Ep. 79: Lit Recs: Celebrating Women From History

Join Amanda and Kelsey on Lit Vibes Only as they highlight captivating books for Women's History Month, featuring powerful narratives of historical women and untold stories. Discover their personal reading adventures and explore novels that celebrate trailblazing women you need to know about.

00:00 Welcome to Lit Vibes Only

02:20 Our Current Reads

05:28 Celebrating Women's History Month

07:00 Isola by Allegra Goodman

13:09 A Piece of Red Cloth by Leonie Norrington

19:40 The Indifferent Stars Above by Daniel James Brown

26:24 Yellow Wife by Sadeqa Johnson

31:36 Conclusion and Social Media Reminders

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. You can also email us at litvibesonlypodcast@gmail.com We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Transcript

Amanda 0:07

Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. I'm Amanda, the insightful, thrill seeker and historical fiction nerd.

Kelsey 0:15

And I'm Kelsey, the unhinged, diehard, romantic and fantasy reader. Welcome to our podcast. Welcome in our Lit Rex episode. First we would like to point you towards our socials. That is, of course, on Instagram at live vibes only Underscore. Podcast and on TikTok and YouTube at Live Vibes Only podcast. And new Edition. New were edition.'cause this will be like three months in. Mm-hmm. By the time you hear this we started Fable Accounts this year and that is where we created book clubs so that you can decide what books we read for our lit or credit episodes. Mm-hmm. And so that's exciting and that's a new thing we're doing this year because we want to give you more of an opportunity to have. Your voice heard and like what you are reading and what you'd like to read. And please go over, find us. We're both under lit vibes only podcast and then it says Kelsey or Amanda. So pretty easy to follow. Yeah. And then of course just take a couple seconds to rate and review the podcast. We would really appreciate that. Yes, we would. And that just helps with like visibility and people finding us

Amanda 1:31

yeah, and I'll just talk on really quickly with Fable. It's not just to vote on the books that we read, it's to read along with us for our Litted or Acquitted episode. So we post the book that we're currently reading and you can read with us, share your insights, your predictions, your feedback. So it is a book club for those books. And then you can listen to the episode when we drop them and. Be fully in the know and have just read that book and had it fresh in your mind. I also wanna say this for people who are like, Ooh, I already read that book. Can I join the book club? Abso, absolutely. You don't have to be actively reading the book to join the book club. You can jump in and talk about the characters, the plot, what you thought about the book, even if you're not actively reading the book at that time. So don't let that stop you from hanging out with us in our Fable book clips.

Kelsey 2:19

Yeah. So new not new to me or Amanda, but new to the audience. Last episode, I let everybody know that I am pregnant and by this time I'll be like 20 or 21 weeks and I'm struggling still a little bit with nausea. And I'm over here gagging a little bit today, so hopefully we can make it through. This sucks. Any woman who has been through this it is rough out there, especially in the first trimester, but right now, currently, as we're recording, I'm like 16 weeks and it is still not going away. So I'm really hoping like this is like the last little bit of it. So pray for me please.

Amanda (2) 3:05

We Are gonna Talk about what we're currently reading before we get into our recommendations for this month. And as always, I feel like I'm either finishing a book or starting a book when we record these. And so I'm just about to start a book. That was recommended to me by my friend Anna. Hi Anna. I've mentioned Anna before on the podcast. It is called Strange Houses and it's by a Japanese author called tsu, I think I'm saying that but translated by Jim Ryan into English. And I'm super curious about this book because the mystery, it's a mystery. It is based on a series of like floor plans. And so it's not just text, it's also like visuals and using images to figure out what's going on and why. And so it's gonna be interesting reading this book on a Kindle'cause I won't be able to flip back and forth between the floor plans to try and put things together. So I'm going to see if I can pull them up somewhere online, but always excited for a book that's doing something a little bit different that I haven't seen before, especially in a genre that I really love. I'm excited to dive into it and read an international author. It's also really short, I think it's 200 pages, so something I can probably speed through pretty quickly, but that is what I'm getting into.

Kelsey 4:19

Last episode I mentioned that my reading has taken a big decline, especially in the, like last few weeks. That's for a variety of reasons, but partially because I'm pregnant and because I was telling Amanda last episode that even audio books are not like super easy for me to follow right now and understand. And so I do have one book waiting for me in Libby bl. It's the second book to oh my gosh, what's the first one called? Legend Born blood marked. And I am gonna start that at some point. I have 18 days left to read it. I just grabbed that one and we'll see. We'll see if I get into it soon.

Amanda 5:03

I am definitely excited to read it. I feel like I need to get into the second book for Children of Blood and Bone and yeah, the sequel to Legend Born. They've both been on my tbrs for a minute, but I keep on getting distracted by other things, which is why I don't like series'cause I just wanna keep on going to the next thing and coming back to something and refreshing my memory is always a bit tricky. But definitely want to get to that one as well. But this month we are once again celebrating Women's History Month, but as I've said before in previous Lit Recs episodes we don't wanna just repeat exactly what we did the year prior as we're hitting the same heritage months So yes, we're celebrating Women's History Month, but. Because it is Women's History Month, we wanted to specifically focus on women from history, and so we're celebrating all of the women who came before us. So the storytellers, the trailblazers, the rule breakers, and the quiet revolutionaries. Their lives and their voices shaped the world that we inhabit and we live in today. Oftentimes without recognition, which is so true for so many of our marginalized groups and oppressed groups in our society. So through books, history and Conversation, we are gonna be honoring some of those women whose legacies deserve to be remembered, read and shared. Some of these women you maybe have heard of, some of them you might not have. I know from my two books, one of them. Is a fictionalized account of a woman who is real, and then the second one is a nonfiction historical book. Very much charting exactly what happened with this woman and group of people that she was traveling with. So wanted to have a mix of both and really excited to share both of my books. They're both books that I've read and absolutely loved, and I'm excited to share them with you guys and hopefully you guys enjoy them just as much. So I'll start with my. First book. This was a book that I picked up right at the beginning of 2025 because it was released in January of 2025. So I pre-ordered it. I knew it was coming out. I was really excited to read it. And that Isola by Allegra Goodman. So a little bit about Allegra. She was born in Brooklyn, but actually grew up in Hawaii. Both of her parents were professors and were working at universities in Hawaii. And she was raised as a conservative Jew. And from what I could tell from additional research she still is very much a practicing Jew. And she and her husband, I think met, I wanna say, at some sort of. Religious organization gathering events. So that's actually how they met. Really cool thing about her mom since we're very much celebrating women this month. So her mom was a professor of genetics and women's studies and then went on to become the assistant vice president at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. So that's super cool and like kudos to her mom. It sounds like she had a great example in her mother. She herself, Allegra wrote and illustrated her first novel when she was just seven years old, so very much was writing from a very young age and was clear that was an interest of hers. She then went on to get her BA from Harvard in. Both English and philosophy and then got her PhD in English literature from Stanford. So just, yeah crushing it academically. Since, starting out as an author, she has published. 11 novels. And they include Ola, which I'm gonna be talking about today, which was a Reese's Book Club Selection, Sam, which was a read with Jenna Book Club Selection, the Chalk Artist, which was the winner of the Massachusetts Book Award. Intuition, the Cookbook Collector paradise Park, and Cater School Falls, which was a National Book Award finalist, and she just released a book. For us it's this month, February, but for you guys it'll be the prior month. And that novel is, this is Not About Us, so I'm excited to check out her newest work. She's also written many essays. And reviews, which have appeared in a number of publications, including The New York Times Book Review, the Wall Street Journal, the New Republic, the Washington Post. Boston Globe, and the American Scholar. So again, very widely published, and a pretty prolific writer in terms of awards and recognitions. She is the recipient of a Whiting Writers Award. The So Salon Award for fiction, and she has received fellowships from McDowell and the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study. Again, widely recognized, widely published author and as I mentioned, she's married. She lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts with her husband and has four. Grown children. So that's a little bit about Allegra. And then Isola, like I mentioned, was published, I guess I was wrong, not January of last year. February of last year. It's 346 pages. Has a four point one or 4.01 Good Reads rating. So pretty strong. And it was actually nominated last year for reader's favorite historical fiction. And I was really interested to pick this book up because obviously I love history, but I didn't know anything about this woman that this novel was based on. And it's about a 16th century French Noble woman named Margarite de Laro. I don't speak French, so probably butchered that. But essentially her story is that she. Was a noble woman. She was orphaned at a young age, and because of that, she was put in the care of a guardian who, which was very common back then, decided to basically take her inheritance and do whatever he wanted with. It, investing it in different things, splurging on different things. And he was someone who was very interested in exploration of the new world.'cause again, this is the 16th century, so the 15 hundreds, and at that time, France, along with a lot of other countries, was looking to explore and colonize the new world. So he ends up taking her on one of his voyages to New France, which is now Canada. And on that trip, she ends up. Falling in love with a servant, which you know, very much looked down upon at that time. And as punishment for having this affair'cause it quickly comes to light. She and her lover are stranded on an island and just left there die. And this is not a spoiler because this is historical fact. She does survive. And so this story is about how she survived and, it's great. It's a great story. It's about survival and love and faith and defiance and all of these really amazing things. And when you read the book, it's just shocking that she was able to survive given the way that she was raised. This isn't someone who was like a pioneer woman who was raised knowing how to cook and clean and survive and hunt. She was a cuddled rich girl who was able to survive long enough on this island in the harsh. Canadian wilderness, essentially long enough to get rescued. So it's a great book. Again, a story that you probably won't have encountered other places about this woman. And yeah, also just beautifully written like Allegro Goodman is just a stellar author. So that's my first one.

Kelsey 12:41

Is Isola the name of the island or is that the name of the woman?

Amanda 12:45

No, her name's Marguerite. I think Isola just means

Kelsey 12:48

oh yeah. Okay.

Amanda 12:49

I think it just means isolated

Kelsey 12:52

in French or what language,

Amanda 12:54

maybe I, I do not speak French. I would assume so. I can it up, but

Kelsey 12:59

I was just curious about the the title.

Amanda 13:02

Yeah.

Kelsey 2.0 13:03

Yeah, y'all, I am struggling over here. I am trying to make it through. We shall see. Okay, my first book I'm actually going to do the second one that I have in here because it's a story that was written from folks in Australia and a lot of Aboriginal folks. And I looked up all of the pronunciations of the names, but, I feel like I'll forget them after time. I've probably forgotten some anyway, but I will do my best. So I'm so happy I came across this book because it's very unique and nothing like I've I've read before. And I wanted to highlight it here. This book is called a Piece of Red Cloth, and it actually has four different authors. And the first author's name is Leoni Norrington. And this is the person that like wrote the actual book with the support of, oh gosh, this one was a hard one. Marin Meke. It doesn't look exactly like it, or it doesn't sound exactly like it looks Mary. Oh my gosh. I'm butchering it, but I will try meke it. I'm not pronouncing it correctly, but GaN bar Stubbs. And this person is a again, another pronunciation, Linga cultural custodian, and he's an elder. Whose family community histories form the basis of the stories in the book. And so this person brought like the cultural relevance to the story which is so unique and great to see because oftentimes that doesn't happen. This partnership between those who are holders of stories from like the indigenous or aboriginal, communities another elder that was a contributor is JWA Bra Barga. Another contributor of the oral history, oral histories of this community. And then the next author Ja, one deal. My Murray, I don't know. I don't know. I'm having such a hard time. My Moru another custodian and storyteller of the ancestral histories of their community. Again, a co-author of the work and collaborated in shaping the book's narrative. Specifically from the people's, like oral history, oral tradition, and like cultural knowledge. And so I loved seeing that collaboration with this author in making this book and piece of work possible. So it's very cool. And both of my books that I'm highlighting have really high ratings on good reads. This book also is very new, was published the same year and month as Amanda's first book February, 2025. It is 384 pages. It has a 4.28 rating on good rates. Excuse me. And it's a historical novel, like grounded in the Olga oral history about life in Northeast. Arn land in the late 16 hundreds before like white settler settlement came to Australia. And it is about a young girl being kidnapped from her people by Dutch settlers and how they work as a community to get her back from her captors. And this was specifically, inspired by a similar thing happening back in the 16 hundreds from their, like oral history. And the narrative is based on real oral traditions passed down through generations and. Like I said, including like stories of a girl kidnapped by traitors and settlers. It also includes mystical and spiritual elements grounded in the people's history. As an expression of the cultural, like worldview. And I love that piece because that's also something that I experience within my own culture is oftentimes people think it's just a fantasy. But some of these things are reality for the peoples of these cultures. And so I love the way that, brought that together. Again, it's like this unique cross-cultural collaboration between the yolana, cultural custodians and like a non-indigenous author. Ensuring respect and authenticity of the story. And yeah, it's a new book, which I was like really surprised. That it was newer, but I'm just so happy that ex it exists and it's highlighting women's perspective from back in the 16 hundreds before like settlers were in Australia and as they were making their way to Australia. So a story that I think does not get highlighted often enough.

Amanda 18:28

Yeah, that sounds fascinating. And I feel especially in the United States, we don't learn much about aboriginal history. Yeah. Australian history and so I am very appreciative, especially that, as a, you mentioned that the author's non-indigenous, but mm-hmm. It looks like up here it says that they're from the Barunga community. So are they, is it just because they're from a different tribe? Is that

Kelsey 18:53

potentially.

Amanda 18:54

Hold on. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But either way, whether they're indigenous or not, I think it's always important if you're gonna tell a story, especially a story that's based on fact and not fiction, that you are very much doing it in collaboration with the people whose stories you're telling. She

Kelsey 19:12

grew up among Aboriginal people. Okay.

Amanda 19:15

Okay.

Kelsey 19:16

Mm-hmm.

Amanda 19:16

Yeah. So kudos to her for doing that versus just being like, oh, I lived with them and I have enough knowledge, to write this story. Yeah.'Cause I think, yeah, that's obviously an issue that comes up a lot in the publishing world and the writing world. Like who gets to tell what stories we've talked about that previously on other episodes. And I'm glad that she took the time to. Yeah, let them share their oral traditions and she's essentially writing them down and putting them into this narrative.

Kelsey 19:40

Mm-hmm.

Amanda (2) 19:40

Okay. I'll have to check that one out'cause it's very much, in my preferred genres and I also spent time living in Australia, so that's very cool. Okay, so my second book, it is historical nonfiction. So again, another genre that I really like and try to sprinkle throughout my year, my reading year. This book is The Indifferent Stars Above the Harrowing Saga of a Donner Party Bride by Daniel James Brown. Daniel James Brown. A little bit about him. He is an American author who writes narrative nonfiction books. He's from this side of the country, so born and raised in California, specifically in. The Bay Area. He also, like with my previous author, Allegra, earned his BA in English from uc, Berkeley, and then went on to get an MA from UCLA. And then he actually currently lives here, right outside of Seattle and was given an honorary doctorate by the University of Washington in 2024. And in addition to, being a writer he started off teaching writing actually at San Jose State University and also Stanford before becoming a technical writer and editor. And then from there he ventured into becoming a full-time author of narrative nonfiction and has. Now published four books. His first book, which I actually just got from Libby yesterday and I'm really excited to check out, is Under a Flaming Sky and that was published in 2006. And it tells the story of the Great Hinkley Fire in Minnesota, which is like this forest fire that just got out of control. And apparently what happened there is one of the reasons why our current forest service. Handles forest fires the way that they do now because of everything that went wrong back then. And actually one of the victims of the fire was his great-grandfather. And so he was able to find some like old newspaper clippings, et cetera, from this incident in his family's archives and that inspired him to write this book. And then he went ENT read a bunch of other books, so he wrote The Boys in the Boat, which a lot of people know because it was made into a movie a couple of years ago in 2023, and is also a number one New York Times bestseller. And that is about a group of young men here in Seattle at the University of Washington a group of rowers who went on all the way up and made it to the Olympics. Very much the underdog. So it's a great story. And then he wrote Facing the Mountain, which is about Japanese Americans during World War ii, here in the United States, and their experience both being sent to, the internment camps on our soil, and also Japanese American men who went off to fight for our country. And then the different stars above, which I'm gonna talk about in just a second. His books have won a lot of different awards and recognitions, including. The Washington State Book Award for nonfiction and the Andies Choice adult nonfiction book of the year from the a BA, the American Booksellers Association. As I said, he currently lives right outside of Seattle in the country with his wife and his dog, Quincy. This book, and you might have picked up on a theme with. Most of his books, except for the first one, they all take place primarily on the West Coast. This book was published in April of 2009. It's 352 pages. Again, another really strong Good reads rating at 4.25. And I was going to like, write my own little summary of the book, but I really liked the book jacket. Description, so I'm just gonna read that to you. It'll give you a really good sense of what this book is about. So it says, in April of 18 46, 20 1-year-old Sarah Graves intent on a Better Future set out West from Illinois with her new husband. Her parents and eight siblings. Seven months later, after joining a party of immigrants led by George Donner, they reached the Sierra Nevada Mountains just as the first heavy snows of the season. Closed the pass ahead of them. In early December, starving and desperate Sarah and 14 others set up for California on snowshoes, and over the next 32 days, endured almost unfathomable. Unfathomable hardships and horrors and that it's exactly that. It's one of those stories that you get to the end of it and you're like, I can't believe anyone actually survived any of that and lived to tell the tale. But again, it is very much telling her story. So even though there's a group of them, it's very much focused on Sarah's story and her experience. I personally had never heard of this event until I read this book, but apparently I found out after the fact that a lot of students in California, this is like part of California history, and so a lot of students learn about it there. One of the things that I really. Loved about this book and it's one reason why I also like Eric Larson, who also writes historical nonfiction, is that both Daniel James Brown and Eric Larson do such a stellar job of taking what could be a very kind of dry story, a dry historical nonfiction. Event. And they bring it to life. Like it very much reads like a novel. It very much reads in some ways like fiction. And I love when historical nonfiction authors can bridge that gap.'cause I think some people are like, oh, this is gonna feel like reading a history textbook, and it's very much not that. So I thoroughly enjoyed it. My jaw hit the floor multiple times. I still think about this book on the regular because it was just such an insane. Story, I still do not understand how the people who

Amanda 25:22

survived,

Amanda (2) 25:22

survived. And I'm excited to keep reading his work. I'd forgotten not about the book, but about him. It's oh yeah, he wrote more stuff. I can read more of his stuff. So I'm excited to read under a Flaming Sky in the next couple of weeks, and I hope, I love it just as much.

Kelsey 25:36

Very cool. Who was, didn't you, did you say it was, his name was Eric Larson, the other author? Yeah.

Amanda 25:41

Mm-hmm.

Kelsey 25:41

Was there another book that you recommended by him?

Amanda 25:45

I mean I've these

Kelsey 25:46

episodes.

Amanda 25:46

I mean I read The Devil in The White City most recently on the pod or and talked about on the podcast. Okay. Which is about the World's Fair and like the serial killer. Yeah. That was operating around the same time. Yeah.

Kelsey 25:57

No, I think

25:57

I

Kelsey 25:57

remember

Amanda 25:58

that. Yeah, it's really good.

Kelsey 26:00

It's so interesting how people can make nonfiction work, like work like that.

Amanda 26:04

Yeah. Some people can, and some people you're reading like, this is so boring and I just.

Kelsey 26:09

I

Amanda 26:09

feel like I'm in school again.

Kelsey 26:10

Absolutely. Amanda, my second recommendation is right up your alley.

Amanda 26:18

I know. I saw it and I was like, yep, this is,

Kelsey 26:20

have you read this book? I have not. Oh, okay. So this is Yellow Wife by cic. Oh God. Sadeka Johnson. It is a very popular book. And I was really looking for stories that are unique and stories that haven't necessarily been highlighted a ton. And the author, she's from Philadelphia but now lives in Virginia. So she's from the East side, east Coast. She is a New York Times bestselling author of six novels. And interestingly enough, she started as a romance. Writer Oh. And then transitioned into historical fiction. She moved in the right direction. That's like such a interesting. Trajectory. But I'm curious about her romance novels. Yeah. Yeah. She often writes about love betrayal, like motherhood, colorism and social power, and has been praised for being emotionally gripping. Immersive and unflinching. Okay. Not romanticizing history, but humanizing it. And her most recent novel is Keeper of Lost Children, which was just released. From our perspective recording right now, last week in January. Nice. Yeah getting into the novel called Yellow Wife it's historical fiction published in 2020 2021. Sorry, I, there was like an incorrect thing I was looking at. I wanted to make sure that I had it right here. It's 2021. It has a 4.43 Good reads rating.

Amanda 28:01

Wow,

Kelsey 28:02

that is insane. It is insane. It's so high and only is 278 pages.

Amanda 28:09

Oh,

Kelsey 28:10

you can believe it. Pretty, it's very short. All right. And the story is based on the real person, Mary Lumpkin's life and is set in Virginia. And similar to you, Amanda. I'm gonna read I haven't read this book, but I'm gonna read the, like little synopsis of the book here. Born on a Plantation in Charles City, Virginia. Phoebe Brown was promised her freedom on her 18th birthday, but when her birthday finally comes around, instead of the idyllic life she was hoping for with her true love, she finds herself thrust into the bowels of slavery at the end. Infamous Devil's Half Acre, A jail where slaves are broken, tortured, and sold every day, forced to become the mistress of the brutal man who owns the jail. Phoebe faces the ultimate sacrifice to protect her heart in this powerful, thrilling story of one slave, fight for freedom. And Oprah Magazine. Had it highlighted. I don't think it was like a, a book club book, but I think that's partially why it's also popular. It's when those people get ahold of it, endorse it. Yeah. Yeah. The book won the NPR R'S Best Book of the Year Pick in 2021, and is the winner of the Library of Virginia's 2022 Literary People's Choice Award. I don't understand why there's so many awards and why, like where they, I feel like they just can come out of nowhere and like the names of them could be mm-hmm. 10 words long and it's so interesting. Such, it seems very arbitrary

Amanda 29:48

sometimes.

Kelsey 29:49

But anyway, I felt like that was something I would even be interested in reading, obviously. Oh, really? I feel like this would be

Amanda 29:56

too dark for you.

Kelsey 29:57

Yeah, no, I think it would, it definitely would be one of those books where it's like, oh, right place, right time. But I would be, yeah.

Amanda 30:06

Oh, okay.

Kelsey 30:06

Interested.

Amanda 30:07

I'm definitely interested. I'm definitely gonna add some of her books to my TBR after this episode for sure. I,

Kelsey 30:13

yeah.

Amanda 30:14

Looked up like earlier.'cause I saw that you were gonna do this book. Yeah. Um, Some information about Mary Lumpkin,'cause she does obviously take some Oh yeah. Creative liberties with the story, so it's not like word for word what happened because in, in actuality, Mary Lumpkin. Was not 18. She was 13 when she gave birth to her first kid with this guy. Oh my God. Who was 27 years older than her. So yeah, she was obviously raped. Ended up having I think seven kids with him. But the interesting thing is that he ended up marrying her and left all of his property to her. And so definitely a little bit of a twist. Not something you normally saw back then. Yeah. And a university ended up getting built on that land where the Devil's half Acre used to be. And so in some ways it had a quote unquote happy ending. But yeah the story itself is like definitely. Darker in terms of like how old she was when this all happened. Yes.'cause here she's 18, right? This Phoebe Brown is. But yeah, I think these all sound like excellent choices. I'll quickly recap mine. My first book was Isola by Allegra Goodman, and then my second book was The Indifferent Stars Above by Daniel James Brown.

Kelsey 31:26

And mine was Yellow Wife by Sika Johnson, and then a piece of red cloth by the four different authors.

Amanda 31:34

Yes, we won't get into the whole list again. But yeah, as always, these episodes are just meant as a way to expand you're reading and offer you some suggestions as to was to both celebrate this specific month. That we're in, but also just to find some, perhaps windows for you to look through as you're reading and gain a better understanding of people who might be outside of your own lived experience. As always, we really wanna hear from you guys and what recommendations you might have. For books that celebrate women from history, and one of the ways that you can share that information with us is on our socials. So if you're not already, please make sure that you're following us on Instagram at Lit Vibes Only podcast, or on YouTube or TikTok at Lit Vibes only podcast. You can follow up, comment, and subscribe on all of those places. It's a great way to connect with us and share your thoughts and feedback. You can also find us on Fable. I'm at Lit Vibes only Amanda and Kelsey's at Lit Vibes only Kelsey. So plenty of ways to connect to read books with us to share your thoughts and give us book recommendations for what we should cover on the podcast. And of course, most importantly, if you still have not rated and reviewed our podcast at this point, I truly dunno why. I promise you when I say that it takes. Two seconds to hit that five star button, and if you're feeling extra generous with your time, you could also just write a sentence or two saying how much you're enjoying this podcast, this episode on either Apple Podcast or on Spotify. So we'd appreciate it so much if you could take the time to do that. We will be posting on Thursday these four books just as a reminder of what they are. And so you can favorite that and save it so you can come back and reference it. But we're so glad that you joined us today, and we will see you next Monday.