Raw Truth. Real Health

Episode 8 - Sex, Spay, Neuter: The Impact of Sterilization on Behaviour

• Dr. Roz (PhD) • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Part 2 of our Sex, Spay , Neuter series. This week Dr. Jeff and I go deep and controversial on the potential impacts that sterilization can have on behaviour. It's unfiltered Raw Truth and Real Health you need to hear. 

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Speaker 2 (00:58)
And I'm looking forward to this one because there's so much information, disinformation, misinformation and all the poor information too. And if you get on the internet, it's just fraught with that stuff. So welcome, Roz.

Speaker 1 (01:13)
Thanks, it's good to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:15)
So yeah, the thing that we know, I'll call it this way. When I went through school and for the 20 years after that, the only thing veterinarians knew was that, if you've got an aggressive dog, you should neuter them and that will solve the aggression problem. And very quickly we found out that that's really not the case. It doesn't seem to do it. So with that intro.

Tell me everything you know about sterilization and behavior.

Speaker 1 (01:47)
I just, can't believe that we still believe that all these years later, but it's true. Also like it's permeated, not just from the vet world, it's permeated into the dog training world. I mean, we're talking about behavior. We have to acknowledge dog training and how many, you know, cases I've seen come through vet clinics to say the dog's here to be desexed because my dog trainer said my dog's aggressive. And so for one, how good is your dog trainer? Because I don't think.

you know, desexing is always the answer to resolve aggression. But if we look at it from a science perspective, and you know, I seem to talk a lot about testosterone, but you know, in some cases, and you know, I don't like to generalise, but you know, in some cases, neutering a dog may reduce testosterone related aggression. But there is so many other types

of aggression. what sometimes we know with entire males is they can have a prevalence to, to roam, they can have more of a prevalence to fight, especially, you know, in contexts where there are more entire females around and, know, around times of where they want to look to mate and things like that.

So obviously, you you look at the animal kingdom, that's normal behaviour. know, snakes go looking for females and then you'll get two male snakes fighting. Like it's normal in certain times of the breeding season and the breeding context. But, you know, in the domestic world, we don't like that. And we think that we should stop these normal social behaviours and, you know, chop off the gonads or desex a female so the male's not interested. So that can...

Yeah, of course it's going to reduce the testosterone and potentially reduce testosterone related roaming and fighting when it comes to breeding. But what we ignore about that is, and if you look at cases, what do we have also like a huge problem on the rise at the moment is canine anxiety. And the relationship that desexing has to anxiety is completely

ignore it because when we take sex hormones out of it, what we don't pay attention to is the fact that that can increase, well we know it affects mood, we know it affects social interactions, but we can talk about that later. anxiety can then, it's a change in behaviour, it's a change in mental state, it also then means that when a dog is really anxious, what can they often do?

fight or flight so we can get anxious related aggression. So you might've solved your, you know, they're not roaming and they're not fighting over, you know, the hottest female in the neighbourhood, but now they're, they're really reactive on walks. They're really just generally aggressive. I use that term sort of loosely, but we're not looking at actually they're really an anxious dog and we've potentially created that, solved one problem and created more anxiety, aggression related problems.

Speaker 2 (05:05)
Yeah, the biggest issue we have is that aggression is a term that's plastered for any dog that's showing a tendency to bite or do something. And I remember probably about 25 years ago, we finally got some things going through as, it's not just aggression. Now we have

dominance aggression, fear aggression, and sex, you know, all these different aggressions, right? And I remember the thing that really hit home with me, he says that the sterilization will, in terms of reducing aggression, will only have an effect on inter-male aggression. And that's about it, okay? You're right. What we're seeing now is what I...

I term fear aggression. We should get rid of the aggression part. What we should be calling it is fear reactivity.

Speaker 1 (06:04)
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (06:06)
That way, we're not saying, aggression, solve it by cutting off the testicles. And that way we can get away from that whole moniker and it'll help out.

Speaker 1 (06:19)
100%. And the thing, so obviously where I live in Australia, we have a lot of like remote indigenous communities. So where, you know, there isn't any animals that, you know, most animals are undesexed males and females, and they're, they're allowed to sort of roam freely. I spend a lot of time in these communities, but I also spend a lot of time observing these animals because there's not really any people interfering. And that's the other thing we need to

factor and is most of the time people interfere in things. And that completely goes against nature. So if you watch and I film so many videos of looking at how these entire males and entire females, you know, operate where we've got we're talking about hundreds of animals, hundreds of dogs in these communities. And what you see is they have their social groups. And in those social groups, they operate very harmoniously. They're not there's not particular

lots of aggression and they don't actually roam very far beyond their established sort of social boundary. It's when another, you know, male might come in because he sees, you know, he wants to have a, you know, a chance with the lady that that's where we do see, you know, aggression and issues and fighting and that. But generally speaking, these animals are very harmoniously in these communities and we completely ignore, we ignore that they are capable of that.

and capable of regulating. It's not just that, you know, these absolutely like testosterone raging, you know, want to mount every female. It's not, it's a very complex social system that we in our heads seem unnecessary to interfere with, but they actually self-regulate very, very well. And we, yeah, we interfere, I believe we interfere with that way too much.

Speaker 2 (08:08)
Yeah, yeah, the social situation is what really messes it up, you know, and then we also have a big difference between what happens in, I don't know about Australia, North America versus Europe. And that is we have a whole lot of dogs with testicles running around Europe, you know, and they're doing fine.

Speaker 1 (08:31)
Yeah, and they also have one of the lowest unwanted dog populations. You look at Australia, all where they're just pushing desexing, desexing to sex. It's not our shelters are still full. So is that the answer? I know the context is different, but we can learn from other continents about how they've successfully got to where they are.

Speaker 2 (08:52)
Exactly,

you know, so can go that route. So when you're looking at the role of sterilization and behavior, so what's the main, we already talked a little bit about anxiety or fear, aggression, whatever. What else are you seeing in terms of behavior that we should be looking at?

Speaker 1 (09:12)
So I also look at like, if you've got a, and you see it quite often, you see younger dogs or that puppy adolescent stage that they might not have been desexed yet, but they're fearful, they're more insecure. There's a lot of factors that might've created that. And then we rush to desex that animal. You're going to exacerbate that because if they're already fearful with all those hormones trying to support.

and modulate and provide a calming influence because testosterone is not just a rage hormone, it's also a calming hormone. So is estrogen. So if they're already struggling with that, you know, those behaviors where they're a little bit fearful, a little bit insecure, and then we go and do that, then I see that escalate. And then you're dealing with a dog that, you know, is in and out of various training facilities, but we haven't considered like this all started as a physical problem that we've now just exacerbated.

as well. that's, that's something to, to consider. Like, again, I see it around early, like really early, like we still have some vets here that will desex in that like four to eight weeks, which I think is, you know, horrible. And you see these dogs are so insecure because they haven't even, they probably haven't even had a chance to develop any sort of, you know, hormones within the body. So they haven't had a chance to create any regulation of that. So there's lots of.

stages to think about with that. But also, I just like to set the record straight that like testosterone is not the angry hormone, it does play a calming role as well. So you do see some entire male dogs that have their needs met by their owner. So they give them outlets to roam and not, know, roam and try and look for females, but they give them outlets for roaming and searching. And they don't do that, you know, as an unwanted behavior because those needs have been

been met and therefore they are actually very calm male dogs. They can be around other entire males. So we shouldn't make these connections that two entire males cannot coexist. That's just like not the case. I've seen a house that had five entire males and four females. The females were dissected, but these entire males got on like just the most amazing, it was the most amazing experience I've ever seen. And it's all to do with, you know, how we as the humans play a role.

in how we set up the environment, what outlets do we give those animals, you know, on top of what does that breed need as an outlet, you know, versus another breed, for example. So that's something else to consider as well.

Speaker 2 (11:48)
As you said that, there was a client I had who bred Pomeranians. And it was really interesting seeing her situations because I talked to her about behavior a lot.

Okay, but she had, here's the two contrasts for you. She had these male dogs in there that were used for breeding, know, so they had their, and Pomeranians only have Spanish peanuts for testicles, but they've got these little tiny testicles. And I just remember her male dogs were sweeties. And what I meant is we could do anything with them and felt totally safe with these palms, okay? Flip side is,

She used to get puppies and she sold them. And then we might see them, you know, years later or whatever. But the point is they were put into a different situation and a lot of them were desexed, because that's what you do as a proud parent of a puppy. And then we'd see them at two or three years old and we couldn't handle the little jerks because they're trying to kill us.

Speaker 1 (12:56)
It's

like...

Speaker 2 (12:58)
What's okay, so what did this right and I mean part of it is the social structure and what the owners aren't doing with them anymore Okay, as in it's not the readers who were there. I mean these these had a calm a place right and So there's a lot of things that impact behavior. That's where I'm going here. And yeah, the point is

It's not the testicles or the ovaries in the case of the girls that are determining the outcome.

Speaker 1 (13:30)
No, it's not. And you think about, you know, we do, you know, we do have that generalisation and for good reason that the little dogs, you know, when they come into clinics, they're a little bit feistier. And I think too, that's because you think about, I think about people. And when we look down at like a Chihuahua or a Pomeranian, we're like Godzilla to them. And we always are trying to pick up these little dogs. So, you know, that can exacerbate things from a behavioural perspective because they can't escape that. So what's their only option is to be really narky. That's the only way to...

to tell us that, you know, don't pick me up. Whereas, you know, if you've got a great day and no one's picking up a great day and getting in a great day in space. So the behavior, you know, can exacerbate in little dogs. And yeah, that could have been a result of the spay neuter, but it's part of the puzzle again. We just got to not look at it in isolation. But yeah, I sometimes feel for little dogs. just, heavily pet them and we pick them up and all these kinds of things and they can't.

They can't escape. And then we're like, your little dog's so angry and aggressive. it's like, but you're holding me and I can't escape that.

Speaker 2 (14:36)
Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, what I'm getting here very clearly is if we have a dog that's showing a tendency to be fearful, anxious, worried about life or something like that, that's not the optimal time to say, hey, we're going to take your testicles off and make it so you're better, you're calmer or anything like that. It's not going to work, is it?

Speaker 1 (15:03)
No, and I think the biggest thing to remember is, especially for growing dogs, we tend to, we have what's called fear periods. So there's usually about three fear phases or fear periods where a dog might be going really well and might be really confident. And then you sort of wake up and feel like they're afraid of the world, you know, and that's because their body's changing. They're going through the next growth period. It's a fear phase and we need to allow the animal to work through that. And those fear phases tend to be at

around that six to eight months, around the 10 to 12 months and around the 18 months. And what are they? Those are three key ages that we try to encourage desexing. And it's like, no, no, because the, you know, the body's trying to cope with, you know, growing, but also, you know, adjust to these, you know, fears and you know, those fear phases can last a couple of weeks. It might last a month. You know, it's different to the, the animal, but it also correlates to when we, those.

you know, three key pages we got to desex as well. And it's like, well, you know, let's look at that and go, is that the best time? But also it's not a question that's asked. know, we don't, just don't just get dropped off for desexing. There's no question around what behaviour that they're currently presenting with. You know, are they fearful? Are they aggressive? It's just, we drop them off because we're doing our bit for society and we're stopping unwanted litters. It's so much bigger than that.

Speaker 2 (16:28)
Yeah. And the way I always look at it this way, if you've got a dog and you're looking at getting them neutered, you're not the problem out in the world. Okay. It's the people that aren't getting their dogs neutered that are the ones who are contributing to overpopulation. Right.

Speaker 1 (16:47)
Yeah, you're spot on. It's to do with responsible pet ownership. And you can be a responsible pet owner and not have unwanted litters with entire dogs living in your house. That's me. My dogs have not been responsible for any unwanted litters, but I do have a dog that is undisaggable. He doesn't roam. you know, his needs are met. Do I, in, you know, in Australian society, I'm probably deemed an

I'm a irresponsible pet owner, but I think I'm a very responsible pet owner who's advocating for the health of my animal as well. you know, it's about understanding your animal and making decisions based on that and also, you know, not doing things lightly. you know, there are of course cases where desexing might be

the best option. And that also comes down to, might not be the best option for the dog, but if that's the environment that it's living in and that's a, know, parameters in which the owner can manage the dog, then, you know, then yeah, okay, that, that's something to consider from a behavioral perspective too. We're not here to say, don't, don't do it. What I'm here to say is to look at the context and go, well, if you can't, you know, give your dog the outlets it needs to, to not roam and to not go looking for

know, dogs in its area to fight with, then okay, maybe it is an option for you. But if we can meet the needs and we can provide all these outlets, then do we need to do it? Maybe not.

Speaker 2 (18:22)
Okay. And also explore the other options for full sterilization, vasectomy, ovary sparing and all that stuff, right? And so there's other things that can be done, you know, and my emphasis is here. And that is, and the fact that you're going to take their organs away is not going to affect their behavior in a positive way to make them a better, a better, it's the same thing.

All bitches should have a litter of puppies because they make a better pet.

Speaker 1 (18:55)
Yeah. I don't know. don't know. I, yeah. I don't know if I've seen, we just don't see a lot of those litter cases up here because we just, we dissect everything. It's just like line them up and dissect them. you know, they put them in holes and dissect them up here. just, yeah, that's not a lot. And I don't see a lot of responsible breeding, but that's a different discussion. But my point is when you talk about behavior, you know, another common,

one I see all the time is I'm gonna desex my male or my female dog is because, you know, they're humping. You really need to understand that sort of, which is a form of hyper arousal, okay? We're all humans, we understand that, but that doesn't mean that taking away those hormones is going to stop that. That dog could just be super frustrated. You are not giving it outlets. It needs to be a dog.

So, you you might think you're solving a problem, but then when you get at home and a week later, it's still doing that. You know, we need to, we need to think about how to get her out.

Speaker 2 (19:59)
Yeah. Our first dog, Courtney, and she was a lab pit bull cross. And, uh, by the time she finished about 55 pounds, we, we, uh, this was back. I'm not kidding. Oh, God, it is 35 years ago. So she, she was spayed when she was six months old. Okay. And the, the, the, the, was very apparent when she was a year old is she likes humping.

And if she saw, we call it a little brown dog syndrome. If she saw a little brown dog that was a little bit shorter than her, she would go along beside it. And then as I called it, she would do the accordion. And she's just standing beside this dog, humping, know, in a sense, faux humping, because she's not over top of the dog, but she's inside it. And then if you went in front of her and go, hello, where are you?

I mean, she was on another planet.

Speaker 1 (20:58)
Yeah, and we just don't understand, like there's that there's so much chemical stuff going on there that we're like, we don't even, we haven't even begun to understand that like chemical communication side of animals, which is like fascinating all these things they do.

Speaker 2 (21:15)
No, she had that hardwired. It had nothing to do with sex. Nothing. It's fulfilling. Yeah, and that's what she did, you know? And we see that when dogs get stimulated as in, I'm playing, they just end up doing that. My wife, actually, where I met her, she was a shepherd of a sheep flock. Okay? Yeah. And the lambs, when they are...

Speaker 1 (21:21)
It was just...

Speaker 2 (21:44)
two to three months old, they're all humping each other.

Speaker 1 (21:50)
Yeah. And you see it. So you see it in puppies. When puppies are allowed to play, they will go through like, I call it a kaleidoscope of behaviors from everything. You see it. They mouth, they bite, they nip, they chase, they hump. And owners look, you know, in puppy school and you go, no, like they're, they're experiencing all of that to work out, you know, when to use it, when not to use it. What one do I get in trouble for from the other dog?

Well, when does an older dog in the house maybe come and tell me off and things like that? It's not that they're doing all these unwanted things. They're learning. And the only way to learn is to test the waters, to experience all these behaviors and how they feel and how the bigger social hierarchy reacts to that. the human social hierarchy says no to everything.

Speaker 2 (22:38)
Yeah, I had a vet friend who had two boys and her summary related to dog behavior was this. He says she had a five-year-old and a four-year-old son. She says put them outside, give them both a stick, give them five minutes, one of them is going to be hurt.

That's it, right? So the point is those behaviors are gonna happen no matter what. so we've hit a lot of things. I love it. We've also abolished a lot of myths here. So this will be a really good training session for anyone who's gonna be raising a puppy here. So any final thoughts?

Speaker 1 (23:05)
Yeah.

But we lied to do.

The only thing I thought that I might mention is that there is also a little bit of research around that desexing can impact the neurotransmitter serotonin. And we know serotonin is like that happy calming hormone. And we just, again, it's something worth considering. if you've got, what if you already had a dog that had low serotonin levels before they were desexed and then, and showing maybe signs of

you know, fear or aggression. And then we weren't aware of it, but then we desex the dog and then we have this exacerbated, you know, behavioral anxiety problems. Again, like I said, anxiety with dogs at the moment in Australia is just like ridiculously through the roof. And I'd love to do a study on it, but yeah, so we don't ignore that serotonin we know reduces when desexing happens as well, which plays a role in regulating anxiety and things like that. So another thing to consider when making decisions.

Speaker 2 (24:24)
Yeah. So obviously if we've got a prone, dog that's on the edge, prone to anxiety, don't push it right now and avoid the fear periods that you were talking about. Yep. You know, and which means really guys do it past two years if you're going to do it. That's rough way to look at it. And I totally agree because you brought it up. totally agree. Pediatric

spaying and neutering. yes, kennels, rescue organizations are trying to keep the numbers down. They don't want animals going out with organs. But it's really, we know now, it's really not helping these little guys.

Speaker 1 (25:07)
Yeah, no, and this is what I say, like there's a dark side to that welfare aspect. And I would really love to see a lot more outreach in education around responsible pet ownership. And that's not just to do with DSEXing, that's just about understanding animals' needs and health generally. But we can do it through the avenue of unwanted creating, not wanting to create extra animal population. But I just don't see that advocacy channel happening as much as I would like to see.

Speaker 2 (25:36)
Yeah, they're very good. Okay. Well, thank you very much for coming on board, Ross. This is good. We've hit a few things. We've certainly gone into the controversial waiting pool as well.

Speaker 1 (25:42)
So happy