Fortitude: Turning Tragedy into Action
A podcast by the Parent Action Network (PAN), a division of Smart Approaches to Marijuana (SAM), dedicated to amplifying the voices of parents whose lives have been devastated by the harmful effects of marijuana. Each episode features personal interviews with parents sharing their heart-wrenching stories of loss, addiction, and the impact on their families. Through these powerful narratives, PAN aims to educate, inspire, and mobilize listeners to take action against the widespread dangers of marijuana use.
Fortitude: Turning Tragedy into Action
When Marijuana Steals Your Child: A Georgia Mom's Fight Against High-Potency THC
What happens when the "just weed" narrative collides with modern high-potency THC products and a developing teenage brain? Mary's story rips away the comfortable illusions about today's marijuana, revealing the catastrophic aftermath her family continues to navigate.
Mary describes the vibrant life they enjoyed before cannabis entered their world—Halloween costume contests, close sibling relationships, and genuine family connection. Then came the vapes, hidden in plain sight. For two years, her son used undetected, until returning early from summer camp having lost nearly 30 pounds, agitated and isolating. What followed was a parent's nightmare: watching helplessly as cannabis-induced psychosis and addiction took hold of her once-thriving middle child.
The medical system failed them repeatedly. Multiple hospital visits, psychiatric evaluations, and intensive outpatient programs missed or inadequately addressed the devastating impact of high-potency THC on her son's brain. "Nobody told us at that point that if he uses one more time, how detrimental it really is," Mary recalls, her voice heavy with the weight of what might have been prevented. Even more shocking was learning that THC remained in her son's system for a full 93 days after his last use—a testament to how profoundly these products affect the body.
Mary's journey illuminates the critical gaps in our healthcare approach to cannabis use disorders. Rehab facilities claiming "dual diagnosis" capabilities proved woefully unprepared for the complex intersection of addiction and cannabis-induced psychosis. The arbitrary legal boundary of turning eighteen turned treatment into a near-impossibility, as her son could suddenly refuse all medication despite severe ongoing mental health issues.
Through parent support networks, Mary found lifelines of hope and practical strategies. Her advice to other families facing similar battles resonates with hard-won wisdom: "Set healthy boundaries and stick to them... keep filling your loved ones with self-esteem and love."
As more states move toward legalization while potency continues to skyrocket, Mary's testimony stands as both warning and call to action. "It's the biggest regulatory failure of my lifetime," she says, "and my son is paying the price." Whether you're a parent, healthcare provider, or concerned citizen, this episode demands attention to the silent epidemic affecting countless families across America.
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Greetings listeners. This is Chrissy Groenwegen, director of the Parent Action Network for a smart approach to marijuana, dedicated to amplifying the voices of families whose lives have been devastated by the harmful effects of marijuana. I want to thank you all for joining me for another episode. I gave this podcast the title Fortitude, because I could think of no better word to exemplify the brave parents that come forward in the face of grief and adversity to tell their stories, hoping to make a difference and have another family, not experience what they have. Mary, from Georgia, is another parent with an impactful story for us, whereas, again, so many of these stories have a lot of similarities, but then they have their differences, so we're going to get right into it. So thank you, mary, for being with us today.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:And, like I always do, I'd like to talk a little bit about what your life was like before marijuana became a factor in your life.
Speaker 2:Well, I have to harken back a little bit, because we've been battling this battle in earnest for the last two years and, um, we know now that the use has been going on for four years. So if I hearken back to our family life before usage, I have to say it was pretty wonderful when our son came home from rehab and he looked at the family pictures. At one point he turned to me. He goes I really did have a good childhood, didn't I? And I was like, yeah, you know, I always thought so. You know, I made the baby food from scratch. I volunteered at school. The kids were really into Halloween. We won the family Halloween costume contest Not once, but twice. We didn't buy the costumes, we made them.
Speaker 1:Oh, you have to tell us what you were.
Speaker 2:I'm all about that. So one year we won for all the different monster cereals Frankenberry, blueberry, count Chocula and there's five of us in the family, we have three sons, so we bought Yummy Mummy. And there was another one. There was five of us. Oh, I can't remember what the fifth was, because we had Count Chocula, blueberry, frankenberry, yummy Mummy, and then there was a another one. There was five of us. Oh, I can't remember what the fifth was. Did we count Chocula, blueberry, frankie Berry, yummy Mummy? And then there was a fifth one. I'll think of it, it'll come to me.
Speaker 1:There was. You know, I have to tell you though I have to tell you that it is unbelievable that you could even say that, because nobody would believe this but I have a box, an empty box of blueberry in my office because they were my favorite cereals as a child and when I was the executive director at the prevention agency here, prior to my tenure here at SAM, I had that box at work with me because when I was stressed out, I would grab a handful of it and that was like my comfort food. Dressed out, I would grab a handful of it and that was like my comfort food. So I know exactly what you're talking about, Although I bet there's so many people that have no idea what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Target would just bring in some of them back during Halloween there for a while, but I don't even think they did last June.
Speaker 2:No, they absolutely did yes because I wanted to buy it for my grandson, but he's not allowed to have that well, and then the other year our son our oldest son, is a big braves fan and um, they have the tool race, the home depot tool race, and so we were all the tools from the tool race and our youngest one, he fit in the bucket. We just cut the bottom of the bucket out and he fit right into the bucket. We had that screwdriver and that was so cute. Wow, thank you, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I feel like, you know, we were super close and the older two sons are 17 months apart. So, you know, whenever this whole thing went down, my oldest said not only did I, you know, lose a brother, I lost my best friend. So that's, that's hard to deal with. But yeah, we, I felt like we had a very open and close family, you know. And then we had a couple of family tragedies happen.
Speaker 2:My mother died of lymphoma and then I got a very aggressive form of cancer which only had a 17% chance of survival, but I did survive. But as the boys were coming of age, we were focused on my, you know, chemo treatments and eye surgeries and things, and so I think they kind of flew under the radar a little bit, and so I've kind of tried to make my peace with that, although I don't think I've completely made my peace with that. But you know, I think as a parent you feel like your job is to protect them and they can't protect themselves. And I had no idea that this was even happening at first and what I was even protecting them against, right and that's the case for a lot of parents, you know.
Speaker 1:We just didn't know about this product, which somewhat leads me to my next question. So, prior to the incident that brought this issue to light, what were your feelings? You know, aside from the regular parental feelings that we all have, that like yes we don't want our children using drugs. Marijuana is an illicit substance. It's illegal just like other drugs. But what were your feelings about legalization as it was hitting the country?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, my feelings were you can't put the genie back in the bottle, so you might as well tax it and regulate it, tax it and regulate it. Unfortunately, you know, I didn't know how dangerous these things are. You know I had to quickly learn about carts and wax and vapes. You know what they smell like, which ones were nicotine, which ones were high potency THC. What you know which one are combinations. Some of them would be a combination of nicotine and high THC. Where could he get them? What were the laws in our state? Which laws are actually being enforced?
Speaker 2:And addiction which, when you don't see it coming it's ugly and it happens quickly. You know it catches you completely off guard. What you think is good parenting when it comes to addiction is actually not good parenting. You have to learn a whole new set of skills and you have to learn it very quickly. So I just remember going on and on Give your developing brain a chance anytime.
Speaker 2:We caught them, but we only caught them a couple of times before we became aware of the addiction. But that was falling on deaf ears. You know, they definitely look more to their. You know friend groups, you know Right, and they're more for information than they do for their parents. So at that point you know, they tell themselves some completely erroneous information. Oh, it cures your anxiety and it actually makes it worse. They say can't fall asleep at night, Don't smoke Delta, 8. Go right for 10. Things like that and so. But they're not checking with us and maybe they heard of psychosis, but they certainly didn't think that was going to happen to them. It's that all, it's just weed, it's natural, it's got medical benefits. And then, and to their, their defense, when it's all over social media and it's all being marketed that way and the gummies have cartoon sharks on them, that's really hard for a young teen brain to discern, that you know.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:But I have a marketing and advertising background and I feel like we were able to address that in the world of nicotine. Why are we not addressing this in the world um high potency THC? There shouldn't be mango flavor and bubble gum flavor. There shouldn't be cartoon characters. It shouldn't be available in every gas station. You know, it's just. It's just, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 1:It is. Can you tell us a little bit about to backtrack, just a little bit about how you?
Speaker 2:found out that it was a problem. So he went to be a counselor at a Y camp a few hours north of us, at a Y camp a few hours north of us. And he came home a couple of weeks early.
Speaker 2:He told us that he was tired, that it was a hard job and you know he just wanted to rest before school started. When he came back to us he looked terrible. He had lost 25, almost 30 pounds in just a couple of months. Um, he was agitated all the time and angry. He was isolating, um, but he just kept saying he was tired and so we're okay. And then his older brother was going off to college and we thought they were hanging out together and they would leave the house together with friend groups.
Speaker 2:But we came to find out that our middle son was isolating even then and using, and we just didn't know they, the kids, cover for each other. The brothers, being super close in age, would cover for each other. So then school rolls around and we think he's going to school and I get an email from the teacher and he's like he's not handing in his lab work. Well, that's very unlike him. And so we sat him down and he's like okay, let me just stay home one day from school and I'll get all caught up and everything will be okay. And he kept getting up and saying I can't go to school. I can't go to school, not knowing at the time that cognitively, at that point, he couldn't do the schoolwork. And so I was 17 at the time. We're taking him to the children's hospital. They check him out, they give us a behavioral health you know, pamphlet, you know it could be anxiety, could be depression. You know nobody's talking about where I want to use at this point because he's 17. You can't take him to an adult psychiatrist, you have to take him them to a child psychologist psychiatrist and she says I see signs of psychosis, um, here, um, she kind of lectured us on dopamine levels and gave us a non-therapeutic level vilify and said okay, enroll them in this intensive outpatient program for marijuana addiction, which we did. And, um, that proved to be inadequate. Um, but specifically for marijuana addiction, they well, we took them for addiction, for marijuana addiction. But, um, what was a very small program. One of the teens was in there for nicotine addiction, one was in for alcohol addiction, one was for more hardcore drugs. Um, there was another one in there that was coming out of rehab specifically for marijuana. But he's still using um and they kept. They kept him going for maybe two and a half months before they were like we can't handle it. It's that we. It's not working. He needs to go residential.
Speaker 2:Well, he had extenuating circumstances where before he left for camp he had a third concussion where a friend brake checked him His head cracked a windshield of a car and so we had picked out a rehab that was supposedly dual diagnosis because we were seeing some mental illness at that point and we have the addiction to deal with the double-headed monster that it is. And they were insisting that we get a clear MRI before he came and I could get a CT and we did. The CT came back normal, as usually is the case with the CIP kids, but it took me six weeks to get the MRI and of course that didn't show anything and by that time he was promising my husband that he was going to be better by Thanksgiving. Just give him some time, he can figure out. The tragedy of this is at this point. We had taken him to several professionals and seen several people. He's gone to the children's hospital three times. At this point he has done the intensive outpatient program. He's seen the psychiatrist. We saw another psychiatrist. Nobody's telling us this point that if he uses again, how detrimental it really is. One more use could put him deeper and deeper in, and nobody had told us that at that point. And so my husband took up his son, which I understand at his word, and he's like I'll be better by Thanksgiving. Well, continues to use, despite everything that we try and we just didn't have the tools.
Speaker 2:At that point we didn't know what we were dealing with, we didn't know what works, what doesn't work. We're learning, we're catching up, we're reading the books, we're you know, we're trying the best we can. So by December 1st he ends up in a psychiatric hospital um 19 days, um, the insurance is putting the heat on them to push him out. He gets pushed out, they hand him to us with no instructions, no meeting with the doctor, no anything. And I think it was their understanding that he was going to go right to a residential treatment facility um which we had picked out and told them about what we had explained to them in out december 19th, that we were going to try to keep him home until the day after christmas. Then he's going to go on the 26th. It was all paperwork was all done and we arranged he comes home um within a couple of hours he's out, quote, unquote.
Speaker 2:Walking the dog, brings the dog back, goes back out again and starts walking to a vape shop close to our house. His older brother follows him, tackles him on the street. My husband comes and gets them and we're like we just we can't take care of them, we can't keep them safe. He's got to go right now. So the next morning my husband I can't forget this he, you know, we knew he was going to be gone for 90 days. They suggested to get a haircut because they weren't going to cut any hair in those 90 days. So he went and got this military buzz haircut the next morning and then they got in the car and by the time they got to the facility, which came highly recommended. We had been talking to them since October and they were ready for him. It sounded great.
Speaker 2:My husband toured it. It seemed like great, and so we got him up there and they say his psychosis is too bad, they couldn't take him. Go into Asheville, go to the hospital, get clearance and then we'll talk. My husband takes him to the hospital. They say shame on them. He seems fine Because at that point point my son could present well in front of a doctor from for like 45 minutes to an hour. He can no longer do that. He can present well for maybe 15, 20 minutes now, but at that point he could do 45 minutes to an hour. So he presented well, shame on them for not taking them. My husband calls me me like still can't take them.
Speaker 2:So they start driving back and I told my husband I'm like I can't keep them safe. At that point I probably lost 20 pounds. You know, our son had a bout of CHS and so I was trying to keep food in them. I'm washing all the towels from all the hot showers and giving them the insurers trying to take them to get hydrated with IV station, all this stuff. At one point he asked to go to the ER. It's CHS is a whole lot of bad bottle of wax. But so I just told my husband I'm like we just can't take care of him.
Speaker 2:So he kept driving and he took him to a rehab facility in Mississippi which again, they billed as dual diagnosis. But the problem was it was much, much heavier on the addiction end of it than the mental health issue the end of it. So he wasn't really receiving the proper care for the mental health part of it. His psychosis was left so bad and this particular rehab facility, if they have a lot of rules in the family, can't come to visit on the weekend if you get so many points off and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And he was getting points off for falling asleep during the addiction counseling part of it because they had on so many different medications at the same time that he couldn't stay awake. And I kept emailing the nurse and the director and I'm like, listen, you have him on. I've looked up the side effects of all these meds. Five of the six cause severe drowsiness. Yet he's getting points off for not staying awake. Severe drowsiness yet he's getting points off for not staying awake. Like this is not cool, this is not okay. And they kept promising us he'll get better by the end of the 90 days.
Speaker 2:And we pick him up at the end of the 90 days and the addiction is certainly. He's had 90 days to clear out and it took him 93 days before he actually tested THC-free in his system. So the addiction was under control but the mental health aspect of it was still. He was just as you know. The psychosis was just as strong going in as it was going out and he had gained a lot of weight. The medications gained him a lot. He didn't feel very good about himself.
Speaker 2:So he comes home, we engage him in a therapist that was supposed to could be possibly schizophrenia. At this point we have found a good counselor that was part of a local college that specialized in schizophrenia and he was supposed to be able to help. And then he's still 17,. So there was a mental health aspect at the children's hospital that they were just getting up and running and they were administering the medications. They got them off all the ones that the rehab facility put them on and they started the monthly in vegas shot. But to the rehab facility I actually convinced them to start them on it before he left. He had a couple rounds of it before he left. We continued that for four months when he came home and it actually made his symptoms worse. They tried to increase the amount in the shot and it actually made his symptoms worse. So he turns 18 in July and then he decides no more medications, I'm 18. And as the system flicks right when they turn 18, the system flicks Immediately. Like the parents can be involved. The parents can insist, you can get them to help, but as soon as they turn 18, they can say nope, I'm not taking your medicines, I'm not seeing your doctors, I'm not doing any of that. So about four months after he refused all medications he seemed great. We had four good months Now in the time that he came home from rehab. He he came home at the end of March.
Speaker 2:He had his first relapse 420 weekend. I'm not a weed smoker, so I did was not on top of the 420 I left for 20 minutes to go to the grocery store. I mean we pretty much weren't leaving him alone at all at that point and had a friend delivered to the house and we had actually gone to look at the insight program for teens and he kind of liked it and said everybody was nice to him and he liked that. So he was somewhat interested in it. But then he relapsed later in that weekend. And then he had a second relapse about a week after his birthday, july 24th, because he wanted to test it, to test to see what it would do to his brain, and I think that's a very common thing too. And so then he actually has been THC free since then. So July 24th will be a year so far.
Speaker 1:I just want to backtrack very quickly because you said something that really interested me. Did you say that 93 days clean and there was still marijuana in his system up until that 93rd day? And but he was definitely not using over those 90 days? So that's very interesting Cause you know there's always been this. We do know that it's fat soluble and that it does stay in the system longer than most other drugs. You know, um, alcohol metabolizes within 24 hours. I think cocaine is three days, something like that. I don't know much about the others so I'm not even going to pretend to, but I do know that the marijuana has. We've always been told that it's in your system 30 days at least, and that's one of the big arguments being used currently for why people should be able to drive and not get drug tested, because maybe they didn't smoke for a month but it could still be in their system, blah, blah, blah. But to hear you say 90 days clean and it was still showing up says something clearly about the potency of these products for sure.
Speaker 2:And the length of use. You know, we came to realize when he was in rehab that he started at age 15, which we hadn't caught them until the May before he leaves to be a summer camp counselor. So there's two years of use. Because these vapes don't smell like weed, these gummies look like candy, the, you know. And we did find a couple of vapes a couple of times, literally two times, and we did what the usual things parents do. Right, they take the car away. You ground them, give them extra chores. You know, you lecture them on. I remember one point when we do, when we he was in intensive outpatient program when we knew it was full blown addiction. At that point I remember my husband just shaking one of those things and just screaming how much that stuff was like liquid poison, you know. And it's just when you're addicted you can have a chorus of people screaming how awful it is and it doesn't do any good.
Speaker 1:And of course the profile, rhetoric and the marketing of these products doesn't help at all either.
Speaker 2:I also want to ask you about something that you mentioned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you also mentioned that one or two of these facilities was highly recommended. You seem to have gone through quite the gamut, so I just want to go back a little bit and ask you about how you started to find the resources that you needed. Was it doing your own research, as can be the case with many? Was it a connection to someone else who understood? How did you start to find the resources, realizing it was marijuana, and start to look for the right kinds of treatment?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting because in hindsight I don't know that we quote unquote found the right. You know, because we trusted the outpatient program in the beginning. We were very trusting what anybody told us and so we first took him to the outpatient program. They said he's borderline between outpatient program and residential. But we think we can help.
Speaker 2:Well, in hindsight, at that point he should have been residential already. You know what I mean. They should have never said, oh yeah, we'll give it a try, because if they had recognized that it was CIP they would be like he's got to stop all use right now, immediately. We've got to keep them safe. And so that was disheartening. And they're the ones that told us about this facility in North Carolina. And you know my husband and we had done the research about it after they recommended it. And you know my husband's like it was great, he could see how it could work, you know. And you know my husband's like it was great, he could see how it could work, you know. And so you know, and when my husband was driving back, I just so happened to be a friend of mine who knows somebody in Ohio whose son was just sent to this other facility and it's supposed to be. You know, really, for the harder cases it's really effective.
Speaker 2:Now, also, again in hindsight, that rehab facility should have never accepted our son. He needed to get his mental health more in order to be able to do an addiction rehab. We were told that it was dual diagnosis but it really wasn't. It was focused on the addiction and his psychosis was too strong. You put him in a group of teen boys and he's having trouble, he's talking to himself, he can't focus all the signs of psychosis and they're mad that he doesn't want to sit and talk about his feelings in a 12 step meeting, you know. So it's like, in hindsight, he probably should have gone.
Speaker 2:And to the, to the rehab's credit, at the end they recommended Menninger. But when we talked to Menninger, which is a psychiatric hospital in Houston that takes teens because again, we're underage here and so options are very limited and they would take them. It's uber expensive, but your loved one, you'll do what you can take them. It's uber expensive, but your loved one, you'll do what you can. And they made it sound like, well, we would just make sure it's a proper diagnosis. And at that point it was pretty obvious to everyone that he had CIP. So we're like well, we don't need a diagnosis, we need treatment, and so that's why we engaged the children's hospital in our, in our city and everything else, and we thought we had it under control.
Speaker 1:So let me ask let me ask you about that as well. Um, would you say through your whole process that there was ever any one doctor, medical provider, treatment provider that you actually felt got this right and knew that this was CIP and was looking to help with that Anyone at all?
Speaker 2:Not yet. The one at the children's hospital that was just opening up the psychiatric wing of it. He wanted to. He's young, he was learning, he was trying, um. My guess is he knows a lot more now, a year later, um, but he was catching up. You know what I mean. I think the availability and use of the products are ahead of the system for treating these kids.
Speaker 1:I think that's perfectly said and I would tend to agree with you. I think, as you also said, that at this point, agree with you. I think, as you also said, that at this point providers, medical doctors, are beginning to catch up. But I think part of the problem in the earlier years, when psychosis and CUD were really hitting back, like I would say, let's say even 2018-19, let's say right, and we really start seeing increases in these cases, certainly by the early 2020s, right, I think nobody even wanted to accept that this existed, let alone knew. Even if you were an esteemed psychiatrist, you didn't know how to treat this, you know, you didn't know what it was. I think we're continuing to catch up, but I still think medical personnel need way more education, and certainly mental health personnel on how to deal with this, because clearly it's a 50 of the country is dealing with cud and so much of our youth very high increases in youth CUD and CIP rates.
Speaker 2:I wish we wouldn't have taken them to the children's hospital. I wish we would have taken them to the regular ER, because I now knowing what I know now in a major metropolitan area not in the small towns, but in the major metropolitan area the ER docs were seeing more and more of it, and so they would have been able to diagnose him earlier. You know the children's hospital. They were just not at that point. I don't know if it's changed, but they just didn't see it. They just didn't know what it was. They didn't even the psychiatrist we took him to. She didn't say anything of that sort. She didn't even say no mention the outpatient program that deals with addiction with teens didn't say that to us.
Speaker 1:Right, which is just unbelievable.
Speaker 2:It's unbelievable and certainly no one said to us at that point, if he uses one more time, it wasn't until he got to the psychiatric hospital that anybody was like, okay, he can't use ever again. But that was you know. Think about it. He comes back to us the end of July. This is December. How many uses in there in that time? Even even despite everything that we tried, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know again, I want to stress that like cause I know you, we've talked about this in the past and and I talk about this with so many parents and so many parents blame themselves, but you can't, you cannot blame yourself because, again, you don't know. What you don't know and nobody knew about this and nobody was prepared to deal with this. And this is another devastating consequence of legalization, you know is that we have so many cases and so many different, so many different ways that it manifests that CIP manifests, that CUD manifests, and even the physical effects right, it's individual for everybody, like everything else, and we just don't know how to deal with it. And that in itself is something that Pam is very serious about addressing, and Sam as a whole as well, is that we need to educate medical professionals across the board on what this is and how- Across the board.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Across the board and the CHS. The only reason we knew what it was is our son's godfather happened to have a friend that owned a dispensary in Colorado and told us about a Facebook group. Oh my God. We looked on the Facebook group and we're like this is it to a T? You know? That's the only reason we even knew what it was.
Speaker 1:And for our listeners, who don't know what CHS stands for, it's cannabinoid hyperamnesis syndrome, which is the chronic vomiting which has been coined by Dr Ronit Lev as scrommeting. And really, if you've ever experienced anyone with it, that is exactly what it is. It is a screaming and vomiting at the same time because the pain in the stomach is so intense and it comes to a point where you're vomiting absolutely nothing, but you just have that urge. And another supposed side effect, or a symptom of relief, apparently, is hot showers, which can be like Chinese water torture to the other family members around who are experiencing the sounds of scrommeting and the constant showering that occurs throughout the day, incessantly, you know. So that's what CHS is in a nutshell and, like Mary said, there are, I know of, actually three Facebook pages devoted to this, with not thousands, not hundreds of thousands, but millions of participants. It's insane From around the world Yep, absolutely All over the world.
Speaker 2:And so another Facebook group that I came to find is parents with cannabis-induced psychosis children.
Speaker 1:I think it's the name of it, it's two Johnny's Ambassadors.
Speaker 2:Yes, which is amazing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Her cannabis-induced psychosis. It's a private group for parents like Mary whose children are suffering at any age you know you could be a teen or a young adult or even older adult suffering from cannabis induced psychosis or CIP and so she has a private group where these parents can network together and, you know, support each other.
Speaker 2:There's so many great tidbits in there and it is like boots on the ground parents dealing with it, especially those in small towns. You know I'm having trouble finding resources in a major metropolitan area. I can't imagine what it's like in these small towns and just the mentality of you just quit or you just get it together or just give them a good lecture and everything is just going to be fine. I'm like, well, that's not really how that works. I always thought, you know, until we had to deal with it, I mean I had some really poor preconceived notions. You know, and I have to say, speaking on the preconceived notions, it wasn't even until our son did go to a rehab facility that I met some of the parents and that's been the biggest help. And one principal of a high school, one of the moms, is a doctor. One of the moms heck, there was one where one was an addiction counselor and the son had VIP. I mean it's amazing. And so you think, oh, one was playing NCAA soccer. You know what I mean. Like it's not, like it's not what you think it is. You know the kids, you know it's just quote, unquote weed. So they're not doing cocaine, they're not fentanyl or anything like that. I didn't know. Hardcore drugs, how can all these? I honestly believe that our sons because our oldest one is still using, as far as I know. I don't think, and our oldest son will say I wish I would have witnessed it when I was 25, because I think he now understands the effect on his brain, but I don't think they really understood the risk that they were taking. Had they known what the risk was, I don't think they would have ever started. Fortunately for our middle son his tail unfortunate for him and for us. But people he knows and friends you know, hopefully that has helped them. Always tell the other parents. If you know anybody struggling or need help, please come to me. I know the local resources, I know what has worked and what doesn't work and, like you said, our stories are similar. Their details are changed a little bit but the stories are similar and things that work and don't work are similar. Healthy boundaries work and reinforcing those boundaries Get yourself support. You know I checked out Marathon Now in the beginning of my journey.
Speaker 2:I really wanted in-person meetings and even in the major city, like we live in, there are no in-person meetings. And even in the major city, like we live in there are no, no in-person, but you can get on lots of Zoom ones. But I wanted in-person, so I did Al-Anon. I got a sponsor. As soon as I felt strong enough, I went and got a sponsor. That's been super helpful. Addiction's been here, is here, has been here from time immemorial and addiction isn't going to go away and everybody's addicted to something right, whether it be caffeine or sugar, or some people are addicted to exercise. You know, you know, it just so happens. But this thing is really devastating to the brain, devastating. And I found out recently that a big spike now, um, it's for the 70 plus crowd, it's 1920 seems to be the height of this. And then the 70 plus crowd who've been lifelong smokers. Now the potency is so high now they're showing signs of psychosis and the chs and the whole nine yards.
Speaker 1:It's really horrible and also the physical effects like heart problems and vascular problems. I could tell you a lot of stories about 60-year-old men that I know that use marijuana and are not using the dummies or the Delta-8s, for that matter. They are using Delta-9,. But I could tell you some stories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and these stories are real. They're not. They're not just held up as cautionary tales. This is what we're really dealing with. This is what's really happening, and the access gets more and more easy. Like we're in a state where there's laws on the books that aren't being enforced and more vape shops are coming up all the time and it's probably going to get legalized next year. This is going to be more of a problem in our state and I can tell you right now our system is not ready for it.
Speaker 1:No system is no state is ready for it we're not ready. No, system is ready for it is. The state is ready for it, we're not ready, the system is ready for it. And it's sad because, of course, the deltas across the board, the hemp-derived products, are not illegal. They're not Even if it's legalized. Those products are not the ones that are hurting our kids, are not the ones that are going to be regulated, so that's a problem.
Speaker 2:It's a problem and I think you have to keep in mind too. You have to deal with the addiction part of it and you have to deal with the psychosis part of it. A hundred, the psychosis, yeah, psychosis, yeah. And so what I found the most helpful for the psychosis part of it was the University of Washington had a P-REACH program. It's called online. It's really great. You do the online course and then they assign you in an ambassador where you practice your newfound skills right. You learn how to talk to somebody in psychosis. You learn how, what things are useful or not. Just your whole body language is important. It's not just what you say, it's how you say it and how you're. It's so nuanced, and I just so happened to get a wonderful ambassador out of Florida. She's been super, super helpful. That was great and that is a free program. I highly recommend that. Yeah, I just you know. Yeah, I do feel like you have to. You have to learn as much as you can about two things as quickly as you can, and that's that's tough, because at the same time, you are up all night with somebody who's not sleeping because they're manic that night or you know, and it does affect the rest of your life.
Speaker 2:Our family is so different. Now. Our other two sons don't speak to the middle son now, which is very difficult. You know, some days our son is nice to me. Most of the days he is not. You know he's following the household rules, he's staying sober and is med compliant, but the meds aren't helping him. Or now you know he's currently on Govenvi that the FDA you know approved back in September. It's not working for him.
Speaker 2:You know we had a doctor's appointment on Monday and they're talking this one up to another one that didn't work, which is really heartbreaking for our son and the whole family. We keep putting our faith in these doctors and new medicines and that's just not working. So it's really, really difficult. It puts a strain on everybody's relationships this house used to be full of. You know. The boys used to bring their friends over and play monopoly and go up to the pool. We have the community pool right up the street from us and they don't come by anymore. We don't see them. That's hard. Our younger son switched schools. They were all the boys were in the same school and switched schools and so he didn't. He'd get a fresh start from all this. You know, so it's.
Speaker 2:It's. It's been challenging. It certainly put a strain on the my marriage, you know. You know we come from to the same problem two different ways. Luckily it's actually works out because between the two of us we can cover all the bases, you know. But we come to it two different ways, you know, and so that was hard to navigate, you know.
Speaker 1:We've seen that work out both ways. You know, we've seen some families where the husband and wife remain a united front, but we've also seen it where you're torn apart. You know, and it's very sad that such a product could have an effect on a marriage like this, you know, and and on a whole family dynamic yeah, and I think our son has a lot of.
Speaker 2:He tries I just had a therapist tell us this yesterday. He tries to protect us from that, like he doesn't want to be a burden to us. He didn't, he didn't want this to happen to us and he feels bad about that, which doesn't help his self-esteem, which doesn't help him move forward. It's very, very difficult, you know, and it's certainly put a strain on. Some of my friends understand why I'm short-tempered that day because I haven't slept in three days, three nights, three days, whatever. And some don't understand addiction. Some people understand severe mental illness. Some people don't. You know most don't, to be honest. You know what I mean. But then we live in the real world, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's very, um difficult, but you do learn a new set of skills and you are able to move forward.
Speaker 2:There's this great podcast called Hope Stream and I just keep telling myself okay, we got to keep streaming that hope. I have gained and lost hope that our son would make a full recovery at least a dozen times. I think he's going to make it and I think he's not. He's going to have. You know, now we're looking at a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Is it going to be permanent, is it not? You know, and I just I got to have hope and I just keep looking for the good, looking for the good. And you know, boy, when I smell marijuana somewhere, or see another billboard, or somebody's trying to hawk the benefits of it, or sell the new THC drink, or whatever, I just want to punch somebody you know, or another legislator puts profit before public health.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:I know it's the biggest regulatory failure of my lifetime it has. They have man that loophole, just opened up Pandora's box and my son is paying the price.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am just so sorry for what you've been through and all of the families you know. It's devastating and that's why we do this podcast. We want to raise awareness across the country. We want our legislators to listen to this and see that this is, this is not just one parent, it's just not one story. They're everywhere, everywhere and it's every state, and it's especially the states that have legalized marijuana, and whether it be medical or recreational, but regardless of legalization, it is everywhere, because of this open loophole, that hopefully the federal farm bill loophole will be closed.
Speaker 1:There is language in it to close this and ban these products and make them illegal, and I know people question well, how will that be enforced? But I think we're turning a tide a little bit and we just have to, as you said, not give up hope, definitely find the hope in this, and we do have to keep raising our voices, like you're doing here today and like so many of the parents do across the country every single day, in any way they can. Would you tell us how you came to be aware of PAM?
Speaker 2:I became aware of PAM through Every Brain Matters, which, I have to say. They run a weekly support group. It's on Wednesday nights and they do believe that I have one on Saturday too. I go to the Wednesday night one and it has kept me alive. You learn a whole lot of skills. There is a very supportive group of parents in there that are experiencing this and we hold up each other and we give each other hope and it's been wonderful, and it's a wealth of wonderful information too. So, yeah, it's been, that's been great.
Speaker 1:Most parents do know Every Brain Matters and Aubrey Adams, but for those of you who don't, as Mary said, aubrey's been doing this a long time. She has a very heartfelt, passionate and profound story that she just shared with us on our last episode. So don't miss that one either, and I say this with complete love and respect, but Aubrey has a very big mouth in this and has learned to take a lot of hits in this, and we work together to bring families um together for advocacy and also to bring parents to capitol hill and raise their voices at the legislative level. So thank you for mentioning aubrey and every brain matters. And again, like we, we will put information out with these podcasts, this podcast especially of some of the resources that Mary mentioned, like the Hope Stream podcast, like links to EBM's meetings and Malamon and things of that nature. So that's another reason we do these podcasts so that we are able to provide parents with additional resources and connect with each other.
Speaker 2:I hope someday that we can regulate it. My son, when he was in rehab, we went through his phone and he had a discount member number email from a vape shop chain at the age of 17. That should never be. That should never be. And you know, we've got to do something. We just have to. Yes, it's too late for my son, but there's a lot of other kids coming up in this world and we need, we got to protect them, and I've seen some parents do something.
Speaker 1:I have hope that it's not too late for your son. I mean, yes, he's experienced what he's experienced, but I believe there's still hope and he is still pretty young. So we're going to keep praying here and not lose the faith. But I do agree with you that we have to prevent others from having to experience what we've experienced thus far and access.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not going to give up hope either. No, definitely not. He's a really special kid. He's smart, he's funny. I'm not going to give him up on him, even when he gives up on himself. Being med resistant has been very difficult, um, but we have there's always clozapine. The side effects are pretty rough for that, but you know there's hope, you know yeah, yeah, and again they're making some strides.
Speaker 1:We actually know of a pharmaceutical husband wife duo, their pharmacists and doctor a doctor. They're working on a medication to help with cannabis use disorder. So I mean, at least some people are recognizing this.
Speaker 1:And that's because of everything they saw um in his medical practice and he was like this is a problem. So there are people out there that are looking to make a difference here and find the right help. You know to provide that. So, mary, you mentioned the meetings. So we know there's that. So I would assume that that's what's helped you move forward the most. Or is there anything else that's really helped you move forward in this?
Speaker 2:merits. I mean, this double-headed monster is way bigger than any one person. I think in the beginning it's super hard because you're isolating a bit, because you're still. It's like camping right. You're doing as much as you can just to survive the day that you know you really aren't. You can't see the forest through the trees. You can't see the forest through the trees and there are some more experienced parents out there that will help you and they can help you and you can draw on those strengths on the days that you are feeling overwhelmed or you feel like there is no end to it or you know, for a long time, like I said, we've been battling this for two years and the longest case that any had heard of in any of these meetings was two years. So when we got we're getting to the two year mark, I'm like I'm I got really, you know, depressed.
Speaker 2:I thought, okay, by two years this will have cleared up, it'll be all better, blah, blah, blah. And so then I just heard three years. I'm like, okay, okay, we can go another year, we can keep going. He needs another year and that's okay. He had dreams of going to college this fall. He just said today that he doesn't think he can go, which is really heart-wrenching for everybody. But give it another year. We've got to keep trying. We can't give up. It's those success stories that keep you going and you love your child. So you'll do what you can. You'll do anything you know.
Speaker 1:Earlier, you mentioned a um, just a very positive statement that you made about um having hope and moving forward, and what you wish you knew so, before we end, is there. Is there a message you'd like to share with our parents to help them on their journeys through this?
Speaker 2:I would say, first of all, I wish I would have known this and I didn't know. Hold off use as long as you can and that's true with any substance right Alcohol, nicotine, any of them Like. The longer you can hold off your you know offspring starting that, the better. So I wish I would have known that aspect of it. I mean, I knew a little bit, but not to the extent that this high potency THC vapes would do. I wish I would have known that. I also wish I would have known that vapes are like mice If you find two, there's a hundred you don't know about. I wish I would have known that vapes are like mice If you find two, there's a hundred you don't know about. I wish I would have known that you know. Um, I wish I would have known that it's a misconception that you, when you test from where I thought, okay, either test positive or not, test positive for marijuana in your system. You can get a cost-efficient test on Amazon in that test the levels so you can determine new use from old use. So that's a misconception. And you know, good old Amazon, they'll send you a huge package of them in the mail.
Speaker 2:The thing that works is the only thing that seems to work across the board for all parents is setting a healthy boundary and sticking to them. You say it out loud, that's what you do. That works. The rest is a little bit out of your control. I mean, it's a lot out of your control. But, man that the boundaries thing and keep filling your loved ones with self-esteem and love. You can do this. It's difficult. Look for the good, let the past be in the past. Focus on what's before you and be very loving and forgiving. And try not to think too much in the future too, because that can be scary for your loved one. But I try to look for something every day that he's enjoyed in his day. Maybe he went to the pool that day, or maybe he ate a salad or whatever. Whatever I was like okay, that's a good thing, this is a joy thing, and I just try to focus on that, you know. So, yeah, that's what I would say.
Speaker 1:I think those are beautiful words yeah and um and and. Again, thank you so much for being a sponsor. Definitely get a sponsor. That's important advice. I'm glad you actually mentioned that because I think a couple of weeks back we interviewed Marty, also from Georgia, and she had the same words of advice. Like that changed her life for her Once she knew how to help herself. It made her a little bit better at helping her child. I think that's a great point, mary. So thank you for bringing that up again and we will share some of the resources that Mary talked about.
Speaker 1:Mary, just thank you so much for being here and sharing your story for us. I know you telling the screen and hug the parents who get choked up in recalling it, and so thank you for your strength and your resilience because, while you might not think so, you are resilient and have shown great courage in telling your story. So we're we're so thankful to have you be part of PAN. So thank you for sharing and thanks for your bravery and your vigilance in telling your story. And I'd like to just remind our listeners if you're interested in becoming a member of PAN if you're not already and appearing on the Fortitude podcast, just reach out to me at Chrissy that's C-R-I-S-S-Y at learnaboutsamorg, or you can reach us at PAN P-A-N at learnaboutsamorg and, as I said, if you're not already part of the network, we can get you signed up to receive our newsletter, webinar and event alerts.
Speaker 1:I want to wish everyone a happy summer and I want to remind our listeners that we will be having our Parent Action Network Conference in Hill Day again in February, and within the next few months we'll start to gauge interest. And again, mary, thank you so much for being here and for giving us the time to tell your story. We look forward to having you advocate with us some more, and you're doing a great job, so thank you so much for sharing with us thanks, chrissy.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being a lighthouse in this terrible storm. I'm trying to do it at home, but I'm so thankful that you're doing it on a national level.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:So thank you.
Speaker 1:Sure, and we hope that each of these episodes leaves you with a profound understanding of the urgent need for awareness, better regulations and the power of community support in addressing the challenges posed by today's marijuana products. We look forward to advocating with our parents and hope that you listen to future episodes.