Episode 2 - Dr Will Maginness

Join Roz as she discusses the pet food industry with Dr. Will Maginness. Owner and founder of 5 hounds. In what is arguably an episode between competing pet companies join these two as the unite for a discussion about collaboration, supporting other brands doing ethics practices and putting animals first.

To find more about Australian Pet Nutrition join us here:

www. australianpetnutrition.com.au
Find us on instagram, facebook and tiktok - @australianpetnutrition

To meet Dr. Will and his 5 hounds brand
@5hounds.bydrwill
www.5hounds.com.au

To follow and connect with Dr. Roz and Australian Pet Nutrition
Follow on socials - @australianpetnutrition or connect for education, nutraceuticals, food and more at australianpetnutrition.com.au

Chapters

• 2:04 Passion for Fresh Feeding and Animal Health
• 6:42 The Power of Anecdotal Evidence
• 15:44 Educating on Pet Nutrition and Ethical Sourcing
• 23:26 Launching Five Hounds: A Revolution in Pet Food
• 29:18 The Impact of Animals: Harry and the Golden Labrador

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the show. This week I'm really excited to have Dr. Will McGuinness on the show. I was asked earlier in the year by a mutual colleague if I'd like to connect with Dr. Will as we shared lots of similar beliefs about animals. Now, I must admit I was hesitant as there's lots of people in the pet industry for the wrong reasons. Within the first five minutes of talking to Dr. Will, he used the words, animals first. And well, the rest is history. I knew this would be a lasting professional friendship

and his intentions about helping animals live their best lives were pure. Dr. Will is not only a vet and an animal lover, he's a passionate farmer turning his knowledge of animals and their health into a dog feeding revolution with his soon to launch pet food company, Five Hounds. Welcome Dr. Will to Raw Truth, Real Health.

Will (00:52)
Thank you very much, Dr. Oz. I'm very excited to be here. You know, it's been a great connection between me and you, and I ditto everything that you've just introduced me. I think we've got a long -lasting relationship ahead in the real food game.

Dr. Roz (01:08)
Yeah, and I think it's important just to touch on that. For me, in the pet health industry, it doesn't matter if you've got multiple people selling pet food, if it's a great product, we should celebrate everyone's businesses.

I think that's pretty bold of us to be on the same podcast promoting two different companies that we own, but it's really about the product and what it does for animals. So I'm really excited to see Five Hounds hit the shells or hit the websites, so to speak.

Will (01:38)
Yeah, no, thank you. And absolutely, I agree. And I think we're all in it for the right reasons. Well, most of us, I should say, because I've had a few interesting discussions over the time of my short journey in the business game. But at the end of the day, we're all here for the dogs and we're doing the best for the dogs. And we want the dog's health to be the priority. And I think the more of us getting into the real food game, the better and the more dogs lives we can change.

Dr. Roz (02:04)
Yeah, awesome. So let's start there. So I think everyone in the fresh food game has like an origin story. So tell us about your origin story into the fresh feeding world for particularly dogs.

Will (02:18)
It's a good question. And I think there's not one pinpoint moment where I go, yep, this is me. This is raw. This makes sense. It's kind of been a journey throughout my whole life and going way back and I'm not going to ramble and go on tangents. But I was a professional footballer, funny enough, for a very short period of my life. And that's, you know, I was quite passionate about my body and

hitting an elite target and being very in tune with myself. And that's when I really realized from a human perspective that everything that I'm putting into my body changes the way I feel, how the way I can play, how the way, you know, my body reacts. I'm not lethargic. I was at my top performance. And then when you put processed food in, then it's the complete opposite. So that was when I started going down my own journey of health and then bring dogs into it. And animals have just been my, my passion well before football and

Football is a very short career. I prioritized that early because I know I could have had a life of veterinary for a lot longer than football. And I went down, you know, my first dog was Harry, a golden Labrador. Then I went to Monty and I actually started feeding Harry raw food, probably about, yeah, 10 years ago, I think. And I was passionate. I was making it myself. was balancing it myself.

and then I went into the veterinary space and started, I guess, studying to be a veterinarian. And there's a few kind of elements that steered me away from raw feeding, was, yeah, interesting. I guess it was, the education, obviously having Hills Royal Cannon just flooded everywhere, banded everywhere. being a university student, was probably.

Dr. Roz (04:00)
Thanks.

Will (04:09)
I was studying, studying, studying. So that kind of time period that I would put to batching up big recipes was taken away from me. And obviously the cost of it too, I was very poor as a university student. So I'm ashamed to say that I went down the kibble route for a time, probably a couple of years during veterinary school. And I swapped Monty, my dog back onto kibble. And yeah, looking back, just wholeheartedly regret that and very ashamed of it. But then,

In 2020, I went on a year trip around Australia in a caravan. And this was the moment though, I just said, all right, we were fishing every day. We took three dogs, Monte, Cooper and Odie. And they were eating fresh raw fish all day every day, fresh produce. We were living our best lives on the beach with the sun and the sea. And they were eating some high quality nutrients like coral trout, everything that is just insane to think back on.

And then I started seeing the benefits in them. And that was the moment where I went back to university after the year off and I was just proud and just out and about about this raw, real food, feeding. So yeah, it's a twisted kind of journey. It's not one pinpoint moment, but as you can probably tell, I'm bloody passionate about it.

Dr. Roz (05:20)
Thank

Yeah, and I think that's what matters. And I don't think any journey on any health or anything is ever straightforward. You know, it's like one step forward, two steps back. We go forward again. But when you went back to vet school with this sort of like, you found passion around feeding, what was the reception from your fellow students? Were they kind of like, well, you're a bit woohoo, or was it semi -received? Like, okay, well, it's food, so let's do it or not?

Will (05:54)
Yeah, like, it's a mixed reaction. You always kind of feel on the outer for sure. And not included in the discussion a little bit. But I, you know, I was so certain in my mind and stuck to my guns. And I think that's all that really matters. Like I just come back to being a veterinarian, we're based off science. That's what it is. We look at scientific journals.

We read peer reviewed articles, all that. And there's still not one study saying kibble is better for dogs than real food. I, you know, having that on the back of my shoulder going, all right, well, yeah, I hear you, absolutely. But show me the scientific evidence. There's zero to kind of prove that. So yeah, I'm quite confident in my position in the space.

Dr. Roz (06:42)
Yeah, and that's true. And I think there's a fine line with science too, that science then needs to, we need to go out and experience the science so we can read all these studies and then we need to sort of apply that to our own practice as well. It sounds like you've had a lot of that experiential side to the science of feeding really.

Will (07:02)
Yeah, no, absolutely. I am. Yeah, I, you're right. There's there's two levels to that. And yes, science is great. I'm a big believer in it. But if you really look behind the curtains and dig deep enough, then there's a bias in every scientific journal there has to be scientific journals cost a lot of money. Who's finding it? I think if you dig deep enough, you discover a few things that you probably wish you never had. But

Putting the science aside is there's nothing stronger in my mind about anecdotal evidence. It is just everything. You know, I can read an article, but until I see it with my own eyes and the power of what that is doing, you just truly can't really believe it. So, and that's what I'm saying to a lot of people at the moment and the audience that I'm building on social media is people are having these incredible stories and

keep telling those stories because they are a lot more powerful than scientific journals or articles because they have merit. That's people's personal stories of the power of fresh food feeding. So, yeah.

Dr. Roz (08:12)
100%. You're on the money and you know, as you know, I come from an academic background and I sat on many editorial panels where we purely rejected brilliant studies because they didn't fit the goals of the journal. So we can, you know, we can actually dismiss really great studies purely because it doesn't meet the goals of whoever funded that journal. So you're right. You're right in saying that we should always have like an air of hesitancy with anything but

We can't discredit people's lived experience and that's really, really important. So I must say you have become very popular on social media of late, which I think is fantastic because I think the more we share and get people engaged in education and pet health and feeding the better. Do you feel like that platform is...

made you more included in the veterinary profession as a fresh food advocate or do you still feel like you're on the outer because you're pro fresh food?

Will (09:16)
When I really think about I actually don't really care. But no, the platform, the social media platform is just insane. It's crazy the power of social media. And thinking back, I was doing, you know, 10 to 12 consults a day with dogs, speaking about nutrition, speaking about the power of this fresh food. And

Dr. Roz (09:23)
Awesome, we love that.

Will (09:42)
I was having an impact on those 10 to 12 dogs a day. And I was very proud of that. And then one morning I woke up and I said, why don't I try and have a bigger impact spread this awareness even further. And it was, I was feeling a little bit, yeah, I guess, ballsy to do it. bit hesitant, bit nervous. but in hindsight, it's the best thing I've ever done because we're building this really nice community of passionate people. And going back to your question,

Am I on the adder or you know, I'm every day I'm getting contacted by vets. And that is just awesome. That's what it's all about. Because vets have such a power over what people feed their dogs. It's just a matter of fact, whether they've got the education behind them to be able to have that power, people listen to vets. I, yeah, vets are coming out of the woodwork, they're asking how can they get involved? How can they start feeding fresh food? Where am I learning all my where my resources any books to read?

So I think we're a growing community. Yeah, the movement's pretty strong and I feel very satisfied in the place that we're at.

Dr. Roz (10:48)
Yeah, I think that's fantastic and no one's ever an expert in anything. So I think that's great that people are contacting you wanting to learn more because the more we learn, you know, the more those studies are going to increase and we're going to, you know, sort of outweigh those scales on kibble versus raw food studies. Although I think we're there already. I think over the last five years, the raw food studies coming out are tenfold over kibble because there's that sort of stealth movement overseas and Australia, we catch up eventually.

Will (10:56)
Mm

Yeah, no, you're spot on. You're behind the times.

Dr. Roz (11:20)
Yeah, exactly. So when it comes to pet health, pet nutrition, what do you see as your biggest frustration that you kind of just sometimes in a nice way want to get pet parents and just give them a little nudge or a shake and be like, I just wish you knew and understood this. What is that pot of wisdom?

Will (11:42)
my biggest frustration, I like going back to what I said, it's, it's common sense that fresh whole foods is the best for our dog. so it's common sense that it makes sense, but why aren't we pushing it more? My frustration comes back to probably educational based. think there's a very, very, very few numbers of pet parents that still believe that chicken, white rice and sweet potato is hitting a dog's nutritional requirements. And then

those very rare cases are seen at the emergency vets because they've got nutritional deficiencies, they've got bone fractures because of that diet that they've been placed on. And that is what I believe, if I really think about it, why are going down? Why are vets still advocating for kibble? And I think it's probably just because of that reason. There's no other reason that I can really think of that would make a vet go, it's better for a dog. So

It's the few numbers that aren't educated or aren't upskilling themselves that are probably preventing and stalling and stalling kind of the movement of fresh food feeding. So that's my frustration, but that's where my inner burn comes from because it's all about educating. And that's what I'm doing on my platform. And that's why I'm just pushing it so hard is yes, you know, it's all about fresh food feeding, there's got to be a little bit of common sense to it and education around it too.

Dr. Roz (13:08)
Definitely and I mean nutritional deficiencies are a risk at any point but it's actually quite simple to resolve you know if you're working with someone who knows you know if just looking at someone like a dog's diet and you go right okay well we're not getting leafy greens they're probably not getting choline we're probably not getting iodine let's just add in you know something simple as some kelp powder and voila you know so it's it's also I think taking the

Will (13:14)
Mm

Dr. Roz (13:35)
the fear out of the challenge of balancing food. If you know what you're doing, it's pretty easy. I think once other vets sort of cotton onto that, how much easier it will be to share that kind of knowledge as well.

Will (13:51)
Yeah, no, I and that's a really tough balance for me right now is I need to from my personal page perspective is I'm pushing everyone to fresh food feeding. I'm trying to educate heavily around that. But I don't want to scare anyone that making a complete and balanced diet is the be all and end all because we can achieve that over time with variety. And that's what it comes down to to me. It's about variety of foods that will achieve that.

So yeah, that's something I'm actually personally having a little bit of difficulty to have a strong enough education and push, but also bring people back a little bit.

Dr. Roz (14:25)
Yeah, it's a fine balance and I think it's the same thing. We're all learning as we go how to share our knowledge that we have all these like ideas and what we want to share in our head, but it's how do we capture that for a really broad audience of pet owners who probably have lots of different health conditions that they're juggling. So yeah, it's a fine line between how to juggle that, I think. So on that, where do you think, you know,

Will (14:45)
Mm

Yeah.

Dr. Roz (14:54)
We, and I use the we term globally, are really sort letting our pets down when it comes to nutrition. So maybe when you've been talking to owners and they tell you what they're feeding, what do you think like the number one thing is where we're letting them down in that area of improving their overall nutrition?

Will (15:10)
where we as professionals are letting them down?

Dr. Roz (15:13)
think let's answer it as professionals, if it takes us, who knows?

Will (15:15)
Yeah. Yeah. I think as professionals, we have a duty to educate at the first point of call that we have with a dog and their pet parent. And that comes back to the eight to 12 week puppy vaccination. That's our moment as a profession to put all our time into preventative medicine going forward to

that dog's longevity. They need to be increased time of a consultation. Too often they're too rushed and I get it, we're understaffed, there's too many pets. There's lots of issues within the veterinary industry alone, but that's where we really need to hone in into let's do everything and educate on everything to prevent this dog coming back to us because that's gonna help the veterinary industry from an understaffed point of view. And that's where we have the most power. If you've got a dog,

let's get them onto some variety of food, some fresh food. So I think that's probably where I think we could have the most impact, but also where we're failing. think it's education, sorry, nutrition at that consultation is only very touched on. And it's probably more about quantity of food rather than the quality.

Dr. Roz (16:32)
And it's so true when you think about that age of a dog, you know, that's when their immune system is forming, that's when they're growing. So we're talking about, you know, if we've got a large breed dog, how important that growth is and how monitoring that growth is really important so we can, you know, make sure that there's not deficiencies when we get a large breed dog and things like that. And I agree, there's so many issues that we could probably...

Will (16:40)
Mm

Dr. Roz (16:59)
wax lyrical about in the vet industry. And I don't think anyone's got an answer to how we solve the shortages and all those kinds of things. But I think that's what platforms are for. And vets feeling like they can then unrefer to people who've got the time to take longer or who've got courses for pet parents around improving their knowledge. So they don't feel like they have to do everything in a 15 minute consult. So I think this is what we're trying to do in a way to go, hey, we're here, we're here to help.

Don't stress, you don't have to cram everything into a 15 minute consult, but if we set these puppies up from the beginning, unfortunately, they may never see us again. So maybe that does solve some of the scheduling issues in clinics, but that's probably something to consider. Like, my God, if we didn't have to see these repeat offenders of sick pets in the clinic because we got their nutrition right from the beginning, that would be pretty awesome.

Will (17:40)
Yeah.

No, I think you've nailed it too. And it's just, you can't be an expert at everything as you previously said. And in veterinary medicine, there's just way too much to know and it's daunting and it's overwhelming. So we do need to start following the human kind of trend of, you know, we break out into specialties and you see a different vet for a different reason. Because it's very easy to get stuck up on the life threatening diseases of animals and dogs and cats.

and then you kind of miss the basics, I think, because your head's just so ingrained into trying to learn and you just never know everything. And that's the beauty of you just every day you're learning more and more. Yeah.

Dr. Roz (18:40)
Yep, I love it. Do you have any other sort of tips that you've been thinking of at night while you've been having piglets at the farm where you're like, I must mention this to pet owners.

Will (18:55)
Not off the top of my head, as I said before we went live is I'm feeling very sleep deprived. I've been out in the barn, had a couple of nights out there with freshly born piglets and it's been an experience that I've never experienced before. It's been amazing, but also heartbreaking at the same time. And we unfortunately lost a couple of piglets yesterday morning, but life is cruel.

and farming is bloody tough but yeah no sorry i don't have any wisdom in regards to the dog this morning

Dr. Roz (19:28)
It's the elements when it comes to farming and animals can be so unpredictable. But I will sort of hone in on the farm a little bit because I think also living on a farm and you watch farm animals, right? What do we feed farm animals? And we just don't interfere with what that has been for so many years is species appropriate food that is actually pretty much whole food when we think about it.

And that always sort of astounds me. It's like, why did we mess it up with dogs and cats? And we nailed it with farm animals from the beginning.

Will (20:07)
Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, no, the farm definitely keeps me on my toes, but you're right. And this also comes back to the actual end product that you feed your dogs. obviously, as blunt as it is, animals feed our dogs. And the quality of food that those animals have eaten goes to the quality of the food that our dogs are eating. So the animals eating a species appropriate diet, so the cows, past their age, the lamb, past their age, all that type of stuff.

I guess the follow on effect to our dogs is paramount. So, yeah, I'm saying that firsthand that, you know, not that some people like me admitting that we do farm lamb and chickens ourselves for our own human consumption and our dogs do tuck in and all that and the quality just, yeah, is insane. yeah, as you said, I think it's all comes down to a species appropriate diet and none of these animals are home processed foods.

Dr. Roz (21:04)
No, and I think too, part of educating people about feeding is really educating them about the supply chain and where all this raw food and whole food ingredients come from. And unfortunately, there is an ethical component to that.

If we want to feed animals, have to understand where that's coming from. And that's what I love about sharing stuff on the farm and what you're sharing is it's giving that starting point. Like this is where it all starts. And that's important to understand too, because it's not without a conscious choice that we understand that we are feeding other animals to our pets as well. But unfortunately, not everyone.

Will (21:34)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Dr. Roz (21:47)
sees that part of the supply chain. They see the end product, but there's a lot before that. So I think it's great.

Will (21:53)
Yeah, and it's a fine balance as well. And my mum often tells me to tone it back because a lot of people want to dissociate themselves from actually what they're feeding their dog. That it's not an animal, which, know, everyone each to their own. And all I'm trying to do is just make sure that the animals that end up in that feed our dog, I guess it's a well respected treated with the same amount of care.

from start to finish that our dogs get because everyone's equal. Yeah, so it's a fine line on how much you share, how much you educate around that. But I think it's important that people start understanding because then you can make conscious decisions on where you're spending your money.

Dr. Roz (22:38)
Yep, and we can still advocate for animal welfare and ethical animal practice, even though we are putting animal products in our food. And that's a big thing for me. Like, I totally respect vegetarianism and veganism, but we can be really respectful about where we source our food and ensure that's like a humane ethical process. It takes time to get that information and source those parts of the supply chain, but...

it can be done. So on that, let's spend a little bit of time talking about five pounds. So tell us where it's at, what's been part of your sort of like creative process, just give us the juice on it.

Will (23:09)
Yeah.

Hahaha!

the juice. We are probably about one month away from launching, hope fingers crossed depends when this podcast goes live, of course. All right, awesome. We match it up the same day. We are Yeah, about one month off. It's been an absolute journey. Some days I wake up and I go, why the hell am I doing this? This is just wild. But other days, I'm as passionate as ever. I think

Dr. Roz (23:35)
Probably at the same time, it'll be a celebration of five hounds.

Will (23:56)
Yeah, I'm taking on something that's quite almighty. And I've got some really good people around me now, which is helping a huge amount. I think the thing that's probably stalled me and slowed up the whole process is what we're just talking about, ethical sourcing. And it's quite rare in the industry for companies to go as to the finite detail that I'm trying to do and trying to achieve. And there's a few issues on that. And sometimes a few people close to me say, why do you have such strong values in the space?

it comes back to, know, I'm as passionate about farming as I am about dog nutrition. So kind of putting all those passions together is the dream business of mine. So yeah, we're getting close. There's a few little issues just to iron out. And then we're gonna launch and I'm very excited and manufacturing is all sorted. Just tweaking a little bit of the branding and

Yeah, we're releasing four recipes. I'm happy to announce that, Roz, a little, Tesla.

Dr. Roz (24:54)
Very exciting. And you're going down the lightly cooked route, is that correct?

Will (24:59)
Yeah, so we're lightly cooking in a sous vide machine, which is, yeah, I think it's, I probably shouldn't say this, but because I'm actually not 100 % sure, but I think it's an Australian first in regards to dog food. So I'm quite passionate about our manufacturing in how we treat the meat at a temperature that's very specific at a specific time. And it's very lightly cooked. I'm an advocate for

real food and that includes raw and lightly cooked as long as it's minimally processed, we're getting, you know, those high quality nutrients into a dog. So I've gone the lightly cooked route. And yeah, I'm pretty excited and also a little bit nervous about launching the business.

Dr. Roz (25:43)
I think the nerves will certainly soon convert to excitement. I just want to backtrack a little bit because pretty much how you and I met and I guess bonded was really around this kind of ethical sourcing. And I wanted to say that it is really rare that companies go into the detail that you do and what we did as well. And we'll just.

We've just pulled the pin, you know, if I get a hint of unethical practice or things like that, we have just pulled whole lines off the shelves. And I think that's important for companies to stand up for that, because in a way that's us standing up for the animals. And it's not about mass producing to get quality pet food. It's really like holding.

ethical standards. And I remember when I was a kid, my dad always said to me, you know, if you compromise on your ethics once, you'll never, you've sold your soul and you can never buy your soul back. And every time I make a decision in the business, my dad's in my head going like, don't sell your soul. And it's hard because, because you go, I want to bring a product to market. And I want to do it as quickly as possible because you know, obviously it's a business model. But

Will (26:47)
Yeah.

Dr. Roz (26:58)
what expense do we do that in terms of our values and our ethics for the brand? So I think it's a kudos to you that you've actually held really strong on that because it's easy to bow to that pressure. So I'm so excited for this that I think I've got the excitement that you have. But I know I was so excited when we launched and it's about 12 months ago that we did that. So like it just, it's just going to grow. can see that for you. So we always end the show with

Will (27:15)
Yeah

Thank you.

Dr. Roz (27:27)
The same question for everyone. And it's probably like one of the highlights actually. But I say everyone has like at some point in their life, they've had an animal of any kind, whether it's dog, cat, pig, whatever, that's literally like just changed your life in some way, whether it's changed it, the path or trajectory you're on, or it's made you rethink something in your life. So what was the animal? What was their name? And what's, how did they change it? Everything for you.

Will (27:55)
Wow. First of all, I've had every animal under the sun and I currently own every animal under the sun. This farm is way too overstocked. I'm probably ashamed to admit that we got way too many animals and we rescue way too many animals. But if I was going to pinpoint one, it's probably Harry, my golden Labrador that I was gifted as a birthday present at the age of maybe 10, I think. prior to those, that year,

I'd had guinea pigs, birds, quails, rabbits, mice, like all the small, you know, exotic pets. And my parents were just a bit hesitant about getting me a dog. Cause my older brother, wasn't too into animals. And I just came out with, I just want a fluffy toy of every animal under the sun. And Harry, yeah. So my, my grandfather, Bruce actually convinced my parents to purchase a dog for me, Harry, which was bloody special. he's, and,

Dr. Roz (28:41)
you

Will (28:52)
May I touch on my granddad just quickly? He's had an incredible and profound impact on my life from an animal perspective. So I've got to owe him a little bit too. But Harry came into my life at 10. He was my everything, know, just a childhood dream pet. That's when I was really ramping up my football career as well and getting passionate about playing football and he would come to every game.

he kind of became the laugh of the football team because how athletic he was for a Labrador, but also how gifted he was, was catching the ball and chasing the ball. And he was just obsessed in that. So Harry's definitely the one animal that really solidified in my mind that animals were going to be my life forever. And I was going to chase every path. And I remember telling mom that I wanted to be a farmer. I just wanted to be a farmer because of Harry. And in the end I've become a farmer and a veterinarian. So.

Dr. Roz (29:25)
Thanks.

you

Will (29:46)
It's a very nice touch, but yeah, he's definitely the one that really sticks out.

Dr. Roz (29:51)
Yeah, I love it. And everyone's story is so different. But they do permeate our lives. And I think there's really not a story about an animal that's done something bad in our lives. There's always a glimmer of hope from animals. So that's an awesome story. And we can't forget your granddad either. That's awesome as well.

Thank you so much. I have had so much fun filming this episode. I can't wait to make it live and I think it probably will go live when Five Hounds launches. So that's quite serendipitous for you. But all the best for anyone wanting to connect with Will, find out more about Five Hounds. We will put all the information on how you can get in touch with Will and purchase his food and hear all about his knowledge in the show notes. So thanks Will.

Will (30:44)
Awesome. Thank you so much, Roz. That was very fun.