Parent Action Network: A Conversation with Dr. Kevin Sabet on Bringing His Vision To Life

Four years ago, Parent Action Network (PAN) starts with a simple realization: facts matter, but stories change minds. Crissy sits down with SAM CEO, Dr. Kevin Sabet, to unpack why organizing parents becomes the missing force in the marijuana legalization debate and why the human toll keeps showing up in our inbox every week. We talk about the loneliness of prevention work, the attacks advocates face, and the way one family’s loss can become a lasting purpose for policy change. 

Kevin shares the story that still stops him in his tracks, Sally Schindel’s son Andy and the note he left behind. We dig into why those words cut through talking points, and how today’s high-potency cannabis, youth mental health concerns, and normalization collide in real homes and schools. If you’ve ever heard “it’s just marijuana,” we explain why that line falls apart when impairment affects other people, from bus drivers to pilots to public safety. 

We also go deep on the New York Times and what it means when a legacy outlet finally admits “America has a marijuana problem” while still clinging to regulation. From there, we zoom out to Kevin’s book One Nation Under the Influence and the wider drug crisis, including fentanyl, safe supply drug substitution debates, psychedelics, and the prevention strategies that actually show results. If you care about smart drug policy, youth prevention, and advocacy that moves the needle, hit play, share this with a friend, and leave us a review.

To learn more about the myths of marijuana and the drug policy crisis in this country you can find Dr. Sabet's books here:

Reefer Sanity

Smokescreen

One Nation Under the Influence

If you have a story to share please reach out to us at PAN@learnaboutsam.org 

Follow PAN and SAM:

PAN:
https://parentaction.network/
https://x.com/parentactionSAM
https://www.facebook.com/parentactionnetworkSAM

SAM:

https://learnaboutsam.org/
https://x.com/learnaboutsam
https://www.facebook.com/learnaboutsam

Transcript

Why Parent Stories Drive Change

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Greetings, listeners. This is Chrissy Groenwigan back with another episode of the Fortitude Podcast. As many of you know, I have been interviewing the parents who attended our Hill Day. But April marks the four-year anniversary of the start of Pan. And so I thought it was a perfect time to do a special edition episode with our renowned CEO, Dr. Kevin Sabet. So, Kevin, thank you so much for making the time. I know how busy you are.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Well, thanks so much for having me. It's an honor.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

We talked so much with our parents that the parents' stories are whatnot what matter. And while science and stats and data is all very important, of course, it's these stories that really drive this message home. And when I speak about you, when we're introducing new people into the network, I always tell them my favorite line that for me, you are the Nostradamus of this. You literally predicted what was going to happen in this industry. So I'd really like to talk about how and why you decided to start Pan.

The Story That Started PAN

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah. Well, thanks so much for having me again. I appreciate it. A big fan of the podcast and of course all the work you're doing. And we're we're honored to have you and Bronwyn and everybody on the team working towards us. Jamie does a lot of work with us and you know the various parents that are around so many of them doing uh very, you know, incredible work. Um, you know, I've been in doing this field, I've been in this field for a long time. I started as a teenager, and you know, we've been arguing the facts for 30 years, um, and they're very important. It's important to talk to people about the risks and what the science says because we have to be informed by evidence. But um it just became clear to me that, you know, it was amazing how much progress the legalization side has made with no science, which is interesting. And how have that how have they done that? Well, they've been very effective at using, you know, sort of stories and individuals uh because those really tug at the heart. And I thought, well, you know, frankly, we should be doing that too. I mean, there are now so many stories as a result of these bad policies and so many lives that have been affected that we can reach people's hearts that way, maybe even better than peer-reviewed studies. And whether that's good or not is another point entirely, whether it should be the case. But I think it just is the case. And so it was really important, and also just it's not just about convincing other people, it's really about giving more purpose to our work and and seeing the human toll, reminding us why we're doing what we're doing. Because this can be a very lonely business, it can be a rough business, it can be a business where your family is attacked, you're attacked physically, psychologically, every way you can think of. And so it's important, how do we keep going? And one way is to remember the Andes of the world and the Randys of the world. And um it's it's just really important to do that. So it was really obvious to me we needed to start organizing parents again. The last thing I'll also say about this, and the reason why, is because, you know, having grown up in this field for the last 30 years, I grew up with a lot of the um pioneers of the original parent movement that kind of in some ways took uh took me under their wings. People like Sue Rushi, Joyce Nolepka, Otto Moulton. These are people who, you know, seeing the negative consequences of permissive drug policy in the 70s from all political backgrounds, organized very effectively and changed minds from the, you know, from Bob DuPont, who they changed his mind, to, you know, legislators all over the country. And so just really important to understand that there is such a thing as something as parent power and that it's it's very important.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I remember you telling me when I first began that there was one particular story, and she has been a guest on our podcast, Sally Schindle. Can you tell our audience a little bit about that story and how Sally came to you and what you do in honor of Sally and Andy?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah. I mean, you know, I met Sally uh, gosh, it was before the ballot initiative uh in Arizona when when she you know approached us and and she you know showed me that that that note that Andy left, and I'll never forget it. And um, that's just always been seared into my mind when he said that uh that the marijuana killed his soul. And you know, that's four simple words having such an impact on somebody. I was greatly impacted by that because we are in the business again of souls and lives and hearts. It's just that we have to always remember that. Um, that's why we're doing this. And her coming to me with that and saying that um some of the stuff she's read of mine has had given her purpose and hope always just has always stuck with me.

New York Times Shifts On Legalization

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah, she was very open on her episode and she actually shared the full letter with us, and it was very profound. But she always talks about how you told her that you carry that letter to this day wherever you go. And I know that it's a fact because I have seen it and you have showed it to us. And I remember seeing you back in 2019 when I was a prevention specialist in New York and I came to a presentation, and you actually mentioned that and took that letter out of your pocket while doing your presentation. And again, that was pretty far back, you know. So these stories are just building more and more and more. And even back then, we didn't know it was going to become this bad with the mental health issues with our youth. So it brings me to the fact that we know that the culture is catching up with the science on marijuana, and even the New York Times editorial board came out and said legalization has been a complete failure. Unfortunately, their conclusion is still off compared to ours, um, arguing that legalization just needs to be better regulated. So this article was a great victory for you. Can you talk a little bit about why that is and share more about your history with the New York Times?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah, absolutely. And actually, we're gonna go into depth on this, where I interviewed the writer of that editorial on our new podcast, uh, which uh we're launching it for Sam called High Stakes. And uh that'll be coming out very soon, but you still just can look for High Stakes. It's already on the Apple and Spotify platform, so they'll know the minute uh episode gets dropped. It's just being edited now. But it's it is really important for me. I mean, look, I have been reading the New York Times for a long time, obviously, seminal newspaper in this country. And um I uh, you know, I'll never forget in 2016 when they came out, or no, sorry, 2014, I believe, when they came out with a six-part series called, you know, repeal prohibition again. And it was really a gut punch because, you know, the New York Times history, interestingly, had not been pro-legalization beforehand. Uh there was a very famous executive editor of the Times named A. M. Rosenthal. And A.M. Rosenthal dedicated many columns to the dangers of drugs, talked about it a lot. And uh your listeners can look into those archives, very good pieces. But then, you know, things changed. And in 2014, they came out with this thing, and it was essentially written by the editorial board and informed by some very pro-drug professors who we now know admittedly use drugs like heroin on a regular basis and think there's no problem with it. Um, and um it was really a gut punch. It was awful. And I I immediately wanted to talk to the editorial board, and I, you know, we tried to reach them and they ignored us. And then finally in 2019, when things were coming to a head in the state of New York, I think they felt forced to have to take a meeting with us. And so I went there really alone. Uh, and well, we had our um one of our comms people with us, who um, but it was me and him, and but they were asking all the questions for me, and it was about 30 people in that room. It was a lot of people, it was way more than the editorial board, I believe. It was staff writers and other writers and editors. They they wanted, you know, they wanted to, I guess they all wanted to throw tomatoes at me or something, but basically they were there. And um, you know, I went in that building and you know, essentially they looked at what I said with a scance, you know. They were they were very disapproving in many ways with what I was saying, everything I was saying about the harms and about how we didn't want this in New York and and etc. And uh they just uh they didn't I don't think any of that registered with them. And then finally, we I had uh I had realized that editorial board had also changed a little bit, and actually somebody who had done a profile for me with Vox, which was Ezra Klein as Ezra Klein's um piece, who's also a writer for the Times, um named Herman Lopez was on the editorial board. And I thought, well, maybe there's a chance something will change because he's more thoughtful. I mean, we don't agree on everything, but he's definitely more thoughtful than some of the folks I encountered into that meeting I had. But I never thought my wildest dreams I would see a headline that said America has a marijuana problem. Yeah. I I that I couldn't believe it because they were downplaying that so much. And so just seeing that, you know, recently was just I it's hard to describe how important it was to me because of the history I had with them. And, you know, they did stick with their conclusion. We just need to regulate it more. But I really think they stuck to that conclusion because they're so institutionally tied to legalization. Like they that would be too far right now. I I I have hope that in the future that might that's gonna change, but it was just gonna be too far right now. But what they did, it didn't, and I and I and there were some people that said, Kevin, why are you liking this? They still want legalization. They, in fact, it's worse because they're kind of saying there's a way to do it safely when we know there isn't, and that can that can lure in a lot of you know well-meaning people. And I understand that point, but I saw in that editorial the bigger picture. It was less important what the policy was, because that's policy. It was more important what they were saying about the harms. And sure enough, the response on social media, on X, whether it was from the left or even the right, that sort of doesn't like the New York Times, they still use it as a standard. The fact that this, you know, they were that this thing was talked about for weeks and it changed many people's minds. I know that because wow, if the New York Times is admitting they were wrong, maybe I should too. It gave people permission to admit they were wrong on this issue. Right. And I think that's just so important.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Wow. Yeah, it really was something. And again, we're hearing more and more. There are so many more articles and editorials and stories, even from uh people other than parents coming to Pam. We're hearing hearing more and more stories. And then, of course, we look for those parents because we'd love to have them here with us, you know, advocating on the hills. But it's it's really something, and it's so upsetting. You know, Bronwyn and I say all the time that we love our job and we love doing this work and we we honor these parents, but it's really very sad to say that we have a full-time job doing what we do because we spend almost half of every week welcoming more people into the network. And so that's hearing more stories every single week of every single month of every single year that we're here. And that's not an exaggeration, you know. So it's really hard. And I will tell you that um there are many parents that come to us however they find us. You know, some have never even heard of smart approaches to marijuana, which is very interesting. And that's when we have the opportunity to talk about smart approaches to marijuana and you, of course, and how how we got here. And so that's where I use my famous line about you being the most dredamos of this, because really you are. You you've been saying this for well over 10 years now, and you were right, you know, and and to us, that's very important that you were right about this, and we have to keep fighting. And so marijuana is so much a part of what we do at Salmon Pan. And many listeners know that you've written Re for Sanity and Smoke Screen, but your latest book, One Nation Under the Implement, is about much more than just marijuana. It's about the drug crisis in our country and the history of drug prevention and what we can do. Can you talk about why you wrote this book and why now?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, I mean, you know, in some ways, um, there are there are a couple reasons, I think. Um one is I think the fentanyl crisis has reawokened the country to drugs in a way that really hasn't happened probably since the crack epidemic. And um, you know, when that happens, it's good because there's more awareness out there uh about it. That's the good side of it. Obviously, it's horrible what's happening in terms of the numbers with overdoses. But I also think that uh, you know, it has made many people um become experts overnight, so-called experts, and think that they have the solutions. And some of those solutions can be good. Um, there are great prevention groups that never would have been here if it wasn't for what happened to their child. So, for example, Song for Charlie and the group, the work that they're doing is amazing. But then on the other side of the equation, it's also allowed for very dangerous policies to come into play because it says, hey, we're having an emergency crisis. We got to stop this at any point, any any means necessary. And by any means necessary, means very radical extreme things. So, for example, in Canada, a program they're trying to expand to the US, which is they call it safe supply, which is really just a drug substitution program where you give prescribed opioids, and of course, we know how that story ended before in this country, but prescribed opioids to people with a heroin or fentanyl, I should say, opioid addiction, so that they use that as opposed to the fentanyl, which is gonna kill them, and at least the opioids will be a slower death, I guess, is the logic. Um, you know, because it won't be adulterated, so to speak, so they can just be addicted their whole life and then hopefully not die, although many of them will, um, because we look at it, we look at the overdose epidemic in this country about pills. Uh, and of course, what's really happening is that those users still want fentanyl. They're just now selling these pills to naive users, the people that aren't going to start on fentanyl, who would say on Monday they'll never use fentanyl and on Saturday they're using it. But those naive users, and then using that money to buy the fentanyl, which their brain wants. And just these very, very problematic issues and problematic policies. And, you know, it was clear to me this is way more than marijuana. This is about the same law, a lot of the same lobby that wants to legalize marijuana now moving to psychedelics and to opioids and stimulants, et cetera. And so I was very concerned about that. The other thing that I saw was there are there are some really great programs out there and strategies being implemented that are really making a difference. So you can look at, you know, I talk about Iceland with prevention, and it's kind of a weird place to think about prevention, but they have one of the most successful prevention, you know, strategies in the world. You look at a place like um uh, you know, Hawaii, what they did with uh with with with people on probation and parole in the criminal justice system, also you sort of strange to think about Hawaii. But uh, you know, there are these pockets of promise around the country. And I thought to myself, imagine if we brought all those all to scale in a way that we've never done before. So it really is a call for countries to do that. And, you know, it also looks at the psychedelic issue. It looks like what's happening in Portugal and all the misperceptions in Portugal. It looks what's happening in can, you know, like I said, in Canada. It looks at so it really was a wide-ranging look. And I just felt that it needed to happen because there was so much misinformation there that has come with the fentanyl crisis.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Right, right. And, you know, it's interesting for us too, because our parents get, you know, we're very in tune to them. And so they get nervous. They say, well, well, is is everything okay? It's smart approaches to marijuana. Like Kevin's not gonna move away from the marijuana issue. And so we have to reassure them of that. And yeah, and and that's it's it's an interesting concern. And then also you mentioned other um drugs like the psychedelics, because I mean, we've said in prevention forever that we're never gonna eradicate drug use, you know, we're never gonna eradicate drugs in in this nation. And there's always gonna be something. So I think your book in some ways actually prepares us for that and lets us know that we're always gonna keep fighting as well. And from the pan perspective, I just wanna let our listeners know that while we are focused on marijuana issues and most of our stories are stories where marijuana is the drug of choice that became the problem. We also do have pan FDPS, which is the foundation for drug policy solutions, where we are um interviewing and taking in those stories from parents who have had issues with other drugs, not just fentanyl, but like kratom, uh mushrooms, and all the harms that come along with those substances. So that's much smaller. And yes, our focus is marijuana, but we are building there as well because we're always going to want to add.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

And we should, because and we should, because on the one hand, while we are focused on marijuana because it's it's the a drug that is the most prolific, it's a drug that's seen the most increase. It's the only drug really where there's been a big increase. Um, you know, we also know that addiction isn't substance specific. And so it's really important to look at the big picture. And yeah, I mean, look, I I've uh you know, I I felt like I wanted to write another book. I felt like this was the most compelling argument I could bring. I felt like I had said a lot about marijuana in my previous two books, Reef for Sanity and Smoke Screen. Doesn't mean that I won't, I mean, I'm still gonna write about marijuana and I'm you know, I'm I'm thinking about what that is. There's been a lot of new things. For example, this hemp issue is another twist that frankly since Smokescreen has really come up. So there are a lot of issues still with marijuana, to be told, but I just felt like there needed to be something that zoomed out a little bit that looked at all the drugs, because you can apply everything I said to marijuana, everything I said in that book to marijuana. It's actually not a a non-marijuana book. In many ways, marijuana is still very prominent. Um, but it's looking at it from a different perspective and bringing in other drugs as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Right. I know we mentioned it earlier. You happened to mention Sourouche and a parent movement. Can we talk about that a little bit more? Um how a parent movement is important and how that kind of drove some of your thoughts in creating Pan and how parents can influence prevention policies.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Sure. Well, it's a good history. So, I mean, in the mid-70s, basically in Atlanta, there was a woman named Keith Shuhart, and they were having a birthday party uh for their oldest daughter, who was turning 13, and they realized that the party, these well, they they basically they were in the backyard. The parents, I think, were inside. Then when they went outside, they saw the children were using, you know, marijuana basically and like drugs like PCP. I mean, this was crazy. They were shocked. They called the parents of the kids the next day, and uh the parents were also shocked. The parents did not know what was going on, they didn't know these drugs were available, they didn't really know anything about them. And so from that, they formed the first parent peer group. Um, they founded a group called Pride, which is Parents Resource Institute for Drug Education at Georgia State. And that's also where basically about a year later, uh, Sue Rushi noticed a lot of shops in her neighborhood were selling drug paraphernalia, which was basically the marketing arm of the drug culture. Um, and she reached out to other parents. They formed the first parent community group called National Families in Action. Um, and they led the efforts to ban these paraphernalia shops, and the Supreme Court also uh agreed with them. And this was happening all over the country. I mean, you had Carla Lowe in California that was looking at this. You had again Otto Moulton in Massachusetts. I mentioned him earlier. So there were a lot of these groups that were coming up, and and the Pride Group and the national group called National Federation of Parents, with Joyce Nalepka, as I mentioned, in Washington, they kind of all came together and um, you know, really fought this for a long time in every community around the country. Unfortunately, they sort of disbanded, although National Families and Action stayed intact, but in many ways they disbanded in the mid-90s, which was too bad. And that was also something we wanted to make sure that, again, with PAN, in in some ways we were helping revive. And of course, other people have are contributing to this as well.

Why Advocacy Matters Right Now

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh so for our listeners that do revere you as the premier leader on anti-marijuana legislation, can you leave us with some reassurances of why advocacy work matters so much and why it continues to matter even when it seems like the odds are against us.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah. Well, I think it matters more than ever at this moment. And I and I mean that because I feel like we really have the wind at our backs in so many ways. First of all, you have states that are considering repeal. This was not a conversation we could have four years ago. It was like it was just a red line. I couldn't even say that word. But we are now having states, whether it's Massachusetts, Maine, Oklahoma, other states looking at this right now very seriously. I don't know if they're gonna get it on the first try. Frankly, it took it took uh the legalization side 40 years to get to get it done on many, many tries. They failed, people forget that. But uh uh so this is a key moment right now in our field. Um, you have that publications like the New York Times changing their tune. And a lot of other mainstream networks and news organizations changing their tune. People saying, wow, maybe there is, you know, you had someone like Alex Barrenson, which I think is also very important, um, with his book. And that has woken up a lot of people. And so I think that really there's so much wind at our in our sails right now. This is the time not to let up. This is the time to double down on our efforts. Um, in some ways, I feel like I wish Smoke Screen was also coming out right now, because this is really, in some ways, like a moment in this country where people are really thinking, you know what, maybe this thing isn't as you know, cracked up as it as we thought it was, not as good as we thought it was. So I just think that now more than ever this matters.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Right. It's so funny because forget that I do this work here now, but like even just as a parent, I could not have fathomed, and even as a prevention specialist when we were toying with legalization in New York, I could not have fathomed how anyone could think this was a good idea. It's just so sad to me that profits drive everything. Because I mean, how could you not have expected this can of worms? And I remember one thing when when many a parent and many an adult will still say, oh, it's just marijuana, it's no big deal. And what I say to them, that does get people to think sometimes. So one of my biggest fears is pilots, right? I don't want to be on a on a plane, whether there's autopilot or not, with a stoned pilot. But I also say to parents, so you say it's no big deal. Let me ask you this is it a big deal to you that your child's bus driver gets up in the morning and has a cup of coffee and smokes a joint and then gets in their bus to go pick up your kid because it's legal and harmless, right? That's okay with you. And that shuts people up really quick. They're like, It does, uh-uh, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

And really, I mean, if you think about um, you know, some people say, well, this is like the same-sex marriage issue, you just have to get on with the times. And it's the same kind of thing. My response is, you know, no matter what my opinion is on same-sex marriage, um, if my kid's bus driver is in a same-sex marriage or not, that's not going to affect the way they drive my kid to school. Right. If my doctor is, it's not gonna affect his work on me, if my pilot is, it's not gonna, and so this is something that does affect other people in very, very dramatic ways. It's beyond a moral issue. I also think it's a moral issue, but it's beyond that. And I think we need to recognize that.

High Stakes Podcast And Closing

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yeah, yeah, I do too. So thank you so much for for giving us your time and telling us all of this. You mentioned um your new podcast coming coming out. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah, I'm very excited. It's called High Stakes. I love it. I'm recording it in the yeah, in a professional studio, and uh, we're gonna have really great guests every time. And it's gonna really gonna be quality more than quantity, I think. And uh it's a deep dive into these issues that's I'm gonna be sharing. You know, me, I I love the history side of it. So there will always be tidbits that sprinkled through it as well as kind of what the latest issues are that we're talking about as a country. So I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Wow. Sounds great. We can't wait to tout that and get that out there. Thanks. So, Kevin, thanks again so much for being here. Thank you for doing all you do. I mean, you really you really are something else, and um, I'm proud to work here. So thanks.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Well, you are too. Listen, you are too, and I'm proud to be on your team. I'm proud, so proud of the pan parents. Honestly, nothing warms my heart than seeing a group of our pan parents in Washington, D.C., you know, whether it's on the Hill or at our offices, talking with them like nothing does. It's way better than going to some scientific meeting or some meeting with government bureaucrats, I can tell you. It really nothing warms me because this is this is why we're doing what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yep, yep. And and they're they're so appreciative. This year's Hill Day was so great. And and again, we're gonna we're gonna keep interviewing the Hill Day parents and then keep doing these special episodes and keep on going because we gotta keep doing what we're doing. So thanks again so much.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Thank you. A pleasure. Appreciate it.