Spotlight Episode 22 - South Africa

Dive into the latest IFATCA Spotlight podcast as we explore the unique world of air traffic control in South Africa with Palesa Msibi from the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers of South Africa (GATCA). From the bustling skies over Johannesburg to the intricate coordination with neighbouring countries like Lesotho and Eswatini, Palesa shares her journey—from a ground hostess in the military to becoming an air traffic controller. Discover how South Africa’s diverse linguistic landscape (with 12 official languages!) and cutting-edge technologies such as ADS-B and CPDLC are shaping the future of ATC in the region.

Ever wondered how air traffic controllers manage the vast, often uncontrolled airspace over the Atlantic and Indian Oceans? Palesa reveals the challenges and innovations, from HF radio backups to the busiest domestic route (Cape Town to Johannesburg). Plus, learn about GATSCA’s mission to grow its membership and support the next generation of controllers—maybe even over a round of golf! Tune in for a fascinating glimpse into the skies of South Africa.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to our podcast IFATCA Spotlight, where we shine a light on a member association and find out what unique insights and expertise each member association brings to the IFATCA family. My name is Thorstrauer, I'm from Germany, and in this episode it's my pleasure to shine a light on South Africa and the local member association GATSCA. Guild of Air Traffic Controllers of South Africa. South Africa is situated at the southernmost tip of the African continent, with its extensive coastline meeting the Atlantic Ocean on the west and the Indian Ocean on the south and east. It has about 63 million citizens from very diverse cultures, which is why there are twelve official languages, one of them being English. The time zone is UTC plus two. But enough about dry facts. We want to know more straight from the source, and today our source is Palisamy. Palisar, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

It's my pleasure to have you, uh Palisa. Let's get one thing straight. I skipped over eleven of the official languages because they are difficult to pronounce for me as a European, as a German to be in this case. Would you please help me? What are the other eleven l official languages of South Africa?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Okay, so it's obviously English, Afrikaans, Southern Sutu, Zebedi, but it's nort Northern Sutu, or Sepedi if you like. Sitsuana, Isizulu, Isthosa, Isindabele, Saidi, Shizonga, Chiveda, and Sign Language.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Thank you so much for helping with that. It's incredibly diverse, and the languages are really cool, and I would have made so many mistakes. So thank you very much for helping me here. And let's jump into it. Pallisa, how did you get into ATC? What got you interested and how did you become an EDCO?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Okay, so how I got into ATC, actually, quite interesting. I joined the South African Air Force after Matrix and where I initially worked at the Water Air Force Base Waterproof, right? Before then I knew nothing about aviation. I knew nothing. You see airplanes, but you don't really know the intricacies of aviation and everything that goes on there. And obviously I became more curious about it. What is air traffic control? What is air traffic control? So I had two options. I then could apply for the air traffic control stream within the military, training there, go through that streamline and everything. And then I got introduced to the ANSP that I that I'm I'm employed at right now. So obviously you go I went on the internet like any other person. I, you know, you start Googling what air traffic control, and then I came across the ANSP in South Africa. And what caught my eye is that they they they offered bursaries, like a bursary program, like a sponsorship program where they absorb you, you they they fund your training until obviously if you're successful, then you train in the company and you work for the company. So that's how I got introduced.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yes, and you were successful. So welcome to the family of ETCOs. Perfect. What was your job at the airbase? Were you already in contact with the ETCOs somehow there?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Not much, actually. So my job was very, very simple. I was what we used to call ground hostess or a ground attendant, right? The gist of it is every day you greet the passengers coming into the military airport. Obviously, it's because it's a military airport. It would be for people that are in the military traveling or government VIPs, the president, vice president, some ministers. What's it used to do? You welcome them in, you help the pilot compile the passenger list, if they if there's an international flight that they're doing to arrange immigrations, make sure their passports are stamped in or out. Because it's a military airport. For example, the president would have their own lounge and his entourage. The vice president and his entourage, you make sure that everybody is in the correct lounges and whatever most of whatever they need is taken care of while they're while they are there.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Love it. And it doesn't sound very military, uh, but of course that's the other side of the military, the government flights and taking care of the guests. Really cool. I would have loved to be greeted by you on the TAMEC and uh sent to a lounge that I would have liked that as well, yes. And uh yeah, you so you got interested into air traffic controlling and you were accepted by the ANSP. Is there some kind of test you had to pass?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Um yes. So you obviously you first apply, you send your stuff through, and the first selection is then you have to go through psychometric testing. They start selecting, obviously, if they're looking, just an example, if they're looking for a hundred and other psychometric, they are nine hundred, then the next filter comes through. That would be the next assessment process, up until they get to their targeted number of recruits that they want.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Okay, right. And so you pass the test, and then where do you have to go for training and what do you train for initially? What's the career you have to go through?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

And the basic entrance is the same. You train at the Aviation Training Academy, which is also owned by the NSP. So it is a bit of a monopoly currently. Uh and then you Yeah, you train at the Aviation Training Academy, you do the Ebenezer training, and everybody does the Ebenezer training at base level. And then if you are streamlining into air traffic control, then everybody starts at becoming an ass you everybody starts as an assistant, right? That's to get everybody's experience up. That's obviously because uh most people are not initially very acquainted with aviation, they don't have enough knowledge. So just to get everybody's experience up, to work it up, because what you do in what you can learn on theory about aviation versus what you would be doing in real life or in the live traffic or two different things. So then they introduce you and you go out to the field, they get your experience before you go on your first EDCO training.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Right. So, first of all, what do you do as an assistant? Like what exactly do you have to do as an assistant? Do you already work with EDCOs or is are you just doing inputs and systems that could be different from country to country?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

So at the at the beginning you don't work with the in with the with the with the EDCOs directly. You don't work like your planner positions yet. So what you would do then is what we call either a filter position or a tower assistant position. You are sending departures into the system, you're recording flight movements, you are tracking all the filed flight plans that come through from our briefing department. So it's basically it's a lot of data managing, data input, all of that initially. So then you you move from that to the the more complex functions or what an assistant would do.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Okay, I understand that. Perfect. And then you show some aptitude, you're good and you're interested. Uh, do you all need to go to another session at the academy before becoming an ETCO?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

No. So once you've once you've done all of the assessments and you are successful to the last one, then you dive straight into the training.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Okay. Okay, like it. And the training being well, if you structured it like that, do you start at Tower first and then you move on to ACC or do are you being selected for either?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Um so in the past, they used to select you for either. So then they said they select you to either start off as a full-time assistant and then you have to reapply to get taken onto any EDCO training if you're interested, or you get recruited to become an EDCO. So even when you're an assistant, you have to work in as an assistant. But it will be very temporary because then you are initially recruited to become an EDCO. But now everybody gets streamlined into start as an assistant, get the experience, then everybody reapplies to become an ed col. Or to go through for ed call training, start automatically to go for any.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Right, right. And then you go to the tower first and then you move on to ACC. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

So you you choose your streamline, right? So not everybody will start, not everybody will start as a tower controller. So you can start at what you can do tower control or you can do what we call flight information services. But depending on what you want you would want to do in the end. If you want to be an enroute controller, you can work either tower or flight information services, and then you get your experience there, and then you later reapply for en route training. Or you can work as a tower controller, and then you can become a terminal controller, or which is what we call approach control, or you can move from tower approach to area control, which is en route control.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Right. And which stream did you choose? Which route did you go personally?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I did do tower training, but then I I also did flight information, which is where I worked. For a bit, I'm trying to remember how long I actually worked. Yes, I worked.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

But you chose the the flight information stream and then you moved to ACC.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

And then then I moved to ACC, yeah. That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Perfect. And this is where we normally move to the association part. So I already mentioned the name once, the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers of South Africa, Gatska. That's a tongue twister. Um, tell us about that. Where is that coming from? What's the history there?

SPEAKER_01 9:41

It's roots from SATKA, which is when back then, right? So the Department of Transport, so the African Department of Transport used to be the ones that managed air traffic control. And then later on, yeah, so that so SATKA existed before the current ANSP was formed. So back then, like I say, air traffic control was man is managed directly by the Department of Transport. So if you were an air traffic controller, you were employed by the Department of Transport and not by the ANSP, which is what later got put into place. So then uh so when the ANSP was then established, Gatska emerged, right? But then initially when Gatska emerged, it emerged as both a professional association and a trade union. Then around 2004, the two were separated, where Gatska then continued as a as a professional association, and then a trade union was employed to only manage labor issues and whatever trade union related matters.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Okay. So you split apart into a traditional federation part, the professional part, and the trade union part.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Trade union part.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Okay, yes. And how big is the association or the guild to be specific? How many members do you have?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

So the member association currently is it's growing. I don't have the exact numbers at hand. So then one of my core roles is trying to get more members into the association, getting uh EDCOs, and because it serves both the EDCOs and the ATSUs, which are ATSOs, sorry, which are our assistants, right? To get them Yeah, because some might have left because uh not everybody understands that the that you can have a trade union and be part of a member association, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

So the numbers Yeah, that's a difficult part of it is, yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

So what we're trying to do now is get more members to come back into the association with them understanding what the association is. Not just what the association is, but what the benefits are of being part of the association. So while I don't have the numbers, what we're currently, like I'm saying, working on now is getting new members in and making sure that because we have quite a few airports fairly split across the country to have solid representation in all of the units, get the numbers up and strike a not a fair balance, because what's a fair balance really?

unknown 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Get the diagnosis back in, yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yes, and it's uh it's really important to hear the professional voice of ETCOs, and that's what the associations are for. Male-female ratio, probably you don't have numbers there, but what's the gist in South Africa? How is the number of air traffic controllers? The percentage, male-female ratio. Do you have any feeling how it's there?

SPEAKER_01 12:31

But the feel, the general feel is in the more junior functions, there is a bit of an even ratio. I wouldn't say 50-50, but this the scale is a bit evenly balanced. And then in the more senior etco functions, I'd say we ha we still have a bit of a male dominance. With obviously now the younger people coming in, the numbers are coming up, but you still have the more senior people where you would have in the past, I'd say, more males in the senior edco edco functions or roles. So now with the younger people coming in, the skill is balancing slightly, but it's still not, I wouldn't say even.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Right. Okay. Uh you went already a little bit into airspace and airports parts. You mentioned you've got uh few airports and they're spaced evenly. How many do you have in South Africa? How many controlled airports?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Twelve at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Okay. And so how are they being serviced? How's the structure? Do you have controlled airspace everywhere or do you have uncontrolled a lot? Just give us an overview and then we talk about the control zones and the arrival routes, the arrival air spaces.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

You have Appington, which doesn't have a terminal zone above it. So there's just a control zone. So then everything around it, everything around it up until Flight Level 195 would be Class G airspace. Uncontrolled.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Okay. That's interesting. That's unusual, yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yes. Uncontrolled, uh, but still worked. Class G still worked by at cause for flight information and every other thing that is required in that airspace. And then we have another one, Pilansburg. And we also have Muffet King, which is also control zones, no terminal areas. Same. Everything around it until flight number 1905 would be uncontrolled airspace. Also, info a service there is provided by ADCOS only for flight information in the northern region. So the Pilansburg Muffet King would be footfall in the northern region, where they would have dedicated assistants working the flight information service. And then in the middle region, you will have ADCOS working flight information services, and then in the southern region towards Cape Town, you again have dedicated assistants working the flight information frequency and airspace.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Why is that? So there's more traffic in the uh middle of South Africa, more viewfall traffic or more uncontrolled traffic?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

I don't um in the northern part of it, because you have a lot of low flyers, so there's more people that fly within the uncontrolled band.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

It's a much busier airspace. So the adcos wouldn't be able to work both the class G and the class C and A.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

But they do it at the same time, right. So it's the other way around basically.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, so in that region, because of the complexity of the airspace and the busyness, it wouldn't be possible.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Right. And um where are you working actually?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Johannesburg. It um or at Tambo. I work enroute. So I work both upper and what we call the CTA. That's just above the terminal area. That's in the three airport, no, I like three, four, there are five airports situated in the two CTAs that we have. They both of them have terminal areas. So then we work the CTA part and the upper part. That's where I work.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

How low do you how low go is the CTA going that you're working there?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

So that the transition is at flight level one uh one five zero. So then the terminal areas go up till flight level one four five. So we have we have an agreement in place, right? So where the terminal controllers will climb only till flight level one four zero and we will descend the traffic going to flight level one five zero. Obviously for the thousand feet separation well done, but the terminal area will go into flight level one four five. And that's where the seat will be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Perfect. And what do you like more, the overflight part or the CTA part?

SPEAKER_01 16:31

You know, I actually enjoy both because the CTA part is a bit more complex, it's a bit more not it's not as predict I don't want to say the overflight part is as predictable. I mean with the we're currently in our weather season, we have a lot of thunderstorms, we have a lot of weather deviation. So I wouldn't say it's practic it's predictable, but it's not as I would say chaos chaotic as what the CTA would be. Well, it's not predictable, it's a bit more busy. There's a bit there's a bit more frequency congestion there. So you it's I enjoy both because on different days you want to do different not different things, but it's a balance, I'd say. Yes, as you said. I definitely enjoy both.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Life is about balance.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

That's I definitely enjoy both.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Do you have like predictable weather patterns? So we are recording in your summertime, or is it just like the thunderstorms are popping up across the mountains and stuff, or do you have like predictable stuff coming from either side of the ocean?

SPEAKER_01 17:31

You know, uh for example like in Johannesburg, right? Almost on a daily thunderstorms start around three, four o'clock in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Right until about six o'clock. So you you know between three and six it can go it can spin either way.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah, and then it starts quieting down again. So there is a bet there is a bit of a pattern to it, but not it's not too predictable, but you can sort of plan, you can plan your day around, you can plan your traffic around it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Okay, so but they're like these local spots that uh just pop up. It's not like squaw lines coming over from the ocean. Okay, that's good. So Palisia, you already we already established that South Africa itself is very diverse, but um the whole region is very diverse. You've got uh lots and lots of coordination partners. For example, you've got uh enclave countries that are being surrounded by South Africa. How do you work with, for example, uh Lesotho?

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Okay, so Lesotho being surrounded completely by South African territory, they only work their tower and their terminal, and then we work there en route. So they work their terminal also until flight four or five, and then we work there in route one four five all the way up.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Oh that's good, that makes sense. That's workable. It's a relief.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Swatini is bordered by South Africa, Mozambique as well. So luckily for them, they don't have all their bound the their borders within South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

So what's different with Eswatini then? So how are they controlling everything?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

No, no, it would be standard coordination as an adjacent sector. So we don't work we also work there en route. Actually, we also work there on route, but they work their terminometer for article one nine five.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

So we only do their upper, we don't do their CTA part. They manage all their tracks of that.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Okay. Because of your geographic location, you work lots of ocean as well. How is that? Uh how do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Do we do that? So also saying we have quite a few coordination centers, obviously because of where South Africa is situated, right at the end, right? So a lot of coordination with South America, a lot of coordination with Mauritius, Madagascar, Australia, with either flights and and and Angola as well. How can I forget Angola? Angola. With all the flights either over flying, in and out, the guys to the South Pole. Um, yeah. Sometimes you get the guys that cut across from the South America, maybe flying to the Middle East or to America.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Well, let's stick to the ocean a little bit. Is it still like people heard in in former times that you just talk on HF radio and you don't see anyone? Or how is it nowadays?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

We still have the HF radio, but because of technology, we have because of most most aircrafts now are ADSB equipped. So if it feels like full surveillance because ADSB basically gives you accurate aircraft in uh positioning, and we've got CPDLC where you can just send a message. Send a message and communication with uh with the aircraft. So no, it's not it's not like ancient times where you only had HF and you had to manually plot the position of the aircraft. So even what I find interesting, even with the guys that don't have CPDLC, a lot of them will come with ADSB, which for me is great. At least I can see where you are and still talk to your HF. Because HF is more now if we're really talking about where technology is going, it's just really now just a backup.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Cool. So it's uh basically like any other airspace now for you. You can really work it like any other perfect. That's the relief. You mentioned the traffic patterns a little bit. What is the are the major traffic flows for South Africa? Uh is it mostly east-west traffic?

SPEAKER_01 21:27

The busiest uh routes actually for the local routes is the route between Cape Town and Johannesburg.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Okay. How high are they climbing the internal flights?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

How uh most of them are high climbers, so anything between three hundred to four four travel four one zero, four three zero. So that that between Johannesburg and Cape Town is actually our busy uh our busiest route.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Okay. Cool. Um that dot dot. And so you mentioned already the division levels, that gave me a clue already. So you're controlling. In feet, is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

That's correct, yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Perfect. And language. Language is an interesting topic in uh South Africa. Which of the many languages did you choose for your ATC language?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

So our ATC language is English. Stock standard English Matthew House. We don't have any other language. Our ATC language is just English.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Okay, that makes it easy. That's a relief that you don't have to speak eleven languages to be to be in ETCO.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

That would be very, very challenging, I must say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Also But you speak sorry, you?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

No, no. No, no, I'm just saying Mike with the with the differences even in the local languages, it would be nearly impossible. So I think sticking to one language that most people can understand, can't speak makes it much safer.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yes, I definitely agree. But you're coming pretty close. You can speak quite a few languages, and uh we're coming to the point where I would like to ask you to pronounce air traffic controller in a local language, or in your case in maybe more than one local language. Which one would you agree to speak to us?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Uh I'll do both Sutu and Zulu. Um Sutu is my home Southern Sutu is my home language, and Zulu is the most spoken local language in the country. It's actually the most spoken language in the country.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

To be exact after English or is it English, yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Because obviously everybody I think speaks English. So the most spoken the most spoken language other than English is right.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Okay. So Southern Soto.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Southern Soto. So air traffic controller in Southern Soto is Mulaula, si piti piti moying.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

That's pretty long, but what does it mean exactly? What's the literal translation?

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Literally air traffic controller. Except when you say it in the vernacular languages, how you would pronounce it is you would read it back to front. So in English you start with air traffic controller, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

In the vernacular languages you start with what so what you do. What do you do? You're a controller.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Yeah. You're controller of tr traffic of the air.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yes, of air traffic.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Traffic of of air traffic.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

And uh Zulu.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

In Zulu. Umlaula is piti piti mwen.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

There was some sounded a little close to be honest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

It's very, very it sounded very similar, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

And it means the same, it's uh just pretty literal as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

It's exact same. Also how you would how you would say it in Zulu versus English, you would also start with what you do.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

So control over Wells Yeah. So that's just an interesting fact about most vernacular languages. Anytime you are describing something and it has to do with a person, you would start with the person's function in whatever you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Honestly, it makes sense. Sounds very logical to me.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Well, I think in English you would probably start with the function itself.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yes. Yes. Uh yeah, it reminds me of the stories about German being such a stupid language because we always put the verb at the end so nobody knows what we're talking about until we finish the sentence. At work in your ACC, do you have the four-eye principle? Do you work in uh planner executive pairs? Or how is the assistant playing into that?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Okay, so it's not the so it's not executives, especially in the en route sectors, right? That's where I work. So you would have a planner, but they can't make executive decisions because they're not air traffic controllers. So planners are worked by assistants. So more or less, yeah. So more or less the four-eye principle, just that they can't make executive decisions.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

And they would mostly have the coordination part of it and not really the con the controlling function. Where if you had an executive, an executive could make whatever executive call pertaining traffic.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yes. It's definitely one of the challenges of uh having two EDCOs work on the same sector because they always have to be on the same page. And that's that's one of the challenges if you want to switch from um a single-person uh system to a two-person system, two echo system. What do you think would be the advantage of having your system with the assistance?

SPEAKER_01 26:15

I think both work. Because if you have either way, if you have an executive being an air traffic controller sitting on the planner position, right? Example, it gets so you have sectors collapsed. Maybe it wasn't really busy, so you collapse sectors and you're working on one one controller position. Sometimes ATCs drow. Well, they're drowning. They're extremely overwhelmed, they're extremely busy, but they don't have the time to make the call to say, hey, call an additional body quickly to come and split another sector. Whereas a planner or an assistant cannot make the call. Up until they can't go find an additional body, up until the ATC says, hey, but sometimes you're too busy. You're on frequency, you need to, you know, you're you're managing traffic, you you're transmitting the whole time, you're coordinating, you're whatever you're doing, there is no time to actually make the call. But if there's an executive position, they can make the call for you. Because they would know or they would have the authority in that moment to make that call impacting safety. So I I think it's a bit of both. And if you have like like you said, if you have a planner being an assistant working at that time, there's no there's no clash of the egos, I guess, if you want to say. So it's yeah, so it's half half.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Mm-hmm. Well, may maybe it's easier to get into the job when you can kind of dip your toes into the air traffic controllers world by being an assistant first, and then that might be good for recruiting, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Absolutely. There's um a lot of there's only so much you can do in SINS. Reference, training and edcore, right? So if you also have the assistants working the planner positions, the amount of experience they accumulate before they go on control courses, before they become ATCs, because they sat in in that seat for so long, even though they couldn't transmit or make executive decisions, but they already have an idea. Life traffic simulator is a bit different.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Definitely. Yes. And um if something goes wrong, you might be in need of some support, which is uh which we call uh critical incident stress management or SISM short. Uh do you have that?

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Oh, absolutely. Yes. So NSP uh does 100% have SISM in place. So it supports SISM, there's policies in place. It provide training, it provide what is this? They provide the necessary support and the funding with regards to SISM, so that isn't an issue at all.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

That's a huge relief. That's really good to hear. And uh thanks to the ANSP for supporting that as well. Um So talking about the future, future in South Africa or future in your member association, what's on the horizon? What would you like to talk to us about, Palisia? What's uh in the pipeline?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Interestingly enough, the member association is planning golf day. No dates have been released yet, no formal communication has been released yet. I hope they don't kill me for speaking about this prematurely, but it's something that is in the pipeline. So basically, mostly to raise funds for especially uh new members for conferences, for exposure, for whatever, but basically to raise funds predominantly for new members, which I think is brilliant. Because, for example, conferences, it's very expensive attending these conferences. You don't always have a fund. But imagine if you could get a new person because especially the younger people that are still joining them the organization, the member associations, they are essentially the future of the MS. They're the future of the NSPs, they're the future of air traffic control. How better to get them while they're still new? Because believe it or not, you're gonna retire, I'm gonna retire, and then who's gonna be left?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

True. We need new recruits for the associations as well, definitely. So is South Africa a golf country? Is it a big th a huge thing?

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Golf. It is you know what? Well I uh in the in in the past I wouldn't have said it is, but golf is on the rise. But we're based we're mostly a soccer and a rugby country. Cricket as well, you know, a cricket, brilliant. But we are soccer and rugby through and through.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

But golf is on the rise.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

So maybe you should it's a bit of an elite sport, so I mean not everybody can afford to play golf. It is a bit of an elite sport.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Well, if you want to r uh want to raise funds, that's uh where you need to go, where the money is sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yes, yeah, that's what I'm I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yeah. Uh maybe you can invite uh Ed COS from other countries to join you on the on the golf day. That would be a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

We'll start with all the Edcos from Germany.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Our ANSP wouldn't be that happy if uh everybody leaves for South Africa for to play golf.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

You guys could you really said you guys are very decisive. So We'll send out the invite, you guys can decide immediately who stays who stays on the roster, who comes to South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

That's true. That's true. One thing we can do as Germans is make plans, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

You see. Maybe we'll invite the Belgians as well. A little team if you know what? A little team building.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

An international team building, exactly. Polisa, uh thank you for giving us the overview and almost giving us the invitation to join the golf tournament. Thank you for being with me, giving us an overview, and let's go and move to the uh local language. Goodbye. Are you gonna speak your native language, Southern Susa?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Okay, so in I I'll translate at the end. All right. Translation, thank you, and thank you for having me on the podcast. Have a lovely day further, and I really hope you enjoy the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

I did definitely enjoy the interview, and it was it's so funny to to hear language that's so foreign and then having the word podcast pop up in the middle. It's uh really funny.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

That's all you hear.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah, exactly. My my ear goes, oh, I know that word. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

I know what she's saying, I know what she's saying.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah. Thank you so much. Everybody, enjoy the podcast. Pallisa, have a great day. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Cheers.