then you'll be at Burning Man." And he went And thank you. And he like went I've heard so many stories like this at the um at the at the thing we did uh that Christine did uh that year with this one time at Burning Man. This guy got up and he told this story that I just loved about he was um he was walking down and there was some guy that was standing there just frozen just kind of looking staring out in space. And this guy said I had my backpack and I just kind of walked up to him and I put my you know tapped him on the shoulder and said, "Are you all right?"

And the guy looked at looked around. He looked at me and he goes, "I think I've lost my mind." And the guy go he remembered that he had something in his backpack and he goes, "Oh, hang on a second." And he opens up his backpack and he pulls out a little tennis ball which had the word mind written all over it and he hands it to the guy and the guy looks at it and holds it and he goes, "Here you go." And the guy looks at it and he goes, Thanks.

No, you're all set.

You're all set. You found your mind. So, I thought that was a very, very funny story. But you could lose your mind out there. No drugs are needed. I mean, you it can be very overwhelming, I think, for some people.

Yeah. I mean, I always tell people it's like one of the few, if not only places I've ever really experienced where it's like you can be completely and utterly stoned sober and and and you feel like you're tripping.

Yeah. It's like experience is not driving and on the ground and everything and you you're just like well how is it it's like and later on he's like well no that those are LEDs and that no that's like a glow stick on a kite or you know that's a drone or then okay do you remember I don't know if you remember there's this one year it was like towards like sunset or dusk and we're like walking along the ply we look up at the sky and we're like you see this point of light then it's like two points of light then it's like three points going across the sky and then all a sudden it's like it's like a like a like a necklace of like pearls and but then like the ones in the back are disappearing but then there's ones in the front and we it was funny cuz we all looked at each other. We were just like how the f*** did somebody do that? We were just like, "Yeah, man. I know." Like it looks like it's really high up in the sky. It's like somebody must have like a kite or a balloon or this and that. And then it was only like 9 10 months later it comes out. It's like oh that was like a Russian like booster rocket that was like coming out of orbit like at just the right angle and it had been up in in space for like 24 years and it it just happened to come down at that angle and we were just like

just the serendipity just like like what? But I just remember the the the thinking of just like no we're at Burning Man somebody did that and we're like how did they how did they do that? We're like how can we do that?

That was the thing that I thought that was that always um the wonderment for me was there was always something each year that was just an astonishing um either engineering thing or beautiful or beautiful or an experience that somebody had created. But there was always I always left there with

with something. My friend Alexa and I

um we got up early one year and we wanted to see all of Burning Man. So we got up at like 6:00 in the morning or something and got on our bikes and we would start at the end and go crisscross the streets cuz we wanted to see the whole thing.

Okay.

By midnight we got three blocks.

It was just like impossible because everybody's when you do that, everybody's doing something and they're doing something crazy and fun. Do you remember the year when they did the pool, the swimming pool?

Oh, was that the one where they dug a hole in the ground?

No, they brought They brought a above ground pool and they had a fire truck that was filled with water and they filled it up there and they had these shirts that said no pool for you

and oh my god we went

we went swimming. We found it and you had to be super nice to these people to let them and they had little rubber ducks in the pool and we actually sat went swimming like every day. It was amazing. It was just so great. It was hot that year. It was just like it was so like, "Oh god, we got to go swimming." And we went to the pool and we were just really nice to the people because

I'm sure like after about like 6 hours or so like that that water must have just got

well they they had good it was but they shut it down and then they would run it through filters. That's what they had the um

uh they had the it was this old fire truck that had this huge tank

and they would run it through filters back into the fire truck and then out or something and it was um it was pretty extra to do that and have a pool.

Yeah. I think nowadays you can't do crap like that because of like hepatitis or whatever.

You remember there was one year there was a it was like a tree, right? And and during the day it would like rain water and at night had like fire or something and so like the water would rain down and then it would like collect the water and then it would pump it up and so it would, you know, would just kind of like recirculate. So basically it was just a mass shower. Like people would kind of go and wash all their crap off, but then this same water like I don't think I don't think it was filtered. And I I I think like after a couple of days or something like I I don't know if the Nevada Department of Health was a thing at at that time. Like I think I'm sure somebody was just kind of like h Yeah, you could do the fire part of it, but no no more of the water part of it. Like that's,

you know, it's it's interesting. I think you're right. I don't think that anybody was kind of keeping track of those things. I mean, cuz like um some of my closest friends out on the play were like the tuna guys,

but they and they were and they and mom still

Okay.

call her mom and and Oh, go ahead.

No, I was going to say tell our listeners who younger people might not know who like who exactly are the

guys are arguing. You know, people go out there and they'll do like pizzas or They'll they'll want to feed the masses or they'll do some extraordinary, you know, dinner or sushi, you know, like that. The tuna guys are arguably the first camp that did this. And these are a bunch of people that live in Kuz Bay, Oregon, and they were deep sea fishermen. And they would load up just a crapload of tuna and fresh fish, sometimes sand.

It was like a freezer box truck or something.

Yeah. And they would load it up at the end of their or you know close to the end of the se or close to this part of the season right before Burning Man and they would bring it out and they would spend the entire time at their camp just

slicing up fresh sashimi and cook it and grill whatever.

And it was absolutely delicious. And um and they you would they wouldn't ever we had no way of broadcasting where people were camping. It wasn't we didn't have maps back then like they do now. And so they had they had a little um fish wind sock.

Oh yeah, that's

And you'd have to go find it. You'd have to go you'd have to go find it.

And um and I became really close with those guys because I love them because I thought

And what's interesting is there was never any talk of I have no idea what people's politics were or anything like that.

Um I I wrote a song for I think it might have been mom's not my mother but mom who was the mom of the camp.

Um her son or somebody, but I remember writing a song for their wedding and

but it was just it was just a lovely they were there were lines of people and they would just be serving just extraordinary food to anybody that was there. And

yeah, and again that was back before the Nevada Department of Health. Yeah.

Yeah. And um but arguably that was I think the first camp that I personally ever saw of somebody really giving, you know, that like just their whole camp for the whole week was just about serving what they brought, you know, just as a gift. Just a um and they they they were just kind of they they they

they became synonymous with cool camps, you know. the tuna guys.

Oh yeah.

You remember?

Well, no. They totally saved our ass like one year cuz um you remember we had the the Hawaii regional camp, the Capilina camp.

I do.

Yeah. So, we would have these um Friday sunset luau and we had that the pig. We had like 120 lb pig like roasting on this rotisser. I remember that 10 hours.

I totally remember that. In your culture distraction camp with a bar. With the bar.

You had this cool bar that was like like and stuff.

Oh yeah,

it was amazing, Andy. I loved that. I hung out there a lot.

The 120 lb pig literally went in like 15 minutes. I mean, there was a line of like, no joke, somewhere between 750 and like 1,000 people along. And like the pig just like just evaporated and and it was kind of like a we kind of did like sort of potluck style. So different people brought different things like I brought like a bunch of like lomy lomi salmon stuff, you know. Other people were making like musy bees, this and that. You know, there's a bunch of like Hawaii stuff. But then, you know, with this huge line of people and like the food was running out, that's when like, you know, I got the tap of the shoulder and it was the tuna guys. They were just like, "You need some help?" And we're just like, "Please." And they

And they helped, didn't they?

Oh, and they just Oh, yeah. I mean, till into the night. They were just

And they just made it look so easy. And they were just drunk as f*** the entire time.

Yeah. And I bet hardly anybody got sick at all.

Yeah. Right. Hardly. anybody got sick. How did you and I meet? I did we meet? Did I like reach out to the regional when I went to Hawaii and then

Yeah, I think that was it cuz I think you stayed at my house or something, right?

No, we had already known each other by then. We had already this Yeah, I think it

was probably through the regional thing like Yeah, I think you were coming out to Hawaii or Oh, you wanted

your thing at schools or something like that, right, for the kids?

I was doing I was doing go to Hawaii each year, but I reached out because I every place I went I wanted to reach were a new they were not

they were just kind of and I I was I always felt that like the event was not really Burning Man. It was you know the the music right like the like you know Led Zeppelin's a band right and or you know and for all intents purposes it's kind of b******* even though I like their music but music is not b******* music is real and so that music of people connecting. I always felt like that really would be a shame if that wasn't happening in the other 350 days a year, you know, you know, and um so everywhere I went, I wanted to kind of participate and get to know people and

be able to travel and and know meet people

because Burning Man's more than just, you know, like a a festival or a music festival or an arts festival or a place to like go get high or have like sex with strangers. I mean, it's it's a community, right? And so then you're just like, well, I want to have this community for more than just one week, right? You know, and so I mean, back then, like you're saying, it's like the regional was kind of new. And so you're probably one of the few people to actually like travel around, you know, and explore.

I don't know if that was one I think I was able to because I was a musician. So I was traveling, I was touring, and I was I was on the road. So I

But But it was I think that it was just such an integral part of my life because I loved it so much.

I I when I I I just couldn't get enough of creating things with people and doing things. You know, I one of my uh there's an artist named Wizard in the Bay Area. We made this uh it was a group project. We did this uh called the pagota of infinite reflection. and it had this spinning thing and we built it to do it a midweek burn which used to happen earlier but it kind of went away and people weren't burning stuff and so we that was our whole thing we want to do a Thursday night burn and we did and we built this thing and it was really cool and I remember when we were building it um I asked Wizard I said what is your favorite part of doing this and he said it's fun just building stuff with friends is just so much fun and it's not serious. You know, I I understand big builds and you have to be serious and you got to have your team and you got to raise money and you got to do all of that and it's very serious in the thing, but ultimately it's just so much fun and and

well, if you're not having fun, I mean, why are you doing

Well, there are a lot there are a lot of people that do their entire lives and don't have a lot of fun, you know?

Yeah, but this is burning bad, you know? I don't think it's anyone who's just like, it's miserable. That's why I love it.

You know, it's funny cuz you're like, you know, people go for the drugs or the party or the sex. I didn't experience like any of that kind of nefarious stuff. That was not

that I I suppose it was going on, you know. Um, and I and there's stories about it and there people that go out and look for it, but it's

I can't imagine.

There's all sorts of kinds of scenes kind of weird like scene. Yeah.

Like you want to find AA camp, you want to find like like praying to

Yeah.

prayer camp. I mean like whatever. I mean like you can find whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

My favorite thing to do what I always like would look at my like what was my highlight of the week? My favorite moments were sitting around the fire and just at camp and just when before when we could do them, you know, we'd have our burn barrels and stuff.

Just sit around and um and just there was this guy that walked up. We were sitting around the burn barrel. And he goes, um, he came up, he was wearing full, um, fisherman, uh, stuff. He had the big thigh high boots. What what are those things called?

Waiters or like

Yeah. Right. And he had he had the coat, the whole thing. He had a tackle box. He had a big pole. And he came up and he was like, "Hey, can I can I have a seat?" And we were like, "Sure." And he sits down and he uh I said, "You're a fisherman." He goes, "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm I'm I'm deep sea fisherman." I said, Okay, that's great. And he said, "Yeah." And then he opens up his tackle box. We're all just sitting around the fire and he

opens up the tackle box and he reaches in and he pulls out this little blinky ring, right? And it's like and he fires it up and starts blinking and he he, you know, ties it to the end of the thing

and he says, "Uh,

what he said, I don't know what he said anything. He just took it and then he said, uh, can you just sit back? I got to cast this thing." And it's pitch black, right? It's it's like there's no moon. out and people are walking. Everybody's blinkied up and he casts this blinky ring and all you see is this blinky thing just flying through the air and bouncing on the plier when it lands. And then people start walking up to it to get cuz they saw this thing flying through the air

and then bouncing on the plier. They didn't see that it was tied to a, you know, tied to the thing

and they go up to grab it and they start reeling it across the ply and they start chasing it. It's like raver bait, right?

Yeah. hippie fishing.

Hippie fishing, right? And then he was doing that and we were just dying laughing. It was the first time I'd ever seen this, but I know there are people that have done this. But then this guy was so good at it. He then reels it in and then he takes it off and then he reaches into his bo into his tackle box and he pulls out a bunch of glow sticks and cracks them. And he looks at us, he goes, "Sometimes I need to chum the waters before I go fishing." And he throws these things out like they all fly out and all these people walking through these glow sticks and bouncing on the floor. That's awesome.

That entire night was just that was the night and it was just hours of fun and

and laughing and

I hope he like kept it in character. Like I would love it if he was just like like had like a main accent and he was just like see

he did. Yeah, that was exactly what he was doing. I forgot he did it.

Let me tell you about the one that got away.

Yeah, right. Exactly. He was just She all the fishing stuff and

I last night and I was out here and there was a I'll call her big birthday.

That's right. Exactly. And I think that's the for me that was the that that was the lure.

Ah yeah. I had some friends one year that they actually that their camp was the um it was like a hippie fishing bait and tackle shop.

Nice.

Yeah. And so then they had like a little platform and they were like on the top and they but then you know they had like all the different lures and stuff like that and it's funny because I think for the most part like you're saying it's like oh people like have fun like oh that's hilarious you know but every once in a while like you get someone they would just be like you know you know I found a dollar on the pla and and then it started moving away from me and then it came here and it found like you guys had it like on some line and like I'm my rate it's like what's the meaning of this? It's like I've got to write a letter you know like I I I don't think I found any place on earth that is more playful

where you just feel like just finding that child in you and it's just not

it's just so refreshing to not

be serious and not you know it's just playful and whatever however you want to do that. So it's

Oh yeah,

it's great. That that part's great.

Yeah. Well then, okay, this kind of gets us to um Yeah.

Well, no. Going back to like the way you talk about like like the regionals and like in getting people to like like you know communicate to work together and everything but uh the great circle of regional effiges that uh me and you partners in crime created and was it that 2011 right?

2011.

Yeah. So I think okay it was 2010 when I sent the email to the regionals list and I kind of sparked the fire and then I kind and then like and then I remember talking to And then I think you had the same idea at the same time.

I've come out to see you. I I've got a I have a witness to this which is Christine. We came out to Hawaii.

Uhhuh.

And I came and so I don't think I sparked the idea. I think I think it's it's totally reasonable that people have the same idea at the same time, especially if it's a good idea.

Yeah.

But we came out and saw you at the in the Northshore and we had lunch. We went to this restaurant and we were sitting there and I'd been thinking a mad for probably about two months about this idea of what was in my mind was a regional network project and have Bernie man give us some real estate, one big thing out there

and the different regionals could build whatever they wanted and they would be connected to each other and what would end up is this giant blob of whatever got ended up. But the whole reason for it was that in my mind it was difficult to kind of teach a large audience out there on the play about regionals. If you've got a booth Yeah. center camp like the if there's a huge art like remember the um the Belgian waffle and everybody saw it like what is this? Where did this come from? Oh, it's a bunch of Belgian guys, you know, the a work project. So, they would see this giant thing that we have no idea what it would turn into,

but it would be it could be as high or whatever, but they were all connected and then people go, "What is this?" Oh, It's the It's the It's built by the regional regional networks. What's that? Oh, where are you from? I'm from Texas. There's Austin over on this side and blah blah blah. That was the idea. And then you were having the same idea and you said the proposal

and then I think it was was it Larry that said, "Why don't we just do a circle or was that

No, it was it was a little bit different like um back then like I was in like I started this thing called the regional information center that later became regional network. And so like my whole thing was like I I kind of wanted like the regionals to kind of

communicate and network more and also like but also to to to connect with with with average like burners like on the play too. And so that's why I was like oh let's just have this one place which like we have these posters and people can kind of come and we can like not only can the regionals like kind of like regional contexts like talk to each other and communicate but we can communicate and connect with like burners and people can find then I was like well what if we had some sort of project that we all kind of worked on. And then it was kind of like an extension of this. And so if for me it was like it all started as just like I still have the email somewhere. It was it was like one or two paragraphs like it was it just I think I was like drunk and high and I think it was like 2010 and I didn't go to Bernie man and I was just kind of like if anybody knows me like I always have these like all these ideas. I'm like hey I got an idea. People like yeah god damn it Andy another one of your f****** ideas. You know and so I was just like yeah what if we like circle and back that the originally the original original idea was it's like let's circle the man with our own individual regional effiges and then it was like and then we'll light them all on fire and then like then our like we'll have like like rockets or whatever like going from them into that's how we'll light the man you know and I'm sure Dave X would probably just like freaking having any reason at that point like Yes.

You know how many people you're going to kill.

So I mean, so then

and then I I remember when I heard about this, I kind of pushed myself in. I'm like, so I need to be a part of this because I've been

Well, also I think at the same time I was looking for a partner because I was like, wait a minute. Like I can't do this by myself. You I was like, I'm out here in Hawaii. Like I have a family. I have a job. Well, yeah. I had a family at that point. Yeah. And I was was like I can't take on this is too much. It's like I need some help. And then honestly like the first month or two like the the or had no interest in any of this. I I think they were just like you can do this out on the ply. It's like you're not doing this anywhere close to the like and they were just like no no no no. And it's kind of one of those things with like so many things that like I've done for them or or happened at Bernie man. It's like if you kind of demonstrate to them that there's like a desire or there is a passion for something, then they'll come in and be like, "Okay, now we'll take it over, you know, like now we'll take credit for it." Like, hey, you know.

Well, yeah. The cool thing was is that everybody that was involved with their own effigy, all these different regional groups,

they didn't, it wasn't just that they would build an effigy, they had to learn how to build art out there. What is their burn platform going to be? How are they going believe it.

And there were like 20 of them or like 25

and I went because I was because I was a touring musician. What my what the role that I played is I went all over the country and visited the and helped them with their builds. I was in Maine, I was in Texas. I was in uh Arizona with the, you know, with those guys because I was a actively participating in the original toast that, you know, before it became Siguaro Man, right? And back way back in those days. And um And uh and it so it was interesting. And then I called probably my favorite Burning Man artist, if you're allowed to have one. Are you allowed to have a favorite artist? Is it like

It's like picking your favorite child, but sure.

I know. I I don't think you're allowed to, but but people do it anyway. So that was Charlie Smith, who does he my he's he he builds these, if people don't don't know, Charlie builds these beautiful um steel furnaces that get just filled with so much wood and they get so hot that they start glowing and you get hundreds of people around these things and he I I had known him since well a decade before from toast because he had built this tunnel of transformation. I was just I loved what he did because the whole reason for it was to bring people together. So I called him and I said um we need to have some sort of uh fire thing that would anchor the project and I whatever it is you want to create. And so he created the firebirds of the fifth direction and the entire circle was anchored with four of these birds that he built. And he he had complete creative control and he was able to get a uh a grant from uh from Burning Man for this as they were around the circle for the whole week and we would go every every night and light each one

and spend a few hours till it burned down to go light the other one. And so that was um

that was an important thing because

we burned the thing on Thursday night

uh the whole circle. But those firebirds were burning it. We were doing it every single night. It was a big job. We had

Oh yeah.

Each one of those things would each one of those firebirds would burn burn through two cords of wood in a night. Like it was just insane. amount, but they it created community. People would get around them and

they were

again that's like was kind of the whole point of this, you know, it's like it's community. It's like it's between the regionals amongst the regionals like with with random burners and everybody and Yeah. Yeah. It was that was an incredible project. I mean that was that was 2011. That was my last year.

That was mine too. It was so incredible that I felt like um I felt like for me I felt very fulfilled. I had done a bunch of stuff out there and had been involved in in numerous art projects but that was um it was I almost felt you know lonely after it you know

you know what I mean like it was so we had gone Andy Grace was was

an equal part of that because she was coordinating all of the stuff happening from

she was basically the org's kind of point person

leazison right Because basically when it got to the point where we're just like when I showed them the spreadsheet I'm like okay we have these 24 different regionals here are the different things they're going to do and and they were just kind of like

oh s*** this is serious you know that was when they were just kind of like okay we're stepping in and like Andy's taking control you know and honestly like as from my experience I was like good I can focus on the Hawaii one you know but I think like you you I mean you and Andy were like still like you know going around and like you know I mean I did uh wrestling.

I don't want to I don't want to minimize also that I think she was involved not just because you know her job called to be a liaison but she was so passionate about this thing and she thought it was

um just such a

great thing to do is you know as we all

the guys basically like made it happen you know

so did everybody else and some of those projects were amazing. There was the guys from Europe that came over.

Yeah.

Do you remember the and they they hardly spoke any English and they needed heavy equipment to help build their

I just remember like for some reason the main group stuck in my head cuz I I remember going over them and then then I they were like yeah our regional is really like 40 people or something you know like we don't really hold any events or anything but it's like but we're here and we made this lobster trap thing you know and I was just like

that is amazing that I I went I was visit I went to visit my brother so that my brother thinks I was visiting him, although I was, but I went out there and I helped them with that build and and traveling to these different places. I didn't do the Europe one, but um and then text uh Austin did that snake eating its own tail.

There was some cool s***. The thing that's amazing, if anybody's listening or you Andy, you you can do this. If you go on to YouTube, somebody did a time lapse of 2011. Have you seen this video?

Is that the one from It's like from a mountaintop or something like that. It was a time lapse from before the like a week before the event and then it's like it's just time lapse and it goes night and then and then daytime and then night and it just gets brighter and brighter and if you count the nights

and then it says uh opening night Sunday or whatever and then you count the nights on Thursday night it goes night and then there's this little tick right which is because they we synchronize the burn of all of those things at the exact same second. And that was

that was all Dave X being able to

Oh, yeah.

coordinate that. And that was a trick. But it it it

and I think to this day it's still in the Burning Man history books is like

the the the largest burn like ever at Burning Man or something like that or largest coordinated burn or something. I mean,

where did you watch the burn that burn from?

I was at our Hawaii the the um our Phoenix and so because

that's right. You had a you had an effigy.

Yeah. So I was basically doing perimeter like like at mine. So I was I was like yeah you know I wasn't even I was like pointing outwards wasn't even looking at my own thing you know but uh it's like eh

you know

I had I had a real desire to be able to see it from a really good vantage point.

That would have been nice.

Andy Andy was very sweet. She um she had got a hold of uh somebody that ran one of those cherry pickers.

Uhhuh.

Heavy equipment which was on the perimeter. And she

uh she radioed the guy and told me where to meet him and they picked me. It was just me and the cherry picker operator. I was just alone and I got to go up and

um and it's etched in my mind. I don't I didn't need a smartphone to take a picture. It was just

and then afterwards it was just so fun to walk around to all the different and they were having party and you know and and you know as each So I don't I mean neither we nor you went after that right I remember hearing that core happened the next year um but basically I heard it happened one more time and then never happened ever again like apparently like

anything about that

well what I heard was just that like the second year it just like got out of control like people were spending like tens of thousands of dollars you know like 50 60 $70,000 on their thing and Yeah, I know. I was like, what? I mean, that's like many times the the budget that we had in our entire regional for 10 years, you know? It's like I was like, can you just for one thing on the ply like one time like but also I think Dave X kind of eventually put like a stop to it because I think he was just like it's

that the pervert perimeter is just too huge and it was just it was just too dangerous and it was just too much, you know, and because I think it's it's like I don't know. Tell me what you think of this, but it's like

the the formula I They see usually with things happening at Burning Man is just it's like bigger bigger bigger bigger bust you know like it's always like got to do it bigger got to do it bigger and then all of a sudden it just ends you know I mean there has been like in the past couple years there were a couple of people who were interested in like redoing core again you know but I I I heard that the org was just like they were just like no it's just it's it's too much you know like Anybody listening that wasn't around then what what core CE stood for was circle of regional effiges and it was I don't know if we even said the speaker but it was a circle around the man of

how many were there?

There was like 24 or something

something regional communities that and there was there were these art projects but when you're walking up on them you don't really see the circle they were just kind of there because it's just so big but it was around the man and then All of them went up in flames on Thursday night

together at the same time is a kind of a competing force with the whole big bell of the ball man burn on Saturday night.

Mhm.

But I think Larry was really an instigator in making sure that this happened because it was it there was no push back on what that might mean or anything like that. Like I know that um that uh uh David uh who would build the temple every year, he he would always Yeah. David would always want to build it a little bit shorter than the man. It was always very important to

build it taller than the man is because it's the man or whatever. And it's just it's just kind, you know, you're you have a host that you're saying or whatever.

But I thought that was very gracious of everybody at Burning and to not only allow something like this to happen um but to really it in and uh and have high hopes for it. I'm sorry to hear I didn't know anything about the next year. I just kind of

um I felt very complete with my

Yeah, same with me. Yeah.

You know, experience and and um and I and I was interested in doing a full timing in an RV by then and um and with Christine and oh that's right my parents were dying you know my dad we went to Santa Fe and we were dealing with that and it was just too much

yeah but

yeah

you know

but you know I mean that's life intrudes you know and it's something I think some burners like we were talking about like some people are bucket listers one time some people like some people like ah I'm going like 30 40 years straight you know but I don't know. I I think you need to like live your life and like me it's like I came back after 13 years and it's just like hey the magic is still there you know.

Well some people do. I mean my friend Arthur you know to circle back who first introduced me to the he heard about it. I talked to him the other night and this was his 23rd burn. He's been going since I invited him

to I have a very funny story about that. Okay.

The first the first burn that he went to. This is um Oh my god, it was one of the funniest things that ever happened out there.

All right,

so he came for this first year and he was so excited and he came kind of midweek because he had to get off work and he just had family and just trying to figure out when to get there. Never been before, didn't know anything about the culture

or anything. And we're sitting in my RV and he's uh he's sitting at the counter um of the kitchen and he has a uh he's got a Whip it cracker.

Like one of those whipped cream

Yeah. Yeah.

dispensers. He's got the top off and he's filling it with cream and some amordo. And I said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "Oh, I'm making um I'm making Amordo whipped cream. I'm going to give it to people

as a as a little gift." And I'm thinking I'm thinking to myself,

"Oh, this should be rich." So he cleans up. He has no idea about what people think when they see one of these things.

So he's But we're walking down the esplanar or something and he sees some woman and he goes, "Hey, you want some?" She's like, "f*** yeah." And she grabs a thing and goes like it's like a face full of whit like what the f***, man.

And I'm I'm over on the side just practically peeing my pants. And he's like she throws it at him just like thanks a lot, buddy. You know, whatever. And he's like, "What?" And I'm just I'm I I'm laughing so hard I couldn't tell him. And then some guy comes over and he's like, "Hey, you want some?" The guy was like, "Yeah." And he's like, "Same thing. just a face full of whipped cream. Anyway, so if you know this thing,

if you know, you know, like that's one of these like things that but he became I mean he he swallowed the pill hard. He became very very active. We created um or not created, we were the instigators for for helping to create uh Silicon Village and this whole regional community. in San Jose

and we we built Silicon Village which I think now is still one of the largest camps at Burning Man really.

But he he invented Plyatt which is you know this furniture that you can go online and get the designs for for benches and stuff like that.

And um uh he's he was a real kind of disruptor in that in that whole create not disruptor but uh just like that whole gifting of ideas and allow people to build their own thing and And um uh he's been at it ever since, you know, and um

well, after we're we're done um um you should definitely put me in touch with him. I'd love to absolutely.

Did he did Arthur do the Dollac that one year? Is that the same?

It was like the Doctor, you know, the Doctor Who, like the Doll. Um it's like the

I couldn't I couldn't I don't think so. I couldn't keep track of and all the things that he was he was doing. A lot of things out there.

Yeah. All right. Well, we got to move on to our second question. We'll just uh

Oh, that was only question one.

That was question number one. An hour.

So, yeah. So, your pre- Burning Man background. So, uh where where did little baby Curtis grow up?

I grew up in Los Angeles.

Okay.

Um in Westwood in West LA. My uh I have three brothers. Um I was a musician. Um I came out of the womb wanting to do music. I could pick up a guitar and just kind of but first I played drums and then I could play guitar and it was kind of like um that's what I was going to do my whole life or I was going to do would you like fries with that? Those are my two choices in life, you know, for me like

musician and food service kind of goes together,

right? Exactly. So, um but I it it was I was good at it but um I never worked at it and I was I was I was just lazy. And so I I was doing studio work and I was uh uh playing with uh artists you know uh to remain nameless because it doesn't matter and um but was a touring musician for most of my life and uh um and into the 90s and then I mean that's what I was doing when I uh when I found Burning Man. I was a touring musician. I was But I', you know, done that, but I wasn't, you know, like I was the either the hired help for an artist

I wasn't the artist. I was doing that or I was doing I'd written this children's program for schools about finding their voice and safety and then that became my thing. It was very interesting to me and that's what I was doing. Reburn

Reburning Man and during Burning Man up until 2005. Yeah, cuz you had a cancer scare, right?

I did. Well, this wasn't a scare. I had um I I woke up one day and I had moved to the Bay Area because I wanted to be closer to my Burning Man community and wanted to be more involved. And then in 2004, I had this thing kind of pushing up against my skin and my neck under my jaw. And it was little at the time, and it was hard as a rock. And I would remember lying in bed and I was thinking, "Oh, I know what this is, but I didn't do anything about it.

Yeah. Like I don't want to know. Yeah.

I didn't do anything about it. And then uh um my friend Blonde, do you know do you know Blondie? She used to have this

she was super she was like like Uber volunteer. She she did all kinds of stuff out there for years. And she had um she had this tent that she would always she camped near center camp and it was just f****** blinged out. Like it was just like it looked like the sun. So, I've never seen so many lights, but this is before like LEDs and stuff. She had just like Christmas lights and just it was insane.

Anyway, she um she was a a big impetus to get me to go see a doctor and they stuck a needle in it and I had throat cancer and um it got the I spent a year where I didn't do anything about it

because I was having too much fun doing the Burn Man thing. It was I knew that the minute they'd stick a needle in that that's all I'd be doing. So, I didn't do that.

And um

and then uh this is before Facebook. Everybody was on Tribe.

Tribe. Yeah.

We were all on Tribe. And Arthur, my friend we were just talking about, he did this whole Save Curtis campaign

and um they uh and the Burning Man community was um really kind of rallied around and it was very interesting because what What I noticed was they did I don't think they were doing it for me. I think they were doing it for themselves. It was like there was this moment where they felt like they could do something that wasn't just about the party, right? So Arthur and my friends, they threw this big kind of fundraiser at Soma Arts

in San Francisco because I had no health insurance. I had no money. I was like I was, you know, going from kind of gig to gig and I wasn't

starving artist. Yeah.

Didn't have a lot of resources at all and I couldn't work. I was just like my career was over, man. I was I had a third of my neck removed. I had radiation to the throat and I had uh uh chemotherapy. So, while I was

going through that, a whole bunch of friends threw this big huge burner party at so in San Francisco and like a couple thousand people, it was I don't know a lot people came and it was fun and everybody's having a great time. 90% of these people I didn't even know and I remember sitting there I was talking with a friend of mine and she was saying like so what do you think about this and I'm like I think they're doing this because it makes them feel good that they can help something other than their own, you know, project and that that it wasn't as vanity and it just it didn't matter that it was me and I don't think I was being humble. I think that's really what was true. And it was um it was a very interesting kind of moment. Those that were around when it happened, I think, will remember that. I was very grateful.

At the end of it, they handed me a bag with like $35,000 in cash in it. But I couldn't do I couldn't work. I was like I had to pay bills. I had to be home. I was going through radiation every single day. I had to go to get my treatments and stuff. And I was living in somebody else's house like I didn't have money to pay rent and

stuff like that. So, um it was probably the most pivotal moment in my life because um I felt very connected to the community.

And for me, that's all, you know, that was that was everything for me. And um

uh I remember getting back out to the playa that that was 200 five into 2006

and uh I went out there um and I had met Christine at a uh at a Burning Man kind of we used to have these uh these burns out on uh Red, White, and Blue Beach in Santa Cruz.

Mhm.

We would do them like on weekends and stuff and it was just like little mini Burning Man. It wasn't a regional event. It was just a bunch of people would go out there and we'd have little theme camps and

the fire And everybody's camping and it was super fun. That was I went out there. It was my first kind of uh foray out of my house from treatment. I needed to be among the people. I weighed about 129 pounds.

Wow.

And I uh and I met Christine there and we did big love and a big relationship and it happened started that night and then we got married the next year. Burning Man. It was that was what happened. And so cancer was the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

Well, in the one like it kind of ended your career, right?

Well, what's so

there a transition between like you like as the old Curtis and the new Curtis?

I had to reinvent myself completely because I was running around to schools, elementary schools. I got like the parents choice award for the best elementary school program type thing and the whole thing was called I have a voice and it was teaching kids how to like find their voice right and the universe whatever

things are at play there kind of snatched my voice and said the kids don't need you to tell them how to find you need to find your voice right

and that's exactly what happened so I like the everything in my life that I'm most proud of happened postcancer not three that I was just kind of living up, you know, resting on my laurels. And then post that was when I just really was finding and I'm still on that search. I just finished a kind of a pilgrimage

in Europe just trying to like a soul retrieval, you know.

Um

but I think that's the important thing that I learned was that um cancer is bad. I think for some people they some people do believe that and I I would never tell somebody that they shouldn't feel that way, but for me I everything about it was life-changing. My doctor said something amazing to me, Andy.

She um

I said I was asking her what cancer was because I didn't really know. I was I was embarrassed.

She said, "What do you think it is?" And I I said, "I think there's something growing on me that needs to be removed." She said, "So, it's not growing on you. It is you. Your own cells are dividing differently than they normally do." But she didn't say they're doing something somber reverse, right? She didn't say your your your cells are doing something they shouldn't be doing.

She said, "Your cells are doing something different. Instead of creating new lymph nodes, it's creating this hard mass that doesn't behave like a lymph node."

And I said, "So that's me and she said, "Yeah, that's that's you." I said, "So, if I'm hating this, I'm just doing self-loathing." She said, "You know, Curtis, bingo. And if you can figure that part out, you're going to do 90% of my work for me." And I said, "How so?" And she said, "Here's how so." She said,

I'll never forget. She said, "Dogs bark, cats meow, cows go moo, and humans get cancer. Right. She was like she's like this like she said my job's very interesting because I'm trying I'm I'm all these things are fascinating to me as far as like how can we maybe stop that and how can you live a a life but if you're not pushing up against this

then that's going to make it a lot easier for everybody for yourself. And so I didn't it was like

um my uh one of my dear friends and and I was in relationship for a long time with uh Judy uh said um what did she say? She said nothing absolutely nothing in the universe does anything no this is what she said she said does anything in the universe and and I mean anything really need to be controlled forced or beaten

like the universe is in perfect order except for cancer right? Like like like what is that? You know, it's our selfish thing. And so um I really was given an opportunity by this community to be able to kind of be a harbinger for my own internal change. And

it was the it was the greatest experience I ever had,

honestly. I'm not just saying that. I'm not trying to be provocative here. And I know that there's plenty of people where it's hard to hear that. because they lost a loved one or they that that they had it themselves and it was not a great experience.

I got to tell you when I was in the middle of the hardest part of treatment, I actually like it was so hard and I was sitting there and I was saying to myself, I remember lying in bed cuz I was I couldn't swallow. I had thirdderee burns on the inside of my throat from the radiation. I had no saliva. I had um no taste buds. And I remember I was tired, was going through chemo, and I remember lying there and thinking, if somebody came up to me and said, "Oh this is all been a dream, but you got to get up and you got to now go to work and participate and do this thing in life because nobody you're not going to get another envelope with $35,000 in it." I would have totally chosen what I was doing in that moment, lying in bed and doing this thing. There was something so freeing and having all my friends in a community circle the wagons around me and just allow me to just be still for a minute. It's almost like I kind of wish that everybody could have that experience at least once in this life

because we all want that. We all want, you know, it's like God, can I just have a rest for Lord's sake for a second? I got that opportunity and

what came out of it was a much more healthy, stronger Curtis and and always kind of in search of the best versions of not only myself but of other people too. I really

want people to step up. I think my biggest challenge in life is expecting people to show up and some people just don't know how to. And

yeah,

so do I want them to have cancer? Maybe if that's what works. I don't know.

All right. Well, this naturally gets us to our last question is

All right. I'll shut up now about that.

No, no, no. This is the Curtis Show. Um Jennifer. Oh god, that's so scary. Okay,

welcome to the Curtis Show. Yeah, come on kids. Yay, Curtis.

So, yeah. I mean, you already talked a lot of it about it, but uh the impact of Burning Man on your life, what what what's it been? Like, how would you characterize it?

Wow. Um

because you can't like there's no not negative, but like, you know, it's like you can't uh be like, "Well, what would your life be like if you hadn't gone to Bernie band?" Because it's like he would have no idea, you know?

I you know, I want to answer that. Um Andy Grace and I talked once we were we were sitting chitchatting about like why are why do people feel so sexy out at Burning Man? Like what? Like they're they feel so,

you know, like Yeah. that people feel attractive and They feel attracted to each other out there. What is like

these were like like liberated kind of just as like the kind of

Well, she said she said it. She said it's because people are doing creativity and creativity is the same place that people

do their vulnerability from that they when they like all of that stuff. I think for me like what it has meant what my mother Hey I'll paint this picture. I'll do this really quickly. My um 16 year olds or maybe 15

and kitchen. I've gotten my grades and they're just f****** atrocious, man. I got like D's and C minuses and maybe an F in there. And everything's bad except music, right, which was like a B or an A or whatever, but everything else is just in the toilet.

And my father is Oh, and they had found some weed in my pocket like, you know, like a week earlier and I'm like, "It's not mine. It was Arthur's." You know, like it's my friends. You know, just like, "It wasn't mine. He borrowed my coat." Whatever.

Whatever the f***. Right. And my dad is holding up my rapport card just looking at me and going,

"This is completely unacceptable." Like, what? And I'm like, "You don't understand. My teachers don't understand me and they don't they don't, you know, they're they're it's not like it was when you were in school and all this stuff." My mother grabbed me by the wrist. and she said, "Come with me." And she put me in her car and drove to some parking lot in a uh at some park and she put her head in her hand and start to start sobbing cuz that was like really a lot of energy in the kitchen. And I'm rubbing her back cuz I loved my mom. I was like, "Please don't mom, please don't cry. I'll do better in school. I promise. Please." I just did. I felt really bad. And she looks up at me and she says, "Oh god, Curtis, I don't give a s*** about your grades." She said, "My hope is that sometime and hopefully soon in your life, you learn to have a healthy relationship with the truth. Burning Man,

I think of all the things that I've been involved with, work, music, was this place that got me connected with wanting to just be honest about my life or or whatever it was that I was doing with other people. There was a sense of you just there's no need to put on a face. You can be yourself. You can you can express yourself. You can do that because there's a whole community that not only wants or you know would love to see that for me, but they want to do it for themselves and I'm encouraging them right like that. That's like you're looking at somebody and you you're you're talking like you can just I just want you to be you you know

and how much you want to bet like how many of these people you're coming across it's like they didn't even know themselves right you know it's like it's a journey of discovery I think for a lot of people showing up on the player right

totally I have a friend of mine who um I communicate with all the time and she

uh she after Burning Man this year she told me that she had the best burn of her life and she sent me videos of her with her you know the art car and she just had this smile on her face but what I noticed was that she was celebrating being alive in that moment and being honest about it, not

trying to put on a face, you know, like we would do at work or something like that because it's inappropriate to come into work all gloomy or whatever the f***, you know? It's like

it's almost like you're like like not living someone else's life but living your life like and and for the first time it's like oh this is living my life like like you're not living like for your boss or for your spouse. before this other person who was just like like I demand this of you, you know, like

it's about I think it it taught me how to practice living life on purpose, not by accident, you know, and that's a very honest, vulnerable place

Oh, yeah.

to to be. And um

so it gave me a lot of practice in that, you know. I was always shocked when I'd get off the plane and I'd be sitting in Burger or something trying to get something and like sparks and people are just standing in line just and I'm like, well, this is different than it was about 10 minutes ago, right? Because every everybody's, you know, and and so I think that's the biggest thing that I took away from it and I'm I'm even though I haven't been in a while and part part of that is um I smoked way longer than I should have, you know, and so breathing is difficult for me and you know people want to believe the ply is really healthy for you. It's not, you know, that doesn't mean you shouldn't go. It just means that don't be surprised if you have some breathing issues after, you know, several times of doing this. And so for me, I find my community, you know, out here. I have burner friends all over the world.

And it is it's a wonderful conversation. You know, I was just in Europe and I rode a train with a young woman from uh who uh I was in Spain and she doesn't speak a word of English and she was an art student and in Barcelona we we sat next to each other in the plane and we talked through a translator app don't speak Spanish and and she she's aware of Burning Man and her aspiration is to maybe create something with group of people and we we just had an amazing conversation but she when I asked her about that because It's kind of a leading thing and conversation for me because I want people to know that I was involved that I am still involved in the ethos of what that is because it's valuable and because people may have heard about it. They say, "Oh, what is that? That big sex party or whatever." And that creates an opportunity in of itself to be able to help people to, you know, get a different viewpoint of what they might be seeing in social media.

Does that make sense?

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, like the Burning Man's Place that hates Christians.

It's all a bunch of devil worshippers,

right?

Hippies.

Exactly.

And they're they're sacrificing goats to Bahamean or some such demon or something. I don't know.

Yeah, I know.

All right, man. Well, we could go all night, but uh this is actually already going a little longer than you normally do. It's not quite John Law Lang.

I know. I was gonna say, did I should I should we go one? Should we go a few more minutes just so you can say that I was the big bag of wind?

Sorry. I don't think that record can be broken.

We love John Law and maybe I'll have him come on another time. Yeah. And you could always welcome him to come on again for round two anytime.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd love to round two. I could talk about stuff all day. And I love you, Andy. You and I have known each other for a long time and we always have a re a way to connect every couple of years and

yeah

and um and it's like that's that's reason you know enough that's what our connection is is this common thing that we found that um you know it's it's people who haven't it's it's funny because they might think it's culty or something but it's

I don't know what people mean by cult you know, I mean, people like throw the C-word around like all the time, but like honestly like and it's also like part of this this whole project I'm doing with this show. It's like what I don't know I I came to the re revelation in my third year on the play in 1998 where something I call the connection or later on I call the connection hypothesis, you know, it's like

that's what it's all about to me, you know? It's all about like this is our like your your chosen family, you know? It's like we all come from crazed backgrounds, some from like, you know, broken families or, you know, bad situations, but like, you know, this is our community, you know, and uh Oh, God, we can go on for hours about this.

Well, you know, it's I mean, look, I've got plenty of things I could say that are negative about it, but I don't

Oh, yeah.

But I don't No, it's not that I don't want to. It's when I look at

Well, for me, it's like what keeps you coming back? It's like, why do it, you know? It's like, oh, because it sucks. You know, it's like, no, because it's like there are immense positive things to it and it's transformative.

When I look at my life and I look at the people that are most meaningful in my life,

other than, you know, I've got a a handful of people that weren't through Burning Man that I grew up with that are kind of ride or die,

but the people that are that know me the best and that know me the deepest are the people that I either knew me as a child or the people that know me through this community and that

I cannot dismiss. It's it it is important and it gives I find I think of myself as a um as that I have value and part of that is this stuff that I became by interacting, you know, with people. I do want to tell one quick story.

Okay, one last story.

Burning Man is funny as s***. It is just it is hysterical and I don't want to dismiss talking about that because it is just when I talk with people what one of the things I love asking is what is the funniest thing that you've ever seen there? And the funniest thing I ever saw which I want to tell this story was do you remember the doors the guy built some ours built all those doors and there was all that space in between each one but they were lined up perfectly with the site there like 20 of them and they just went in a line.

So the first thing that was funny was the line of people that were lined up waiting to go through the doors because there wasn't anybody lining them up. You could walk through in between any of the doors and do that but everybody was being so nice They wanted to let everybody have their own experience through the door.

Do it, man.

And there was just this line of people and I thought that was just I was losing my mind how funny that was. And so I stood in line like everybody else. I was with a bunch of friends and we finally get up to the front and I want to be very careful about going through that first door because I have 20 more that I'm being allowed to go through and there's, you know, there's like 20 feet in between each one, right? There's like ply of space. And so I open the first door and I kind of step through the threshold and then I start walking towards the other door and I left it open and the guy at the front of the line behind me screams, "Hey, what? Do you live in a barn?" I left the door open. So that was the first thing. Then I go I go through and I go through the next one. I'm going through the whole experience and I get up to the end and there's a group of friends behind, not my friends, just a group of people behind the last door and anytime somebody goes through it, they all go surprise because it was the last door and they thought and you could totally see them right there doing the surprise.

So I go through and they go surprise and I said um I said, "Uh, do you guys want to hear a joke?" And they said, "You sure?" And I said, "Um, so one pia cow said to the other pia cow, Moo. Have you heard of mad cow disease? And the other play cow said, "What do I care? I'm a helicopter." And everybody and everybody laughed except for this one woman who's just kind of looking at me, squinny eyed, and she's mouthing the words, "What do I care? I'm a helicopter." She looks at me, she goes, "I don't get it." So I said, I looked at her friends and I said, "How long is she'd been doing this and they're like all week. So I looked at her and I said, "Okay, let me do it again." So one ply cow said to the other ply cow, "Moo, have you heard of mad cow disease?" And the other play cow said, "What do I care? I'm a helicopter." And she goes, "Yeah, no, I still don't get it. It's not funny. I just don't understand it." And so I said I looked at her and I said I said, "So do me a favor. Walk over there in the middle of the pa." So she said, "Okay." She goes over I said, "So now put your arms out straight out to your side, like not against you, but straight out."

So she does and I said, "Now start spinning in circles." And so she starts spinning around. I said, "Now start screaming, "What do I care? I'm a helicopter."

So she's spinning around like, "What do I care? I'm a helicopter." And everybody's cracking up. And then finally she looks at me and she goes, "Okay, I get it now." Right? That entire experience in that like 20 minutes was the essence for me of the art, the interacting with it, the connecting with people, the funny, the guy behind me who wanted to be a part of of being funny, too. And

that piece you can do anywhere. And that's for for me that's like

that's all of it in in a nutshell.

Wow.

Does that Does that make sense?

That's awesome. I think we'll leave it on that note

right there. Leave it on that note.

All right. Well, thank you so much, Curtis. This has been wonderful.

Thanks for asking me to do this. This was fun.

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