Faith Unmuted With Esther Graham
This is the place where Christian women get the opportunity to press the button and say what they want, how they want and exactly how they feel.
The one place where, together, we can collectively walk through our truths, live unapologetically and stop hiding.
Esther Graham has being in ministry all her life and has felt silenced from all the labels and responsibilities that come from being a pastor's daughter to the unexpected role of being a pastor's wife. This journey has not been easy nor has it been just. Esther no longer wants to hid nor lower her voice.
On this podcast, Esther shares what happens when you use your voice and shares the stories of overcoming the stereotypes and living unapologetically.
Faith Unmuted With Esther Graham
When Faith and Politics Collide
Christianity and politics – a relationship as old as democracy itself, yet increasingly fraught with division in our modern world. In this raw, unfiltered conversation, I invite my husband John, a pastor with decades of experience, to tackle the thorny question: How should Christians navigate today's political landscape while staying true to their faith?
The dialogue quickly moves beyond surface-level platitudes as we share personal stories of racial profiling and explore how political allegiances have created deep rifts even among fellow believers. "It has exposed us," I note about recent political events, "and in some cases I've been quite actually embarrassed." Their honest assessment challenges listeners to examine whether political identities have overshadowed Christian values.
John brings pastoral wisdom to the conversation, reminding us that Jesus was "a unifier" who taught love, grace, and mercy – qualities often missing in today's political discourse. In this episode, we tackle controversial topics like the Black Lives Matter movement, abortion rights, and the tendency for Christians to expect special treatment from politicians who share our faith.
Perhaps most powerful is our discussion of Jesus's teaching that "a house divided cannot stand." As John warns, "I don't believe God will allow Christianity to fall, but there's going to be a lot of churches that fall" due to political division. This sobering reality check leads to our final challenge: What are you personally doing to heal division and bring people together?
Whether you're wrestling with your own political-religious identity or seeking to understand those across the aisle, this episode provides a thoughtful framework for engaging with politics as a person of faith. Subscribe to Faith Unmuted for more conversations that help Christian women live unapologetically and stop hiding behind expected norms.
You are listening to Faith Unmuted. The place where Christian women get the opportunity to press the button and say what they want, how they want and exactly how they feel. The one place where, together, we can collectively walk through our truths, live unapologetically and stop hiding.
Speaker 2:So here's the question Christianity and politics where does it go, when does it belong and how do we as Christians navigate the political climate today? So I brought someone in to have this discussion with us, my very own, my lover. That's right, ladies, I said my lover, my friend, someone I 100% admire, my husband, John. Say hello, babe, Hello, babe, Hello.
Speaker 3:Everybody Say hello babe, Hello babe, Hello everybody.
Speaker 2:Christianity and politics. I actually think that he's the perfect person to talk about this, because he's a pastor, and this is a conversation that we have quite often, especially within the past I'm going to say the past. What two?
Speaker 3:Maybe longer than that. Yeah, probably about the last six years.
Speaker 2:Last six years, yeah, and because what's happened is, you know, I guess politics and Christianity have always somehow go together, but I think in many ways, it clouds the policy. The political part of it can really cloud who we are, I believe, as Christians right, and so I think it's something that just really needs to be discussed very transparently, because there's a lot of things that we as Christians and I include myself in this is that we say we're doing this is all in the name of God and all of these different kinds of things, but it looks absolutely nothing like God and how our political climate is going today, with so many things that it looks as if oh well, you know, we're bringing our nation back to God, we're doing this and doing all these things, but it really looks like if we're moving away instead of going towards God. That's my opinion.
Speaker 3:Right. Well, you know, as we've discussed many times in the past, that politics, again, and Christianity can coexist. However, when we look at, we expect a politician that says that they're a Christian, that professes Christianity. We expect that politician to basically give Christians for lack of a better word an unfair advantage over everyone else, whereas that's not how it should be, because if you're a politician, then you're supposed to be for all the people, not just some of the people.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what is happening, especially in today's I want to say political environment. I guess is that it appears like if there's such a difference, honestly, with how we, as Christians are approaching our political beliefs, and in so many ways that it's beginning to separate us as Christians instead of bringing us together, because there appears to be such divisiveness just within the Christian community, and that is where it 100%, absolutely does not belong.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, you know, if we're talking Christians, then we're talking about followers of Christ, followers of Jesus Christ, and, in essence, jesus wasn't a divider, so to speak. He was a unifier. So he unified people through his teachings on love, on grace, on mercy and all of those things. And then and can I say this, and I'm not going to say it carefully, because it's both sides of the political arena that it's becoming somewhat difficult to trust, you know, those that we vote for and that we vote into office for it's becoming difficult to trust both Republicans and Democrats and independents, independents and whoever else you know, because I believe it's becoming more about what, what the politician can get out of the, out of the position in the office, versus what they are meant to do is to do what's best for all the people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love how you said it's to do what's best for all the people, but we actually we're not. We're not seeing that right now and I even think that we're not seeing it even in our own Christian community. Um, to where we're really, uh, if, if, if I don't agree with you, you know.
Speaker 3:Then you're cut off.
Speaker 2:I'm cut off, right or discrimination takes place, and I honestly do believe that this political climate for the past few years has really brought out who we really are as Christians. You know who we really are. It has exposed us and can I just say, it has not been pretty in my opinion, and in some cases I've been quite actually embarrassed and like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe that this person is doing this or just said this and they represent God.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:They represent Jesus, you understand. They represent Jesus you understand.
Speaker 3:Yeah, If we go back a few years back say 2020, when there were a lot of protests and all those things you know Black Lives Matter and all of that was going on, it was interesting to see that there was quite a division between people of color and people that were not of color.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, I mean, let's say, people of color and white people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we can say that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:There was a very, very strong disconnect there was.
Speaker 3:And people that I worshiped with, that I ate with, and all of those things became silent, either silent or spoke negatively about people wanting to express their constitutional rights and such, and they became silent and such and they became silent. And if we're silent and we have the ability to speak or to do something and we don't, we become complicit. It may be just as bad if we did it ourselves, if we disparaged, if we held back, if we discriminated against. That makes us complicit if we say nothing and we do nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. And I want to go even to say, you know, for those who went silent, but I also want to bring out that you know, I've seen posts and people, I know who you know all lives matter. Well, of course, everyone knows that all lives matter. We know this. But when we're saying Black Lives Matter, it's really saying we've got to focus because it was Black lives that were being killed, it's Black lives that's being, you know, shot down or or murdered, or it wasn't all lives, it was black lives and so that's why it became black lives matter.
Speaker 2:And I understand that some people say, well, it goes deeper than that politically and all that. Okay, that's fine, that's fine. I'm not talking about that. What I am saying is that all lives do matter. But when we're talking about Black Lives Matter, it was because it was the black life that was being gunned down or beaten or shot to death. It wasn't all lives, it was the black life and that was what the focus was on and it was important to bring that out. And so, while we agree black lives matter 100 percent, we agree all lives matter. That's a given. Blue lives matter, all of that we know this Life is important, but I do think at some point we have to bring out what's really happening, what the issue really is. I was going to say, and then I think everyone just wanted to shut that down, and it was really kind of disappointing, especially with many of our faith leaders. Right, all right, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if you put that in the same light, let's look at Russia and Ukraine. Yeah, and when Russia invaded Ukraine and all these lives were being taken, destroyed and everything, we went all in on that and it's, in essence, the same thing. You could say that every country deserves to exist peacefully, such and such, you know, and so and so, but not every country exists, you know, in peace. You know in peace, but Ukraine was the one at that time that was really really being what's the word? Attacked, you know, in a really, really vicious way, right? So we didn't say that all countries, right, deserve peace and deserve to keep their you know their land. We didn't say we didn't say all countries. We said you know their land. We didn't say all countries. We said you know, everybody was for Ukraine. You saw on the Facebook post the Ukraine flag, you know, and those things. So saying Black Lives Matter is putting the focus on what's going on right now, right, and you know the same as Ukraine. When you say all lives matter, you're taking the light off of that.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 3:And, and then people tend to begin to forget and normalize something that should not ever be normalized.
Speaker 2:Should not ever be normalized. It's like you know, and and and this is me in my very simplistic, very simple way of thinking, you know, even in this past election season and it's happened before where it was like the evangelicals and the non evangelicals, and so that for me became very disturbing, because what does that mean? So the evangelicals? And so if I was not? How I felt is, if I did not support this particular candidate, then I was not the right kind of Christian or a Christian at all. Does that make sense? And so it's just. And then I don't know how to explain it, but it was, it was just really disappointing, you know so, but what I see was determined as the evangelicals supporting and doing all these kinds of these different things. Is this, is this God? Is this for me? I see that it's not. This is me, though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been been, and you know I've been been preaching for decades, yeah, and and it's always a never gear a message or a sermon on, you know, based on one person or one group of people. I, because I think it wastes everyone else's time and it wastes my time as well. Yeah, and God's time, you know. So if God isn't directing and leading in that message or that sermon, there's a problem, right? So when I begin to point at one person or point at one group of people, so when I begin to point at one person or point at one group of people, then again I'm shortchanging everyone else.
Speaker 3:So my endeavor and my desire every time is to just say what God says.
Speaker 3:And we can basically take what is the Word of God and twist it and manipulate it into any direction that we want.
Speaker 3:Now, it can be done, but there's a consequence for that, and you don't want to be the one that's twisting God's word for your own selfish purposes and gain. So I find that that's happening a lot. So, politically, with again, if we go back to Black Lives Matter, and even now, in this political climate that we're in, politically, if we we Take the word of God, see what we have to do really is get it, hear it, and then we have to seek God for an understanding of what we're reading and what we're hearing, and also seek him for direction and what to say, what to do, how to say it and how to do it right, or what not to say and what not to do. And I don't think everyone is doing that now. I believe that if I took something that says, for instance, wives, be submissive to your own husbands right, I could take that and strip everything else away from it, right, and just focus on that. And I want you to be submissive, submissive, submissive, not understanding.
Speaker 2:And I'd be like uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, but yeah. But a lot of people don't understand that. What comes with that? In order for your wife to be submissive to you, you have to be submissive to him. Yeah, yeah, right. And you have to be submissive to him, right, and you have to hear him, obey him and love him, and and then the submission for the wife isn't a struggle and it's not like submission.
Speaker 2:You know I'll get back to the other, you do what I say and I become a piece of rug, and that you walk over. No, that's just not. And so I think, just like with the point you bring up, we take some things out of context and we twist it the way we want it so it serves our benefit. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But it also says you know, and I don't want to keep quoting the scriptures, but I am a pastor so the scripture also says to submit one to another Right, and that's Christian to Christian, brother to another right, and that's Christian to Christian, brother to brother, sister to sister, sister to brother, wife to husband, husband to wife.
Speaker 3:Because I've got to submit to you in some areas that I don't know well, and if I'm wise enough I'll submit to you. Know, I'll let you take the lead right, and if you're wise enough you'll let me take the lead in other areas, and then we're you and then we're a team. Teamwork makes the dream work right. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:You know, going back to what about the Christianity and politics, let's say, and going back to Black Lives Matter, for example, I remember, of course, when it all first came out and everything was going on, I was very passionate about it. First, I just sat back and listened to what everyone was saying, what they were saying on Facebook and just everywhere, and I'm very careful as to what I listen to and what I don't, and I'm also very careful with who I listen to. I think that's really important as well. But, and as I looked at and I'm going to say, you know, we've, we've had friends of ours. You know that, of course, we, we don't really see often anymore at all. We really honestly, we, we really don't see him much at all anymore.
Speaker 3:But does anybody see anybody much anymore?
Speaker 2:Well, that's true, that's that's true, that's true. But I I remember becoming really passionate about it, and I remember our our adult children did as well, because I thought about our two sons, who have both been stopped because they were black, and so for me, I understand black lives matter. We were stopped just not too long ago. About what? A couple months ago, right, we were stopped actually we weren't stopped, remember.
Speaker 3:I pulled the vehicle over because I thought something hit the truck. I get out and I check it and um, and then, as I'm going back into the car, I see these two police cars coming and they're running their lights. I'm like, oh, I'm wondering what they're going for, and I get in the truck and they pull in right behind me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's when they asked you know where are you going, what are you doing? Da-da-da-da. So you know, this is my wife, this is my daughter going home. Just came from across the bridge, okay, okay, and I drive a huge Chevy Silverado, right, and they said they were looking for and my truck is gray, yeah, and they were looking for a white Chevy Equinox.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and so how? And we looked at them like, okay, so why are you yeah?
Speaker 3:So let me see your license, your registration. Why do you need to see my license registration? I just got out to check my truck, Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the reason that you got out to check your truck was because something came flying out of the bushes and hit the windshield, so we stopped for safety reasons to see what's going on. But that's exactly what I'm talking about. I remember our son, our eldest son, john, went into a parking lot to make a U-turn because he didn't want to. You know, he couldn't make a U-turn, so he drove into the parking lot to turn out so he could go the right way, and the cop pulled up behind him and stopped him to question him why did you turn around? For no reason at all. He wasn't speeding, it was not illegal, he was perfectly in his rights.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, someone coined the phrase driving while black right, and so this is Black Lives Matter and so. But here it's expanded now, even beyond that, to where, once again, we have now politicized it so much, to where it's Christianity and non-Christianity or Christianity versus Christianity, and this is not, honestly, this is not how it should be. Here we are, as faith-based people, everyone. If you've got the rabbi, you've got the priest and everyone else, you know we're supposed to be setting that example of love, not of discrimination. Yeah, this is the bottom line. I think for me, when I think about what people are saying well, we don't want this, we don't want that, we don't want that. But I want to keep in mind that God gives us choices.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:So if he's given me a choice, why aren't you giving me a choice, right? Why is it that I have to believe like you, act like you, do like you? And if I don't, then?
Speaker 3:You love me. Yeah, exactly, or you?
Speaker 2:love me? Yeah, exactly, or I'm on the wrong side of the coin. I just remember a statement being done saying that if you are not a Republican and you're not this, then you're not a Christian. Well, how is that so? Because it doesn't matter whether I'm Republican, democrat, independent, blue, green, yellow, it just really doesn't matter. What matters is my relationship with God and who I am, and that's really between me and him, and not me and you, right.
Speaker 2:What also matters is how I treat these people, how I treat God's children, all of us, that's everyone, that's not just them, that's even the folks that let's say we don't even particularly care for. How we treat them is important. Oh, yeah, for sure. So then what do we do? I mean talk to us. You're the pastor.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the things um, as uh, as Christians, we have a responsibility to pray for our uh, our leaders, leaders in, in every position, from, from the uh, from the, uh, the, the, the teachers at your, at your, at your child's um, um, child development center, from the, you know, pray for the teachers, pray for the owners, pray for the uh, the school board, you know, the members of the school board, all of these basically elected positions. We definitely need to pray because we, if you're not voting, you should vote Right, Because, again, if you have the ability to make a difference and if that one vote can make a difference and you decide I'm not going to do it, and whatever happens, you're complicit in whatever happens, because you decided that you're not going to vote, because you think that your vote doesn't matter, right, and and it actually does. So the first thing is to pray for our leaders.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:On a regular basis. It becomes difficult when you understand that there's the person in the office and there's the office, the office of whatever it is right, and then there's the person. So, if the if so, we, we honor the office and it would be. It would be beautiful if we could honor the office and the person right. But oftentimes, in both political arenas, we end up honoring the office or dishonoring the office right and not the person. So we remove the person, um, however they act or however you know, especially if we have someone that we say is representing us as um Christian, so to speak, or looking out for the Christian uh, uh, interest, so to speak, Um, but if you're looking out for the Christian, um, uh, interest, and you have to understand this as a Christian, if you go back and you look at the, you know, biblically, God wasn't trying to rule Rome, yeah, Right, the Romans did, you know, kind of did their thing, and the Hebrews, or you know, or the Jews had their thing going.
Speaker 3:So their religion, right, they were good and they didn't spill over into one another, right, and there you have the separation of church and state, right. So praying for our leaders and praying for ourselves, direction and what we should do, how we should do it, what we should say, how we should say it, how we should treat other people right and the people that we should be and should not be connected to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I like that because I will tell you which you know. You already know how I feel. This is something that we talk about all the time and how we feel, and sometimes we agree and sometimes we may not agree, but I personally, I'm tired and I get really embarrassed with how sometimes I see Christians behaving.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You know and the things that they say and what they believe and how they're going to stand. And here, what really bothers me is that here you are, you're a Christian, you're standing up, people know you, you're this, and then you're supporting someone that is lax moral, uncivilized Fortitude, Fortitude. Let's say, yeah, you know. How is that possible? How can I support and it's not even repentant of their lack of moral fortitude that, basically, how and no matter who it is how can I support that and say it's OK?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And I'm a Christian and then I expect other people to look at me and follow me and, by the way, that I feel like, if I can rebuke you, because guess what? You obviously you're not understanding this whole Christianity thing, because we don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and one thing I like that you always say that we have to see above sea level, right? And in other words, we have to see above what we can normally see. And the only way that we can do that is through our relationship with God and and allowing him and allowing him to, uh, to basically direct us in, um, in again, what we're going to do, what we're going to say, all of these things and um, and it it becomes, you know, nowadays it's okay, um, I don't agree with that, right? So, um, I don't agree with that at all, right, there's so many things that we could talk about. Let's let's say abortion, right, nobody wants to see a baby.
Speaker 2:Nobody does.
Speaker 3:Killed or anything like that yeah.
Speaker 3:Understand, right, but no one wants to see. Well, I don't, um, but no one wants to see. Well, I don't. I don't want to see a 12 year old that's been impregnated by um, by a vicious crime. Right Now. You don't even have to name the crime, Everybody knows what it is. Right, um, I don't want to see a 12 year old girl have to deal with that mentally, physically and in every other way. Right? So am I against abortion? I'm against abortion, yes. Am I against a woman having choice? No, I'm not against that at all.
Speaker 3:A woman, a 12-year-old girl or whatever the case, we have the right to do with what we want with our bodies. Girl, or whatever the case, we have the right to do with what we want with our bodies and um and um, you know, uh, god is not a, he's not a a. A tyrannical um, you know, figure that makes you do things that will destroy you mentally, physically and emotionally. He's not that God. He's not that God, right, he's the God that loves you to healing. He's the God that directs you in the ways that you should go that would make your life prosper. He's that God. He wants to see us do our best. He wants to see us prosper in every area of our life. And if we take that away from people, if we try to take that away, then we ourselves are putting ourselves in the stead and in the place of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah, listen, I just believe that all lives matter. Black lives matter, the Latino lives matter, women's lives matter, children, all lives matter. Black lives matter, the life, latino lives matter, women's lives matter, children are. All lives matter.
Speaker 2:But we do have to bring the focus on what is actually going on in our world today. And as Christians, right, or, let me just put it this way, as people of faith, right, we need to stand up and let our voice be heard. I've got good friends that are Muslim. They are Catholic. I've got a friend that she's that's Buddhist. I've got you know, and I find them to be people of strong character and integrity.
Speaker 2:And we may have a different faith and, by the way, even as Christians, some of us have different beliefs and faith. But this is it that we need to respect each other and realize that everyone is in choice. And if we are faith-based, let's do what God would have us to do and let's just love and let's not try to put my belief system, but let's actually look and see what is right and what is wrong. And there's no way. And I don't care what your race is, I don't care what your denomination is, non-denominational, whatever I don't care what your religious background is.
Speaker 2:Right is right and wrong is wrong. You cannot discriminate, you cannot treat women badly, you cannot sexually assault them. There's things these are just more to me, these are just morality things. This isn't even like well, I'm not sure. No, it's right. And so, therefore, if little Joe, living the way God has planned for us to live, we have to embrace it. And here's the other piece let's stop judging. I don't know, maybe it sounds like if I'm judging right now, I don't know, talking about Christianity and the political system. Maybe that's what I sound like right now. I don't know, but this is it. I just feel so passionate about this because I'm so tired of and I get embarrassed, and I know, not all Christians are like that, but I don't see how, how a Christian can embrace some things that we are and I say we include myself that we are actually embracing, or people of faith, we're embracing things that we have no business embracing.
Speaker 3:So Jesus went against the grain, right? So he's casting out these devils and these demons. And they come and they tell Jesus hey, you know, he's casting out these demons in the name of Beelzebub, right? Which is, you know that in essence it's Satan, right? So he's doing that in that name. And Jesus comes back and he says a house divided against itself can't stand. So if I'm casting them out in the name of Beelzebub, then that's going to fall, right. But again, you know, a house against itself cannot stand, cannot stand. So if we're saying, um, that we are christians and we're always at each other's throats and always fighting and can't agree with anything, right on anything, then, um, I don't believe that god will allow christianity to fall. But there's going to be a lot of churches that fall. There's going to be a lot of churches that fall. There's going to be a lot of other ministries or whatnot that fall. There's going to be families that fall because they can't come together. When we're divided, we lose our strength.
Speaker 2:You lose our strength. Yeah, and, by the way, when you think about America right now. And by the way when you think about America right now, america is divided, so that applies to America as well. A house divided, you know, a house divided cannot stand. America right now is very divided. We are politically divided, which has caused us to be racially divided. It's caused us to be in terms of religion divided, which, by the way, anyway, religion and religious that separates, that doesn't bring together anyway. But but we've got a lot of divisions going on. So a house divided cannot stand. Our struggle right now is that we're divided. We're divided and we have to come together. And I just don't know really how we're going to do it. Until we get rid of some of our biases and some of our judgment and say, ok, how can we come together as a people?
Speaker 3:How can we for the?
Speaker 2:greater person. How can we coexist for the greater purpose? Our children are depending on us.
Speaker 3:Our children are not only depending on us, but our children are watching us. Yes, they are. They're watching us and it's going to do and from them watching us, it's going to do one of two things it's either going to draw them to where we are or it's going to push them away from us.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And if we're saying that we're doing all of this, now listen. If we're saying we're doing all of this in the name of God, in the name of Christianity, and our children see it and know from what we've taught them that it's not really Christ-like right, then it's going to push them away, it's going to drive them away and they're going to say they want no parts of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we've had some powerful leaders, know, powerful leaders in our time. We've, you know. I think about Dr Martin Luther King, I think about Mahatma Gandhi and a few other leaders that have just been powerful in leading the march against any level of discrimination. Women are also included, as in that, and I think that as a community, as a culture, we really do need to really search ourselves and we do need to come together and stand everyone for what is right. We don't have to have the same belief system to stand together to do what is morally right. We don't.
Speaker 2:There's some things as plain as day y'all. It doesn't take a rocket scientist Right that we could do together to stop the madness that's happening right here in our own country. And so you know, as we end this session, this powerful discussion, I want you to have the discussion in your homes. What are you doing to bring the world together? What are you doing to affect change, first in your home and then in your community, then in your city and then in the world? What are you doing? You could do one small thing to do that, because it is time for us to come together and let's stop the madness. Let's stop the madness that's going on in DC and wherever else we are. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Wasn't that episode amazing Living unapologetically. Faith unmuted has allowed us once again to ask ourselves the kind of questions that will help us get to the next level and live this life unapologetically. Your next step head on over to wwwesthergramcom and let me know what your favorite episode is Ask a question or share this with a friend. I can't wait to be with you next week as we dive deeper into redefining what it means to be a Christian woman and redefining what it means to live in our truth.