Mia Hanks Shares Personal Insights About the Silent Dangers of Covert Narcissism

In this episode of Inspiring Journeys, Mia Hanks shares her powerful story of surviving 29 years of narcissistic abuse in a marriage with a covert narcissist. She discusses the subtle manipulations, love bombing, and emotional control that make it difficult for victims to recognize the abuse. Mia opens up about the emotional and psychological toll, including trauma bonding, anxiety, and walking on eggshells, which made leaving her abuser so challenging. With the support of family and therapy, she gradually realized the truth and found the courage to break free. Mia also talks about her healing journey, how sharing her story through her memoir Bride Made and creating the Sparkle of Hope bracelet is helping to raise awareness and empower other survivors. Her message is clear: no one is ever stuck in an abusive situation, and with the right support, healing and freedom are always possible.

Key Topics Discussed:

• Covert vs. overt narcissism, subtle manipulation, hidden abuse, entrapment.
• Emotional turmoil, trauma bonding, constant anxiety, difficulty leaving.
• Recognizing abuse, overcoming fear, breaking free, reclaiming identity.
• Healing, advocacy, Bride Made memoir, Sparkle of Hope bracelet, survivor empowerment.

Key Takeaways:

• Support and self-awareness are key to breaking free
• Healing and advocacy empower survivors
• Societal and cultural pressures can keep victims trapped
• There is always a path to freedom and recovery

Mia's Bio: Mia J. Hanks is a survivor of narcissistic abuse and the author of Bride-Made: A Memoir. After nearly 30 years in a covertly abusive marriage, she is dedicated to raising awareness about narcissism and helping others recognize the signs of toxic relationships. Through her memoir, Mia shares personal stories, practical insights, and hope for those seeking to break free. Her mission is to let victims know they are not alone and to empower them to reclaim their lives with strength and confidence.

More About Mia:

Website: miajhanks.com/

Book: Bride Made: A Memoir

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Chapters

• 0:04 Surviving Narcissistic Abuse in Marriage
• 8:01 Recognizing and Escaping Narcissistic Abuse
• 20:47 Freedom From Narcissistic Abuse

Transcript

Lauri Wakefield
00:38
Hi, welcome to the Inspiring Journeys podcast. Thanks for joining me today. I'm your host, Lauri Wakefield, and my guest today is Mia Hanks. Do you want to say hi, Mia? 

Mia Hanks
00:50
Hi, how are you? 

Lauri Wakefield
00:52
Okay? So Mia is joining us today. She is a survivor of narcissistic abuse in a marriage and she's passionate about spreading awareness and helping other victims find their voices. She was married to a covert narcissist for 29 years. So welcome. 

1:05
Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. 

Lauri Wakefield
01:08
So when I was looking at your website, you had a couple quotes on there, but there were two things that spoke to me and I wanted to share them with the audience. One of the quotes was "What I had failed to realize during our courtship was that it had been glamour, smoke and mirrors. I had not been courted, I had been acquired." And then the other one was actually part of a longer quote, but it says "We were the perfect couple in his twisted up world. I owed him and he owned me." So those are quotes. Are they in the book that you wrote? 

Mia Hanks
01:58
They are yes, okay. 

Lauri Wakefield
02:00
yeah, okay. So why don't we go back and talk a little bit about what happened and obviously share what you're comfortable with sharing and what you think is going to help people who are listening? 

Mia Hanks
02:12
Sure. Yes, so I got married very young. I was 21 years old and came into the marriage 30 plus years ago. No one was talking about narcissism. I had never heard the term narcissistic abuse and I saw red flags early but swept them under the rug, feeling like they were personality quirks and really like with a typical narcissist. You tend to get swept up in this relationship and really involved in it before you realize what's happening and a lot of times we as victims don't even realize we're in an abusive pattern until we are so far into it that it seems that there's no way out. 

Lauri Wakefield
02:48
Yes, yeah, I actually my mother was, my dad was like that. So I, from personal experience, unfortunately never had a long, I can't say, because prior to the marriage that I'm in right now, I had a couple of relationships that were not great and there were probably traits like that that fortunately the relationship didn't last that long. But yeah, it's easy and I think too, like when you first met him, was he the one who noticed you? 

Mia Hanks
03:13
Yes, definitely, he's the one that pursued me and with grand gestures and all this attention, this kind of over the top what they call love bombing and yeah, of course it got my attention because it was just so over the top and gifts and just like I say, grand gestures and all this attention, how could you not notice that? Yeah, he was, it was very good at the love bombing part of it and that's how I initially got swept up in this relationship. 

Lauri Wakefield
03:30
Because it makes you feel special. 

Mia Hanks
03:33
It does.

Lauri Wakefield
03:34
Yes, okay, so before you, did you get married fairly soon after you met him, or was it a long, longer term engagement? 

Mia Hanks
03:43
We we dated for a year and then got engaged, and then we were engaged a year. So two years from the time I met to the time I married him. 

Lauri Wakefield
03:49
So did you have thoughts like, prior to marrying him, that you were? I'm not so sure about this. 

Mia Hanks
03:54
I don't recall. I did see some traits in him that I didn't like, but I could see early on that he struggled with putting himself in someone else's shoes, seeing things from other people's perspectives and really self-reflecting. But at 21 years old it just didn't seem like those traits, didn't seem like they would be a problem later on. It's once we get married and things will get better and he has these quirks. But it's okay, we all have quirks. So it was very easy to shove those aside. 

Lauri Wakefield
04:20
Yeah, because you didn't have the experience or the wisdom really to know, and now your parents. Did they get along well, or what was that relation? 

Mia Hanks
04:27
Yes, I came from a very stable home, very idyllic childhood, and I came out in the world thinking that everybody was good because I was only surrounded by good people. I did not have real strong boundaries, but I don't attribute that to anything bad other than the fact that I, growing up, I just didn't need boundaries. I wasn't in situations where I needed to put up boundaries. I was like, I say, just this very idyllic bubble that I existed in and just did not think that people would have bad intentions.
 
Lauri Wakefield
05:04
Right. 

Mia Hanks
05:05
Very naive, very naive, and I just really wanted to see the good in everyone. 

Lauri Wakefield
05:11
Yeah, and trusting, obviously that goes along with it, yes. So as your relationship progressed, you got married and did you have people on the outside, like your parents, that noticed anything, or family members or friends that,

Mia Hanks
05:49 
Yes, so the only people that saw inside like behind closed doors, were my parents. 

Lauri Wakefield
05:55
Okay. 

Mia Hanks
05:56
And definitely they were seeing things, I would say fairly early on that they weren't loving. But you know they thought I was happy, so you don't want to interfere. And but as time went on things progressively got worse and definitely they did start bringing up concerns which, as part of another term you hear a lot is trauma bonding. My reaction was always to defend my husband. So they, even though they would bring up concerns, they couldn't seem to get very far because I would shut it down and say, oh, he's just having a stressful time at work or, yeah, I would make excuses for him, just try to uphold his image constantly. It was difficult for them to watch this kind of gradually fall apart and they just really couldn't do much because I was so resistant to basically waking up and seeing what was going on around me. 

Lauri Wakefield
06:34
You felt a loyalty to him and to your marriage.

Mia Hanks
06:37
Yes.

Lauri Wakefield
06:38 
Yeah. So other people on the outside, like maybe co-workers and friends, was he pretty well liked? 

Mia Hanks
06:45
Yeah, very much he's not. He wasn't, like I say, can't self-reflect, he's not able to see things from other people's perspectives and in a sense I'm sure he's not the most well-liked person in the world. Right, he's quirky, but because he is a covert narcissist he presents to the outside world as anything but a narcissist. So he comes across as being very humble, very kind, very generous, very empathetic. So people outside, even friends of ours, they believe him to be that person. 
06:08
And of course, I'm right there behind him holding up this image, which is a complete lie. He's not this way, but I'm helping him project this image that, yeah, he's this great guy he's father of. Yeah, that is very interesting then when the relationship falls apart for the victim, because then you're in a situation where who's going to believe you? Right, what goes was abusive.
 
Lauri Wakefied
06:43
Right, because you didn't share anything with them, or there wasn't anything that they saw that indicated that Right. Okay, so do you think there's a difference between a narcissist and a covert narcissist? 

Mia Hanks
6:51
It's the same general traits, but the difference is how they present A narcissist, and we tend to use that term way too much. Just because someone is arrogant or because they are overconfident doesn't mean they are a quote-unquote narcissist. They're just arrogant and overconfident. But a true narcissist. They all have the same kind of characteristics, but the overt narcissist they present as such right to the outside world, the covert presents complete opposite, but at their core they're all the same. 
07:29
They think they're the most important person in the room. They demand special attention, special treatment. They tend to think everyone's jealous of them, which is really interesting. They think that everyone wants what they have, which kind of creates a paranoia. They tend to be a little paranoid. They only want to associate with people that they think are on their level. It's just crazy and they really believe these things at their core. It's not just an idea that they have in their head. They really, truly in their heart, believe these things about themselves. 

Lauri Wakefield
08:07
Yeah, so the covert is just sneakier about it. 

Mia Hanks
08:10
Much sneakier and the covert's really considered the most dangerous type of narcissist, because they are so sneaky and because the victim in most cases has no support because no one will believe them. This person is so different on the outside than they are on the inside behind closed doors.
 
Lauri Wakefield
08:30
Okay, so, as a victim of it, what are some of the? What are some okay, you call it signs of narcissistic abuse syndrome? So what are some of the things that people might, who are in a relationship like that, they might feel or they might do? 

Mia Hanks
08:45
I think a big thing is this whole concept of walking on eggshells you constantly I describe in my book. I had to think five steps ahead all the time because you don't want to trigger these people. My ex-husband could have a complete meltdown that would rival any toddler Literally a toddler style meltdown, if something didn't go his way. So I learned early on it's just easier to keep the peace. 
09:13
So, these victims. They tend to walk on eggshells. They tend to be in this fight or flight mode all the time. They're probably, because of that, suffering from physical symptoms. I suffered from chronic pain because it was just my body trying to manifest all of this stress. All the time you tend to lose sight of yourself. You aren't able to really identify what your goals are Like. I had a therapist once ask what's on your bucket list and I said I don't know. I honestly sat there for several, several seconds and just in silence and said I honestly don't know. I don't know what I want to do. I don't know what my I have no goals because you give up your whole life for them.

Lauri Wakefield
09:51
Yeah, and on your website you have some of the some of the characteristics or traits that you know are things that people might think or feel, and self-doubting guilt is one of them, and then, the loss of self-identity, which is pretty much what you were talking about with not having a bucket list because your whole world revolved around him yeah, so you didn't have,

Lauri Wakefield
10:20
Yeah, whole world revolved around him, yeah, so you didn't have. Yeah, it's yeah, it's easy to get lost in that. So did you when you finally decided that it was not healthy and you wanted to get out? Was it something that you, did it take a couple of years? Did it take a little? You know what I'm saying, like within you. 

Mia Hanks
10:38
Yeah, I knew it wasn't healthy. I started to. That fog started to lift. Probably the last couple years. I really went 27 years or so, 25 at least thinking I was going to make this work, that I those last two or three years I knew it wasn't healthy. I ultimately once my kids were grown I think that was a big piece of it too Once they were grown and I felt like I had accomplished that piece, I felt like I had a little more freedom to exit this marriage. 
11:02
And yeah, it really took some thought and figuring out how I was going to do it and I was just waiting for all the stars to align to give me an excuse to get to go and ultimately that happened. I had this moment where I saw a path out and I took it and I think I don't regret that. Obviously, I wish I would have done it sooner, but yeah, and once I did leave, I fortunately didn't go back. A lot of times I think victims end up getting guilted into going back, and he certainly tried. 
11:34
And. I certainly dealt with that immense guilt because I was still trauma bonded. I'm still thinking I have to protect him, I have to make his life great. So I dealt with a lot of guilt but fortunately I had enough people around to be saying no, don't go back. And really I think with a narcissist, if you go back, chances that you're going to get out a second time are probably slim to none, because then they've won, they've won and I think it really changes the game.
 
Lauri Wakefield
12:05
Yeah, their reins are going to be tighter on you. 

Mia Hanks
12:07
Yes, yes. 

Lauri Wakefield
12:45
Yeah. So your kids? How did they? Did they understand why you wanted to divorce them? 

Mia Hanks
12:53
Yes, yes about him sadly it became their normal and I hate that. I hate the fact that they grew up in that environment with that as their normal um now that they're older, they do understand. They understand narcissism. We've had it, we've had discussions about it. They still have a relationship with their father. 
13:30
Um, I certainly don't discourage them from doing so he is their father, but they are very aware that he has issues and so I think, as long as they're aware and because they are grand now, we've been able to have a lot of conversation about this. And I think it's been healthy. They're very glad I left and both of them wish I would have left a lot sooner, but hindsight is 20-20.

Lauri Wakefield
13:58
Yeah, sometimes it's not that easy either. Like when we first started talking I said something about my dad and I know my mom when she went through it was actually all kind of like physical, emotional, mental abuse we all did. But I remember asking her one time I was probably 16 years old and my dad got angry about something anyway, kicked us all out of the house in the Middle of winter. We were standing outside on the front porch. He took my mom's purse. We couldn't go anywhere, shut all the lights off and I said to my mom I looked at her and I was like, Mom, like why don't you leave him, why?" And she looked at me and she said, "Because your dad told me that if I ever tried to leave him, he would find me and he would kill me." 

Mia Hanks
14:47
Yeah, yeah, there's fear. Right, when you trigger these people, you're not dealing with the neurotypical person, and so there's a lot of fear around what happens when they're triggered. And I saw the meltdowns and while my ex-husband was never physical I think that was the next I think it was coming it could been sure I really do he was getting more aggressive, yeah, as the years went on and I do believe eventually it could have become physical, but, yeah, there's a lot of fear around leaving them and how will they react and are they going to come after me? You just don't know. Yeah, they get angry when they're discarded. When somebody tells them no, it really sets them off. 

Lauri Wakefield
15:34
Right. Yeah, and I was going to say too, he could have. You may have had those feelings about him becoming capable of becoming more aggressive because he sensed that maybe you were pulling away. That could have been the reason, yeah, and I think it's great that you're able to talk to your kids about it and that they're able to talk, that you guys are able to have healthy conversations. I know my mother passed away a couple of years ago, but she would never validate us with things that we saw and things that we experienced. And I think as you go through life, you have a choice either to work through things and to let them go and to recognize that that wasn't normal and that's not like nobody deserved it and he had issues or whatever. But when you don't get that validation from the parent, I think that can be. It doesn't bother me anymore because I know where I'm at with things, but at the time it's "Really mom? Seriously?"

Mia Hanks
16:36
I understand that from her perspective a little bit, because I think when my kids were younger, I did the same thing. I think we so badly want to feel like we're normal, we want to feel like our family is normal and that we have it all together. And I think for myself, I did the same thing. I lied to myself and you just say, of course, things that he did, they happened, but you just tell yourself that that didn't really, it didn't really happen that way, just want you're so desperate to want to be a normal family, and so I think that's probably where that comes from. 

Lauri Wakefield
17:14
Yeah, and I think when you're the mom in that situation, it's like you're divided within yourself, because it's like there's a part of you that knows it's not normal. And you have to convince yourself. So it's like an insanity playing out in your head. 

Mia Hanks
17:31
Yeah, yeah, and another issue I had as far as leaving sooner. One thing that kept playing through my head was I don't want to share custody of my kids with him, and so it's like it becomes the lesser of two evils. So there's just so many factors of why someone will will stay for decades, and I certainly wouldn't encourage anybody to make the decisions I made as far as staying, but there are so many layers to why people do stay. It's a very complicated situation. 

Lauri Wakefield
18:01
Yeah. So your kids do you think that they'll be just more aware of somebody with those character traits trying to approach them to be in a relationship because they're going to have more of a sense of like, where with you, you had a very like innocent childhood, you didn't see anything, so you had nothing to reference. But your kids do. So for them it's probably helps them to weed out people they may not want to get close to, right?

Mia Hanks
18:29
Yeah, I hope so. They do have more life experience than I had at their age and so, for that matter, it is good they are not so naive, they know that not everyone's good and that people have personality disorders, and they fully understand. And, yeah, they're definitely more educated than I was and hopefully they do. They would notice red flags more readily than I would when I was their age.

Lauri Wakefield
18:57
Right. Yeah. Because I know with myself, boy, I was like any sign that and maybe not somebody I was involved with, but a person like that they could  get aggressive or anything like that. I was like, oh, stay away. 

Mia Hanks
19:12
Yeah, yeah, you pick up on it really fast.

Lauri Wakefield
19:15
Yeah, and I think too like one thing and I don't know that it's a bad thing. I think, like for myself it's I know how to and cause I've been in situations, maybe not like where there's physical violence that could have happened, but like where I know how to keep the conversation calm and diverted away from and I actually think that's not a bad thing to have. You know what I mean? Cause, because things can escalate and especially if they notice fear and you can make them feel more aggressive towards you.

Mia Hanks
19:50
So, definitely they feel more empowered. Yes, my husband loved to incite fear. It just it puts them on a high. If they can feel like they can keep everybody in a state of fear and everyone's a little bit scared of them. It just makes them feel that much more powerful and that much more importantly,  in control. 

Lauri Wakefield
20:11
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when did you seek out support? You were working with a therapist. Was it after you left him, or was it during the time that you were still married to him? 

Mia Hanks
20:23
Yeah, so the last year or so of our marriage, he wanted to go to marriage counseling. A little known fact about narcissists is that most of them love to go to therapy because most of the time they can manipulate the therapist. So, they want to take you to therapy because it's a way for them to get what they want. So we yeah, we went to counseling with a therapist and he did all the talking. We went once a week for probably 10 sessions. He basically did all the talking. He would show up and want to talk about everything that was wrong with me that needed to be changed. 
21:00
The therapist kind of just listened. And after about the 10th session and I've never heard of this in my life, but after about the 10th session she looked at him and she literally kicked him out of therapy. She told him. She said, "As much as I would like to sit here and take your money, I cannot continue to do this because I can't help you." And yeah, and she told him. She said, "You can't see things from other people's perspectives; and, therefore, there's no hope here." And I thought I'm sitting there going. I can't believe I'm watching a therapist kick somebody out of therapy. 
21:38
I didn't think that happened. I later went back in secret and met with her again and yeah, and we talked and she basically said, "Do you want out?" 
and I said, "Yes", and she said, "You need to go, you need to get out of this", and I think even though and she said you need to go, you need to get out of this, and I think, even though my parents had said you need to be out of there, I think there was something about having that validation from a quote, unquote, right, exactly. That really gave me the courage to say, yeah, I got to go. 

Lauri Wakefield
22:15
And I think too, it wasn't because of all these things that you were telling her. It was actually what she observed from him. It was so that made it even more valid, I think. 

Mia Hanks
22:26
It was interesting For, like they say, about 10 sessions, she really just sat and listened and observed our dynamic and yeah, she told me straight up. Of course, I reached out to her. She didn't call me up and say leave, she waited for me to reach out to her. Reached out to her, she didn't call me out to say leave, she waited for me to reach out to her. And I said, and I went in and basically said tell me more and it takes a lot of therapy. 
22:54
And yeah, and she, just she was very, somewhat disturbed by the dynamic and said this is abuse and if you want to stay, that's your prerogative, but if, if you want out, you need to go. And she asked me, she said, do you have somewhere to go? And I told her I did, but oh, I know. She asked me if she could send me some resources and I said sure, and what she sent me, it just shook me. She sent me an article on mental abuse and am I being mentally abused? And then she sent me a link to my local women's shelter and that was just. That was eye-opening. I thought this therapist just sent me a link to a women's shelter and, if anything, told me to leave, even though she told me you need to get out. That was that spoke volumes to me.
 
Lauri Wakefield
23:40
When you did call her back I'm sure that she was it made her feel like she had made some type of an impact to where you know, you saw something that she, that she observed herself and was able to help you with and help you understand what was going on, because you probably even at the time, like you, had things that you didn't like, things that you wanted to get away from, but you probably couldn't really make sense out of all of it. You know what I mean? It was like a jumbled up mess in your head.

Mia Hanks
24:04
Definitely yeah.
 
Lauri Wakefield
24:05
All right, let's talk about your book. So the book that you wrote is called Bride Made. That's M-A-D-E and it's a memoir. It was published in 2024. It's an award-winning memoir about your experiences and the book actually received the Literary Titan Book Award, which it's the ability. One of the things that they look at is the ability to transform complex topics into accessible and compelling narratives that captivate readers and enhance understanding. So that's really an accomplishment. That really is.

Mia Hanks
24:37
Yeah, I was very pleased to be considered for that. 

Lauri Wakefield
24:40
Yes, yeah, so when you decided to write the book, it was probably like a healing experience for you too. 

Mia Hanks
24:46
It was. I wasn't expecting it to be. I was really writing it. I was trying to find as much as I could about. I just wanted to do a lot of reading on the subject of narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, and there's so much literature out there, but it all seems to be written by therapists and psychologists. Great information, but it's all really academic. So I was looking for something like a more insider point of view and I couldn't really find anything. So that's why I decided to. I thought maybe a memoir might be helpful, since I didn't see a lot of that out there. But in the process it really did end up being therapeutic and I was pleasantly surprised. I thought it might be traumatizing, but I found it freeing. As I recounted these stories and all these incidents, I felt, as I wrote them, put them on paper, yeah, I could let it go, I didn't have to hold it in my mind anymore. Definitely a therapeutic experience. 
25:46
Yeah, and that's true. I think, when experts can understand the different facets and they can as observers but when somebody's actually gone through it, those are the types of stories or books that people you the facts, but I think they can't provide the emotion right, because they have not lived it. It's a different perspective. 

Lauri Wakefield
26:06
Yes, yeah, so another thing that you offer is it's a bracelet and it's called a sparkle of hope bracelet. So why don't you talk a little bit about that? 

Mia Hanks
26:14
Yeah, I wanted to design a something that's I don't know. It's raising awareness. That's what I just want to raise awareness about narcissism, about narcissistic abuse. And so I designed this bracelet and I used the primary color and it is purple because that is the color of the ribbon for domestic abuse awareness. And then there's and there's blues in there. I use the colors off of my logo for my TikTok account, which is NPD and me, and yeah, I just, I just wanted to design something that for survivors or really for anyone, to just commemorate an awareness for narcissistic abuse. It's something that I think so many I know men are trapped in it as well, but I think a lot primarily women, and there's just so many women out there that are in these relationships and feel like they can't get out yeah, and that's why I called it a Sparkle of Hope. 

Lauri Wakefield
26:10
Yeah, and I think too, even for women who are in the midst of it, just to be able to wear something like that and look down and have it encourage them. The different stones that you used, because it's very pretty. I saw it's available on Etsy. I'll link to that in the show notes. So was there anything else that you wanted to add to what we've talked about? We covered a lot of stuff and I can't really think of any more questions that I have. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with the audience? 

Mia Hanks
26:44
Yeah, I always like to end with an up note that if you're in one of these relationships or think that you're in a relationship with a narcissist and you want to get out, I think it's really easy to feel stuck, to feel like you're just so entwined and you can never untangle. But I do like to leave everyone with that message that you are never stuck, even though it feels that way. There are resources out there, there's help out there, there's people that can help you, and don't ever stay just because you think you can't get out. Because you can, you really can.
 
Mia Hanks
26:20
Or stay and think that things are going to change or that you're going to be able to change that person. 

Mia Hanks
26:26
No, and narcissism, unfortunately it doesn't. Studies show it does not get better over time and people think if I hang in there a little bit longer it's going to get better. But studies have shown that it gets worse with age and I certainly found that out in my situation. Every year just got worse and worse. Yeah, while there's still time and while you still have life, get out and find a new life. It is possible. 

Mia Hanks
26:50
Okay, that's going to wrap things up for this episode. Thanks so much for joining me today. If you'd like more information about Mia, you can visit her website at MiaJHanks [dot] com and I'll include a link in the show notes and then I'll also link to, like I said, the bracelet and also the book that she wrote. If you'd like to see the show notes for today's podcast, you can find them on my website at inspired living for women [dot] com. The show notes will be listed under podcast Show Notes, Episode 12. If you'd like to join me as I continue my conversations with other guests exploring topics for women over 50, please be sure to subscribe to the Inspiring Journeys podcast. Thanks again and have a great day. 

Mia Hanks
28:42
Goodbye everybody.