Ep 45- The Quarter Horse Industry's Midlife Crisis- with Crysta Brown

The horse industry has changed dramatically over the last twenty years—but are those changes helping us grow or quietly shrinking our community?

In this episode of Kanter Kulture, Ali sits down with horse trainer, educator, and industry advocate Crysta Brown for an honest conversation about the future of horse showing, the barriers keeping new people out of the sport, and what we can do to make horses more accessible without sacrificing excellence.

Together, they dive into everything from the rise of week-long horse shows and the disappearance of local stepping-stone opportunities to the challenges facing young trainers, the intimidation factor that drives people away, and whether our current system is sustainable long-term.

Crysta shares her thoughts on creating better "on-ramps" into the industry, developing future horsemen and horsewomen, supporting local clubs, and why horse professionals may need to rethink traditional business models. The conversation also explores confidence, imposter syndrome, mentorship, financial realities, and the difficult decisions many exhibitors face when balancing horses with real life.

Whether you're a seasoned competitor, a weekend exhibitor, a trainer, or someone wondering how to get started in the horse world, this episode offers a thoughtful look at where we are—and where we could go next.

Topics discussed:
• Why local horse shows matter
• The disappearing path from beginner to competitor
• Youth programs, 4-H, and industry growth
• Trainer burnout and sustainability
• Building a horse business in today's market
• Confidence, intimidation, and imposter syndrome
• Why mentorship matters
• Accessibility versus exclusivity in horse showing
• Creating better opportunities for newcomers
• The future of the Quarter Horse industry

Because the future of our industry depends on more than great horses—it depends on making sure people have a place in it.

Chapters

00:00 Welcome & Why This Conversation Matters
01:00 Crysta's Viral Post About Horse Shows
03:00 Have We Lost the Stepping Stones?
06:00 Why Horse Showing Feels Out of Reach for Many Families
08:00 Yellowstone, Katie Van Slyke & Public Perception of Horses
10:00 The Missing On-Ramp Into Quarter Horses
12:00 Volunteerism, Local Clubs & Industry Growth
15:00 Intimidation and Why People Quit Showing
16:00 The "Spicy Meatball" Debate About Amateur Divisions
18:00 Young Trainers & The Need for Mentorship
22:00 Confidence, Self-Doubt & Industry Pressure
27:00 Learning to Stop Caring What Others Think
29:00 What Do You Actually Want From Horses?
30:00 Ali's Real-Life Horse Show Dilemma
37:00 Why Professional Opinions Matter
39:00 Trainer Burnout & Why Horse Trainers Don't Charge Enough
42:00 The Business Side Nobody Teaches Horse Trainers
45:00 Marketing, Social Media & Building a Sustainable Business
48:00 Crysta's New Horseman Development Program
50:00 Building Better Pathways for Future Exhibitors
55:00 Final Thoughts on the Future of the Industry

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Sweet. Okay, so there has been so much crazy stuff going on on the internet lately. Internet. I'm such an old lady. Listen to that. The internet. On the socials. And I had seen a post that Krista Brown put up about like the weekend horse shows and qualifying and like different ways of doing this horse show thing that we all do. So I said, Krista, we need to talk. We need to talk this out. So here, welcome to Kinter Culture. I've been on your podcast. Now you're on mine.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. Cool, me too.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Because we have so much to talk about because I, you know, the horse show world has changed, I feel like, so much in the last like I don't know, like 20 plus years. And I feel like it's getting really small. And it's that that makes me so sad. And okay, so your post, explain to us what you posted. And then I kind of want to like, I was looking at it again today just to get some ideas on where we can go. But give us like a little rundown of what you posted.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Okay. I'm not gonna lie, you might remember it better than me. I really was like just putting my thoughts out in the universe. But yeah, I truly think about our sport and how to better our sport and like what we can do to kind of further this thing all the time. Like those thoughts are always running through my head. And so what I kind of wanted to put out in the universe, like I feel like sometimes our industry can be very quick to criticize the things that are not awesome. But I have like a personal hope for the world that we can talk more about what we can do to fix it than we talk about what's wrong and what we hate. So my hope was really to just kind of put out in the world an idea of like, okay, we see this problem, like we see this issue. And something I get really hyper focused on and concerned about is on-ramps that help people get from that first touch point with like a quarter horse or just showing or horsemanship, like whatever it is, that first moment of that's kind of cool, to how do they get to their first quarter horse show? And I think we've really lost some of those on-ramp opportunities. And I think as showing has gotten so much more competitive, like the horses have gotten more expensive, which like those are good things. Like ultimately, that's because our horse flesh is amazing. That's because our competitors have gotten crazy competitive, but that makes it farther and farther, farther out of reach. So I think we need to be more thoughtful about how do we on-ramp somebody into that first step. So my idea in that specific post is I was like, maybe qualifying, right? And I'm not even necessarily talking about like the world show, but maybe we should have like a step-up system where it was like you have to show it your like one judge show, and then you can, you know, if you get top five, then you get to go show it a like bigger show, you know, like if there was some sort of like step-up system, and I'm not saying that's a perfect solution, but it just kind of crossed my mind, like maybe that would because you look at the comments on that video, so many people said things like, Yeah, but the trainers won't come to the weekend show. And I was like, I know. Well, right, that's why I was like thinking of this idea, because then like you gotta, right.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

So yeah. I agree. And I I somebody has said too like uh like how Yusef does it, and they have like A shows, B shows, C shows, and then like unrated shows too, that that could be maybe a model that we could employ. So, like, for example, the Sun Circuit would be an A-rated show, right? And then like your weekend horse shows could be like a C or even like an unrated show, or I know we have open shows, so I guess those would be unrated, but right, you're right, there's no stepping stone. So actually, I just got back last night from a local horse show that I took my daughter to. It's still going on, but we had to come home early, anyways. But so, but the show still was from Wednesday to Sunday. That's a really long horse show.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

So people families can commit to that. They can't just be honest, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Right. I'm lucky because A, I have my own truck and trailer, I keep my horses at home. My job is flexible, but when I had a corporate job, not a chance, not a chance. My PTO, and I had a lot of PTO, was at the Congress and maybe one big circuit. And if I want to go to Florida, forget it. Right, not a chance, like I couldn't do it. So, yeah, how do you convince a family? Say they have more than one child, okay, to take the one child that wants to show horses to multiple horse shows from Wednesday to Sunday, and they leave the rest of the family at home. Like it is, it's hard to convince someone that that's a great idea. Like, yeah, like what maybe I wonder what the percentage is of these kids too that go on to ride in college and get like full rides, because I bet it's like 20%, if that, right? Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

So like you're it's really for our joy. Like we can't really kid ourselves that this is for anything other than our joy. And so it's like, how can I justify like okay, I'm a professional, so like I'm kind of in a different world, but I really empathize and I'm in an interesting position. So, like originally from California, now I'm in Northern Ireland for the uninitiated, but now I'm exposed to a different culture and how a different culture does horses. And we there was like kind of an established Western community here, but like very small. So most of the people I encounter have never touched a quarter, so they don't know what one looks like. Like that that's completely new to them. The fact that they come in 17-hand versions and 14-hand versions, they're like, what? You know, so like we're really at the grassroots when we're talking to people locally here. So I'm kind of constantly encountering this conversation of like, hey, like come into our world, this is what it looks like. And they're like, Yeah, but I have like kids at home. Like I can't, and for them, so like the show jumping here locally in Northern Ireland. Imagine this. You go to the show jumping, you take your horse in your little horse box, you know, you load up the one horse on the trailer, you get there, you unload off the trailer, you had a go time. So you show up 30 minutes before the class, you prep, you show your one class, you load the horse back up, and you go home.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

You go home.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

You sleep in your own bed. That's what their world looks like. And then I want to sit here and be like, so actually, for us to show, we're gonna have to get out get all the horses together, put them on a ferry, on the lorry, then we go over to Germany, then we show for like a week in a row, and then you come back and it's gonna cost you like seven grand. I know that it's when they could go show at their local show jumping for 15 bucks. Like I know it's just not reasonable.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

It's not. And you know, as a teenager, I did eventing and it was the same, you know, you had your time. So, or or and like we would do like dressage schooling shows and stuff too. So you got your time, took the horse, you did your time, you went home. And it is again, it's hard to convince someone. And you know, it's actually funny what you said about like the different types of quarter horses. Yeah, I recently put up a post and it was like satirical is funny, but it of course it turned into a Western pleasure hating moment. Of course, yeah. But it is wild, even my husband, who he showed like showed he competed in roping, like team roping and stuff. He didn't show he's not into it, but he was explaining to me, he's like, you know, previously I didn't understand that there were different types of quarter horses, like some that jumped, some that did the pleasure, some that and I think that is even hard for people to understand, you know. Like that quarter horses can do so much.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

There's such an education piece. And when we think about like that on ramp, and we think about like what are the barriers to entry that help you go from like I'm gonna be honest, like a lot of what we encountered. So we just did an outreach event with Stockhorse Ireland where like God bless us, we loaded up my yearling double registered gelding and like brought him out to a local county show. I did like a groundwork demo demo, and I kind of like talked about setting a young horse up for success, like the things that I would do, because it's not really like that here. Like most people just kind of like chuck the horse out in the field and then pull it out when it's four and like jump on. And I'm like, hey, another way exists. Like, what if you pulled something from our community? And then we kind of like tied him to the trailer, let people come up, chat with us, you know, talk about the club, talk about you know what this horse is. Like, why does he have a big butt? Like all of that stuff. And it's so amazing. I mean, the number one thing, oh, you guys do Western. Oh, I watch Katie Van Syck's videos, and it was like a touch point, but then I was like, okay, so they already have this in their brain of like this is something cool. A quarter horse is cool. So now we just need to develop them into somebody that like has a path. So it was that, it was Heartland, or it was Yellowstone. Oh my gosh, yes, right, which is funny to me because I was like, Oh, I actually like I I don't watch Heartland, I don't watch Yellowstone, but like, I'm so glad you think we're cool.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah, for sure. And but you're right, there's no entry level, right? And even okay, so next week my daughter is going to do pony camp, and obviously she knows about quarter horses just because I do it, but the pony camp is such a great gateway for kids to try out horses, so you know they get to learn how to groom them and like just be around them and safety and the parts of the horse, the tacking up and all that kind of stuff. So a lot of those kids, like and the woman who does it here, it's like she does it so well. She has teachers that run the program, so it's very structured and right, you know, but there will be like 20 kids in this weeklong program, and the majority of them will then sign up for lessons if they aren't already in the program. But that is more of a Hunt Seat Youssef program. And it's really a shame that we don't have that in the stock breed world.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

But I I I see a lot of that as I think as we've gotten more global, we've forgotten how to be local. Yeah. And I I hate to put more responsibility on clubs because like I get it. Like we are we're relying on volunteers. It's hard, like, so everything I'm saying, like please take with a grain of salt, of like I understand everybody is trying their best. Yeah. But I would just like to suggest, I really think if our local clubs were able to take on more of a responsibility of the outreach, I think that would have a lot of power. But then we need to give them something because something we've experienced is like we have people from like the show jumping, the like working hunter that kind of go, like, I will want to do something else. Like maybe my horse doesn't want really want to do the jump. I I'm feeling nervous about it. I kind of want to try something new. And we've found English versatility is really interesting to them, the hunter hack is really interesting to them. And, you know, we kind of operate as an all-breed platform because it's not realistic for us to hold a quarter horse only thing right now. We don't even have enough on the island to hold a horse show. So we're like, you know, we're kind of working with what we've got. So we're like, no, come as you are, like just come play in our pen and develop. But the horse doesn't have the fundamentals to do a haunch turn or a side pass. Like they've never installed those buttons. So we kind of need that more of a development of that person. Yeah. So I don't know if you saw the post today. It's interesting how like things end up being kind of timely, but they were talking about the like 4-H is no longer an on-ramp into the quarter horse world. I thought it was interesting. Again, I didn't feel like I necessarily saw a solution like to it. I just feel like she was kind of pointing out like maybe we have this problem we should address. But it felt similar in vibe to me. Like I felt like, oh, she's trying to acknowledge that like we've lost this connection point.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Totally. And even I was gonna say, like, even like for each, there was a lot of like volunteer, right? So yes, and that's the thing. Like what you're saying with the local clubs, is it's hard to find people that want to do that, you know, and want to volunteer and want to help and give their time for free. Because I mean, let's be honest, everything is expensive. So to go hang out at a horse show for free is tough. But we do need those people that want to support the programs and make them bigger, make them better. Are you on any like boards for like local affiliates?

SPEAKER_02 12:19

So I'm on the Stockworks Ireland board. We are unaffiliated. That's what makes sense for us right now. We I'm in touch with AQHA International a lot. We run, so we use the educational marketplace grants that are available to international to basically through the a the funding that AQHA has, we are able to bring clinicians over. So we're gonna do a Nancy Wright masterclass later this year in like September time. And we kind of learned, so last year we used the grant to bring over Marty Simper and do kind of like a ranch writing clinic. Yeah, what we learned is a lot of people were counting themselves out from even clinicking because they were like, I don't want to embarrass myself. So I went, okay, so for our area, we need to learn from this. And we go, like, cool. They all, everybody who went was like, This was cool. He gave great information. My smartest move was I mic'd him up, which was great because it catered more to our spectators, which we had we had much more spectators than we had riders and exhibitors, and the riders that we had really needed to borrow horses, so that was a tough thing for us to learn from and go, Well, what do we do then? So this time we're gonna structure it more as a like come and see event. So Nancy is like really, really good at giving information and explaining things, and she's such a to the positive judge, like she is looking for the thing to give you credit for. So I'm really excited to have her come out and we're doing, I believe, ranch riding, horsemanship, equitation, and the English versatility.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

And so we're gonna have like first, like I'm gonna go out on a horse and just have her kind of like use me as a rider to kind of show whatever she wants to demo while she talks through what this class is and what she's looking for. Like, what is a ranch rider? What is an equitation horse? Because if you've never experienced it in your life, someone has to explain that to you.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

And then we're gonna bring out two or three riders per pattern. And I'm hoping to have like a youth kid, a non-cord horse, and then maybe an amateur on like a like appropriate breed horse to do the pattern and like get feedback from her so people can see real time. Oh, that's what needs to be improved about that, and also hopefully see themselves in one of those riders and go, I think I could do that. Yes. So that's something that we're kind of doing as like an outreach event um to kind of maybe get some things going, get some things, yeah. So not currently on any boards other than that. I have to be very mindful of my volunteer time at this point in my life because I get it.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I know, I know, I know. And that's I so I hate the intimidation factor because I do hear that from a lot of people. And you know, like I read all this stuff like in the amateur group on Facebook, and people saying, like, well, I just don't want to go anymore. Like I feel intimidated, or I'm not good enough, or my horse is I can't, you know, I can't afford to be that person. And that like breaks my heart. And that's like the whole reason why I wanted to do this podcast and I do the social media stuff I do, is because I don't want people to quit. Like I hate that. So I wish that there was like a space for, and I'm sure that affects like youth writers and amateurs, and honestly, trainers too, because right, there's a place in this world for all of us, for every single level of writer, trainer, exhibitor, everything. So yeah, I'm wondering if like the way you're saying like different levels of horse shows would be a way to do it. So you also were talking about this is like your controversial thing, right? Oh god, yeah, is getting rid of the amateur division and just making it like 18 and this is my spicy meatball. Yes, okay, yeah, I can totally see your side of it for sure, and I can see other people's, you know, they're they're they're like, I totally understand why people disagree with me.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Absolutely. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

But there's a lot, okay. So someone like me, I'm a level three amateur. And some people are like, oh, I'm so sorry, you're a level three amateur. And I'm like, no, like I worked hard to get to that. So like that's the point, right? To move up. You nailed that good for you. Right, yeah, yeah. Some people are like, oh, that sucks, you know. Yeah, but I wish more people had that outlook and they wanted to progress. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

So, okay, here's my thought process. I see a few different problems in our industry. One, not a lot of young trainers coming up to replace those retiring. That's a concern I have considering in the US, the sport has become very reliant on horse trainers. It's not so much that way in other parts of the world, but in the US, this is like a put your horse with a trainer sport. That's what it's become. It doesn't have to stay that way, but that's what it's become. Well, if you don't have trainers replacing those trainers, what happens to all these people that want their horse in training? Like that doesn't work. Right. So I'm concerned about that, and I wonder, well, what's counting them out? And one of the things I think about is like, well, okay, so my story, like, I was a poor kid. Poor, poor, poor, but I was obsessed with horses. And I had a family friend who had horses, and we would like, I would, you know, I would like take the train up to like Redding, California, and I would ride horses at her house like all of spring break, and then I'd take the train back to like that's what horses looked like for me. But my grandma like bought me a package of lessons at a barn when I was a kid and it was local, but happened to be a paint horse barn. And that changed the trajectory of my life. Like now, this is what I do, this is what I love, you know. And when we didn't have the money, like I found ways to afford it. Like, literally, my like moment of starting to work in the industry is I really wanted a riding lesson. I didn't have the money, and so, but I was like, I just like I have to ride, I have to figure it out. I looked around my house under couch cushions for quarters and I found about $25 worth of quarters, and I had booked a lesson, and I was like, okay, well, I'll bike over there. So I biked across town. Like, this is not a short bike. And it's like up this like super steep hill, Diana Avenue. If you're in Morgan Hill, it's really it was legit. Yeah. I had to get off my bike at one point to walk it, and I took my bag of quarters to my trainer and I was like, Can I please have my lesson? And she and I said, I babysit like come this coming Friday, so I can give you the rest on Friday because like a $40 lesson. Anyway, and she was like, Absolutely. But then she was like, Why don't you come and like clean a few stalls and then I'll give you your lesson and and then it was like cleaning stalls to some lunging to some and here we are. So like I I want to put out in the world, like I understand not having the means to do this, but uh when I'm sitting here thinking, like, okay, a me, if you're a me and you want to come into this sport, I had to straight out of youth go into open. It I had my butt kicked for years. And like, who wants to put their horse in training with you and give you a chance when you're seventh?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

And granted, I had a lot of things to learn, like I had development to do, but I don't think I'm the only young person that feels that way where it's like it's hard to get around somebody who's got four years of experience on you.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Absolutely. And I think, you know what I'm noticing though, too, is some of these younger trainers. I have asked them, who's your mentor? And they're like, I don't know, I don't really have one. That also, I don't, I don't love that. Okay. Um and I know that's like that nice of me to say, but I don't I don't I don't love that because I wish that they had a mentor that was like, no, you can do it. You should do this. Here, you know, here's a couple steps. This is like, I'm always here for you, I'm gonna support you. I wish they had like that, not just a friend, not a friend. I have a support team, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Like I have a panel that I have to consult anytime I'm like worried or like I don't know if I could do this or whatever. Like I consult the panel.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Now, do you have is your panel kind of like uh like people the same age as you and then some older, or is it like a mix?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

It's mostly men over 60, which is like weird for me. Yeah, but that's also really cool. Men like once they reach a certain like I really don't enjoy like once they hit like you know, 15, men start to annoy me, and then they cross back over into that like 60 plus, and I'm like, I love you.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

You're so cool.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

I know.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

I'll tell you, I have access to Pierre Brier, and you know, he's like a really well-known judge and trainer and all this stuff. And he, I could just sit and talk to him for hours because you know, he falls into that men over 60 bracket, but he has so much experience and it's so cool. Like, like I wish more younger trainers had a mentor like him, and they could call and be like, all right, like maybe not so much training advice, but just like life and oh yeah, life experience, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Even just I I feel very privileged because the way my life works, when I go back to the States for a horse show, I'm working for somebody. And because I'm not even in the same country, I'm no threat to anybody. I'm not taking your clients, like I'm not so I do think I have a really unique position where there's no like there's no need to be scared of me. Yeah, I'm not hurting anybody, I'm catch riding, like I'm you know, I can be everybody's friend, but I do think there's maybe it would be amazing to me if some of the old guard would take on a little bit of responsibility of like reaching across the aisle. Yeah, that's true. I think some of us need that. I think when we speak about intimidation. It can be intimidating to be the trainer out there and you're like, I'm not even sure if I'm doing this right. Like, I don't know if I look dumb, but I think this feels good. I think this feels right. And if somebody was to say, I mean, again, I think I'm I feel very lucky because I've had those people in my life who've gone like, hey, a horse looks pretty good, or I like that you're doing this. Why don't you try this also? And it starts that conversation. But what I would say in our responsibility as kind of those wanting to get better is I'm pretty intentional of like, if I want to learn something from somebody, I just bother them and I force them to love me. I just like start giving them updates on my life unpromped until they're like, I guess I'm your friend.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

I don't know, right? Oh my gosh. I love that, but that's like, but I think that's a good thing. You know, you have those people. You do. It's really important. And I kind of want to talk about the intimidation thing because it goes, you know, this whole industry, whether it's an exhibitor feeling intimidated at certain horse shows, you know, trainers feeling intimidated about starting their business. I like, how do we combat that? So I am, I'm probably because I'm like delusional. I don't really get intimidated just because I'm like, well, I'm doing the best I can and this is it. So, you know, like but and I'm also I don't know some people are like, don't you like worry what people think? And I'm like, I don't. I don't really like high school was really bad for me, like really bad for me. So I think I just got this like really like tough shield of armor where I'm like, eh, oh well. Like, I don't care if people pick on me or say mean things, like you know, whatever. But as long as I know that like every day I'm trying to do the best I can and trying to be like a good person and whatever, I just keep pushing on and going forward. I love to ask for help too. I could pick everyone's brain. I think you can learn something from everyone. So, like, how do you, as a young trainer, professional, as a young professional, like, what do you do to combat some of that?

SPEAKER_02 24:06

That's a really interesting question for me. Because I I would say I feel very different now than if you'd asked me that question like three or four years ago. Yeah, that I would say there was a time where like my anxiety was crippling, Allie. Like crippling. Like when so, like when I first started working with Karen Qualls, like I very much felt like, oh my gosh, like I am getting these opportunities to show at Vegas. Like I always dreamed of showing at South Point, like seeing those pictures, and like that felt like such a goal to me. But also, I had tried to pay my own way to horse shows, and I knew what those amateurs were investing. And the fact that they were putting me on their horse and letting me show, I was so like, don't mess this up. Like they, this is so much to these people. And I I would like talk myself, I would just beat myself up over every mistake, and I would, I just wouldn't get it shown because my mindset was so negative and so much self-pressure. And like, to be clear, Karen was not putting the pressure on me. It was doing it yourself, it was me. Yeah, I just like so wanted to be everything she hoped I could be and everything she believed I could be, that I then like psyched myself out of being anything and I just sucked for a long time. Yeah, but like I think at some point I just like hit the bottom enough times and people kept giving me opportunities that I was like, well, clearly it doesn't bother them that much.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

We all screw up, everyone screws up, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

And I was like, well, like what if I shifted my mindset from like don't mess up to like make the most of it? Yep. And that was, I think, when it just started to like taking it from a responsibility into an opportunity shifted a lot for me. Like, I have the opportunity to ride this Caliborus that I've never sat on before. I want to make the most of this experience. I get to be at Vegas, I should have fun, like this is an opportunity. And so, like making the most of things that started to shift. But then I think too with the intimidation of other folks, like I really just think I started to get more unapologetic of who I am. And yeah, like I started to get a little bit more of a so what? Right. Cause I think we all have moments where it's like maybe you work for this trainer, or maybe you trained with this trainer, and then you move on, and they're saying bad things about you, and it feels horrible. And you're like, but I really liked you. I just knew it was time to go. And yes, like that can really hurt, and it can feel like a breakup, and it feels like your ex is at the same horse show talking bad about you to your friends, and you're like, This sucks. It does. And that would get in my head. Oh, anything can get in my head though, like just to be clear. But like that was really hard on me too. And then I just started to get into this like, but if they're saying those bad things, like, so what about it? Like, what does that do? What does that change? It doesn't change my performance, it doesn't change what the judge thinks about me, it doesn't change how I feel on this horse right now. And at the end of the day, I am so freaking like amazed that my life is getting paid to like hang out with horses all day. Right. That's what I do for a living. I get to coach people on how to get better with horses, I get to sit on horses and I get to go to horse shows. Six-year-old me could not have dreamed of a better life. I agree. And you know, who cares what Tom, Dick, and Sally have to say?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Absolutely. And you know, I always like consider the source, right? So if it's coming from someone that you don't respect, then like who cares? You know, if like one of your people, one of your mentors or your go-to's is like, hey, Krista, give it a little.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

You're kind of, you know, like people are saying some stuff and like we kind of agree. Then you're like, okay, I need to check myself before I wreck myself.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

But you know, I I've always tried to live by that that if it's not coming from somebody that I respect or I value, then like, you know, onwards.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

I put it as I don't take advice from people that I wouldn't trade lives with.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think so too. And it is something, you know, some people, whether like they're trying to get out, or not that they're trying to get out of the industry, but maybe they're gonna step away for a minute too, and they get worried, like, yeah, but if I come back, it's not gonna be the same. And like, is it like starting over? There will always be horse shows. You can always come back if you need to take a break, whether that's for financial or mental, whatever reason, take a minute, take a deep breath, and come back.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

You know, I I I like I think something, so I do like one of my products that I sell is like a competitive roadmap call. But at one point I had it titled as like a confidential call. And my intention was it, my intention with the product was to kind of offer a space for that. You just need a professional second opinion and you need to know that it's not gonna go anywhere. Like, and it could be any situation. Sometimes it's so small, right? It's just like, well, I kind of think I want to keep this horse, but my trainer thinks I should sell. I just need one more person to weigh in to help me understand if I'm being crazy or I, you know, like and you just need to hear somebody else's voice and somebody to talk you through it. But when I tell you, 90% of those times those calls boil down to me being like, what do you want though? Like, why are you in this? Yeah. What is it that you want? Because once I know what your end goal is, it's your end goal to show at the Congress in top 10. Okay. Once you're clear on that, and I don't care if you think that's unrealistic, I need to just know what you actually want. And then what you're doing right now, does that seem like a reasonable stepping stone to get there?

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Okay, like yes or no. And then it starts to become really simple. But that's just something I notice a lot. Like when we're talking about kind of people, maybe they're sitting at home right now and they're like, I haven't shown in a long time, but like I want to come back, it's fine. Just name what it is you actually want, and then let's build the steps to get you there. Cause it can look a lot of different ways.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Do you want to do a confidential call with me right now? Because I got I have I have a question for you. Okay. Okay. Because I was like, okay, this is so cool. A more people need to know that you do that because I think you would be like flooded with calls. Okay. But all right. So here's my situation. I have my horse, Zeus, who we have placed at the Congress, the world show. He is an incredible animal. Is he the best horse out there? No, but he and I have such an amazing connection that it works. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

I went to the world show one time with him two years ago, and like I said, we got our name called. It was pretty cool. And my horse trainer wants me to go again this year.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

And I said, no, because it's really expensive. I don't have a lot. I I the work I do pays for horse showing. So I don't have a lot of money to horse show. So I have to really pick and choose where I go. And I don't really want to spend, I know this is crazy, and people would be like, you've got to be freaking kidding me, Ellie, but I don't want to spend $15,000 to be 15th. Okay. And I know that sounds like bad, maybe if someone's like, oh my God, be 15th at the world show, like that's a dream. I know. I know. But at the same time, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

When you have limited funds, you have to make really thoughtful choices. Right. And I can work on a budget girl. I'm the quarter girl. Like I can, I got it. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

And I'm just like, what else can I work? Where else can I work? What can I do? Like I just have to work harder and do more.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

But I was talking about this with one of my good friends who also shows and she also has had a budget. And she said, though, she said, Allie, how many more trips around the sun do you have with this horse? You don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

And she said, if you think you're gonna have another trip around the sun with him this year, maybe you should try and save your money and do it. Because who knows? Maybe he's 11. She's like, who knows? Maybe this is the last time. Yeah. Yeah. So if you were talking me through this, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 31:52

What do you think? I mean, the first question that comes to mind for me is like, what brings you the joy out of this? Like, what is it that you seek after? Like, why do you show horses?

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Honestly, well, I'm just obsessed with horses. Like, I I would show any kind of horse anywhere, anytime. My drive with this horse is my connection with him, and he's so fun. Like every time we go in the arena, it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Every time. Yeah. So just initially hearing that, like, you're like, I just love horses and I love showing. Like, well, that doesn't have to happen at the world then. No. Like, okay. So that's like just my first thought. Okay, well, you can enjoy that anywhere and like save a lot of money. Cool. Yeah. Like, do you I mean, what's the push and pull? Like, you sound pretty clear about like, yeah, I don't think that's for me. That's a lot of money. So, like, is it just the fear of like, what if I don't get the opportunity again?

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yeah, I think so. Like, this is this horse is definitely like a once-in-a-lifetime horse for me. Sure. I showed him at The Madness this year, and I had a really, really good horse show. I did. And, you know, we kind of like my trainer and I used that as like a like a forecast. You know, he was like, okay, so you did really well here. And if you can get your name called at the top in this crowd, probably be able to get your name called. You know, like it just kind of like that's where you fit in. And then leaving there, I was like, Yeah, it was really great, but like I don't know. The money thing freaks me out a little bit, you know, and and I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

I mean, for me, the moment I overspend on horses, I start not having fun.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Well, there's that.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Because there's an additional pressure of like, okay, I like I'm sorry, I have a husband and he's not a horse guy. So like I have to make concessions. Like, we are not a family who is going to put everything into horses. We have to have a little balance in life, and that's the life I chose, and I like it. Yes. So I understand that like I am not going to throw everything at horses all the time. Now, when I feel the pinch on something, an additional pressure comes on my back because I know I don't know if I can do this again. And that's not a good mindset for me personally. Yeah. So I what I'm hearing from you is I like I haven't heard you defend going to the world at all.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Well, okay, so here's my other thing is like, you know, we're talking about like being intimidated.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

I'm not intimidated to go to the world show. Okay, I'm not intimidated, but I probably don't have like the personal confidence. Seriously, I know I had a really good horseshoe with the madness, but I and everyone's like, Ellie, shut. But this is true. I am not confident that I'm good enough.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

And it's and it's when you do win, do you feel like an imposter syndrome? Like, yeah, I just got lucky. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

I think so. Because I'm like, or I'm like, it was a fluke. Just that that judge doesn't know what they're talking about. And like it's a fluke. I just I don't know. Because again, like I look at this horse as like just my buddy, like he's not this like top show horse. So I just don't see us as at that level. I just I just don't.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

So I mean, if like you have a a relationship with your trainer where it feels like you can trust him. Oh yeah. And so like as far as the being qualified, like I feel pretty confident, like encouraging you to like lean into that voice in that space. Like, because it's like I've never heard you say, like, oh, I don't know if I can trust his judgment on that. It's like, no, like it feels like your panel. He thinks I'm like, yeah, you can do it. Like they're so that part, I'm like, I think you can lean into maybe some of those voices in that, like when you're feeling too small, like lean into what they say about you. But I feel like as far as this decision, to me, this is again, this is for our joys. Like, I don't really see a huge drive to push yourself to do something that isn't gonna bring you like $15,000 worth of joy.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

I know. Oh God, I know. My husband's like, he's like, you know, we could go to Italy or something.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Like, I I get it. Like when our whole life is horses, it's easy to be like, oh, like 15, like, you know. But it's like when you start to think about, like, you know, my husband and I like bought a new mattress and a couch, and that was like really big for us. I know. We had to, you know, it's like, oh, I kind of needed a new horse, but I was like, but how can I say, like, no, we can't buy a new mattress or couch because I want a horse. It's just it's okay for me that my priority, and I may not reach a certain level in my life because I make those concessions, but I'm comfortable with that because it's my life. Right. So I think for you, it's just figuring out like what about this is bringing you that joy and leaning into that. And all I've heard is you just like showing your horse and doing with him. So do that at the places where it's more financially responsible to you. That seems perfectly reasonable.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

I know, and that's what I think I'm gonna do that here like for the rest of the summer and just kind of like see where I'm at when it comes time to like have to enter and see like if I feel like okay, I gotta go. And you know, the other thing is my daughter's getting more and more into this. I can't afford for her and I to do this at the level I'm doing it at, anyways, forever. So I'm gonna have to pick and choose here soon, anyways.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

So I don't know, maybe maybe that factors in to where you're like, okay, I know I'm on a limited timeline, so I should take the opportunity while I have it. I mean, the truth is like only you know the answer to all those factors, but like that's fair, that seems reasonable.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

That's that is one thing that I'm like, okay, I can invest that one more time, and then like it's on, then we go do things for her, and maybe I have a young horse that you know I bring up and see where that goes. So ah gosh, everybody call Krista. That was good. That was therapy, that was therapeutic. I seriously, then I was like, I think I can't believe more. Like, do you get a lot of calls like that? Do people do it? You know, it comes in waves, interesting enough.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

I honestly, like, I obviously am not in the amateur group, but I feel like one person will like comment it and then I'll get like four in a row. Yes, and then I like won't have any for a week or two. So I think that's kind of how it goes. But no, I just there were times where I felt like I needed that professional opinion and I knew that I could call people. And the truth is, a lot more horse trainers are more approachable, more approachable than people think.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

But maybe because they haven't extended themselves to you before, you feel uncomfortable having that first first like point of connection. And horse trainers like are notoriously horrible to get in touch with, like, just like that's just a part of the deal. And I think it's a sign of good horse trainer. You should be so busy that you don't pick up your phone.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

I know. No, I actually agree with you. I do because if you think about they're managing typically like eight horses, so those are eight employees, right? And then plus the owners, plus the vet, plus the farrier, plus like their own lives. Like, it is insane to manage all of that. Like, I actually think all horse trainers should have a business manager too. I know they probably can't afford it, but I wish that they could because you know, and actually, you said something the other day too that horse trainers don't charge enough. Oh, the people were mad, but it's also true. It's also I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

No, it's true. I'm sorry. I really feel strongly about that. And I actually saw on my post about kind of having a step-up system, somebody said, Isn't this contradictory to what you said about horse trainers getting paid more? And I was like, I don't see it that way. No, I just don't. And I saw some critique of people concerned that I was putting that responsibility on amateurs to pay more. And I was like, no, like I really think that's on us as horse trainers to like evaluate our business model. Yes, and like charge appropriately. And to me, I also think, okay, you're really gonna be able to do it. Okay, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it. So, my personal opinion is like we have a business model where I only get paid when my butt's on a horse. That is the standard of horse training right now. Okay, God forbid I want to have kids. Yeah, no, God forbid I get hurt. Yeah, oh, you can't. God forbid I need a vacation. Like, how do you run a business that is so reliant on your time? Then you're stuck in this like time for money spot. So I I look to kind of you know, within industry, but like different sphere of it. And it's like, okay, what are people doing that's working and is like actually making them successful in the industry? And it's like you look at the natural horseman guys, you look at Clinton Anderson, look at Pat Prelly, they have figured out how to build empires.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

Empires.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Oh, because they're using passive income.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

So now they're giving you the tools, but they make the thing one time. They make the video series, they make the book, they make the one time, and I can give that to you at so much less than full-time training because it doesn't require a ton of my time.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

So to me, that also could make our sport more accessible because when you have something like that, and say you're that DIY amateur at home, and you're just like, I just need a different idea around this piece of showmanship. And you can click into my blog about showmanship and you're like, oh, that's the exercise I needed, right? Yes, yes. And like, let's say maybe that mine aren't behind a paywall, but let's say maybe they were and you paid 10 bucks for that. Now you just gain knowledge for 10 bucks instead of dropping it and training for two months for however many years.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Yeah, let's call it 1500. Yeah, most of them are like around that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

In my opinion, horse trainers making more money is not contradictory to making this sport more accessible. In fact, I think it will make the sport more accessible. Yeah. Because for myself, like I right, I put out tip videos, but really to me, like my little tip videos are a marketing tool to help get you to check out everything else I have. Yes. Right. And yes, I do like so I have the calls, I have the live video lessons where it's basically like a FaceTime call, but we'll use Pivo or whatever they use, and I can give them a lesson through their headphones. So cool. Okay. Well, let's imagine you're an amateur and you're going, I can't spend the like, you know, 1500, 2000 a month to keep my horse in training, but I could spend, you know, it's like 80 bucks a lesson if you subscribe to weekly. I could spend that. That would be within my budget. Okay, well, I'm actually making more money and you're saving money. Right. How is that not more accessible in our industry?

SPEAKER_00 41:55

I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

So to me, that's a change of business model. Now, once I have those lower tier services, the services that take more of my time, which is my ass on a horse, I can now upcharge on that. Absolutely. You have to pay enough to convince me to not do these other things, other things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Because I'm sorry. Because it's like easier. And it's it goes back to like work smarter, not harder.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Right. And I think I heard Clinton Anderson say something one time about like these guys that have like 60 horses in training, and they have like multiple assistants and like so much help, but they're spending so much money, A, taking care of that many horses, renting a facility to hold that many horses, paying all the assistants, they're actually making less money with all these horses. So like the ideal number of horses to have was like, I think he said like eight to twelve or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Yeah, that feels a hundred percent accurate to me because when you something that scares me is how few trainers I talk to know their numbers.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

And yeah, like, okay, when you like are just somebody who's really handy on a horse and like you really learn how to get a horse shown, no part of that like teaches you how to manage your books. No, no part of that teaches you how to manage client communications, no part of that educates you on how to manage employees. And like we expect horse trainers to do everything and they're expecting themselves to do everything. And they can't. If I can give any trainer permission right now, like you don't have to do it all. Like I have a scheduler now, and like I am bad at scheduling because I travel and I forget everything else exists. Like once I'm gone at a horse show, everybody else in my life is gone because we had no idea. And so then I like land and I'm like, oh, I scheduled nothing for myself when I land and I have like no work for three days. Yes. So like I, you know, was able to bring a scheduler on, but like just to I'm gonna be 100% transparent. Like I found somebody that like had those administrative skills. I saw her working really well in the horse club, and it started as a trade. I see she really wanted her horse in training, but it was a stretch for her. I said, Well. Hear me out. Now it's grown beyond that, but that's where it started. And it helped me take one thing off my plate so that I could then grow the other things. I love it. Right. And so I do think you have to, as a business, but nobody's teaching. Like I empathize with the horse trainers because when are you like learning how to kick that thing's hip over and like really get it sexy over a trail pole? And it's like, oh, so when somebody's late to work all the time, here's the appropriate way to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

It's not the same. And so I think when you recognize in yourself something you're not strong in, getting somebody else's help is always worth it, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Absolutely. And that's I'm even thinking about I haven't done it yet. I've started it, but I want to do like a marketing 101 for horse professionals also because they don't know how to market themselves and they're so afraid to put themselves out there. They're like, but what if I don't do it right? Or like, what if, you know, how do I do this? And so same. Like, I want to give them like a resource to be like, here's a quick, quick course. You can figure it out. And then done.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Going back to intimidation, even when I started posting more on social media, I literally called two horse trainer friends and I said, I want to start doing something this way. These are the reasons. I think it's going to help my business, blah, blah, blah. But I don't want it to read as I think I know everything. Yeah, absolutely. And I was really scared that other professionals in the industry were going to be like, what does she know? And that almost stopped me from doing it. Really? Oh, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

The trainers that you called, what did they say? Were they like, no, do it, just do it.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yeah, they were like, don't be dumb. Yeah. Right. And they really encouraged me. They were like, you have to forge your own path. Like everybody's poor. Like, if you can figure out a way to not be poor, like, good for you. Who cares?

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

And so, and I am poor. Like, but like that's not to like, you know. But I'm I you're figuring it out. No, you're figuring out and yeah, like not to complain either. Like, I I'm very happy with the way things are going to me because I actually feel like my life has balance. Feel like I get to enjoy my family life, and I'm also getting to enjoy my horsey life, which is that feels really special. Yes. Right. Like so, yeah, and I don't even remember like why I was talking about any of this, but here we are.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

It's okay. That's what canterculture is all about. We just start all over the place. We have no schedule. We just, you know, no script. People are like, do you write down questions you want to ask people? And I'm like, no, I just talk to them and I just ask them whatever comes to my mind. You know, really, we started this conversation because of your post and you know how to make horse shows better. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

But this is all a part of it to me. It is.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

It comes like full circle, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:40

It's all Well talking about sustainability of this industry. If these horse trainers cannot sustain the type of business that they're running, I'm sorry, I don't see how we continue forward. And again, if say these horse trainers get out of this, because the problem is you get trapped. You get trapped into this place where you're not making enough. So then you take on more horses, but then you don't have enough time. But then you don't have enough time, so you start giving a poor service, then you lose two horses. Then you got to get two more, like absolutely trap. And then they never have the time to work on their marketing. They don't have the time to develop these other places. And like it hurts, and you have to bite the bullet. And it got scary for a few months there. And I just had to make it work. And I found the thing or sold the show clothes or whatever you did. Yeah, like I don't care. Yeah, do what you got to do. But like to me, if you can break out of that spot, you can start to come up with some of these other resources. And I think that would benefit our amateurs and these people coming up as well. It allows me to offer more volunteer time, it allows me to be active in my club. And going back to our original point of like these on ramps and like, okay, maybe qualifying is the way. I don't know. I just I'm I'm trying to come up with what would help support some of these small shows because people need to see competition and have people to play with. Otherwise, it's not fun. Sorry. You know, when I compete against one other person, it's like, well, it feels bad to be second. Right. It does. It does. You know, it's much more fun to play when there's 10 people to play with. You know, so I think it's important that some of those small shows are supported. But so something we're doing with stock course, I'll tell you. Yeah. Um we're coming up with something we're calling the like development program. Okay. And we're kind of modeling it after, like, and when I say this, like, give me a moment, give me a grain of salt, let me cook. Okay. Okay. But like, it's we're kind of modeling after like Pony Club, the United States Pony Club. I like that. And the idea is you're going to be rewarded based off of your development as a horseman. Right. And it kind of follows you through stages of never touched a horse to doing pieces of a pattern, being able to string two or three maneuvers together, to now you're able to score a 70 in your class, and then you're done. You've completed, now you're kind of ready to go be a showman. This is cool. Yeah. So we've we put a lot of thought and effort into it. I did have like some phone calls with like amazing friends who just like donated their time to like talk with me through. And we tried to solve the problem of what do we do about that horse crazy adult, kid, whoever, who's like, I really love this and I really like quarters, I like paints, I like Appaloosas, but I can't afford the horse right now. Well, we created the judging track. So you go through the foundation level. Everybody has to do the foundation level. So you all have the same basis, and really foundation is to set up a basis of safety and understand how to keep a horse safe. Okay. So once you've gone through that, then you get to pick a track. Do you want to do the judging track? Cool. Do you want to do the ranch track? Do you want to do the Western performance track or the English performance track?

SPEAKER_00 49:41

This is so cool.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Yeah. So then they can kind of go through these levels and then they basically you can self-study. It's kind of like a homeschool program, right? So you get to go away, right? And you know, okay, so I'm studying for my development one test. So I know, and I can't remember off the top of my head, I know that I need to have a quarter turn that's correct. Okay. In order for it to pass my next test. And I need to understand how to correctly set up a horsemanship course. So something on your test might be you have to draw a horsemanship pattern. Yeah. Right. And show us that you understand what it is, right? They might be some pieces like that. So you go home, you study, and maybe you go, I need to go take a lesson with the trainer because I'm not understanding how to develop that bit of a pivot. And then you come back and then you have your test. And it's either a pass-fail system.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

And yeah, like uh, so you earn patches, but it goes on a jacket. Cool. So my hope is like you get to kind of proudly wear, like, oh, I've passed my performance too. So, you know. Yeah, I get to wear this cool, yes. That's really neat. So that's our hope. And so we're really hoping that that becomes, and by the way, I hope we get to spread this type of system into more of our American clubs because I do think it's needed. Yeah. And like we're gonna learn as we go and kind of figure it out. But like we're gonna utilize our local trainers and professionals as assessors. Cool. So that now they're getting sent new people. And maybe you didn't fail, you failed, but maybe that trainer can sit there and say, Can I help you with that? And they encourage you. And then you go, you know, could I come back for a lesson? And then it just probably gets people in this thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Yep, yep. I love that. We're not even really excited about it. Yeah, I love it. I think that's a really cool idea. I know being on committees with AQHA that we have talked about different ways to make people feel incentivized to do more move up levels and stuff. And like, even something like that would be really cool. It would be cool here in the United States to, you know, like I love that. Like somebody who's never touched a horse, and then they can pick like a path to go on. And yeah, that's really very cool. Okay, so one more thing that I want us to like kind of touch on, we don't have to go like crazy about it, but you know, getting people involved and getting people interested. What do you think about leasing?

SPEAKER_02 51:54

I think it's a great tool. I mean, so like when I was young horse trainer, I would teach a lot of lessons, and I do feel like it's a turning the water on on the frog type of situation, right? Like you gotta kind of slowly warm people up to this situation. Right. And I think, especially when I had a lot of youth kids, when you can say to parents, like, well, you don't have to commit to the horse yet. Like, let's see if Susie is gonna stick with this thing, let's lease this horse. I think that's awesome. So I think that's really necessary as a stepping stone.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

I do too. And, you know, there's been like some controversy in the AQHA world about the leasing. Yeah, that the leasing is getting out of control. And, you know, it's like, and I'm just saying, you know, I think me personally, I've done it before. Okay, whether I had a horse that was dying or, you know, in rehab or that had died or was in rehab, and somebody was like, hey, I have this one that's like not being shown. We'd love to not have it on our bill right now if you want to show it while, you know, you're looking for another one or or whatever, I have done it. But there's also other situations where they're putting like top amateurs on horses just to get them sold. So and I remember, I don't know if it was last year or the year before at the Congress, like a horse changed ownership at the Congress so that an amateur could show it. And then like a couple, like literally the next day, somebody else showed it. And people are upset about that, you know, because it's like giving opportunities to people like that maybe like others wouldn't have those opportunities, you know. So there's this like weird, how do we figure out? Like, because for me, I agree with you about the leasing. I think it's a great way to get somebody into our world without committing to, you know, let's be real, a $30,000 to $50,000 horse, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

And I know like which is a steep startup fee, steep startup fee, which yeah, yes, plus outfits, plus tech, like all the things. So, like, hey, come try it, you know. I know in the Morgan and saddlebred maybe world, they do what's called academy, and like the horse, you don't have to have the outfits, you don't have to have the tech, and you get to just like try it on a lesson horse, which I think is pretty cool. That's great. So I'm wondering if we do like in AQHA, like an amateur owner division, where and I know people would still like break the rules, but do we do it that way? Like have you have to have owned the horse? I don't know. I don't know how to like make this better for people, but I feel like the leasing could almost push out the middleman a little.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Okay, but going back to what we talked about earlier, you know what I think would fix that? A leveled 18 and over system. I know. Look at that. Okay, look at that. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But like, hear me, you guys gotta hear me down here. I know it's crazy. I know it's a lot. I know it's like, oh my god, change in our industry. I get it. But it works in the show jumping, in the dressage. There are so many other places where this works and the amateur system is not normal. And you sit here, and so many people are like, well, let the amateurs teach lessons. You know what would take that problem away? Why does amateur mean that you're at a different skill level than me? Allie, you're probably better at the Western riding than me, but because I got paid for some lessons, like I'm a professional and I have to show with like all these other people. Like, I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Well, and that's a great point because I know there's people who like taught a couple up-down lessons at some point in their life. Yes. Now they can't get bumped out. Yep. And they're like, I really would like to be an amateur, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

Hear me out. Like, we're talking about these on ramps, and it's like all of these lesson programs have disappeared because that amateur card is too valuable.

SPEAKER_03 55:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Like, why would I want to go play with the big boys when I can play here? And I'm sorry, most of the amateurs are pretty dang talented these days and could hold their own. For sure, just a lot of the professionals. I agree with that. Yeah, I do too. I just think we need to think creatively. And it's okay if my answer isn't the answer, but I would like to try to put some like maybe we need to go the other direction. Like, we've got all these issues with amateur, and like, well, why can't amateurs get sponsorships? Why can't amateurs get all of these things? Take the amateur label off of it. Like, yeah, not receiving new, not receiving remuneration to me is not a helpful metric to understand someone's skill level. Whereas if we went 18 and over, we could do like five levels. Yeah. We could like really split it up. And like, so you're still giving that opportunity. There could be 10 levels. I mean, in dressage, there's a million different levels you can test at. Absolutely. And they've got so much participation because of that. But I think this amateur open thing is really adding more challenge than we need.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

So wait, in dressage, what do okay? So I mean, I haven't done it for a really, really long time. So they're divided like you just show at a level.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

They don't have an open and an So you're showing to the level of test that you want to show you.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

One, two, that it goes like pre-Sage George's Grand Prix, like all the things. Yeah. So, but there's not, is there like an award for an amateur versus like a trainer professional?

SPEAKER_02 57:03

I I'm not the right resource for that. I don't have to look into that. But what I would think in my head is okay, so something I really like the idea of is show together reward separately. Yes, like recognizably. Okay, even when we talk about, okay, so you know, I'm I'm really involved with the paint world. I understand Appaloosa is also struggling with numbers, right? Our big quarter shows are not struggling for numbers, but our small quarter shows are struggling for numbers. And I understand we all want an opportunity to get a prize and we don't want to feel like we have no shot. That discourages participation. We don't want that.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

But let's say everybody showed the horsemanship together and you were in there with 200 entries.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

But we recognize youth, we recognize masters, and we recognize amateur. Yeah. But you're all placed together. So you actually some of those masters are going to end up in that top five. I know because they're freaking good. I was top five out of all 200. Yes. Right. But when we completely separate ourselves, you don't get the opportunity to see that. And like you look at barrels. Yeah. Barrels doesn't have open and amateur. That's true. They maybe have youth. That's true. Yeah. But then it's separated by a D system. Like we we're not reinventing the wheel. Like this works in a lot of other sports. It does. So I think recognizing people's achievements in these kind of different divisions, that makes a lot of sense to me. Yes. But having them show separately and be pointed separately does not make a lot of sense to me. I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Because and I personally, like I okay, like how crazy would it be for me to show horsemanship against like Carly Parks? Like she's so amazing and so talented and so connected with all of her horses. But again, it would like make me want to be like her. And it would be cool to show with her, honestly. That's a cool perspective. Just throwing ideas out. I like it. It's a hot take, and I do like it. And of course, I, you know, someone's gonna get mad about it, and that's okay. That's what it means. You know, but it's it needs to be a disappearance.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

But you don't have to agree with me. Like it's okay. Yeah, like just because I say things doesn't mean it's the right thing. Like, I just I think it's crazy how it's like, you know, you try to put something out there in the world, people get like so big mad. And I'm like, you're allowed to disagree. Like it's totally valid. Like I'm coming from a very specific set of experiences, but also I'm allowed to share my perspective, and you share your perspective, and then we have like a reasonable, respectful argument back and forth, and then we come out with like the shiniest little diamond, and it's like this is how we grow this thing.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

That's such a cool I like that, and that hopefully, yes, like you're saying, it would be neat to show in a class with like 200 people or a lot of people, at least like 50, you know. Like we are missing out on that so much, even I think it's said our world shows have become very small, and I think that's another part of my reasoning for not wanting to go, is like the desire to compete against just 30 other people. It's like eh, you know. I mean, yes, it's 30 of the best people in the country, don't get me wrong, but it I think it'd be cooler if it was a hundred or more. You know, I do miss that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

I do I think it's more fun to be evaluated amongst a more of a peer group. Yes. Because if you got to say, like, I was sixth out of 200, oh my gosh, that means so much. Whereas when I'm sixth of six, I actually might have scored real close, maybe within two points of first place. But I feel like cock like a loser. There was no like there was nobody to play against.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Absolutely. I think these are all such like great food for thought. I think it's we have to do something. The industry is hopefully I don't, I don't want it to diminish. And, you know, I've been talking, I actually I talked to a horse trainer that has a he was very successful in the pleasure, but he still does a great job, him and his wife together, and they have an amazing breeding program also. And he was just saying that it's a little scary out there right now. And, you know, he's like, I don't know what's gonna happen or what the right answer is or what we're going to do, but I don't know. And I hate to hear that somebody that's been in the industry for so long and has had so much success being like, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Something I will say though is like I so like I got involved in AQH Lead this year, and a part of AQH Lead is like you get grant money to go to quarterbows conventions. So that was my first time at convention this year. And it it's really helped, I think, get more of kind of these young people involved and like at that kind of different level and like sharing perspective because to me, I think it's really important that there's lots of different perspectives in those environments so we can jostle back and forth and I can go, well, have you considered this?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

You know, like that's some networking, yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

But if we don't have, you know, if you've got a certain demographic that goes like I can't take time off work and spend, you know, a grand to just go experience Cordovers convention for my heart. I know, unfortunately. You know, that's you know, you're missing out on those people. But I will say, like, the I've been given now these opportunities to really be around AQHA leadership, be around like we just did on Horse Show Bestie, we talked to like Bill of NSBA. And like I really I want to encourage people that like I really think these people have your best interest at heart. It's just trying to like shake out the right thing. Yeah, you know, and and it takes time, and we don't want to make changes in our sport that are like flip-flop. No, like, oh, one year it's this rule, next year it's the next rule. And so it like it takes that iron sharpening iron, it takes a while to kind of spin these ideas around and have that right thing come out. And I think we've all gotten a little social media e where we want that like immediate instant gratification, yes. And I just think like if you have a different perspective and you're seeing things like come out in the industry where you're going, like, no, they're not seeing it the right way. Like, come share your voice.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

Please, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

That's why you have to volunteer. Yes. Like, if we can't hear from you, then we can't make it better. We can't share your perspective. So I really, really wish more people would get involved in the leadership side. Come share their voice. I understand all of the barriers to entry, but like there really are people. I mean, they set up AQH lead because they saw the problem. They needed more young people involved and they solved the problem. Like there are programs that exist, but it's kind of being gritty enough to go out and find them and find your way to get involved. And like, please, like, take charge of your local club. I get there's probably some politics, probably some of you don't like that's involved. But like, welcome to life, baby. Like, you've got to get along with the real world.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

And that's I think even like with rule changes. I have said to people, like, write the rule change, send it in. Like, you if you want things, Chat GPT, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

It'll help you upload the rule book. It's really helpful. I did two last year.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

What were your rule changes? Did they get accepted? Oh, I just moved to our school.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

I mean, it's kind of a spicy meeting. I don't know if I want to out myself. Oh, did you do it anonymously? Oh, of course. One I kind of came out with. So one rule change proposal I submitted to Paint Horse Association this year was on the sound of like names. Something that I've experienced and multiple people have experienced is there seems to be a lot of subjectivity involved with getting your name approved. Uh-huh. And there's the the rule, well, yeah, the rule states that the name cannot sound like another name. Oh, okay. So I applied for shake and the letter N bake. Okay. Shake and bake didn't exist. Or sorry, shake and bake ridiculous. My bad. Okay, so shake and the letter N bake. But there was in Paint Horse, a shake and bake who was like alive in the 70s, no babies, no show record, nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

And you couldn't have it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

So because of that, they wouldn't let me have it. Even though I found probably 25 different like examples of horses with that exact issue and the name being approved. Rock and roll, rock and roll, and it was approved. So why can't I have mine? So I think there's confusion created in this rule because it's very subjective, and I think it makes the office's life harder. Because now they're dealing with me being grumpy, going like, well, if they can have it, why can't I have it? Whereas a more clear rule I think would make sense. Now, my understanding is that rule came out and I put some like limiters on it. Like I said, okay, you can use a sound-alike name if the horse doesn't have any stored genetic material that if the horse isn't, you know, hasn't been showing for 20 years. You know, like trying to come up with things that meant that you wouldn't be in the show pen together, because I think that would be bad for marketing of our horses. But the problem is like APHA doesn't have record of like horses with genetically stored material. And there's some things that I didn't consider. Okay. So it didn't make it out of committee because of those reasons. But from what I understand, they're kind of like that committee is working on something that would work for this coming year. So we'll see what happens. But that's fine. I got to put an idea in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

My other idea I don't even know if I want to say I'm scared. Essentially, again, okay, right? Like you guys are starting to get it. Like I'm the girl of radical ideas. Like I be coming out of left field. So in APHA, we really have an issue of I don't even know if I want to say it's an issue. There is a lot of participation in the walk dog, and there's not a lot of participation in its like loping equivalent. Okay. And I don't think the solution to like there are some people sandbagging the walk jog, right? Okay, let's just let's just put a name on it. Like there is that happening. But the walk dog needs to exist. Yes. Again, it's an important thing. We need it to exist. So from my perspective, I'm not really big on putting limiters and like counting people out because then it's always unfair to someone. I'm big on providing incentives that incentivize someone to do the right thing. I think that works a lot better. I love it. So okay, but they did not. So it in my head, what I was trying to achieve is I wanted like, you know, the way that like you go to level one championships, like you get a trophy, but it's not the globe. Yeah. So you have to work for that globe, right? Yeah. So that doesn't mean that level one, getting that level one trophy isn't awesome. That's awesome. It just means that you still have something to work for. Yes. So in my head, I was trying to achieve, let's make it so that like amateur club, like when the club gives an award to the amateur division, it has to be of greater value than the equivalent walk jog division. Yes. Okay. And I I made that consistent through the youth. And so that what I was trying to achieve is that something to work for. Yes. Right. I still, you still get rewarded in the walk jog. Hear me on that. I want you to feel rewarded and I want you to stick around with us, but I want there to be something that makes you want more. I should step up.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

Yes. So that's what I was trying to achieve. And unfortunately, when a lot of people read that rule as it is, they felt like what was trying to be achieved was to make walk jog less. And that was not what I was after. So that's that those are my recipes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:28

Well, I submitted one too. And well, I there were it was okay. They had to like figure out how to like make it work. And it was like actually not even that big of a deal. But it was at the Congress, just at the Congress, which is technically just an AQHA weekend horse show that got huge, right? Right. But they run the showmanship in two splits. Okay. So you get drawn, you get a split, you show within each split. They take the top 10 or 15. Oh, I don't remember which one they do. I think it's top 10. They take top 10 from each split, and that's who goes to the finals, right? So this year I was in the second split and I scored, I think it was like a 271 and a half or something, which is like a great, like I had 90s. Okay. Like it was great. Like that was one of my best showmanship goes ever. Okay. Right. And my trainer's like, oh, stick around. Like I was towards the end too. And he's like, stick around, you'll definitely be coming back. I was like, this is amazing. And in the first split, I think a 258 came back for the finals. Okay. I got bumped out at the end because my split was so heavy with good people, which is cool. But so score-wise, I should have been in the top 20, but split, but split-wise, I didn't get called back by a half a point. And I was like, okay, it's still cool. Like I was 11th, but oh my god, I was like, 11th. Oh, oh my god, you know. But I was like, if they would just run this like Western riding like trail based on a score, those top 20 scores, you know, make it till final. So I put that through, and they, I mean, I think it did go through. They just had to like figure out whatever. And then my other one goes back to a little bit. I didn't put this one through, but I started typing it up in chat. You know, I was gonna send it through, and then I put it on the socials and everybody went crazy, also got mad. Oh, yeah, but they do be doing that. And I was like, this, I'm not trying to get people upset, but I wanted them to place a do a 19 to 35 division, a 36 to 49, and people got so angry. And I'm like, I don't want a separate class. I don't. I think respectfully, I was one of your haters. But I was like, I don't, I don't want a separate class. Yeah, you were like, no more classes, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no. Guys, no, right, but I don't want another class, but if anything, I would just like like maybe like a separate recognition or something. See, now you're talking, now I can get on board. And that's and that's exactly it. Like, if we all show together, like that's cool. Like, I don't mind showing competing against the collegiate athletes. That's not it. It's just that I want them to be like, hey, grandma did a good job too. She needs to get a prize.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

You just want the opportunity to be recognized for what you did amongst a more accurate peer group. Yes, oh, that was so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:15

That was so good. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

No, I totally understand that. And it, but that's what I think is disappointing to me about like the current state of our like industry's discourse. Is like, if you disagree with me, like talk to me. You and I can sit here and I can go, I don't know if I agree with that, Allie. And that doesn't mean I don't like you or I think like you're bad at worse showing. Like, that's not what I'm saying. I just don't know about that idea. But let's talk and let's kind of like come up against each other in this until we shake out what the better version of that might be. Yeah. Like, I just I think it's important that we keep having conversations and like disagreeing is not like a threat to your ego. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

You know? Right. Right. Like, let's just talk it out. Let's talk it out. Absolutely. Let's talk it out. Well, on that note, we could wrap it up because we did, we did a lot. We we made some progress here today in an hour. We really did. It was really good. I can't thank you enough for doing this. And like, I know you're like you're in a different time zone than me right now, like a majorly different time zone. So thank you for making this work. And I think keep the conversations going. Keep it going.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

Yeah, no, seriously. Like, thank you so much for having me. Um, it's you know, I podcast all the time, but like it's fun to be the interview. Yeah, right. It is fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

Switch it up a little, maybe. Yeah. Uh we we can definitely do this again. We'll have to touch base again for sure. All right, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

Thank you.