Fortitude: Turning Tragedy into Action
A podcast by the Parent Action Network (PAN), a division of Smart Approaches to Marijuana (SAM), dedicated to amplifying the voices of parents whose lives have been devastated by the harmful effects of marijuana. Each episode features personal interviews with parents sharing their heart-wrenching stories of loss, addiction, and the impact on their families. Through these powerful narratives, PAN aims to educate, inspire, and mobilize listeners to take action against the widespread dangers of marijuana use.
Fortitude: Turning Tragedy into Action
When Science Meets Heartbreak: How losing a son launched a movement for brain health.
Turning pain into purpose is the essence of Kristen Gilliland's journey. As both a research scientist and a mother who lost her son, Anders to an accidental overdose, she brings an unprecedented depth of understanding to the conversation about marijuana and adolescent brain health.
Kristen shares how her background as a chemistry professor didn't prepare her for the reality of today's high-potency marijuana products. When one of her twin sons began exhibiting behavioral changes, she initially missed the connection to his marijuana use. Only after hearing another mother's similar experience did she begin researching the potential link between marijuana and her son's developing schizoaffective disorder.
The scientific evidence Kristen presents is sobering. Research shows 30% greater prefrontal cortical thinning in adolescent marijuana users compared to non-users—permanent damage that doesn't occur to the same degree when use begins after adolescence. To illustrate today's dramatically increased potencies, she explains how 1990's marijuana was comparable to a Bud Light, whereas today's products are like martinis, and modern concentrates equivalent to Everclear grain alcohol.
What makes this conversation particularly poignant is the revelation that Kristen's surviving twin son later developed schizophrenia as well, highlighting the complex interplay between genetic predisposition and environmental factors. This deeply personal experience fuels her newest venture—a nonprofit called 22 Forever that will develop brain health curriculum for fifth through eighth graders. Rather than using fear tactics, Kristen aims to empower young people with knowledge about how their thoughts, actions, environment, and substance use affect their developing brains.
Listen to this powerful episode to understand why prevention education focused on neuroscience and the understanding of epigenetics may be our best hope for protecting adolescent brain health. Share this episode with parents, educators, and policymakers who need to hear this critical message about marijuana risks that are often overlooked in today's push toward normalization.
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This is Chrissy Groenwegen, back again for another episode of the Fortitude Podcast, Turning Tragedy Into Action. Today, I have with me a very special guest, Kristen Gilliland. Kristen is a public speaker and educator, a director of outreach and advocacy programs for the Warren Center for Neuroscience Drug Discovery and an assistant professor of research at Vanderbilt University. But besides those things, she is another mother with a story. And so, Kristen, thank you so much for being here with us today. I know you're a very busy person and I just really appreciate having you here.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, and I'm never too busy to get this message out, so I'm very, very happy to be here Some of you may know a little bit about Kristen's story and how, despite her background in science and chemistry, she has a tragic story because she sadly lost one of her twin sons due to an accidental overdose. He started using marijuana and that led to other drugs. And so that's important here, because, of course, many of us talk about how marijuana. We don't love to use the word gateway, but in a lot of ways it is a gateway. As we know scientifically, most who begin using marijuana move on to another drug. So again, so again, kristen, thank you so much for being here to tell your story, and before we begin, I would just like you to give us a little background, given the connection with marijuana, on how you felt about legalization and what life was like before marijuana became a factor in this story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd be honored to. So we, my family, we were in California and that's where native Californians and during that time period when my boys were growing up, and during that time period when my boys were growing up, they were born in 1996. And that's actually when marijuana was legalized for medical purposes. But we were a family that was very active outdoors. We surfed together, we skateboarded together, we did lots of sports and things like that, lots of sports and things like that. But I will say that in California, marijuana became legalized in 2016 for recreational purposes.
Speaker 1:Leading up to that, I honestly I will say that as a scientist, you know, I was doing my own thing involved and the surfing culture. It's highly acceptable. I don't know, you know, if you know of California, there's a lot of people who, who smoke weed, right, I mean, before they get in the water. They do that. And to me at that time period, you know, I'm I'm somewhat embarrassed and ashamed to say I didn't know the difference in potency.
Speaker 1:I had no idea how much it had changed from when I was, you know, a teenager at that time period, and so my boys you know both of them when they were in middle school, that's when definitely it was legal for medical purposes. Kids will be kids and they find ways to use it. But I was, you know, more as a parent saying, no, we don't want you to use this. But what happened was, you know, of course they would sneak and do that kind of stuff. And that's when I actually started to notice some changes in my son and one of my sons and more, more kind of a growing change of becoming either kind of in a manic state and then maybe in a very, you know, closed off where he would isolate himself for days. And when it came to marijuana, I really wasn't thinking about that that much.
Speaker 1:I was thinking, you know, bringing him, we brought him to therapists, we brought him to a psychiatrist just trying to figure out what was going on with him. And he would have stages where he would just blow up and he would destroy all of his photos of himself in the house and and break things. And I never really tied it together with maybe using marijuana. I just didn't, I didn't know. But I was at a get together with some friends and there was this woman who showed up and she started to mention about cannabis. She was talking about weed and she was saying that her son actually had been put into a psychiatric ward. She said from using marijuana. And I was like what?
Speaker 1:And as a scientist I was teaching neurochemistry, chemistry of drugs and poisons, but really at that time it was like the chemistry of drugs and poisons was all drugs, it was everything, and opioids were the thing you talked about, you know, during that time period.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I just my eyes opened then and that's when I really started doing a lot of research into it and thinking that maybe some of the symptoms that my son was, you know, was having, or the symptoms he was having, were possibly from using marijuana. And that's when my eyes opened. And that's when my eyes opened and I definitely was very much at that time period that's when I realized I do not want this legalized recreationally, because I started to see what's going on, and this was early on as far as the scientific literature goes. But now, wow, there is so much evidence just about the association between cannabis use and psychosis, and you know cannabis use disorder, cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, you know all these things. So really I wish that and thank you for what you guys are doing by just getting this information out to the general public, because a number of parents who have no idea about this and don't understand why it's so devastating and can cause irreparable harm to the adolescent brain, and so we really, really need to get this message out.
Speaker 2:And you know your story, given your knowledge and history as a chemist and a scientist, gives this a little more credibility. You know so originally, while you're working in the field and doing your own research regarding your situation with your son, you still were not talking about this publicly. Yet you know, and so I think it's wonderful, as we continue this session and go down this path, how it led you to speak on this topic, which I think gives some credibility to this.
Speaker 1:Right and you know, it really is something that since I came out, what I should say is that because my son, he, when he developed he was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, so schizophrenia, and had some manic depressive, you know disorders that were going on.
Speaker 2:But that was with no prior history in your genetics or your life prior to this right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was no prior history of that. And so what happened was that when he was put on antipsychotics and he definitely he went through it he was seeing, you know, people that weren't there. He was talking to people and he would tell me he's like Mom, do you see him? He was talking to people and he would tell me he's like mom, do you see him? Or he'll tell me watch, are all the chairs rearranged in the room, can you see it?
Speaker 1:And as a mother, a parent, it was devastating to watch him go through this. And he had started to fall into addiction because he didn't want to take the antipsychotics. He besides, you know, when we surfed and things like that, he was actively involved in making music and very talented. So that's what he would isolate himself in the room for days and days and make music and be up for days. But he, you know, when he developed schizoaffective disorder, they put him on medication. He didn't want to do that anymore. He didn't find the you know, the motivation and desire to do it and so he didn't like taking his meds and he went off of them and he started using other substances to try to help his condition that he was going through. And how old was he at this time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he was. He was diagnosed with um. Yeah, so he was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. He was 17 and then fell into addiction. It was a family, which is not his fault, but his dad used drugs with him, and so that's what he knew, kind of growing up. And both of us, though, did come from families where addiction and there was mental illness. That was there, but never schizophrenia or any of that. It was mainly depression, anxiety that you know. Uh, not not trying to lessen the severity of those, but definitely that's that's where both of our families felt, but heavy into addiction.
Speaker 1:So I was really against just the kids doing anything, because I knew their genetics as far as addiction goes. And, um, he, he was my, my, their father was very much like it's kind of the, it's just weed, and and if there's anything which I would like to say at the end for parents that are going through this, we were so against each other because I was very much like, you know, feet dug into the ground, like three feet down, like I'm not budging, and he was always like it's just weed, it's just you know, or whatever it might be, and saying there's no way that that could cause this and I'm not trying to throw him under the bus because he didn't know either. He didn't know and so if there are people that are struggling with this is just to get whatever help you can from counseling marriage, counseling anything, to try and get on the same page, because it is so important. And we were not on the same page and I do believe that that contributed to more problems with my son, because we were actively not on the same page. So I really feel strongly about people going through therapy and trying to figure that out, because it is hard enough as it is, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a really important point and something we talk about a lot We've talked about that at our conference in that, first of all, men and women process things differently, period, and so the mother's perspective is really different from the father's perspective and in fact, at our last Hill Day, we actually had Randy Bacchus do a presentation on the father's perspective and we actually had seven fathers attending the conference and Hill Day. So it's really important to understand that. And then, as you said, like, while it didn't play out the way you would probably hope in your story, it either brings you together or tears you apart. That's right.
Speaker 1:And, and so what happened was my son was living with their, their father, and um, and it was, you know, they looked at me as being at. During that time my children looked at me as I was this, you know, just the person that's always like no, no, and if I could go back I would have been a little more asking questions and not just so dug in. But you know, as mama bear, it's like what you do, and um, so I went off to to Vanderbilt because my sons at that time, you know, on both of them they weren't really talking to me as much because I I caused issues between, I would say, in the fact that I was so against them using anything and they couldn't understand what's the big deal. Anyways, so I went off to Vanderbilt to study new treatments for schizophrenia, because my son was in active addiction, he wasn't communicating with me and I went off to try and do anything I could in science.
Speaker 1:And so I took a sabbatical from Cal Poly where I taught in California, took a sabbatical from Cal Poly where I taught in California, took a sabbatical to Vanderbilt, to the Warren Center for Neuroscience Drug Discovery, and they were working on new, novel treatments for schizophrenia, because all of the treatments that are out there right now mainly treat the positive symptoms, which are the hallucinations, delusions. But schizophrenia has, um, it has negative symptoms that are kind of just not finding the motivation to do things. It's basically, you know, flattened moods and then, uh, not finding pleasure. And that also has the cognitive symptoms, problems with working memory, you know, disorganized thoughts.
Speaker 1:All of that symptoms, problems with working memory, you know disorganized thoughts, all of that and those. This is one of the the the reasons why so many people who are on, who have schizophrenia, go off of their meds, because they already feel those symptoms, but when they get put on the meds it actually makes them worse and so they will go off of them. And so I thought, if I could go and try and find something as a mother, it was like I had to do something to help my son and it actually helped our relationship. But unfortunately it was during my time period when I was here that he died. So I was here six months into my sabbatical, the police came to my work to tell me that he died. So, yeah, it was really, really one of those times it's like your life stops and you have a life that's before with him, and then it's like your life gets split into two. And now the hardest thing I've ever gone through um, and then figuring out what, what do I do? You know how do I deal with this and I but while I was here at the Warren Center before this happened, I was doing so much research on the influence of cannabis on schizophrenia, on just looking about how, what are the ties and what do we know as scientists and just trying to figure out this?
Speaker 1:And I knew I was going to do something for my son. I knew I had to do something in honor of my son and that's where lucky for me that the executive director of our center, about a year and a half into it, he knew I had already started going to schools and talking to kids and he said why don't you become the director of outreach and advocacy here? And you know, that's where I kind of started just going to schools and talking to kids about cannabis use. But then it has turned into something much larger now and beautiful in honor of my son. In honor of my son. So, um I, I.
Speaker 1:My message is really about brain health and really trying to teach kids that brain health equals mental health and that we, particularly young, young kids, understanding that they have this amazingly beautiful brain and that they can learn to form healthy connections, that they can actually learn about their brain. If we think about it, as far as kids go, they're not taught about their brain. They're taught that your prefrontal cortex does not develop until you're 25. But what does that mean? You know? I mean they're like okay. So my whole mission now and I will make the announcement that I'm actually I am leaving the Warren Center in August and I'm starting my own nonprofit- oh, that's amazing Called 22 Forever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, and going to be building a curriculum for fifth through eighth graders on brain health.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Wonderful.
Speaker 2:Another thing for. Pan to support and promote for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thank you, and I'm just, I'm so excited. It's been in the works for a while and I have a great team and I'm very, very excited because I really want to teach kids that they are in the driver's seat in forming healthy brain connections and how their thoughts influence those connections, how their actions, their environment, everything. But to teach them the impact of stress, social media and substance use on the developing brain and why it is that they can lead to poor mental health, and understanding how it does it and why mindfulness works, why mindfulness is such a powerful tool. But to teach them, you know everybody thinks, oh, it's going to make me tool. But to teach them, you know everybody thinks, oh, it's going to make me relax. But why does it make you relaxed? What's?
Speaker 1:going on in your brain, understanding why they're more emotional. When you know, during adolescence, understanding the emotional center of their brain develops ahead of their prefrontal cortex, so that volume knob is not working. So great for the prefrontal cortex, their prefrontal cortex, so that volume knob is not working so great for the prefrontal cortex.
Speaker 2:You know what I love about this, so you might remember that my background is in prevention.
Speaker 2:I'm a prevention specialist, I also have a degree in adolescent psychology and my favorite age group is middle school, junior, high school, fifth to eighth graders, because and I don't mean this in a bad way, but it is the reality that high schoolers, no matter what the program is, no matter what the presentation is, you're not reaching them as much as you would like because they're high schoolers, they're not going to listen and, granted, it's an important job to do and we have to keep educating them as well.
Speaker 2:And if you get one person's attention in every presentation you do, then you're doing your job. But my favorite level was always fifth to eighth graders, because we do know that their brains are at a stage and their whole development, whether it's physical, emotionally, their brain development, everything tells us that while they're finding themselves and becoming who they want to be, they still need adult comfort and attention, and they process that differently than high schoolers and, of course, differently than younger children. And so they are the most reachable and the most moldable. And one message that always worked for me as a prevention educator was that no fifth to eighth grader likes the idea of being anybody's guinea pig, so it was always a good message as well, and I did a prevention program on e-cigarettes, of course, vaping prevention.
Speaker 2:I did a prevention program on e-cigarettes, of course, vaping prevention. And the big message was the you don't want to be a guinea pig to this industry. And the feedback that came back from parents was, you know, endearing and somewhat funny, because we would do projects where the kids would have to like, do a counter ad to the ads that were out there for vaping, right, you know, like it would be like a suitcase, right, and it would have like all your business stuff, and then there'd be your vaping device and it would be like have all the essentials, and the kids would do a counter ad. And I mean, kristen, they were so funny but the parents loved this and the kids were so inventive and I'll never forget the one because I could see it in my head. It said it had an open suitcase and it said ticket to death, which is, I mean, really very true, you know, but they listened.
Speaker 1:And so I just love that you're doing this Well and it's giving them, it's empowering them and giving them agency, and that's what kids want. They're trying to figure out who they are, their identity, and when you just talk to them and talk down to them and you don't, you have to let them think that this is the idea, right, this is what we want to spread and and that's also why I love, um, just looking at the um, the brain, um, what I can't even think of, uh, dupont, uh, let's see. Or Choice Prevention. I love that they're spreading the message of how many kids are not using, because that is something too. I always use that when I go talk to kids and I always have quizzes. I'm like how many, how many of you think you know what is, what's the correct answer? A, b, c or D? You know about how many percent of you know your grade is using, and they always choose, like the above 50%, and I'm like, no, so just trying to get them to realize that they will one, they can get it.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's the thing teaching them stuff I have found and I go and talk to them about their developing brain and they ask questions. They are so smart and understand that and I think so much of the time we don't give them that ability to, to, to actually present them with material. That is what most people think is above their head and it's not. You know, they truly can get it. And if they can understand that and understand and start using neuroplasticity to really think about, like, oh, when you talk to yourself, or you know what your actions are, your environment and learning about which this is going to be a big term, but epigenetics, you know, when we think about why is it that people can get type 2 diabetes? You know it's because it has to do your diet, what, what's going on? Or? Or cancer, it's what you eat, it's how you're taking care of itself and how that changes.
Speaker 1:Um, basically, the, the turning on and off of genes, and definitely cannabis. You know I want to teach them about that Cannabis. I mean, if you just think about people who get lung cancer, do they get it from smoking? So what makes you think that if you use cannabis, it's not going to do anything like that to change the turning on and off of genes and just really to try and help them understand it, all genes, and just really to try and help them understand it all. And so that, um, you know, I, I, right now I have these, all these great visions. So it's going to be, it's all going to be work in progress, but I'm, I'm very, very excited and all in, you know, in my son's honor, which, will you know, it's just I want to work, work really hard. It's just I want to work, work really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So can I ask you a question, if you don't mind, could you, would you tell us a little bit? Because, again, you have twins, so I'd be very interested in knowing or talking a little bit about how this affected Andra's twin you know it must have been really hard, because twins are so connected.
Speaker 1:Right, and, and it was it was very, very hard.
Speaker 2:Now, of course, you know.
Speaker 1:Yes, so he, you know Anders and Jonas. They were, of course, like twins, had their own language, they had everything they did together and and will say his twin was much more social than Anders was. He could easily make friends. Anders was much more introverted, had a harder time with that, but after Anders passed it was devastating for his brother and he actually went deep into some dark places and he started using things as well and I hate to say, but now has schizophrenia. So he himself has schizophrenia. I know, he himself has schizophrenia, I know and you know I don't know he was, it was a later. It showed itself I should say about 2024 or so, so much later, because usually schizophrenia shows up late adolescence, early adulthood. So it did, but it's been very difficult and he lives out here with me now, which is wonderful, but he has been in and out of psychiatric hospitals.
Speaker 1:And I'm so sorry to hear that it's it's it's been a challenge, but also another reason why I have to go out and do this. You know, and I don't know if I think, I don't even know how to phrase that but he, he has, he's done so well now and he's on antipsychotics. But I think the reason why he developed schizophrenia has never been questioned. I should say on his mind, but I think I know in my mind. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I totally get it. And again, it's part of that twin connection, for sure you know, genetically and in general.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what you know.
Speaker 1:I think that, truly, when we look at schizophrenia or psychosis brought on by cannabis use, I mean it's almost sometimes like the perfect storm of there is.
Speaker 1:Maybe there is some past genetic predisposition, but you know, using high potency marijuana, starting using when you're young, the frequency, how long you're using see marijuana starting using when you're young, the frequency how long you're using, and, uh, definitely, the um epigenetics looking at how that changes, the turning on and off of of genes. It just just sometimes like I think it is the perfect storm. And obviously, being twins, they both had a very similar genetic makeup and were exposed to some of the same things and it has been a struggle. But this is the one thing I want to say that I've learned an immense amount about schizophrenia now, an immense amount both from the scientific standpoint and, obviously, firsthand experience. And with my other son when he was going through it, when Anders had it, I I feel like I didn't, maybe, maybe it's it's hard to accept as a parent and maybe you don't believe that that's really happening to your son, and there's times you're like what, what is going on with you?
Speaker 1:You know but now yeah, with Jonas, I know now how to. When he's having an episode, I understand what not to do and it's not getting angry, it's not saying that's not right, that's not real, you know. I mean, I know that when he thinks someone is shooting at him or he thinks this, that that is so true in his mind and so it's like what can I do to help you? How can I help you with this? Let's get you to a safe space. Let's get you you know wherever it might be and sometimes that might be the hospital and like let's get you into a safe place, because it is so real in their minds.
Speaker 1:And when you see those people walking down the street talking to themselves, you know they they hear these voices that are right, screaming in their ear and it is like like seven people. So I'm just yelling at them at once and telling them horrific things about themselves. So my heart goes out every time I see someone on the street and there I can. I know they have schizophrenia in my heart. Just that makes me want to cry, because I've seen it in both my sons and now. No one should ever have to go through that ever, and that is one of the reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing, because I just I want to prevent that as much as we can and I do believe that prevention. So thank you for your work you've done and everything you do here, because if we can get it at, you know, at a young age, that's my thing is we can just try and and educate them, educate, educate and, and you know, I think that's it- yeah, yeah, um, you know I have.
Speaker 2:I have a different kind of question for you. So, being that you've done so much research on this, you know the truth about the dangers of cannabis and what it can do to us and our mental health. It must be disturbing to you, as a professional with your background and knowing all of this, that there are still so many doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists that still think it's a good thing beyond the three FDA approved medications. Have you been able to change any minds or have you had any discussions with people that do think it's good that understand your argument? Now, on our side of things, argument.
Speaker 1:Now on our side of things, yes, and actually working on a brochure that's going to be for pediatricians, for the pediatrician's offices, for OBGYN you know, physicians and their offices based on just explaining the harms to the developing brain and having them understand and so having the scientific version and the other, you know, just kind of the version where most people could grasp if they were sitting in a waiting room and had to pick something up. But, you know, starting there and just trying to hopefully get that out into the public and, you know, going through the. You know, whatever we can, and I've, honestly, we've been working on this with the One Choice Prevention crew too, so just trying to get that out. Yeah, most like physicians when I haven't had that experience, because most physicians I've talked to say oh my gosh, I know, I've seen it, you know, and a lot of emergency department physicians I know they say we see it every single day and cannabis, hyperemesis syndrome, they're like we see it, the scrambling that goes on with these.
Speaker 1:You know people who are in so much pain, I think. I think one thing that would be very helpful and I'm hoping too is that I love to go out and speak and to talk about the impact on the fetal and adolescent brain, that the impact of cannabis, but to go to medical schools and talk to the students like the upcoming students before they get out so that they can understand and and really understand, you know, understand all the science behind it.
Speaker 1:And I love actually it's the one thing I do enjoy doing that because I really can get down in the in the weeds of the science and really talk about you know basically all the neuroscience behind it.
Speaker 1:So you're like, okay, you can go in and and, uh, yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty funny. I enjoy that a lot. But then I also love to take, take it and like it. Um, you know CADCA this year, but to be able to take the, the message, and make it into very understandable terms is one of my favorite things to do too. Yeah, obviously yeah, developing a curriculum for the young. It's going to be even on a simpler level, but fun it has to be fun.
Speaker 2:Yes for sure, oh boy. And, and you know, like, again, I'm in New York and I'm in Dutchess County where we have the Culinary Institute, and I cannot express how much it disturbs me that they're teaching cannabis food courses, you know, and it's it's always bothered me, because they should be teaching, they should also have courses about the science of the dangers, but you know that's never going to happen there, but like it just kills me, you know. And then, of course, right across the street from the Culinary Institute is a vape shop, so it's, it's just ridiculous and a dispensary, you know.
Speaker 1:So it's the money of everything and it's which is really sad, and I do believe that we're going to have, and probably 10 years or so, they're going to say, oh yeah, we probably shouldn't have done that you know, or maybe even sooner.
Speaker 1:I don't know when that's going to happen, but I can say as a you know, to make sure it's very, very current, but just huge amounts of literature and it's coming out more and more, which which makes me happy and shows that more and more scientists are doing this research and it means it will get out to, hopefully, the general public and and we just need, we need parents to understand so many parents I I have been at um there. There's this, this uh course. It's called the first time drug offenders course and it's for metro, now school, yeah yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so they asked me to come in to speak to the parents about cannabis, which I did, and I can't tell you the the opposition I got from some to the parents about cannabis, which I did, and I can't tell you the the opposition I got from some of the parents that were like no, you know this, this is, that's not true. And you're showing them this research and they're like well, who, who is that? Who is that? I'm like these are people who you know this is peer reviewed, scientifically research and these are people who are really studying the science, and that is very frustrating to me. So I've had a lot of parents get very upset and angry and because they said I use all the time and I don't have this problem, and I say, well, it's because your brain is pretty much developed, but when you look at your child, it's not, and you're basically delaying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and of course I know this isn't going to happen to every child or every person, but the fact that it happens to even one is a problem.
Speaker 1:And that's what we really. The message is kind of the nuanced message even for kids, you know, just telling them if you can which hopefully they never would but sometimes like delaying because your brain, you know we've seen the rate of psychosis drop drastically after the age of 19. So when the prefrontal cortex is mostly developed, that's when it starts to drop and of course I don't want kids to use at all, but sometimes even having those conversations with them if you're a parent, just to get them past that stage of you know, I mean we just really need to get this information out to where it is common knowledge. And I have a graph that I just got from a research article and it shows prefrontal cortical thinning. So just looking at the thinning of the prefrontal cortex from adult cannabis users who started using after the age of 19 on, versus naive cannabis users never using, and then looking at adolescents from the ages of 14 through 19. And 30% more thinning for adolescent cannabis users that use between those ages, comparatively who use cannabis? Yeah, comparatively to the naive kids, but we also see that there's not as much thinning like. It's almost identical to the cannabis naive people for over the age of 19 past then.
Speaker 1:So it really is that time period when their brain is going through pruning, basically, you know, getting rid of of neurons that are not talking to each other as much and they don't need them anymore, and just a lot of plasticity. That's going on and but the fact that it's thinning more than you know a child who doesn't use or an adolescent who doesn't use you're not going to get that back, you know. That's this is the message that needs to get out. Why is that not on national news that we show this going on here? Because it is when you see it. You can show it to anyone. They're like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And, of course, you'll still have people denying it till through and through, you know, but still, as you said, if we can get this message out. What's also interesting to me is, while, of course, things have exacerbated over the past couple of years as potency rises, but the fact is that cannabis use disorder has been a thing for a long time, even before you know and, like one of our parents that I just interviewed, you know she this happened to her way back in 2009 with a diagnosis of cannabis use disorder severe. So this exists. This is in the DSM-IV. This is a psychiatric condition that, while not as well known and not happening to the degree it's happening now, it's happening now because of the potencies, because of the products, because of the chemical changes to the products and the addiction for profit industry, and so people do have to understand that, that we understand this is not the weed of yesteryear, because it's not. You're right, it's not that anymore. It's something completely different that's literally affecting our youth and young adults' mental health.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I have a graph that I show parents and it's kind of looking at the increase in potency and I show. You know, back in the nineties it was kind of like the equivalent in an alcohol, not saying it makes them feel the same, but just equivalent to like a Bud Light, you know. And then and then nowadays it's kind of like the equivalent of a martini, you know. But now the concentrates are like Everclear. It's like would you, you know when these kids are using these concentrates? Would you want to have your child go take a shot of Everclear before they go to school? Never, ever. And so many people just think it's just safe. They don't know, and that's the biggest thing is kids or parents don't know that potency. They's just safe. They don't know. And that's the biggest thing is kids or parents don't know that potency. They don't. They don't know that it's changed right.
Speaker 2:They don't understand what you guys are doing with sam and that is great, you know, and getting that message out yeah, we're trying and you know I don't know if you know this, but one of my jobs here is sam is to inform everybody on staff of the awareness days, weeks, months that happens, you know, for marketing and for our communication output. And maybe you don't know this, but July 22nd is World Brain Day, so it's a day where we do a lot of posting about cannabis and the brain, so keep that in mind.
Speaker 1:I will, I will for sure, and definitely, I think, actually, that might be the day that I'm presenting at CADCA.
Speaker 2:Oh, that is so funny? I think so.
Speaker 1:It might be it's either the well. It's 21st. Does it start on the 21st?
Speaker 2:Uh, 19, 20, 20. Yes, yes, sunday night is the 20th right. So, yes, it starts on the 21st.
Speaker 1:Yeah, night is the 20th, right? So, yes, it starts on the 21st. Yeah, I think that. I think I am presenting on that day then.
Speaker 2:So that's great. Wow, that's super cool. Yeah, again, I want to thank you for being here and telling this story, but also for all the help you've given to PAN. So, while you thank us for what we're doing here at PAN and SAM, I thank you for contributing to our newsletter, you know, for always being available to us when we need you, and I'm so thankful for everything that you're doing.
Speaker 1:Anytime, chrissy, you guys are, you guys are like my family you know, Absolutely. I mean, we all have to look out to each other and and anybody who's going through this. You're not alone. There are a lot of people that are, a lot of parents that are suffering with this too, as far as watching their child go through this and pan. You guys are amazing in what you do, so thank you, because you make people feel like they're not alone.
Speaker 2:Yep, and that's what we're trying to do and spreading this word, and we really hope that the Fortitude podcast gets out to not just parents and professionals and our communities, but also that legislators start to see it, listen to it and realize, you know, that's all well and fine. All we really want to know is the name and your state, because we want to make it clear that this is happening all across the country and these stories, while they have their differences, all have the common thread that this is because of marijuana and only marijuana, and we have to understand that. We don't even like to call it cannabis, of course, because this is marijuana and hypo-CTAC.
Speaker 1:Right, right, exactly, exactly, well, thank you so much and, as I said, so grateful for all you guys do.
Speaker 2:Well, we are so thankful for you and again our heart goes out to you for the loss of Anders and we wish you luck with Jonas as well, and thank you so much for everything you're doing, and we'll see you in another couple of weeks, so we are looking forward to that and keep us posted on progress with the program and, of course, we will work together to promote that. And you just hang in there and thank you again for all you do.
Speaker 1:Oh and thank you, and we'll see each other soon.
Speaker 2:We will All right. Well, you have a great day you too. I'd like to just remind everybody please keep listening to the Fortitude Podcast episodes. If you're interested in being a guest, just send me an email at chrissy, at learnaboutsamorg, or look for the emails that I'm sending out to our parents and listeners. And again, we will be at CADCA Mid-Year Conference in Nashville, Tennessee, from the 21st through the 24th tabling. We'll be tabling right next to the Bacchuses with the Extraordinary BU, so it's going to be a family fest as well.
Speaker 2:And please look out for other important alerts. We will be starting to do a Save the Date for our Pan Conference in Hill Day, which is in February, right up against the SAM Summit, which is February 5th and 6th of this year, and I just want to say that we hope that these sessions just make listeners understand and that it reaches our legislators and we can start to make better decisions about drug policies, especially regarding marijuana in this country. Again, thank you, Kristen, for being here. I'm just so pleased to have had you, and we wish everybody a happy rest of July.