Fortitude: Turning Tragedy into Action
A podcast by the Parent Action Network (PAN), a division of Smart Approaches to Marijuana (SAM), dedicated to amplifying the voices of parents whose lives have been devastated by the harmful effects of marijuana. Each episode features personal interviews with parents sharing their heart-wrenching stories of loss, addiction, and the impact on their families. Through these powerful narratives, PAN aims to educate, inspire, and mobilize listeners to take action against the widespread dangers of marijuana use.
Fortitude: Turning Tragedy into Action
CRAFT-ing a Conversation: A Mom Challenges Colorado's Marijuana Policies
The innocent-looking marijuana products lining dispensary shelves today bear little resemblance to the cannabis of previous generations. For Colorado single-mom, Heidi Lawrence, this stark reality became painfully clear when her 13-year-old daughter Ella began using concentrated "dabs" containing up to 95% THC.
Before marijuana entered their lives, Ella was thriving—a straight-A student excelling in a pre-professional ballet program with a bright future ahead. Then came the middle-of-the-night knock from police officers who'd received an anonymous tip about Ella posting substance use online. What followed was a nightmarish transformation that Heidi describes as her daughter being "kidnapped by alien forces and replaced by this completely different person."
Over five harrowing years, Ella cycled through multiple psychiatric hospitalizations, treatment centers, and periods of sobriety followed by relapse. The diagnosis eventually came: cannabis-induced psychosis progressing to bipolar disorder. Now 18, Ella struggles with daily functioning, having abandoned her education, ballet career, and childhood friendships.
Heidi's story challenges the prevailing narrative that marijuana is harmless. Living in Colorado—ground zero for legalization—she's witnessed firsthand how impossible regulation has become, with products readily available to teens through social media "plugs" (aka drug -dealers) who deliver directly to homes. Even more troubling is how the medical system remains ill-equipped to address marijuana intoxication, with many emergency rooms lacking proper testing protocols.
Through her pain, Heidi found purpose becoming a certified facilitator for Community Reinforcement and Family Training (CRAFT), helping other parents navigate similar crises. Her message to families centers on compassionate communication: "I realize how difficult this is, I realize it's everywhere, and I know there's a solution and I want to help you."
This conversation serves as both warning and resource guide for parents everywhere. As Heidi poignantly notes, "The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's community." Join us in building that community and advocating for the protections our children desperately need against today's high-potency marijuana products.
Follow PAN and SAM:
PAN:
https://parentaction.network/
https://x.com/parentactionSAM
https://www.facebook.com/parentactionnetworkSAM
SAM:
https://learnaboutsam.org/
https://x.com/learnaboutsam
https://www.facebook.com/learnaboutsam
Thank you. Parent Action Network is dedicated to amplifying the voices of families whose lives have been devastated by the harmful effects of marijuana, and I gave this podcast the name Fortitude, because I could think of no better word to describe the brave parents that stand up and tell their stories in the face of grief and adversity, to help fight an industry that has become predatory and preying on our children. So today I have another mom from Colorado, heidi Lawrence, here with us to talk about her daughter's journey with marijuana. So, heidi, thank you so much for being here with us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Heidi is from Colorado, so this is ground zero of when this problem started, and Colorado has a culture of having always accepted marijuana as a substance that was being used. So I'd really like to start by, of course, talking about what your life was like before marijuana became a factor in your daughter's life, but also I'd like to talk a little bit about what your stance was on marijuana and your feelings about legalization.
Speaker 2:Sure, you know, I grew up in the 90s. I'm a Gen Xer and never really thought much about marijuana being one of the harmful substances that you could use. As an experimental teenager Definitely didn't feel that way. When I had children, I thought, yeah, let's legalize marijuana. It's one of the least harmful things. It's quite medicinal for many people who suffer from various medical issues, and there was legislature pushed through for children who had seizure disorders and marijuana ended up being the thing that helped them. So I was very much for the legalization of marijuana until I realized that my daughter had a problem with it.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned how there was some evidence to say that marijuana could be used in certain conditions medically. But of course we now know that when we're talking about that, there are three FDA approved medications and that is medicine right, and they must be prescribed by an oncologist or a neurologist for very, very specific conditions and, like any other medication, once you're given that medication, there are a lot of contraindications of for use and everything. So that's not what we're talking about here today. That's marijuana as medicine, but the whole concept of medical marijuana and what happened in our country due to legalization is a completely different thing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, at first. Yeah, the signs, they weren't really there. Unfortunately, my daughter got. You know, like I grew up, you know it's like you had a joint or you rolled some bud. But my daughter got her hands on Dab, which is the sticky resin that usually contains very high potency levels of THC. It's heated up with the torch or fire source and then it's inhaled through a metal straw and I had no idea that it was going on, because there's virtually no smell and there were really no signs of what was happening until she started having really erratic behavior.
Speaker 1:Right, but before we talk about the behavior changes, can you tell us a little bit about like? What was life like before marijuana, even though marijuana was a thing and we had our stance? What your, your home life and your life as a family was like before this became a problematic factor in your life?
Speaker 2:Sure. So, um, it's myself and my son and my daughter, and my son is two years younger than my daughter. Her name's Ella, and you know we're a pretty normal, typical family. Both kids were involved in activities. Ella was virtually straight-A student. She was in a pre-professional ballet program where she was doing very, very well orchestrated ballet performances and practicing about three to four times a week, had lots of friends. You know, a happy, well-adjusted child that I would say. We really didn't have any issues with mental health, um, any kind of drug problems, nothing like that. So she was a pretty normal kid up until the point that she discovered marijuana.
Speaker 1:So then something happens, so so tell us that Sure.
Speaker 2:So first instance kind of came in um June of 2020 when we were in the middle of.
Speaker 2:COVID and 1.30 in the morning I get a knock on the door and it's the police and they said they had what out here in Colorado is called safe to tell through the schools, where a kid can make an anonymous report of another child being in trouble, and Ella had posted herself using substances online and posted it to Instagram. So somebody did a safe to tell and then that immediately went to the police department and they came and she was very erratic and had suicidal ideation and so had to go to the emergency room and then subsequently to a pediatric psychiatric facility. From that point, fast forward six months. Over a period of six months she was in and out of psychiatric hospital five, six times.
Speaker 2:Psychiatric hospital five, six times and just completely erratic behavior, suicidal ideation, screaming, yelling, breaking things. I mean it was kind of like my child was kidnapped by alien forces and replaced by this completely different person. And again, at the time I didn't know what was going on with drug use other than the one post she had made to social media. And so over the course of that time it then became aware that she was using dabs and it's almost like later on learned that it was cannabis induced psychosis which basically she had.
Speaker 1:So were there any blood tests in those first six months where she was in and out of emergency rooms or psychiatric centers? Were they doing drug testing and did you know that it was only marijuana? Did you suspect it was something else? Or were you aware from even just the video that it was marijuana and were you understanding that this was marijuana that was causing this? Or you still weren't really sure what was causing this?
Speaker 2:I wasn't really sure and then it came out over time. The main issue for her and she had experimented with some things but the main issue with her was she was using dabs almost all day, every day, and that was kind of what the main issue was Believe it or not. When you go to the ER they don't really do blood tests for marijuana they can do opioids they can do alcohol. But if you go, because we had another episode years later where she just couldn't stop vomiting.
Speaker 2:She had cannabinoid hyperemesis, where she just continually vomiting and they couldn't even test to see what her levels were there. And so that's the part. That's so frightening is that when you're in the hospital and if you have someone who's not being truthful with their use as many kids would be because they'd be afraid to get in trouble you can't even do a blood test to know that marijuana would be the cause of the psychotic episode or the whatever it is that's happening to cause the child to be in crisis. So that part frustrates me to no end, because I can buy tests through amazon and test the level of my kids urine, so why can't the er do it? So, yeah, it was. Um, it was evident that the main cause was dabs, which is the high frequency THC and did she admit to that use?
Speaker 2:She did, she did and then when I was kind of in her room cleaning out things, we eventually ended up sending her to a treatment center I would find little half circle burn marks on her sheets, on her clothes, and then realized all my metal straws from my water bottles were missing and came out that that's what was happening and again had no idea that that was taking place.
Speaker 1:Right. And so as this progresses with her and you said, fast forward a little bit that she ended up with CHS, tell us a little bit about that. So she had periods where treatment helped and she was doing well and she would relapse. Is that how it went down?
Speaker 2:So the first time. Yeah, she's been to treatment a total of three times over the past three to four years and she did have a period of sobriety of a full year between treatment and then time out of treatment. But ultimately the amount of children, teens, peers around her who are using the substance and for her it's providing some kind of relief to her ADHD, her anxiety and some other things that are going on. But you know it's hard for a kid who's trying to stay sober to stay sober in a state where marijuana is literally on every corner, in every high school bathroom, in every middle school bathroom almost.
Speaker 2:And that's the problem. She would have periods of time where she would be sober, and then she would relapse. So that part broke my heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so you started at middle school, so maybe 14, 15 years old, or did you say 12 years old?
Speaker 2:She was about 13 when she first was introduced to marijuana and dabs Yep, okay. And how old is she now? She is 18 now, so we've been on this journey for five years, wow.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow. And how's she doing currently?
Speaker 2:So, unfortunately, and you know there's no way to know for certain, you know there's no, there's no concise test for mental illness, but she has recently been diagnosed bipolar and I feel that it's a direct result from the psychotic episodes that she's had from marijuana, continued marijuana use and, um, you know, if anything it's exacerbated a problem that was potentially there. You know again, you don't know for sure what came first, but um, so she struggles a lot, you know, um, to lead a normal life.
Speaker 2:She didn't graduate high school, she dropped out of her ballet program, she lost all of her friends from growing up and she struggles. She struggles to just have, you know, a normal, regular day where she doesn't feel awful. So it's it, you know.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people think that parents are saying this and it's the, it's a rarity. But I'll tell you, between my son and my daughter and their friends, I know multiple children who have had various levels of issues with weed and multiple kids who've had to go to treatment and cannot stop and want to stop smoking marijuana, and they simply can't. So this is not like a rarity. This is now becoming what my at the time 14 year old son said Mom, this is an epidemic. And those were his words, wow. So yeah, I feel like it's important to tell the story because I just don't think it's on the radar with a lot of people, especially with many states joining the marijuana revolution of oh look at all the tax revenue this can bring into our state, without thinking of the long-term consequences that come alongside the legalization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, of course, we know that that's a falsehood.
Speaker 1:We know that those are the original smart approaches talking points that this was not creating the revenue for your state, that you think this was not having an impact on social inequities, this was not helping with crime in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 1:And that was the smart approaches to marijuana message in the beginning of legalization. You know what was it? 2012 to 2014, among the first couple of states, and then over time, like, while delivering that message, it was nonstop that Dr Sinek was hearing these stories, hearing these stories and and that's why, um, and while it took a long time to even get to that point, it was about three and a half years ago that he said, hey, we need to start the parent action network, like, we need to have an army of parents telling these stories, because I cannot believe the amount of parents that come to me and, and here we are and, like I said, between Johnny's ambassadors and every brain matters and Parent Action Network and so many others out there that have a network of parents all experiencing the same thing, all because of marijuana. How long can everyone keep ignoring this?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly, and you know, I I try to get involved in a legislature, legislature level here in colorado. The problem is, once the floodgates have been open, it's extremely impossible to regulate. And even things like, well, let's put, you know, warning signs on packages they've done that, but let's limit the amount that people can buy, let's do this, let's do that. You know, and and they just found out, some studies are being done locally, I believe through CU, that you know the THC amounts on packages aren't even correct.
Speaker 2:They have no way to know what is actually the level and there's no one regulating it to say oh okay, you know you're selling this marijuana, it's recreational. You're saying it's 38% THC. You know, no one knows, so the cat's out of the bag. Things have already been let go and unfortunately it is the kids who are suffering, because adults as well. But the bigger problem is the kids, whose brain development are being stifled at a very young age and sometimes not able to repair, because then they're developing lifelong problems and lifelong substance use disorder.
Speaker 1:And so in Ella's case, were there any treatment professionals and is she in any kind of treatment or regular recovery or on medications that you feel are helping, anything that you'd like to share with other families out there that may not have found any kind of support yet? Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we've been through the gamut of different resources out there. She has gone to intensive outpatient programs after psychiatric stay. She has gone to three different mental health and substance use disorder treatment facilities for a 30-day, a 45-day and a 90-day at different time points.
Speaker 2:We have a psychiatrist she sees regularly for medication management. In the beginning it was just trying to control the symptoms that became part of her usage Suicidal ideation, anxiety, unspecified mood disorders, what they landed on before they diagnosed her. So we've, we've tried a little bit of everything. They diagnosed her, so we've, we've tried a little bit of everything. And I will say the frustrating part is I feel like, as I am a I'm an Al-Anon member. I think they're great for for help as well.
Speaker 2:But I got myself a parent coach specifically for parents who need help guiding their kids if they have a substance use disorder. So I've done a lot of things, but I would say I've had to seek it out myself and really dig in and do the research and spend a lot of time and money, quite frankly, to get help, because there's not a lot out there for substance use disorder to begin with, and for adolescents it's even worse to find resources. So there are resources out there. It's just you really do have to know where to go, and I think that's why I do talk about the situation because, um, I wish more people had talked about it sooner. I wish somebody would have told me try this, go here, do this Um, pretty plugged in now. But for the parents who are just kind of beginning this journey with their child, it can be really overwhelming and quite devastating to. You know your feelings of being a good parent and I think you know all of us want the best for our children. But what do you do when your child has?
Speaker 2:a substance use disorder at 13, 14, 15 years old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so unexpectedly, you know, from what is touted as a benign substance? Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, this affects, like you said, the whole family, and you have a son younger than your daughter and he seems like a smart boy to say that this is an epidemic, because I would agree that he's correct, and it sounds to me like he's probably staying away from substances, which is a good thing thing, and unfortunately, he's had his own struggles, but it hasn't been on the level as a sister, that's the thing, I think.
Speaker 2:You just don't know how this is going to affect your child until it's too late, and then it's almost like there's a switch flipped in their brain where it's like the point of no return. But I think he and his friends, they're experimenting the way normal teenagers do, and some of them have really struggled as well, and so it's really affecting the whole family. It's affecting all the kids that I know around us, and it's sad because I feel like this generation has really suffered the most, because it started in, I think, 2012, here in Colorado, and here we are, 13 years later, 14 years later, and now we're seeing the effects of what happens when you allow for legalization.
Speaker 1:Right and claim to be regulating. Let's put it that way, exactly Because it's impossible to regulate this and I understand that there are good agencies out there, like One Chance to Grow Up, that have to have a little bit of a different messaging because it is Colorado and you're not going to close these floodgates and put the worms back in the can marijuana. Our stance is still 100% that this is an absolute disaster and that this substance should not be legalized. My greatest wish being a New Yorker here, because New York is an absolute despicable mess. It's horrible, and not just in New York City. Many outsiders from other states think of New York, they think of New York City, but I live in a very rural area.
Speaker 1:There are some beautiful counties and New York is pretty big and this is happening in the most remote of New York counties and in your affluent rural areas. It is everywhere. I cannot drive down the road without passing a gas station that's selling these products. I walked into my favorite deli. I'm so sad because they have my favorite pasta ever. I'm never going there again.
Speaker 1:They had a floor to ceiling locked cabinet filled with not just Delta eight, Delta 10, Deltas I'd never heard of, and Kratom oh my God, the drugstore heroin. I could not believe what was in that cabinet and I'm like this is insanity. And while I'm not ignorant that that kids are going to experiment in their teen years I still was against it. But I was always against legalization because I just didn't see, and I still don't see see, how it can be a good thing. I think there's more potential for it to be a problem than not.
Speaker 1:And just because we have legal cigarettes and just because we have alcohol legalized and quote unquote regulated, there's still so many problems associated with those substances. So we need to recognize that, as opposed to legalizing another substance that has a complicated molecular makeup first of all, very complicated and why legalize another substance. So I've never been pro-legalization and I just cannot believe the mess that it is here in New York and I really wish that there could be a brave state that turned around and said you know what we're done with this, Like reverse it, Kind of like Oregon did with measure 110. You can reverse a measure, so something for our states to think about.
Speaker 2:I wish that too, but I think that the revenue they get from the taxes, unfortunately, is filling some gaps in their budgets and and that's. And then you have the folks that are really pushing. They're out in capitol hill and they're they're pushing for their. You know this should be legalized. This is medicine, this is not that harmful, and so it's the voices that, again, once the floodgates are open, it's just too late, and so any state that's thinking about it I think they, they should look at Colorado first and foremost. We've been doing this the longest One of the states been doing this the longest, and there's just newspaper article after study after newspaper article that talk about all of the issues that we have now as a result of allowing for legalization now as a result of allowing for legalization.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, it's so true. And being that you are in Colorado, you said that you know that, your son and even your daughters, that everybody's using it, everybody's doing it. That includes a lot of adults. So do you have those conversations with friends and the parents? Do they understand what you've been through, or is it both sides of the coin? Yeah, I definitely think is it both sides of the coin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely think it's both sides of the coin and I definitely think that my daughter's level of issues with marijuana are definitely more extreme than some. But I think that some of these kids are watching their parents use it as if it's not a big deal. The parents are leaving it and sit out in the open in a drawer that's easily accessible someplace in the house. They know their parents use it, they know where to find it and look to be quite honest, if they don't have it in the house or if the parents aren't using it, they can just go on their phone on Snapchat and figure out how to get it. In five minutes They'll show up at your front door. I've had called plugs. They're not dealers anymore. Plugs at my front door. Just pull up to my front door.
Speaker 2:And I also am pretty connected to the police the local police and there's just too many of them. They can't catch them. They shut down their profiles online and then they find another place. But I think it goes both ways. Some people have seen what it does and I think the one good thing is that it's inspiring more conversations to be had with parents and their teens and listen. This is not the marijuana of our day. This is not, you know, less than 5% THC that was in the marijuana we were introduced to. This is some of this bud is up to 40% THC level and the dab pens and the extractions are 80 to 95% THC or above. So I think the conversation is being had, but I do think that a lot of folks have that mindset that, oh, this isn't going to happen to me.
Speaker 1:This isn't going to happen to my child yeah.
Speaker 1:And again, we're not saying that it will happen to absolutely every adult and we're not saying that it will happen to absolutely everyone, but if it happens to one person, it's one person too many. And the fact is that it is happening to our youth and young adults whose brains are still developing, and if we could prevent even that, maybe even raising the age to get it and I mean again, they're going to get it right. So that's a problem. Yeah, Can you repeat that term? Because I consider myself, especially as a prevention educator, very educated on this issue and I have never heard that term that you used as opposed to the drug dealer.
Speaker 2:Oh plug, yeah, oh plug. I have never heard that. Oh plug, Yep.
Speaker 1:Plug, wow yeah.
Speaker 2:And, honestly, you know the music these kids are listening to. Some of the this music is referring to the plugs. Meeting the plugs, wow, yeah, so that's kind of the new terminology for a dealer, at least out here in Colorado. I'm not sure if it's a regional thing. It is mainstream in some of the music nowadays that the kids are listening to.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, and you know, I've become, we've very open I think that's the one thing I would say very open conversations with both of my kids and the fact that we can have open conversations without me going completely punitive on what they're telling me. They tell me a lot of different things and I've learned what is actually going on and how bad this problem is. And that's the part that you know. Kids, rightfully so, are going to do things that they don't tell their parents about and they're going to not share. But this is widespread. It's even the quote unquote good kids that are athletes and good students. They're into this as well. And if the parents think that that's not happening, I beg to differ with you. If you did a drug test on your child right now, you can buy it on Amazon, right?
Speaker 1:now.
Speaker 2:THC, yes or no, and it stays in your system a long time. So I think that's the issue is having open conversations, talking about it. If your child is saying you know, I went to a party and somebody offered it to me and I tried it. Okay, well, how did it make you feel? What did you think you know? Was it scary? Well, how did it make you feel? What did you think you know was it scary? Was it this? Was it that? Just allowing that door to be open?
Speaker 1:And also, I'm here for you and I'm not judging you and I'm not angry.
Speaker 2:I love you and want to help you. Exactly, exactly, because that's how we're going to have the conversations that need to be had about that. This really can be a problem, and it's not a scare tactic. It is a thing that is happening on a daily basis all throughout the country, and I think it's really just about educating yourself as a parent and then educating your child.
Speaker 1:Yep, and while you're calm and composed on this podcast and we're we're having a nice conversation about this, I'm imagining that when you're going through this in the, in the height of the moment and and in the throes of it, it is chaotic and traumatizing and upsetting. And so, even though you're in Colorado, how did you find Johnny's ambassadors, like, were you looking for resources or did somebody else mention it to you? How did you begin to find some help and support?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will say having a parent coach and in the Boulder area, which is Boulder County, is where we are there are a lot of those types of folks who, specifically are parent coaches for parents who have children that have a substance use disorder, and this person was a wealth of information and plugged me into so many different networks and so many different resources. Um, because I was just the hysterical mess. There's no way I could talk about these things without bursting into tears in the past and, um, being plugged into or talking to other parents, you start to meet other parents whose kids have been through the same thing and then you share resources. But, um, but yeah, just just having a parent coach to help me was hugely helpful so that I could figure out what to do and where to go. Because, like I said, it's one thing to have someone that you know has a substance use disorder.
Speaker 2:It's another thing to have a young person where your general practitioner is probably going to look at you like what kind of parent are you that you have a child like this? Not all, but there's a lot of judgment and shame around this topic and, unfortunately, if you talk to folks who have lifelong substance abuse disorders. They started in their teens. They started when they were, you know, nine, 10, 12, 13. And so this is the time to attempt to talk about it, stop it before it becomes a really lifelong challenge that you can't, you can't get away from.
Speaker 2:So yeah, the resources that are out there. I don't think there's there's enough being said, but I personally, you know, make sure to tell as many people as I can because I just I want to share what I know about this process.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's why we have you here. And I will say, I mean, could you imagine? Not that it's a. It's a tragic thing that Johnny passed and it is a it's a miracle that Laura was in the position that she was in as a public speaker and a very renowned voice in public speaking and was able to bring a lot of awareness to this. But where would we be without her?
Speaker 1:Really, because she brought this to light and I mean, yes, there was smart approaches to marijuana, which has been educating about this for years and years and years, but we really did not have those recovery resources and those treatment resources, because that's not the kind of agency we were, you know. So it's really wonderful that we can all come together and work together and have our niche. You know, like Laura has the educational platform with the high school curriculum and middle school curriculum. And then we have the policy side of things and being able to advocate and lobby thanks to the connections on Capitol Hill and the fact that Dr Sabet used to work for the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy. So that's fabulous and how we get to lobby on Capitol Hill. And then there's the other agencies that are all working together to create awareness and education.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, together to create awareness and education. Yeah, absolutely, and we so appreciate it for those, those of us who are literally living it day to day, appreciate that work being done, because I think that's really where the changes are going to ultimately be made. You know, if it's if, if we are making it illegal to buy, or more punitive to buy, or someone gets caught, you know, trying to distribute, then that's where, that's where the change is going to take place, as well as the education on what this really does. And it's not just folks like yourself, who that's literally your main mission is to talk about these things, but regular folk like myself, just a typical suburban mom in a Colorado neighborhood, and this can happen.
Speaker 2:And so, um, yeah, I think, I think in Colorado we definitely are more fortunate because we do have a lot more resources for recovery and for, um, you know what to do? Um, I'm actually a CRAFT certified facilitator. So CRAFT is community reinforcement and family training and it's a really wonderful program. It's free and I felt so strongly about it when I was helping my daughter that I got myself certified and I facilitate classes and I share it with everybody I can because that, in addition to a lot of other resources that we have here in Colorado. I think we're more fortunate, at least because we've been kind of doing this longer, so we've established some networks of support, so that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:And so that actually leads me to my next question that you basically just answered. A lot of parents take their pain and the trauma they've been through and turn it into something better, and some people can do that on a grander scale than others, but we are finding so many parents that are starting nonprofits, that are becoming family peer advocates, and so the fact that you're doing the same, my question would be what else has helped you? And so I would think that this has helped you by passing on this information. It just makes what's gone on with Ella have purpose.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. Yeah, between the craft facilitation and I'm a definite proponent of Al-Anon, nar-anon and Mar-Anon which is marijuana anonymous and those programs are for family members of loved ones with substance use disorders and they're free and they're peer led and I think there's a lot of good to be had in those types of programs because not everyone can afford to pay a private family coach to help you with these kinds of things. And so I would say, between the coach, between 12 step recovery programs there's a program out here called Natural Highs that Avani Dilger runs and it's a teen program for finding alternatives for youth, and then there's several other youth-led recovery-type programs, sobriety programs and then, in terms of, for myself, just finding resources to help regulate my nervous system. So yoga you can do, youtube yoga channels and sharing and talking and just making sure that you don't isolate, because I think I did a lot of that in the beginning because of the shame and stigma surrounding having a child who had a problem with substances.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of shame and judgment, and so I think that's not something I want to promote. I want to promote community because, you know, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's community, and so building a community where we are supporting each other and lifting each other up and sharing resources. I think that's the place I live in now. But it's taken a long time to get to that place. I spent a lot of time just case managing my daughter's situation and filling out forms and talking to social workers and finding a psychiatrist and looking for an IOP. I mean it's exhausting and nobody tells you how to do it, you just kind of have to find your way through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good point. It's a lot, and you're doing this as a single mom, no less, aren't you? Yes, I am, yeah. So, oh my gosh, heidi, I just give kudos to each and every one of these parents.
Speaker 1:You've all been through such harrowing journeys and, like we said earlier, there's a similar thread in that this is all marijuana related, but each of your journeys is somewhat different and this never manifests the same way between any two people. So it's just quite unbelievable what we're going through as a country and what families are going through, and that's why I'm doing this, because I really hope to raise awareness that this is happening across the entire country, and you'll always see on the podcast, when you're looking up the episodes, it always has the name of the person that's been interviewed and the state they're from, so that we can see the first 10 or so. We're a different state every time. Now we're having a lot in Georgia, a lot in Colorado, texas, but it's happening everywhere and it's just devastating and and my heart goes out to each and every one of you, and to you and to Ella and to your son, and and I just hope that Ella finds peace and does well. Has she taken up any of her favorite things again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's a bit of an artist, so she's gotten back into doing art and you know she really struggled with trying to find a job and getting out of bed and being motivated to do school. So she's started doing dog walking and babysitting and things like that so that she that bring her joy, because things can be stressful enough just day to day. And so she's an animal lover. She absolutely loves dogs and so that is one thing that absolutely thrills her and brings her joy.
Speaker 2:And she has a lot of friends. She's a very generous individual. She, I think, one day will be a great peer counselor you know if once she gets a brain that's fully mature. But I think having that empathy and that lived experience is huge. And I always say, gosh, you know you've been in good treatment and then you've been in not so good treatment and I think we need to do better. I think we can do better and so one day my hope is that she can walk alongside me in sharing her experience and her journey and trying to give hope to people who are also struggling with marijuana.
Speaker 1:We're hearing that more and more from our young adults that are recovering and doing well. I'm sure you're familiar with Kobe Wolf and Linda, his mom. They're from Montana. Kobe was on the Dr Phil show with a couple of other parents the Bacchuses Aubrey Adams from yeah, I do know the Bacchuses. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And so Kobe is someone who experienced psychosis so severely and I mean they've told their stories so many times and he's doing well now. He's actually working for the facility that cared for him, and so he's become one of those young adults 23, who is wanting to speak out and will hopefully be advocating with us on Capitol Hill in February. So that's what we're working forward to. And we just spoke with another young man, 30, and his dad, and he too is recovering and been sober for over a year and just wants to speak out about this as a young person, to say hey, hey, this is not okay. In their generation, it's not okay. So so kudos to Ella for having that insight and wanting to get better, and and I think that's another important point we want to bring out is that Ella does want to get better. Sometimes it's the substance. We know how very difficult it is to get off marijuana successfully.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's the thing that frustrates me and the conversations that I hear, and even in some of the recovery communities.
Speaker 2:You know, and I don't know the comparison to other types of substances, but marijuana is extremely hard.
Speaker 2:If you have an addiction, it is one of the hardest to get off of is what I'm hearing from folks and that's the problem, you know, it's me, it's it's being retained in fat cells in the body and so there's just something about the brain chemistry with marijuana that somehow it's just like a magnet and and I think that's something I would encourage people as well the craft program talks about harm reduction, and so I think harm reduction is something we need to have bigger communication about, because just cold turkey and just zero sobriety for somebody who is in it.
Speaker 2:If we can talk about harm reduction and plans for reducing usage, that kind of thing, I think someone's going to be a lot more successful than I relapsed and that's it. You know, I know that the person has zero tolerance. So I also like to, you know, say that if you know that your child has this problem, to validate first and foremost, and say I realize how difficult this is, I realize that it's everywhere and I know there's a solution and I want to help you. I think flipping that narrative on the communication is really important.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that's a great message and a great message to end with because, again, we know, as you said, that marijuana withdrawal is one of the worst. We did a webinar on that with Dr Letitia Bader a few months ago to discuss this because, as you said, our parent guest was Cindy. Her daughter, haley had taken her own life but she was in severe withdrawal and her mom just didn't know it, and that has to be well understood. As I said earlier, marijuana is a difficult substance to understand. It's very complex. I really appreciate you sharing your story. I so very appreciate what you're doing to pass on your knowledge and what you've learned and your experience, and I think that's a great message that we have to flip that narrative and parents have to come to their children with a manner of support over punitive behaviors and try not to get angry. It's not always easy Nobody's saying that it is but we really need to support our kids that are experiencing this particular problem.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. I think that's part of the general thing that we need to change as a society as a whole and not making it a shameful and punitive thing to get help. It's. We need to come together and say, instead of, you know, outcasting people and saying you need to go away to a facility, get better, than come right back to the environment that made you sick in the first place, we need to work together and find a way to have a better environment for everybody so that they don't feel like there's no hope in recovery, because there is hope. I think we're not quite there yet in terms of what else needs to be done to support people with additional resources so it's possible to live a life in recovery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I remember when we first spoke, something that Bronwyn, our project coordinator, and I do is we gather quotes just for future reference and future campaigns and maybe future running threads on our webpage. But I remember that you said you can't escape it, it's everywhere. You can't escape it, so we have to manage it, and I think leaving with the message of being there for our kids and just coming at them with a more understanding point of view is just such a great message. Heidi, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story. I really loved having this conversation. Again, I do this hoping that each episode leaves all listeners with a profound understanding of the urgent need for awareness, for better regulations and the power of community support in addressing the challenges posed by today's marijuana products. So thank you again. It was really wonderful having you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for letting me share our story. I appreciate it Sure.
Speaker 1:And I'd just like to remind our listeners that if you're interested in being a guest on the Fortitude podcast, you can feel free to reach out to me at Chrissy at learnaboutsamorg, and that's C-R-I-S-S-Y. At learnaboutsamorg, you do have to be a member of the network for me to interview on the podcast, so if you're not already signed up to receive our emails, newsletters and alerts, please feel free to sign up. You can go to our page at learnaboutsamorg slash pan, and we're going to continue this fight. We do legislative advocacy and any parent that's willing to speak up. We'd love to hear your story. We'd love to have you be part of this network and come with us to Capitol Hill. Thank you again, heidi, and thank you listeners for continuing to listen, and God bless everyone.