Paul Gagne - How Posture & Breathing Effect Performance

If you’ve ever watched an athlete dominate in games while looking average in the weight room, Paul Gagné has an explanation that cuts deeper than “talent.” We’re talking about posturology: how the brain uses vision, the vestibular system, and foot pressure to place your centre of mass before you ever push into the ground. When that system is organised, speed and skill feel effortless. When it’s not, you can train hard and still leak power, recover poorly, and get hurt at the worst moment.

We dig into eye convergence, VOR drills, and why a simple figure eight pattern can shift posture fast enough to change a training session. Paul breaks down anterior scapular plane and how it shows up in hockey as weaker first steps, skating on the toe of the blade, and a head down style that kills awareness. He shares how he uses force plates, lasers, and quick sensory inputs to open a “window” where athletes learn and lift in a better position.

Then we go practical and a little wild: white pucks and even golf balls on the ice to train soft hands and peripheral vision, plus a PGA Tour story where a major champion uses eye exercises under pressure. We also connect posture to breathing mechanics, diaphragm function, hypoxia and CO2 tolerance training, and how better breath control can restore calm focus between shifts.

If you care about sports performance, hockey training, injury prevention, or the science of posture and breathing, you’ll leave with tools you can test today. Subscribe, share this with a coach or teammate, and leave a review with the one drill you want to try first.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, Jeff here with another episode of Down the Rabbit Hole. And we're back, guys, and we got Paul Gagni. Paul is a posturologist, a strength coach. He is a Split Army knife of just, he is a jack of all trades, guys. He is a world-renowned strength nucleusing coach from uh out of uh Montreal, Canada. He is trained Olympic athletes, uh, NHL athletes, PGA athletes. Uh he's been in the strength noosing game for over 40 years. He is a uh uh a go-to uh resource for just anything you want to learn. Um Paul is a a wealth of knowledge, and I wanted to get him on the show uh for several reasons, but one being that he is uh one of the first posturologists uh in North America. Um not only that, he's one of the first posturics to connect the dots between posturology and sports performance, and has done amazing work with uh researching and and uh doing his own kind of laboratory, mad science laboratory of connecting dots between how posture affects performance on the ice, performance on uh the golf course, performance on the field, um, how uh with injury prevention, with performance, with all types of things. Paul uh is also the co-founder of the Desmotech, which is a flywheel company that uh he'll he'll discuss and get into. We get into breathing training. He's an expert in uh breath training, so I wanted to learn more about how he implements and trains that and how important posture is for breathing and how important breathing is for athletes. Um this is a great episode, guys. I hope you enjoyed as much as I do. Please give it a like, share, and a subscribe. Um, yeah, enjoy. Paul, I am extremely uh grateful to have you on, sir. We've uh, you know, kind of three degrees of separation. I've known you for a very long time through many mutual friends, Scott Prohaska, Matt Beley, who's a uh two-time member of my my podcast. And uh I just had to get you on, sir. Um you are, if not the only person I know, uh at least definitely the first, that is doing some things, sir, that I am deeply passionate about. So I wanted to learn firsthand from you of connecting dots between posturology, which I've had Matt on to talk about, and I actually had Dr. Brico on to talk on, and then uh with you in sports performance. So uh thank you for taking the time.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

My pleasure. My pleasure, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

So for maybe anyone that's listening, the the few listening that uh do not know who you are. Can you give me a quick uh quick background check on just kind of you know what's going on and why what you know uh who you are and how you got here?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Well, I

Paul’s Background And Mentors

SPEAKER_01 2:49

started like 40, it's my 44th year in 1982. Wow. I mean, I was I was 21 years old and always been passionate about conditioning. I was a wrestler also, uh like pre-high level, played hockey like any Quebec or we're born with skates in our the saying is that the doctor has to watch his hands when we get born, because not to cut his fingers. I mean, I'm from the South Shore Lachine, it's like southwest of Montreal, kind of a kind of Pittsburgh tile. We had like Dominion Bridge, kind of a very tough neighborhood mix of being from Irish descendancy from my grandma near Belfast, and mixed with my two grandfathers or pure Algonquin Native American and the French side. And the neighborhood was kind of a mixed match and pretty pretty rough. And we learned very quickly to do combat sport to defend ourselves, but also uh it got us into very good conditioning, and it helped us also in hockey and playing lacrosse a lot also uh a lot when we were younger, and that brought me very curious about I was not a big, I was never a good athlete, I was never a good like in sports, but because I was playing in the elite, I understood very at a very young age that my condition allowed me to play at very high level in hockey and in wrestling and even baseball. I played tennis intercollegiate, uh I played cross-country skiing, I won a couple of big competitions, but because of always, always conditioning and also being in combat sport, I was five years old when I started to do judo. Um, you you get into that mode that your body doesn't hurt, takes a lot to hurt it, and you have a lot of resilience. And that got me interested in okay, what makes it? How could we apply science to it? And I remember when I was 12 years old, I was the first one on my wrestling team. We had a gym at these little barbell York with these uh you're too young for that, but back then the dumb the bar the dumbbells and the plates were full of sand, it was a plastic filled with sand, and that's what we had. And these bench fries that was kind of moving around, and uh the York barbell, and that everybody was in my downstairs or outdoor, and I was already training him at 12. I was reading everything like back then was mainly uh Iron magazine and muscle and fitness and being having uh uh Montreal was a big mecca for bodybuilding, too, because Jimmy Caruso was here, and the Weeder brothers, Ben and Joe, are from Montreal and they started the IFBB, and it became pretty much when we were like 18, 19, everybody was jacked, and we all like not always on a lot of my buddies, not always on vitamins, but back then it was like very mainstream. But the good thing is that because I was uh at a very high level in sports, we were not allowed to take it. And I know myself, I had taken it, I would have gained a lot of weight, and I would have kept was like, I get can I get bigger and bigger? But the our rules and regulation kept me away from these types of vitamins, and I I thank it because now being almost 65, uh at least my body doesn't hurt as much as my buddies that took this stuff for for a while.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Now, did you go to school to be a strength coach?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Like how did you Yeah, I went, yeah, but I mean I have a background also. Um uh Ottawa Sports Science Center opened a program because I I went I was actually in finance and then because but I always been in fitness and then took a couple of courses there at the Ottawa Sports Science Center and uh with Dr. Uh there's many, many of the top guys from Ed McNeely and stuff, and I got interested into that that kind of aspect. And then later on, I mean I studied a lot of I traveled because uh being an athlete, I've met a lot of people all all over the world. And Charles Polyquin was one of my first mentors, we're the same age. And Charles was I remember used to do programs for us in wrestling. I have a program for him, I think, in 1978, and uh he was very crafty, and he was one of the first ones uh after that to to really think about okay, maybe we should bring a bit more strength and muscle hypertrophy into the training to support. And it was the very first time like they really got that. There was the two groups back then, the power lifters, Olympic weightlifter, or all just the calisthenics. And Charles was one of the first ones to blend pretty much everything on that. And we I started to give seminars with him and we had fun, and then met Paul Czech later on. He was one of the first guys to introduce Paul, who was pretty crafty into bringing a lot of physiotherapy stuff into for strength coach. And later on in 1994, I met Bernard Bricot. That was a really game changer. Uh, when we start to, we understood that the brain had a lot, but we didn't know exactly what was going on. And then Evetsi and I were kind of the first um, like I don't like the word strength coach in French. I like the the word physical prep, preparatory physique. And now they're changing that now a lot in in English and in the US, physical prep performance, because we prepare anything. You're a marathon runner, it's not strength. I'll I'll I'll I'll prepare your body. And then it changes the game. And then a year later, I met uh Dr. Guy Voyer, who invented the LDOA and a game. I became uh one of his colleagues, and we start to build the program of Soma training, mixing with LDOA and mixing with the brain stuff, and that's that's what launched. I would say mid-90s in the 90s, that really like 30 years ago, that was really a big game changer for me. That okay, maybe you don't lift and you don't need to lift that much if you lift smarter, if your posture is better, and how could we soup up the brain? We know it. If you don't have a brain, you don't have a body, and then how could we that's that's where you the analysis of the uh the analogy of like sometimes you have athletes in the gym, they're very spectacular, you don't really see them on the ice or on on the soccer field, and others in the gym they suck, but they're making millions of dollars again. The blend, but what the talented athlete liked about what we did, the one that they were very reluctant of getting too big and on the right side, because if you gain too much muscle that you can't use, it's like fat, and that's what we understand now. And then these guys took like a lot of interest into posturology because they understood that wow, it even with the big talent I have, it brings me to the second part. And the big guys, they were more reluctant, but they when they got it, they got way better and they got stronger. Ah, now I got their attention by doing a couple of uh brain act, you get them. See, it's a good coach is like a chameleon. It's not my way. I know what to do. I got a toolbox, but I will have to, if you're more a skilled player, I have to talk to you like a skill. I will not bring you to that like like that kind of like muscle head kind. If you're a muscle head athlete, it happens, then I have to bring you slowly to that brain side to be more skilled. And it takes time, but you need to like it's called the Kaizen system, like the Japanese, step by step. And this is where it's very hard to to to teach that in a seminar. Uh Charlie uh Balikin used to call it the Pifomate, like it's it's something that you cannot you you smell it, you feel it, but it's hard to articulate it, you need to experience for it, and that's the fun part, it takes time.

Discovering Posturology And Eldoa

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Well, I would love to uh again, as we're fellow posturologists, I would love to kind of get into like how did you meet Dr. Brico? And again, if you came from a background of like lift and weights and athletics, like sometimes, and maybe your experience have seen this, uh uh it's it's it's a little different, uh, the posturology. You know, we think posture, we think mechanical, we think beyond uh upper lower cross syndrome, but that's not at all what posturology is. So, like, how did you come about to that? And uh uh uh and then I would love to get into your connecting to the dots with athletic performance and what you do with like hockey and other all your pro athletes that you work with.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

But uh one of my colleagues, uh Michel Joubar, is a one of the top podiatrists in the world. Like he he has a bachelor's degree in exercise science, but also a podiatrist, and he had met Brico, I think, in 92. Uh Sylvain Guillon was one of the first ones, the guy who owns uh I mean biotonics, now it's all AI, it's very interesting. Sylvain had biotonics before that, way before, and we started to work with him a bit. And uh he told me, he says, Listen, you should he first of all he showed me the book of Brico, that's in '94, '95, before I met him, and I was interested. That was the first one, uh Manuel. But uh, it was like a hardcover green only in French. And for me, it was like Chinese. And you know, back then already we had a lot of athletes in the admit we were kind of full of ourselves. We didn't really think of, we think, ah, we're good, we're good. We're with Charlie, Polycane, and we're doing all the athletes, and we're always like way bigger than that, and we all had the same look, big arms, and like we were like kind of full of ourselves. But then I don't know, I'm very curious. And I always tell my coaches the secret of being better is to be curious and putting aside. And I remember I sat down in the class with Eve T, uh, my my partner that that moved. Uh, and then we we sat down the first half hour. We look at each other and says, uh, we'll leave. Because it looked a bit like at the beginning, like an infomercial to sell insults back then. And and Bernard, to his defense, didn't really have guys like us. He's a doctor, he's an orthopedic surgeon. He used to talk to more university kind osteopaths, people that they're not into. Even I were like, okay, how do I get what does it give my athlete to do that? And then we stayed for lunch, then at lunch we had lunch with him, and then we launched the and before we know, like a month after, even I and Michel Joubert were in charge of uh the posturiology program. And then uh in 2000, I met Matt. He was a young guy, came to our first course that we brought Brico in for the trainers. Uh, and then uh that's how it started with uh McAndre Wilson, another one of my clients, my colleague. And that's how Matt started, and many like Marc-Andre, and then for a while we had it, but it didn't really launch. Even Charlie saw it. I showed him the stuff, but he he felt it, but he didn't understand it. And again, when you're very you have very good results, you're kind of reluctant. It's it's not good, but that's how we humans are. We tend to we're routine, we're human beings like routines, and then it's hard to get out of our comfort zone because why fix what ain't broken? But but now we know it was broken, but we didn't know it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, but not always. And then after that, working with Bernard, started to says, Bernard, I'm gonna try to get more trainers because this is very valuable. And then uh Michel Joubert and I and Eve, we used to go to France to give conference of blending what we did, and then a year and a half later, when I met Guy Voyier, I mean, with Eldoa was valid, Eldois. I don't know if you're familiar with that, yeah. The Eldo Wall were Guy Voyers from Marseille, Bernard Bricot is from Marseille, and then I used to spend a lot of time there. And the the CUS, this is where everything is validated as posturology, and Guivoier had a theory that is the LDO will modify posture. And he did his thesis that when he wrote his thesis, he brought it to the CUS with all the stabilomic platform, they're like horseplate but very high sensitive, that measures we call that the spaghetti, uh, with Dr. Weknan. He was the inventor of these plates and at the CUS. And he proved that Ldo R by itself will change your standard of mass, a bit like when you do eye exercise. And we were the first one, it's a and I, to blend both approach. That was like a because technically, in the literature, it took about 10 to 12 months to when you do eye exercise, you wear the insoles, usually to reprogram the postural system. But mixed with what we did, I mean, within two, three months, you were done. You know, as that was because for my athletes, it's huge. Because a lot of time hockey, we have what 12 on a good year, we've got 12 weeks to to prepare them for the next season. I had figure skaters, tennis players is worse, golfers is worse because they don't really have time up. And I didn't have that much time to spend on them to okay, wait, wait, wait. We need that, but we didn't know back then. Now, in retrospect, blending everything was really interesting, and that's what made it the program that we're offering. And we're still finding new stuff. Every time I meet with Matt, we taught a couple weeks ago. I mean, we both had maybe I don't know, 20 pages of note. Call me out, see what the I'm spending, I'm going in May with him in Belgium. We're gonna teach uh we have each a class for four days. We're staying in the same place. It's gonna be more crazy in our house than uh while we teach, but that's the fun part.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

That's awesome. Um so again, you were one of the first, though, that started that connecting dots between posture and athletics. And I would love to kind of kind of get into that because uh um, again, some people just I don't know what it is, at least at least here in my neck of the woods, uh, I'll I'll exclude to that, but I I have to uh imagine you've seen the same things too. But like athletes, like, yeah, if it's not broke, uh, you know, why why why try to fix it? Like, but what does like so for instance, uh, why should athletes care about uh uh full convergence of the eyes? What does that mean? Uh and we can keep it if you want to talk specifically for uh a sport like hockey, or I know you work with uh PGA athletes as well, but like why should they care about that?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Well,

Why Vision Drives Balance

SPEAKER_01 17:09

even irregular people, like the one of the one of the big causes of dyslexia in kids is eye poconvergence. Like uh Dr. Da Silva did his thesis. He's uh he's a posturologist, but he's also an ophthalmologist from uh Lisbon. Uh Lisbon or Porto, but he's from Portugal, and he he did it, and uh he proved it that this most dyslexic kids they have eye perconvergence, or when we do many different types of tests, there is a problem, uh ocular motor mainly of the one of the six or little usually it's a lateral recti that gets spastic. If you took medication, if you had a hard delivery that could spasm, because it's the only it's the only muscle that's not connected to the same cranial nerves, and it gets very sensitive to either medication, stress, hit to the head, and that's where when you do a lot of people will not converge well, they'll will have a spasm on that muscle. But if you don't have proper convergence, you cannot decide, you cannot detect movement. As simple as that. Like number one cause of falling, falling for an older person, uh, it's lack of convergence. Clumsy people, they say, Oh, my kid is clumsy, especially at the end of the day. It means that I mean, check his eyes. I'm pretty sure he doesn't converge, and it's getting worse because of the seated position, if there's a connection directly with the skins of the foot, uh, too much screen. If you have too much artificial screen or blue light, will make the muscle wakes weaker and not enough sunlight, not enough hunting, fishing, and not enough survival mechanism. See the human body, if you don't stimulate it with either cold tubs, cold shower, hot, like uh I have my sauna in my backyard, I real, I have a real finished sauna. Uh, I have my cold tub. I have I I don't know the time next last time I took a hot shower. I take always like I have my cold shower outside in the winter. I shower indoor, I got my my tubs in. But you want to bring for your mitochondria, you need to bring discomfort. That's the only reason why we survive for these, I don't know, almost sapiens is dated almost 800,000 years ago. And that's the reason why we're here is resiliency, posture will a good a good athlete, not only with good posture, will needs to get balance in the receptors. And this is where if the skin of the foot is not well activated because you wear shoes all the time, you're always sitting down, you work on cement, then your the first phase will be shut down. But also, if you're not stimulating your eyes with proper movement, you cannot handle. One example, one of the most uh one of the most imbalanced of the posture that could uh have a very negative impact on performance is uh what we call anterior scapular plane, meaning I footage take a plum line behind you, your scapula is in front of your butt, and your head is forward. It's not only a head forward posture, it's the whole body. 95% of people are like that. If you take a plum line, measure, wait, if you do that, you're gonna first thing you're gonna see, you're gonna grip with your toes. The aponeurosis of the foot. That big, big plant or fascia is gonna be tight. Your Achilles tendon will be shorter, your your calves will be shorter, hamstring will be shorter, your lumbar spine will be shorter, you'll be in hyper, you'll have almost like an hyperextension. And um anterior scapular plane is usually with a what we call a disharmonic foot. One foot's gonna be more in valgus and varus on one leg. And usually on right-handed people, that's what you see valgus on the left foot, more flattening on one leg of the left, and more varus up uh immediately on the right. And that's the number one cause of ankle sprain, non-impact on right-handed people, is on the right side. And because when you put them, I have a force plate right behind me from Desmotech. We met we always work with that, and it measures well uh the balance on this, and you could see. I don't like people to believe me. I should listen, listen, look, check the video, check the imprint with the software, and you'll see it. And that's really interesting. That as soon, even if there's no imbalance, even if you converge okay in the test, then I give you a bit of figure eight or some uh VOR movement mixing. Usually there's an immediate uh movement backward, your more your center of mass gets more balanced. And for an athlete, being against gravity without effort is huge because if you train. Two hours a day in the next 14 hours, you're standing going like this. You're like in a meanie good morning or deadlift. Imagine what happens to your muscle at rest. You don't rest, you're always in acidosis, and you're always like under tension, and your brain, too, your cortisol is going to get high, and there's a cascade of a lot, and your recovery is not good. That's why a balanced posture starts from the brain. Then what is the quickest connection to the brain? The eyes. And then you could have scars. You know what the the buttons when someone starts to learn, just learn, first of all, analyze the eye movement, just do a couple of VOR, and you'll be you'll be in uh in good position. Then if you activate the foot, it's going to be a lot easier after, but you don't need to to to to to change too much at the beginning. And it's very important. And also, one thing that is very important to understand a lot of the changes you'll do are not permanent, especially if with athletes, you'll have to reprogram all the time as a warm-up, as exercise. And sometimes it will open a window. If I train you, we're doing lower body today. You come in my place, okay. Let's do a little warm-up on the plate, just as a warm-up, but also it gives me the uh data. Oh, something some of your receptor, maybe you didn't sleep well, something happened. Then I'll give you a couple of eye exercise, a couple of manipulation on the foot, stimulation. Now, oh, suddenly for the next hour that we're going to train together, you're in a better posture. Then now I have now I'm going to train you on to a good, we're going to ingram better the movements, and that's the key. Again, it's not magic, it's magic for certain people immediately. But in some athletes, it's we still don't understand, yet it lasts longer. We know by fact that if you did a lot of martial art, you did a lot, like here near my house, we have the Sir Saleya school. My son went there, they tried to show you how to juggle, walk online, doing backflips. We know that if as a very young age you build a very high multitask cerebellum, all the different angles from the ponds, from the midbrain, uh, from the verme, the and uh, and that's where you're gonna have a lot of a lot more input and output. You're gonna have a better brain, basically, for athleticism, like a cat. And we know that you when we do a change on these athletes or young, even young, young uh gymnasts that I have, like they're seven, eight years old, the the change seems to last longer. I had people in their 80s and I asked them the background, or I was on Broadway, or I used to be a ballerina, uh, I played high-level sports, and they're in their 80s, they seem to, even at that age, to change, they still have all almost a bit more neuroplasticity than people that they were sitting at the desk all their life and they didn't move. And but again, there I would lie to tell you, okay, you'll do that, you'll be good for half an hour. We cannot. It's very individual. Yourself, if I train you over a period of a month, will you have you'll have that. It's all like up and down, up and down in movements. But the goal is to have tools to immediately before the workout and also after the workout how to recover and before how to activate. That's interesting. And this is where the breeding stuff comes in very, very quickly. Because when you work on hypoxia, when you combine uh VOR with hypoxia, breath hole, especially empty lung breath hole, then you create a lot more, it's called BDA, BDNF activation, brain-derived neurotropic factors. That's very, very important for when we take. I don't know if you understand uh a myelin sheet. When let's say you play violin, the more you practice, then on the axon you get a sheet. It's lipid fat and protein, and then when you tape it well, you practice well. Doesn't mean practice makes better, good practice makes better, and you practice well slowly, and then you tape it in a good way, like a hockey stick. Some guys they're really good at it, they make it nice, and the the actually the stick lasts longer than if you go all over the place. It's the same thing when you ingram around the axon and you tape it well. Same thing when you train. Like I use a lot of the flywheel stuff, and what happened is that the flywheel on the axon under the mile and sheet, you got these notch. It's called the Ranvier notch. Like it's like when you train, you create these notch. The deeper and the shorter they are, the more powerful and quick you'll be. If you do power lifting, you'll have these big notch, but very separated. Yes, your power output is big, your force is big, but your power is slow because you're lifting always very heavy. Bodybuilders, they have a lot of these little notch, but not deep because it's basically kind of lightweight for what they need compared on the axon. They're very good for volume, they got a good pump, but when you ask them to sprint, they pull a hamstring, they have a hard time to explode. Like an Olympic weightlifter is perfect, the perfect blend. Although they're deep notch, they're a lot more precise than a power lifter. That's why Olympic weightlifting, when you can, is one of the best. Like all it's not even a sport, it's a great conditioning tool. Uh, Kim Goss, my colleague, was a genius on that to come with all different drills, adapting adapting like Olympic weightlifting to certain sports. Really, really. He wrote mainly all the articles for Charles Polyquin. Same thing. We have a book together. Uh, get bigger, not get stronger, not bigger, mainly for female athletes. And Olympic weightlifting is a big part. And flywheel training is the same. Very interesting. It increases, like I call that neural coding, but also big, big, big sequencing of feedback. RFD gets faster. For me, RFD on my plate is important. How quick you get to it, it's more important, and how much you're able to repeat your rate of force development. That's one thing for hockey or any sports that you need movement, not one shot, not a shot putter. And this is where your posture will play a big role. If you're in good position, your center of mass is well positioned, a bit behind gravity, then you're able to apply force without damaging your fascia, your joints, and also your brain's going to ingram in a proper posture. There's more likely when you're going to play hockey, you'll have a better posture on the ice. You won't have your head between your legs. Same thing for golfers, for tennis players, for many of my athletes. They all have the that's why we work with lasers. We use lasers that we'll put it. We have these things that you put around the head to measure, to make sure that there's a feedback. We'll put it around the waist for feedback, around the knees. For the athlete to be aware, because a lot of people, because of their our habit of reading and screens, we tend to be worse and worse like that. And it's pretty bad in sports for that.

Anterior Scapular Plane In Athletes

SPEAKER_00 29:37

There's a lot to unpack there, sir. Uh, I want to get back to a little bit to the flywheel, but uh, but before that, uh again, you talked about anterior scapular plane. Now I have only been a posturologist for five years, but I can say within the last two, I have seen more and more and more people with anterior scapular planes, like like almost, yeah, it's it's almost 90% of the people that that I do the postural assessment on is anterior scapular plane. So I want to talk about as you mentioned, it it lengthens everything on the backside. We're constantly having to fight gravity now. What have you seen as far as your data with the force plates, your your your analysis of sports movements? You know, we can keep it to hockey, but like how does having an anterior scapula plane affect, let's just say in hockey, right? Acceleration is important. So, you know, uh acceleration sprints and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

In hockey, you you know it. What is what parents ask us all the time? There's one question how could he get his first five steps better?

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

All right, but that that's over. But if you have an anterior scapular plane, what's gonna happen is that when you're in that position of skating, already the skates they move like they're not they're not flat. And what happened is that because you have an anterior scapular plane like this, obviously, when you skate, you'll need to push your hips back more, then your head's gonna be more because you want to have the heels. But when as soon as you accelerate your center of mass going to move more forward, then you'll be running. You won't use your blade, you'll use the tip of your toes almost to skate, and that's not good. Then you don't apply force, creates a lot of imbalance. First of all, you it's very hard to make a play with the head between your legs, and you cannot accelerate because you're not using the whole blade. That's one thing, like Hussein Bolt is very tall. He has like, take you words, like 14, 15. He looks slow from the starting block because he's like 6'4, 6'5, but as soon after 10, 12 yards, now he had that his RFD was so strong off as his ground reactive force was so strong that he was ahead by 30, 35 yards. He was ahead, and there's no, and he was still accelerating while the other guys started to decelerate around 80 because they had they bust their nuts at the beginning because they had so much, but they didn't have they were they were running on the tip of your toes to start. Hussein was grabbing the floor under him, and you saw, and then his stride was a lot more soft, and that's where in hockey is this that's why to accelerate more, you need a better posture. If you're straighter, you got, but for this, you need to train properly your ankles, big, big time. First,

Flywheel Training And Tendon Readiness

SPEAKER_01 32:23

you need to bring back your center of mass. Posturology is number one. Then you have to work a lot, flexoralysis, longest, brevest, and also extensor. Big toe is the magic, a lot of dorsiflexion, because if you want movement of the big toe to accelerate, you need that, and also a lot of hamstring balance, and also, especially in external range, like not too much shortening the muscle, but working a lot in external range, and the flywheel that's what it does because it goes at very high rate of pulse, especially the Desmotec one we have, they're with ropes instead of strap, there's less friction, and because flywheel, it's not really uh it's the turnover in between concentric and eccentric. When you look at the wheel, when you pull on the rope, the shaft turns, there's a disc. But when you get at the end, it turns to the other side. This is the key point in ISO inertial in flywheel training. The the device, like Desmotec, they're Italian, they made like a Ferrari with that. There's cords and small ropes for the pulleys, and then it's so quick that the transition, if you're not ready, it's going to pull you. That's why a lot of athletes that they were used to either the cone one or the strap one from Sweden, they got used to it. But if I'm able to eat a sandwich and do it, it's not good for me. That's a problem. It's great for fitness, but it's great for strength. But for that transition of eccentric to concentric, and vice versa, that's the key. If you go back to my Ranvier notch, this is where injury happens. You don't you don't sprain your ankle. Oh, it's it's that quickness in hockey. You switch direction, soccer, tennis, you don't, oh wait, oh, I pull my no. It's like a sprinter doesn't pull his hamstring while he walks. It's in that trend hockey. A football player doesn't tear his ACL rarely going forward. They plant his foot, change direction. But that's that moment, and this is where if you don't train your fascia, your ligament, your tendon, because ligament and tendon is fascia, you don't train them to get excited to really get that's what we did a research with one of my colleagues in 2019, Dr. Matsubali and his wife Alison Simeone. She has a PhD in neuroscience, and Dr. Matsubori is a very well-known sports radiologist in Montreal, and we had three types of uh like different types of scanners, also ultrasound to measure the activity of the tendon. And we did a belt squat versus uh like the squat with the our flywheel on the squat box. And within one set on the flywheel, you start to see a bit of orange on the patella tendon and the Achilles. On after four sets on the belt squat, we barely see any change of color. It got a bit yellow at the end of four sets of ten with the the Desmotec system. The tendons were very, very, very red. And that means the more you have signals of the tendon, the more you're going to protect your joint and the more elastic strength you'll have. How many times have you seen hockey players or other athletes in the gym kind of skinny, scrawny beans lifting tons of weight or jumping like 40-inch jump? Why? Tendon strength. They have a lot of they have, first of all, good range of motion, and that they have that explosiveness. Other guys with big, big legs and very short tendon and not not a lot of tendon activity, they look strong, but they can't move, they move at a very slow speed, and they're they're impressive in the in the locker room, they're all jacked up, but on the ice they don't move. And this is where that you need for me, flywheel save me a lot of aggravation. We've been using it since 2012, and I have very tall. Some of the hockey players, like 6'5, 6'6, 6'7. I had one six eight. Very hard to do squats with them. When they got 100 kilo, that's pretty much max on the front squat. They're so tall, and it's not enough to create adaptation in the legs for hockey. You need it way higher. With with the Desmo, I got guys that go up to 400 kilograms per rep. This is like almost like a thousand pounds per rep. This is freaky. Like 10 reps in a row of that. Imagine what it does. But the adaptation, it's because of the eccentric, it's so quick that your postural system also adapts. And this is what I like. It's like more a neural adaptation than just a neuromuscular. It's more like uh I call that tendon fascial neuro neurofascial adaptation. And for me, it saves me a lot of aggravation. And the athletes they don't get as sore as that, and also it tends to modify for someone that never did squat on the like on a platform like this. I do a test. Let's do an overhead squat test, measure your your movement. I did I have a camera, put them on the force plate, how much pressure they're putting forward on one leg. If the pelvis turns, a lot of time at when you pass 90, there's a shift because there's 22 axes of the pelvis. A lot of time you'll shift on one side, usually without touching them on the table, one or two sets on the desmo fix up to I've seen 100% fix, but in an average 50% and up. That's huge. For me, if you're my new athlete, you don't know me, and then I you come in my garage in Montreal, then I got your attention. Now we're you're gonna listen more for the longer run. See, a good coach has to use a bit of speed dating. When you meet a very high-end athlete, how could I impress, not impress him, how can I help him with one of his issues within the next 15 minutes? If I'm able to do that, I get his attention. Now we're in for the longer term. We know it takes time. But when you have a good meal, like if you want to put you make a stew, but the first part you put your meat in the pan of it just to carelyze it for five minutes, then you put it in the pan. But you keep it in the oven for three, four hours to be tender. But that first, that first that's like sizzling, it's crucial for the whole juice and taste. That's what I call when we work with a new, especially high-end athlete that comes to you as uh he doesn't really know what you do. You you need to be get very, very direct to one of his main issues, and that's where you're gonna get the attention.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Yes,

Skill Training With White Pucks

SPEAKER_00 39:08

sir. Um I've heard you talk with Maddie uh on a video podcast thing that he did that I thought was super interesting. I'd love to learn more about that. When you train on ice with your hockey players, uh sometimes you'll use white pucks.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Can you talk about that? Like I think that's super cool, super interesting.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

But but again, like uh but see, but the the ice is white. What the one of the number one when you film the top players like uh McDavid, Crosby, or McKinnon, or even McCar or even Lane Hudson, and even Max Patri that had the honor to train for many years. Uh when you look, a good athlete will barely look down. Rarely. Why? The puck is black, the ice is white. But since a couple years, like here in Canada, but especially in Quebec, the last 20 years, there's no contact until like 12, 13 years old. Kids they get very bad habits in in correlation also with their phones, but they they always want to see the twigle and dangle. They think like they're a basketball player playing like outdoor, but you can't do that because in hockey you're gonna get killed. But you get very bad habits. What happened with the white puck? It helps you, first of all, it teaches you to stay up, keeps you proprioception, and also if it it feels you because it doesn't mean that you need to look at the puck, you should feel it, and that's where sensitivity of the hands to it's very important because in a game, you don't have time to look at the puck. You need to look where am I gonna shoot. Like momentarily, if you look at if you're able to see the puck in peripheral vision or different angles, if I'm looking here, I should see the puck there. The white puck forces you to get that to a point, like after a while, we even use golf balls on the ice. That's even more difficult because it's very light. You need to have soft hands, and we'll combine golf balls and the puck to bring it back. And the puck feels heavy, and it's very interesting. My pucks are the same as the the weight, but the athlete feels like the white puck is lighter. Oh, they all Paul, Paul, it's not the real puck. Yeah, yeah. Here's the balance, here's the scale, and it's the same. It's because the white makes it look lighter all the time. It's a but I tell you, it's not fun for a lot of these guys. When you work in hypoxia, your vision gets almost blurry. You see, they make a lot of mistakes. We even make them do infinity movement, like they have to control the white puck while they skate, always looking at one wall. They go around cones in figure eight, but they have to look to the right now. Okay, only look to the left, come back in and out, backward, and with the white, with the black. The goal is that when they don't have any perturbation or restriction, when they're freestyle with the black puck, you should see how fast they go and how better within some guys and girls within an hour. I see the difference. Really interesting, especially the skilled players. You'll see that whoop immediately. Goalies are the same. I trained Marc-Andri Fleurini since he was 16, and he hated it when we did small drills with him uh with the white puck because his rate of success was not that good. But after a while, he even told me the black puck seems looked like way bigger than it was. Then his brain's gonna perceive there's less there's more time, his movements gonna be more precise. I mean, any sport you play, Jeff, like what happened is that when you're gonna the best performance you had, you felt like either the opponent or the whole game was slower than it is.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

That but that's perception, yeah. And it goes with the brain wave. See, we when you're in the zone, you're in between eight and 13 Hertz of oscillation, then that's why on the bench, I always tell them after a shift on the ice, you're gonna hit high beta. Your heart rate is up, you got hit a bit, your uh your amygdala is kind of activating, you're kind of pissed. Then if you do, you're sitting on the bench, don't sit, keep the tension a bit on your legs, look up, don't fall down, pick a spot on the ice, gaze, like look at the whole ambience, don't think about anything and just reset your breath. Because a lot of time in shifts, it's about every two minutes you'll go back on the ice. If you have a regular shift, you have plenty of time to reset your brain. And you're and I've seen it. Some of my hockey players, they told me, Paul, it's very interesting. But keep the tension on your feet, don't sit like don't clout and don't talk to your buddy and don't check the girl in the stance, or or don't go like this because the coach just told you, hey, you're moron, you didn't play good. Forget about it. That's his own opinion. Do better. Don't even turn around, just yes, coach. And then you're you have to be like that's why in the army they teach you very good posture. That's why they're very rigid. Look at all the films when you see parades, all these guys and girls, they have to be why is that? Because they understood that to try to shoot and try to fight in a bad posture, you're gonna get killed. That's but it's the same in hockey, any sports, tennis, golf. You if you have a good control over your tonic postural system, meaning the brain and your receptors, you got three-quarters of the battle done. That's why you're gonna I go back again. My statement early on that you'll have some athletes that they're very good on the ice or on the tennis court, and in the gym, they're okay. But when you analyze them on a force plate, they're in the five percent of uh perfect posture. You we have data on that, and this is where that's the key. The biggest issue we have, I would say, the last 15 years. I start to see imbalance, postural imbalance, especially at the brain level in kids at 15. That 15 years ago I used to see on guys at 40 and girls. That's dangerous. You get more fat, bad posture makes you digest less, your liver gets compressed because one shoulder is higher than the other. There's there's a cascade. Insulin resistance is way higher in bad posture. It's been research. Uh, you make less money if you have a bad posture. It's a president, a US president. Uh, usually or they they when they have a better posture, they'll have a better chance to win. Rarely you'll get a 5'2 bald head guy's round back as a it's true, regardless of his credentials. He could be the most brilliant guy in the world or girl. She's a bit chubby, she doesn't have a good posture, she has a weird voice, uh, no hair. No one's gonna vote for him. I mean, that's the problem. That's because it's the image of a winner. Oh, I you want to you want to hire, like, okay, that guy's gonna go with it. I'll be to I'll go to war with that person. And that's that's the same thing in hockey. A good coach will always tap the guys, keep them up, always talk to them in a positive way, never scream at them, keep that to the office after, and always encourage. Let's go, guys. Yes, there is a mistake. Let's go. You know what to do. We practiced it yesterday. Let's go, guys. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Well, off of that, I got three things that come to mind, sir. Uh uh,

PGA Story And Eye Drills Under Pressure

SPEAKER_00 46:38

one, uh, I heard you tell a story uh with Matt about work with the PGA athlete that I believe kept going to the bathroom to do eye exercises. Can you kind of talk about that? Like that just ties in with what you were saying with the the hockey guy sitting on the bench doing stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, Michael Campbell won the US Open, I think it's 2004-2005 in the Piners. He was 37 years old. He's from uh New Zealand. I met him. I used I worked with David Ledbetter for years at the academy. See, I'm I'm a I'm a pretty good golfer, but I'm like I was never a big fan because I always thought of them that okay, it's a game, it's not even a sport, but it's fun, it's very skilled. Then uh I knew that Michael was going to see me because he had a bit of a shoulder problem and he wanted to qualify. He was 37 years old, and uh, think his best finish was ever with like fourth at the U at the British Open, but he's a very good athlete. He used to play rugby, he's Maori from New Zealand, pretty jacked up and really nice guy. And uh Jonathan Yarwood, his coach, uh, was with Ledbetter, and I was they were on the putting green, and I saw that he was worrying like they were trying to fix something. He was pulling his right-handed, pulling all the pucks to the left. The not the pucks, sorry, the ball, the golf ball to the left. And then I didn't say anything. Then he came in my because the gym, the little rehab gym was in the right next to the driving range at in Orlando. Then uh I I checked his shoulder. Obviously, there was a bit of says, What do what are you looking for? Says, I'm always pulling stuff like 10 feet in. Okay, then I do a test, he's left eye dominant. All right, now let's do a convergence test. I mean, he didn't converge at all on the right eye. So, all right, and something that's very interesting is that in the normal population, about 85% of right-handed people have the right eye dominancy. See, when we take a say we measure it with a thing like this, you put it in front of you. Which eye, me, I'm left eye dominant. But uh on the PGA tour, an LPGA, 85, it's reversed. 85% of the pro have left eye dominancy. Like for me, I'm left eye. I was pretty good in baseball, I'm lefty and in uh righty, but in golf too. And then it helps you because you're able to rotate better. But that's another story. But what happened with Michael because when he was lining up his putt, because his left eye was converging well, and his right eye could not look at the ball, obviously, to hit the ball, you need an image. An image, eyes they almost have to cross convergence. Then he had to move a bit his head this way to the left. But if you do that, your right hip is gonna come in a bit, and your club's gonna, it's unconscious, your face of the club is gonna close. Then obviously, when you putt, it's gonna go left, or you used to cut it to compensate and used to spin out, and then it says, Let me do a test, and then I just gave him horizontal figure eight for about a minute or two. Relax now, take ten balls, and I know how good they are. So I didn't want to put the 10 balls on the putting green at the same spot because these guys will nail it around 10 feet, but all over the place. I told you, 10 ball, he put nine in, and the tenth one was right on the lip. He says, Whoa, what's going on? But again, being an ex-athlete, being outdoor a lot, he responded very quickly. Although then we stick we kept it, give him some shoulder exercise, and then he qualifies the as a joke. Because I was working already with Michelle We or some of the top golfers on PG. He says, Michael, I'll do you a favor, I'll work with you, but you're not even qualified. I don't work with these, but I was joking, was pulling his leg. Then he gets qualified a month later, two months for the US Open. Then he goes to the US Open, and now he was in the lead after two or the first two, three rounds. And then he was doing his eye exercise in front of the people with a T. But the last round, he was against he was with Tiger Woods, he was ahead by two, three shots, a lot of pressure. He never won a US Open. If you win that, that changes your life. It's a life changer completely. It's like one of the when you win a major, but especially the US Open, it's crazy. Anyway, he got nervous, and I told him, Go in a port of potty, and like it's all near the greens, and go in and do a bit of eye exercise. I knew that if he goes in, first of all, it's gonna cut him from the stress, and doing that for about 30 seconds to a minute coming out. They thought he had to go to the bathroom. He might may be nervous or something is wrong, but who cares? He's allowed to. Then I don't remember exactly how many putts he did, but I think out of six bathrooms he went, I think four 30-footer. And it's, I mean, even the golf digest came here in Montreal a year after, did a story on that. And if you go online, if you put Paul Gagne in my name, and it's uh uh it it was like uh they did a big story on myself and Michael Campbell, how it happened. But and that year, yeah, he finished number one on the um Euro Tour uh Merit. I mean, he made I mean tons of money, and it it was like the the highlight of his career. Doesn't mean that only me, no combination with Ledbetter, Jonathan, everything, but I was one of the parts that was I just got that little trigger to help him solve one of the problems. Again, I didn't make him win, it's just helped him a bit, just just to show you how powerful I exercise are for your posture and also especially chipping and putting and movement, fine motor skills.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Two questions off that. One, did you try to get him in postural insoles?

SPEAKER_01 52:28

No, I didn't because it was too close, it was too close to and uh postural, he was not that bad. He didn't have that much uh imbalance, he was pretty good. But the the postural insoles are very good, but not in season. You have to be very careful unless you unless you have an injury, but it was too close to uh to that. And I see at that level, and he doesn't really know me. I want to use the minimum. See, that's where I said early on. Go to max you you want to minimum intervention for max. What is the best I'm gonna do for now? And perfect. And it happened that we hit it on the nail.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

And then why the figure eights versus kind of something to work on the on the conversion?

SPEAKER_01 53:09

No, because the fit I didn't have like the length test to see if there's three, if he had binocular vision, I assume I didn't want to take a chance. Then the figure eight is very safe because it works also corpus talism, it works the intern in neural exchange, it's pretty safe, and that that for him worked very, very well. Awesome. That's kind of my go-to when I'm not sure if I don't have the lang test, uh, or people had micro strabismus, or you have to be careful, not too much convergence, because you could create uh okay, perfect. I'm on I'm good on time. So sorry. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

No, you're good.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Uh that's good, that's good. But that's why the figure eight, when you're in doubt, everybody is pretty safe to do figure eights.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Okay, if you if you if you if you combine it even with the head figure eight, or if you combine both, if you do it on the tip of your toes, further back, different speed. This for me, I I really have fun with that.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Awesome.

Breathing Mechanics Hypoxia And Recovery

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Um, and then you kind of uh talked about it before, but combining now, I'm curious how does posture affect breathing? Because I know you're big into breathing. Um I've heard you talk about that on other podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Well, obviously, obviously, when you're sitting down like this, you're compressing your diaphragm. The biggest breathing muscle or compartment is your diaphragm. And most people are under trained, most right-ended people, the right shoulder is lower. Uh, they have anti-version. I uh I mean, we could do the whole podcast on that, but they're they're in the right side of the diaphragm, especially the dome is different shaped, then you need to open that, you need to strengthen it and also more mobility, but also strength. By doing that, there's we have different exercises for that, but the breeding is very, very interesting. See, when you use I use balloons, I will use these uh blood flow restriction devices to create more expansion and also more muscle training, uh, and also we call them the barrel receptors inside, and also tolerance of CO2, a lot of hypoxia training. We will do a lot of these type like yesterday. I had Justin Sfolapoint, one of the top skier on the free ride. Uh, we're Olympic champ, Sochi and Moguls, uh, silver medalist and Pian Chang numeral world champ. Now she's defending world champ and free ride. She won also in 2023. We did hypoxic training mixed with BFR. I use a lot like these BFR Pitkuff from Denmark's kind of the top one with their computerized. Then I do one set on the force plate of oscillation, on the Desmotec squats, on the bike in my corner, during different type one minute, one minute, one minute. Remove it. Now we do the same without breathing every 10 seconds. She takes a breath, she exhale for 10, complete movement. And then the last set, no, nothing, no restriction, it's crazy. There, there are numbers, even go up. It doesn't make sense, even after fatigue like this, being blood flow restriction, then airflow restriction, then no restriction, amazing numbers after that. And it's that's that's one system we use a lot. When your posture is affected, especially anterior scapular plane, your risk, your breathing rate will not be good. Most people also sadly, when we use a balloon, a lot of a lot of the kids, they even have a hard time to blow to blow a balloon. Very interesting that when we take this, yeah, when when I was younger, no one had a problem. You go without holding. Now I would say one out of three kids can't even blow up. They have no clue how they're breathing. They're too stressed. Uh, they don't, they're too much. When your face is in a screen, you forget to breathe. Cortisol is to the roof, that's why they're very stressed, they don't have very good vagus nerve control. And the balloon helps you a lot, first of all, for muscle feedback, but also vagus nerve stimulation. And that's very, very interesting. Also, these other devices I use like different types, you don't have to spend too much uh money on these, like uh computerized. You just need uh there's a couple on Amazon, they're like 40 bucks. You will could inhale to the mouth, exhale to the mouth. There's a restriction. I use nose clips like uh when you like the speedo one for a nose. Mix with that, mix with the balloon. You could use your own hands because you should learn to breathe only through your nose. When you restrict that, very very interesting. The result very quickly. You increase, first of all, there's no research on VO2 max, but we you create a delay and it's called a metabol reflex. If you ever ran a 400-meter run, you know what's a metabol reflex is when you do a test. Uh, with hockey players, we do a 50-50 test. You run on a track for 50 seconds, all out, walk back for 50 seconds, you go back again. We measure the distance. Believe me, you know, the metabol reflex is when your brain perceives that your respiratory system is in distress, shuts everything down, basically your legs. A lot of people they drown like that. It's happened, and let's say you're in the ocean or you're you're swimming. That happens to you a lot in that that that type of uh circumstance, and that's where training the breeding really helps you, especially CO2 tolerance. We'll have people like doing chin-ups. I do that a lot as demo. I'm doing I XL fully and I'll do chin-up. Uh, like Justin, my skier, she's working with me for over 20 years at altitude, and some of my figure skaters they could be on a bike without breeding for over 45 seconds, all out. But I'm not talking about breath hole, like and hold. No, I'm talking about XL fully, empty, and you go. Meaning, like you're able to that creates a lot of adaptation, big CO2 tolerance and a big delivery when your CO2 is very high. There's a big delivery from your hemoglobin releasing oxygen.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

Yes, sir. Now, do you do the uh the bolt test right from oxygen advantage to to kind of assess to see where athletes are or to see progress? Or do you have no?

SPEAKER_01 59:45

I do my own tests myself. Like I mean, basically, uh for athletes, I do like a sitting test, excel fully. I don't go with the work, the hunger. You go to max. Okay, let's calculate now. Let's do XL, let's do squats sitting on a on a ball or sitting on the bench. How many? Uh chin-ups, how many push-ups, how many, especially push-ups are very hard. And and that's it, that gives me a baseline, and now we work on that. And uh, see, you don't want you never want to work at max out, you always want to work under to create an adaptation because some athletes and don't do that at night, because some athletes they may get uh in panic attack, and that's where, and also we do very slow breath movement, like recovery, almost like the Buteco system, very, very understanding, like slowing down the breath with different, it's all based on priyanama, different type of position with fascia, different type compressing the diaphragm, and this is all a system that doesn't take time, really increase body temperature or cool down. You have we have cooldowns for myofascial stretching, different type of breathing, and that's the key. When they learn that, when they play hockey, especially goalies with the equipment, it's a big difference. A hockey player forward in the corner doesn't breathe. And if there's a lot of impact, it's a very rough game, uh, very physical, they're gonna create a bad Krebs cycle. They're gonna be they they they're gonna create a lot of lactic acid because their breeding rate is very, very intermittent. And that's where on the bench, on the ice, as a goalie, when there's no action, you have to resume your breeding as quick as you can, and that's the key. And before bedtime, you have to slow it down. A rule of thumb, excel longer, and that's it. And that's remember when you talk all day, like I do on Zoom, you expel a lot of oxygen. You need to do a lot of breeding techniques to re bring to balance it out because to make noise, you need to excel. Obviously, you don't breathe in as you talk.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

Yes, sir. You shouldn't.

Trends In Kids And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

Um, listen, Paul. I I don't want to, I know you we had to get going. We're I'm grateful. I am so grateful for you, sir. I got one last question for you, sir. Yeah, um, you kind of alluded to it, but I want to wanna get it like from your I mean what 30 years of being a posturologist or what what have you, what trends have you started to see, you know, uh as far as the athletes that come through your door as far as the postural system and but but way better because there's more information, although it's not always good, but like you know, it's like some of my my clients they have they own restaurants, they will always open restaurants where there's a lot of restaurants because they people go.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

And the good news is that when I started like 30 years ago, if I analyze the foot of an athlete, they look at me like I was from the moon or Mars, and then now everybody's doing it. Uh, when I start to work on eyes, they were like, Well, what are you doing? Now there's again, there's a lot of ocus, but it's all right. At least people they're more aware of it, and they're more and they understand more and more and more. I rather that someone does it a bit wrong than doesn't do it. Yeah, that's that's the key. But I I tell you, we're starting to see a big uh brain hack is huge now, and it's just starting.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Just starting.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

Well, you you were you were one of the pioneers, and uh uh you are a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

By the way, I'm gonna text you. I just received uh the the cost for your the force plate you asked me. I'm gonna send it to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

Awesome, thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. I'm gonna send I'm excited to to see that as well. But uh, Paul, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

Uh where can the listeners kind of kind of learn more about you or or or basically on my Instagram, like you uh I think you have it on my Instagram. You got my uh yeah, I can send it. That's that's the easy that's the easy that's the easiest way to get it than that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

All right, well, Paul, Paul, thank you so much.