Are You Choosing the Right Person? Red Flags, Real Compatibility & When to Walk Away with Dr. Lee Baucom

What if everything you believe about finding "the one" is actually setting you up to fail?

In this episode of Inside OUT, Jojo sits down with Dr. Lee Baucom, creator of the Save the Marriage System, podcast host, and author with over two decades of experience helping couples navigate the hardest seasons of their relationships. And yes they go way beyond saving marriages.

Whether you're single and dating intentionally, newly committed, or years deep into a relationship, this conversation is going to shake something loose. Lee and Jojo get into the biggest lies people tell themselves when choosing a partner, why "the one" mentality actually increases your chances of divorce, the subtle red flags we rationalize away (and why we do it), and what real compatibility actually looks like; hint: it has nothing to do with shared interests.

They also talk about the "pause button"... the silent relationship killer nobody warns you about, the three levels of connection every relationship needs, whether you can come back from infidelity, and how to know when it's actually time to walk away.

This one hits different. Press play.

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Transcript

speaker-0 (00:07.34)
to the Inside Out podcast. I'm your host JoJo and this is where we will navigate the mess together that is mental, emotional and spiritual. Let's get messy.

speaker-0 (00:25.912)
So today I'm sitting down with Dr. Lee Baucom. He is the creator of Save the Marriage System and the host of Save the Marriage podcast. Lee is also an author and he has spent over two decades helping people around the world save their relationships even when one partner has given up. But okay, you guys, we're not gonna just be talking about saving marriages today. We are gonna dive into choosing the right partner, recognizing real compatibility and knowing when to work through the hard stuff.

or walk away. whether you're single, dating, committed, I feel like this conversation might be one to tune into. So Lee, welcome to Inside Out.

speaker-1 (01:03.87)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and you're right. I mean, I think it's important to look at the spectrum of the relationship. I will say when I was doing relationship for premarital counseling work, the relationship level, there were several times when I would say to the couple, we really need to talk about whether y'all move forward or not. And so I think it is important to be thinking about that all the way through the spectrum.

speaker-0 (01:26.508)
Yeah, I'm a big advocate for intentional dating. I mean, that's the state of my life that I'm in. And I think a lot of people might miss that step. So what would you say is the biggest lie people tell themselves when they're choosing a partner?

speaker-1 (01:42.422)
gosh, the biggest is that there is some magic the person. You we've done some research on the people who believe that there is that one person and they actually have a lower success rate with long-term relationships than the general population. So I think that's a big one that I hear it less emphasized, but I still hear it where they're looking for the one that's going to check all the boxes.

And there's a V1 out there that is just for them. That's just a dangerous one.

speaker-0 (02:15.884)
Hmm. That's so interesting. Why would you say that that actually makes the relationship not last?

speaker-1 (02:22.67)
I think it's because it creates an expectation. Everything's going to go well, right? If they are the one, you're going to have no problems. And that's another myth. Expecting a relationship to not have bumps along the way is just a setup. And so I think that's the roots behind it. As soon as you go, wait, why are we having problems? Maybe they're not the one.

then either you have to say maybe there's another one out there or something is wrong with the one. And so either way, it's kind of a dead end.

speaker-0 (02:59.276)
Hmm. I love what you said about expectation, because I think expectation's the biggest killer of anything. You think something's going to go a certain way, even if you're making a plan, and it doesn't go that way, and then you're just let down. Whereas if you just let go and there's more of this free flow, it's so much easier to just allow that person, at least from what I see, to show up just the way that they are. And then you get to decide, how do I want to respond? How do I want to actually continue this or walk away from it?

speaker-1 (03:29.166)
Yeah, in fact, I've done a lot of trainings on the dangers of expectations. whether they are ones that people state or the ones that are hiding in the background, I always think that running a relationship by expectations is a dead end. That's a trap that causes trouble repeatedly. I see people coming in and realizing that what happened was the other person wasn't living up to their expectations.

though they might not have realized that, or they're feeling like that expectation was put on them and either one's a dead end.

speaker-0 (04:05.272)
What would you say other dead ends would be aside from expectation?

speaker-1 (04:09.966)
So that is a big one, but another dead end I think is when there is a pressure on the person to be someone other than who they are. That is a big setup that I think comes out of the fact that sometimes people decide this is the person that they're going to be with and kind of they aren't at the point of accepting who that person is. They're like, they're a project. I'll make them the person I want them to be.

That is A, frustrating, and B, creates a toxic space between them. The relationship gets to be toxic.

speaker-0 (04:49.518)
totally just perpetuates that cycle of just a push-pull I'm imagining.

speaker-1 (04:55.0)
Well, and it ends up being about control. And whenever I hear that the issue is control, so there are some underlying pieces of this. This is kind of a deeper area, I think, for people. We all want to feel like we have some sense of control. And the problem is sometimes we mistake a control of ourselves with how can I control this other person to be who I want them to be. That's the wrong place of control.

Long ago, one of the schools of psychology said, is what we all are, that's what drives us, is this need to control. And it was a need to be who you are that got then switched to the need for me to make you who I need you to be, right? And so we're trying to control something of which we cannot and often not controlling what we could, our own place in the world.

speaker-0 (05:49.506)
Well, I feel like that's a pretty big red flag. What would you say are the biggest, whether red flags and green flags, that sort of predict compatibility in the couples that you work with or just for people to kind of think about when they're dating or in a couple?

speaker-1 (06:10.51)
So you brought up an interesting word, compatibility. And there are lots of studies on what makes people compatible. And basically, that's one of the big mysteries we can't figure out because the compatibility tests are often testing whether you have similar interests. That doesn't always play out on what's successful. Other compatibilities are about psychological types. And yet, we see plenty of people who are

opposite or very different personality types that mesh very well. So we have at the same time birds of a feather flock together as one saying and opposites attract as another saying. And it all depends on who you're applying it to. You you'll say that and the person will go, that's so true. But so is the opposite. And so both of those can be true. So who is our complement is kind of a tough questions where we have compatibility. That often is

part of the question of what am I looking for in a relationship? I so to your red flag, green flag, if somebody is very different than what you're looking for in a relationship and you're trying to still kind of force it, that is a significant red flag to go, why am I needing to try to control this? Whenever we're at that place of feeling like we're trying to make the person.

who we want them to be. I think that's a substantial red flag. Now we're getting away from the kind of the toxic personality red flags. I think some of those are easier to see. The more subtle ones are the ones that I think trip people up. you know, am I wanting them to be someone they're not? That's a red flag. Are they somebody I admire and feel good about? That's a green flag, just kind of the opposites.

speaker-0 (08:03.726)
love how you're playing with opposites and sort of the paradox of like really like what those are. And I think we kind of have to look at both being true, like the positive and the negative and sort of finding like that middle ground all the time. However, even myself, I've rationalized red flags away just for no reason. And sometimes I can't even blame that other person for it. It's definitely my call, because I'll be like, well, this and this and this outweigh

said red flag, which might be greener flags. Maybe they're slightly yellow, but we, we tend to, if we like someone and there's that attraction in that poll, we do rationalize away red flags versus seeing that and being like, no, and going in another direction. mean, I feel like that's, and you can speak way more to this, but why a lot of people are in relationships that they're just so unhappy in.

speaker-1 (09:01.038)
Well, it's interesting. You start off with the, I rationalize away some red flags for no reason, and they're actually our reasons. So, just to kind of point to the fact that whenever we rationalize something away, we have our reason for doing that. It may be because everybody tells us this is such a great person. So, you have outside opinions telling you that.

It may be because you're at a place in life where you want that relationship to work, or a relationship. Let's just put it even more broad. Sometimes people are like, it's time for a relationship to work. It's the time in my life. And so now I've got this person, so I'm going to disregard this because it's where I want to be in life. Sometimes there's something bigger about that person that is interesting enough that you'll sidestep those red flags.

And then there's sometimes the fact that we're down to chemistry and attraction. That the chemistry and attraction to that person outweighs some of the other things you're seeing along the way. So any of those can be true, but they're all reasons that we rationalize away. One of the very interesting things that psychology has proven to us is that humans are not rational creatures.

We are emotional creatures who then rationalize our behavior most steps of the way. When we make a purchase, it's an emotional purchase, and then we have to talk ourselves into the reasons why we made that purchase. Same for relationships, same for lots of things in life where we, how many times do we know we're eating something that's not good for us, and we go, well, I deserve a treat.

You know, I really worked out hard today. Those are rationalizations to explain why we made the choice we made. And that's true in relationships too, which does create a setup for how we struggle through things down the road.

speaker-0 (11:00.686)
So let's go further down that road. What creates compatibility and the actual ability for two people to be like, this is something that I want to invest in and we are going the same direction or let's talk about that.

speaker-1 (11:15.694)
Yeah, are two pieces. I call it the physics of a relationship. There are two pieces that I think often fit well together. So that is whether there is a similar trajectory and a similar velocity for two people. So there are plenty of people that we are going to find attractive. That's just how the human brain works. We're looking for that attraction. So there lots of those. So we sort those out.

Am I attracted or not? That's a basic piece. But are we headed in the same direction? That's trajectory. And at the same speed, that's velocity. And I think we often work on those two questions almost below our perception. When we have these discussions about what do you want out of life, that's a trajectory question. So a trajectory, where are they looking to go? How are they going to travel? Velocity is how fast or how slow.

So I have some friends that I could pretty much guarantee are going to have a successful marriage for a good while. And as long as they stay connected, we'll be a good marriage because their velocity and their trajectory is dead on. They both want the same things out of life, and the timing that they want is the same. And so they have those two matches. Now, I'm pretty sure that they're attracted to each other, so we have that basic layer. But those two extra pieces create a lot of what I think is that

compatibility piece, as opposed to, let's say, a couple that has a very different where they want to head. For instance, one says, I want to have kids, and the other says, I never want to have kids. Those are not similar trajectories. Velocity-wise, one's saying, I want kids, you know, nine months from now. And the other's saying, maybe in a decade, their velocity doesn't match.

And so those two pieces are playing into whether they are going to struggle as they go through it. Are they going to try to figure out how to get to that similar place or not? When I was working with the premarital counseling, had some, I would say, so have you talked about kids? Because that's a big one to at least have some idea. Obviously, you don't have full control over that, but the theory of kids. Do you have a theory about whether you want kids or not? And I many times had people

speaker-1 (13:39.042)
getting ready to get married to say, we've never talked about that. And then we stepped into it because one would say, you know, I really do want a whatever number of kids and the other going, I didn't ever think about kids, I don't want kids, I'm opposed to kids. And that's, you can't negotiate through that very well. It's either a kid or it's not a kid and it can't be their kid, not my kid. So you end up at a point of very different.

trajectories and I use that as an example there are others. I want to live in another country. I never want to move from this county. Those are very different trajectories.

speaker-0 (14:17.516)
And how soon do you think these types of conversations should happen? And also, as time goes on, check-ins.

speaker-1 (14:26.528)
Yes, so the check-in part is incredibly important because what we think we want at one point in life can change. And so in some ways you're naming whether there is a compatibility at this current moment. I think the difference, for instance, if a couple is married, to be able to talk through how those changes happen as long as they're in on the changes as they happen is much easier than

say disconnecting and suddenly realizing you're at very different points of views after that. if they've gotten to the point where that matches up, I think that is a conversation to be had when you're sitting there going, I think this person has potential to be a long-term partner. That is that intentional dating time. It's not just a, they're fun to go to a movie or to a sports event or to a bar or whatever with, there's something more here.

At that point, that's when I think you start at least having some light conversations about where do you see things going in life? Not where do you see us going at this point, but where do you see things going in your life? Where do you want to go? What are you wanting out of life? And to have some early clues on whether there's just some basic pieces that still seem to fit, and then layering in the other pieces. That's a big conversation to have all in one drop. Yeah. So it's pacing.

Are we even starting to be on that same path?

speaker-0 (15:55.566)
really smart. And I want to kind of take a little tangent here, but the pre marital counseling that you mentioned, I think, and for myself too, there's a lot of stigma, maybe negative stigma about couples therapy in general and like, oh, you have to go if there's problems in your relationship. And

I know that that's not necessarily true. And I would just love to hear the sort of premarital counseling aspect, like what, if you don't mind getting into it, what that can do and how that can really, you know, bring two people together or show that these, yeah, this is not gonna be a love match long-term and maybe don't get married because you will get divorced.

speaker-1 (16:48.066)
Yeah. Yeah, so it's hard to predict that. I've seen people that seem to have successful marriages that looking at it from the outside you would go, there's just not a chance. But it's a great question. First, therapy itself, I think there's a stigma of, we had to go to therapy. But there is also the kind of the pressure of if you got a problem, go to therapy. And that's not always the solution.

Therapy, marital therapy specifically doesn't have the track record, for instance, of individual therapy. It's far less effective in the research that we have. And yet it is the first stop along the way. let me put that out there. So this is why I left therapy and became a coach. The statistics on several meta-analyses.

all that to say, they looked at a bunch of studies and saw that about 50 % of people who go to marital therapy still end up divorced. That's about the same as just the general population on divorce rate. So, same kind of thing. And only 10 to 15%, depending on which they were looking at, said that there was any help from the therapy. There some reasons for that and there are some ways that you can make sure that it is more effective, but that's the outcome piece. So, already, let's just say,

I don't know that that is the only answer that we need to have as a society. It's become the default. That is true. that's one of the things that I said, well, let's figure out what actually does work to help. But let's back out one more step. So premarital counseling, which I did, so I'm going to tell you why I did it after I say this, premarital counseling shows no better results.

of people who did pre-marital counseling than people who didn't and how long they stayed married. So I'll tell you why I continue to do it knowing that figure. The first thing is I wanted people to have a place to go earlier in a crisis, not later. And so I was trying to open up a dialogue point for couples who might go, wait.

speaker-0 (18:49.016)
Hmm.

speaker-1 (19:08.302)
That guy said we might have problems in these areas. We are, let's get help now, not when it's a problem. So that's the first. The second is that I was able a number of times to say, this has got issues. If you're gonna continue on, you need to know the issues. I'm not here to say you should or should not get married as much as to say, let me point to these very difficult things. So the reason I was doing the work was because the...

People who were doing the marrying, so ministers for the most part, wanted to feel like they were doing everything they could to help people have successful relationships. The problem is when people come, when they're getting married and they would come to my office, they were convinced that they already had beaten the odds. I mean, if I walk down the street and I walked up to most people and said, what are the odds of divorce?

They're gonna say 50-50. It's not quite that. It's a little better than that. But roughly speaking, that's not an unfair thing. So 50-50. Okay, so now you're gonna go do that. You know it was a 50-50 chance, coin toss chance, and you're still gonna go get married. Why? Because our love is real. We've already beaten the odds because we're not making the mistakes that others do. And so that rationalization we talked about.

They're recognizing that they are already beating the odds. And then they get into trouble because they get surprised by the fact that that's not what determines it. So premarital counseling is tough because they're resistant to the fact that they haven't already figured it all out. That's just kind of human nature. So I was constantly trying to pick holes in their outlook. And I always try to do it in a very kind, loving way.

Talking about kids, talking about how they're going to do their money, talking about how they were going to see each other's families, how they were going to deal with some of those big issues, what they might do with political or religious differences. Those are significant places. Talking about the kids and how they would parent was a big one. But you can learn a lot by how people have discussions about money in terms of that relationship.

speaker-1 (21:28.864)
I was trying to at least get them to think about and talk about these more loaded areas so that they at least had them on the table. They'd at least had a chance to talk about that. But I know from the same kind of big studies that overall premarital counseling doesn't change the outcome.

speaker-0 (21:50.828)
Wow, that is fascinating. But thank you for that honesty and that clarity on that. Are there any tools or practices that you give to people to have these tough conversations to open up the money, religion, politics, sex, children topics?

speaker-1 (22:10.584)
So, I mean, there it's to kind of give them a framework. So my belief in successful marriages is that you create, I call it being a we, but to break that down, being a team, right? And I've seen some things on social media where people are like, you can't lose yourself to the relationship. That is not what I mean. I mean, so let's use the team analogy. I play pickleball. So when I am playing pickleball, I play with a partner.

As soon as we start warming up, I'm going, what am going to need to cover for this person? How can I help this person play their best game? How can I be supportive of them? So instead of saying, well, that sucked, you missed the ball. I will say, hey, that was a tough shot or whatever, just trying to make sure that they stay up in the game so they can keep playing. That's the kind of thing I think just in a microcosm of what we can do in a marriage of going, we're a team together. I'm going to play my best. You're going to play your best. There's this game of life that if we

play together as a team, we're going to do better at. And so one of the frames I would use is that being a we, when I was talking with couples. How are you going to do that? So I think there two pieces of this relationship process. The first is you need to make sure it's the right person. That's what you're doing before. Is it the right person? And the second is, how do I make it right now that we've made this commitment?

That's two different phases. And so my question to them was, OK, you've got this person. You all rented the place. Everything is set. How is it going to be a we? How are you going to talk about that? So talking through those areas that are the difficult ones, and we named all five between you and me, of the biggest conflict points. So how are you going to view this? And I just wanted to hear and be able to help them track that. So when I would say, how you see money?

If they were not able to see it as it's our resource, and let me tell you, I had some very complex formulas for figuring out how they were going to split up expenses and share bills and all of that, and I'm sitting there going, that is a mental game you're playing. And it makes sense if you are two individuals, but it doesn't make sense if you're a team. Now, how you do the bookkeeping and all of that, I don't really

speaker-1 (24:36.77)
care about, but how you think about it. Is it our resource or is it your resource versus my resource? Because in a household, it's our resource that's coming in and our expenses and our costs that's going out. That's it. Everything else is a mental game that we play. And so to help them see that, and so to be fair, I was not expecting them at that point to see it differently.

they shouldn't be able to because they're now walking into this new place where they can be a we as opposed to what they were before. And so that's the first time they could potentially be thinking in that direction. So I'd have to sometimes help them see that perspective around those areas. And that gave them a tool going forward. How are we going to solve our struggles? Like, what's the win? Because if you don't get to that

that we thing, it's going to be you and me. And whenever you put you and me crammed together into an intimate relationship, it will eventually be you versus me. And then it's to win. And so when you're having a discussion, when there is a conflict and there will be a conflict, that was the one that a lot of people thought, you know, we never fight, we're never gonna fight. I'm like, you will fight because there'll be different stakes coming up.

things that are important to each of you and you both are going to have a difference of opinion, but is the question how does that conflict serve our relationship versus how does that conflict mean that I get to win and get my way? That's the separation. a we perspective on conflict is how does this help us further our relationship versus a me-you perspective, which is how do I win this argument? How do I get what I want out of this?

speaker-0 (26:31.35)
It's getting rid of the ego.

speaker-1 (26:32.814)
And it is getting rid of the ego and it's moving towards yourself, the deeper part of you that is asking the question, how do I want to show up in this relationship? The ego is, don't want to look bad in this relationship. I don't want to look weak. I don't want to look vulnerable. And that always keeps us away from intimacy. So it is being aware that the ego is always knocking on the door going, wait, wait, you're not getting what you want.

You're not getting what you deserve. That's the ego talking. Now, there is a piece, just to put in, there are times when somebody does need to say, wait, I am actually being taken advantage of. That's a different thing than I always want what I want. I'm being taken advantage of, and this is not fair. That's not what we're talking about here. That's become toxic.

But this is when you're just struggling because you've got two people who don't know how to say, we're in this together.

speaker-0 (27:37.976)
How about when life starts to life? Because it's all honeymoon and sparkles and unicorns and butterflies in the beginning. But then there's, I mean, I hate to say it, but you you're gonna lose your parents probably together. You're gonna go through maybe that's, I mean, other deaths. I don't wanna put anything out there. There's gonna be sickness. There's gonna be money struggles. There's gonna be moving. There's gonna be all these

these things that an external pressures that could, you know, rupture or fracture, fragment that relationship. What do you see the most successful couples doing that creates or keeps that relationship intact?

speaker-1 (28:26.047)
Yeah, so there as you were asking that I was kicking through like three or four different things that all are out in different directions, but let me let's back up and then see if we can do a running start into it. I have a core belief that marriages get into trouble primarily because, so the reason they wouldn't is because there's actually a toxic person involved who really has not dealt with their

right, they're really toxic. so if that is the case, it's going to be really hard to have a healthy relationship when somebody or both people are just toxic. You've already got an infection in the relationship, okay. So let's set that aside because that's not the general population. So general population, the way marriage is getting into trouble is because they hit what I call the pause button. And they don't mean to do it, but they create the circumstances that lead to

the troubles, and so I'm going to round around a little bit and get to the problems of life as they come. So here's the pause button. You spend all of this time and energy building the relationship. You get to this point where you say, hey, we want to have this for life. let's make this for life, which is, I mean, as far as I still hear in wedding vows, that is what it is, right? So they're making this pledge.

I don't know that they actually listen to what they're saying in the vows, but they're, you know, it's pretty tight, right? mean, all the days we're going to stick it out, whether they're good or bad days or sick or healthy days or rich or poor days. mean, there aren't many days left until one of you died. It's the vows to break it down. And so they're willing to pledge that.

speaker-0 (30:07.511)
That's...

speaker-1 (30:13.958)
And then they go, okay, we've got this. Now I'm not saying it's like the day after their wedding or the day after their honeymoon, but there is a point in time when they go, okay, we've locked this down. Now we've got to go do these other things, parenting, career choices, dealing with aging parents, maybe pursuing activities with friends or marathons or whatever it is.

But we'll get back to us after those things settle down. And so they hit the pause button. And when you hit the pause button, relationships of any kind only have two courses. They're either growing and expanding where they're shrinking and dying. You hit the pause button, you have put it on a course of shrinking and dying. They think that it's suspended animation, right? It's like the science fiction movies where you put them in the pod and they'll be fine when they land on Mars.

doesn't, it doesn't happen. mean, that's always the disaster in science fiction too. But here it's really a disaster because you're dropping the connection. And so while you've built all of these habits of connection in your startup to the relationship and getting to that marriage, then you start creating the habits of disconnection when you hit the pause button. And those habits tend to carry the day after that. So you have momentum that carries you for a while, but eventually somebody is going, I don't

this isn't feeling good. I don't feel like you're listening to me. don't feel like, we're like strangers passing in the night. And that feeling is the pause button taking over. So I hear we're roommate, stranger sharing a bed, or just strangers in the night. We're functioning, a lot of ways that people explain it, but they're all telling me that they hit the pause button and now they're disconnected. And then when they try to...

get away from that, they start doing these big things like we're going to start doing date night. We're going to go on a romantic getaway. We're going to go to a marriage intensive. We're going to do these things that are, when they are completely disconnected, they're going for this huge level of connection and the relationship can't manage it. There's not enough connection to even connect at that level. So then they're even more frustrated with it. So that's the kind of the possibility.

speaker-1 (32:39.562)
And if that is the case, if you're disconnected and then something bad happens, it's hard to feel like you're able to connect in those tough moments. If you've managed your connection, then you're able to support each other and continue moving through those difficult times knowing that they are coming. I there's no way around that. there's a whole different, if you're disconnected, what happens in those pressure moments.

versus if you're connected, what happens in those pressure moments. The connection allows you to move through the crisis and support each other through it.

speaker-0 (33:17.186)
So instead of getting to those, like going to that marriage counselor or that, you know, date night, instead of going to the extremes from one extreme to the other, what are those little things to reconnect when there is no connection rather than just like going to a hundred from zero?

speaker-1 (33:37.292)
Yeah, so if you think about it like staying in shape physically. Even if I got into shape at some point, so we're talking about when they were falling in love and deciding to get married, they got into shape, their relationship was connected. And then I decided for the next few years, I'm just gonna snooze on the couch and do nothing. And then one day I go, I think I'm gonna run a marathon. That is not likely to go very well.

But I could step back and go, okay, you know what, I'm gonna start with walking around the block. I'm gonna start with doing these small things again and reconnecting. So let's kind of cast two paths. One is if you know the dangers of a pause button, you can make sure that you continue to work on building the connection. You can make sure that you have check-ins that are beyond the schedule and the kids, right? You can have connections.

that are about how you support each other and making sure you're staying. So there are three levels of connection. We can talk about that in a minute if you want. But those three levels of connection, are we working through those? Are we making sure that we're managing that? And I would compare that to like eating, right? I'm getting the right nutrition in or am I just kind of chomping on junk food all the time? That would be the same kind of thing. I'm missing these, the three major connection groups.

And so if we're able to keep managing that, and sometimes I'll have people say, you know, love should be more natural. I'm like, where in your life is something important that you treat it that way? If I was supposed to be muscular, it'd be just natural. I wouldn't have to do any work. We don't say that. Or if I was going to be really good at some sport, it would just be natural. I'd go out on the court or whatever, and it would just happen. We don't say that. But then when it comes to a relationship, not

love, but the relationship, we're like, it should just take care of itself. Doesn't happen. And so if we can use that as an awareness of what can't happen, then we can continue to work to build those habits of connection. So that's one path. The other is, my gosh, we disconnected, and now we're distant. And that is when you have to start with the more basic pieces of connection and making sure that you're attending to in a way that is invitational.

speaker-1 (35:57.048)
connecting with your spouse because your spouse is likely feeling the disconnection too. So you can't just jump in full bore. You have to say, can I do that in a way that doesn't feel forced, that doesn't feel pressured, that feels invitational to a spouse?

speaker-0 (36:14.328)
Hmm.

In my head I'm like, what would that even look like if it's not just going like, and having a date night together? That would be zero to 60.

speaker-1 (36:24.558)
So let's talk about the connection pieces and then that might point us on. Three levels of connection, first one physical. And whenever I say this, people go, okay, you're talking about sex. And I will say no, but yes, that is one way of that. But any physical touch that's loving, so that is the little disclaimer, any loving touch is that physical connection. So my dog understands this perfectly.

speaker-0 (36:28.343)
Yeah, great.

speaker-1 (36:51.308)
Yeah, we were walking this morning and I sat down on a bench and suddenly my dog is in my lap thinking she's a lap dog and we're looking at the lake and she's happy to be there because she's connected with me. That's physical connection. We share it with warm-blooded creatures. That is a big one for humans and it's the hugging, the holding hands, you know, just touching each other as you pass by, sitting next to each other on the couch, cuddling, all of those pieces are.

And at deeply biological points, bonding experiences. But they're also connection points that you feel. And if somebody is willing to have physical contact with you, you feel accepted. So that's physical connection. And that is nonverbal. I mean, you don't talk about physical connection. You're either physically connecting or you're not. So you can talk about why that's not working.

But that's a whole different thing. I can't say, you know, I really like to hold your hand and that replaced me holding a hand. That doesn't work. So nonverbal. Emotional connecting is where we cross over between nonverbal and verbal. So even though this is just audio, as I'm saying something, I can see you nodding at me since we have the video going. And I go, okay, we're on the same page with this. You're understanding what I'm saying. And so we do this with

everybody. So these three levels are true in any relationship. It's just the intensity of it. So when you're nodding in agreement, I go, okay, you get what I'm saying. And that is a nonverbal emotional connection. So connection nonverbally comes on, or connection period from an emotional level comes on two levels. Do I feel like my spouse gets me? And does my spouse feel like I get them? Do I feel like my spouse supports me? And does my spouse feel like

I support them. this is the area of when there's a crisis, do we feel like we are able to support each other? so supporting is in the high moments and the low moments, celebrating the high points and commiserating on the low points, that supporting each other and just feeling like you have each other's back. That's what we're talking about. So part of that is verbal. It happens in a conversation, but it's also nonverbal because part of that conversation is

speaker-1 (39:15.384)
driven by body language, nodding, all of that, right? So verbal, nonverbal, and emotional connecting. Then there's spiritual connecting. That is verbal. And this is the interesting one because it's the one that often disappears, and people don't recognize this. So when I was talking with all those couples, they would often tell me the story of when they knew they had fallen in love. And it was always this long discussion.

that starts kind of late at night and goes until way early in the morning. I remember with my, at that point, girlfriend, but now wife, we had had frozen yogurt and everybody else disappeared and we're sitting there talking. And at this probably nine o'clock when we started the conversation, and I think it was four in the morning when we finished the conversation, and it was all about the family we came from.

what we learn from the family, what's important to us, what we want out of life, what are our dreams, what are our hopes, what are our fears, all of those deepest parts that you don't just go around telling people, but you entrust it to this person. You might tell pieces of that, like if someone comes up to me and says, what's your biggest dream? I could tell them that, and I wouldn't feel that risky, but I wouldn't dump all of that. That's a lot of content. And that's the one where you can often go.

we have this commonality of outlook of, and back to what we said before, that velocity trajectory piece, that's sometimes where that is revealed. And so that spiritual connection where we're talking about the deepest part of ourselves, that's often the piece where people fall in love. And then they don't have that conversation many more times after that. Sometimes they forget to have that for a long time until one day they go, I don't even know what you want out of life.

That's kind of the entree into this. And it's from a point of we've lost touch with each other, so how do we know where we're headed? So the interesting thing is that gives us three different targets if you're trying to rebuild connection to ask the question, where are we already in each of those areas? And so I've worked with couples who all three were gone, where two were gone, where one was gone.

speaker-1 (41:33.614)
And so you still have those as target points and we can talk about where they were in those and where they wanted to increase them. So I always get the question, okay, so what am I supposed to do exactly? And my response is a little bit more than what you're doing. Not a lot more than you're doing. A little bit more because you're trying to, you build it in. So if I decided to go and lift weights, I don't just slap on a lot of weight, I do a little bit more than I lifted the day before.

and I build up, right? And it's the same kind of thing. Can I build in deeper and deeper levels of that connection because I know those are those three areas that I can then think about and have in my sights.

speaker-0 (42:19.288)
How about when to know when to walk away from our relationship?

speaker-1 (42:24.05)
So since I wrote the Save the Marriage system, a lot of people are like, so you think every marriage can be saved? I don't. I do think that, especially if kids are involved, that it's worth trying, barring abuse. that, so let's just draw one of those lines in the sand that, how do know it's time to quit if there's any abuse, first of all? Just flat out, that is not the time to work on it. You can't create...

an equal relationship. You can't create a partnership when one person is feeling fearful. So we'll set that as a base. There are times when the disconnection has gone on so long that there's just not a road back. There's also times when one person has maybe, you can see it as building hope towards something outside of the marriage and that doesn't necessarily mean someone. It often does.

But it could be that they have built a hope on, I'm just going to go live my single life and not have to worry about this. It's hard when somebody has built hope somewhere else to get them back in. It's not impossible, but it's hard. And so you recognize that that is a barrier. It's not a no, but it's a barrier. The hard thing is knowing before that. So we've created the outliers of no way.

But how do you know? One is you have to try. So people will often say, you know what? I will do anything you tell me if you can guarantee me that I can save my relationship. And my response is, I can guarantee what will happen if you do not put in an effort to change your relationship. So that's an easy one. If you just are like, I am not going to try, nothing's going to happen. It's possible that if you try, something will turn around.

And there's only in the try do we really decide that. And so I always use just the kind of the mirror test. If I looked in the mirror, can I say I've done everything I want to do? Am I going to walk away with regret? Regret's the tough one. I've worked with people that left a relationship and years later are still regretting that they didn't try something. That is a tough place to be because you can't.

speaker-1 (44:46.062)
go undo that. They can get beyond it, but they can't undo it. And so I would rather have someone go, you know what, I did everything I could. Meaning that they're willing to do, not like everything humanly possible, but everything I'm willing to do. If I feel good about that, I'm walking away with no regrets, that's where they need to be. So maximally, I always

want people to have, not just to not have a divorce, but to have a loving, supportive, connected relationship. Minimally, I want to make sure that they go, yeah, I did everything I'm willing to do, I'm able to do, so I feel good about walking away. That's the range. And so a lot of times, if it's the typical kind of relationship where it's become disconnected, the way to know is you put in the effort and go, okay, I'm at that point.

All that said, I've also had times when I've had to say to somebody, I think you've put in the effort. I remember there was a time when this person called and said, you know, I'm done. I've been working on this for a week and I'm done. I'm like, a week? And that's one level, right? And then I've had people who are like, you know, I've been working on this for 20 years and I'm still willing to put it in. I'm like, wait a minute, that's, I think you've, there should be no regret at this point.

And so we all get to kind of choose that point, but to be realistic about it. And sometimes it's helpful to have an outside perspective when you say, I've done this and this and this to someone to say, I feel like you put in the effort. Or to be able to say, I don't really think you have really put in everything, but if you feel good about it, that's your choice still. And so I put those as kind of the parameters.

speaker-0 (46:31.288)
Do you think it's possible to come back from infidelity?

speaker-1 (46:35.478)
In fact, I wrote a book on it.

speaker-0 (46:38.286)
Well, there you go.

speaker-1 (46:40.598)
Well, so here's why. So let me be very clear when I say this. The person who has the affair is 100 % responsible for that action. They have violated the boundaries. They have not protected the relationship. So they're 100 % responsible for that. But to back it back, many times both people are responsible for being in the disconnected relationship that allowed for that.

So affairs, and I always feel like there's a disclaimer. Typically, affairs have two causes. There is disconnection in the relationship. That means that both are probably trying to figure out how to fill that need. It is a deep human need for us. So there's the disconnection. And there's a lack of boundaries to protect the relationship. Somebody has been unwilling to hold appropriate boundaries. They may not have even

known that. So back to the premarital thing, that's one of the questions I would have. Have you talked about the boundaries you each have and have agreed to on what you will do to protect the relationship? Many times, it's the first time it's crossed their mind to think that. Sometimes if one has already had a bad experience in the past, they are very clear about that. But most people haven't thought much about that. So how are you going to interact with other people in a way that

you feel good about protecting the other, the relationship. And so in an affair, there's a failure of boundaries. It's often preceded by a failure of connection. So if you're able to see that, then you can say, okay, then the affair, there was still 100 % responsible for that, but it's a symptomology of the fact that there's so much disconnection that somebody looked elsewhere for that connection.

many times, I when we kind of peel it away, there's already been a lot of, I mean, I don't know what other term to use, but bleeding of connection in other places. Like somebody has been getting their connection needs met through the kids, they're overly attached to the kids, or they're overly invested in their job and getting that connection from colleagues and other people around them, or friends, that's another place for that.

speaker-1 (49:02.67)
We find ways of getting that connection need met. And let me just say, I don't believe that marriage is the only place to get the connection. It is just the primary place of that. So if that is no longer happening, there's going to be that bleeding over of finding it somewhere else because that's just the human nature is to be desperate for that connection.

speaker-0 (49:32.438)
And what about trajectory and the incompatibility that might arise later on? Is that a place to walk away or do you believe that there's still ability to find common ground again?

speaker-1 (49:47.214)
Yeah, there are times when people do discover some different perspective that draws them in, but they adopt a different viewpoint for themselves. And if it is a core value problem,

And that's one of the things I often say to people is, if you've got a core value discrepancy, that's a tough one to get beyond. So for instance, and this is years ago now, but it was first time that it was just so blatant for me. I had a couple who came in and they said that they wanted to work on their marriage. And so we talked for a while and she said, I just don't think that I can stay in this. And I said, okay, well, what's going on? And she said, well, I believe.

that a marriage is about monogamy. And I went, and what do you believe to the man? And he said, oh, I'm wanting to bring another wife into this relationship. That's a value issue. That's a pretty extreme difference of values. But there's no, I mean, they can't do that. They had an incompatibility. She was not willing to have another.

wife in the mix and he was not willing to not. So that had shifted. They did not marry that way. That was a perspective that he had found. So that became an incompatibility. Now, more and more, I see people coming in because their politics have diverged. And while they might not have been so far off in the early days,

Now with how politically charged our culture is, their differences are not just small differences, they are value incompatibilities. And so I do see many times when people were just like, cannot, I can't see things the way they are and I can't raise our kids, I can't live our lives. I mean, there lots of things that just become incompatible. So people do change, hopefully.

speaker-1 (52:01.912)
there's growth. Hopefully there are changes. And sometimes those changes do create such differences that a couple just says, can't both live in the same space with our different opinion. But that's pretty rare. I see more of that around politics now than I ever have. It's still pretty rare. Many times couples find that their values, core values start as long as they're in communication. They track together.

So there are changes, but they kind of track with each other as they go because they are going through similar experiences and processing things together and their connection allows them to understand even the differences. So we're never gonna be an exact match. That is another one of those myths that we are going to see things just alike. You're not going to around parenting, you're not going to around politics or religion or anything else. And...

If you're only comparing yourselves, you're always going to be opposites. mean, any two points are opposites if there's no other thing. And so being aware of that, being aware that if we're not connecting enough to see those pieces, we will feel like we're at opposite points.

speaker-0 (53:14.822)
Mm. That's a good thing to keep in mind for sure. I also hear this happening and even see it where people are in long-term relationships from their early 20s and they get into their 30s, because that's sort of like the demographic that I'm around and in. And they say, I'm a completely different person. I want different things now. And they might be married for a year and get divorced where it's like,

but they knew that almost going in and still said, well, I've been with them for so long. I go, yep. So before I let you go, Lee, let's get messy mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. So mentally, what would you say is one mental shift or realization that people need to have about relationships?

speaker-1 (53:52.248)
There's your rationalization.

speaker-0 (54:12.748)
before they choose a partner.

speaker-1 (54:16.462)
Yeah, so I do think that that team thing, can I be on the team with this person is a good diagnostic. Do I want to be on the team with this person? So if you have the idea that this is going to be a team, do I want to trade onto this team, right? Is this a team that I want to be on? And I think that's a good kind of a beyond the rationalization piece of going.

Can I see us working together as a team on parenting and all these other issues? And if not, that gets us beyond the, am I attracted to them? Do I like them? Am I interested in them? Or am I just at the right stage? So that often helps people get beyond that.

speaker-0 (55:00.212)
Emotionally. Okay, when it comes to choosing the right partner and in that navigating those hard seasons, what would you say is the most important emotional skill that someone needs to develop?

speaker-1 (55:19.01)
The ability to talk through the support of each other. mean, couples who can manage to let each other know that they are in support of each other can get beyond lots of the pieces. just did a piece about appreciation and admiration. If you're able to express appreciation and admiration for your spouse, that can get you through a lot of the hard stuff.

speaker-0 (55:46.06)
I love that. Okay, spiritually, do you believe that people intuitively sort of have this gut feeling pretty early on whether that person might be a very good match or a right fit versus something that they're just forcing or it's not meant to be?

speaker-1 (56:05.952)
I always am a little concerned when I hear gut feeling from people because that is often those rationalizations that we have in there, right? And so I do think that a lot of times people have a gut feeling of I shouldn't trust this person. And I think you should buy into that. I think you should look into that. If you're like, something feels off about this person, trust that gut feeling enough to push for that.

In terms of gut feeling, are they the right person? I think sometimes people fool themselves into believing there's a gut feeling when the gut feeling is just an infatuation. And I'm not putting down infatuation as much as that is one of the primary drivers of that rationalization. So gut feeling, not a good person, I would take that on board. Gut feeling, it's a perfect person and that stops you from continuing the conversation, that's a danger.

That's a personal red flag. I'm red flagging myself when I am going, okay, gut feeling, this is a great fit, I'm just going to go with it.

speaker-0 (57:13.662)
I'm gonna challenge you on that a little bit because I hear a lot of and I hear it in men more Whether like I just knew that was my wife like I knew immediately that that was the woman I wanted to marry and it's It comes out of no, it's like it was that intuitive was that like? Illogical was that just you decided so you did like What would you say to that?

speaker-1 (57:35.894)
Yeah, so a couple of things I always wonder about that. And one is our capacity of thinking back on things and interpreting through where things are. if I'm in the moment and they say, that's the person I want to marry, that's a different thing than if they tell me a while later that they look back and what that was a person. So that being the case,

speaker-0 (57:50.84)
Rinkle.

speaker-1 (58:05.154)
There was a moment for me when, early on when I went, okay, this could be a serious relationship for me when I met my, at that point, just met this person, right? And so now my wife, but I remember going, this is different than other people. So I do think you pick up on things intuitively and you recognize that there is something there. My concern is always when people go, so I don't have to think about it anymore.

You know, they trust the intuition to the point that they no longer are looking at that. That's when I worry, not whether there is something going, this is different. And I met this person, now a wife, but now been for 38 years wife. back then, I remember when I was talking to my parents and they were like, you're not talking about this person like you have about other people.

And I knew that, I could feel it. There was something different about what I knew about this person, but I also, that wasn't the moment that I decided to get engaged. And that was just a, okay, I think this could be something that I want to pursue.

speaker-0 (59:11.776)
Amazing and along those lines just we're have a little bonus question. I never really do this but

For our friend in the room listening to this conversation, what is one thing that they can do right now to be more intentional in their current relationship or future relationship?

speaker-1 (59:34.498)
Who do I want to show up as? think that I am always about how people are showing up. And I think a lot of times people are going, I'll just be who I am and they can live with that. And I think that loses the intentionality of am I being who I want to be? Am I being intentional with how I want to show up instead of the, I had someone the other day who said, you know, I was testing him. I was just putting on.

not doing my hair and putting on stuff and I'm like, is a test. And that is that who you are? mean, is that, no, I never do that. Okay, then you weren't portraying yourself as who you truly are. And that's the question, know, is can I be intentional about who I want to be in the world and how that fits for this person? Because if it's not a match, if who I truly am is not a match for this person, that's important to know. But if I'm trying to test to see if they'll stick around through whatever,

that's a game. so I just would say be honest with who you want to be in the world and let that person show up.

speaker-0 (01:00:38.966)
Hmm. love that. Well, Lee, thank you so much for joining me on Inside Out. where can people find you?

speaker-1 (01:00:46.35)
Thank you. Yeah, so I do have the Save the Marriage system if people are in a marriage. But I have some books on thriving that would also fit for people. You can check out all the books at savethemarriage.com slash books. I have the Thrive Principles, the Mutable Laws of Living, and a few others. And also, if people are married and going, we did hit the pause button, and it's not too late to unpause, then unpauseyourmarriage.com.

puts them on the app. that's the Unpause app at unpausiermarriage.com.

speaker-0 (01:01:17.44)
Amazing. Well, you guys, all of this will be linked in the show notes and you know where to find me at underscore inside out dot podcasts on sub stack, sign up for the newsletter, all the things. Think about someone that you want to send this episode to. Maybe they need to hear it. Maybe it's your spouse. Maybe it's your boss. I don't know. Save their marriage. Help them in their current relationship and I'll see you all next week. Have a great week guys. Bye.