{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.56,"body":"I do really want to know"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.56,"body":"whether LLMs change the way my students"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":5.56,"endTime":7.45,"body":"think about problems, good or bad."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":7.63,"endTime":13.51,"body":"I do want to know if the offloading of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":7.63,"endTime":13.51,"body":"cognitive tasks changes my own brain"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":13.57,"endTime":18.22,"body":"and my own cognition and like welcomes"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":13.57,"endTime":18.22,"body":"dementia earlier or pushes it off, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":18.4,"endTime":20.2,"body":"I really wanna know these things."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":20.5,"endTime":26.68,"body":"We need to know these things as a society,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":20.5,"endTime":26.68,"body":"but to pretend like this paper answers"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":26.68,"endTime":29.92,"body":"those questions is just completely wrong."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":37.762,"endTime":42.232,"body":"So we're gathered here today to talk"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":37.762,"endTime":42.232,"body":"about a paper that you might have seen."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":42.262,"endTime":45.592,"body":"It's titled Your Brain On Chat GPT."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":46.142,"endTime":49.712,"body":"I've gotten texts about it, we've"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":46.142,"endTime":49.712,"body":"seen it on our social media."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":49.862,"endTime":53.012,"body":"I'm honestly at this point, surprised"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":49.862,"endTime":53.012,"body":"my mom didn't text me about it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":53.012,"endTime":56.042,"body":"Like, this is how far reaching"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":53.012,"endTime":56.042,"body":"this paper has gotten."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":56.612,"endTime":60.542,"body":"But we have concerns about"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":56.612,"endTime":60.542,"body":"it and we wanna talk to you."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":60.782,"endTime":60.962,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":60.962,"endTime":61.742,"body":"We have thoughts,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":62.447,"endTime":63.737,"body":"We have many, many thoughts."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":63.737,"endTime":64.277,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":64.277,"endTime":67.937,"body":"So let's do a general sketch of this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":64.277,"endTime":67.937,"body":"study and what people are saying about it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":67.977,"endTime":72.117,"body":"The study is essentially"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":67.977,"endTime":72.117,"body":"asking this question of what happens"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":72.117,"endTime":78.207,"body":"when you use an LLM or the internet"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":72.117,"endTime":78.207,"body":"or just your brain to write an essay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":78.627,"endTime":82.377,"body":"I'm gonna say, Ashley and I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":78.627,"endTime":82.377,"body":"have rerecorded this little bit"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":82.377,"endTime":83.697,"body":"about the methods of the paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":84.402,"endTime":85.422,"body":"Four times."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":85.572,"endTime":89.502,"body":"And I just want to say that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":85.572,"endTime":89.502,"body":"because that is a sign of how"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":89.502,"endTime":91.032,"body":"confusing this piece was to read."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":91.272,"endTime":95.292,"body":"The moment I opened up this preprint,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":91.272,"endTime":95.292,"body":"I posted, what am I looking at?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":95.352,"endTime":98.142,"body":"And then I said, I'm not gonna"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":95.352,"endTime":98.142,"body":"read all this on a Sunday night."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":98.502,"endTime":100.182,"body":"So we've tried to read it all for you."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":100.212,"endTime":100.662,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":100.662,"endTime":102.012,"body":"But I just wanna shout that out."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":102.012,"endTime":103.212,"body":"It's really confusing."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":103.242,"endTime":104.892,"body":"Hard to parse paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":104.892,"endTime":107.082,"body":"And that was my first red flag."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":107.112,"endTime":107.652,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":107.652,"endTime":112.932,"body":"Because we try to write science"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":107.652,"endTime":112.932,"body":"in a way that is really clear and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":112.932,"endTime":114.522,"body":"in a way that brings people in."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":114.852,"endTime":117.852,"body":"And this artifact is baffling."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":118.422,"endTime":123.882,"body":"So general sketch of the paper, as we"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":118.422,"endTime":123.882,"body":"can tell from the methods it's done"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":123.882,"endTime":126.252,"body":"at a couple of different campuses."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":126.282,"endTime":130.382,"body":"Primarily led by a researcher"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":126.282,"endTime":130.382,"body":"with an MIT media lab affiliation."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":130.872,"endTime":134.952,"body":"There's 54 participants from"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":130.872,"endTime":134.952,"body":"whom they've reported data."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":135.272,"endTime":139.052,"body":"They assigned these people"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":135.272,"endTime":139.052,"body":"to three different groups."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":139.442,"endTime":146.152,"body":"Participants in one group were told"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":139.442,"endTime":146.152,"body":"to use open AI's GPT-4 model as their"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":146.152,"endTime":149.812,"body":"sole source of information for the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":146.152,"endTime":149.812,"body":"essay writing task, quote unquote."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":149.812,"endTime":151.912,"body":"So all of these people were"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":149.812,"endTime":151.912,"body":"brought in and told, you're"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":151.912,"endTime":153.292,"body":"gonna do an essay writing task."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":153.742,"endTime":158.242,"body":"So, LLM group uses chat,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":153.742,"endTime":158.242,"body":"GPT, search Engine Group."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":158.642,"endTime":161.792,"body":", They were told they could use any"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":158.642,"endTime":161.792,"body":"website to help them with their"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":161.792,"endTime":166.232,"body":"essay writing tasks, but any"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":161.792,"endTime":166.232,"body":"LLM was explicitly prohibited."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":166.262,"endTime":170.792,"body":"And then there was what they called a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":166.262,"endTime":170.792,"body":"brain only group, which is gonna be very"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":170.792,"endTime":175.682,"body":"important in this paper brain only group"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":170.792,"endTime":175.682,"body":"for forbidden from using LLM in any online"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":175.682,"endTime":178.532,"body":"websites for consultation in their paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":178.982,"endTime":182.552,"body":"I would like to make the point that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":178.982,"endTime":182.552,"body":"everybody in this study had a brain"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":182.932,"endTime":187.102,"body":"my brain is thinking so hard"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":182.932,"endTime":187.102,"body":"about how to talk about this paper"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":187.102,"endTime":192.142,"body":"in a way that both empowers people"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":187.102,"endTime":192.142,"body":"and also takes away a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":192.142,"endTime":194.062,"body":"fear that this paper has created."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":194.547,"endTime":200.212,"body":"Mm mm mm Would you say that you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":194.547,"endTime":200.212,"body":"have Alpha Band peak activity, or"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":200.212,"endTime":202.462,"body":"is this theta or what's the deal?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":203.012,"endTime":206.092,"body":"I would say it's a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":203.012,"endTime":206.092,"body":"mix of all four alpha, beta,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":206.092,"endTime":208.852,"body":"theta, and gamma simultaneously."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":209.512,"endTime":210.022,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":210.412,"endTime":213.472,"body":"Does that mean you have"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":210.412,"endTime":213.472,"body":"massive connectivity going on?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":214.282,"endTime":219.412,"body":"I have so much connectivity going"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":214.282,"endTime":219.412,"body":"on in my 86 billion neurons in my brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":219.752,"endTime":222.992,"body":"And so as they're doing these"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":219.752,"endTime":222.992,"body":"tasks, they're also recording"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":222.992,"endTime":226.892,"body":"from all of those brains that"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":222.992,"endTime":226.892,"body":"the participants have using EEG."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":227.402,"endTime":231.452,"body":"Uh, they also record their eye movement,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":227.402,"endTime":231.452,"body":"but they don't report it in this study."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":231.587,"endTime":237.317,"body":"Yes, you can see some dazzling"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":231.587,"endTime":237.317,"body":"little red glasses in the drawn figure."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":237.397,"endTime":238.387,"body":"I was confused by that."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":240.242,"endTime":243.397,"body":"Um, they did a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":240.242,"endTime":243.397,"body":"things in this paper, so they"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":243.397,"endTime":245.497,"body":"talk about three big things."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":245.617,"endTime":246.967,"body":"They basically talk about."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":247.727,"endTime":249.857,"body":"The people like people outcomes."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":249.877,"endTime":254.767,"body":"So things like how well did people"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":249.877,"endTime":254.767,"body":"remember the essays they wrote and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":254.827,"endTime":259.357,"body":"their sense of ownership of the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":254.827,"endTime":259.357,"body":"essays, the questions that they ask"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":259.357,"endTime":263.587,"body":"people seem very ad hoc, like they"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":259.357,"endTime":263.587,"body":"were just written by the researchers."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":263.917,"endTime":267.907,"body":"Uh, when I look at this as a social"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":263.917,"endTime":267.907,"body":"scientist, I think to myself, why are"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":267.907,"endTime":272.857,"body":"we not using scales that other people"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":267.907,"endTime":272.857,"body":"have, you know, designed the items for"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":272.857,"endTime":274.897,"body":"and tested them over large populations?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":274.897,"endTime":277.507,"body":"I mean, sometimes you create"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":274.897,"endTime":277.507,"body":"novel measures, but there's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":277.507,"endTime":280.987,"body":"basically nothing reported about"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":277.507,"endTime":280.987,"body":"the measures themselves here."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":281.707,"endTime":283.657,"body":"Um, so that's one thing."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":283.867,"endTime":288.157,"body":"There's obviously the EEG results,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":283.867,"endTime":288.157,"body":"so that's a huge area that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":288.157,"endTime":289.777,"body":"we're gonna talk about the most."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":289.837,"endTime":294.307,"body":"And then there's a bunch of analysis"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":289.837,"endTime":294.307,"body":"about the text itself and we're."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":294.682,"endTime":298.022,"body":"Not really gonna dwell on that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":294.682,"endTime":298.022,"body":"because there's a lot there actually."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":298.022,"endTime":299.972,"body":"But it's just not our focus."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":299.972,"endTime":305.402,"body":"And, um, it's not very surprising that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":299.972,"endTime":305.402,"body":"LLM generated text looks different"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":305.432,"endTime":307.892,"body":"from human generated text that's really"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":307.892,"endTime":308.192,"body":"widely"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":308.327,"endTime":309.077,"body":"already knew that."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":309.137,"endTime":309.347,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":309.962,"endTime":311.102,"body":"give people the same model."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":311.102,"endTime":313.592,"body":"They will obviously create"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":311.102,"endTime":313.592,"body":"fairly homogenous text."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":314.042,"endTime":316.772,"body":"And this to me gets into the research"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":314.042,"endTime":316.772,"body":"design question of the study, which"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":316.772,"endTime":318.902,"body":"we have big, big questions about,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":321.182,"endTime":327.692,"body":"um, a large part of the claims in the EEG"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":321.182,"endTime":327.692,"body":"sections center on ideas about observing"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":327.692,"endTime":329.972,"body":"certain patterns of connectivity."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":330.422,"endTime":335.252,"body":"And I think that's a really major thing"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":330.422,"endTime":335.252,"body":"to take away here is that that's a big"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":335.252,"endTime":337.802,"body":"claim that we're pretty skeptical about."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":338.777,"endTime":339.647,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":340.222,"endTime":342.232,"body":"This is all sounding"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":340.222,"endTime":342.232,"body":"very intimidating."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":342.302,"endTime":346.472,"body":"Alright, Ashley, we're putting"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":342.302,"endTime":346.472,"body":"you in the hot seat today and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":346.472,"endTime":347.912,"body":"we want to do an overview."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":347.912,"endTime":350.612,"body":"We want to talk about our"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":347.912,"endTime":350.612,"body":"brains on brains, right?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":351.302,"endTime":355.382,"body":"How our brains are thinking about"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":351.302,"endTime":355.382,"body":"brains and this evidence that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":355.382,"endTime":356.852,"body":"has been put in front of us."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":356.852,"endTime":361.772,"body":"And I, I think that this paper that we're"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":356.852,"endTime":361.772,"body":"gonna talk about today, this preprint um,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":361.922,"endTime":363.272,"body":"this dump of notes,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":363.482,"endTime":363.542,"body":"I,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":363.962,"endTime":367.892,"body":"it, it's a document"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":363.962,"endTime":367.892,"body":"in the software file sense."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":370.112,"endTime":370.592,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":371.912,"endTime":375.032,"body":"Because I'm not even sure,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":371.912,"endTime":375.032,"body":"like bioRxiv would accept this."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":375.032,"endTime":376.652,"body":"I'm just, I'm sorry, is that,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":376.772,"endTime":378.092,"body":"oh, Does."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":378.182,"endTime":379.142,"body":"went straight for it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":379.142,"endTime":379.412,"body":"I'm"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":379.712,"endTime":380.192,"body":"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":381.302,"endTime":384.062,"body":"Dearly beloved, change technically heads."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":384.092,"endTime":389.732,"body":"We are gathered here today to talk about"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":384.092,"endTime":389.732,"body":"a paper and to talk about how to read"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":389.732,"endTime":396.122,"body":"a paper and to talk about your brain,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":389.732,"endTime":396.122,"body":"our brains, and how we don't have to be"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":396.122,"endTime":401.522,"body":"afraid of brains and maybe we have to"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":396.122,"endTime":401.522,"body":"be a little bit afraid of the way people"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":401.522,"endTime":403.622,"body":"talk about brains, but that's okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":403.622,"endTime":406.022,"body":"Like we are here to help you."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":406.072,"endTime":410.152,"body":"so I think you and I are sort"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":406.072,"endTime":410.152,"body":"of weirdly perfectly positioned to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":410.152,"endTime":416.662,"body":"talk about this paper because I am a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":410.152,"endTime":416.662,"body":"neuroscientist and I think a lot, not"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":416.662,"endTime":420.802,"body":"only about obviously how the brain"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":416.662,"endTime":420.802,"body":"works, but also how people talk about"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":420.802,"endTime":423.262,"body":"brains and use neuroscience information."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":424.717,"endTime":428.227,"body":"Sometimes even like as a weapon, I think"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":424.717,"endTime":428.227,"body":"that's a strong word in this case, but"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":428.227,"endTime":432.997,"body":"really as a way to like sound like an"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":428.227,"endTime":432.997,"body":"expert or sound like really technical."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":432.997,"endTime":436.807,"body":"And that deeply, deeply, deeply bothers"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":432.997,"endTime":436.807,"body":"me and sort of my mission as a person"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":436.807,"endTime":439.297,"body":"is to say, look, the brain is an organ."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":439.447,"endTime":443.197,"body":"We can understand it in these ways, but"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":439.447,"endTime":443.197,"body":"there's also these other things that,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":443.647,"endTime":447.037,"body":"uh, people claim to be able to do, to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":443.647,"endTime":447.037,"body":"understand it, that are just like too"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":447.037,"endTime":448.927,"body":"farfetched and the claims are too far."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":448.927,"endTime":452.857,"body":"And yeah, so I feel like"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":448.927,"endTime":452.857,"body":"that's my side of it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":452.917,"endTime":456.547,"body":"And then you're obviously here as"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":452.917,"endTime":456.547,"body":"the, you know, psychologist and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":456.547,"endTime":460.207,"body":"social scientist thinking about a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":456.547,"endTime":460.207,"body":"lot of other parts of this paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":460.882,"endTime":465.202,"body":"Yeah, so I'm really interested"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":460.882,"endTime":465.202,"body":"in how we promote and protect human"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":465.202,"endTime":470.272,"body":"learning in the world, and I've always"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":465.202,"endTime":470.272,"body":"been interested in that and I have a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":470.272,"endTime":472.282,"body":"lot of thoughts and questions about."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":472.597,"endTime":475.797,"body":"The ways the folks in this paper"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":472.597,"endTime":475.797,"body":"tried to study it, and I think"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":475.797,"endTime":479.547,"body":"it's a really good example of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":475.797,"endTime":479.547,"body":"how much research design matters."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":480.117,"endTime":485.577,"body":"Um, and also, you know, that we"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":480.117,"endTime":485.577,"body":"can break this stuff down, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":485.577,"endTime":486.777,"body":"know, the proof is in the pudding."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":486.867,"endTime":491.077,"body":"So take a look at the evidence and, and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":486.867,"endTime":491.077,"body":"take a look at what someone is showing"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":491.077,"endTime":492.547,"body":"us and what they've said they've done."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":492.667,"endTime":496.777,"body":"And that's how we can unpack these"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":492.667,"endTime":496.777,"body":"sort of really big claims and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":496.777,"endTime":498.097,"body":"headlines that are going around."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":498.097,"endTime":498.427,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":498.787,"endTime":503.947,"body":"So maybe let's start by talking"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":498.787,"endTime":503.947,"body":"about EEG, because this paper has"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":504.217,"endTime":508.537,"body":"really gotten a lot of traffic and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":504.217,"endTime":508.537,"body":"traction because they used EEG."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":508.597,"endTime":511.737,"body":"So Ashley, maybe you could"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":508.597,"endTime":511.737,"body":"give us a mini EEG lesson."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":512.467,"endTime":514.567,"body":"It's a way of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":512.467,"endTime":514.567,"body":"recording from the brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":514.597,"endTime":516.907,"body":"It's non-invasive, which means"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":514.597,"endTime":516.907,"body":"we're gonna put electrodes"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":516.907,"endTime":517.837,"body":"on the outside of the brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":518.257,"endTime":521.707,"body":"And, um, some of you have maybe"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":518.257,"endTime":521.707,"body":"even like, been in an EEG study"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":521.707,"endTime":524.317,"body":"or seeing one of these caps at"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":521.707,"endTime":524.317,"body":"like a science fair or something."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":524.317,"endTime":527.997,"body":"It's very typical thing you'll"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":524.317,"endTime":527.997,"body":"see for neuroscience recording"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":527.997,"endTime":530.247,"body":"where someone has like a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":527.997,"endTime":530.247,"body":"little electrodes on their head."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":530.907,"endTime":534.837,"body":"Here's the thing about EEG,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":530.907,"endTime":534.837,"body":"which is really tough, is that"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":534.987,"endTime":536.337,"body":"it's outside of the brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":536.337,"endTime":540.777,"body":"So the signals that you actually"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":536.337,"endTime":540.777,"body":"record with an EEG electrode are"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":540.777,"endTime":546.207,"body":"pretty poor in terms of, uh, their"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":540.777,"endTime":546.207,"body":"ability to be spatially localized."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":546.537,"endTime":549.627,"body":"And they're pretty poor in"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":546.537,"endTime":549.627,"body":"terms of their signal to noise."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":549.747,"endTime":553.767,"body":"And when we record EEG, we're"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":549.747,"endTime":553.767,"body":"not recording single neurons."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":554.007,"endTime":557.667,"body":"We're actually recording like thousands"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":554.007,"endTime":557.667,"body":"of neurons simultaneously, all talking."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":558.027,"endTime":563.637,"body":"So the analogy I often use is, and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":558.027,"endTime":563.637,"body":"this is not, um, something I came up"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":563.637,"endTime":566.337,"body":"with, but I think is really, really"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":563.637,"endTime":566.337,"body":"powerful, is like to think of your"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":566.337,"endTime":568.677,"body":"brain as kind of like a stadium."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":568.947,"endTime":574.137,"body":"And within that like massive stadium of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":568.947,"endTime":574.137,"body":"let's say like 30, 40,000 people, every"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":574.137,"endTime":576.207,"body":"individual person is like a single neuron."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":576.537,"endTime":581.007,"body":"And if you were to study this stadium"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":576.537,"endTime":581.007,"body":"in a few different ways, you could go"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":581.007,"endTime":584.757,"body":"in and listen to one person talking,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":581.007,"endTime":584.757,"body":"but you could also listen to the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":584.757,"endTime":587.652,"body":"overall roar of the crowd that happens."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":587.652,"endTime":591.582,"body":"And what EEG is listening to is it's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":587.652,"endTime":591.582,"body":"listening to the roar of the crowd."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":592.002,"endTime":595.032,"body":"And that roar can happen"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":592.002,"endTime":595.032,"body":"in different frequencies."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":595.032,"endTime":599.502,"body":"Like you might have some low"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":595.032,"endTime":599.502,"body":"frequency, slow thing that happens,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":599.502,"endTime":604.962,"body":"like as the ball moves around the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":599.502,"endTime":604.962,"body":"field and everybody's like, Ooh, ah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":605.177,"endTime":607.752,"body":"But then you might also have"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":605.177,"endTime":607.752,"body":"higher frequency, like people"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":607.752,"endTime":610.692,"body":"clapping and getting excited or"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":607.752,"endTime":610.692,"body":"even like doing the wave, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":610.692,"endTime":614.802,"body":"So things are happening at these"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":610.692,"endTime":614.802,"body":"different speeds within the stadium,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":614.802,"endTime":618.672,"body":"and EEG can record all of that, and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":614.802,"endTime":618.672,"body":"then we can break it down into these"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":618.672,"endTime":620.802,"body":"different frequencies of activity."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":622.122,"endTime":624.432,"body":"I think that something"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":622.122,"endTime":624.432,"body":"that also comes to mind."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":624.432,"endTime":627.312,"body":"So, you know, I, I actually"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":624.432,"endTime":627.312,"body":"did my PhD in an EEG lab."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":627.312,"endTime":628.842,"body":"I will fully admit this."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":628.842,"endTime":632.802,"body":"I think EEG is kind of boring"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":628.842,"endTime":632.802,"body":"as a method, so I didn't do it."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":632.802,"endTime":635.322,"body":"But, so that's my, my clarity."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":635.322,"endTime":638.232,"body":"I like to say I did my PhD in an EEG lab."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":638.232,"endTime":640.212,"body":"I did not myself perform EEG."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":640.572,"endTime":643.902,"body":"But something that I know"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":640.572,"endTime":643.902,"body":"from that context is how you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":643.902,"endTime":646.392,"body":"analyze this really matters."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":646.392,"endTime":651.102,"body":"And I mean, the choices that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":646.392,"endTime":651.102,"body":"you make about how you do the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":651.102,"endTime":654.402,"body":"analysis bake in certain findings."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":654.462,"endTime":659.112,"body":"Um, sometimes, you know, so this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":654.462,"endTime":659.112,"body":"is true of many kinds of analysis."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":659.172,"endTime":662.262,"body":"You, the model you're using, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":659.172,"endTime":662.262,"body":"know, the kind of assumptions you're"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":662.262,"endTime":665.142,"body":"making can determine what you find."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":665.532,"endTime":668.652,"body":"Um, and this is one reason that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":665.532,"endTime":668.652,"body":"research design matters so much."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":668.652,"endTime":669.432,"body":"And the answer."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":669.987,"endTime":673.527,"body":"To, you know, whether this is"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":669.987,"endTime":673.527,"body":"good evidence is not always in the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":673.527,"endTime":677.577,"body":"statistics, it's in the analytical"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":673.527,"endTime":677.577,"body":"details and the analysis plan."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":677.577,"endTime":678.567,"body":"And is that a good plan?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":678.567,"endTime":678.867,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":678.867,"endTime":682.497,"body":"So can you say anything"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":678.867,"endTime":682.497,"body":"about how we analyze EG data?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":683.227,"endTime":683.907,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":684.022,"endTime":687.717,"body":"EEG is one of these techniques"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":684.022,"endTime":687.717,"body":"that is super easy to do."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":687.747,"endTime":691.647,"body":"Like you actually, if you had like a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":687.747,"endTime":691.647,"body":"little bit of background in electronics,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":691.677,"endTime":693.627,"body":"you could build an EEG system."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":693.627,"endTime":698.547,"body":"It's basically just a little"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":693.627,"endTime":698.547,"body":"electrode like metal thing connected"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":698.547,"endTime":699.927,"body":"with a wire to an amplifier."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":699.927,"endTime":700.287,"body":"So the,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":700.467,"endTime":704.337,"body":"This is what makes it, this is what"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":700.467,"endTime":704.337,"body":"makes it a hacker magnet, I will say."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":704.667,"endTime":705.447,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":705.447,"endTime":705.867,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":705.867,"endTime":710.697,"body":"And, and in recent years, in like the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":705.867,"endTime":710.697,"body":"past couple of decades, these systems"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":710.697,"endTime":712.617,"body":"have come down dramatically in price."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":712.617,"endTime":716.787,"body":"I mean, you could go online and order"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":712.617,"endTime":716.787,"body":"yourself a pretty straightforward,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":716.787,"endTime":720.117,"body":"like little EEG cap probably for a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":716.787,"endTime":720.117,"body":"hundred bucks or something like that."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":720.327,"endTime":724.077,"body":"Um, backyard Brains, which is one"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":720.327,"endTime":724.077,"body":"of my like favorite, uh, companies"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":724.077,"endTime":727.707,"body":"for democratizing neuroscience"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":724.077,"endTime":727.707,"body":"education, sells an EEG system."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":727.707,"endTime":728.727,"body":"It's a few hundred bucks."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":728.967,"endTime":729.477,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":730.047,"endTime":733.707,"body":"This is the kind of technology a lot"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":730.047,"endTime":733.707,"body":"of people are getting their hands on."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":733.707,"endTime":736.077,"body":"A lot of companies are"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":733.707,"endTime":736.077,"body":"getting their hands on."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":736.587,"endTime":741.267,"body":"But as you said, the analysis is really,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":736.587,"endTime":741.267,"body":"really the thing that matters here."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":741.297,"endTime":748.407,"body":"And like I said, EEG is noisy, it's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":741.297,"endTime":748.407,"body":"indirect, and you have to have a really"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":748.407,"endTime":754.167,"body":"clear idea of what you're looking for and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":748.407,"endTime":754.167,"body":"align what you're looking for with the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":754.167,"endTime":755.907,"body":"analysis that you're ultimately gonna do."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":756.297,"endTime":759.267,"body":"So the most like common thing or"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":756.297,"endTime":759.267,"body":"sort of like the most bread and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":759.267,"endTime":762.387,"body":"butter thing you do with EEG data"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":759.267,"endTime":762.387,"body":"is you say, okay, we've recorded"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":762.387,"endTime":765.327,"body":"this roar of the stadium over time."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":765.567,"endTime":767.787,"body":"Let's see what kinds of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":765.567,"endTime":767.787,"body":"frequencies are in the data."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":767.787,"endTime":771.537,"body":"And so you break it down into"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":767.787,"endTime":771.537,"body":"alpha and beta and theta."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":771.837,"endTime":775.347,"body":"And this kind of thing has actually gotten"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":771.837,"endTime":775.347,"body":"into like the mainstream a little bit"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":775.347,"endTime":779.097,"body":"because we have this idea that like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":775.347,"endTime":779.097,"body":"gamma means you're like concentrating."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":779.097,"endTime":779.907,"body":"And so you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":779.957,"endTime":780.247,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":780.327,"endTime":783.057,"body":"YouTube channels"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":780.327,"endTime":783.057,"body":"that are like gamma channels"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":783.057,"endTime":784.827,"body":"meant to like stimulate your"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":785.007,"endTime":789.597,"body":"I've seen this for meditation"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":785.007,"endTime":789.597,"body":"stuff like there is off the shelf."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":789.627,"endTime":795.297,"body":"EEG headbands, people buy and it, it"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":789.627,"endTime":795.297,"body":"does a huge amount of processing that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":795.297,"endTime":796.437,"body":"it doesn't really tell you about."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":796.437,"endTime":797.307,"body":"That's kind of opaque."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":797.307,"endTime":800.997,"body":"And then it says, oh, you, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":797.307,"endTime":800.997,"body":"access this band or not, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":801.567,"endTime":802.317,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":802.317,"endTime":803.722,"body":"And, and some of this stuff is."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":804.882,"endTime":806.442,"body":"Is totally legit."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":806.442,"endTime":809.862,"body":"And, and the stuff that has been"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":806.442,"endTime":809.862,"body":"around for a while like this, like I"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":809.862,"endTime":813.912,"body":"said, kind of bread and butter, just"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":809.862,"endTime":813.912,"body":"like what frequencies are in the data."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":813.912,"endTime":816.402,"body":"Some, some of these things"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":813.912,"endTime":816.402,"body":"have held up a lot over time."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":816.402,"endTime":821.232,"body":"So for example, um, the alpha waves,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":816.402,"endTime":821.232,"body":"which are these waves that happen"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":821.442,"endTime":825.792,"body":"between like eight and 12 hertz, so"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":821.442,"endTime":825.792,"body":"you know, about 10 times a second, you"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":825.792,"endTime":827.712,"body":"have a cycle of this wave in the brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":828.162,"endTime":832.512,"body":"Um, you see many more of these when"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":828.162,"endTime":832.512,"body":"your eyes are closed, when you're"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":832.512,"endTime":834.252,"body":"relaxed, when you're meditating."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":834.432,"endTime":838.962,"body":"I actually do an experiment in my lab"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":834.432,"endTime":838.962,"body":"class where students elicit their own"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":838.962,"endTime":842.622,"body":"alpha waves by just sitting there with"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":838.962,"endTime":842.622,"body":"their eyes closed and then you can see it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":842.987,"endTime":844.307,"body":"Right in front of you in the data."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":844.307,"endTime":847.157,"body":"Like it doesn't even require"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":844.307,"endTime":847.157,"body":"very sophisticated analysis."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":847.277,"endTime":853.427,"body":"Um, also as an aside, this has really"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":847.277,"endTime":853.427,"body":"made me believe in meditation because the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":853.427,"endTime":857.927,"body":"students, just anecdotally, the students"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":853.427,"endTime":857.927,"body":"that have the strongest alpha waves, I"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":857.927,"endTime":860.447,"body":"like nine outta 10 times are meditators."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":861.497,"endTime":863.117,"body":"Um, and it's super interesting."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":863.117,"endTime":865.877,"body":"So, so there, there's real stuff"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":863.117,"endTime":865.877,"body":"and there's really interesting"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":865.877,"endTime":868.907,"body":"stuff that we should be trying to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":865.877,"endTime":868.907,"body":"understand as a neuroscience community."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":868.907,"endTime":870.497,"body":"Like what is this alpha wave?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":870.497,"endTime":874.127,"body":"What does it mean, you know, why"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":870.497,"endTime":874.127,"body":"does it, uh, seem to increase"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":874.217,"endTime":875.867,"body":"with things like meditation?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":876.267,"endTime":878.487,"body":"You said something really"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":876.267,"endTime":878.487,"body":"interesting, which is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":878.517,"endTime":882.477,"body":"just by sitting down and closing"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":878.517,"endTime":882.477,"body":"your eyes, you get this change."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":882.477,"endTime":887.817,"body":"Like that to me, shows me, shows me"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":882.477,"endTime":887.817,"body":"how dynamic the brain states are, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":887.817,"endTime":894.327,"body":"know, how quickly things change, how"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":887.817,"endTime":894.327,"body":"complicated it can be because you know,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":894.327,"endTime":898.527,"body":"your brain is doing everything at once,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":894.327,"endTime":898.527,"body":"like motor movements, you know, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":898.527,"endTime":902.307,"body":"if you have one person who's doing a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":898.527,"endTime":902.307,"body":"bunch of waving their arms around, right?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":902.487,"endTime":905.337,"body":"You know, their brain's gonna look"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":902.487,"endTime":905.337,"body":"different than someone who isn't."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":905.997,"endTime":910.107,"body":"So I think is that part of what you mean"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":905.997,"endTime":910.107,"body":"by indirect, it being an indirect measure?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":911.102,"endTime":912.552,"body":"Yeah, that's part of what I mean."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":912.552,"endTime":917.562,"body":"And yeah, what I mean by indirect is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":912.552,"endTime":917.562,"body":"like if I wanna know, uh, let's say"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":917.562,"endTime":921.912,"body":"if someone's relaxed, yeah, sure,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":917.562,"endTime":921.912,"body":"I can, uh, look at the alpha wave"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":921.912,"endTime":926.202,"body":"activity, but if I wanna know if"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":921.912,"endTime":926.202,"body":"someone's thinking of their grandmother."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":926.887,"endTime":931.542,"body":"EEG activity is not gonna tell me that"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":926.887,"endTime":931.542,"body":"it's, it's gonna tell me something"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":931.542,"endTime":936.552,"body":"about someone's brain state, how"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":931.542,"endTime":936.552,"body":"engaged they are, how awake they are."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":936.552,"endTime":939.852,"body":"That's like generally what I think"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":936.552,"endTime":939.852,"body":"of EEG as sort of being useful"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":939.852,"endTime":943.572,"body":"for, it's a, it's a measure of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":939.852,"endTime":943.572,"body":"brain state, but it's indirect."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":943.572,"endTime":948.042,"body":"It's not, you know, the same thing as"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":943.572,"endTime":948.042,"body":"like going in, measuring the activity"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":948.042,"endTime":952.812,"body":"of your dopamine neurons directly to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":948.042,"endTime":952.812,"body":"ask how rewarded do you feel right now?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":952.872,"endTime":954.312,"body":"It's not precise."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":954.852,"endTime":955.062,"body":"It's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":955.062,"endTime":955.272,"body":"not."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":955.272,"endTime":955.812,"body":"It's not."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":956.382,"endTime":956.982,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":956.982,"endTime":960.882,"body":"So it's not like, it's not"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":956.982,"endTime":960.882,"body":"specific and it's not precise."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":961.092,"endTime":961.752,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":961.752,"endTime":966.072,"body":"And, and something you just raised too"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":961.752,"endTime":966.072,"body":"is the fact that at any given time you"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":966.072,"endTime":970.182,"body":"have all of these different frequencies"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":966.072,"endTime":970.182,"body":"happening at the same time in your brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":970.212,"endTime":972.372,"body":"'cause your brain's doing a lot"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":970.212,"endTime":972.372,"body":"of different things at once."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":972.372,"endTime":972.672,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":972.942,"endTime":974.502,"body":"So, you know, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":974.502,"endTime":978.702,"body":"You have some low frequency stuff, you"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":974.502,"endTime":978.702,"body":"have some higher frequency stuff, but"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":978.702,"endTime":982.722,"body":"given your brain state you'll have like a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":978.702,"endTime":982.722,"body":"different sort of mix of these different,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":982.782,"endTime":984.702,"body":"um, frequencies happening in the brain."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":985.512,"endTime":985.962,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":986.052,"endTime":986.652,"body":"Alright."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":987.252,"endTime":992.112,"body":"yeah, so that's like the,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":987.252,"endTime":992.112,"body":"the EEG sort of fundamentals, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":992.172,"endTime":1000.662,"body":"This paper is doing a step away from that,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":992.172,"endTime":1000.662,"body":"which is, I would say not fully accepted"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1000.662,"endTime":1006.632,"body":"in the world of EEG, which is attempting"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1000.662,"endTime":1006.632,"body":"to measure connectivity using EEG."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1007.622,"endTime":1014.282,"body":"So there is a community of researchers"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1007.622,"endTime":1014.282,"body":"that use things like FMRI or EEG, which"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1014.282,"endTime":1016.592,"body":"are functional measures of the brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1016.592,"endTime":1018.962,"body":"So they're recording"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1016.592,"endTime":1018.962,"body":"brain activity over time."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1018.992,"endTime":1023.402,"body":"They're not measuring structure, and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1018.992,"endTime":1023.402,"body":"they're using those functional measures"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1023.402,"endTime":1027.422,"body":"to try to estimate how connected"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1023.402,"endTime":1027.422,"body":"different areas of the brain are."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1028.052,"endTime":1030.392,"body":"This is not a direct"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1028.052,"endTime":1030.392,"body":"measure of connectivity."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1030.392,"endTime":1035.132,"body":"It is not the same thing as me going in"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1030.392,"endTime":1035.132,"body":"and asking, is this brain region actually"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1035.132,"endTime":1037.142,"body":"physically connected to this other region?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1037.562,"endTime":1039.332,"body":"It's actually asking a question of."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1039.692,"endTime":1043.322,"body":"Are these brain regions kind of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1039.692,"endTime":1043.322,"body":"correlated in the fact that like, if"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1043.322,"endTime":1045.392,"body":"one is active, is the other one active?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1045.812,"endTime":1050.402,"body":"So first and foremost, we need"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1045.812,"endTime":1050.402,"body":"to like address that as what"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1050.402,"endTime":1052.417,"body":"connectivity means in this paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1053.432,"endTime":1053.732,"body":"okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1053.762,"endTime":1054.152,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1054.302,"endTime":1056.702,"body":"I wanna jump in 'cause I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1054.302,"endTime":1056.702,"body":"think, you know, there's some"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1056.702,"endTime":1057.872,"body":"interesting stuff to interweave."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1057.992,"endTime":1062.462,"body":"I've seen a lot of misconceptions as"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1057.992,"endTime":1062.462,"body":"people talk about this paper a lot."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1062.792,"endTime":1063.332,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1063.572,"endTime":1067.202,"body":"Just baffling levels of social media hype."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1067.502,"endTime":1072.212,"body":"One thing I wanna say is I've seen a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1067.502,"endTime":1072.212,"body":"lot of posts that say, oh my gosh, this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1072.212,"endTime":1077.822,"body":"paper shows that the brain's ability"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1072.212,"endTime":1077.822,"body":"to form new connections is damaged."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1078.152,"endTime":1081.932,"body":"That is not, that's not at all"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1078.152,"endTime":1081.932,"body":"what connectivity means, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1082.032,"endTime":1082.847,"body":"No, no, no, no."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1082.937,"endTime":1083.267,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1083.297,"endTime":1084.287,"body":"No, not in this case."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1084.287,"endTime":1090.347,"body":"So, so this paper, uh, is indirectly"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1084.287,"endTime":1090.347,"body":"measuring connectivity by asking,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1090.527,"endTime":1094.637,"body":", does activity in one region,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1090.527,"endTime":1094.637,"body":"predict activity in another region."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1094.947,"endTime":1098.517,"body":"They're using this technique that's based"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1094.947,"endTime":1098.517,"body":"on this thing called Grainger Causality,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1098.517,"endTime":1102.207,"body":"which actually was born out of social"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1098.517,"endTime":1102.207,"body":"science and is this way of trying to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1102.267,"endTime":1104.997,"body":"estimate whether time series are related,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1105.597,"endTime":1106.917,"body":"um, which is cool."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1106.967,"endTime":1111.047,"body":"You know, like in some cases, like you"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1106.967,"endTime":1111.047,"body":"wanna know if particular, you know, if the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1111.047,"endTime":1114.977,"body":"stock market is correlated to something"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1111.047,"endTime":1114.977,"body":"else happening in the world, you don't"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1114.977,"endTime":1116.897,"body":"have a way of running a causal experiment."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1116.897,"endTime":1120.767,"body":"So you do this thing called Granger"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1116.897,"endTime":1120.767,"body":"causality, and you ask, is there enough"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1120.767,"endTime":1124.697,"body":"correlation between these two signals"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1120.767,"endTime":1124.697,"body":"in one direction that it seems like"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1124.697,"endTime":1126.137,"body":"one thing is causing the other thing."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1126.467,"endTime":1129.287,"body":"So that's okay, but it's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1126.467,"endTime":1129.287,"body":"still not connectivity, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1129.287,"endTime":1133.277,"body":"You haven't directly indicated"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1129.287,"endTime":1133.277,"body":"whether there's a connection between"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1133.277,"endTime":1137.627,"body":"these two things, but this has"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1133.277,"endTime":1137.627,"body":"nothing to do with synapses, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1137.657,"endTime":1142.097,"body":"So when we think about, like you said"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1137.657,"endTime":1142.097,"body":"oh, forming new connections in the brain."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1142.247,"endTime":1147.407,"body":"What we mean really when we say that is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1142.247,"endTime":1147.407,"body":"forming new synapses between neurons."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1147.707,"endTime":1154.607,"body":"Like I said earlier, this paper, EEG, is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1147.707,"endTime":1154.607,"body":"not measuring single neurons ever, ever."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1154.607,"endTime":1154.877,"body":"ever."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1154.877,"endTime":1157.607,"body":"it's measuring thousands"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1154.877,"endTime":1157.607,"body":"of them simultaneously."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1157.727,"endTime":1161.027,"body":"yeah, it's not even measuring"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1157.727,"endTime":1161.027,"body":"people's learning outcomes."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1161.532,"endTime":1164.052,"body":"It's really important to think"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1161.532,"endTime":1164.052,"body":"about what they're saying"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1164.082,"endTime":1165.282,"body":"versus what they're measuring."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1165.732,"endTime":1168.912,"body":"And they're saying a lot of things"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1165.732,"endTime":1168.912,"body":"about learning and they're saying a lot"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1168.912,"endTime":1172.542,"body":"of things about cognitive debt, which"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1168.912,"endTime":1172.542,"body":"isn't a psychology term, it's just a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1172.542,"endTime":1174.102,"body":"term they, they made up for this paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1174.432,"endTime":1176.142,"body":"So I don't even know"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1174.432,"endTime":1176.142,"body":"exactly what it means."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1176.832,"endTime":1179.742,"body":"But they're implying that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1176.832,"endTime":1179.742,"body":"there will be learning loss."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1179.802,"endTime":1183.522,"body":"They are not measuring learning"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1179.802,"endTime":1183.522,"body":"loss, they're not measuring a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1183.522,"endTime":1188.082,"body":"difference in people's ability"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1183.522,"endTime":1188.082,"body":"to solve a new learning task."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1188.532,"endTime":1190.992,"body":"Um, they're not even"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1188.532,"endTime":1190.992,"body":"measuring self-efficacy."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1190.992,"endTime":1195.892,"body":"So people's perceptions of their own"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1190.992,"endTime":1195.892,"body":"learning, , or people's belief that in"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1195.892,"endTime":1198.082,"body":"the future they will be able to learn."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1198.542,"endTime":1200.492,"body":"I think that that's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1198.542,"endTime":1200.492,"body":"really, really important."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1200.837,"endTime":1203.467,"body":"Again, just to distinguish between"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1200.837,"endTime":1203.467,"body":"what they're talking about or what"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1203.467,"endTime":1207.337,"body":"they're saying this could have"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1203.467,"endTime":1207.337,"body":"implications for versus what is actually"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1207.337,"endTime":1208.502,"body":"measured, what we actually know."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1209.317,"endTime":1210.667,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1210.717,"endTime":1211.827,"body":"Do you wanna pivot to that?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1211.827,"endTime":1215.517,"body":"Because we talked about the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1211.827,"endTime":1215.517,"body":"EEG measures and, and I mean,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1215.607,"endTime":1217.767,"body":"you know, the EEG measures."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1217.767,"endTime":1222.687,"body":"Basically, just to kind of summarize"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1217.767,"endTime":1222.687,"body":"in one big takeaway, like I think,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1223.347,"endTime":1229.047,"body":"okay, they measured brain activity,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1223.347,"endTime":1229.047,"body":"they threw this analysis at it, which"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1229.107,"endTime":1233.547,"body":"by the way, there's like a page on"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1229.107,"endTime":1233.547,"body":"this or two pages in the methods"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1233.877,"endTime":1238.107,"body":"is not nearly enough to even assess"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1233.877,"endTime":1238.107,"body":"whether they did this method correctly."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1238.557,"endTime":1242.067,"body":"Um, and whether they ran the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1238.557,"endTime":1242.067,"body":"statistics on it correctly."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1242.217,"endTime":1246.057,"body":"I also think that they're talking"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1242.217,"endTime":1246.057,"body":"about it incorrectly, like for example."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1246.357,"endTime":1251.157,"body":"This directed transfer function"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1246.357,"endTime":1251.157,"body":"that they're using is actually,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1251.157,"endTime":1254.817,"body":"was actually developed to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1251.157,"endTime":1254.817,"body":"look at all of the electrodes."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1254.817,"endTime":1258.417,"body":"Simultaneously they mentioned"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1254.817,"endTime":1258.417,"body":"looking at pairs of electrodes,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1258.417,"endTime":1259.497,"body":"which doesn't make sense."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1259.647,"endTime":1259.827,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1259.932,"endTime":1261.372,"body":"I had huge concerns with that."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1261.627,"endTime":1264.417,"body":"pairs of electrodes as"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1261.627,"endTime":1264.417,"body":"actually nodes in the network."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1264.417,"endTime":1267.297,"body":"'cause this is essentially a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1264.417,"endTime":1267.297,"body":"derivation of network theory anyway."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1267.297,"endTime":1271.797,"body":"There's a lot of stuff that's like,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1267.297,"endTime":1271.797,"body":"sort of just weird about the way they"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1271.797,"endTime":1273.237,"body":"write about it and talk about it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1273.237,"endTime":1273.357,"body":"No, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1273.522,"endTime":1276.432,"body":"No, you know what, I'm actually,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1273.522,"endTime":1276.432,"body":"let's not just do this as an aside"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1276.522,"endTime":1277.992,"body":"because this is, this is central."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1278.142,"endTime":1278.832,"body":"This is central."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1279.042,"endTime":1282.282,"body":"When I read this paper, I, and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1279.042,"endTime":1282.282,"body":"I took a lot of notes to myself"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1282.282,"endTime":1286.342,"body":"and we can link a couple of my"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1282.282,"endTime":1286.342,"body":"threads if people wanna read those."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1286.552,"endTime":1286.972,"body":"'cause it's,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1287.037,"endTime":1287.422,"body":"a, it's,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1287.587,"endTime":1289.027,"body":"this thing and why?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1289.192,"endTime":1290.782,"body":"a 200 page artifact."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1290.782,"endTime":1292.372,"body":"And I was like, nobody's gonna read it."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1292.432,"endTime":1293.422,"body":"I'm gonna read it."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1293.422,"endTime":1294.412,"body":"Challenge accepted."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1294.682,"endTime":1296.872,"body":"Um, it's about a hundred"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1294.682,"endTime":1296.872,"body":"pages of, of the actual"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1296.872,"endTime":1297.172,"body":"paper,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1297.517,"endTime":1298.657,"body":"I read it on the trolley."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1299.602,"endTime":1303.442,"body":"I mean, half of it is brain"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1299.602,"endTime":1303.442,"body":"pictures, which are like hard to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1303.442,"endTime":1305.722,"body":"even interpret, like, because what"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1305.787,"endTime":1305.907,"body":"is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1306.022,"endTime":1309.172,"body":"It's just there to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1306.022,"endTime":1309.172,"body":"basically be like, look brains."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1309.592,"endTime":1309.892,"body":"We did it"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1310.972,"endTime":1313.072,"body":"okay, we're getting into it."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1313.072,"endTime":1318.472,"body":"So one of my first thoughts was"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1313.072,"endTime":1318.472,"body":"this analysis is really suspicious."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1318.622,"endTime":1322.672,"body":"So I want to teach our change"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1318.622,"endTime":1322.672,"body":"technically heads our lovely"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1322.672,"endTime":1324.052,"body":"folks who are here to learn."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1324.832,"endTime":1328.762,"body":"How can you think about red"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1324.832,"endTime":1328.762,"body":"flags when you see a study?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1329.032,"endTime":1332.422,"body":"You know, and, and here's some"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1329.032,"endTime":1332.422,"body":"red flags that I thought about."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1332.962,"endTime":1339.632,"body":"There are tons and tons of pairwise"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1332.962,"endTime":1339.632,"body":"comparisons being made and I don't"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1339.632,"endTime":1345.047,"body":"see a holistic analytic approach"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1339.632,"endTime":1345.047,"body":"that kind of controls the way that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1345.047,"endTime":1346.517,"body":"we are testing for all these things."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1346.517,"endTime":1348.827,"body":"That's a very important thing to do."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1349.007,"endTime":1354.037,"body":"A lot of the time when you are running"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1349.007,"endTime":1354.037,"body":"tons and tons and tons of analyses,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1354.287,"endTime":1359.477,"body":"you, you want to make sure you are not"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1354.287,"endTime":1359.477,"body":"accidentally inflating your chances of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1359.477,"endTime":1361.607,"body":"getting a positive result by accident."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1362.197,"endTime":1365.207,"body":"I don't know EEG as well as"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1362.197,"endTime":1365.207,"body":"you do . Let's talk a little"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1365.207,"endTime":1366.617,"body":"bit more about this analysis."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1367.757,"endTime":1368.357,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1368.357,"endTime":1371.087,"body":"No, I think their methods"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1368.357,"endTime":1371.087,"body":"section is just really strange."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1371.087,"endTime":1374.237,"body":"So it like, if you look at the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1371.087,"endTime":1374.237,"body":"methods section for the EEG, half of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1374.237,"endTime":1376.907,"body":"it is equations, which by the way,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1376.967,"endTime":1378.257,"body":"You don't need to write out"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1378.272,"endTime":1381.212,"body":"You don't need to include"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1378.272,"endTime":1381.212,"body":"the equations for stuff that's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1381.212,"endTime":1382.682,"body":"published in other papers."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1382.732,"endTime":1386.832,"body":"Immediately to me it signals we're"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1382.732,"endTime":1386.832,"body":"like, we want this to look smart, and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1386.832,"endTime":1391.272,"body":"we basically want to prevent people"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1386.832,"endTime":1391.272,"body":"from directly engaging with it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1391.722,"endTime":1391.932,"body":"Like,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1392.067,"endTime":1392.547,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1392.847,"endTime":1393.087,"body":"It,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1393.087,"endTime":1394.317,"body":"you know what it is to me,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1395.247,"endTime":1399.207,"body":"it's computer science, paper writing,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1395.247,"endTime":1399.207,"body":"because this was how people would"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1399.207,"endTime":1404.217,"body":"do it in, when I was in an HCI"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1399.207,"endTime":1404.217,"body":"lab for my postdoc, papers would"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1404.217,"endTime":1408.147,"body":"just have like 20 pages of basic"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1404.217,"endTime":1408.147,"body":"statistical equations, like, you're"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1408.147,"endTime":1410.457,"body":"not reproving what a regression is."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1411.042,"endTime":1411.252,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1411.257,"endTime":1411.822,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1411.822,"endTime":1412.212,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1412.212,"endTime":1416.022,"body":"And this stuff is, is is fully written"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1412.212,"endTime":1416.022,"body":"out in the papers that developed"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1416.022,"endTime":1418.932,"body":"this as a technique and the much"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1416.022,"endTime":1418.932,"body":"more common thing to do would be"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1418.932,"endTime":1420.612,"body":"to say we adopted this technique."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1420.612,"endTime":1422.712,"body":"They're not as far as I"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1420.612,"endTime":1422.712,"body":"can tell, doing anything."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1422.997,"endTime":1424.407,"body":"Different or novel with it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1424.407,"endTime":1425.937,"body":"So you just refer to the paper."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1425.937,"endTime":1428.667,"body":"So like why did you take the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1425.937,"endTime":1428.667,"body":"time to put the equations in?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1428.667,"endTime":1433.827,"body":"Well, at the same time, in like the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1428.667,"endTime":1433.827,"body":"first paragraph of the EEG analysis"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1433.827,"endTime":1439.527,"body":"section, there is a blatant typo that"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1433.827,"endTime":1439.527,"body":"even my students could catch like this."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1439.587,"endTime":1442.707,"body":"Actually, I would give them as an"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1439.587,"endTime":1442.707,"body":"exam question, which I would say,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1442.707,"endTime":1444.897,"body":"what is wrong with this paragraph?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1445.197,"endTime":1451.077,"body":"And they would tell me that if I ran"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1445.197,"endTime":1451.077,"body":"an analysis where I did a low pass"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1451.077,"endTime":1455.307,"body":"filter at 0.1 hertz and a high pass"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1451.077,"endTime":1455.307,"body":"filter at a hundred hertz, I would've"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1455.307,"endTime":1459.387,"body":"lost every single frequency that I"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1455.307,"endTime":1459.387,"body":"care about in terms of the brain."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1461.922,"endTime":1462.857,"body":"Oh, that's alarming."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1462.857,"endTime":1463.697,"body":"That's alarming."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1463.947,"endTime":1464.637,"body":"it's alarming."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1464.637,"endTime":1468.387,"body":"So how do you get an error like that,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1464.637,"endTime":1468.387,"body":"which is just blatant and like, okay,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1468.387,"endTime":1469.707,"body":"I'll give them a benefit of the doubt."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1469.707,"endTime":1470.307,"body":"It's a typo."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1470.307,"endTime":1474.717,"body":"Fine, but you know, then you have"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1470.307,"endTime":1474.717,"body":"these complicated equations like"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1474.807,"endTime":1476.397,"body":"about your transfer function."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1476.457,"endTime":1479.397,"body":"I don't know, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1476.457,"endTime":1479.397,"body":"major red flag territory."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1480.037,"endTime":1484.087,"body":"I felt the same about the learning"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1480.037,"endTime":1484.087,"body":"science stuff because a huge beginning"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1484.147,"endTime":1489.217,"body":"motivator for this whole study is,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1484.147,"endTime":1489.217,"body":"Hey, maybe people form better memories"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1489.217,"endTime":1493.717,"body":"when they write something and generate"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1489.217,"endTime":1493.717,"body":"it themselves versus when they copy"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1493.717,"endTime":1495.757,"body":"paste something or use assistance."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1496.327,"endTime":1500.197,"body":"This is a classic, classic"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1496.327,"endTime":1500.197,"body":"cognitive science learning,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1500.197,"endTime":1501.787,"body":"science psychology finding."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1501.787,"endTime":1502.627,"body":"There's a huge"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1502.627,"endTime":1503.467,"body":"area on it."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1503.797,"endTime":1508.117,"body":"They cite Sweller 1970s"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1503.797,"endTime":1508.117,"body":"cognitive load theorist."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1508.537,"endTime":1514.027,"body":"Um, they cite basically the one guy that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1508.537,"endTime":1514.027,"body":"HCI people ever cite about cognitive load."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1514.027,"endTime":1518.787,"body":"And I, I find their discussion of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1514.027,"endTime":1518.787,"body":"cognitive load incredibly poor in the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1518.787,"endTime":1521.307,"body":"literature review, but they do not cite."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1521.727,"endTime":1527.097,"body":"Bjork and Bjork, who are foundational"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1521.727,"endTime":1527.097,"body":"theorists who talk about the concept"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1527.097,"endTime":1531.027,"body":"of desirable difficulty in learning and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1527.097,"endTime":1531.027,"body":"demonstrate memory formation and the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1531.027,"endTime":1535.617,"body":"generation effect, which is essentially"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1531.027,"endTime":1535.617,"body":"what they are claiming to rediscover here."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1535.617,"endTime":1537.447,"body":"It's a completely known effect."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1537.447,"endTime":1541.887,"body":"It's a classic effect that if"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1537.447,"endTime":1541.887,"body":"you have people generate things,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1542.127,"endTime":1543.897,"body":"they will remember it better."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1543.897,"endTime":1547.047,"body":"Like we've replicated this again and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1543.897,"endTime":1547.047,"body":"again called the Generation Effect,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1547.707,"endTime":1551.277,"body":"and it's weird to not cite that."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1551.337,"endTime":1556.527,"body":"You know, it's also means that if"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1551.337,"endTime":1556.527,"body":"you design two tasks where you have"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1556.527,"endTime":1562.317,"body":"one person write a bunch of stuff"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1556.527,"endTime":1562.317,"body":"and you have another person passively"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1562.317,"endTime":1566.457,"body":"read stuff, no matter what the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1562.317,"endTime":1566.457,"body":"medium is that they're reading it on."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1566.772,"endTime":1571.392,"body":"Static book a screen, an"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1566.772,"endTime":1571.392,"body":"LLM interface, I don't care."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1571.662,"endTime":1573.492,"body":"The reading effect will be different."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1573.492,"endTime":1576.402,"body":"This is completely known and documented."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1576.642,"endTime":1581.592,"body":"So the fact that they don't cite that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1576.642,"endTime":1581.592,"body":"or justify, you know, what's different"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1581.592,"endTime":1586.842,"body":"about interacting with an LLM, um, in a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1581.592,"endTime":1586.842,"body":"really precise way, huge red flag to me."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1586.842,"endTime":1589.962,"body":"It's also just not good"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1586.842,"endTime":1589.962,"body":"scientific practice."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1590.142,"endTime":1594.552,"body":"Listen, we all have careers that rise"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1590.142,"endTime":1594.552,"body":"and fall on getting credit for our work."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1594.732,"endTime":1598.242,"body":"So, you know, you read this and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1594.732,"endTime":1598.242,"body":"you're just like, excuse me."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1599.007,"endTime":1602.067,"body":"Yeah, no, there's a, there's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1599.007,"endTime":1602.067,"body":"a ton of stuff that should be cited"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1602.067,"endTime":1603.447,"body":"in other parts of the paper too."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1603.447,"endTime":1606.477,"body":"Like overall, it's like"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1603.447,"endTime":1606.477,"body":"really under researched."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1606.507,"endTime":1612.957,"body":"They're making broad claims with one"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1606.507,"endTime":1612.957,"body":"measly study, which like in my mind,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1612.957,"endTime":1618.117,"body":"especially for this kind of world of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1612.957,"endTime":1618.117,"body":"EEG, like just saying, oh, well this"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1618.117,"endTime":1623.187,"body":"particular kind of connectivity means"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1618.117,"endTime":1623.187,"body":"they're doing less internal processing."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1623.187,"endTime":1625.587,"body":"Like that's a really big claim."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1625.587,"endTime":1628.047,"body":"And you're gonna just"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1625.587,"endTime":1628.047,"body":"pin one study on that."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1628.347,"endTime":1628.767,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1628.767,"endTime":1631.917,"body":"But extraordinary claims"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1628.767,"endTime":1631.917,"body":"require extraordinary evidence."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1633.192,"endTime":1633.852,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1634.332,"endTime":1637.242,"body":"And that is something to also"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1634.332,"endTime":1637.242,"body":"pay attention to, even if"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1637.242,"endTime":1638.772,"body":"you're not a neuroscientist."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1638.952,"endTime":1642.222,"body":"You know, you can read a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1638.952,"endTime":1642.222,"body":"paper and you can say, huh."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1643.152,"endTime":1647.382,"body":"There we're jumping, we're like on, on one"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1643.152,"endTime":1647.382,"body":"hand we're saying, oh, there's like this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1647.382,"endTime":1649.572,"body":"tiny difference of attention or something."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1649.662,"endTime":1654.192,"body":"And then the very next sentence we're"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1649.662,"endTime":1654.192,"body":"saying, difference in internal processing."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1654.222,"endTime":1658.512,"body":"Like what is internal processing or,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1654.222,"endTime":1658.512,"body":"or difference in neural activity."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1658.802,"endTime":1664.442,"body":"When I was in grad school one time in"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1658.802,"endTime":1664.442,"body":"front of my PI, um, who, who came from"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1664.442,"endTime":1669.352,"body":"a very famous theory of mind lab, I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1664.442,"endTime":1669.352,"body":"said that a cognitive process was higher"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1669.352,"endTime":1671.452,"body":"level than another cognitive process."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1671.512,"endTime":1676.972,"body":"And he interrupted me and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1671.512,"endTime":1676.972,"body":"said, what do you mean by that?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1677.182,"endTime":1680.932,"body":"What is high level and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1677.182,"endTime":1680.932,"body":"low level in cognition?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1681.352,"endTime":1685.747,"body":"And I didn't know, you know, when I was"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1681.352,"endTime":1685.747,"body":"just a student learning and I was kind"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1685.747,"endTime":1687.367,"body":"of parroting what I'd sort of heard."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1687.367,"endTime":1690.487,"body":"But it was, it was vague"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1687.367,"endTime":1690.487,"body":"metaphorical reasoning."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1690.487,"endTime":1694.867,"body":"It wasn't actually a clear mental"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1690.487,"endTime":1694.867,"body":"model and I never did it again"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1695.107,"endTime":1697.117,"body":"because, you know, he said."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1697.687,"endTime":1698.527,"body":"What do you mean?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1698.527,"endTime":1702.217,"body":"You can't just call things high level"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1698.527,"endTime":1702.217,"body":"and low level, you can't just hand wave."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1702.932,"endTime":1704.372,"body":"Gosh, that's so good."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1704.372,"endTime":1705.002,"body":"That's so good."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1705.002,"endTime":1710.162,"body":"And I think like a big part of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1705.002,"endTime":1710.162,"body":"what we do in what we try to do in"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1710.222,"endTime":1714.812,"body":"rigorous science is call each other"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1710.222,"endTime":1714.812,"body":"out on stuff like that, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1714.812,"endTime":1718.622,"body":"And that's the process of becoming"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1714.812,"endTime":1718.622,"body":"a scientist is getting called"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1718.622,"endTime":1720.602,"body":"out for making assumptions."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1721.022,"endTime":1723.482,"body":"Um, like that, that might"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1721.022,"endTime":1723.482,"body":"be a little bit flawed."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1723.542,"endTime":1725.972,"body":"I got called out when I was an undergrad."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1725.972,"endTime":1727.232,"body":"I will never forget this."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1727.232,"endTime":1730.382,"body":"And so I will never"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1727.232,"endTime":1730.382,"body":"make this mistake I had."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1730.707,"endTime":1734.427,"body":"A mentor who set me up when I was, oh no,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1730.707,"endTime":1734.427,"body":"I was a high school student, actually."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1734.487,"endTime":1738.497,"body":"I was young high school student, knew"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1734.487,"endTime":1738.497,"body":"I wanted to do neuroscience research."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1738.827,"endTime":1741.917,"body":"My mentor set me up with a meeting"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1738.827,"endTime":1741.917,"body":"with Jonathan Cohen, who is a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1741.917,"endTime":1743.717,"body":"famous psychologist at Princeton."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1744.137,"endTime":1745.397,"body":"I went, met with him."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1745.607,"endTime":1747.437,"body":"I told him something like that."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1748.067,"endTime":1751.997,"body":"There was a selfishness area of the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1748.067,"endTime":1751.997,"body":"brain or something, like referring"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1751.997,"endTime":1753.467,"body":"to some headline I had seen."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1753.467,"endTime":1757.217,"body":"And he was like, um, that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1753.467,"endTime":1757.217,"body":"not, that's not how we think about it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1757.217,"endTime":1760.967,"body":"You know, like there aren't areas of the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1757.217,"endTime":1760.967,"body":"brain that are responsible for behaviors"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1760.967,"endTime":1762.887,"body":"in this, like one-to-one sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1762.887,"endTime":1764.657,"body":"And I was like, oh, okay."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1765.467,"endTime":1767.567,"body":"And I'll never make"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1765.467,"endTime":1767.567,"body":"that same mistake again."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1768.027,"endTime":1770.457,"body":"People are trying to scare"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1768.027,"endTime":1770.457,"body":"you by saying something happens in"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1770.457,"endTime":1772.407,"body":"the brain like a lot of the time."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1772.877,"endTime":1775.967,"body":"Seeing the social media takes, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1772.877,"endTime":1775.967,"body":"know, again, which I just go back"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1775.967,"endTime":1778.307,"body":"to because I, I think about how."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1779.357,"endTime":1787.187,"body":"We can help people navigate this, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1779.357,"endTime":1787.187,"body":"know, and I see people who are so scared,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1787.577,"endTime":1794.777,"body":"and I just want to say, think about,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1787.577,"endTime":1794.777,"body":"you know, if your brain was gonna melt"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1794.777,"endTime":1803.117,"body":"out your ears because you were bored for"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1794.777,"endTime":1803.117,"body":"20 minutes, for four times, what, what"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1803.172,"endTime":1805.757,"body":"evolutionary advantage would that be?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1805.757,"endTime":1812.087,"body":"I mean, I would be more terrified by"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1805.757,"endTime":1812.087,"body":"that than by anything about we have"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1812.087,"endTime":1813.527,"body":"much bigger problems to solve than"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1813.737,"endTime":1814.817,"body":"Oh my God."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1815.192,"endTime":1818.927,"body":"And, and that's what"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1815.192,"endTime":1818.927,"body":"people are saying like that,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1819.197,"endTime":1820.847,"body":"that is a ludicrous."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1821.282,"endTime":1821.882,"body":"Oh my God."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1821.882,"endTime":1825.392,"body":"I think your point too about like,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1821.882,"endTime":1825.392,"body":"okay, if this actually was a study where"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1825.392,"endTime":1829.562,"body":"they were causing cognitive impairment"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1825.392,"endTime":1829.562,"body":"in like a third of their people,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1829.832,"endTime":1832.352,"body":"that would be a major"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1829.832,"endTime":1832.352,"body":"ethical thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1832.697,"endTime":1834.137,"body":"Holy shit."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1834.197,"endTime":1838.157,"body":"So, you know, my trick, my secret"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1834.197,"endTime":1838.157,"body":"trick that's gotten me to my whole"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1838.157,"endTime":1842.987,"body":"career and makes people think I'm a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1838.157,"endTime":1842.987,"body":"crazy smart research design architect,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1842.987,"endTime":1847.907,"body":"whatever, whatever, is that I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1842.987,"endTime":1847.907,"body":"actually read papers and I think to"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1847.907,"endTime":1850.037,"body":"myself, what did people have to do?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1850.617,"endTime":1852.927,"body":"What did they physically"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1850.617,"endTime":1852.927,"body":"do with their bodies?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1852.927,"endTime":1854.457,"body":"What did these people feel?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1854.457,"endTime":1855.597,"body":"What did they think?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1856.317,"endTime":1860.187,"body":"And so what really happened in this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1856.317,"endTime":1860.187,"body":"study is a handful of people, about"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1860.217,"endTime":1865.677,"body":"54, 53, um, of which a bunch of them"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1860.217,"endTime":1865.677,"body":"dropped out before the fourth session."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1865.737,"endTime":1867.777,"body":"You know, by the way, so the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1865.737,"endTime":1867.777,"body":"fourth session's only like"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1867.777,"endTime":1871.227,"body":"nine people showed up and."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1871.597,"endTime":1875.437,"body":"Participated in a series of,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1871.597,"endTime":1875.437,"body":"I think, 20 minute sessions."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1875.557,"endTime":1876.067,"body":"Four of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1876.067,"endTime":1876.517,"body":"them."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1876.937,"endTime":1879.907,"body":"Very unclear over what"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1876.937,"endTime":1879.907,"body":"time period, by the way."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1879.907,"endTime":1881.377,"body":"So I couldn't find this in the paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1881.377,"endTime":1885.277,"body":"I don't know if you did, babe, but I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1881.377,"endTime":1885.277,"body":"couldn't find a place where the intervals"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1885.277,"endTime":1889.327,"body":"between the sessions were actually"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1885.277,"endTime":1889.327,"body":"shown to be the same for everybody."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1889.327,"endTime":1892.597,"body":"Or whether it was just dependent"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1889.327,"endTime":1892.597,"body":"on when they could schedule people."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1892.867,"endTime":1896.857,"body":"I think if you're talking about overtime"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1892.867,"endTime":1896.857,"body":"effects and you're sampling people at"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1896.857,"endTime":1901.417,"body":"different intervals, that matters a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1896.857,"endTime":1901.417,"body":"lot that's the sort of thing a learning"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1901.417,"endTime":1905.527,"body":"scientist would be thinking about if"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1901.417,"endTime":1905.527,"body":"we were actually testing for memory."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1905.917,"endTime":1911.287,"body":"Obviously massive confound is how"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1905.917,"endTime":1911.287,"body":"long ago did somebody do something?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1912.097,"endTime":1912.772,"body":"So You wanna"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1912.877,"endTime":1915.187,"body":"want that to be"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1912.877,"endTime":1915.187,"body":"as controlled as possible."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1915.187,"endTime":1919.837,"body":"Like it's always a struggle to, you"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1915.187,"endTime":1919.837,"body":"know, schedule participants, of course."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1919.837,"endTime":1924.877,"body":"But you'd wanna say every session was"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1919.837,"endTime":1924.877,"body":"five to seven days, let's say apart."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1924.877,"endTime":1925.237,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1925.297,"endTime":1927.247,"body":"But none of those"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1925.297,"endTime":1927.247,"body":"details are in the paper."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1927.277,"endTime":1928.177,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1928.807,"endTime":1933.317,"body":"Another thing that I've made a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1928.807,"endTime":1933.317,"body":"point about in this study is despite"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1933.317,"endTime":1935.867,"body":"the massive amount of detail, the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1933.317,"endTime":1935.867,"body":"fact that it's a hundred pages,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1935.897,"endTime":1938.927,"body":"we have little clarity about the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1935.897,"endTime":1938.927,"body":"instructions participants were given."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1939.497,"endTime":1944.177,"body":"So there's a lot of places that this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1939.497,"endTime":1944.177,"body":"paper flips into sort of narration"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1944.177,"endTime":1950.387,"body":"that's not very detailed, and they"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1944.177,"endTime":1950.387,"body":"say, we gave people these instructions."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1950.417,"endTime":1952.487,"body":"I wanna see the text by text."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1952.487,"endTime":1956.477,"body":"I wanna know what the participants"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1952.487,"endTime":1956.477,"body":"really thought they were supposed"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1956.477,"endTime":1958.187,"body":"to do in the LLM condition."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1958.697,"endTime":1961.637,"body":"Did they think they were"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1958.697,"endTime":1961.637,"body":"supposed to copy paste?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1962.267,"endTime":1967.157,"body":"You know, because it's, it really"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1962.267,"endTime":1967.157,"body":"matters what people think they're"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1967.157,"endTime":1968.687,"body":"supposed to do in a condition."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1969.287,"endTime":1973.067,"body":"It also matters that you're getting"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1969.287,"endTime":1973.067,"body":"paid a hundred dollars to show"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1973.067,"endTime":1974.207,"body":"up and sit in this condition."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1974.207,"endTime":1978.887,"body":"There's a lot of evidence that the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1974.207,"endTime":1978.887,"body":"people in the LLM condition were bored"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1978.887,"endTime":1983.537,"body":"out of their minds and were doing a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1978.887,"endTime":1983.537,"body":"task that they thought was stupid."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1984.572,"endTime":1988.952,"body":"And I think that is different"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1984.572,"endTime":1988.952,"body":"from the task making you stupid."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":1989.507,"endTime":1989.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1990.452,"endTime":1994.742,"body":"You could argue that the measure"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1990.452,"endTime":1994.742,"body":"they have that people were disinvested"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1994.742,"endTime":1998.522,"body":"from the task, they didn't feel"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1994.742,"endTime":1998.522,"body":"ownership of the essay, actually"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":1998.582,"endTime":2001.372,"body":"represents a real validity check failure."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2001.372,"endTime":2005.077,"body":"And I'm not sure that I'm expressing"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2001.372,"endTime":2005.077,"body":"this super clearly, but I'm trying"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2005.077,"endTime":2009.007,"body":"to explain this to people on my"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2005.077,"endTime":2009.007,"body":"social media right now, like when"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2009.007,"endTime":2013.357,"body":"we design tasks that are different,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2009.007,"endTime":2013.357,"body":"we are forcing them to be different."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2014.287,"endTime":2016.657,"body":"So it's not a surprise that people"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2014.287,"endTime":2016.657,"body":"experience them differently,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2017.062,"endTime":2018.112,"body":"Yeah, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2018.337,"endTime":2022.167,"body":"And it doesn't prove this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2018.337,"endTime":2022.167,"body":"is how people are using chat gPT"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2022.597,"endTime":2025.297,"body":"people have really complex lives."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2025.297,"endTime":2030.367,"body":"Like we can't just leap from this to being"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2025.297,"endTime":2030.367,"body":"to saying this is now a measure of how"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2030.367,"endTime":2032.417,"body":"everyone in the world is using chat, GPT."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2032.437,"endTime":2033.727,"body":"That's ludicrous."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2033.997,"endTime":2037.087,"body":"And when you're testing things like"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2033.997,"endTime":2037.087,"body":"human memory and human problem solving,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2037.357,"endTime":2040.117,"body":"you want to design for tasks that are."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2040.987,"endTime":2045.187,"body":"Are equivalent in a lot of dimensions"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2040.987,"endTime":2045.187,"body":"that we want to hold equivalent and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2045.187,"endTime":2049.867,"body":"allow us to test for these differences"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2045.187,"endTime":2049.867,"body":"we think are because of the LRM"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2049.867,"endTime":2051.307,"body":"or because of the search engine."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2052.172,"endTime":2058.322,"body":"Another way to say this point"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2052.172,"endTime":2058.322,"body":"is like you wanna control for something"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2058.382,"endTime":2064.122,"body":"and you're pointing out that the LLM"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2058.382,"endTime":2064.122,"body":"condition maybe didn't control for the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2064.122,"endTime":2070.002,"body":"fact that participants were disengaged"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2064.122,"endTime":2070.002,"body":"and bored, and that's actually not the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2070.002,"endTime":2072.012,"body":"use case for LLMs that we think of."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2072.012,"endTime":2077.472,"body":"Like when I, I just recently learned this"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2072.012,"endTime":2077.472,"body":"term, so I'm gonna use it when I vibe code"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2077.712,"endTime":2082.542,"body":"with my LLMI am deeply engaged, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2082.662,"endTime":2084.582,"body":"I'm like, Hey buddy, let's go."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2084.582,"endTime":2086.472,"body":"Let's make this simulation, let's do it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2086.592,"endTime":2088.152,"body":"Like it's fun, I'm engaged."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2088.182,"endTime":2089.982,"body":"This is like a good use case."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2091.077,"endTime":2094.317,"body":"This is fascinating, and it's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2091.077,"endTime":2094.317,"body":"also classic learning science."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2094.347,"endTime":2094.857,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2094.857,"endTime":2096.837,"body":"They say it in the lit"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2094.857,"endTime":2096.837,"body":"review of the paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2097.287,"endTime":2102.117,"body":"If you show up with high self-efficacy,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2097.287,"endTime":2102.117,"body":"if you show up with a lot of cognitive"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2102.117,"endTime":2107.037,"body":"flexibility, that is probably"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2102.117,"endTime":2107.037,"body":"gonna change the way you use LLMs."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2107.067,"endTime":2109.767,"body":"And then they don't measure"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2107.067,"endTime":2109.767,"body":"anything about that in the study."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2110.007,"endTime":2113.067,"body":"They don't measure whether their"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2110.007,"endTime":2113.067,"body":"participants are coming in with"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2113.067,"endTime":2114.987,"body":"different levels of self-efficacy."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2114.987,"endTime":2118.257,"body":"So they're not checking all kinds"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2114.987,"endTime":2118.257,"body":"of baselines about the participants."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2118.527,"endTime":2121.977,"body":"They cite all this research, uh,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2118.527,"endTime":2121.977,"body":"they actually don't cite enough"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2121.977,"endTime":2125.217,"body":"research, but you know, they cite"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2121.977,"endTime":2125.217,"body":"some, at least, I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2125.217,"endTime":2127.497,"body":"it's bafflingly bad lit review."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2127.497,"endTime":2131.887,"body":"I would give it, you know, a d if I were"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2127.497,"endTime":2131.887,"body":"teaching a research methods class and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2131.947,"endTime":2136.477,"body":"someone, you know, at this level gave me"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2131.947,"endTime":2136.477,"body":"this, uh, you know, for instance, like"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2136.897,"endTime":2141.067,"body":"they have a section where they're talking"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2136.897,"endTime":2141.067,"body":"about what LLM users do or don't do."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2141.987,"endTime":2144.597,"body":"They don't define what an LLM user is."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2145.542,"endTime":2150.132,"body":"I don't think we have a comprehensive"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2145.542,"endTime":2150.132,"body":"observational, you know, understanding"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2150.162,"endTime":2153.312,"body":"of what people do with LLMs,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2150.162,"endTime":2153.312,"body":"quote unquote in the world."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2153.312,"endTime":2156.102,"body":"Like there's not, this is not"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2153.312,"endTime":2156.102,"body":"a trait that you're born with."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2156.102,"endTime":2157.992,"body":"You're not born a LLM user."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2157.992,"endTime":2159.162,"body":"Like, what does that mean?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2159.177,"endTime":2159.597,"body":"I think you're"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2159.597,"endTime":2160.857,"body":"born a vibe coder, though."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2161.002,"endTime":2163.462,"body":"Yeah, you could be, you could"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2161.002,"endTime":2163.462,"body":"be, but these are like, then these"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2163.462,"endTime":2166.312,"body":"are deep, these are psychological"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2163.462,"endTime":2166.312,"body":"things we could talk about."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2166.582,"endTime":2171.622,"body":"Oh, do you have a high, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2166.582,"endTime":2171.622,"body":"openness you know, do you have a, do"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2171.622,"endTime":2174.652,"body":"you have a large amount of creativity?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2174.682,"endTime":2176.992,"body":"Do you come in with a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2174.682,"endTime":2176.992,"body":"lot of self-efficacy?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2176.992,"endTime":2180.532,"body":"I mean, you know, I spend a lot of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2176.992,"endTime":2180.532,"body":"my time in technical circles arguing."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2180.922,"endTime":2186.502,"body":"We can measure big psychological states"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2180.922,"endTime":2186.502,"body":"people are in, you know, and then learn"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2186.502,"endTime":2189.082,"body":"about how they're interacting with"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2186.502,"endTime":2189.082,"body":"their environment because of that state."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2189.172,"endTime":2192.262,"body":"But also the environment"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2189.172,"endTime":2192.262,"body":"causes the state as well."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2192.772,"endTime":2195.352,"body":"You're giving someone"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2192.772,"endTime":2195.352,"body":"a disempowering task."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2195.472,"endTime":2198.052,"body":"You're telling them not to"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2195.472,"endTime":2198.052,"body":"write an essay, but to like"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2198.052,"endTime":2199.972,"body":"use Chat GPT to write an essay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2200.092,"endTime":2202.402,"body":"You're giving them a message"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2200.092,"endTime":2202.402,"body":"about their ownership."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2202.432,"endTime":2205.912,"body":"So you're baking the finding in, and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2202.432,"endTime":2205.912,"body":"I just gotta get this out because it"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2205.912,"endTime":2209.992,"body":"really freaking bothered me that there's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2205.912,"endTime":2209.992,"body":"like this generalization about what LLM"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2209.992,"endTime":2215.452,"body":"users do and they cite one study from"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2209.992,"endTime":2215.452,"body":"2021 that's about chatbot interactions."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2215.662,"endTime":2217.462,"body":"It's in an I Triple E outlet."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2217.492,"endTime":2222.172,"body":"It's like a really short,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2217.492,"endTime":2222.172,"body":"weird little engineering study."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2222.172,"endTime":2227.962,"body":"It's by some management IT people, it's 22"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2222.172,"endTime":2227.962,"body":"people in their study and they're talking"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2227.962,"endTime":2233.542,"body":"about, oh, you know, people offload"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2227.962,"endTime":2233.542,"body":"it's a weird use of cognitive load and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2234.217,"endTime":2237.397,"body":"I mean, that's before large"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2234.217,"endTime":2237.397,"body":"language models as we know them."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2237.397,"endTime":2237.517,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2237.652,"endTime":2239.782,"body":"In no way does it tell us."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2240.247,"endTime":2242.407,"body":"What LLM users are like."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2242.437,"endTime":2245.677,"body":"So that's the kind of, you know, claim."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2245.677,"endTime":2248.857,"body":"And if, unless you're a huge nerd like me"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2245.677,"endTime":2248.857,"body":"and you're always going, you're reading"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2248.857,"endTime":2253.027,"body":"the paper that's being cited in the paper"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2248.857,"endTime":2253.027,"body":"that's being cited in the other paper,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2253.357,"endTime":2259.507,"body":"you miss how we just start to push this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2253.357,"endTime":2259.507,"body":"garbage claims forward in research."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2259.862,"endTime":2260.242,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2260.302,"endTime":2261.112,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2261.772,"endTime":2267.682,"body":"I think, yeah, so, so"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2261.772,"endTime":2267.682,"body":"clearly we're annoyed, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2267.862,"endTime":2272.752,"body":"And frustrated and angry and I kind"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2267.862,"endTime":2272.752,"body":"of wanna articulate why that is,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2273.142,"endTime":2273.562,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2274.132,"endTime":2281.362,"body":"And I think for me it's because these"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2274.132,"endTime":2281.362,"body":"are questions worth asking, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2281.542,"endTime":2284.542,"body":"I do really want to know whether LLMs."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2285.832,"endTime":2289.312,"body":"Uh, change the way my students"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2285.832,"endTime":2289.312,"body":"think about problems, good or bad."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2289.492,"endTime":2295.372,"body":"I do want to know if the offloading of"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2289.492,"endTime":2295.372,"body":"cognitive tasks changes my own brain"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2295.432,"endTime":2300.082,"body":"and my own cognition and like welcomes"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2295.432,"endTime":2300.082,"body":"dementia earlier or pushes it off, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2300.262,"endTime":2302.062,"body":"I really wanna know these things."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2302.362,"endTime":2308.542,"body":"We need to know these things as a society,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2302.362,"endTime":2308.542,"body":"but to pretend like this paper answers"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2308.542,"endTime":2311.782,"body":"those questions is just completely wrong."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2311.812,"endTime":2317.902,"body":"Like, it, it is, it is irresponsible,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2311.812,"endTime":2317.902,"body":"in my opinion, to put out a paper"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2318.082,"endTime":2321.502,"body":"that claims to address these"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2318.082,"endTime":2321.502,"body":"really core, important questions."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2321.532,"endTime":2324.322,"body":"And it, it doesn't, it's sloppy."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2324.322,"endTime":2329.542,"body":"I was telling Cat if one of my"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2324.322,"endTime":2329.542,"body":"students submitted this as like"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2329.542,"endTime":2333.622,"body":"a final project, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2329.542,"endTime":2333.622,"body":"it would get a pretty poor grade."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2333.622,"endTime":2335.512,"body":"Like, this is not an a paper."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2335.872,"endTime":2339.832,"body":"And they're using their prestige"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2335.872,"endTime":2339.832,"body":"as a substitution for rigor,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2340.102,"endTime":2342.472,"body":"and it's not okay with me."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2342.472,"endTime":2344.752,"body":"And it, it bothers my deepest core."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2345.427,"endTime":2348.907,"body":"And they're, they're using the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2345.427,"endTime":2348.907,"body":"intimidation of pictures of brains"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2348.907,"endTime":2351.037,"body":"and math to make you feel bad."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2351.157,"endTime":2356.977,"body":"And we have serious problems to solve in"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2351.157,"endTime":2356.977,"body":"the world, you know, and some of these"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2356.977,"endTime":2361.737,"body":"problems include things like how do we"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2356.977,"endTime":2361.737,"body":"protect the brain health of children?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2361.887,"endTime":2365.577,"body":"By the way, way, the answer is"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2361.887,"endTime":2365.577,"body":"stuff like social services and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2365.577,"endTime":2368.517,"body":"sleep, and, you know, solving"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2368.592,"endTime":2369.432,"body":"Eating well."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2369.927,"endTime":2370.407,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2370.407,"endTime":2372.207,"body":"The answer is these huge things."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2372.207,"endTime":2376.347,"body":"It's, and there's this piece of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2372.207,"endTime":2376.347,"body":"it too for me, which is, it, it"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2376.347,"endTime":2380.067,"body":"actually was very challenging for"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2376.347,"endTime":2380.067,"body":"us to decide to talk about this."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2380.067,"endTime":2386.427,"body":"It's scary because a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2380.067,"endTime":2386.427,"body":"that I respect who otherwise are"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2386.427,"endTime":2390.237,"body":"talking and thinking about human"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2386.427,"endTime":2390.237,"body":"wellbeing jumped on this paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2390.687,"endTime":2395.997,"body":"But my thing is, if we allow"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2390.687,"endTime":2395.997,"body":"neuro bullshit to be the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2395.997,"endTime":2397.587,"body":"way we answer questions."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2398.092,"endTime":2401.452,"body":"Tomorrow they're gonna apply"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2398.092,"endTime":2401.452,"body":"this way of doing it to something"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2401.452,"endTime":2402.862,"body":"that you love and care about."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2403.582,"endTime":2405.922,"body":"And they're gonna tell you, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2403.582,"endTime":2405.922,"body":"don't get to do that because your"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2405.922,"endTime":2410.332,"body":"brain sucks, or your brain's gonna"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2405.922,"endTime":2410.332,"body":"melt out of your ears if you relax."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2410.332,"endTime":2416.362,"body":"Or if you, you know, um, maybe if you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2410.332,"endTime":2416.362,"body":"belong to a certain racial group or you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2416.362,"endTime":2422.842,"body":"know, persecuted group, like trans people"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2416.362,"endTime":2422.842,"body":"who could measure differently in some"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2422.842,"endTime":2428.787,"body":"measures, like if we allow pseudoscience"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2422.842,"endTime":2428.787,"body":"to propagate, it can be weaponized."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2428.817,"endTime":2430.047,"body":"I, I will go there."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2430.047,"endTime":2434.307,"body":"It can be weaponized to the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2430.047,"endTime":2434.307,"body":"greatest extent pseudoscience kills."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2434.487,"endTime":2435.117,"body":"It has"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2435.137,"endTime":2435.792,"body":"hm, hmm"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2436.497,"endTime":2443.517,"body":"You know, the way we talk about human"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2436.497,"endTime":2443.517,"body":"brains has led us to, to consign people."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2443.517,"endTime":2444.507,"body":"To asylums."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2445.722,"endTime":2446.082,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2446.757,"endTime":2448.887,"body":"And so we, yeah, we"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2446.757,"endTime":2448.887,"body":"take it really seriously."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2450.102,"endTime":2450.312,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2450.372,"endTime":2451.242,"body":"No, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2451.242,"endTime":2451.872,"body":"And I think."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2452.247,"endTime":2454.707,"body":"Like you said, like we were kind"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2452.247,"endTime":2454.707,"body":"of like trying to decide whether"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2454.707,"endTime":2456.447,"body":"to do this paper or talk about it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2456.447,"endTime":2461.547,"body":"And it was like, we have to because"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2456.447,"endTime":2461.547,"body":"this, this is why this is important."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2461.547,"endTime":2465.177,"body":"It's actually deadly to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2461.547,"endTime":2465.177,"body":"not address pseudoscience."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2465.227,"endTime":2468.737,"body":"And I, and I kind of wanna articulate"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2465.227,"endTime":2468.737,"body":"a point too that I think you said"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2468.737,"endTime":2473.837,"body":"to me yesterday, Cat, which was"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2468.737,"endTime":2473.837,"body":"like, you know, like these actually"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2473.837,"endTime":2477.707,"body":"like LLMs are amazing tools for"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2473.837,"endTime":2477.707,"body":"people who could benefit from them."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2477.707,"endTime":2483.977,"body":"And I think like slapping this idea"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2477.707,"endTime":2483.977,"body":"on it that they're gonna cause your"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2483.977,"endTime":2487.097,"body":"brain to melt out of your ears or"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2483.977,"endTime":2487.097,"body":"whatever, is really damaging to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2487.127,"endTime":2491.897,"body":"those people who actually could"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2487.127,"endTime":2491.897,"body":"benefit tremendously from using them."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2492.297,"endTime":2496.107,"body":"Like obviously we have complicated"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2492.297,"endTime":2496.107,"body":"feelings about AI and LLMs in"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2496.107,"endTime":2499.677,"body":"general, so I'm not here to"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2496.107,"endTime":2499.677,"body":"like stand by them in total."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2499.677,"endTime":2503.277,"body":"But it is a technology with"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2499.677,"endTime":2503.277,"body":"tremendous potential, especially"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2503.277,"endTime":2504.537,"body":"for certain groups of people."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2505.062,"endTime":2508.962,"body":"When we say ai, what we are"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2505.062,"endTime":2508.962,"body":"referencing is a huge amount of things."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2509.472,"endTime":2512.352,"body":"And I am not afraid of models."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2512.712,"endTime":2516.672,"body":"I've used models my whole life, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2512.712,"endTime":2516.672,"body":"know, well, not my whole life, but"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2517.002,"endTime":2521.262,"body":"as soon as I knew what math was, I"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2517.002,"endTime":2521.262,"body":"started, I started thinking about how"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2521.262,"endTime":2527.232,"body":"we use math and probabilities and, and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2521.262,"endTime":2527.232,"body":"I think we need to distinguish between"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2527.262,"endTime":2532.362,"body":"the large commercial actors that are"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2527.262,"endTime":2532.362,"body":"causing certain sociopolitical forces."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2532.962,"endTime":2536.712,"body":"You know, there's a political alignment"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2532.962,"endTime":2536.712,"body":"that you and I are both, you know, we're"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2536.892,"endTime":2540.762,"body":"deeply on the side of human wellbeing, you"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2536.892,"endTime":2540.762,"body":"know, we're deeply afraid of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2540.762,"endTime":2542.562,"body":"the things that are politically happening."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2543.132,"endTime":2544.392,"body":"We're here to fight against that."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2544.452,"endTime":2549.042,"body":"But that's a different thing than"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2544.452,"endTime":2549.042,"body":"saying, you know, what is happening"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2549.042,"endTime":2555.102,"body":"to you, when you sit down and you get"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2549.042,"endTime":2555.102,"body":"texts generated for you, and I've."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2555.147,"endTime":2557.367,"body":"Uh, take this point very seriously."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2557.367,"endTime":2565.947,"body":"Using a cognitive aid does not make"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2557.367,"endTime":2565.947,"body":"someone bad or stupid or less worthy."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2566.667,"endTime":2571.107,"body":"Having, having a difference in"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2566.667,"endTime":2571.107,"body":"having a cognitive impairment"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2571.107,"endTime":2573.177,"body":"doesn't make you less worthy, and"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2574.017,"endTime":2578.487,"body":"I am deeply troubled by the ableism"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2574.017,"endTime":2578.487,"body":"in some of this conversation."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2578.547,"endTime":2578.997,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2578.997,"endTime":2579.357,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2580.857,"endTime":2585.987,"body":"it's a very complicated conversation,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2580.857,"endTime":2585.987,"body":"but we cannot make that the bar, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2586.767,"endTime":2587.067,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2587.337,"endTime":2591.297,"body":"Something that was interesting to"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2587.337,"endTime":2591.297,"body":"me about the framing of these results,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2591.297,"endTime":2595.227,"body":"the interpretation of them, and this is"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2591.297,"endTime":2595.227,"body":"something where, gosh, it's such a good"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2595.227,"endTime":2600.507,"body":"skill to learn to read a paper for what"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2595.227,"endTime":2600.507,"body":"it says and then also read it thinking"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2600.927,"endTime":2605.547,"body":"what part of this is the researchers"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2600.927,"endTime":2605.547,"body":"interpretation that they are telling me,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2606.087,"endTime":2607.737,"body":"and I can make my own interpretation."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2607.737,"endTime":2612.867,"body":"So they are interpreting the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2607.737,"endTime":2612.867,"body":"hell out of these EEG results."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2612.867,"endTime":2615.417,"body":"And I felt very frustrated by that."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2615.867,"endTime":2620.992,"body":"Um, because I think there's a mix of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2615.867,"endTime":2620.992,"body":"both the things they observe about the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2621.152,"endTime":2624.927,"body":"EEG, but then their interpretation,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2621.152,"endTime":2624.927,"body":"their takeaways, they're like, this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2624.927,"endTime":2628.737,"body":"could lead to that are all mixed"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2624.927,"endTime":2628.737,"body":"in there in the analysis section."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2629.247,"endTime":2632.337,"body":"An example that I found"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2629.247,"endTime":2632.337,"body":"particularly confusing is."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2633.162,"endTime":2636.252,"body":"Trying to come away with a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2633.162,"endTime":2636.252,"body":"takeaway about this search engine"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2636.252,"endTime":2638.292,"body":"group versus the LLM group."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2638.982,"endTime":2644.532,"body":"They say this stuff about how in the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2638.982,"endTime":2644.532,"body":"search engine group, maybe people's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2644.742,"endTime":2651.282,"body":"visual processing is going more, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2644.742,"endTime":2651.282,"body":"actually the LLM group has some positive"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2651.282,"endTime":2656.452,"body":"themes, like the LLM group is doing more"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2651.282,"endTime":2656.452,"body":"planning, something like that to try to"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2656.452,"endTime":2659.272,"body":"find the actual section of the paper."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2659.752,"endTime":2664.372,"body":"Can I just say that scrolling through this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2659.752,"endTime":2664.372,"body":"PDF is also a barrier to understanding it?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2665.842,"endTime":2671.512,"body":"So there's really a lot of, even in this"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2665.842,"endTime":2671.512,"body":"paper, there's a lot of mixed findings."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2671.692,"endTime":2674.782,"body":"There are moments where they"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2671.692,"endTime":2674.782,"body":"say maybe there's something"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2674.782,"endTime":2676.132,"body":"positive about using LLMs."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2677.512,"endTime":2680.842,"body":"It's interesting to me that none of that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2677.512,"endTime":2680.842,"body":"is getting picked up on social media."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2680.892,"endTime":2684.452,"body":"Yeah, and I saw someone make"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2680.892,"endTime":2684.452,"body":"a really good point actually, which is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2684.452,"endTime":2689.732,"body":"that there's kind of this claim in the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2684.452,"endTime":2689.732,"body":"paper, you know, the, the, the sentence"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2689.732,"endTime":2693.752,"body":"in the abstract says something like,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2689.732,"endTime":2693.752,"body":"you know, the amount of activation was"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2693.752,"endTime":2699.632,"body":"like highest for brain, only mid for"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2693.752,"endTime":2699.632,"body":"search engine and lowest for LLM, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2699.992,"endTime":2704.282,"body":"And their interpretation of that"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2699.992,"endTime":2704.282,"body":"is that people are using their"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2704.282,"endTime":2705.842,"body":"brain in the brain only condition."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2706.202,"endTime":2710.252,"body":"But there's actually a separate argument"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2706.202,"endTime":2710.252,"body":"that someone could make, which is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2710.252,"endTime":2715.862,"body":"to say that maybe the brain is being"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2710.252,"endTime":2715.862,"body":"more efficient in the LLM condition."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2716.162,"endTime":2719.972,"body":"Like maybe actually less"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2716.162,"endTime":2719.972,"body":"brain activity is better."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2720.422,"endTime":2721.412,"body":"And what."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2721.712,"endTime":2724.412,"body":"Is the reason we think less"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2721.712,"endTime":2724.412,"body":"brain activity is worse."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2725.077,"endTime":2727.717,"body":"That's a framework that does"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2725.077,"endTime":2727.717,"body":"not exist in this paper."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2727.717,"endTime":2729.337,"body":"They don't make an argument for it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2729.337,"endTime":2733.207,"body":"They don't make a clear argument for"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2729.337,"endTime":2733.207,"body":"why brain activity should be high"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2733.207,"endTime":2734.737,"body":"or low and why that's good or bad."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2735.337,"endTime":2735.637,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2736.327,"endTime":2738.757,"body":"What's freaking annoying"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2736.327,"endTime":2738.757,"body":"is they make both arguments."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2738.967,"endTime":2744.127,"body":"So a really enlightening section is"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2738.967,"endTime":2744.127,"body":"on page 1 35, this section that's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2744.127,"endTime":2747.487,"body":"titled Neural Connectivity Patterns,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2744.127,"endTime":2747.487,"body":"where they try to sort of sum up"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2747.487,"endTime":2750.277,"body":"their thing and they say, they talk"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2747.487,"endTime":2750.277,"body":"out of both sides of their mouth."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2750.697,"endTime":2755.497,"body":"They say, wow, LLM group has the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2750.697,"endTime":2755.497,"body":"least extensive connectivity,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2755.707,"endTime":2759.547,"body":"and this is where they cite these"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2755.707,"endTime":2759.547,"body":"really scary sounding percentages."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2759.667,"endTime":2764.857,"body":"Which by the way, I think that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2759.667,"endTime":2764.857,"body":"creating averages and percentage drops"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2764.857,"endTime":2768.727,"body":"like this across highly idiographic"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2764.857,"endTime":2768.727,"body":"effects is something we could"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2768.727,"endTime":2771.607,"body":"probably spend a whole episode on."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2771.757,"endTime":2776.797,"body":"I mean, it's really, it's really, really"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2771.757,"endTime":2776.797,"body":"easy to mess this kind of comparison up."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2777.382,"endTime":2777.672,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2777.822,"endTime":2782.742,"body":"On the one hand saying the LLM group"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2777.822,"endTime":2782.742,"body":"shows the lowest connectivity they have"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2782.742,"endTime":2785.052,"body":"these really scary sounding percentages."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2785.232,"endTime":2792.672,"body":"55% reduced total DTF magnitude compared"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2785.232,"endTime":2792.672,"body":"to the brain only group in low frequency"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2792.672,"endTime":2794.562,"body":"semantic and monitoring networks."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2794.772,"endTime":2797.262,"body":"Do you think any human alive who is not."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2797.567,"endTime":2802.307,"body":"Ashley right now is reading that"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2797.567,"endTime":2802.307,"body":"or is not a neuroscientist is able"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2802.307,"endTime":2803.867,"body":"to read that and not feel scared."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2804.377,"endTime":2808.727,"body":"But then on the other hand, a couple"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2804.377,"endTime":2808.727,"body":"paragraphs down, they say, Hmm, well,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2808.727,"endTime":2815.567,"body":"you know, um, maybe LLMs have a more"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2808.727,"endTime":2815.567,"body":"automated scaffolded cognitive mode."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2815.747,"endTime":2817.187,"body":"I don't know what a cognitive mode is."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2817.187,"endTime":2817.547,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2817.547,"endTime":2822.527,"body":"And I have a PhD in psychology with"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2817.547,"endTime":2822.527,"body":"reduced reliance on endogenous semantic"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2822.527,"endTime":2824.747,"body":"construction or visual content evaluation."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2824.927,"endTime":2828.407,"body":"Essentially, if you're not looking at more"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2824.927,"endTime":2828.407,"body":"pictures, your brain will look different."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2828.437,"endTime":2828.977,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2829.487,"endTime":2832.097,"body":"So they're talking out of both"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2829.487,"endTime":2832.097,"body":"sides of their mouth constantly."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2832.097,"endTime":2834.137,"body":"They're using really undefined terms."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2834.197,"endTime":2837.577,"body":"They're saying things like, this is a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2834.197,"endTime":2837.577,"body":"cognitive mode, quote unquote, . You"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2837.577,"endTime":2838.957,"body":"know, again, define it for me."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2839.227,"endTime":2842.677,"body":"I also don't know what cognitive debt"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2839.227,"endTime":2842.677,"body":"means, which is a thing they say a bunch"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2842.677,"endTime":2845.467,"body":"and don't define and sort of just a just."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2845.822,"endTime":2853.322,"body":"Propose this really bafflingly scary"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2845.822,"endTime":2853.322,"body":"theory that you accrue this debt in your,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2853.382,"endTime":2855.272,"body":"you know, ability to solve problems."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2855.272,"endTime":2856.352,"body":"Well, that's a big claim."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2856.382,"endTime":2859.112,"body":"Okay, so let's talk about how"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2856.382,"endTime":2859.112,"body":"that functions in the brain."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2859.382,"endTime":2862.142,"body":"I have lots of bones to pick with this."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2862.172,"endTime":2866.192,"body":"That's my, that's my showing how"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2862.172,"endTime":2866.192,"body":"to read this section a little bit."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2866.432,"endTime":2866.702,"body":"How about"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2866.732,"endTime":2870.752,"body":"Yeah, I think in terms of like"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2866.732,"endTime":2870.752,"body":"thinking about how to read the paper"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2870.752,"endTime":2875.012,"body":"and like things that are red flags,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2870.752,"endTime":2875.012,"body":"like one thing for me that I think"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2875.012,"endTime":2880.802,"body":"about is the process of doing science"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2875.012,"endTime":2880.802,"body":"is not just collecting data, analyzing"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2880.802,"endTime":2884.642,"body":"it and showing it to people, which"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2880.802,"endTime":2884.642,"body":"is kind of what this artifact is."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2884.642,"endTime":2885.602,"body":"It's some data."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2885.632,"endTime":2887.702,"body":"We did some analysis of it,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2885.632,"endTime":2887.702,"body":"we're showing it to you."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2888.062,"endTime":2889.772,"body":"The process of science is."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2890.162,"endTime":2892.502,"body":"Actually developing an"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2890.162,"endTime":2892.502,"body":"argument for something."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2892.502,"endTime":2897.362,"body":"And that includes, as you said, defining"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2892.502,"endTime":2897.362,"body":"terms like cognitive debt, placing"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2897.452,"endTime":2901.562,"body":"those terms and that argument in the"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2897.452,"endTime":2901.562,"body":"context of other studies of a wealth"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2901.562,"endTime":2903.182,"body":"of literature that's already been done."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2903.542,"endTime":2908.372,"body":"Creating a framework for what you"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2903.542,"endTime":2908.372,"body":"expect to see or what you might see in"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2908.372,"endTime":2913.742,"body":"the data, testing your data and your"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2908.372,"endTime":2913.742,"body":"analysis against that framework, and"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2913.742,"endTime":2916.532,"body":"then seeing how well it holds up, right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2916.772,"endTime":2919.142,"body":"Like that's the process of science."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2919.172,"endTime":2923.732,"body":"This paper doesn't, like I, I don't,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2919.172,"endTime":2923.732,"body":"I don't really know what these"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2923.732,"endTime":2927.422,"body":"authors think in terms of their"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2923.732,"endTime":2927.422,"body":"scientific framework because it's"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2927.422,"endTime":2929.222,"body":"not really laid out for me here."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2929.252,"endTime":2932.672,"body":"There aren't even really clear"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2929.252,"endTime":2932.672,"body":"research questions in this paper."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2933.002,"endTime":2938.012,"body":"And that to me feels like we threw a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2933.002,"endTime":2938.012,"body":"bunch of stuff at the wall and we're"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2938.012,"endTime":2943.082,"body":"looking to see what sticks, and we threw"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2938.012,"endTime":2943.082,"body":"this analysis, which by the way is not"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2943.082,"endTime":2946.862,"body":"actually that common in EEG research is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2943.082,"endTime":2946.862,"body":"a little bit of a niche analysis, but we"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2946.997,"endTime":2947.192,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2947.192,"endTime":2948.062,"body":"it at the data."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2948.437,"endTime":2948.737,"body":"it?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2948.767,"endTime":2949.217,"body":"Why are"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2949.262,"endTime":2949.952,"body":"No, exactly."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2950.252,"endTime":2955.712,"body":"There's no exactly like there's in this"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2950.252,"endTime":2955.712,"body":"scientific process, we make a argument for"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2955.742,"endTime":2960.752,"body":"using particular analyses because we think"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2955.742,"endTime":2960.752,"body":"that they'll answer particular questions."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2960.962,"endTime":2963.182,"body":"I don't know why they chose this analysis"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2963.392,"endTime":2965.762,"body":"because, It's it's,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2966.212,"endTime":2969.632,"body":"they picked something that seemed fancy."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2969.632,"endTime":2971.012,"body":"They're throwing NLP at it."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2971.012,"endTime":2972.422,"body":"Why'd you throw NLP at it?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2972.632,"endTime":2975.662,"body":"Like, why are you doing this"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2972.632,"endTime":2975.662,"body":"named entity recognition thing?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2975.662,"endTime":2979.952,"body":"Like the why of the paper, which is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2975.662,"endTime":2979.952,"body":"like the, probably the main comment"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2979.952,"endTime":2981.842,"body":"I ever leave on my students' papers."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2981.872,"endTime":2983.702,"body":"Why, why, why, why why'd you do this?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2983.702,"endTime":2984.482,"body":"Why'd you choose this?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2984.482,"endTime":2987.362,"body":"Like, that is not evident to me here."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2987.362,"endTime":2988.982,"body":"And that is a major red flag."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2989.687,"endTime":2995.627,"body":"It reads like post hoc, oh, it reads"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2989.687,"endTime":2995.627,"body":"like post hoc looking for effects, and the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2995.627,"endTime":2998.177,"body":"limitations section is bafflingly weak."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":2998.672,"endTime":2999.632,"body":"It's so short."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":2999.977,"endTime":3000.967,"body":"it's so short."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3000.967,"endTime":3003.907,"body":"It hardly goes into all of"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3000.967,"endTime":3003.907,"body":"the methodological things."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3004.052,"endTime":3006.782,"body":"You know, there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3004.052,"endTime":3006.782,"body":"massive obvious errors."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3007.172,"endTime":3013.562,"body":"There's typos, there's um, there's the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3007.172,"endTime":3013.562,"body":"signs and signals that we look for to ask."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3013.592,"endTime":3016.532,"body":"Has this person really thought"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3013.592,"endTime":3016.532,"body":"through like this methodology,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3016.532,"endTime":3017.972,"body":"do they know how to use EEG?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3018.242,"endTime":3020.162,"body":"Do they understand the limitations of it?"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3020.162,"endTime":3023.012,"body":"I don't have that confidence at all."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3023.282,"endTime":3025.832,"body":"They switch units of analysis constantly."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3025.832,"endTime":3029.552,"body":"So at, on one hand they're talking about"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3025.832,"endTime":3029.552,"body":"the text on the, then, then suddenly"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3029.732,"endTime":3031.382,"body":"they're analyzing between sessions."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3031.652,"endTime":3035.342,"body":"They're not clear about the hypotheses,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3031.652,"endTime":3035.342,"body":"the existing previous literature"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3035.492,"endTime":3036.992,"body":"that justifies looking at it."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3036.992,"endTime":3041.912,"body":"In this way, we can all analyze data"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3036.992,"endTime":3041.912,"body":"and I could make these little brain"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3041.912,"endTime":3045.662,"body":"charts right now and maybe my research"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3041.912,"endTime":3045.662,"body":"would actually get some shares."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3045.662,"endTime":3049.052,"body":"My preprints, which I can't get published"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3045.662,"endTime":3049.052,"body":"in software research journals 'cause"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3049.052,"endTime":3053.432,"body":"they don't wanna publish psychology,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3049.052,"endTime":3053.432,"body":"you know, would actually get some play."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3053.482,"endTime":3058.792,"body":"I think this paper was written"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3053.482,"endTime":3058.792,"body":"to create a big splash to get attention"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3060.277,"endTime":3060.667,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3061.132,"endTime":3063.262,"body":"to scare people about LLMs."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3063.262,"endTime":3063.892,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3064.447,"endTime":3069.477,"body":"To get the shortest path from a"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3064.447,"endTime":3069.477,"body":"weird document someone wrote to a time"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3069.477,"endTime":3075.687,"body":"article, maybe, to prop up the pieces"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3069.477,"endTime":3075.687,"body":"of hardware that are associated with"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3075.687,"endTime":3080.337,"body":"this, this paper maybe, um, I don't"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3075.687,"endTime":3080.337,"body":"know if there's a product in here."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3080.337,"endTime":3081.627,"body":"I mean, MIT Media Lab"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3081.837,"endTime":3084.897,"body":"there are"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3081.837,"endTime":3084.897,"body":"multiple products in here."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3085.257,"endTime":3090.627,"body":"Um, at least one of them is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3085.257,"endTime":3090.627,"body":"directly associated with at"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3090.627,"endTime":3092.487,"body":"least one of the authors."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3093.027,"endTime":3093.717,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3094.767,"endTime":3097.527,"body":"One of the authors"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3094.767,"endTime":3097.527,"body":"is like an angel investor."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3098.697,"endTime":3099.207,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3099.927,"endTime":3106.017,"body":"I always ask the question, what is"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3099.927,"endTime":3106.017,"body":"this person getting for doing this"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3106.017,"endTime":3108.207,"body":"research or this science communication?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3108.207,"endTime":3108.447,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3108.447,"endTime":3113.187,"body":"Like, I essentially do not"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3108.447,"endTime":3113.187,"body":"trust science communicators who."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3114.207,"endTime":3114.657,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3114.657,"endTime":3119.697,"body":"Let's say get money from supplement"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3114.657,"endTime":3119.697,"body":"companies or for selling a"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3119.697,"endTime":3121.197,"body":"particular piece of hardware."},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3121.197,"endTime":3126.177,"body":"It is a huge, huge red flag for me"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3121.197,"endTime":3126.177,"body":"in terms of being able to believe"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3126.177,"endTime":3130.407,"body":"their science and to believe their"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3126.177,"endTime":3130.407,"body":"motivation is in the right place."},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3132.297,"endTime":3137.367,"body":"I'm not gonna say we can read other"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3132.297,"endTime":3137.367,"body":"people's minds unless we had an EEG cap"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3137.632,"endTime":3137.852,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3137.877,"endTime":3142.047,"body":"only if we could do, wait,"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3137.877,"endTime":3142.047,"body":"let's just order one and then"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3142.287,"endTime":3142.737,"body":"we can read"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3142.842,"endTime":3146.262,"body":"one and then we'll know the"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3142.842,"endTime":3146.262,"body":"internal processing states of all"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3146.262,"endTime":3149.592,"body":"these people and we'll be able to"},{"speaker":"Cat","startTime":3146.262,"endTime":3149.592,"body":"find the grift part of the brain"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3149.642,"endTime":3151.492,"body":"oh, there's definitely"},{"speaker":"Ashley","startTime":3149.642,"endTime":3151.492,"body":"a grift part of the brain."}]}