Todd Hargrove On Evolution, Childhood Development, And Better Movement

If you’ve ever been told your squat is “wrong,” this conversation will change how you think about movement, pain, and coaching. We sit down with author and Feldenkrais practitioner Todd Hargrove to connect three big ideas: how humans evolved to move, how babies develop skill without coaching, and how pain reshapes the brain’s map of the body. The result is a refreshing framework for training that values awareness, variability, and play over rigid cues and one-size-fits-all fixes.

Todd breaks down Feldenkrais as “structured baby play”—slow, mindful lessons that compare different versions of the same movement so your nervous system can feel what works. We dig into why chronic pain often dulls proprioception, how left–right discrimination reveals smudged cortical maps, and how graded motor imagery and simple sensory drills can redraw those maps. Instead of chasing a single corrective, Todd shows how to create learning environments where solutions emerge from exploration, not command-and-control coaching.

We also zoom out to the evolutionary blueprint: millions of years of climbing shaped our shoulders, and every child’s instinct to crawl, hang, roll, and squat is nature’s curriculum. Todd explains transfer—why some fundamentals like squatting and hanging support many tasks, while hyper-specific drills don’t—and why playful, variable practice sticks better than repetitive “work.” Along the way, we compare top-down information-processing models with ecological dynamics, land on a practical middle ground, and draw a clear line between complicated problems you fix like a bike and complex ones you grow like a garden.

If you want to move with less pain and more skill, this is a roadmap: correct less, notice more, and make training feel like an adventure. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a fresh take on pain and performance, and leave a review with one playful drill you’ll try this week.

Transcript

Jeff Introduces Todd Hargrove

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, Jeff here, down the rabbit hole, back with another podcast. Sorry, it's been a minute. Had some things in life kind of come up that's uh been unexpected, that's that's consumed my my time and energy. But uh glad to be back, glad to uh to have this next guest. His name is Todd Hargrove. Todd is an author, a uh massage therapist, a Feldenkrais practitioner, a former lawyer, uh an a uh public speaker. Todd has been I I've been following his work. Um, shoot, I think it dates back to like 2010. Honestly, maybe 15 years. I've been reading his blogs, his books. He has two books with a third on the way. Um, very interested. Todd is well known for his ideas on movement and pain. Uh he has studied these two uh these two things extensively and have written about it uh in two excellent books. Um and he's got a third one on the way, as I mentioned, that uh he is I I subscribed to Todd. He he has a blog on Substack, which uh you have to pay to be a member, which I highly recommend doing. And for the last uh maybe six, seven months, Todd's been putting a chapter out in his new book on Substack to his subscribers, and it caught my interest. Now, I've again I've been reading his work for the last 15 years, but what he's writing about in this new book for anyone that's been listening to my podcast, um it it's it's literally it's like him and I talked and he just decided to put this book together. I mean, it's so it's so in line with my thoughts right now on movement, on pain, uh, on just training and everything in general. Uh it's Todd is writing about taking a both an evolutionary standpoint to how we develop and how we learn to move, as well as a neuro, neurodevelopmental standpoint for how babies learn to move. And he's combining the two. And it's such a I think awesome and refreshing perspective because there are books out there that that solely look at evolution or books out there and information out there just that solely look at from a neurological developmental standpoint. And he is marrying the two, and that is exactly where I'm at in my line of thinking. And so as soon as I started reading these chapters on a Substack, I was like, I gotta talk to this guy, I gotta get him on because it's in line with everything I've already been posting, you know, from my conversations with Matt Belay about neurological development and posture to to Dr. Malilo in neurological development and in brain hemispheres in primitive reflexes to to parkour movement with with Shelby and Anna and just all the other people I've been having. And and Todd is been is putting it together in this excellent book that I highly recommend. And uh each month I look forward to him putting out a new chapter. So, anyways, I wanted to get him on, and he was so kind to come on and we just talk about his kind of evolution, how we got into this field, because he has a very unconventional path. And uh yeah, I hope you enjoy this podcast as much as I do. Please give me a like and a

Todd’s Path From Law To Movement

SPEAKER_00 3:13

share. Uh, I agree with Todd if it's okay for maybe the few, if if uh any that are listening that may not know who you are or anything about you who haven't been around in the industry for the last shit, what, almost 20 years, reading your blogs and listening to your podcasts and other things, sir. Do you mind mind explaining who you are and and and what you do?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Yeah, let's see here. Um I uh am uh I write about uh uh better movement, better movement. I write about um trying to moving more, moving with more skill and moving with more comfort and less pain is like the general topic. I've been blogging about those things for, I don't know, at least 15 years. I've written a couple books, sometimes do some teaching. Uh I was a massage therapist. I did that for about 15 years. I'm a Feldenkrais practitioner. That's kind of a uh kind of a motor learning technique. Uh and so I'm kind of interested in evolution and complexity and exercise science and motor control and physical therapy and kind of how all those different things fit together. What's the relationship between moving better and feeling better? And uh yeah, I just kind of like um uh I'm very interested in all those topics.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

And those are all topics I'm also interested in too, and that's why I wanted to get you on here, sir. So uh if you don't mind, you have a bit of an unconventional path uh into to where you got to now. And so if you don't mind, just kind of explain, you know, you you were correct me if I'm wrong, you were a lawyer, not sure what's going on. I was a lawyer, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

So I was I was a lawyer for about 10 years, and uh during that time I was starting to have a lot of uh chronic pain. This kind of in my 20s, I was having uh a lot of pain, and it was kind of getting my attention. Uh at the same time, I was kind of very interested in getting better at sports, just because I was, and I was very kind of interested in a kind of a scientific approach to getting better at sports, which back in the early 2000s was not a very popular uh idea. Uh but those two things kind of came together when I was reading stuff by like Gray Cook and Michael Boyle, who were um, you know, trainers listening to the physical therapists or physical therapists listening to the trainers and kind of putting together ideas of moving better and feeling better. Are these things related? Uh very interested in that topic. Started doing yoga and Feldenkrais and uh corrective exercise and kettlebells and kind of anything that I could get my hands on that had something to do with these topics, and I ended up feeling a lot better. Got rid of all my pain, kind of really changed my attitude about um, you know, what causes pain and what can be done about it. My idea was I'm getting older and things are going to get worse. And it was, and I was like, oh my God, I feel so much better. I have all this uh empathy for other people that are feeling bad, and um I'd like to help them. I realized I was just so interested in in the topic that I quit being a lawyer and like, I'm gonna go to school to be a physical therapist. That took three years, didn't have enough time, decided to be a massage therapist and kind of work at the same thing, did that for a while, started writing about it, people listened for some reason. Then I made my blog into books, and then and that's kind of the story.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

So were you always interested in movement, or was it just kind of in in your twenties when all of a sudden you had these pains and you're trying to figure out?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

No, it was in my 20s. I was always interested in sports. I grew up playing racket sports and and other ball sports and things like that, and I like them, but I was not at all um kind of interested them interested in applying a kind of rigorous scientific perspective to get better at them. And in fact, that that whole idea didn't even so much exist when I would when I was doing this in the 80s and the 90s. It was just like, go practice your sport and do it. This idea of applying like the scientific lens to movement and sport was a little bit of a new idea at the time. And it really kind of uh uh something I just became so interested in.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Would there was there like one specific instant where you're like, all right, that's it, I'm gonna just leave my day job and and go do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

I was sitting, I was sitting there and uh in my in my law office, and I was kind of doing some research online for about shoulder pain or something like that. And I saw that

Feldenkrais Explained: Structured Baby Play

SPEAKER_02 7:44

there was a conference on shoulder pain coming to Seattle, you know, like four, I don't know, for like surgeons or physical therapists or something. I'm like, I'd really like to go to that. It's like, wait a minute. You know, I have to do continuing legal education all the time, and there's conferences coming to town on like, you know, like bankruptcy law or this litigation, and I don't get interested in going to those. Maybe I should change my profession.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Okay. Um, now what's interesting is you you're you're you're one of the things you're known for is Feldenkraist. And uh um first of all, I'm curious, you know, you mind explaining to listeners what what that is, and then second of all, how did you find it? I mean, was it something that just kind of found you? There was a class right down at the Y that you decided to go to, or was that something you looked into and tried to find?

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Yeah, I'm sure I found it online, but Feldenkrais uh is uh a method for uh moving better and feeling better, developed by a guy named Moshe Feldenkrais, and it involves these 40 to 50 minute uh lessons that are taught in the nature of a yoga class, a group lesson where the teacher takes the students through some very slow, mindful movements, all organized around improving a particular movement. So one of the classes will be about crawling, and one of them will be about rolling, and one of them will be about reaching, and you engage in these really slow, mindful kind of variations on the same movement. Like you may spend like 45 minutes just rolling from your front to your back and noticing exactly how it feels, all these small, subtle details. Uh, it's kind of a mindfulness practice, it's kind of a movement practice, kind of in the nature of really kind of slow yoga. But I just got a I thought found that was very interesting, the level of detail, like looking at movement under a microscope, making subtle improvements, becoming aware of things that you're not aware of. I got a lot out of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I've heard you say that uh the Belden Christ class or session is basically like structured baby play.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

That's a good way to put it. Yes, highly structured uh baby play.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I like that. Now, uh I'm also very interested in neurological development. Uh I've had Dr. Robert Malilo, who's one of the world's experts in neurological development and in uh uh neurodivergence umbrella term uh studies and things like that. Uh that is a deep passion of mine and something that I do here with my practice. You know, I'm curious with Feldenkrais. Like, do you know why he started looking at that or how that kind of, you know what I mean, started started to uh evolve into more of a therapeutic thing with him and then with you?

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yeah. So yeah, Feldenkrais was interested in um, let's see, he was a scientist and a martial artist. So he drew from, I suppose he's quite the generalist, he he was interested in a lot of things. Uh, a lot of different fields were, you know, giving him insight into how human beings move, how they learn to move, what are good movements for them. Uh, and one of them was like this developmental perspective, which I think is a very good way to learn how we learn to move, because babies uh learn very quickly about how to move, and they do it without any coaching, and they kind of figure it out uh by themselves through exploration and engaging with the environment and just being motivated to explore things. And so there's a lot of lessons there for us about how humans learn to move, and that informed his approach, which is very play-based and exploratory, and also involving movements that humans are like naturally good at doing, like reaching for things and crawling and getting into squat positions and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Now, who who's a like who's the the aim, who is the directed uh audience that the Feldenkrais is kind of for? Is it for people in pain? Is it for elderly? Is there just kind of general pop? Or, you know, what what you know who who what can it help with? Who can it help with in your opinion, sir?

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, I'll give you two two answers to that. From Feldenkrais' perspective, it's for everybody that wants to work on their personal development, because for him, his idea was that movement is related to thinking and emotion and just kind of like the the whole sense of self. And he intended it to be kind of a personal development type of a method in the same way that you you would maybe go to a yoga class or do a martial arts class for like personal development and mindfulness and stuff like that. Like that. I would say anybody who's interested in mindfulness or exploring the mind through the body would like uh Feldenkrais. I think it's also useful for dealing with certain types of pain problems or certain types of functional uh problems. In my opinion, it's not much more effective for those things than uh other forms of exercise. It is one of many forms of like exercise

Who Benefits From Feldenkrais And Why

SPEAKER_02 12:40

or intervention that can help people with those things, but it's not necessarily better than any other. There's many different pathways to try and improve those things. Feldenkrais is one. I would recommend Feldenkrais to anybody who is curious about it. Just it kind of sounds interesting to them, and they've had good experiences with other mind-body techniques. Because I think there's like different responders to these things. Some people will do a Feldenkrais lesson slowly rolling around the floor and say, Wow, that was so interesting. That was so cool, I feel so much better. Other people will say, I'm not really sure what we we're doing right there. So there's a wide variety of response uh to this, just as there is any other kind of exercise.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yes, sir. Um yeah, no, in I I think it was in one of your books you talk about how movement is like a language and and the basic neurodevelopmental movements such as creeping and crawling and and squatting and things are are kind of the the simple letters, the simple words, and we need those in order to form more complex sentences. And I and I love that analogy. Um right? You see, okay, I I got it.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

I like that I like that. Yeah, the that the idea that we should focus on movement fundamentals or primal movements is uh, you know, a lot of people have said that uh, and it's kind of that idea is kind of embedded in almost any sort of exercise program. That's why in the gym you see people doing squats and lunges and pushes and pulls, the idea that these are like fundamental building blocks that can be put together uh in other ways. It's in Feldenkrais, uh, it's in kind of evolutionary perspectives and developmental perspectives, all of which I really like. You know, this question of what are the essential movements that have the most transfer, I find very kind of fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Now, can I just piggyback off that transfer to what?

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Uh transfer to other stuff. So if you go out and you um, you know, practice your tennis serve to get good at movement, you'll get better at hitting a tennis serve, but you won't get better at anything else. But if you go practice your squatting, the idea is, well, that might make you better at walking, that might make you better at running, that might make you better at baseball, basketball, and a tennis serve as well. So there's different so not all movements practic, not all movements are created the same in terms of their transfer or carryover to other other things.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yes, sir. Um, and then I've heard you say that uh a quote from uh uh Beldenkrais that it's incorrect to correct. Would you mind kind of explaining that and how that applies to those basic movements and and and then us as practitioners trying to uh instruct our our our clients as well?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Yeah, so the idea is you're trying to help people move better. And one way to do that is to use a very corrective approach and to say, show me a squat, aha, that's wrong, you're doing it wrong, this is out of alignment. Uh, I'd like you to do it this way. Feldenkrais didn't try to teach people to get better at movement through doing that. He had them explore the movement uh and play with the movement. He wouldn't even tell them what's right or wrong. He would say, do the movement this way, now try to do the movement the other way. As you're doing it, notice exactly what's happening. Notice how easy the movement is, notice how much range of motion you're getting, notice how smooth the movement is. The idea being to help the student discover for themselves what works best for them. Uh, and that's a different kind of learning, a learning through trial and error and exploration and self-discovery. And then it's supposed to be more kind of a robust, individualized form of learning. And that's the way kids learn to move. Nobody, nobody is watching a kid roll over, learning to roll over and say, you need to activate your core more, baby. This will work better. The kids just do what they do and they learn it.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yes, sir. So a Feldenreist uh Feldenkrais class or what you're going through something is is very slow. It's trying to bring more pro-perception, more awareness to the person reaching, you're trying to bring more sensory information to that, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah, yeah. You're you're just trying to set up a learning environment where uh the students can go through a series of movement experiments and figure out what works

Fundamentals, Transfer, And Movement Vocabulary

SPEAKER_02 16:59

best for them. So, like uh, like if you were doing a squatting style lesson, you can say, okay, um, you know, squat down to this stool or this chair and lightly touch down and come back up again, and just notice how much effort you used. And you can kind of you slowly direct their attention to different aspects of the movement, uh, how hard it was, how much range of motion they got, the comfort in different joints, take them through different explorations, different uh foot orientations, you know, further apart, closer together, different uh positions for you know, different body parts, different constraints. And, you know, over time they learn about lots of different ways to squat, expand the movement vocabulary, they learn which ones are easiest for them in particular, as opposed to just being told, I want you to squat exactly this way, which might not actually be the best way for that particular person to squat. And even if it is, it doesn't create the kind of learning that, you know, kind of self-discovery would.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

And then from a pain science, but also neuroscience standpoint, I'm interested because you've talked about in blogs, I've seen it in uh chapters in your book, and I've heard you on other podcasts talk about the role of proprioception in pain. And I'm very interested in that because that is something I test for when we have athletes who repeat ankle sprains or or things like that, right? We do the two two two touch tests or two-toe tests, we'll do the two-point discrimination tests, we'll do other tactile things. I have uh uh a sensory garden on my floor that I'll make people walk on uh to try to get a little more information. But I'm very interested in in the connection between pro-perception and pain, if you wouldn't mind uh kind of getting into that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah, that's that's uh that's uh a big one. The um, so you know, the the uh uh I think one of the things that we definitely know is that when people have chronic pain in in an area like like you mentioned, an ankle or the low back, they start to lose uh proprioception in those areas as well. They lose their body sense, they lose their kinesthesia, they lose, they lose their awareness of what's going on there. Uh it you know, an easy way to understand it might be that you know the way we have that body sense is that all of these proprioceptors in that area are sending sensory information to the brain, and the brain's like listening to it and trying to understand what it's saying, and that's what gives us its sense of where everything is in space and what it's doing, and that sense is used to organize the movement. But when there's also pain in the area, there is a bunch of nosoception, pain signals coming up to the brain, and that's distracting the brain, and you know, the brain's listening to all those danger signals, it has less time to listen to the proprioceptive signals, and so those proprioceptive signals get kind of drowned out, they get fuzzy, the whole sense of what's going on there you know, becomes less. And then sometimes even when the injury is gone and those pain signals are not there, the the kind of the blurriness of the perception in that area remains, and restoring it through some kind of like efforts to be very discriminating about what's going on there uh can kind of restore the clarity of like the map of that area.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yes, sir. Well, tying in with the maps, you are the only person outside of Dr. Malilo and and and some of the people that I I've studied for neurological development uh that have talked about right-left discrimination and pain. I find that very fascinating because I've I I see that all the time. I I would say more than 50% of my clients don't know they're right from their left. Um and but I'm curious because I once I once I think I heard it or read it from you, I tried to find all these research on, and they were done mostly on, I think either shoulders or wrists. But uh I didn't see in there, maybe,

It’s Incorrect To Correct: Coaching By Exploration

SPEAKER_00 20:58

maybe you can talk a little more about it, uh, if they did any before and then after, you know what I mean? Before they got hurt, their their right left discrimination was this, but then after it became this. Because what I've seen, sir, it's pretty crappy all around before injury. But I'm just curious if you can talk more about that in brain maps, because you you you go into good detail about talking about the brain maps and the areas of the brain. But uh, you were the only one, again, that's talked about right-left discrimination. And I find that so so fascinating because that is part of that tying back into that neurological development that's tied into that's where you know the right and left development is tied in with creeping and crawling and the asymmetric tonic neck reflex and and all the developmental things that you get into.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Uh-huh. Are you familiar with the work of Lorimer Mosley in the book Explain Pain and his uh and and the book Graded Motor Imagery? No, sir. You should check those out because that's a very good source of information on differences in left-right discrimination between people in pain and not pain. And also uh in using left-right discriminations in the graded motor imagery uh treatments to help people with uh chronic pain.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yes, sir. I have apps on my uh on my iPad around the gym and we'll do that a lot uh for the Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Like so you look at a hand and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

You gotta tell you got to tell if it's a right hand, if you gotta tell if it's a left hand, you gotta tell if it's a foot, whatever it is. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah, this is something you probably have more experience with than me. So that so the basic idea is that if you look at a just a picture of a hand in a in a kind of just a disembodied picture of a hand, for those that don't know this, you have an ability to see whether that's a left hand or a right hand. And to do that, you're kind of taking advantage of your own internal maps in the brain that kind of process information from your hand and you're activating them to kind of like you're kind of like mentally rotating your hand or you're into that position. And you say, aha, that's a uh that's a left hand or a right hand. And as it turns out, people with chronic pain, interestingly, are slower at doing this than other people. And it's probably because their internal body sense has been disturbed by all of the pain in that area. The brain's getting kind of better at processing pain signals and worse at processing proprioceptive signals. And there are some treatments, graded motor imagery, where they try to restore people's ability to do that by actually practicing looking at these pictures. And so you're kind of like taking advantage of that type of your brain. The idea is that part of your brain kind of got fuzzy and we want it to be more clear. Uh and again, yeah, Lorimer Mosley is the is the person who's written the most about this and a very good source of information.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Awesome. No, that will be on my Amazon list tonight. Thank you uh for the answer. No, I'm very again, uh I've seen it so much with neurological development and the it's uh I believe at the stage one or two competency, as far as if you're familiar with the pyramid of learning that was developed by educational psychologist uh Woodworth and shit. There's two guys in like 1909 or something that they came up with the pyramid of learning, and it's kind of a blueprint as far as the stages in which the brain development. And uh uh it's a right below, right above um primitive reflexes, proprioception. Then there's kind of right-left discrimination. That's where the the crawling and the creeping should come in, and that's where we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Well, the crossing the midline kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Crossing midline, and that's where we get into all that. And the asymmetric tonic neck reflex helps integrate that right and left discrimination. And uh that's something I I check for because uh, you know, I don't know how much you've gone down the rabbit hole of looking at uh primitive reflexes, but if they're still integrated, uh they can present themselves as kids that have or adults that have, again, right and left issues, midline issues, uh uh convergence eye issues that have

Proprioception, Pain, And Fuzzy Body Maps

SPEAKER_00 24:58

uh eye hand coordination issues, uh, you know, and and things like that. So I'm very interested, and uh it was very exciting to see someone actually talking about that. So thank you. I'll I'll definitely have to get those those uh books.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My my knowledge about that other stuff you're talking about is uh more cursory and uh not as detailed as as yours for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

No, that's that's that's awesome. Now um I I've heard you describe uh motor learning. So I'm very interested in in motor learning, and uh I'm not sure where you fall on that uh spectrum of like a top-down to bottom-up approach, because I've I've heard you talk top-down uh with with some Feldenkrais and some awareness things, but then I've heard you talk to Rob Gray a couple times and and and uh relate Feldenkrais to Bernstein's ideas of self-organization and things. But uh uh I you you gave, I think it was I can't remember the podcast, this great analogy talking about the different theories of modal learning. And I would love for you to get into it as uh as forms of government. I don't know if you remember this.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

So you you you described each stage theory as a you're following this lot club, Mubban. You're you're really uh picked up on a a very uh detailed idea there.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Well, again, I'm I'm very interested in I've had uh I've had Tyler Yearberry, who's uh a co-worker and co-author with Rob Gray on and I would consider Tyler a friend, and I'm very interested in the the ecological dynamic side of things, but I don't for me personally, I don't believe it's all that. Uh you know, only Sith Lord's work in absolute, sir. Right? So for those a little Star Wars.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

So I think to me, motor control is very complex. It's like this is one of the most complex uh things that that we know about. You know, the the nervous system's ability to control movement is is like an unbelievable accomplishment. It's it's you know, our our the the information processing that goes on to control a human body is probably more sophisticated than than controlling our thoughts and our emotions, which which we think of as being pretty complex. And of course they are, but it's it's an even harder problem to solve to control a body, which is why the LLMs are talking and thinking as well as us, but their robots are not able to load up dishwashers yet. Um it's so complex, and there are all these models out there, and some of them, as you say, are more of these top-down models that emphasize the role of the brain, information processing, computers, representations, top-down control of movement. There's the more ecological models that say these are all emergent effects of decentralized information processing all throughout the body, and it's all about interaction with the environment, and these ideas about representations and computers and information processing are not good. I think they both make good points. I think they fight with each other a lot, and there's kind of like they're protecting their academic turf. But in reality, you get some insight from all of these models. We need as many as we can. There's not going to be any one perfect one that figures it all out because the complexity of this problem, it's like a million-sided diamond. And every one of these models allows you to look at

Left–Right Discrimination And Graded Motor Imagery

SPEAKER_02 28:20

one or two of the sides. And it's cool to listen, to know the strengths and weaknesses of each one and pick and choose which one is going to help you with the particular problem that you have. Like Rob Gray's model, the more ecological approach, it brings into clarity a lot of things that are fuzzy and not easy to see with the more kind of top-down, you know, brain-based, computer-based models. But you know, there's other problems in in reverse where you you would maybe prefer this kind of you know, information processing type of a model. So I like I like them both.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Me too, sir. I'm I'm with you. I'm a middle of the fence guy. It just kind of depends for me. It depends on who I'm working with and what we're trying to achieve. Absolutely. Um, no, but no, awesome. Well, thank you. Because yeah, for whatever reason, we we have a very polarizing industry that just like it's either or it's gotta be one or the other. And I just, you know, uh they're theories, they're not principles, right? So it describes part of the picture, as you said, a part of the diamond, but not not the whole diamond. Um no, so I I love that. Uh you know, and uh with with with that said, as far as the mode learning and stuff like that, I'm very interested in your before we get to the the newest book that you're currently writing. Your last book, you talk about playing with movement. And I absolutely love that because I I've I've been in the industry. I've been fortunate to be in this industry, sir, for the strength industry for about 20 years, and I've kind of seen the trends of you know, powerlifting to CrossFit to all this stuff, and it's they all are good and they all have their place, but I I See a lot of burnout with people. And I love the idea of making fitness and movement fun and playful versus just like I gotta go on the stair stepper and I have to do this elliptical. I have to go do these things. Um, you know, you you you uh your your last book, you know, uh the guide to better or yeah, better movement and play, or that was the first one. Uh we're playing with movement. Would you mind describing or or talking about why is play so important? Why is movement variability in in things so important for people and the nervous system and and all the stuff that you kind of get into?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Yeah, so I kind of like one way to think about what the book is saying is that I kind of form this dichotomy between play and work as like two ways to solve a problem. So playing with solving a problem is is when part of it is your motivational state. When kids play to learn how to move or learn how to build something, or when any of us are kind of in a more playful state, there's an intrinsic motivation to do the thing. You're doing the thing just because you like to do the thing. Dogs are out there running after the ball, not to get fit or look good in a bathing suit. They actually just want to chase the ball. If you're out running around, you might be doing that with a playful motivation, like I just love running, or you might be doing it in a completely extrinsic motivation type of a way. I just want to lose weight, I just want to be healthy, I actually hate what I'm doing. Uh, this is important because it affects whether you show up and it affects like the, you know, it affects your hormonal state. Uh another aspect of play is that it tends to be very variable. It's not this repetitive thing that you do the same way every time. So running in a more playful way would involve different speeds, like the way kids run around, the way dogs run around. They change directions, they chase a ball, they chase a person. It's kind of variable. It's the same but variable. All of this this most of the sports we play have this kind of same but different type of a thing. There's a ball there, there's an opponent there. You're always trying to do the same thing,

Motor Learning Models: Top-Down Meets Ecological

SPEAKER_02 32:05

but you keep getting presented with variable situations. When you're doing work, it's more repetitive. You go out and run at exactly the same pace and exactly the same direction and exactly the same surface. You go lift the same weights, and you don't kind of train as many different capacities. These are both useful ways to go about things. Both play and work are important in our society. We've tipped the balance too much towards work, our exercise is not playful enough, it's not intrinsically motivated enough, it's not variable enough. That's the basic idea.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

And you uh I've heard you say that all intelligent animals play. And then we learn the we learn the fastest through play, and I absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah, and the more intelligent, the more play that goes on, the longer their childhood is, the more they're engaged in these exploratory activities that are very self-motivated. Uh, if the animal's not that smart, it can just have this simple program for behavior kind of downloaded through the genes and they just go do it. But animals like elephants and dolphins and and and the really smart ones, all of these animals are very curious. They're very intrinsically motivated to explore.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Um, so what age should we stop playing?

SPEAKER_02 33:22

We should keep going. You know, we're this we're the smartest animals, so we, you know, you should keep playing as long as you want to keep uh developing. You know, I mean, obviously, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

No, sorry, sorry, keep keep going. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

I mean, that there is this kind of trade-off. I mean, you you do some, you know, the basic the way life is set up is there's certain points in your life where you're supposed to be playing a little bit more, and then you figure things out, and then you start repeating what you figured out, and you you explore for a while, and then you exploit what you've learned, and you you use that exploitation to, you know, kind of maximize return on these things we need to do, like making money and getting food and stuff like that. But, you know, you got to keep playing to some extent. That's what keeps you uh young.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

I I thank you. I agree. Uh helps helps with brain connections, helps with all types of things. I uh I work with some adults and I I just did a podcast. Um it, gosh, my mind is losing her right now, but um with a woman up in Wisconsin, and uh I wanted to interview her because she she does her business, a large part of her business is she works with elderly adults and she takes them to playgrounds and she teaches in parkour. Oh, yeah, yeah. I absolutely love that. I think that is so needed in this world. I think it is fantastic. And the videos she makes, the the smiles on their faces, and it's just so fun and awesome. And that was such a great uh interview. But uh, I love that. So I've been trying to implement more and more of that with my uh with my elderly adults. Uh, you know, I have I have adults you know 75 through through 80 um that I work with, and we're trying to do more of that, just play, right? Fitness doesn't have to be defined by the dumbbell in your hand. You know, let's let's try to play and bring them back to that stuff. And uh I I love when you you know hearing people talk about that you and Rafe Kelly are big proponents of play. Um and you have an awesome quote that I wrote down that says the pathway to physical wellness is not about following a recipe, but going through a meaningful adventure, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:21

So that's actually I I said that exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Yeah, I wrote it down.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

I forgot that one. Um no, I I agree with it though. It's it's good. It's good. I think that uh it it it really is. It's the only it's you there has to be something meaningful there. I think that anytime you I mean you have to show up, you have to devote a lot of your energy to doing these these types of things, and nobody is showing up for whatever it is that they're doing unless at some point in their life they went through some sort of meaningful adventure to get there. Uh that you know, anything that people are doing, anything that people are repeating and showing up for, they're there for some reason. Uh you know, something must have created that motivation. And if they if they're if they're just kind of, you know, there's only this one thing that they can do, uh, it's kind of limiting. They they need to need to go through another process of exploring something new. And part of what inhibits people so much as they get older is I don't want to do something that I suck at. Kids don't care about sucking at things, and and and animals don't care. They just want to go do the thing. Um but once you that social pressure comes in, and around third grade, kids learn that, oh, some kids are good at gym and some kids are

Play Versus Work: Intrinsic Motivation And Variability

SPEAKER_02 36:42

not, and there's some shame there, it really inhibits people. And if they can somehow uh be okay with going out and doing parkour, even though you're terrible at it, if you can kind of like you know do it, uh it it can be really fun.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah, Rafe said in our last uh uh talk that you know one of the reasons or the reason why we have a brain is for complex, adaptable movement. And so going out and challenging yourself and having that uh that that that a little bit of fear, a little bit anxiety, but also that that big fun is is very powerful for the brain. And does this kind of tie in with uh I think one of your last blog posts, you talk about the comfort uh hypothesis?

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Uh yeah, yeah. Well, I've I've talked about uh I've had a few posts on this about how play is um part of what you're playing with is risk. So when kids are playing, part of what they're learning is what's safe to do and what's not safe to do. And kids are very drawn to uh movements which have the potential for injury. And in fact, they can't really even avoid doing movements that have the potential for injury if they want to grow into a mover because one of their first tasks is to get up and start standing. Well, they're gonna fall all the time. Of course, it's pretty safe for the kids to do that because they're not far from the ground, flexible joints, soft butt, no problem. But when they get up and start running, they fall all the time and they do get they get hurt. Uh they have to be okay with that. And what they're learning is a little part of it is how to fall. Uh, once they can climb on things, they really like climbing on things. They deliberately put themselves in slightly scary conditions as a way to train themselves because that's that's what life is. Uh that uh Peter Gray, the researcher on play, says that all animals, like primate animals, when they're learning to climb, they deliberately put themselves into somewhat dangerous conditions. They jump off things and they put in a little twist. Or when they play with each other, they play rough. Um, they're learning social things about where the line is and where to cross it. They're learning, you know, what what kind of movement can I get away with? What can I not? If they're too safe, if the if their whole priority is never get injured, they'll never learn how to move.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Yes, sir. Um no, and and your views on movement are they strictly shaped from Feldenkrais, or or you know, can you did you are always kind of have this this view on movement should be playful, movement should be uh a little complex, a little challenging, or or did you kind of learn that through Feldenkrais and through other uh you know uh types of rabbit holes?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

I would say that I'm quite the generalist. I think that there are many, many, many different ways to learn about the right way to move. I'm interested in what the dancers have to say and the martial artists and the coaches and the runners and the weightlifters and the power lifters and the bodybuilders and everybody in the science-based perspective and the evidence-based perspective. I want to, they're all kind of like different perspectives on things, and they're all kind of fingers pointing in a certain direction. And when many different fingers are all pointing in the same direction, that's interesting to me. And when they're pointing in different directions, you have to decide which one's right and which one's wrong. But I really want to know, like when I when I hear something about what yoga people say about this is a good thing to do, and it's the same thing that you know, a wrestling tradition says or the dancers say, and and and the science seems to confirm it, then I'm like, that's good evidence in favor of that idea.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yes, sir. So I love the idea, and I actually talked about it today in my uh adult class that I got from you is the difference between complex and complicated. And it seems like we kind of confuse the two or don't know the two. And so we get in these uh sometimes little pissing matches with with certain things. Oh, you should be doing this, you should be doing that, or it's it's this. You mind discussing? Because I loved uh I think it was your conversation with Rafe, uh, one of your conversations with Rafe, where where you talked about the differences between the two and and and how they relate. Wouldn't mind getting into that a little bit, sir?

SPEAKER_02 40:48

I absolutely love this distinction. When I first heard it, I started to see it everywhere, and I tried to explain it. It's a little bit hard to explain, and I'm sure it always comes off. But here's the basic idea complex and complicated sound analogous, and they're often used interchangeably in real life, but you could they can also indicate an important distinction. A complicated system is one with many interrelated parts that interact in complicated ways, but with sufficient expertise, you can identify all of the individual parts in the system and exactly how they relate to each other. And with that with expertise, you can control and predict that uh complicated system uh with incredible precision. So this is why we can build computers and rocket ships and bicycles. If there's a problem with

Risk, Roughhousing, And The Comfort Hypothesis

SPEAKER_02 41:40

a bicycle, which is a complicated system, an expert can find the exact problem with the system and intervene on it and fix it. Uh if you have sufficient expertise, you can send a rocket ship to the moon or understand a DVD. Complex systems are different because there are too many uh parts in the system to account for all of them. There are too many interactions between them, so that no amount of expertise can really help you identify all of them or understand all of their interactions. So complex systems are like people and organ systems and societies and political systems and stuff like that. And in this case, expertise doesn't help you that much. You can be a world-class expert in child development or toddlers, but if that world-class expert tries to predict and control the behavior of a complex toddler, they might not significantly outperform someone with just common sense grandma who's been around a lot of kids. Right? I mean, yeah. So all of your expertise is there. It's real knowledge, but it's just the system is so complex that small errors in measurement lead to huge errors five minutes down the road, 10 minutes down the road, because of like butterfly effects.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

And this this comes in in the expertise of a doctor when they've got a complex problem, like that's related to nutrition or someone's motivation or depression or it or a complex chronic disease, or a physical therapist when they're dealing with chronic pain, or a personal trainer when they're dealing with what is it that's going to motivate this person to get better. These are all complex problems, and we solve them through like just common sense that everybody has. And so what people want to do is find experts to fix them the way a bicycle gets fixed. But if it's a complex problem, it's more of like this common sense type of a problem that's going to get fixed. It's not going to get fixed. We're going to like, we're going to kind of like uh like water the the earth and and and and provide sunshine and help grow a better situation. We're not going to build a better situation.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Well, and that goes into the analogy you talked about being a gardener versus a carpenter.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Yeah, it's exactly that's the best. I could have explained the whole thing right there by saying that. That's a better way to explain it.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Now, why do you feel that we love simple answers? Like the oh, you know, my back hurts, so it must be because it's how I sit.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Well, there are because we look around and science has solved the complicated problems so amazingly. You know, like we've send rocket ships to the moon. Like there are some sorts of medical problems that are more complicated problems. And we use techniques like surgeries and drugs to isolate the one thing that's at fault and fix that thing. And it's miraculous. Uh, but when you've got a medical problem where there's not just one thing at fault, it's more like the system's all out of balance, and that's a lot of things. And you can't use those techniques. Wouldn't it be great if we could? But it but but until we do, we're kind of stuck with these treatments that are more like these generalized common sense things, like, oh, that hurts. Well, maybe you should rest it. Maybe you should eat better, sleep better, exercise a little bit more. We would love it if we could just fix that problem by saying, aha, here's the exact exercise that you need to do to fix that problem. And the clients want to believe it, the physical therapists want to believe it. You know, sometimes we can fix things, but it's it's uh it's not what we want to think that uh-oh, we just have to just kind of like slowly, you know, evolve this in the right direction over time.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

And this may be a really dumb question or or one that is uh I don't know, maybe not not correct, but where does Occam's razor theory kind of come into that? So where you know sometimes sometimes uh the simple answer is the the the the correct one. So my knee hurts, it maybe just it is your knee. Maybe it's not, you know, uh because you you are up till 11 and you eat processed food or you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 45:56

So Occam's razor, Occam's razor says that we should prefer the simple explanation. That's that's what that says? Yes, sir. Yeah, I guess uh yeah, I guess it's not always right. That's

Complexity vs Complicated: Gardener Not Carpenter

SPEAKER_02 46:05

a good question. Um, yeah, I guess that's uh that's not uh uh a universal principle.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Gotcha. Now, do you do you feel that your your systems approach to looking at difficult things like pain and movement? Like where how do you feel that your non-traditional approach to becoming a manual therapist uh and felt in Christ versus someone that went to school for that stuff, you know, how how do you think that's kind of shaped your your view on things? Do you think that's made it more to give you more of a complex lens or more complicated ver versus complicated, which I feel schooling can do?

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Yeah, I think schooling kind of uh wants to sell you on um, you know, more kind of like fixing things, like things are complicated. Like I like I've got this story that I used to illustrate this. I there was this one time when my daughter uh her bike didn't work, like the chain was grinding. And I was like, ooh, that the bike has a movement problem. Something's not moving right. So we take it into the bike mechanic, and I go, this is grinding, this is not, and I and I give it the bike to him, and he goes, hmm, hmm, hmm. And he looks at it, he moves it, he goes, and then he takes out a specialized tool and he and he goes, aha, I know what it is. And he takes out another specialized tool, and five minutes later, the bike is completely fixed. And I was like, I would love to do that with my clients. I would love to do that with my clients. They come in and they say, I've got a movement problem, and I use my expertise and I go, aha, the problem is exactly here using my specialized test, and then I use my special intervention to fix it, and then they're done. And they'd be so appreciative and it would be so great. Um, I can't that occasionally happens, I suppose, but for the for the most part, I'm not able to do that with clients, and there's quite quite a lot of uh teaching in massage or physical therapy that kind of demonstrate this exact thing. You go to one of these seminars and the and the teacher says, I'm gonna demonstrate my technique. Would you come up on the stage right now, please? Okay, you've got to move what's the problem here? Okay, and then they go, aha, I see where the problem is. They do their intervention, and the person goes, it's fixed. Yeah, that's what everyone would love to do.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, that's that holy grail, right? Being able to have that one technique that is just like boom, here you go. You're good. Uh everyone's good. World world problems done. Um now, uh I I I don't want to keep it too much longer, sir, but I do want to get into your new book because I feel you're you're putting the chapters out on Substack for anyone that's listening uh before you release the book. And uh uh as someone who's followed you for a while, I started reading them and you I feel like, and I told you this before we started recording, where you are writing that book and where I am just from a thought process standpoint is just like, oh wow, okay, Todd's Todd's there with me. Um I uh I'm a fan of Ida Portal, uh, who's a movement coach from Israel, and he has this phrase that I've stolen that goes, we're humans first, mover second, specialist third. And the way I look at that, sir, and uh it's just my my view is humans first, okay. Uh one that is how we neurologically developed and how we evolutionally uh developed, right, to become bipedal from quadrupedal to bipedal, and then what are the neurological mechanisms that went into that, right? So I want to make sure that those are there. And you've talked a good bit about posture, and as a posturologist, I'm very interested in in posture, and then we become movers, and that's where your book kind of gets into some of these developmental patterns and how we crawled and the role of of becoming bipedal and the role of climbing trees and and and things like that. But uh, first of all, um will you mind why are you writing this book? Uh, because I absolutely love it. I can't wait for the next chapter, chapter each month to come out. But what what kind of prompted you to write this book in in you know, what's your inspiration? And and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Yeah, so the book is called Healthy Movements for Human Animals. It's basically an evolutionary perspective on exercise. Uh, there are decent amount of other uh books or you know, uh out there that have looked at either nutrition or lots of things from an evolutionary perspective. And you know, some of these are kind of like these uh facile kind of like caveman paleo types of things. I I want to avoid some of the naturalistic fallacies there and some of the simplistic thinking and be aware of some of the limits of evolutionary perspectives on stuff, but I do think it's a very useful perspective. Other people have kind of uh gone here before and in a very simple sense, it might this perspective might tell you something like, oh, it's natural for humans to walk around and run around and squat and crawl and uh climb things, and those are good movements for humans. That's part of the idea, but I want to I want to take it a little bit further uh if possible. Um, you know, one of the analogies I use in the book to understand why this evolutionary perspective is useful is like imagine you found an orphaned animal, or you had to take care of an animal and any kind of animal, figure out how to keep it happy and healthy in terms of it's how it exercises and how it eats. You would just very simply say, How does this animal eat and exercise in natural environments in the wild? I'll try to do something along those lines and assume that it's going to be good for the animal. We tend to forget that humans are animals because we're living in such unnatural environments. We don't even have that much evidence of what it is for humans to live in natural environments, but two good sources of it are what hunter-gatherers do. So part of the book is saying, here's what we know about hunter-gatherers' movement. Here's what we know about how much they squat versus sit and how much they climb and how much they walk and how

Todd’s New Book: Evolutionary And Developmental Lenses

SPEAKER_02 52:03

much they run. It's limited information, but it's interesting. And uh also we have information about how kids move and how kids develop because they live a pretty natural lifestyle for a while. Uh, and that's a good source of information. Another good source of information is just um what we know about evolutionary history. I mean, we know that human ancestors spent about 40 million years in the trees, and that helps us understand why our shoulders are mobile, why we're good at climbing, why kids do the monkey bars effortlessly, things like that. So, what can we learn from these different sources of information? That's what the book is about.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

I love that. Again, uh, not a lot of people, if actually you're the only one that I've seen, and that's just that I've seen that has taken those two perspectives and and put them together. And that's where I am on my my journey with this stuff, uh with between posturology, the neurological development, uh type of things. And I I absolutely love that. And you you have a quote that I'm I'm I I got a couple quotes for you, sir. But the one that says, Evolution is cleverer than you. Um, and I love that because you can't argue with how we developed, you can't you can't argue with those things. Um, you know, that that hanging and climbing is good for us, that we we did that. Uh you can't argue with those. And I think it was um, I think it was you with on a podcast, I think it was with Rafe, where you said, if you I think it I think it was you, correct me if I'm wrong, that if you took 10 babies and you put them on an island, safe food, water, no danger, you know what I mean, on an island. But if you came back in 10 years, you would see those kids climbing, running, you know what I mean, doing all of these developmental things. And they would do that without a parent, without an instructor, without anything. And uh, you know, that is that neurological, that is that that uh that developmental uh side of things. And I I I love that uh because you're you're absolutely right that that these things are innate in us.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Um watching kids is fun. I've had a couple kids, and you know, part of my uh ideas here come from just uh you know watching them do what they do and like monkey bars, for instance, kids don't need to kids really do that. They just like when there's something to hang from, they start hanging from it, they start swinging from it. And they all all most of them learn to do the monkey bars without being coached, without being encouraged or taught what to do. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty neat.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Yeah, and then just get play, you know, tying back into what you're talking about with play. Kids just instinctively play. Uh, I was just, you know, at my son's uh football banquet, which he's seven years old, but before the banquet even started, uh there's 20 kids in this little restaurant. They're playing tag.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Tag is a big tag is a universal animal game.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah, just impromptu in the middle of a restaurant running around like crazy people, just playing tag. Like they just have this innate things in us. And and I don't know where down that line uh of aging that we we just stop that. And so again, that's my love of wanting to learn more about play and the science of play and Rafe's work and your your work have been huge as far as uh uh my education and that stuff. But uh uh yeah, watching kids play is fun.

SPEAKER_02 55:11

Yeah, animal animals too. Another thing that I have in the book is that if when I can, I provide information on other animals because um lots of animals like to play tag or some version of it. You know, dogs at a dog park are kind of playing tag, wrestling with each other a little bit, playing tag, these are really common things that lots of animals are motivated to do. They go out there and they waste their energy on that stuff. They get hurt doing that stuff. It kind of, you know, that there's kind of a paradox when you're studying animal behavior. Why are these animals out there wasting calories on something that's not getting them food, that's not getting them mates? And the idea is uh they're kind of training for life. They're training to either go catch their food if they're a predator, or get away from food if they're prey, uh, or to do some fighting if they if they need to do it. Lots of animals are motivated to do those things and kids as well. Tag and wrestling are super, super common things to do.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Have you ever looked into like play fight or any of that? Or have you gone to any of Rafe's uh retreats to do any of his uh roughhouse stuff?

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Yeah, if I could do it again, I mean, you know, it's interesting. I uh I if if if there's if there's some kind of natural human physical behavior that I have personally not explored very much, it would definitely be combat. You know, when I was young, I did some wrestling and rolling around, but I never done martial arts, so I've never done uh any kind of striking things. And you know, part of that is because uh, you know, I you know perceive myself as not being good at those things, and I'm you know have probably a little bit inhibited to go out there and kind of suck at something or a little bit afraid of getting hurt. So uh yeah, that that that's kind of like a a situation where if I went and did that thing, I'd have to do it at a very, very slow, easy level.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Yes, sir. Um I have not had the good fortune of going to any race retreats, but having purchased his courses and listened to his work for years, we know we implement a lot of that. And one of the big things he talks about is making sure it's scalable so that way you can you can include everybody, you know, from adults to kids that uh that do have apprehension for whether they think they're gonna get hurt or their you know social embarrassment uh to to kids that are just like, I don't give a shit. I'm I'm gonna give it my all and and go. So be able to make it scalable.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

But uh yeah, that's the genius of those things. What you mentioned about the old people doing parkour, that's got to be scalable because a lot of obviously a lot of poor car parkour stuff can get you hurt, and it's hard to scale some of that stuff. If you can do it, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Yeah, no, Shelby has done a great job of uh, because that was one of my questions is okay, now how do you make it scalable, right? And she has a grading system in which she talks about when they're doing an activity and they always have a spotter. So one adult is spotting the other. She does a great job of making sure it's scalable. So if someone's at this level or someone's at this level, they can still do the same activity just with variation. But uh now, last question for you, sir, before I I let you go and I've taken up enough of your time. My podcast is called Down the Rabbit Hole because it is, again, selfishly, it's so I can talk to people like you and uh share with people rabbit holes that I've gone down. And this evolutionary and neurodevelopmental routes are routes that I've been passionate

Kids, Animals, And Innate Play Patterns

SPEAKER_00 58:40

about and have been uh trying to study and whatever. So that's why I wanted to have you on here. But what are some of the weirder rabbit holes that you've maybe have gone down trying to find answers to solving pain or movement? And what are some rabbit holes you're you're currently down now?

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Yeah, I guess right now I'm down the evolutionary rabbit hole. Um, I've been down the uh kind of the neurological rabbit hole. That's uh that was kind of my first book, is this kind of computational nervous system, neurocentric information processing perspective on movement and pain. Uh, the second book was kind of the complexity rabbit hole. What can complexity theory tell us about these same subjects? This is the evolutionary one. These are like these big organizational frameworks that I'm using to look at movement. And so I go down them, I see how much can be learned there. Uh, but then, you know, kind of importantly, you come back out, and because it's not the only rabbit hole that there is. Yes. Part of these rabbit holes, I think part of what you learn with these rabbit holes is just how far they go down, how many alleyways they are, and it kind of like teaches you something about the difficulty of acquiring. Reliable knowledge on any topic. You keep learning more and you keep learning more, but then there's there's a point where it's like, oh, this is this is deeper than I thought. And it teaches you something about not just that whole, but the nature of the world in general is that there's there's something underneath that surface level of almost anything. So it's so in a way you can learn not just about that super specific topic, but about kind of like knowledge in general.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Yes, sir. Uh yeah, and it's I I love going down these because at at first or two, just explaining it to someone at dinner, these holes that these rabbit holes you're going down, it might seem irrelevant to whatever you you do as a l for a living or the the question that they may have asked, but then you find the connections between shit. And that's that's those light bulb moments that I absolutely love having is okay, may seem irrelevant, but it is from a complex system standpoint, it's all relevant. And uh um yeah, it's they're they're fun to go down uh sometimes. And sometimes uh you know you're beating your head against the wall. But uh no, I I I uh right now I'm very much with you down that evolutionary standpoint. Um right now I'm trying to watch on PBS. Uh they're older, I think they're from 2015. A little docuseries on uh uh about fish, how we we came from fish. I can't think of the name of it, right? Um uh first fish.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Neil Schuben's got a book uh called Your Inner Fish.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Your inner fish, yeah. So he did a documentary for PBS, and that's that's what uh I'm trying to go down on because I'm interested with that. I think that's very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yeah, it's cool. That's uh that's what one of the chapters is uh I've got uh a couple sites to his book. Uh he discovered TikTolic, the first fish that started coming on land, and the flippers turn into limbs, and they do a little push-up. I'm like, oh, the push-up's a pretty primal move.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, and it kind of ties in with the creeping and then some of the crawling and and stuff like that. But uh, is there a uh release date in the future for your your book that we can tell people about? Or is it so the book is serialized?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

A chapter comes out, you know, something like once a month, although the last one's been two months, and hopefully I'll get it out in the next few days. But yeah, we got about one chapter a month for about another eight or nine months until I'm done with the online version. Then I'll take the online version and turn it into a book version for Amazon maybe in about a year.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Okay. Awesome. Yeah, well, please, anyone listening, if you're interested, uh, you know, uh I'll add uh your Substack to the show notes and things like that. But uh uh Todd, I I uh I don't want to take any more time, sir. I'm so thankful uh and appreciative to have have you on. It's been a real honor to speak with you, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Thanks a lot for your for having me and for your excellent questions.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

Thanks, Todd. I appreciate it. Uh one thing.

Rabbit Holes, Inner Fish, And Primal Moves

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

And how do we recognize that? So um, you know, I was inspired by the early days of CrossFit and this idea of the infinite hopper of physical tasks. The fittest person is the person who does best across it. It's like, well, not all tasks are equally relevant though. So how do I do best to the tasks that matter the most? And then you can't actually train everything. So you have to look to train the things that have some sort of uh advantage over other things, right? So if you if you if you treat every physical task uh as sort of of equal validity, then you have no starting point. So the analogy I like to give is in gymnastics, you have six events for the men. You have the floor, the vault, the high bar, the parallel bars, the rings, and the palm of the horse. So in theory, you might think, okay, six events, you train each event equally. That's going to create the best athlete. But what you find is that every good coach trains the floor exercise much more than everything else, sometimes like 50% of the time when they're preparing in the in the in the younger generation. Why is that? Well, I think the floor exercise allows has an asymmetrical set of donor skills to the other exercises that the others don't. It biomechanically and structurally allows ways of approaching skills that are relevant across everything else. So if you want to be able to do a giant on a high bar, you have to be able to do a handstand. You have to be comfortable in a handstand. Is it easier to learn a handstand on the high bar or on the floor? It's on the floor, right? You actually have to be able to do like a back extension roll type movement. You learn that on the floor first before you learn on the high bar. And if you look at uh elite, uh if you look at all-around gymnastics champions, you could ask, what is the event they're most likely to get another medal in? And you find it's the floor. So when you want to be a generalist, you're like, okay, well, I need to prioritize the floor. And then on the flip side, the palmel horse is the least biomechanically similar to every other event. It's the most specialized. So if you're gonna cut one thing out of your training and you're training as a gymnast, you always cut the palm horse. So then you you apply that sort of across the entire realm of physical culture. Um, what are the things that are gonna give me the most benefit across everything else? So um let's look at team sports, right? Um you'll find most people in both the NFL and the NBA believe that there are more NBA players who could play in the NFL than vice versa. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Why is that? Well, I mean, partially it's well, NBA players make more money. Um, it's safer to play in the NFL, you get a longer career. Um,

Serialization Timeline And How To Follow

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

but when I look at the games, what I see is that every player, especially in the way that the NBA is played now on an NBA court, handles the ball, throws the ball, catches the ball, sets up picks, runs around picks, moves across the floor, does off ball movement, right? It's like, oh, so they're so every player is essentially playing quarterback, running back, and lineman. Right? So if you if you're trying to navigate around a pick and roll to get to the ball handler, that's fundamentally skills that have donor potential for somebody who's trying to get to a quarterback in the uh in the NFL. But because the NFL uh or in American football, because American football is more specialized across those things, it's actually harder for those skills to transfer. And it's like a small-sided game, too, because you have five on five, the opportunities per unit time to develop high-level ball skills and movement without the ball skills and movement around other people's body skills are all really high in basketball. Now, basketball has a really big problem, which is that uh it's not scaled well to children.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

So the way that you play basketball with a huge ball and a huge hoop when you're eight years old is very mechanically unrelated to how you play basketball when you're an adult. Yeah. So I don't think it's a great sport as a foundation for an eight-year-old. I prefer rugby to like develop all the moving around skills and the and the handling the ball skills. And then when they're like 12, 13, you know, they're 5'2, 5'3, 5'4, now we can move them into basketball and have them play basketball. So um, this is just how I'm generally thinking about this problem. And then so now I think the same problem with like, what do I want my kids to read? What do I want them like to watch? What do I want them to like what like you know, what math teaches you other math versus what math is highly specialized. This is how we create generally educated people that then it can be something. So for instance, like you have to wait till someone's or you have to like introduce it to them in a scaled way, but as like to understand all of Western literature, you have to understand the Bible. So whether you're a Christian or not a Christian, it's like you don't understand J.K. Rowling or J.R.R. Tolkien or Dostoevsky or any of this stuff if you haven't read the Bible, because that all of it is in reference to the Bible. Okay. So that's that's what I'm trying to construct is like that map of what are the highest threshold nodes. So then you have the nodes that have the most asymmetrical uh donor potential. And then you have these nodes that are like portals into a whole new network, right? And that's where swimming is different, right? Swimming doesn't make you better at anything that's not related to swimming. Swimming, yeah. Right? If you if you swim a lot, you will you will get zero transfer to basketball and sprinting and all of these things. But if you can swim, you can canyoneer, you can surf, you can sail, you can, you know, you can go underwater cave exploring. Like

Rafe Kelly Segment: Donor Skills And Generalism

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

like there's so much of the world that's available to you. So another model that I think about is like education is like investing, right? I want my kids to have a like a really good portfolio. I want them to be movement millionaires. And what a movement millionaire means is that you can do the things that nobody else gets to do, right? So like recently I went uh on a canyoneering trip with three friends. So we we hiked in, we dropped into this canyon, and we climbed down like 20 waterfalls, the most beautiful waterfalls that you barely see, right? Nobody else is there. Like you gotta be confident to like drop off the edge of a cliff on a rappel to go access this space. And having that physical capacity is the door that's open to you that's not open to somebody else, in the same way that you know, when you have a certain level of wealth and power, you get to walk into a room that somebody else doesn't get to walk into. So I want my kids to have as many of those rooms open as possible. And I want everybody's kids to have as many of those rooms open as possible. And so what are the what are the what are the things that have that highest donation capacity or the most important notes uh on a physical education level? Parkour, right? That not gymnastics, that's the best expression of that locomotive capacity. Uh, some level of team sport, like the way that I would do team sport is yeah, like probably rugby for kids, uh then basketball, or I'd or I'd try to convince people to like shrink the basketball down to an appropriate size and the hoop down to an appropriate size. Like, and I think playing a variety of them is good, but like that's like kind of where I where I focus. Um kind of dance, super valuable. Um, some kind of martial art. That's like that's the core four for me. And then sprinting, weightlifting, jumping, those are like you know, you we want to do those for preparation for all these athletes. Yes, sir. Um, and I think that that should be that's the gymnastics at the heart of every education. Uh you know, m Mar Margareta Stryker is one of my big influencers. She said physical education is the foundation of all education. It's how we build up the capacity of the individual. Um Plato in Plato's Republic is talking about the the beginning of the character is in uh gymnastics and music. How much we don't we don't pay attention to either of those in our education now?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

No, they're being cut out.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:09

Yeah. So I want I want my kids to be able to sing. I want my kids to be able to play an instrument. That's another, that's another whole world. I want them to be able to draw, right? Because if they can draw, they can think visually.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:26

I want them to be able to write. So every day, like my kids read and then they have to write about what they read. They have to tell me what they learned so that they're actually doing it. And we're doing that by hand right now because I think it's much more, much more educational. Um, there's whole worlds that are open to you in math. Um, they have to be able to speak, right? Rhetoric. That's a huge thing in the past. And they have to be able to read fiction and nonfiction, right? And understand literature, understand nonfiction. Um, and understand like the history of the Western canon. Uh and then of course there's a huge aspect of well, scientific literacy and then the passions of the child and meeting the passions of the child. So we're we're we're not just like, okay, learn music in general. It's like, well, what is the music that that makes you want to learn music? How do we find the pathway into understanding the classics that works for you? Right. So we don't just throw, you know, uh, for like my son is super interested in military history. So it's like, okay, let's study the battle of thermopylae. That's how we're gonna get into to Greek history. Interesting. Um, you know, if if my daughter maybe is more imaginative and more mythological, it's like, let's go to the metamorphoses of Ovid, things like that. So that's kind of how I think about education in Broadway. I don't know if that's a perfect answer to your question, but that's where I'm no language.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:53

No, it is. No, I love that. And that's uh, you know, kudos to you for homeschooling, sir, because to be honest with you, uh, again, I went to be school to be a social studies teacher. And so I am um discouraged with our education system and and schools around here. And if I could, I would homeschool my children as well. So, you know, kudos to you, sir, because I I I think that's fantastic, and I, you know, good good for your kids. I tr we try to have them go to you know traditional schools, but then we try to do the homeschooling stuff uh ourselves and and and have them chase passions and things that you're you're you're alluding to. Um no, that's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:28

Thank you. Yeah, I think everyone has to recognize that that the ultimate responsibility for the education of the child is always the parents. And we can't we cannot just sort of like hand it over to the school systems, um, and they don't educate the child in everything that you actually want the child to know. Yes, sir. So so you're homeschooling whether you're homeschooling.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:52

Yeah, a hundred percent. Um yeah, and too many too many times I hear, you know, I work with a lot of adults as well. They just they just blame the teachers and and don't take ownership on on their themselves. And it's disheartening. And then, you know, we just had, you know, now that we're back in school here, you know, summertime and kids don't do any kind of schooling during the summer, they take those months off. And it's just like I asked them, do they like to read? Uh no. Well, because they associate reading with things in school, like, well, okay, what are things you're passionate about? What are things you like? You know, I like this, I like that. Well, why don't you read about that then? You know, um, but um no, Rafe, I I I I love it and um thank you so much, sir. I don't want to take any more of your time. Um, I know your dog's probably hopefully not uh beating at the door and trying to eat your GoPro stuff, but uh um no, sir, it it's it was a true honor to have you on. Um I I I've been listening to you for years and and this is awesome get to speak to you and thank you so much. Um, you know, where can people, my my listeners, learn more about you about uh Rafe Kelly and Evolve Move Play and your work, sir?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:54

Yeah, evolvement play.com is the the website. Uh we're fairly active on Instagram, um a little bit on Facebook, uh, and then uh I've been uh writing on my Substack, both my personal Substack, Rafe Kelly, and my uh the Evolvement Play Substack. Um so we have a set of online courses, which you mentioned. I believe you've uh you've taken on some of our online courses. We have an online membership. So that's available through the website. Um and if you have any issues or or questions, you can hit up info at evolvemove play.com and we'll go back to you and and do that. And I have uh I'm I'm personally on sabbatical right now and focused on writing a book. Uh so I won't be teaching any retreats or workshops in the next year.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

I was gonna ask you because with all of your anthropology and all your history and

Building Movement Millionaires And Core Four

SPEAKER_00 1:20:45

physiology, uh psychology, just everything, like will you ever will you ever do that? No, that's awesome to hear.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:51

That's the goal. That's the goal. But I have uh uh students and and teachers who worked with me for a long time. I did a cohort of uh of eight um apprentices last year who worked with me for a year who are now out and uh certified coaches. Um so those guys are uh are around. Uh we'll we'll get some more info up about them. But there'll be involvement play workshops happening in Europe and the United States through my students uh next year. So people can find all that info on the website as it comes out.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:20

Um you mentioned Todd Hardgrove, and I actually messaged him not too long ago to see if I can get him on a podcast. He said in uh in a couple weeks in October, because he's putting out on his Substack right chapters to this new book he's writing. And I love it because again, it takes you know, neurology, it takes uh evolution and anthropology, and he's kind of putting it together and it just makes me also think of your work. Like I think you two should if you haven't already, I that would be awesome to to combine your your guys' info.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:46

Yeah, he's been on my podcast, I think, twice. Um but I taught an Todd Todd's daughter came to the Parkourgium that I owned in uh I didn't, but I was a co-founder of. I was never an owner of, but I was a co-founder of in Seattle from 2009 to 2013. So we met through that, and then from like 2014 to uh 2020, when I moved out of Seattle, we would uh meet for drinks once a month and and chat about this stuff. So uh it was a really good time. Uh missed that guy. But yeah. Hi, Todd. If you're seeing this.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:19

Yeah, man. No, that would be cool. Uh his I'm very excited for his book. I've been reading his chapters as he's been putting them out. Uh, that's awesome. You know, is there a timeline on when your book?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:29

No, no, not at all. I'm literally just just beginning the process of exploring how I'm gonna put that together. It's just that's the intention is to put my energy towards that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:37

Awesome. Okay. Well, hey, hopefully uh sooner rather than later. Good luck with that process. Uh Rafe, thank you again for for your time in. Thank you, Mr. Jeff. Have a good day.