Episode 5 - The Beef with Beef

Eric Barker, an award-winning journalist specializing in agriculture, joins Dr. Roz to discuss the supply chain and environmental impact of the cattle industry. They explore the limited awareness and understanding that pet owners and the general public have about where their pet food and food come from. Eric shares his personal history in the cattle industry and emphasizes the importance of journalists having a good understanding of the industry. They discuss the export market for Australian beef and the role of small to medium-sized cattle producers. The concept of carrying capacity and its impact on sustainability is also explored. The conversation delves into the debate surrounding methane emissions from livestock and the need for accurate measurement metrics. They question the validity of studies on the impact of methane on the environment and the focus on the beef industry. The episode concludes with a discussion on studies that claim red meat is carcinogenic and the need for more nuanced research. The conversation explores the challenges and controversies surrounding the meat industry, including the validity of scientific studies and the impact of meat consumption on health and the environment. It highlights the errors and lack of corrections in studies such as the Global Burden of Disease and the Eat Lancet diet. The conversation also discusses the role of science in forming policy and the need for a more balanced perspective on meat production and consumption. The Dublin Declaration, signed by scientists from Europe and Australia, recognizes the essential role of meat and livestock in the planet and aims to challenge the prevailing narrative of reducing meat consumption. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the need for accurate information and transparency in the industry.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Background to Beef
• 6:04 The Export Market for Australian Beef
• 8:40 The Role of Small to Medium-Sized Cattle Producers
• 13:06 Understanding Carrying Capacity and Sustainability
• 19:02 The Debate on Methane Emissions from Livestock
• 22:48 The Focus on the Beef Industry and the Big Beef Concept
• 26:13 The Controversy Surrounding Claims of Red Meat Carcinogenicity
• 27:12 Controversies in Scientific Studies
• 30:13 13 The Role of Science in Policy Formation
• 32:44 The Dublin Declaration: Challenging the Narrative
• 37:20 Critiques of Current Metrics and Grouping of Emissions
• 43:30 Transparency and Challenges in the Industry

Transcript

Dr. Roz (00:01)
Hello and welcome to the next episode of Raw Truth, Real Health. Today I have Eric Barker. Eric Barker is an award -winning journalist who specialises in agriculture. Eric currently works for the beef industry news website called Beef Central and is the editor of the organisation's Ag Carbon Central page. Eric started with Beef Central in 2021 following five years in the ABC's rural department based out of both Mount Isa and Cairns.

Eric Barker (00:25)
Thanks for having me, Roz. It's a privilege.

Dr. Roz (00:31)
Welcome to the show, Eric. Thanks for having me, Roz, it's a privilege. Now, you're probably wondering why I've got Eric here for an episode of Raw Truth, Real Health, a podcast about pets and the pet industry. But here's the thing, the majority of pet owners have very limited awareness of the understanding of the supply chain in which their pet food or maybe even their food comes from.

Nor do many people understand the role that animals that we use for consumption have on the environment and beyond what we're told in the mainstream. We've not been given many counter opinions or challenged current views that are out there. So Eric's here with us today after spending many years following this from a journalistic perspective to help us unpack the mystery of this and hopefully get us challenging some perspectives.

So let's just start Eric with a little bit of your history in the cattle industry and your interest in it as a journalist.

Eric Barker (01:35)
Yeah, well, thanks, Ros, and so I grew up in Charleville, which is southwest Queensland in the heart of cattle country in Australia. so we grew up in town, but my grandparents had a cattle property about an hour from town. So it was always part of our lives growing up. And then I sort of went away and traveled for a while and went to uni. But before I traveled, I went up to the Northern Territory where you are. So I'd always been around.

Dr. Roz (01:56)
I went to uni. Before I traveled I went up to the Northern Territory where you are. I've always been around the cattle industry by the time I finished my journalism degree. I guess I always thought of the people in the cattle industry as my people. Since I've been in the industry, think the thing that I really enjoy about it is its importance. It's food, it's land, it's challenging.

Eric Barker (02:05)
the cattle industry by the time I'd finished my journalism degree. And I guess I always sort of thought of the people in the cattle industry as my people. But since I've been in the industry, I think the thing that I really enjoy about it is its importance. You know, it's food, it's land, it's a challenging industry. I genuinely believe it's an industry that needs journalists to have a good understanding of it.

Dr. Roz (02:25)
industry.

have a good understanding of. Yeah and that's interesting and would you say that it's not something that every journalist really has a good understanding of or even the general public really understands the role our cattle industry plays in the country? Yeah and I think that comes with the territory a little bit you know so much of our population lives in major population centres Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane where there is no cattle industry around.

Eric Barker (02:46)
Yeah, and I think that comes with the territory a little bit. know, so much of our population lives in the major population centres, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, where there is no cattle industry around and there's less and less people living in rural areas. I guess it is just what happens. There might be a few issues that come up occasionally that drive a bit of a wedge in between those two sides of the population, but

Dr. Roz (03:00)
there's less and less people living in rural areas. So I guess it is just what happens. There might be a few issues that come up occasionally that drive a bit of a wedge in between those two sides of the population. But definitely, I think you do sort of notice that in the media at times that perhaps isn't a very good understanding. And I think that's important to note. You've obviously grown up.

Eric Barker (03:15)
Definitely, I think you know you do sort of notice that within the media at times that perhaps isn't a very good understanding of the industry

Dr. Roz (03:27)
on a cattle, on a cattle, with family from cattle stations. But seeing how cattle is produced, how cattle are farmed plays a big role in understanding the role they play for people who actually do live in city centres because arguably that's where a large portion of consumption happens. Yes, and it's also, I think that's something I've probably learned a lot about over the years. I've never really used this.

Eric Barker (03:47)
Yes. And it's also, I think that's something I've probably learned a lot about over the years. I never really used to think about it too much. I always just used to think of meat as something that was, you know, yummy. I think it's also just like a really important food as well as something we're learning more and more about, you know, just the role it's kind of played in developing humans to where they are now. And, you know,

Dr. Roz (03:55)
I it's also just like a really important food as well. It's something we're learning more and more about. Just the role that's kind of played in developing humans to where they are now.

Eric Barker (04:17)
some important sources of nutrients in diets that are hard to get if you don't have it.

Dr. Roz (04:17)
some important sources of nutrients in diets that are hard to get if you don't have it? Yeah and that's a really good point Eric because we talk about it a lot here from a pet perspective that in particular beef has some of the most important minerals so macro and micronutrients when we look at a diet that we just can't get from things like plants things like legumes or other protein types.

So let's hone in on this idea of consumption. Do you know, or can you give us some figures on how much of the Australian sort of cattle production stays for domestic consumption and how much do we actually export? So the overwhelming majority of beef is exported. the A -bears, which is like the federal government commodity analysts.

Eric Barker (04:58)
So the overwhelming majority of beef is exported. So the A -bears, is like the federal government commodity analysts, they say that 78 % of Aussie beef is exported and that's probably around their give or take depending on the global situation. So the majority of that export is boxed beef. So it's processed in Australia and then sent overseas as beef.

Dr. Roz (05:08)
They say that 78 % of Aussie beef is exported and that's probably around there, depending on the global situation. So the majority of that export is boxed beef. So it's processed in Australia and then sent over, seized as beef. Some of it is also sent over as live cattle. The main live cattle markets are in...

Eric Barker (05:26)
Some of it is also sent over as live cattle. The main live cattle markets are Indonesia and Vietnam, particularly Indonesia, that's nice and close to Australia. They like the beef that's produced in the north of Australia. And then for the boxed beef, North Asia is a big market. Japan and China. Europe doesn't take big volumes, but is a very high value market.

Dr. Roz (05:33)
Vietnam, particularly Indonesia, that's nice and close to Australia. like the beef that's produced in the north of Australia. And then for the boxed beef, North Asia is a big market. So Japan and China, Europe doesn't take big volumes, but is a very high value market. And America has actually become a really big market of late. And that's just purely because they've had quite a long...

Eric Barker (05:54)
And America's actually become a really big market of late. And that's just purely because they've had quite a long drought and they've sold a lot of their cattle and their herd's quite low. So America's sort of an interesting one in terms of export markets because it swings from being probably our biggest competitor in North Asia to our biggest customer. It of goes either way.

Dr. Roz (06:02)
sold a lot of their cattle and their herd is quite low. So America is sort of an interesting one in terms of export markets because it swings from being probably our biggest competitor in North Asia to our biggest customer. Yeah, that's really interesting. And in terms of what we keep for domestic consumption, has that

percentage changed in the last 10 years or would you say it's a pretty consistent domestic export sort of comparison?

Eric Barker (06:34)
These days it's probably pretty consistent domestic export comparison. mean the biggest distributors of domestic beef are the supermarkets, Coles and Woolworths. Over the years though that consumption's definitely decreased and I think that's mainly down to price. You know there's been other meats like chicken and pork that have really sort of filled that volume market. They call it the commodity market.

Dr. Roz (06:55)
Yeah. There's been other meats like chicken and pork that really sort of build that volume market. They call it the commodity market. Yeah, that's interesting. So when we talk about cattle producers, we're talking about grazers that raise those cattle and then either send them to abattoirs.

to create that boxed beef. Now are these cattle producers in Australia big corporations or are we talking most of them are these large family type operations like where you were exposed growing up? So the overwhelming majority of cattle producers in Australia are small to medium sized businesses. But there is all manner of

Eric Barker (07:32)
So the overwhelming majority of cattle producers in Australia are small to medium sized businesses, but there is all manner of different sizes of companies. mean, in Northern Australia, there is some quite big corporate players and you're talking companies, you know, there's Parraway Pastoral Company, which is a subsidiary of Macquarie Bank, AA Co, which is a publicly listed company.

Dr. Roz (07:44)
different sizes of companies. In northern Australia there is some quite big corporate players and you're talking companies you know there's Parraway Pastoral Company which is a subsidiary of Macquarie Bank, AA Co which is a publicly listed company. Then there's also this other tier which is venture capital which is know super funds and everything are quite heavily interested.

Eric Barker (08:00)
And then there's also this other tier, is venture capital, is, you know, super funds and everything are quite heavily interest invested in it. Sorry. And so they're sort of maybe one rung down. And then there's some family companies that have probably growing into that corporate size as well. But the overwhelming majority, small to medium businesses.

Dr. Roz (08:09)
invested in it, sorry, and so there's sort of maybe one rung down and then there's some family companies that have probably growing into that corporate size as well. But the overwhelming majority small and medium business. Yeah, so there's no monopoly on the beef industry is sort of where I'm alluding with my questioning.

Eric Barker (08:29)
Not really, no.

Dr. Roz (08:30)
No, okay. So there's method to my madness when I ask about this because there has been a lot of concerns or labeling of the beef industry as big beef. And when we think about big pharma, we think that we're talking about large corporations that have...

a large monopoly on the market. Why do you think we've all of a sudden seen this big beef term come to rise and what's your interpretation of it? What does it mean? It blows my mind, I don't really know what it means myself. Well, I think the people that have been sort of trying to use this term big beef, I think they have been, I mean, they've got their own agendas with it, but I think they've been aiming that at like,

Eric Barker (08:54)
Well, I think the people that have been sort of trying to use this term big beef, I think they have been, I mean, they've got their own agendas with it, but I think they've been aiming that at like, you know, McDonald's or the big processors like

Dr. Roz (09:22)
McDonald's or the big processors like JBS or T's or Cargill in America. Which as you say it sort of sounds like they have a big monopoly over the beef industry but it's a it is quite a complex supply chain as I mentioned behind them is all of these small to medium sized businesses that can do whatever they want. I think a big part of

Eric Barker (09:24)
JBS or or T's or you know, which is cargo in America Which As you say, it's it sort of sounds like they have a big monopoly over the beef industry But it's a it is quite a complex supply chain as I mentioned behind them is all of these small to medium sized businesses that can Do whatever they want. I think a big part

Dr. Roz (09:47)
So they're basically, these small to big, let's just unpack the supply chain a bit. These small to medium sized graziers are selling their meat to people like T's who are then boxing it and then on selling it. Would that be a correct? Yes.

Eric Barker (10:03)
Yes. And so when it goes to Tees, it goes all manner of ways. You send a beast to Tees and there'll be some prime cuts, which is like eye fillet or whatever, and they'll go in one direction. There'll be the hide go somewhere. Then there'll be the trimmings, which often ends up in McDonald's burgers or something like that. So there's all manner of customers there.

Dr. Roz (10:17)
Whenever a knuckle in one direction, there'll be the hide go somewhere. Then there'll be the trimmings, often ends up in McDonald's burgers or something like that. there's all manner of customers there.

Yeah, for sure. And teas also are a key human grade consumption provider who we have worked with. So they're kind of like a middleman for distribution is how I sort of describe them. They're not actually doing the hard work of raising these animals. They're sort of further along that supply chain, getting closer to, you know, the sale market where you and I buy meat. Yeah, yeah. And they probably have

Eric Barker (10:57)
Yeah, yeah, and they probably have been, well they've been doing that through some pretty long term relationships with producers that have gone down through generations and everything like that. So there is that real sort of supply chain there. And then they have to, it's quite a hard business actually when you actually unpack it, you know, because then they have to keep all of these other relationships up with people and sort of try and...

Dr. Roz (11:01)
I've been doing that through some pretty long term relationships with producers that have gone down through generations and everything like that. So there is that real sort of supply chain there and then they have to, it's of hard business actually when you actually unpack it, know, because then they have to keep all of these other relationships up with people and then sort of try and...

Eric Barker (11:25)
turn a profit off all of that, which I think they do sometimes and don't in other times.

Dr. Roz (11:25)
and profit off all of that, which I think they do sometimes and don't in other times. Yeah, definitely. And you know, if some of their key relationships have had a bad year grazing, you know, they're going to have less numbers to put through their production. Is that accurate to say? Yes, yes. And that means they'll need to pay more for that. Yeah. So let's...

Eric Barker (11:40)
Yes, yes, and that means they'll need to pay more for cattle.

Dr. Roz (11:46)
Let's unpack. I want to talk about a concept which is familiar to many people in the beef industry, in the grazing industry, but probably not to people of the general public or the pet industry. And this is this idea of carrying capacity. So can you just explain that term and what it means so then we can sort of take that in terms of where we're going with, you know, this big beef concept. So carrying capacity refers to the amount of animals

Eric Barker (12:10)
So carrying capacity refers to the amount of animals a property can take. Because on any given property you will have an amount of pasture and feed there for a certain amount of animals. And that's often, I guess that can be quite debated at times as to how much or how little. But I mean you can definitely see the impacts of when

Dr. Roz (12:16)
a property can take. Because on any given property you will have an amount of pasture and feed there for a certain amount of animals. And that's often, I guess that can be quite debated at times as to how much or how little. But I mean you can definitely see the impacts of when that carrying capacity is pushed to its limit.

Eric Barker (12:39)
that carrying capacity is pushed to its limit. And when it's not being pushed to its limit, you you can see the different sides of it. And the other thing with carrying capacity too, is it can actually increase and decrease. So if you make developments to your property that improve your pastures or whatever, well then you'll increase your carrying capacity or you introduce more water or whatever. So yeah, but it basically refers to the limit at which a property can operate, the limit of animals at which a property can operate.

Dr. Roz (12:43)
And when it's not being pushed to its limit, you know, can see the different sides of it. And the other thing is carrying capacity too, is it can actually increase and decrease. So if you make developments to your property that improve your pastures or whatever, well then you'll increase the carrying capacity, or you'll introduce more water or whatever. So yeah, but it basically refers to the limit at which a property can operate, the limit of animals at which a property can.

And that's a sustainable limit, the limit at which they can sustainably carry however many head on their property. And my understanding is there's actually been quite a few studies looking at Australia as a whole and the potential carrying capacity as a country for cattle, is that correct? Yeah, there has been. This is something that we have been looking to, we've sort of been asking a little bit about.

Eric Barker (13:13)
Yes.

Yeah, there has been. It's funny, this is something that we have been looking to. We've sort of been asking a little bit about with different people for a while as to whether Australia is at carrying capacity or not. And I haven't really got much of an answer for it. So I'm not sure what studies have been done that look at it as a whole. I think in the North,

Dr. Roz (13:37)
I haven't really got much of an answer. I'm not sure what studies have been done that look at it as a whole. I think in the north,

Eric Barker (13:56)
In particular, where areas are undeveloped, there would probably be a lot of people around there that would say, we can really increase our carrying capacity here if you allow us to grow crops and whatnot. There would be others that would say, you know, we are at peak carrying capacity and we're never going to be able to increase it anymore.

Dr. Roz (13:56)
In particular, their areas are undeveloped. would probably be a lot of people around there that would say, we can really increase our carrying capacity here if you allow us to grow crops and whatnot. There would be others that would say, you know, we are a peak carrying capacity and we're never going to be able to increase it anymore. Yeah, for sure. But the main argument around or the notion of carrying capacity is there is a limit at which properties can stock.

and that we can't just keep stocking to meet demand. They are capped, you know, in terms of without detrimental impact on the herd because it can, we know it can impact the breeding, but also it impacts the land in which they need to graze off for those cattle. So there's, there is a limit to this. There's not this, the sky's the limit. We can just keep pushing cattle to meet demand. So that idea of, I guess if we look at big beef, it can only get so big. Yes, yes.

Eric Barker (14:52)
Yes, yes. And I think the other thing with carrying capacity too is that the majority of Australian producers are these family businesses that are quite often generational. So the goal of probably the average cattle producer in Australia is to have the place ready for the kid to take over. So if you push that carrying capacity and degrade the land, well then it's not going to be in as good a condition for the

Dr. Roz (14:54)
And I think the other thing with carrying capacity too is that the majority of Australian producers are these family businesses that are quite often generational. So the goal of probably the average cattle producer in Australia is to have the place ready for the kid to take over. So if you push that carrying capacity and degrade the land, well then it's not gonna be in as good of a condition for them.

Eric Barker (15:23)
for the kids to take it over. So there is, yeah, I think a big incentive for producers not to push that carrying capacity to its limit or go over its carrying capacity.

Dr. Roz (15:24)
the kids to take it over. So there is, yeah, I think a big incentive for

produces not to push that carrying capacity to its limit or go over its carrying capacity. Yeah, it's really interesting you say that because obviously like in Australia that whole idea of passing the property to the next generation, that idea of succession planning and you've spoken to I'm sure many, many graziers and their families and you've seen succession planning sort of happen, you know, as you visit places. Is that

Would you say an element, there's an element of sustainability sort of inbuilt into that succession planning by stealth, I guess? Yeah, yeah. So my uncle, for example, he is still on the property near Tarleville that we sort of grew up around. when he drifts, he'll go off and work and do something else. He goes off and drives trucks.

Eric Barker (16:09)
Yeah, yeah. Like, so my uncle, for example, he is still on the property near Charleville that we sort of grew up around. And when in big droughts, he'll go off and work and do something else. He goes off and drives trucks. Or has done a lot of the time over the years. Destock the herd to, you know, minimal numbers and find another income for a while.

Dr. Roz (16:27)
has done a lot of the time over the years, destruct the herd to minimal numbers and find another income for a while. And that is inherently about sustainability. It's not so much about really trying to push the country through the drought. It's just letting it be through the drought. So then when it rains again, it will come up. And then there is also

Eric Barker (16:37)
And that is inherently about sustainability. It's not so much about really trying to push the country through the drought. It's just letting it sort of be through the drought. So then when it rains again, it'll come up. And then there is also a generational element there.

Dr. Roz (16:57)
a generational element there. Yeah, that's interesting because it's kind of like you're you know, you're succumbing to the perils of nature, right? Whether it's rain or drought, feast or famine kind of thing. So can you explain a little bit to us about, you know, where has this idea of the methane problem come from?

that's really kind of risen to the fore and it's linked to carbon. So unpack that how you wish to explain it because for me, they're very abstract concepts and I personally struggle to fathom this concept. Yeah, well, it's funny because we don't really know whether these decisions have been made to lump all the different gases in.

Eric Barker (17:38)
Yeah, well, it's funny because we don't really know whether these decisions have been made to lump all the different gases in together. basically the way it works at the moment is there is a standardized emissions measuring metric called GWP100, which stands for global warming potential.

Dr. Roz (17:50)
in together but basically the way it works at the moment is there is a standardized emissions measuring metric called GWP 100 which stands for global warming potential and it basically presumes that the gas is up in the atmosphere for 100 years. And so when you're a country and you're submitting your

Eric Barker (18:06)
And it basically presumes that the gas is up in the atmosphere for 100 years, GWP 100. And so when you're a country and you're submitting your greenhouse gas account to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is the IPCC, you probably see its reports trickle out through the media maybe once a quarter or once every six months. And you have to report in this GWP 100.

Dr. Roz (18:17)
Greenhouse Gas account to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is the IPCC. probably see its reports trickle out through the media maybe once a quarter or once every six months. And you have to report in this GWP 100. You can use supplementary information. But the IPCC has also recognized that GWP 100 overstates

Eric Barker (18:36)
you can use supplementary information, but the IPCC has also recognized that GWP 100 overstates the warming impact of methane, livestock methane, by a factor of three to four. So that's 300 to 400 % overestimation of methane. It's no small accounting area. And that's methane at a stable level. So when the herd is not increasing or decreasing, it's just at a stable level.

Dr. Roz (18:46)
the warming impact of methane, livestock methane, by a factor of three to four. So that's 300 to 400 % overestimation of methane. It's no small accounting error. And that's methane at a stable level. So when the herd is not increasing or decreasing, it's just at a stable level. And so there is other metrics that factor in methane breaking down in the atmosphere. It's known to be up.

Eric Barker (19:06)
And so there is other metrics that factor in methane breaking down in the atmosphere. It's known to be up in the atmosphere for around 10 to 12 years and then sort of naturally breaks down. And so there is other metrics that better reflect this that, you know, certain members of the scientific community who are sort of saying that that's probably a more accurate way of measuring methane. Industry is definitely pushing for

Dr. Roz (19:16)
in the atmosphere for around 10 to 12 years and then sort of naturally breaks down. And so there is other metrics that better reflect this that, you know, the certain members of the scientific community who sort of saying that that's probably a more accurate way of measuring methane, industry's definitely pushing for governments to use that. Or to use it alongside GWP 100 because GWP 100 has been used for so long now.

Eric Barker (19:36)
governments to use that or to use it alongside GWP 100 because GWP 100 has been used for so long now. But there is people within the IPCC who are then coming out and saying, no, no, no, no, this debate's already been had. And we go, well, when? Like, when was it had? Because clearly the industry doesn't know that it's been had because they've just found out about this and they're saying, well, can we account for our methane emissions properly?

Dr. Roz (19:44)
But there is people within the IPCC who are then coming out and saying, no, no, no, no, this debate's already been had. And we go, well, when? When was it had? Because clearly the industry doesn't know that it's been had, because they've just found out about this, and they're saying, well, can we account for our methane emissions problem?

So what's methane doing to the environment? Why the big concern, particularly around methane gas? Well, think it's come with the concern about climate change and where and when.

Eric Barker (20:06)
and

Well, I think it's come with the concern about climate change and where and when methane from livestock became such a focus, I'm not sure. Because other thing it gets, methane from livestock kind of gets lumped in with methane from gas, electricity from gas production. So how that's happened, I'm not sure.

Dr. Roz (20:26)
methane from livestock became such a focus, I'm not sure. Because the other thing it gets, methane from livestock kind of gets lumped in with methane from gas, electricity from gas production. So how that's happened, I'm not sure. But I think you kind of get all these studies on it. And then there is the thing where you go, well, hang on a second, we've had livestock on the planet for...

Eric Barker (20:44)
But I think, you you kind of get all these studies on it. And then there is the thing where you go, well, hang on a second, we've had livestock on the planet for thousands of years. People have eaten livestock for thousands of years. Why is it all of a sudden, the methane from livestock, a problem? Now, it does have a warming. Well, they say it does have a warming effect when you increase the herd, which Australia has done over the years.

Dr. Roz (20:55)
thousands of years. People have eaten livestock for thousands of years. Why is it all of a sudden the methane from livestock a problem? Now it does have a warming effect when you increase the herd which Australia has done over the years. it but yeah as to what it's actually doing to the environment is definitely something that is up

Eric Barker (21:14)
So it, but yeah, as to what it's actually doing to the environment is definitely something that is up for debate. And I think a lot of people would argue that it probably distracts from the main debate in terms of climate change, which is, you know, fossil fuel production.

Dr. Roz (21:22)
And I think a lot of people would argue that it probably distracts from the main debate in terms of climate change, is fossil fuel production. Yeah, so let's split this in two. So I just want to go back to methane first and then we can talk about fossil fuel. is it like in your research and in your investigative journalist work, is there any like concrete studies on the impact of methane on the environment from livestock?

Eric Barker (21:51)
So, it's actually funny because we've had, there is this, I guess all of the work that's going on about methane has this, this assumption, I guess it's sort of a known thing that it breaks down 10 to 12 years. That's what all the studies sort of factor in when they're coming up with these new measurement metrics. But we actually had a guy who kept commenting on our page saying, no, it doesn't break.

Dr. Roz (21:52)
So, it's actually funny because we've had, there is this, I guess all of the work that's going on about methane has this assumption, I guess it's sort of a known thing that it breaks down 10 to 12 years, that's what all the sort of factor in when they're coming up with these new measurement metrics. But we actually had a guy who kept commenting on our page saying, no, doesn't break.

Eric Barker (22:21)
break down in 10 years, like if it's actually in a grassland, then it breaks down instantly. It doesn't even go up into the atmosphere. And so we went and sort of started asking all the scientists that we know to produce, like where the paper is that actually came up with the figure of 10 to 12 years breaking down. And nobody sort of really produced it to us. So we...

Dr. Roz (22:21)
break down in 10 years, like if it's actually in a grassland, then it breaks down instantly. It doesn't even go up into the atmosphere. And so we went and sort of started asking all the scientists that we know to produce, like where the paper is that actually came up with the figure of 10 to 12 years breaking down. And nobody sort of really produced it to us. So we...

Eric Barker (22:50)
I'm sure it exists because it's used in so much literature. But it just hasn't been produced and it's a bit of an unknown where that figure's come from.

Dr. Roz (22:50)
I'm sure it exists because it's used in so much literature. But it just hasn't been produced and it's a bit of an unknown where that figure's come from. One would think that if this is what things are based on, it should be very easy to produce that study.

And it's publicly available for people like Graziers who are impacted by this decision making to access. So I question whether it does exist or if someone's got it send it to us because I'd love to read it. Yeah that would be great for Beep Central as well. Yeah.

Eric Barker (23:09)
Yes.

Yeah, that'd be great for beef central as well. Because we had dozens of graziers commenting on that article saying, you know, we're owed the study. This is all sort of coming to us, you know, show us the evidence.

Dr. Roz (23:41)
Yeah, also I say this in other episodes and I constantly say this to our listeners that one study doesn't make something irrefutable science. One study is one study. It says, okay, well, is this study valid? And there's many ways of critiquing whether the study is valid, unbiased, but it does give us information to start questioning. It does not set the groundwork for

changing things in policy, it gives us a point of question to start to challenge. if policy has been built on one study, and however many years ago this study was done, know, arguably, it may be outdated science now. And that's something that, you know, we constantly have to start pushing for more of is, you know, this critique of academia. Now, we've been saying livestock and methane in livestock. why are beef, why is the beef industry, why are

a poor cattle under so much fire as opposed to other livestock, other animals that we use for consumption.

Eric Barker (24:46)
Well, I'm not... I'm not sure.

Dr. Roz (24:48)
sure. And I think you did definitely hit the nail on the head then, Ros, when you were talking about the studies coming up to the being like the final word. And treated like the final word anyway, because there has definitely been a lot of studies in recent times, and I'm talking probably in the last 10 years, that have been.

Eric Barker (24:49)
And I think you did definitely hit the nail on the head then, Ros, when you were talking about, you know, the studies coming up that are sort of being like the final word. Being treated like the final word anyway, because there has definitely been a lot of studies in recent times, and I'm talking probably in the last 10 years, that have been talking about meat as this sort of substitutable

Dr. Roz (25:13)
talking about meat as this sort of substitutable, this luxury that is filling the planet. And I actually did bring some examples of that. Please. So there was a... You know we love debating this, So there was a study published by a particular World Health Organization called the International Agency for Research on Cancer.

Eric Barker (25:17)
you know, this luxury that is killing the planet. And I actually did bring some examples of that. So there was a... So there was a study published by a subsidiary of the World Health Organization called the International Agency for Research on Cancer. And it was published in the Lancet Journal and it claimed that red meat was probably carcinogenic to humans.

Dr. Roz (25:41)
and was publishing the Lancet Journal and it claimed that red meat was probably carcinogenic to humans and that processed meat was definitely carcinogenic to humans. Again, a lot of sort of pretty wild assumptions made about that. And often the debate ends up lying around these sort of micro nutrients in beef and also the...

Eric Barker (25:47)
and that processed meat was definitely carcinogenic to humans. Again, a lot of sort of pretty wild assumptions made about their... And often the debate ends up lying around these sort of micro nutrients in beef. And also the types of beef that they use for these studies is, you know, is it a McDonald's burger or is it a steak? I'm not exactly sure for this one, but it definitely had...

Dr. Roz (26:05)
the types of beef that they use for these studies is McDonald's burger or steak. I'm not exactly sure for this one but it definitely had the authors of this have definitely acknowledged errors and created error and sorry and made corrections and then in 2019 another study called the global burden of disease was released and it basically said that meat was carcinogenic from the first bite.

Eric Barker (26:16)
The authors of this had definitely acknowledged errors and created error, and sorry, and made corrections. And then in 2019, another study called the Global Burden of Disease was released, and it basically said that meat was carcinogenic from the first bite. Authors acknowledged numerous errors again when they were challenged and have not corrected them yet. And that Global Burden of Disease study, I saw it was quoted in a media article the other day.

Dr. Roz (26:33)
acknowledged numerous errors again when they were challenged and have not corrected them yet. And that global burden of disease study, I saw it was quoted in a media article the other day as something that's damning the meat industry even though it's been so...

Eric Barker (26:45)
as something that's damning to the meat industry, even though it's been so sort of while refuted and some would argue discredited.

Dr. Roz (26:50)
sort of wild, know, refusals, some would argue, discrediting. Yeah, I mean, and this is the thing with academia in that when a study is challenged and authors have to make changes to it, people often don't look for those challenges, often don't know what they're looking for in terms of, you know, critiquing an article. You know, in the dog industry, the biggest, you know, study that, you know, paved the way for dog training was this idea of dominance theory. You know, within a few weeks of that,

study coming out, it was just damned, it was just so heavily critiqued that that dominant theory was revoked within a few weeks. But we still have people today using that theory in the dog training industry and that's over 30 years ago. So you can see the impact that these kind of publications have and the things that people hold on to, not considering, you know,

things like studies being refuted or challenges or advancements. And it is damning and it's scary because we're talking about a supply chain, we're talking about who's involved in that supply chain, small to medium businesses plus other people. But also we really don't have anything that's irrefutable in terms of science, which is kind of scary. yeah, share some other things that you brought.

please do.

Eric Barker (28:13)
So, and then probably the biggest one. So the global burden of disease is a big one that gets quite a lot.

And then the other one was one called the Eat Lancet diet, and it's probably the most well -known sort vegan study. And again, sort of has acknowledged numerous errors. I can't remember where it's up to in terms of correcting them or not. But basically, this Eat Lancet diet has got a whole lot of cities, know, city councils signing on to support it and...

Dr. Roz (28:41)
whole lot of city councils signing on to support it and all these organisations saying we're going to adopt the advanced diet which is a reduction in meat consumption. So yeah, it's quite, because there is that sort of business impact to these small to medium sized family producers. But there is also like a health.

Eric Barker (28:48)
all these organizations saying, you know, we're sort of going to adopt the Eat Lancet diet, which is a reduction in meat consumption. So yeah, it's quite, because there is that sort of business impact to these, you know, these small to medium sized family producers, but there is also like a health side of it as well. And I guess that's a part that we've sort of been looking at or we've been involved in is

Dr. Roz (29:09)
side of it as well. And I guess that's a part that we've sort of been looking at or we've been involved in is that there's definitely a group of scientists that are out there that have been really working on trying to get some of this stuff corrected. And also while they're doing it, putting into context the role of in forming policy. And I think the point that they quite often make is that

Eric Barker (29:17)
There's definitely a group of scientists that are out there that have been really working on trying to get some of this stuff corrected. And also while they're doing it, putting into context the role of science in forming policy. And I think the point that they quite often make is that in their eyes, science is there to present the evidence politicians are elected to make.

Dr. Roz (29:39)
In their sort of eyes, science is there to sort of present the evidence politicians are elected to make the policy and they can use the evidence whichever way they want. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, we talk about every good scientific debate should have what's called academic rig up. So that's where we either change the science, we change the methodologies, we accept, we reject, we revise based on, you know,

Eric Barker (29:47)
the policy and they can use the evidence whichever way they want.

Dr. Roz (30:06)
multiple sides to an argument. So let's unpack, you know, you've obviously spent a lot of time talking to these scientists. Are they based in Australia? Where are they based? Who do they work for? Are they independent? Tell us about what you found. So the, lot of them, there is actually quite a big group from Europe. Some Australian scientists are involved in it, no doubt. But there's actually sort of a group of them that have

Eric Barker (30:21)
So a lot of them, there is actually quite a big group from Europe. Some Australian scientists are involved in it, no doubt. But there's actually sort of a group of them that have come from Europe. And Europe seems to be ground zero for a lot of this sort of vegan push. I think it really did end up in policies. And I think just things like, I think one...

Dr. Roz (30:35)
come from Europe and Europe seems to be ground zero for a lot of this sort of vegan push and I think it merely did end up in policies and I think you know just things like I think one council in the Netherlands had banned advertising for meat and this sort of stuff and so these scientists over there sort of had been looking at the eat man's and diet, global burden of disease, trying to get them to acknowledge errors and

Eric Barker (30:49)
council in the Netherlands had banned advertising for meat and this sort of stuff. And so these scientists over there sort of had been looking at the eat, lance, the global burden of disease, you know, trying to get them to acknowledge errors. And eventually came together last year with some from Australia as well and signed what was called the Dublin Declaration, which was basically recognizing

Dr. Roz (31:05)
eventually came together last year with some from Australia as well and signed what was called the Dublin Declaration which was basically recognising meat and livestock as essential to the planet. And it's not necessarily saying that we want the status quo to remain. I mean there's some there that are sort of

Eric Barker (31:18)
meat and livestock as essential to the planet. And it's not necessarily saying that we want the status quo to remain. mean, there's some there that are sort of food scientists that say, well, you know, we need more whole foods and less processed foods, but meat's part of that solution. You know, there's some environmental scientists there that are talking about managing landscapes.

Dr. Roz (31:32)
food scientists that say, well, we need more whole foods and less processed foods, but meat's part of that solution. There's some environmental scientists there that are talking about managing landscapes, avoiding things like overgrazing or whatever, but meat's part of that solution as well. So they've signed that and then that's...

Eric Barker (31:48)
you know, avoiding things like overgrazing or whatever, but meat's part of that solution as well. So they've so they've signed that and then that's, the two of that around the world have taken it to sort of you know, Brussels and Washington and Canberra to put it in front of scientists to say there is another view here that isn't about, you know, reducing red meat.

Dr. Roz (32:02)
the two of them around the world that taken it to of you know, Brutals and Washington and Canberra to put it in front of scientists to say there is another beauty that isn't about, you know, reducing red meat consumption. And then, and I think basically what one of them, the way one of them explained it to me is they basically go there, they raise the flag and go have a look at our evidence. See you later.

Eric Barker (32:17)
consumption. then, and I think basically what one of them, the way one of them explained it to me is, is they basically go there, they raise the flag and go, have a look at our evidence. See you later. let us know, you know, if you need it, need to know anything more. But there is another perspective on this. They're not writing the policy, but they are just presenting this other side of, of the evidence.

Dr. Roz (32:32)
Let us know if you need to know anything more. But there is another perspective on this. They're not writing the policy, but they are just presenting this other side of the evidence. And how has that been met? Has it been received with open arms? are they going, no, our policy is this, we're not accepting other views, or it's been tabled. What have you found? So there's about 1 ,200 scientists have signed up to it.

Eric Barker (32:56)
So about 1200 scientists have signed up to it. It's definitely had its descent in the media. There's been some articles talking about how it's sort of got strong industry links and all this sort of stuff. Industry funding has kind of done it all. And at least the leaders of this, the main sort of three or four guys, are just very diligently not...

Dr. Roz (33:01)
It's definitely had its descent in the media. There's been some articles talking about how it's sort of got strong industry links and all this of stuff. Industry funding's kind of done it all. And at least the leaders of this, the main sort of three or four guys, are just very diligently not.

Eric Barker (33:23)
industry funded because they want to get this point across so they actually have been specifically not taking any funding from the industry. Some are definitely funded from the industry. Industry funds a lot of science. But... Yeah.

Dr. Roz (33:23)
industry funded because they want to get this point across so they actually have been specifically not taking any funding from the industry. Some are definitely funded from the industry. Industry funds a lot of science. Yeah so does the World Health Organization you know a lot of those studies you quoted me before were all funded by you know key organizations. Yeah the WWF is another one that funds a lot on the environmental side of things and it's got a pretty strong lobbying position.

Eric Barker (33:42)
Yeah, the WWF is another one that funds a lot on the environmental side of things and it's got a pretty strong lobbying position. And so it's definitely had that sort of attack, but the only way it has been attacked is through its funding sources. No other way. No, nobody has challenged actually the, you know, what they're, the science that's been published, they've published some sort of science.

Dr. Roz (33:52)
And so it's had that sort of attack. But the only way it has been attacked is through its funding sources. Yeah, not for its quality of science. No, has challenged actually the science that's been published. They've published some sort of science on the back of this declaration. So it's had that. But I think they've found it's quite a small group of organisations that push that.

Eric Barker (34:12)
on the back of this declaration. So it's had that, but I think they've found it's quite a small group of organisations that push that and a small group of media organisations that push it, but it definitely puts it out there in the public realm. I think mixed sort of responses from politicians depending on their political persuasion, but it's definitely, yeah, it's a bit of one for the ind...

Dr. Roz (34:21)
and a small group of them.

I think mixed sort of responses from politicians depending on their political persuasion. it's definitely, yeah, it's a bit of a, one for the industry that maybe doesn't necessarily get the credit it deserves for what these scientists have done for. And do you think it's going anywhere? Do you think that it's going to get more traction? It has.

Eric Barker (34:42)
industry that maybe doesn't necessarily get the credit it deserves for what these scientists have done for them.

Dr. Roz (34:56)
power to not even make change, but to start to challenge some of these other articles that have got so much more traction that are arguably scientifically flawed in their presentation or in their publication, which again, shame on journals like Lancet because they're supposed to be top tier journals. We could question that academic review process that.

is a bit sloppy in those senses. But do you think this Dublin Declaration has some legs to make change in the years to come?

Eric Barker (35:31)
Well, it's funny because sometimes you think, the debate's really starting to change and, you know, these sort of voices are being heard. But then you see things like yesterday, there was an organisation called the Climate Change Authority, which is like an independent organisation that's sort of a one step removed from government that put this plan together to help the Australian government.

Dr. Roz (35:33)
because sometimes you think, the debate's really starting to change and these sort of voices are being heard. But then you see things like yesterday, there was an organisation called the Climate Change Authority, which is like an independent organisation that's sort of a one step removed from government that put this plan together to help the Australian government develop some pathways to reducing.

Eric Barker (35:56)
develop some pathways to reducing, you know, sorry, to getting to its net zero by 2050 goal. And in there, there's just this paragraph that just flippantly mentions that, reducing meat is one way of reaching this net zero, or not reaching net zero, but, you know, reducing the emissions associated with meat. Not mentioning the Dublin Declaration, and we know for a fact.

Dr. Roz (36:00)
to get into its net zero by 2050 goal. And in there, there's just this paragraph that just flippantly mentions that reducing meat is one way of reaching this net zero, not reaching net zero, but reducing the emissions associated with meat. Not mentioning the Dublin Declaration, and we know for a fact that the Dublin Declaration was put in front of the Climate Change Authority.

Eric Barker (36:24)
that the Dublin Declaration was put in front of the Climate Change Authority. And they did not mention it. There's no caveats in there about the impacts that that would have reducing meat consumption. And that that is quite a nuanced debate. And so sometimes you think it's working and then sometimes you see that.

Dr. Roz (36:29)
And I did not mention it. There's no no caveats in there about the impact that that would have reducing meat consumption. That's really interesting. You want to buy it. So sometimes you think it's working and then sometimes you say.

I mean, I think there's obviously a long way to go to change policy and perspectives. But in that climate change authority report, my understanding is they're still grouping. And we were going to come back to this anyway. Methane emissions and carbon dioxide from fossil fuel emissions. that why is that? Why are we still grouping when we're talking about, you know, essentially, you know, animal emissions and we, you know, you have mentioned that there is some methane emissions from electricity, but

majority of methane emissions that they're arguing are from animals, why are we still grouping carbon dioxide from fossil fuel emissions together, which are arguably more manufacturing industry based? And I don't know why they're still grouping it together to be honest, these are the metrics that have been developed specifically for methane emission, some of them even specifically for livestock.

Eric Barker (37:16)
I don't know why they're still grouping it together to be honest because these other metrics that have been developed specifically for methane emissions, some of them even specifically for livestock methane emissions, are, you know, scientists from Oxford University, the CSIRO, University of California.

Dr. Roz (37:39)
You know, scientists from Oxford University, CSIRO, University of California, who have been saying, you know, we're not treating the sort of circularity of methane emissions accurately here. So these are sort of, you know, these are big respected institutions as much as...

Eric Barker (37:45)
who have been saying, you know, we're not treating the sort of circularity of methane emissions accurately here. So these aren't sort of, you know, these are big respected institutions as much as, you know, the Lancet at Harvard University or anything like that. These aren't just nobodies saying this. But it does just seem to keep falling on deaf ears. It seems to get...

Dr. Roz (38:01)
the Lancet at Harvard University or anything like that, these aren't just nobody's saying. But it does just seem to falling on deaf ears. seems to get, the optics of it sometimes, I guess, get questioned in that, is this the industry trying to get itself out of trouble type thing? Not do its part in this whole climate change.

Eric Barker (38:14)
The optics of it sometimes, I guess, get questioned in that, you know, is this the industry trying to, you know, get itself out of trouble type thing, not do its part in this whole climate change thing. I mean, but then you then you go, well, currently the metric that's being used is overstating 300 to 400 percent, grouping it in with fossil fuel emissions that, you know, we've

Dr. Roz (38:29)
But then you go, well, currently the metric that's being used is overstating 300 to 400%. Grouping it in with fossil fuel emissions that have become something of the last couple of hundred years as opposed to meat, which we've been eating for thousands and thousands of years, even before we had production systems. So why they keep grouping it together, think baffles a lot of us, Ross.

Eric Barker (38:43)
that have become something of the last couple of hundred years as opposed to meat which we've been eating for thousands and thousands of years, even before we had production systems. So why they keep grouping it together, think baffles a lot of us, right?

Dr. Roz (38:57)
Yeah, it's interesting. mean, climate change is something that baffles me because I always thought to myself if we were so hell -bound to unstopping climate change and curbing fossil fuel emissions, we would probably shut down things like V8 racing and things like that. You know, car racing and whatnot. But, you know, in the Northern Territories funded by the government who then has this, you know, we must have, you know, net zero carbon. So I find that this is quite hypocritical.

But you know, luck to that. I mean, this is the thing too, like this whole idea of carbon neutral, how are people, you know, how is that impact actually measured? How do we actually know that they are carbon neutral? Or is it, you know,

Eric Barker (39:25)
I think the Formula One has a carbon neutral target.

Dr. Roz (39:45)
Like we talked about, how do we actually know that methane stays in the environment for 10 to 12 years? There's apparently one study, but how do we actually know that this net carbon zero, how do we measure that? How are we measuring people's emissions? Yeah, and I guess that's something that comes up. There is kind of like calculators and stuff out there, the farms on their emissions, again, they still use the other methodologies which are quite...

Eric Barker (40:01)
Yeah, and I guess that's something that comes up with that there is kind of like calculators and stuff out there for farms on their emissions, but they again, they still use these other methodologies, which are quite quite disputed. I think maybe something as well that doesn't get talked about as much with livestock production, which I think in terms of this whole climate change thing is this actual ability to

Dr. Roz (40:14)
I think maybe something as well that doesn't get talked about as much with livestock production, which I think in terms of this whole climate change thing, is this actual ability to draw emissions, to draw down emissions. We're sort of seeing a lot of work go into doing that into agricultural soils now where wet management.

Eric Barker (40:30)
draw emissions, you know, to draw down emissions. You know, we're sort of seeing a lot of work go into doing that into agricultural soils now where management is, you where they've really sort of supercharged their sort of management, for want of a better word. And we're talking some pretty big developments where they've done this, you know, some properties have gone from seven paddocks to 140 paddocks to really sort of intensively manage the property and

Dr. Roz (40:40)
is where they've really supercharged their management, want of a better word. And the problems are pretty big developments where they've done this. Some properties have gone from seven paddocks to 140 paddocks to really intensively manage the property. in the short term, have demonstrated increases in soil carbon, demonstrating themselves as a carbon sink. They're going to have to do that over 20 years to really prove.

Eric Barker (40:58)
in the short term have demonstrated increases in soil carbon, know, sort of demonstrating themselves as a carbon sink. They're going to have to do that over 20 years to really prove their work. But yeah, I guess when they're of calculating it, but that is a field that perhaps hasn't had a lot of long -term studies done, hasn't sort of been measuring to really...

Dr. Roz (41:10)
their work. But yeah, I guess when they're of calculating it, but that is a field that perhaps hasn't had a lot of long term studies done, hasn't sort of been measuring to really deep and is possibly an opportunity for the agricultural industry in all of this sort of study. And I think it's one that I know the peak body for.

Eric Barker (41:26)
deep and is possibly an opportunity for the agricultural industry in all of this sort of study. And I think it's one that I know the peak body for the cattle industry, Cattle Australia is definitely pushing for more work to have a look at that to say, well, why, they're basically asking like, why are you putting all this money into reducing methane emissions, are, you know, which we don't, well, which we're, we know it's limited about, but you know, have this sort of

Dr. Roz (41:37)
the cattle industry, Cattle Australia is definitely pushing for more work to have a look at that to say well why they're basically asking like why are you putting all this money into reducing methane emissions which are you know which we don't we know it's limited about but you know have this sort of cyclical nature of being around for a while and not doing the thing that we can actually do which is manage our land better and possibly have a sort of carbon

Eric Barker (41:55)
cyclical nature have been around for a while and not doing the thing that we can actually do, which is manage our land better and possibly have a sort carbon benefit from that.

Dr. Roz (42:06)
benefit from that. So kind of what you're saying here is you know thinking about land management doesn't necessarily mean taking cattle out of production, taking cattle out of the supply chain to to manage emissions is that correct? Yeah and I guess that then comes back to the Dublin Declaration which is what these guys have been saying all along you know there is it's not like there's no

Eric Barker (42:22)
Yeah. And I guess that then comes back to the Dublin Declaration, which is what these guys have been saying all along. know, it's not like there's no problems in the world that need to be solved. But for a lot of things or problems that the cattle industry is being associated with, you know, it is actually part of most of the solutions. So, you know, that is one, land management.

Dr. Roz (42:34)
problems in the world that need to be solved. for a lot of things, for problems that the cattle industry is being associated with, it is actually part of most of the solution. So that is one, land management. If the settings are right and people can have the right incentives and whatever to manage their land battle, then surely there's a benefit to that.

Eric Barker (42:52)
you know, if the settings are right and people can have the right incentives and whatever to manage their land battle, well then surely there's a benefit to that.

Dr. Roz (43:03)
Yeah definitely definitely.

Eric Barker (43:06)
Yeah.

Dr. Roz (43:08)
So do you think the cattle industry's really been consulted in all of this or they've just been hit with these sort of targets and now they're sort of struggling with where to go with their grazing, with cattle production or they've been heavily consulted? No, it's been incredibly, to put it frankly, it's been a very cloaking nagger sort of process. We saw it last week, maybe it was...

Eric Barker (43:25)
No, it's been incredibly, to put it frankly, it's been a very cloak and dagger sort of process. We saw last week, Woolworth, maybe it was the week before, but recently Woolworth's came out and said that we're going to have deforestation free beef from next year. sort of, know, tree clearing something that's been debated in, particularly in Queensland and New South Wales for decades. And the

Dr. Roz (43:36)
recently came out and said that we're going to have deforestation free beef from next year and and sort of you know tree clearing something that's been debated in particularly in Queensland and New South Wales for decades and in the environmental groups you know the WWF has been a big part of that debate and

Eric Barker (43:55)
environmental groups, know, the WWF has been a big part of that debate. And Woolworths has come out saying we're going to be deforestation free by next year. The thing that sort of probably wasn't mentioned too much, well, we wrote a bit about this, but Woolworths actually signed up to an organization called the Science Based Targets Initiative back in 2021, which...

Dr. Roz (44:04)
deforestation free by next year. The thing that sort of probably wasn't mentioned too much, well we wrote a bit about this, but Woolworth actually signed up to an organisation called Design Phase Targets Initiative back in 2021, which it was the Design Phase Targets Initiative that was basically saying to them, you've got to go deforestation free, you've got to set a deforestation free target by 2025 else we're going to kick you out.

Eric Barker (44:22)
It was this science -based targets initiative that was basically saying to them, you've got to go deforestation free. You've got to set a deforestation free target by 2025, else we're going to kick you out. And so this was all done over here. So this is all very, you know, the organizations behind the science -based targets initiative are the WW, the, you know, the World Wildlife Fund. I think they've changed their name to the World Wide Fund for Nature now.

Dr. Roz (44:34)
And so this was all done over here. this is all very, you know, the organizations behind the science -based targets initiative are the WW, the World Wide Fund, I think they're changing the name to the World Wide Fund for nature now, the UN Global Compact and a few other organizations, certainly no industry organizations. And now the industry is only starting to find out about it.

Eric Barker (44:50)
the UN Global Compact and a few other organizations, certainly no industry organizations. And now the industry is only starting to find out about it. So they're having to sort put this definition together of what is deforestation, basically prove that the current laws are fine. And all the while they're kind of been associated with deforestation. And they didn't even know it was happening.

Dr. Roz (45:02)
So they're having to put this definition together of what is deforestation basically prove that the current laws are fine. And all the while they're kind of been associated with deforestation. And they didn't even know what was happening back when the deal was set. Yeah, the things that go on behind closed doors. And this is what we're here to shed light on is that a lot of this isn't freely

Eric Barker (45:19)
back when the deal was sealed.

Dr. Roz (45:31)
available information or it's certainly not in, you know, big mainstream media outlets that these kind of stories sort of happen. I mean, I know this whole conversation started because you and I started having a pretty rigorous debate around some studies that were published by social science researchers, you know, making claims around, you know, arguably more hard science issues. So...

Eric Barker (46:02)
So, Roz, that just dropped out a little bit. Sorry, I missed your question.

Dr. Roz (46:03)
So, Rose, let's just drop down a little bit. I don't know if this is a question. Yeah, so I just, I'm just, we'll just recap that bit. So I said, you know, a lot of this conversation that you and I have had came from, you know, critiquing these studies that were coming out from social science researchers, you know, making arguably more hard scientific claims that are potentially, you know, outside of their remit, which again,

I question the validity of that or whether that's actually in their scope of expertise. But this is something that isn't made public. Arguably, this is how I came to want to interview you, is that you're really pushing that journalistic boundary with Beef Central at the moment, trying to give a voice, I guess, to the beef industry, but a different voice to all these other publications that are

really pushing that there's only one way forward and that's to completely cease cattle production and red meat consumption.

Eric Barker (47:04)
Yeah, and I guess our role in it all is that our content is tailored to beef producers or people in the beef industry. And so I guess we're really trying to communicate to our core readership, know, this is what's happening. These are the issues with it that we can see and

Dr. Roz (47:10)
Our content is tailored to beef producers or people in the beef industry. And so I guess we're really trying to communicate to our core readership, you know, this is what's happening. These are the issues with it that we can see. And then for that, for example, that paper that...

Eric Barker (47:28)
And for that, for example, that paper that you were talking about before with the social sciences, it skipped out a lot of facts, some really basic facts, and some of it was even just plain wrong. One said that the live exporters don't have any binding regulation that sort of holds them to account for animal welfare reasons when live exporters, if they actually get tied up with a

Dr. Roz (47:34)
you were talking about before with the social sciences, it skipped out a lot of facts, some really basic facts, and some of it was even just plain wrong. One said that the live exporters don't have any binding regulation that holds them to account for animal welfare reasons when...

Live exporters, if they actually get tied up with an unscrupulous operator overseas, can lose their license. I just don't know how that's not binding. Yeah, and like we've seen that happen in the Northern Territory, particularly, obviously, as you said, live exporters.

Eric Barker (47:58)
unscrupulous operator overseas can lose their license. I just don't know how that's not binding.

Dr. Roz (48:13)
you know, a big part of the industry in the Northern Territory. And that license can be stripped and it's not easy to get back. You don't just temporarily lose a license. You've got to, you know, really work hard, arguably fight to get it back. There's a lot of costs involved. So, you know, you think of a small to medium business loses any license, you know, we lose our pet pet meat license. You don't just get that back. There's a lot of hoops to jump through, a lot of costs to pay. It's not in the interest of a small to medium business to do bad business.

But yeah, mean the welfare argument and around live export, that's a whole nother discussion for us, Eric. Because it's a whole different debate around welfare and ethics, something which we are very passionate about. And again, I think that's something that hasn't really been truthfully told, the story around.

welfare and live export. So we might have to get Eric back to unpack live export and welfare and ethics on that one. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. I can't wait for this episode to come out. Now I have one more question for you before we tell everyone where they can find more about your work and your daily publications. But we ask this of every guest regardless of their profession. So there's no pressure.

What dog or animal, doesn't have to be a dog, has changed your life or made a significant impact in your life? What was the animal? How are they connected to you? And how maybe did it change your path or just how you thought about things in your life at that point? So when you said this, because you gave us a heads up about this, and there's two absolute, well, there's been two main pets in my life. There was a dog growing up,

Eric Barker (49:53)
So, when you sent this, because you gave us the heads up about this, and there's two absolute, well there's been two main pets in my life. There was a dog growing up named Otis. Had a lot of attitude, but it was a great little dog. And I've currently got a cat who I'm surprised hasn't made an entrance into this interview. But in terms of actually sort of changing your life and all that sort of stuff, maybe I will go with the cat. Her name's perfect.

Dr. Roz (50:09)
I've got a cat who I'm surprised hasn't made an entrance into this interview. But in terms of actually sort of changing your life and all that sort of stuff, maybe I will go with the cat, I know it's perfect. And that's just simply for the fact that I, with this job with Beef Central, I work from home. And so maybe work for about a year.

Eric Barker (50:24)
And that's just simply for the fact that I, with this job with Beef Central, I work from home. And so we maybe worked for about a year without any pets, but having just that companion at home while you're working and the cat coming in and walking over your keyboard when you're halfway through writing an article or something like that has been a revolutionized work.

Dr. Roz (50:34)
without any pet, having just that companion at home while you're working and the cat coming in and walking over your keyboard when you're halfway through writing an article or something like that has been a revolutionised work. Yeah, I'm sure she's been a stress release when you've been smashing the keyboard in anger about these publications that Perfect's just sort of given you that stress relief. And they do, they are.

Eric Barker (50:56)
Yeah.

Dr. Roz (51:01)
such a valuable part of our lives. So that's a great answer. if people wish to, obviously we'll put, you know, links to all the Beef Central and the various publications, obviously that there's not just Beef Central that Beef Central published, but how else can people find you or make contact with you if they're interested in following the work that you're doing?

Eric Barker (51:26)
So I use LinkedIn a bit. So if you look for Eric Barker on LinkedIn, I'm often quite contactable on there. The other place is Twitter, although I'm using it a bit less these days. But yes, LinkedIn or Twitter, Eric Barker on either of them. Otherwise, yeah, if you go through the main channels, BeefCentral .com or the BeefCentral, we're on all social media.

Dr. Roz (51:29)
I use LinkedIn a bit, so if you look for Eric Barker on LinkedIn, I'm often quite contactable on there. The other place is Twitter, although I'm using it a bit less. But yes, LinkedIn or Twitter, Eric Barker on either of them. Otherwise, yeah, go through the main channels, Beatscentral .com or the Beats Central. We're on all social media platforms as well. And yeah, you can be contacted by them.

Eric Barker (51:55)
platforms as well and yeah, it can be contacted via them.

Dr. Roz (51:59)
Awesome. Thanks so much, Eric. Thanks, Roz.

Eric Barker (52:01)
Thanks, Roz.