Ep 44- Your Goal Should Be To Become Political with John Whitney

In this episode of Kanter Kulture, I sit down with AQHA amateur exhibitor John Whitney for one of the most honest conversations we’ve had yet about what it REALLY takes to level up in the all-around industry.

We dive into:
• going from Level 1 → Level 2 → Level 3 competition
• the truth about “horse show politics”
• why consistency matters more than quick success
• campaigning horses the RIGHT way
• building young horses over time
• confidence, mental toughness, and showmanship strategy
• balancing horses, careers, money, and family life
• why some amateurs continue improving… and others plateau

John shares his journey from cleaning stalls and riding difficult horses in 4-H to competing at the highest levels of AQHA competition, all while balancing corporate life, family, and the realities of amateur showing.

If you’ve ever felt intimidated by the Level 3 pen, frustrated trying to “move up,” or questioned whether you belong in certain arenas… this episode is for you.

This conversation is packed with reality checks, motivation, strategy, and the kind of horse show talk we all have standing in the aisle at midnight after a class.

And honestly? Some of the things John says about “politics” in the horse industry might completely change the way you look at competition.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I am currently sitting with the John Whitney and he has a lot to say. So, John, welcome to Cantor Culture.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

So you stopped me the other day at the horse show. We're here at The Madness and you said, I want to talk about this. And we talked for like 45 minutes in the aisle, and I'm like, that's it. We're just gonna go record because he has some really neat points that I think a lot of us can relate to. But before we get into all of that, I want to know. I know you from the amateur committee with AQHA and just from showing in general, but it's you're like an anomaly in the fact that you're a guy and you show the all-around and you're a dad. Like there's some things. So so where did this start? Tell us. I don't usually ask people about themselves, but I want to know about you.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

It started early in elementary school. I had a family friend that had horses. Okay. And she did not let me ride her horses.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Oh, yeah, because you can't just do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yeah, no. It was not like, oh, come, you know, clean the tack and do it. It was it was come clean the tack only and clean the stall. So I did a I did a few like three years really, you know, almost every weekend or every other weekend. Yeah. And maybe one weekday going to see her horses, clean their stall, watch her ride, watch somebody, her, her daughter ride. And then I was there to help out. I got on every once in a while. And then in high school, so that was, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh grade. Okay. Took maybe eighth grade off, ninth grade off. And then in high school, got into local 4-H.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

And uh just started from there.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

So you sound like the ideal boyfriend, actually. You know, you would just go and clean tech and clean her stalls and watch her ride. Like I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

I think it's it it also shows the barn that I'm at I'm at. Yeah. Robin and Jenny, because they are definitely a hard work type of a barn. It's you do that and I do enjoy the physicality of horses. Like I like being dirty, I like working hard, I like cleaning cleaning stalls, mucking. So I think I think the outlet, the physical outlet, was always nice. I was never gifted in sports. I think I did all of them or I tried them all, but I was much more of a scorekeeper and I could do the math and I could do tabulations for it better than seeing me do any sports. The actual sport itself. Yeah. So but still being a guy, I like the physicality. So horses always gave me like a physical outlet for it as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Do you still do that?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Do you clean your own stall and like I I went to college and when I went to college, I lived in a barn. Oh four of my five years. Wow. Literal, literal barn. Like it was a barn apartment. And I had brought my horse with me. That's so cool. I didn't have a ton of support to do it. So I had to make my horse bill zero and to make my rent zero. So I did that by cleaning stalls. That's pretty awesome. It was a lot of work. So now you're over it. Yeah, I did it for five years. 35 to 40 stalls. Yeah. You know, two times a week was was a lot. I bet. So yeah, so I'm not a big stall cleaner, but I am a big groom. Oh like I really am into making sure that the horse come from 4-H, right? Yeah. The one way to lose when you step from 4-H into into AQHA, the one way to lose is to not look the part. And that's not your clothes, that's your horse. Like, are they groomed the way that they need to be groomed? Like, do they have the coat that they need to have? So when I was in college again, I was at a working cow horse ranch. Uh and I was the only one that like had my horse under lights.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah. Yeah. They don't care about that stuff. I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

I he got bats. He got he got groomed. So so yeah, that's that's where that's where it comes from.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

So you had a horse, so you did you buy a horse in high school? Or how'd you get your first how'd you get your first horse? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Through 4-H, which is actually where I knew my now wife from that as well. How did how did how did it happen? Miley, Erica's mom had access to horses and she let me have the one that that she had had just as a lease. That's what I took up. And then during that time, there was a man that was showing horses that had a late cut stud that was kind of unruly. He was not a nice animal. That sounds like a great first experience. Yeah, not a nice horse, beautiful horse. Uh-huh. And they needed to find a home for it. And just through the inner workings, I was a home that that you can find. And he ended up being a really great horse for me. He took me to the showmanship. He took me to my first quarter horse shows. I did all of that. But that's actually where I got my first horse. And I like leapfrogged from him each time to try to get something that either is more specialized or more at the level that I want to be at. Yeah. So I think I just lucked out and it was quality first, not like the broke show horse. Right. That was something I could put my time and effort in at the level that I was at, but the quality was something that you really needed to make sure that you had going into it.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I love that because I think you see, some people just want to like buy the one they can sit on right now and go show now. And I understand for some people that could be a priority. Maybe they don't have a lot of time to wait or whatever. But I have always had to buy the ones that maybe were had potential. Like that either it didn't work for somebody or it was an oversized pleasure horse, or yeah, like you said, like a stud that just didn't make it, maybe. And as a gilding, it would be phenomenal. So I think that's really interesting that you said, I can wait for this. I can wait. I can make it what I need it to be.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah, and I sought help. So, like when I when I did it, I was with Kelly Heinley and Transit of Court's in California. Yeah. And I knew that he needed at least four or five months. And that's something that I saved up for. And I put him down there for four or five months and then took him home and kept going back and forth and then kept with kept with him, with her as much as I possibly could. And I knew that he was quality and I knew my capabilities, but I also knew that I needed help. So I went and got myself help to do that. So that's when I that was really in college when I wanted to go from doing open horse shows to get into the corridor stuff. I could go to the open horse shows and I was competitive. I can go to the court horse stuff and I was competitive, but I wasn't the winner. Right. And I wanted to win. Yeah. That's why we do this, right? Yeah. A class of 12 and I'm sixth. Okay, great. Like I'm not last. I'm not embarrassed. Right. I can't really do it. But I needed help. And that's what I did. I went and I found myself help to be able to be competitive in that, that, those, those first years of doing it.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

I love that. Because again, so you were kind of like a do-it-yourselfer a little bit. Yep. So did you just like board the horse somewhere? And then because your family didn't have like property or anything, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah. So so when I got Dawson, he came up to me and I needed to teach him manners. And so that was something. He was he was he was rough. You would get you would brush him, and probably nine out of every 10 times you'd kick kick him. So he he was he was a bit rough. He ended up becoming like little kids' horses that could go and underneath him. And like he went kids and took them to their novice championships for the first time. So he did turn the corner. So I needed to teach him manners and I needed to just get get him to go around. He was broke. Don't get me wrong. You can ride the horse. He was not, I was not at a level to be like a cult starter or anything along those lines. He was four when I got him. And once I once I rounded the corner and I knew that he was something to invest in, that I could see him taking me to where I wanted to go. Again, I wanted to get out of open shows and get into the quarter horse world. I said, okay, I need to go and give him some time. So I called up Kelly and I kind of said, you know, like, when is the time that you're home the most maximize this? Yes. Uh, and when, when do you think is the best time for me to kind of invest in him? And how long do you need for it? Horse trainers recommends full-time training. That's what it is. Yep. And I said, okay, let me go ahead and do five months. I think I ended up doing six months. Okay. And I did that during like my winter season of school so that I was focused in college to do it. And then I got him back during the summer to kind of do the first summer with him. Oh, cool. And then we kind of be bopped back and forth between doing that for the next, you know, four years with him.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Wow. So what prompted you? So how actually I have a question first about training him even for manners. Like, how did you know what to do? Like who was there anyone helping you?

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Or like how did you I still am always open to what people say, right? Like it's never, never anything from that. So Jeff Walker is a great man. He sadly passed away of cancer years ago. But it was his property that I was at. Okay. And he was a kid that had parents that really loved the Western pleasure and made him show the Western pleasure. And when he became an adult, his parents uh helped him with a ranch and he wanted to do a working cow horse. Oh, cool. Okay. That's what he did. Uh-huh. He understood the world that I was that I was in. He respected it. He had two pleasure horses in training with him at the time. There were pleasure all around. And so he really helped me. Like I went to him and he showed me different ways that we could kind of reprimand him appropriately. And to do that, I had other mentors that were around that I could call up and ask the questions on how to do it. And a lot of it was just instinct of knowing that no matter what, he was going to get angry. So you had to like lose that anger and pick your battles.

unknown 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Pick the time. It's like a toddler. Yeah. When do you want to teach him that that was wrong? Yeah. And when it wasn't. So it was like, okay, he can stomp the ground. He can kick out of the ground. I'm not going to react or anything. But the moment that actually does a kick, that's when the reprimand's going to come in and you're going to tell him no. Yeah. And you're going to really make sure that that's understood. And then you're going to gradually build to where he doesn't do that. And again, he just needed to understand the box that he was allowed to do.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, it's boundaries. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

I ended up selling it's a crazy story. I sold him to buy my next horse, which was a horse named MM Western Alleghancer Molly, that was like my first true quality animal to go to go out. He was gone out of from me for two years. He went to a college to go beyond a college team. They ran out of room and they called me up and they said, Would you be willing to do a donation to buy it to get him back? I said, Whatever you need. So I took him back and he went into the 4-H group with my now mother-in-law Miley at the time to go and be with a bunch of kids. And her program was super level one based. And so he went, he took like three kids to their first level one. Well cool. I did that. So he just came, he like full circle. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I had him until we ended up having to put him down. So and then but he was like my gateway, right? Like I put my my time into him. We were talking earlier about like quality of horse is really important. So I knew that he he was good for where I was, which was, you know, mid-level, middle of California horse shows. But I wasn't gonna take him to Sun Circuit and go and win everything with him. Like I wanted to. Okay. And again, just novice. This was me back. This was before level one changing. Okay, what year, what year are we talking? When did you start AQHA showing? Um I graduated John and I are about the same age, so uh 2002. I think 2002 was like my year, 2003. Okay. So then this was right out of college, like 2006, 2007 is when when I first started to try to to do the work with Molly, trying to take her into it.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

But then life happened. I had to like pause for a little while. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah. And that's okay, right? And I I talked to so many people too that they're like, how do we balance all of this? You know, how do you balance like like maybe parents paid for stuff up until college or through college, and then you graduate and they're like, okay, now it's your turn, you have to figure it out. And then you get married, you have a family, and how do you justify spending all this money on yourself? Like it is, you know, you think about it that way. And I always tell people, horse shows will always be here, they're never going anywhere. So if you have to take a minute, yeah, can always come back.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Agreed. Always. And it's at your it's within your control. Yeah. So I mean, uh when we get into, you know, some of the some of my more opinionated items. If you're somebody that wants to show at two local horror shows and then go to the world and expect yourself to be getting a globe, that's just probably not in your deck of cards. No. Like you're you're just not exposed the way that you need to be exposed. You're not seeing the patterns that you need to see. You're just not seasoned the way. It would be like somebody performing at a local community theater for two shows and then going to Broadway and expecting to get the lead in, I don't know, wicked or something. It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. No, you're just you're just not, you just need the time to do that. Yes. And so I would encourage, and what I did at the time was what was within my control. Obviously, we all want to go and get the globe. That's that's the goal. It took me all the way until last year to be able to get the globe, right? Yeah, so it takes a while to try to to do that. But that doesn't mean that you didn't find success like throughout. Right. In different ways. In different ways. Yeah. You didn't find the success that like you needed with your horse and your abilities at the time with where you were at to kind of like to get there. Yes, for sure. So that's a big way to figure out how to afford this. That's true. Yeah. Like you don't need to jump in and campaign.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

No, because you're gonna be disappointed.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

You're gonna be disappointed. Yeah. It's also not as fun. No, it's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Well, okay, so I have this green horse that I brought here, and I was gonna show her in that rail horse association class, right? So I came over to like the arena where all the pleasure people are practicing, and it's very thick and very intense. And I am, you know, I'm not that way. I like walk out there like all smiley, wanting to like say hi to everybody, and they're all like very intense. But I was thinking about it, the money on the line for them at their level and what a lot of them are doing is very different than someone like me that shows the all-around. And I and I was like, I'm out there like, oh, this is a very different vibe than the warm-up arena for the all-around stuff. And I had to think about that for a minute. And I'm like, these horses are probably a lot more expensive, they're a lot more specialized, they have to perform because they're, you know, what the one class is like$150,000 or something. I don't know. But so it was interesting for me even to see that, like the different mindsets in different arenas. Because like I feel even in like the all-around warm-up pens, like it's intense, don't get me wrong. But I feel like a lot of us, there's a good camaraderie for the most part.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Well, I want to tell you because I was sitting there with Gentry watching you, and we were talking about you because we really liked your horse. Oh, thanks. And we're like, that's gonna make a great all-around horse. All-around horse she is, right? We I think we were commenting on she's super cute in the pleasure, and we're excited to see it in to like what what you're gonna do with it. Yeah, and also I think we were also saying, Oh crap, now we gotta think about ourselves because like she's gonna step up with this like super nice, nice horse going in. Which is good to hear too, because like that's what the amateurs are doing when you're looking at each other, like we're complimenting each other looking at it.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I think so too.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Like, yeah, and it was definitely out of like super happiness for you to be out there to do it, and also just also like thinking about ourselves and where we've been to try to get there as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Wow, she's gonna really building a new one is hard though. Building a new one is hard. You know, I have Zeus who's like, I don't have to lunch him, I know what to expect, I know how to prep him. He's so easy. He pretty much gives me the same thing every single time. I know I have this young horse that I'm like, I don't know anything about her, and like I don't know what I'm doing. So, and that is cool. I feel like all of us have been there.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

And and and just like you said before with your other horse, like I'm willing to wait. Like whatever she needs to do, like, I'm cool with that. I'm in no hurry at all. I don't want to push it. I want to have a horse for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Well, and it's also in looking at like what I've done with it. My best class is my showmanship. I've always been very, very competitive in that, or also really enjoyed it. Yes. And I've had to make every single one. Yes. So Dawson was the first one. I made him Molly came in, I had to make her Reese, which I think we were third at the NSVA with her. Yeah. I had to make her from the ground up. Then I got little John, the one that I just had, I had to make him. Nothing came like ready to go, or even uh none of them even knew how to trot. Let's just say that. Yes. They didn't know how to even go off of a chain before we got them. So yeah, it takes time. Yes. I tell people to me, it's six years. If you want a level three horse, it's gonna take you six years and you may not get it.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Right. So, okay, so with that, I have told people too, I feel like it takes a full year to get to know the horse, first of all, to have like any kind of like understanding of each other, right? And then year two, you're like, okay, I can go show a little. Year three, you've got the plan, you've got the prep, you can start to show. And then I agree with you, it gets better from there. Yep. And and then people start to notice you, you're consistent, you have the same performances time and time again. But these people that switch horses every year, I don't know how they do it. I don't know how they do it. Yeah because I can't.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah, it's it's hard. It's hard. And the years that it takes, uh it depends on the the class, right? Yeah, true, true. Showmanship. Let's talk showmanship too. Showmanship, showmanship to me, you're competing against really seasoned old horses and people that really have dialed in on their showmanship to get it to get them there for it. So it took us four years to just be able to be competitive. But again, it's all like again, I I don't want people to see narrow only get a globe, right? Right. Because we did level two with him and we won the nation in the level two with him, and that was great. And I got myself a bronze in level two, but it took three more years just to get into the finals of the showmanship. Right. I I was winning the level two, I couldn't make it back to the finals in the level three. Three years in a row until the third year that I actually did something with it. So And wasn't that frustrating was that frustrating though? Well it was because I think it was 16th both years. Oh and that was that was rough or 16th and 17th. It was it was it was rough, but you know I think that's where like the word campaign comes in. Yeah, and like when if I want to get into what what does that mean when when I tell people like you have to campaign your horse, to me it's very, very specific. And it's also let's get into it. Yeah, I'll tell you. Let's get into it. Okay. So Jenny and I, we sit there. Jenny Fredd. Jenny Fred, yeah. So I I trained with Robin and Jenny Fred. They're both amazing humans. Do you live far from the barn, by the way? Not anymore. I did when we first did it. So my live trajectory was that I gave Molly to Erica. Okay. We were just dating at the time. We weren't married at the time.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

What a great present.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

We were pretty serious.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

That's pretty nice.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

I think we got married within a year or so. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So she she took Molly. I then needed to build my career. And in doing my career, I went out on my own and made my own little business for a year trying to trying to do it. That didn't work, but that business brought brought me to Texas.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Oh, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

So in bringing me to Texas, I actually brought Molly to Texas for Erica. And I think I was sharing her just in the showmanship. Okay. To do that, to go specifically with Robin and Jenny. That business didn't work out, and then we stayed in California where we're from for another five years until we moved out to Texas four years ago.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Oh, okay. Okay. So now we're we're pretty close. Yeah. So you get to the barn a lot.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

I d you have to.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Also, thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

It is true. I don't think I don't think Jenny would like accept it if I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

But I also love that because I I feel like also people think that that's not a thing. Especially you know what I realized with the top level three all-around amateurs ride a lot. A lot. Yes. Yeah. This is not a sit and win thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

I mean one, our horses aren't ridden seven days a week. Sometimes they are, but probably six, to be honest with you, specifically when we're getting ready. And I think Erica now and when we're trying, like specifically on summer, we're there at least four days a week.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

To try to do it. And she'll go in at six o'clock in the morning. Wow. And Robin will be up for her in in the dark or whenever it is at six in the morning. And they'll school with the new school and then she'll drive herself to work.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

That way. So that that's how she'll get two days, and then we're always there, like our two weekend days for what we need to do.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Like that is commitment. And you know, I so like I'm I do it myself, but and I get help from others as far as lessons and at horse shows, but I'm the same way like at home. Like, I mean, it's every day.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

You have to.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

It's every day because I want to know my horses that well.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Well, and you have to. Yeah. Like you you, you, you really do. And I would say that a lot of that is that both Robin and Jenny are very encouraging of that. Like they're that's cool. You want to do well. And so that's where it starts. That's what campaigning is. Yes. So number one, I think when we sit down with when I sat down with Jenny probably five years ago and said I said, I want to get this level three. Like I want to get into the level three. So I think it was a level two at the time. Doing well. I wanted to be very competitive in the level three. That was what the goal was. Yep. Obviously, everyone out there, it's always to win a trophy. That's always the goal. Of course. But like the we needed to be we need our goal was to step into level three and and command respect when when we went in there. Number one, she said, Okay, she's gonna she told me you're gonna need to be here four days a week. Like you need to get committed. I travel a lot for work. She understands that. But she's like, You really need to be committed to do it. Number one, number two, fitness. I really had to get myself into a physical shape to be able to get this done for it. Yes, obviously always looking better makes you do better, but it really was also just straight fitness. Like nobody loves seeing somebody out of breath and show them shit. We are, but you really need to try to not be quite like especially because for me and the way that I do it and the way that I like my style to be, I'm a bit more serious. I'm not shaped the same way as everybody else that's out there. I'm an old man, really. I'm not, I'm not what what everything else is. So I really I try to try to trot really strong and really fast. I try to do things that are maybe as I push myself at athletically as I can to be able to do that. Okay. So campaigning. So doing that, sitting down, and then we needed to map out our year. We need to make sure that we're going to the shows and in an effort to try to get yourself in front of as many judges as you can, but also level set yourself out there with it. That's one of the big things that was nice to be with a really solid barn is that they we tend to go from Arizona to Florida. Yep. So we can see pockets of competition that we want to kind of see how do we do that? Because there are great people all over the country. If you can't level yourself against them when you go out there, how are you gonna know that you're gonna try to beat them at the at the world?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

So Jenny definitely likes for us to try to budget as best as we can to try to get to the pockets of where it is. Obviously, the madness is a big one. That was always a goal because up here the shaman chip is fantastic. Yeah. You have Melissa Jones up here, yeah. I mean, Jessica Baird has always been somebody that I've always looked up to. She's amazing. Amazing. And with a young one, she is she is amazing for it. So you wanted to get yourself up here, Florida. You wanted to get to, and then obviously Arizona was the one. But you also don't only do big shows. You need the smaller shows to be able to go to. You get yourself practice but in a different way when I campaign. I practice differently when I know that I'm campaigning than when I am for just like regular or bringing a horse along. Really? Okay. All right. Let's talk about it. Yeah. I'm when when when our goal is, let's say, to make to the finals a level three, because that was what the goal was.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Two years in a row. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Make it to the finals in level three. That's the goal. You needed to season yourself that you were a level three winner. Yeah. Every time you went out there.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah. You know, and that's hard. And I and I will say, like, even for me, okay, I showed in Florida and then I went to like a really small local show at home, like in New Jersey, and then I came here. My first day out in the showmanship here was like I was in New Jersey. It was, I was not good enough. I just wasn't good enough. You know, I really wasn't because I think I what did we had to like, it was like a trot, a walk, and then another trot or something. And when I practiced, my trot to walk was like meh. So I had it in my head and like that I wasn't stellar in my practice. And then I went towards the end of the group, and there were so many people that loped in that class, and I sat there watching them lope that I was so conservative that it was so boring. Okay. It was so boring. And then after I got through half of the pattern and I didn't mess up, I was like, okay, now I can hit it hard. Like it was so inconsistent. Like my mindset was so inconsistent. Okay. That I got to the very, very end and I slid a pivot foot because I like all of a sudden went from this like super conservative, don't screw up, don't screw up to like, okay, hit it hard. And it just made no sense. You know, and I didn't have like a good plan and I didn't go out there and show like a level three that I should be showing, like, you know. So I get that. And that mindset, I think if you're not showing consistently. So what I'm saying is like I was in Florida, I took some time off, went to a little show, and I didn't push myself with that little show. And then I came here and I should have been in a better headspace or something. But because I've been off, not seasoned. I'm not seasoned.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Yeah. It's and and it's a really important thing that Jenny has always said. She's like, you can't have no no break of foot, no mistakes. Like I know. You need to be as correct as you can. And I learned, again, if you look at like my trajectory, right? I had won the the nation level two. Okay. So it's not like I wasn't doing well. Right. Right. This was me wanting to go. That's a good point. This wasn't this wasn't like, hey, John, you know, you need to become competitive. You're a competitive. And I was trying to go to the next left ball. I was trying to bring myself up to the next software. And in doing that and in having that mindset, I learned a lot more about myself for stamina, consistency, how to execute, how to actually deliver, how to be so much better. Because I was pushing myself at every horse show to do it. Now, does that mean that I'm giving the the quickest back in the whole entire world every time? Yes and no. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yes, I'm asking for the same respect for it. Every time. Every time.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Every time I back, it's the same respect. Yep. Am I pushing him as fast as he could possibly go? Probably not. Okay. Probably not. Probably holding that back at times. Okay. But you better believe that the respect is there. That if at any time I was there and I asked just for that notch up, he better do it. Better do it.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

That's the level that you need to be performing at. It's the same thing for everything that you're doing. The speed and the run. Could I run a little bit faster? I could, but it would not fall apart. I knew for it. Yeah. You had to know. So you are performing at that level over and over again. And you found holes. Yeah. I found things that I could really improve upon. Stuff about that when I got to that level and I pushed myself there, all of a sudden I become animated when I start at my cone.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

So now I'm walking around my horse and my shoulders coming up and it look it looks so novice. Okay. Like I'm pushing myself because I'm getting in this headspace to do it. Yeah. And all of a sudden, that has it. That sets a tone. I I now come out looking like this novice or not looking like it. So there, something new to work on at home. You had to slow it down. Yeah, slow that down. But then you had to turn it back up to be able to run as fresh as you can. All of those things. Break down to the walk. Don't do it with your hand. Just do it. Just do it. Do you know what?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

And that, you know, okay. So like back in the day, I feel like it used to be such a thing to like stop and then walk. Like like make it like really harsh. And now it's this like melt and flow into a walk. That is freaking hard.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

It is so hard to think about doing the walk forward, which I know like in dressage, like that's how you you're supposed to like the walk should be an upward transition almost, right? But it is hard to do in Choma Changing. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

It's really hard.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

And it should just so, but in thinking about like trying to like level up, get yourself up there and like campaigning yourself. That is a known decision that you're trying to get better at and you're trying to get into a group that you really want to be competitive at. And could you deliver a pattern that's worthy? Yes. But could you do it consistently? Yeah. And could you command that from the very get-go? Probably not.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

And that took three years. That was three years of me doing it. And I had success those years. Okay. Like I got my name called. I got my name called at the NSBA. Like I did what I needed to do, but it took time to get where you needed to be.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

And money.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

And money.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

And money. And you know what? And that's the thing. Like, I think a lot of people say, like, keep showing up, keep showing up. Because, you know, like, okay, you were winning the level two. Yep. And then you come into the level three and they're like, hey, thanks for coming. You're fifth. And you're like, oh my God. You know, like, which is still great.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

It's still great. But it's not. But it's not what you want. It's not what you want.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

It's not. It's not what you want. So, and it gets discouraging because you're spending the money, you're going out, you're put, you're doing what you think you should be doing, trying to do your best. And it is, it's hard to keep showing up. I will say that. I mean, I think it is. Yeah, I think like how do you push through that?

SPEAKER_02 30:26

So I think the number one, the number one thing that everybody needs to understand is why do you do this? Your why.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

That's a corporate thing, even, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Like what's your why? What's your why? Yes. So I come from corporate America. I tend to win with my brain. So if I wanted to get something done, I can think it through. I can outthink my my my peers and I can use my my knowledge and my capabilities to it. You can't think your way better with a horse. No. And that's a great challenge for someone like me. I like leaving my corporate world behind and saying, I can't think this. I have to feel it. This is this is a sport. It really is about athleticism and doing it. And so again, I'm not super, I'm not, I'm not, I can't throw football great. I can't do it. Same. I was center. That's what, you know, I didn't do didn't do much, didn't do much for it. But with horses, that outlet is is really great for for me to be able to do it. So that's the why. So how do you keep showing up? It's the why. It's why, why do you show up? Well, I'm not showing up to win, number one. I'm showing up because I need this outlet in my life. And this is my chosen outlet. Yeah. The money was something that you that I got to to where I figured out how to live and balance this, make the decisions in a lesser of a home, maybe a lesser of a car, doing what I needed to do to be able to opt to do it and budget myself up. But once once you're here and getting discouraged or going out and you know, getting 16th for the second year in a row at the world show in your best class, right? Getting there, why do you come back? Because I'm doing it for a different reason. Okay. Yeah. Not just not just the win. The win is just something that really provides a nice drive for it. Yes. But it's not, it's not the reason. It's not the the why to do it. So I would say like if you are thinking about giving up, go back to why. I like young horses. I like the challenge of doing it together. I don't like the super young. Like the two is always a hard one for a baby. The patience. Yeah, that would be fun. But like you're three, four, and showing them the showmanship I like. And you can see, because I gave my, I gave little John to my wife. I said, you can do that. We had a we had a child, we had reasons to to do this, but I now want to go back because my why is to put them together and to do that. And I'm gonna lose a lot. I'm gonna go back and get humbled and have all of that happen again. But the why is why you keep coming back. So agreed. Okay. If you're struggling with it, yes, go back to that. Maybe it's a new horse. Yeah. Maybe it's changing your goals. Yeah. Coming up with a different, a different reason to what where your competition takes you and level setting that. And then you'll start to keep coming wanting to come back.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

I think so too. And I think it's hard for people when you're at a certain level and then to start over. And like you said, like the humbling process, like it's hard, you know, to not be at that same level that you were and to start over, and it's like, oh my gosh. But it does, it takes time. Figure out your why and don't quit. So, with that being said, so you didn't quit for your your camp this campaigning focus. Yeah, you just kept going, you kept showing up. Did you feel like that you had to be at certain horror shows? Like to get seen and like come like command the respect from the judges, so to speak?

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah, I I I saw it a little bit differently. Okay. I saw my comp my competitors out there, people that I looked up to and the people that I needed to know. Can I compete against them? Can I am can I be seen similarly to them and in the same light? So not going to horse show was me not being able to level set myself with other competitors out there and kind of see and like kind of keep abreast with what's happening for it. I do like the idea of being seen by lots of different judges. It was not great always getting judged by the same judge over and over and over again. Even if they liked you, like that wasn't a good gauge, right? Of like really it really wasn't. And that also is something that is more self-reflective than saying it's politics. You know, they didn't like me because of politics. No, they didn't like me for some for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Like your style, whatever. They don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah. So it was always good to try to get out there and really understand what that is. A great example of of politics versus style, right? So I went into a class, I think I was like, what, first, first, and like like 10th out of like out of like 12 in the class or something like that. Really, really bad. You gotta thanks for coming. Yeah. Curtis came over to me and he goes, You can't do that with your hand. And I said, And you said, What did I do with my hand? No, I said, I know. I know. He said, but you can't do that. My horse at the time loped and trot. So the way to get through that was to push him down into your hand. Okay. I kind of crank him into my hand. It's not illegal. There's nothing wrong. I didn't do anything wrong, but it's not the right thing to do. It's the same thing as like bumping on your horse or like reprimanding your horse. Right. And so I'd go around on an outside arc. Yeah. And if you were looking at my hand, you could see I'm sitting there schooling him down there, saying, get your back up and get your and trot. Don't loose and like lofty lope out of it. So I was doing it as a training aid while I was trying to be competitive. And so where that is something that I would say maybe eight ten years ago, I would complain, these judges are political, or they didn't reason that, you know, they are not that's not that big of a deal. They can't see that my hand is doing that, blah, blah. They do. They do. They did. Isn't that wild? They totally. And they were right. Yes. They were right. Two of them didn't see it, one did. I was schooling my horse while doing it. Now showing it, but they saw it, you know. And it's just, it's things like that that you just need to kind of like level set with yourself on what you're doing and keep showing up.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

And I think through doing this podcast, I've realized that judges are actually people. Totally. And, you know, as easy as it is to say it's political or they don't like me or they don't like my horse or whatever, a lot of them are horsemen and they can see exactly that that you were training.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

You know, or like I feel like they really are assessing us. Yep. And again, they want us to win. Yep. Right? So he was helping you by telling you that, which I think is cool. And I I I I think that's hard for a lot of us to understand. And I know, like in my 20s and stuff, I was the first one to be like, they're just so political. And you know, it was so easy to say that. But there's a lot more to it.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

I want to say, and I really do love Whitney Walquist. Uh-huh. And she was she was doing great at the time, back in like 2006, 2007, I was really starting. And I I think I went to my first world show and I would say things about politics, and I went and I saw her out there. And I think I went, walked away, said, no, she's really good. She's just really good. Yes. And then other ones that are out there, Angela Fox, just amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Like, like this is not politics. They just really are good. Really that good. Right. And so it took, it took time to self-reflect and say, okay, I want to be political. I want to be politics. Because to me, now politics doesn't mean political, like you're getting something you should. No, it means you're just really good. It means you're really good.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yes. But it takes, okay, so we're in our 40s. I feel like it takes that long to realize that. And I mean, maybe, or generationally, maybe some kids are realizing that more now, but I totally did not until maybe like the last five to ten years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

It definitely took me into my, you know, mid-30s to get humbled enough to realize that it's not that the the term politics maybe isn't the right way to be saying what is going on. Because a lot of these people that that tend to win that you want to say are political, if you just look at them with a different like eye, they're really just very good. They're very good. They're really good. Agreed. And and it's oh you go into the pleasure pen and I know that I couldn't imagine how hard it is to judge the pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Nope, not my idea.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

I ran a pleasure judging contest here.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

No.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Every year I did a like a Calcutta where I gave I I did an Excel spreadsheet where I handed out these little cards and I said, judge the judge the cards.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

I did, I do remember that. You did, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yes, you did. So I think the winner, every year I think the winner took home at least 200 bucks. That's so cool. So they did that, and I had multiple judges come up to me afterwards and say, their clients really respected judging how hard it was trying to judge that class. They've never seen it quite as difficult when they're just trying to and and yeah, they're doing because they want to win money. They want to know who the winner is and who's first. You had to place first through tenth, so it wasn't just that your top three or something. Yeah. It was you had to do, and it was mathematical how right you were with the overall placings at the end that you get paid out for it. So I can't imagine I can't imagine that politics are as rampant as what as what people want to say.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

No, and I I kind of feel like it's the more you show up, the more validated you become as like an exhibitor and a rider. Yep. And I didn't I didn't know if I was gonna say this, but I'm gonna say I think this fits right now. So I, you know, I did that rail horse association class, and I obviously am not a pleasure exhibitor or rider or anything. Like it's not my thing. But I went in and the next day, Angie Canizero came up to me, and she was one of the judges for that class. And I we've never, I mean, maybe we've spoken a little bit, you know, small talk, but not really. And she came up to me and she said, I have to tell you, she said, your presentation in the show, Rena, was amazing. And she said, I really commend you on how well you sat up there and showed that horse. I almost cried because I was and that felt so good because I was like, you know, I was on this green horse. I was like basically faking it till I made it type of situation. But it was cool for me that someone like her, that was her takeaway from what and that's what I was trying to give her. Was that like I was sitting up there showing that to the best of my ability ability. Yeah and man, that meant so much to me.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

And but doesn't that just even like underscore that these judges and these people out there, they just want to see good horsemen and good horses. Yes, and they appreciate it and they like it and they want to reward you when it is. And if you just know that politics will just come and go as it is, yeah, but your goal should be to become political, which just meaning before Can we change it?

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Let's call it, let's call it something else.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Yeah, let's give it a new title. Just be good. Just try to be what you can be that's really good. And guess what? It'll pay off. Yes. It might take a while. You and and the horse matters. Yeah. Like it it does.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Yes. So let's talk about that a little bit. Okay, sure. So even you know, horse prices are wild right now.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Yes, they are.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Okay, they're wild. And I think it's intimidating for some people, but I think if you can find like I think the waiting for and getting getting what you can afford and you know, but getting quality. Yeah. Like you said.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Quality is a big one.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

And then weight. Like, I just think that that's for the majority of us. Yeah. Majority.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

I think that it's amazing how expensive it is just to like grade and feed them.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Also that.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Like just just to get like a two-year-old and uh like just up and operational is a lot more than it's ever has ever been. So that's really it does allow the the prices to go up. I've always been on a budget buying a horse. I've never I've never really had that much luck in like being like, oh, I just had a ton of money to go out and spend. Yeah. So I've always had to do it on a budget. So my advice number one when doing that is trust you and your trainer. Okay. I think I think I I think I was the fastest purchase with Robin Fred in history because I sold Reese and he he's like, I had one on hold for you already. Oh my god. And he didn't even want me to know that he was doing that. But he prepared us. He's like, look, it could take me six months to a year to do this. Fine. He's like, if you want to do this, like it could take me a really long time to do it. Of course I said, how do I speed that up? He says, well, if you doubled your budget, you could, but it doesn't mean that that's gonna be the only one either. Yeah. So like it does, it does you the budget does matter when you're trying to to do this, but it's not the limiting factor or the only factor that that's out there for it. And it took us like eight, eight or nine months to find an Eric's horse. Wow. And we did that as well. So that took us a while, and we had like significantly more budget than what we had when I bought mine for it. So horse prices are expensive. But I think that you can get around it if you are understanding that number one, these horses are expensive just to get on the ground. You gotta you gotta pay for that. I did just I just did one and I bred and he just wasn't gonna work out and that was very expensive to try to get to all that as well. Yeah. So what was your question about more about the prices of horses?

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Like just like waiting. Waiting. Like quality. And like so quality is important. So even okay, so for me, I bought a yearling last year because I can't afford a maid, another maid horse, and my all-around horse is 11. And I was like, okay, so maybe I have like three, I don't know, and I might give him to my daughter also here. So I was like, if I want to do another one, I have to build it.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

So I bought something that I like the bloodlines, I liked its look, and I'm like, we're just gonna wait. And if she becomes the one and she has a great feel, cool. If not, you know, maybe we sell her and we do it again. And like I'm just gonna have to wait.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Just gonna have to wait.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

And it's it sucks.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Yeah, it does. Yeah. And especially with a young horse, because like, well, for me, I'm I'm paranoid that she's gonna get hurt and like that, I you know, then I'm gonna have to really wait and she's gonna have an injury for a year, and I don't know. But I think it is important for people to not have that pressure on themselves of like just buying one, making it work that year, having sick immediate success. Like it I just want them to understand like what we're talking about is that you have to not pay your dues, but also just keep showing up.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

And I'll say something a little controversial. Oh, yes, please. I was talking to Barn May around about it, uh-huh. And they were talking about how it was taking them a while to to come along to come along. And I said to her, I said, I've been there before, like three times, yeah, and it's very easy to look across the aisle at another amateur, another one that has a this three-year-old that is just so amazingly broke and it's doing the trail and it's doing everything. But when I look back and I try to think about where those th that three or four-year-old is, it's not really around. Right.

unknown 46:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

And it's not, it's not. And then I look to my fellow amateurs that I'm competing against in the showmanship, the horsemanship, the the trail, but they're all on horses, and those ones all took them a while to come to come around. Yes. So there's something about when you're looking at the amateur that time and effort and diligence really is what it takes to be that super competitive out there.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

You know, someone that really that I admire for that too is Molly Froman. I remember when she this current horse that she has, when she first started showing him, he was probably like a four-year-old and she did the pleasure for the most part with him. And then I remember when she started the all-around stuff, he was tough. Like it was not easy. And he he was with like every something would happen, like every pattern, I remember. Like it'd be going so great, and then all of a sudden, an explosion. And now, I mean, she's killing it. And but it's been, I don't know, like maybe this is her fifth or sixth year with it. See, and now she's killing it, and like it's so cool because she has such a cool relationship with the horse that they're so in sync and it's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

So it just takes time, yeah. And if you want to be an amateur out there that is doing this and being competitive, like you're just gonna have to accept that it it's gonna take you longer than what you want it to be.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Okay, so what about for somebody who like maybe they're like pretty competitive in the level two right now? Yeah, but they don't have like the time when I mean like off of work and maybe like crazy crazy funds to do like Arizona, the Red Bud, the The Madness, you know, some of like the bigger horse shows. Like, do you think that they could do some local ones to stay sharp and then also maybe like two or three big ones? Like, what do you think that looks like for someone?

SPEAKER_02 47:56

I'm really big on your relationship with whoever you have that's doing it. So if you're doing it yourself, get another pair of eyes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like if that's a spouse, if that's a parent, if that's another competitor, you need somebody that is not mean, just mean, to tell you how why it's all terrible. Yeah. Because there's always those people out there, right? And you don't need somebody that doesn't have an eye to tell you what that is. I do recommend getting some level professional help. If you want to be, if you're saying level two to level three, go and do that. Now, if you do have professional help and you're in with a trainer and you're in a full-time training, like like I am for that. Number one, I would start with your trainer and say, This is what I'm looking to do.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Let's talk it through. Let's talk about the plan for what it is. Could you do it? Absolutely, you could. Could you be at home and do a couple local horse shows and splurge on one of the major horse shows to go ahead and get done? And could you do that and maintain yourself becoming better? Yes. But you're gonna have to be really diligent because I instantly I hate to say it this way, but I instantly got better the moment I stepped in Texas because I got my butt kicked left and right. Yes, I believe that though. Your competition is what makes you get better. That's one of the reasons why I liked going and finding the pockets, specifically in the shamanship, because I need to compete against people that are great. You know, do you think that that without the Olympics, Michael Phelps would have swam that fast? No, because they wouldn't have to. Right. He would never have been able the record records get broke because competition is there to drive you. So I would say that if you are not gonna go out and put yourself amongst that competition to get yourself better, you really need to know how to do it at home with good sets of eyes. Yes. Could you do it? Yes, you totally could. Maybe get on videos, maybe go to the horse shows, go and watch what's happening out there.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Like the warm up and you can learn so much. How about it?

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yes. Yeah. Go, go and make sure that you are as seasoned with your eyes as you possibly can and as honest as you are with where you're at. I love that. Because you won't know where you're doing well or where you're not doing well. Yeah. Without that.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree with that. I think I like I live close to Ohio, so it's good for me to come here and get my ass kicked because like everybody's very good here. Totally. For sure. And there's a lot of numbers. And it's I I mean, I feel like a lot of like you guys from Texas come up and stuff. So like we get like a nice mix of people. It's tough. It is tough. But it sets the tone for the rest of the year, too. It really helps me know where I stand or what I need to work on and and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

So yeah, you're only gonna be as good as your competition, to be honest with you. Yeah. I I mean, I I think that was one of the things about when I went from open shows to level one and trying to be in level one. I learned how to win at an open show, and that was not the way to win at a level one show in order to do it. Like like the tricks and the way that I did it and and my showmanship just was not at the level that it needed to be to step up. And then from level one to level two, I really needed to hone that in. And then again, from level two to level three, I had to do the same thing. Yeah. So you just need to be much more realistic with yourself about what that takes.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

So for it. So, okay, for me, I have been to the world show twice. It's a haul for us, it's very far, okay. So it's not always like a realistic yearly goal. Okay. It's very expensive, all the things, just because of time, honestly. But I have felt in years past when I've gone, it's hard for me to compete at the world show because I'm not on that stage often. And I don't feel the desire to go to it because I feel like it's a sm not that it's a smaller stage, but it kind of is. You know, there's not as many people there. It's smaller, and everybody is very good. They are okay. And I feel like I can't hang for some reason. I have always felt that way. So I just don't go. I don't make it a priority. And, you know, my trainer is always like, no, you need to go, you need to go, you need to go. And I'm like, it's a million dollars, and I feel like I can't hang in that crowd. So I don't even want to put myself, you know, seriously. And he hates that I say this, but I don't want to put myself in that position. I kind of don't. Because I would rather have a better shot at some of these other horror shows, or even I don't know why, but I feel like I have a better shot at the Congress. It's weird, but it's true.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

I think you can definitely hang.

unknown 52:34

Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

But I don't think there's probably a lot of people that are happy that you don't go.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

But that is how I feel. I feel like I, whenever I go, I'm like, like I'm not, I don't know. It's weird. And maybe it's because it's really expensive to me that like in my gut, I'm like, oh my god, this is so much money. And if I don't get something done here, I'm gonna be sick. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yeah, I would say because I've been going to World Show almost every year for like But you live there, right? And live so close. Yeah. But I don't go to the Congress that often. And the Congress can feel similar to you. Isn't that funny? Because I really want to do well at the Congress. Yes. And that one for it.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

You know. Oh, that's funny then. So we have like opposite horse show feelings. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

And then I always dread the NSVA because of the heat, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

It's all same, same. Every year I'm like, I'm not going, I'm not going. I'll be there. I'll be there. I know. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

I had both the the Western, so this year I did very well in the Western riding, which my horse took forever to get a leech on him.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

So it was like bittersweet.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Thank God Robin Fred did the work for it. The funny story is that it took Robin about two years just to get a leech on him, which is unheard of for that long. Yeah. That's like his thing. I totally yeah, I know. And I think two years for him and me, basically. It took about a year for him. And then like three months into it, I'm still not getting it. And I went up to the bar and I said, Robin, like, why can't I do this? And he looked at me and he said, It took me a year. It doesn't take me a year, John. Give a little bit. It's hard. Give yourself a little bit of credit. This is not it's just not easy for it. And that worked. And I think the first time I got it, it was like 20 degrees outside. Robin was in his car, and my horse says he honked the horn. You did it, you did it, you did it, you did it, you did it. But in in the Western riding, and then it carried over into my trail and into my showmanship. I had to get those thoughts out. Don't think that. I know. And and the reason why they I take them the other way. I do it more like I I'm here because I am better than everybody else, even though I don't like right.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

No, I know. That's not like a cocky thing, but you have to mentally prep yourself.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

You have to get yourself and you have to figure out like where you know that like you are are good at. My horse is a terrible jogger, okay? So I go into the I go into the the Western writing. I know he's gonna be a crappy jogger. I have that, I'm not gonna let that play into my head. I'm gonna think, I'm gonna get through this. And then I'm gonna start to show where I know that we are are great at what we can do. I'm not the fastest pivot in my shopmanship. I'm just it takes a lot for me to pivot him. We're very controlled with our legs. He's just not that horse that is like this like super, super big pivoter. Am I gonna let that make me think that I'm not gonna go out there and win? No. No, but I know where we're really good. I know that our walk breakdowns are great. I know that our trots can be great. I know that I can get fantastic stops out of them. Yeah. So I'm I'm playing the card. I think, doesn't Gino say, give me a plus one, give me a plus two, give me a plus three. Yes. Like he's saying, like, play your deck the way that you can play your deck. So I would really say that's the way to go to it. So if you think that, which if you're thinking like, oh no, think like, no, my extended lobe to slow down is fantastic. Right. I want that my pattern. I know how to get a plus three on that horsemanship, or I know that I am fantastic at this in it. And lean into where you are really good. I love that. And and let that be like the way that you go into those pens where you maybe don't feel like you belong.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

That's such a great point because that's true. And I think people feel intimidated about cer uh entering certain arenas, so to speak. Okay. And that is so true to lean into your strengths.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Yeah. Yeah. And and have like a level of confidence and happiness where you know if if you're if you're level two, okay, level one, I I can understand that you're still gonna try to get yourself into it. But once you're in level two, you should know when you did something that was good. You should know that was really good. And if you're trying to go from level two to level three, you should know what is really good that you can do and what you need to work on. And when you go to a horse show, show what you're really good at.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Like do what you are really good at and try to get those points out there and then hide what you are not good at. Or don't let that be let it bring you down, right? Yeah, that's a good point. And don't let that get into your brain and then lean into I'm here because I can do this really well. Not because, and if you don't, and and if you if you're 16th or you don't put it together, you don't put it together, there's a there's there's another year at it, which I always hate that concept because I was like, another year and how much more money. I know, yeah. But I really think that the mental game for that, and then also just knowing that you to get mentally there, that's what campaigning is. Every single horse show, pushing yourself to that level, getting yourself to that level all the time. And there's gonna be people out there that are gonna say, yeah, but like then you'll overuse your horse or you'll peek your horse. I don't think you will.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

No, I don't think so. Okay, so I don't do that. I I in in kind of the way you've been talking about it, I I probably don't show as best as I can every time because I'm not sharp, maybe, but I think about it, I go as hard every time. Like I'm not trying to peek for the Congress now. Like I'm showing this weekend the way I'm gonna show the Congress. And I'm I'm gonna try that hard. I'm gonna present myself the same way, all of that. So I think that's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

And I would say, like, I've seen it now. Robin doesn't talk much about his peaking process, but I've seen it. I've been with I I know exactly how he thinks of it, how he does it for it. And a lot of when we try to peak or get our ourselves ready, I I lean into my trainer quite a bit, or I lean into the training process quite a bit to know what that is for it. Not we could be the horse could be a little bit more at a peak or just in more of a maintenance mode during some shows. Okay. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

I'm not right. Right. I'm stepping up. My mental state, my d pattern execution, what I'm trying to do is at the world show level every time. I agree. Sometimes maybe my horse just isn't. We're just not pushing him as hard, saving his feet, doing different things, maybe not asking asking him to drive as much to it. But my ability and what I'm trying to do is always there.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

That's I love that. I love that. I think that's a really good point for people to understand. And then, okay, my final thought that I want us to talk about because now we've been talking for almost an hour, which is amazing. But you'll edit quite. It's all been so good. Is people holding themselves back. Okay, so I personally hate that people try and stay a level one or level two. Okay, I hate that. So I think for me, some people are like, oh, I'm so sorry you're a level three. And I'm like, what do you mean you're so sorry? Like, I want to be a level three. That's the point. Right. Am I the number one level three? No, but it's pretty cool. I get to hang with some of the best riders in the country. Like, man, that's like the best. And I wish that more people thought of it that way instead of like, oh, I have to compete with the level threes. No, that means you deserve to be with the level threes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

Yeah. So level one, you're always gifted another year. Yeah. Because you get the you get another year championship, right? Right. So you could not be a level one this year, but still be able to go to level one championship. So always know that I would never try to hold back my level one to trying to get into level two. Level two, level three, I wouldn't hold back because why? No, you're good enough. Good enough. Yes. You're totally good enough. And the way that you hold back is to not get points. Yeah. But I still like nationally qualifying. I know. I do too. Still a thing. I do too. Like Erica went to Florida this year and she had a great, great trail go. And I go, you're nationally qualified. And she's like, oh yeah. And like it's always good to know that like you nationally qualified in something. Yes. That is still a thing, at least it is to me to do it. So I wouldn't think to hold yourself back.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

Do you remember when we first started showing? You had to almost get a superior to qualify for the world show. Uh-huh. It was hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

It was, it was, yeah. Yeah. Tell me about it. And I remember because California did not have the numbers when we were. She had to run. We had a run. And then now Barn Mate Paris Rice showed up. And I was like, okay, I'm second in Paris Rice in a class of eight consistently. It was it was always rough for it. But yeah, I I I would say the concept of politics is not politics, it's just being that good. Campaigning to me is showing up like you need to be very competitive every time out for it. And holding yourself back is just you not rising to that level. Yep. And lean into where you're good. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you show us what you're good at. Yeah. If you know that you can do it good. Now don't go and overshow, right? You never want to like, yeah. Not I'm not saying that, but what but and then for those that are at home doing it themselves, eyes are the most important thing. That's important. Yeah. If you you look around, there's there are a lot of, you know, husband, wife, or training teams out there, and they will always comment on that's my eye. Somebody is is watching me and telling me what they can see. If you don't have that in yours, or you don't have that in quality, search for that in quality.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Agreed.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

So if you're if you have two at-home do-it-yourselfers, team up. Yes. Work with each other. Don't be negative Nancy's. No. Don't tell each other what you're doing wrong. No. Like be like, you're really good at this, but here's where you can be a little bit better at. Yes. Yes. Or come out and be like, your back was fantastic. That was great. Yeah. What's up with you moving that pivot foot? You need to go and fit, you know? Fix that. Yeah. Fix that. Like be each other's cheaters, but also learn to have like that critical eye that you can that you can use. Because if you don't have that, you're gonna have great ghosts for you and you're still not gonna do very well and you're gonna get discouraged. You're not gonna know why what you felt was good wasn't being rewarded. Uh-huh. But the I need somebody else needs to talk to you about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

Yes, absolutely. And I think that is a great point for people to stay motivated and to stay wanting to get better. Just keep keep putting yourself out there, keep watching others, keep asking for help. Like you said, if you're on your own, ask somebody, even send them a video. Turn. You know, like be like, can you just watch this? Like, I don't understand why I didn't score better. But nobody's on their own.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

No, you're always at the horse show, right? True. Make friends, talk with people, like like go and and and ask them about it. And like and to do that, nobody's gonna get you in trouble. You're not playing trainer, but but people can help you or just tell you like what they see, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Tino, I when I was at the New Jersey show that I was at earlier this year, it was a smaller local show. There was a girl there I could tell was on her own. I don't know who she was. And there was like I was watching her do showmanship and she was wicked. Like she, it was in there. Like it was I was like, oh man, like who is this girl showing up? And there was one thing I saw about her presentation that I wanted to be like, can I just give you this one little tip? But I didn't want her to think I was like being rude or like whatever. But I knew she was on her own. And I wonder if like I personally would have loved that. I would have loved if somebody was like, hey, can I just give you this like quick little tip? And I would have liked it, but I would be curious if I would have like said something to her, if she would have been offended or if she would have liked it, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

I don't know. I I I don't the show much up to me, like I'm I'm intense about it. Yeah. Cause like I'm also very balanced about it. So I don't think that people understand that when you walk up to a judge, when I walk up to a judge, uh-huh, okay, my horse is trained to auto-set this front feet as I'm stopping.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:41

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

So I stop and he is setting his front foot together. So when I go to pit when I go to set his front feet, his feet, I just have to cluck one back foot forward and that's it. It's a single single foot setup. This is very training. That is a that is a an aspiration. Do I get it all the time? I don't, but it is it is training for it. So it's very balanced. I don't know. People really look at themselves and think, like, am I in control this much? Like, am I doing this? Because to the judge, like it looks like wow, he comes up single step, super fast, everything looks great. I'm getting really big plus points out of it. But in reality, I knew how do I get this done? I was gonna train something that nobody thinks about. It's the same thing. When I go to stop and I do that, when I go and I hard stop, he should be auto-setting his feet in everything that he's doing. Yes. When he finishes his pivot, he auto sets his feet when he does it for it. So technical. Very technical. Yes. But nobody, there are people that are great out there who sometimes are starting to look at this or try they're wanting to see this balance, they're wanting to see that foot control and the shamanship. And again, that's where that eye comes in. Can somebody tell you?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

Well, that's what I feel like. This girl, that's what she needed. Just like a little, like just somebody to say, like, you are almost there. You are almost there.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

Like, but and if you are that person and you and you hear that, don't Take it as a negative.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

No, no, don't, don't. Because really, like, we all just do want to help each other. Like, no, I well, I don't know. Apparently, there's some real mean girls out there, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

I don't know. I can tell you all of these like great level three people are a hoot. They're fun. Yes. They all work really hard. We all struggle with money.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:20

Like we're all trying to do it. Like all of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Everybody is trying to figure out like what to do with it. You know, I I don't don't think that there's You're the only one because you're not. Yeah. We are all up there rolling our eyes at something or trying to figure something else out. Like it it is really a thing. But yeah, I I'm glad I came on here to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

Yes, me too. This is so good. And I hope so many people feel like empowered and like take something away from this and continue to think that they need to keep showing up.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

I mean, I'm a 42-year-old short man that is not wicked thin that just was did well in the showmanship after like a decade of trying to be able to get it done. So there is a light at the end of the tunnel for it. But it's not it's not a linear path, and it's not something that is just somehow earned by money or by just luck. Like it is definitely something that you have to work at and save guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

Hot take right there. There it is. It's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

It's just true. It's true. And if you don't want to hear it, I don't know how successful you are in life because that's kind of how everything is.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

That's life in general. Life in general. Totally. It is. On that note. Thanks, John.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

Thank you for this.